October 24, 2023 • 26 mins
What if the key to a highly profitable business lies in the engagement and happiness of its employees?
This question is at the heart of our enlightening conversation with our esteemed guest, international author, speaker, and award-winning coach, Kon Apostolopoulos.
Throughout our discussion, we dive headfirst into the seas of engagement, using Coach Kon's decade-long experience with a construction company as the compass to navigate these often turbulent waters.
The episode is ripe with practical examples and strategies shared by Coach Kon to tackle the evergreen challenge of disengagement.
He illuminates the four essential drivers for engagement and how leaders can foster them in the workplace, from transparent communication to aligning people and business plans.
Join us for this insightful exploration, and you'll walk away equipped with tools to create an environment where employees are not just engaged but thriving.
To learn more about Coach Kon and his work, visit:
Website: https://www.freshbizsolutions.com/
Assessment Tool: https://www.freshbizsolutions.com/assessment-tool
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachkon/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Pelè (00:00):
Hello happy people.
Welcome to the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr Pelèwith the Profitable Happiness
Podcast, and today it is mypleasure for a second time to be
speaking with someone I justlove to learn from Han of
(00:20):
Postilopolis.
How are you doing today, han?
Kon Apostolopoulos (00:24):
Dr Pelè, I am wonderful, I am in great
company with you and I am soexcited to be here with you
together again.
Dr. Pelè (00:31):
Oh, it's awesome.
Now, Kon, you are aninternational author and speaker
.
You're an award-winning coach.
You're an in-person and virtualfacilitator of results and
organizations.
But you want to know what myfavorite thing is that you do?
You are a soccer coach.
I just love the idea that youuse teaching and coaching even
(00:54):
with your soccer students, andit's the same methodologies that
you use there that you've putinto organizations.
We want to learn more aboutthat, but before we get started,
tell us the problems that youaddress in organizations.
What are the core challengesthat you see over and over again
?
Kon Apostolopoulos (01:10):
Well, Dr.
Pelè, thank you.
That's a wonderful question,because the reason I founded my
organization, my company FreshBiz Solutions, was because when
I work with my clients, Irealize that they spend a lot of
time, money, resources,brainpower developing these
wonderful business plans.
But what happens is, if theydon't have the right people in
(01:32):
the right place to make theseplans become real, they're not
worth the paper they're writtenon.
So my job is to be able to comein and basically using my
framework and 30 years ofexperience in the field, to be
able to help them develop apipeline of leaders that are
ready and willing to be able toexecute those plans, leaders
that are fully engaged andcommitted to really make sure
(01:55):
that the company can succeed.
But they can also succeedwithin the company, and
sometimes that looks likeworkshops, leadership
development workshops,potentially, or skill
development workshops.
Sometimes that looks likeone-on-one or group coaching
with executives and emergingleaders.
Sometimes it's tailored eventsthat we have to put together to
get people on the same page, tobuild camaraderie and team and
(02:19):
ultimately it's all about makingsure that we have a people plan
and systems in place thatsupport and manage the business
plans and strategies.
So every dollar that my clientsspent are a dollar well spent
and focused on the right things.
Dr. Pelè (02:35):
Wow, and you have a book coming up which I mean the
topic is just like.
It's so important.
You're calling this book theengagement blueprint and I hope
we can talk more about that.
But I just want to say why isit that engagement continues to
be a problem year in, year out?
We hear of Gallup's polls.
(02:55):
They never change.
Nobody's moving the needle.
Why is this such a challenge,and what made you think of
writing this book along thoselines?
Kon Apostolopoulos (03:04):
Well, coming out of the pandemic, coming out
of one of the most globalcrises that we've faced as
humanity in a long, long time,we all realized that the
workplaces had changed in waysthat we hadn't even figured out
yet.
Everybody was looking at thesemassive numbers, millions
quitting their jobs and goingoff and trying to find different
(03:28):
ways of finding themselves,looking at things that matter to
the most the great resignation,as we called it.
But what people weren't payingattention to was the fact that
underneath that, there was anunderlying gap, a problem with
engagement.
For the first time in a decade,engagement numbers actually
reversed trend and they werefewer people engaged than the
(03:51):
year before.
But that in itself wasn't thebiggest problem.
The biggest problem was thedisengaged people.
The percentage of disengagedemployees was growing steadily
year over year, to the pointwhere those same Gallup reports
found that only one in fivepeople across the globe were
actually engaged.
(04:11):
So think about this If you havefive people that are rowing a
boat, Dr.
Pelè, and only one of them isactually paddling, three of them
are just along for the sceneryon the ride collecting a
paycheck, and there is that oneperson at the back of the boat
that's poking holes in it,trying to sink that boat
actively.
Think about what's happening toyour business Now.
(04:33):
When Gallup did the samereports and other companies
followed and did some research,they found that in the United
States alone last year the costof lost productivity was $350
billion billion with a B andwhen you project that out on the
(04:54):
global stage it becomes $7.8trillion.
That's lost productivity fromthe out-engagement gap that
we're talking about.
That's a problem.
Dr. Pelè (05:06):
Yes, that is a huge challenge and we've talked about
this before, but I would lovefor you to connect the dots for
us on how you became the guidefor the leaders who have to deal
with this problem.
What is your story?
How did you become Khan?
Kon Apostolopoulos (05:26):
Well.
So to put it in context, so Irealized that, as I was looking
at this problem, the work thatI've been doing with my clients
over the last three decades havepositioned me, in a way, to
understand more and more aboutit.
So I realized that I knew moreabout this than most people
because I've been applying theseskills and engaging my clients,
(05:47):
workforce, people at theindividual, at the leader level,
at the executive level,throughout those years to make a
difference.
So I'll give you one specificexample.
I worked with a client that isa company, a large scale
construction company, and it'sone of four divisions, and with
that group I've been workingwith them now for about a decade
(06:08):
.
And when we hit the greatrecession, the great resignation
now and we had the problemseven before then with the
pandemic and everything else,and these people were trying to
get back to a place of normalcywhat they realized is that they
weren't struggling the way theircounterparts in the other
(06:29):
regions or even theircompetitors in this market were.
We didn't lose any of our Aplayers.
We lost some people, but theyweren't our best and brightest
from the group and our numbers,our performance numbers,
continued to far exceed those ofour competition, and what we
realized is that the work thatwe had done had prepared us, had
(06:51):
created a culture wherecommitment and performance were
given freely and at high levelsby the employees.
They felt that their needs werebeing met.
They didn't need to lookelsewhere, they didn't need to
go find themselves somewhereelse, because everything that
they were looking for was rightthere, and so that, to me,
(07:12):
sparked the thought if I canmake that work with a company of
this size, if I can make itwork with my little kids on the
soccer field which is the sameprinciples and we can create
winning teams, we can createchampions.
What is that secret formula?
So I did my research, I lookedat the numbers, I looked at
information from Gallup, fromHarvard, from Deloitte, from
(07:35):
McKenzie, from a lot of othertrusted sources that we have,
and what I found is it validatedall of the findings that I had
from the work that I've beendoing and from that core, I
discovered that there are fourkey drivers, four needs that
people have that are human needs, not just employee needs, but
they are human needs that, asleaders, we need to make sure
(07:58):
that our environment, theworkplace that we are creating,
can meet those needs if we wantour people to be committed and
successful.
Dr. Pelè (08:06):
You know it's interesting.
If I put myself in the positionof someone hearing this, I'm
going to be like tell me thosefour drivers now, now I want to
hear them.
Because the truth is I soresonate with your path.
You know I have something on mywall that says a leader is one
who knows the way, goes the wayand shows the way.
(08:28):
What you're talking about isfrom personal experience.
This is not theory.
This is sure.
You validated things and youdid your literary research and
you understand that there's abody of knowledge around this.
But you've walked this walk and, given that, could you just
give us a sense of how you solvethese problems, as you describe
(08:50):
it in your book and as yourfour step model describes it?
How do you solve these problems?
Kon Apostolopoulos (08:56):
Well, let's take a look at that.
So let's start off with thefour drivers themselves.
What are those needs thatpeople need to satisfy for them
to be engaged?
Well, the first need is theneed to be valued.
We all want to feel valued andappreciated in our workplace, in
our lives in general.
We all seek that.
We all seek an environmentwhere leaders can create that
(09:18):
safe space where people can feelvalued, where they can express
their appreciation, where theycan show respect to their team
members, not just because ofanything else, but because they
are there, they are part of theteam, and then extend that
respect and that gratitude aseach one of these people start
performing at a higher level.
(09:39):
And when you recognize thosethings, people make the
connection and people realizethat you know what?
Hey, I'm appreciated here,because people that are
appreciated will always give youmore than what's expected.
So that's one thing, one keydriver that we have.
The second one is we have verytribal creatures.
We are creatures that want tobelong, that want to be part of
(10:01):
something.
So connection is very, veryimportant in work and when we
feel like we're part of a team,when we are connected to our
peers, we are connected to ourleaders.
We are connected to the goalsthat we share and I can feel
that connection.
I'm going to give more.
I'm going to be able to offermyself because I'm supporting
(10:21):
something bigger than me.
I mean, I asked my clients andI asked friends.
I said imagine that I just gaveyou a group photo, something
that we had, from a weekend thatwe spent together.
It's the first thing that you'regoing to do.
You're going to look foryourself in that picture.
You're going to see where do Ifit into this picture?
And so people want to knowwhat's that connection between
(10:45):
me and everybody else, or thebigger picture.
And from that, once we makethat connection evident to
people and allow them to belongto our team, they will give us
more.
And then we take that to thethird piece, which is people
want to feel that they aremaking a difference and they're
contributing in meaningful ways,that they can be productive.
(11:07):
So the work, the effort thatthey're putting into things has
a purpose, has a reason, justlike we talked about with that
picture that connection to thebigger, to the bigger piece and
understanding how does my workcontribute to the success of the
team, to the success of theorganization, how is it making a
difference in our communities?
(11:28):
And a lot of people think thatbeing feeling productive,
feeling like you're contributing, always is associated with
money.
That's not.
There is an element there goingback to the feeling value.
For anybody that's worked withvolunteers or you've been a
volunteer, you can relate to thefact that when you're
passionate about something, whenyou know that what you're doing
is contributing in meaningfulways.
(11:48):
You don't care about how muchyou're making, because that is
such a powerful driver, as longas in our professional lives,
for example, that we feel likewe're being rewarded equitably
for what we're doing.
We seek more in order to givemore.
And then, finally, the fourthdriver, dr Pelé, is the need
(12:08):
that we all have to continue tolearn and grow the feeling that
we have that we are supported inour efforts, that we are
mentored, that we are coached,that there is a path for us
within the organization to haveprogression, to seek areas that
we can go beyond where we aretoday.
If we are stagnant, that'sdemoralizing.
(12:29):
If we see no light, no future,how can you engage in a place
and commit yourself long-term?
But if you have a path that youcan see yourself thriving and
growing and learning andcontinuing to feel challenged,
you want to be part of that.
So those are the four drivers,the four needs that we have to
meet the need to feel valued,the need to feel connected, the
(12:52):
need to feel productive and theneed to feel supported.
When leaders can find ways,simple ways, strategies to be
able to address that, then theyhave a winning formula to be
able to engage their people,they can create and build a
culture where people can feelcommitted and performance will
rise to the top.
Dr. Pelè (13:13):
You mentioned earlier.
I think that in your book, aswell as in your practice, you
essentially provide tools andstrategies for building a
workplace culture that'sthriving, that implements these
four needs.
You focus specifically onleaders because, as we all know,
(13:34):
the fish stinks from the headdown.
So if you don't get it right atthe leadership, you get it
right anywhere else.
Give us some examples of thetools and strategies.
I know that you've talked aboutworkshops and different things.
Give us some examples ofexactly how you implement these
four drivers and organizations.
Kon Apostolopoulos (13:53):
Let's take a look at that.
So when we're building theleadership skills of the people
that will make the changes tothat environment.
There are four areas that Ifocus on my framework, if you
will, that matches up and tiesso well with these four drivers.
So those four areas are, forexample, when I can build
(14:14):
competence in my team and in theindividuals, in my leaders, I
can develop their skills, theirknowledge, their abilities and
then I partner that withcoaching and mentoring.
That helps enhance thatcommitment.
I build competence, I buildcommitment.
In other words, I show peoplehow they can do the job and I
(14:34):
work with them so they want todo the job.
That in itself helps establishthe value, because then they can
go out and establish the valuepiece and I work with people on
their commitment individuallybut then I work with them as a
group on teamwork, on buildingconnections, on building all of
those things.
(14:54):
I really meet that need ofconnection and of belonging
together, feeling part of abigger team.
On the other side, we talkedabout the competence through
those workshops but also withthe people systems in place.
Some people know that they'renot just learning, but they're
learning with a purpose toenhance their career, to enhance
their productivity.
(15:15):
That's how you meet that nextneed of productivity and
contribution.
And ultimately, when you pairup the systems and the teamwork
element together, now you havepeople thriving in a transparent
way, working together toachieve their goals of growth,
of learning and success as anorganization.
So four areas, four pillarsthat I use in my framework match
(15:37):
up so well with these fourdrivers that people need to be
successful and engaged.
Dr. Pelè (15:43):
I can't wait to read the book because already I'm
like, wow, I can see the maphere.
I've got the mind map ready togo to implement these things.
You have a saying that you loveto use.
You like to say that the grassis not greener.
On the other side, the grass isgreener where you water it.
By the way, I love that.
I asked you if you wrote thatbecause you got a copy right,
(16:05):
but you said you did not, so I'mlike eh.
Kon Apostolopoulos (16:09):
Yeah, and I'm not sure.
I'm not sure where it came from.
But I can't take credit for it,but I love using it, as I
explained to people that that isultimately the essence, the
spirit of the work that I'vebeen doing for 30 years and
everything that I've put intothis book.
A lot of my clients strugglewith that.
They're looking and saying whycan't I retain good people?
(16:30):
Why am I struggling with that?
Because that's the greatestfear that leaders, that business
owners have, that employershave.
They feel like they'reinvesting, they're contributing
to their people, but they don'tfeel like they're getting much
back.
They feel like their people areabandoning them for a couple of
dollars more an hour or a bumpin a salary or something else,
(16:51):
and they're going down thestreet and they are worried,
they are frustrated because theyfeel like they're committing
but they don't get that samelevel of commitment back from
their people.
Now, in all fairness, those samepeople are not getting their
needs met.
So I will tell the same thingto the leaders that I would tell
to the employees and to theteam members.
(17:11):
Understand this the grass isn'tgreener on the other side.
The grass is greener where youwater it.
Take time to cultivate yourgarden, leaders.
Take time to meet thoseengagement needs that your
people have.
Make sure they feel valued,make sure they feel connected,
make sure they feel productiveand make sure they feel
(17:32):
supported and for individuals.
Take the time to recognize whatyou can do with those four
drivers and how you can findways to get your needs met.
Dr. Pelè (17:42):
Yeah, you know, in my world, in my analogy, in fact in
my book, that I've just writtenwhat you're calling water it,
meaning keep the grass green.
I call build habits Because, ifyou think about it, any behavior
can become a habit, whetherit's a good behavior, good
habits or bad behaviors.
(18:02):
Bad habits and, as you say yougot as a leader, you have to
help your team or yourorganization focus on those good
things and behaviors andculture that you want to grow in
an organization.
You know, I would love to knowhow you use your model and your
(18:23):
methodologies and tools andstrategies to tie toward the
idea of employee happiness.
And I'll tell you why.
I know that your focus is onleaders.
I mean, that's where you start.
But ultimately you're buildingcultures which will involve
employees, and I think you wouldagree with me that there's a
classic problem there's leaderswho want profit they want
(18:44):
profitable organizations andemployees who want engagement
and happiness and well-being,and it's like can we get these
two things to happen at the sametime profitable happiness,
right, how does your methodologyhelp to promote happy employees
and profitable businesses?
Kon Apostolopoulos (19:04):
Well, very much the same way that you do
with your work over the yearsand now with your book and your
podcast and your messaging andall of the tools that you use
that serve so many of us.
Dr Pillai, you've demystifiedthat concept.
People think that profitablecompanies, happy employees or
engaged employees are at twoopposite ends of the spectrum,
that they can't coexist.
(19:25):
You and I both know that thatis a myth that we can debunk.
We can create the kind ofenvironment where we can create
not just the win-win for theemployers and the employees, but
also a win-win-win for thepeople that they serve, and be
able to go above and beyond that.
The way that we do that issimply by ensuring that people
(19:47):
can see that their goals, theirindividual goals, can be met
while supporting theorganizational goals, that those
two things don't have to beseparate.
When I look at it and I go likeyou do, we call it happiness a
lot of times with employees, butI know that your work goes much
deeper than just thesuperficial happiness, because
(20:09):
I've seen situations whereemployees can be very happy in
what they're doing and ignorethe customer, ignore what the
team is trying to do.
They find happiness untothemselves and guess what?
They kick off early although goand they'll watch things on
their computer while they're atwork time and do other things to
make themselves happy.
Look, guess what Deeperhappiness comes from that
(20:31):
connection that we talked about,about being able to know that
you're making a difference andthat the time that you dedicate
is time well spent.
When people realize that andalign though themselves with
those shared goals, that's whencompany's performance increases
in all areas and that's how theybecome profitable.
The same philosophy that youapproach from your profitable
(20:55):
happiness model is the same waythat I approach it showing both
sides that they can reach theirgoals without sacrificing, but
rather working together andcollaborating to find those
common grounds.
Dr. Pelè (21:09):
Let's say we have some skeptics listening to you and
they go, wow, sounds good, butwhat are the common mistakes
that I, as a leader, might makewhen trying to get my employees
to be happy to be engaged?
What are some common mistakesthat they should watch out for
so that, when they'reimplementing these things, they
feel more confident?
Kon Apostolopoulos (21:30):
Well, some simple examples.
One of them, for example, ismaking decisions for the
employees without asking them,trying to implement something
that you don't even know if yourpeople care about.
I mean, how many times have youseen people companies promoting
these kegs in the break room,or foosball tables in the
hallway, or pizza parties?
At some point, people get tiredof that.
(21:51):
You know what they're frat daysand they're sorority days are
over.
They want something moremeaningful than that.
Or leaders that think that justbecause they did something once
, that that's enough.
Well, zigg Ziggler used to saythat motivation, engagement,
happiness these are things thatare intrinsic and require effort
beyond just once.
(22:12):
It's like bathing One time isnot enough.
You got to do things moresystematically and purposefully.
They don't have a strategy.
Often they don't tie theirapproach, their people planned,
to their business plan.
Those two things need to bealigned.
These are just simple thingsthat we can quickly resolve when
we look at them and say, okay,you're spending the money anyway
(22:34):
.
Let's make sure that thatdollar that you spend, that euro
, that yen, whatever it is, iswell spent and it's targeted on
areas that are going to make abigger impact on you.
Dr. Pelè (22:45):
Wow, love that.
Well, can I tell us about whenthis book is coming out and what
other things you're doing topromote it?
Do you have some things we needto get a copy of, and how can
we get ahold of you online?
Kon Apostolopoulos (22:59):
Wonderful questions, so thank you for that
.
Let's first of all talk aboutthe book.
So the Labor of Love, which isthis book unlike my first book,
which, you know, with Dr Eley,we wrote the Seven Keys to
Navigating a Crisis In the startof the pandemic we wrote that
in 45 days and published it.
That was a record, wow.
This time I've taken the longway around the long journey, and
(23:21):
there's an African proverb thatyou are probably very familiar
with that says if you want to gofast, go alone yes.
If you want to go far, gotogether, yes.
So, because I'm hoping thatthis message will travel well
and far, I've decided to gotogether and I've been going
(23:41):
along the way.
I've been inviting people intothe journey, sharing milestones
along the way, sharing to agrowing community of people that
have come along for the ride,that are contributing and
sharpening this thoughtleadership and challenging, like
you have, my thoughts.
How does this make sense?
Why would it make sense?
When can we apply it?
Does it apply across the board?
(24:04):
And having the opportunity tointerview with people and asking
experts in the field that areglobal leaders of global brands
what's happening, how have theyapplied these principles.
It's been a long journey, andit's been a journey that I've
welcomed and I've learned somuch from it.
So the book is going to comeout early 2024.
So in the coming year lateJanuary, early February I'm
(24:28):
hoping to have it out in printand you are going to be one of
the first people that I'll besending a copy to my friend.
Yes, and getting it out to you,but in the meantime, I invite
you and our listeners to becomepart of this growing community,
this family, this connectedgroup of thought leaders and
shaping the message so we canall grow together and partake in
(24:49):
this journey.
So I'll provide a lot of thatinformation.
But where people can find me is, first and foremost, for those
that are on LinkedIn.
They can find me under coachcon K O N.
I spell it with a K instead ofa C for obvious reasons, because
it's hard to get people totrust you when you spell con
with a C.
Dr. Pelè (25:09):
Got it, coach K O N, there you go.
Kon Apostolopoulos (25:13):
And then my website has a number of
different resources for peopleFresh biz, b I Z solutionscom.
They can find me there.
They can find more informationand a gift for your audience
right off the back Dr Pelle is,I will send.
I will like to include a linkto our engagement assessment
(25:33):
where they can go in and answersome very simple questions and
get a sense of where thestrengths of their team right
now, what areas which one ofthese drivers is strong within
their team and perhaps wherethey might need to pay some
extra attention to, so that'llget them started and get them
thinking and start the processof truly creating an environment
(25:54):
and building a culture ofcommitment and performance.
Dr. Pelè (25:58):
Excellent and we'll have all of those links,
including the, the assessment,the, the LinkedIn and, of course
, fresh biz solutionscom andyour book, all on this
particular episode, con.
I want to thank you so much forbeing a wonderful repeat guest.
I can't wait to see your book.
I can't wait to get theengagement blueprint in my hands
(26:24):
.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the profitable
happiness podcast.
Kon Apostolopoulos (26:28):
Thank you, my friend, thank you.
Dr. Pelè (26:31):
Thanks for tuning in to the profitable happiness
podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPellecom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
Hello happy people.
Welcome to the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr Pelèwith the Profitable Happiness
Podcast, and today it is mypleasure for a second time to be
speaking with someone I justlove to learn from Han of
(00:20):
Postilopolis.
How are you doing today, han?
Kon Apostolopoulos (00:24):
Dr Pelè, I am wonderful, I am in great
company with you and I am soexcited to be here with you
together again.
Dr. Pelè (00:31):
Oh, it's awesome.
Now, Kon, you are aninternational author and speaker
.
You're an award-winning coach.
You're an in-person and virtualfacilitator of results and
organizations.
But you want to know what myfavorite thing is that you do?
You are a soccer coach.
I just love the idea that youuse teaching and coaching even
(00:54):
with your soccer students, andit's the same methodologies that
you use there that you've putinto organizations.
We want to learn more aboutthat, but before we get started,
tell us the problems that youaddress in organizations.
What are the core challengesthat you see over and over again
?
Kon Apostolopoulos (01:10):
Well, Dr.
Pelè, thank you.
That's a wonderful question,because the reason I founded my
organization, my company FreshBiz Solutions, was because when
I work with my clients, Irealize that they spend a lot of
time, money, resources,brainpower developing these
wonderful business plans.
But what happens is, if theydon't have the right people in
(01:32):
the right place to make theseplans become real, they're not
worth the paper they're writtenon.
So my job is to be able to comein and basically using my
framework and 30 years ofexperience in the field, to be
able to help them develop apipeline of leaders that are
ready and willing to be able toexecute those plans, leaders
that are fully engaged andcommitted to really make sure
(01:55):
that the company can succeed.
But they can also succeedwithin the company, and
sometimes that looks likeworkshops, leadership
development workshops,potentially, or skill
development workshops.
Sometimes that looks likeone-on-one or group coaching
with executives and emergingleaders.
Sometimes it's tailored eventsthat we have to put together to
get people on the same page, tobuild camaraderie and team and
(02:19):
ultimately it's all about makingsure that we have a people plan
and systems in place thatsupport and manage the business
plans and strategies.
So every dollar that my clientsspent are a dollar well spent
and focused on the right things.
Dr. Pelè (02:35):
Wow, and you have a book coming up which I mean the
topic is just like.
It's so important.
You're calling this book theengagement blueprint and I hope
we can talk more about that.
But I just want to say why isit that engagement continues to
be a problem year in, year out?
We hear of Gallup's polls.
(02:55):
They never change.
Nobody's moving the needle.
Why is this such a challenge,and what made you think of
writing this book along thoselines?
Kon Apostolopoulos (03:04):
Well, coming out of the pandemic, coming out
of one of the most globalcrises that we've faced as
humanity in a long, long time,we all realized that the
workplaces had changed in waysthat we hadn't even figured out
yet.
Everybody was looking at thesemassive numbers, millions
quitting their jobs and goingoff and trying to find different
(03:28):
ways of finding themselves,looking at things that matter to
the most the great resignation,as we called it.
But what people weren't payingattention to was the fact that
underneath that, there was anunderlying gap, a problem with
engagement.
For the first time in a decade,engagement numbers actually
reversed trend and they werefewer people engaged than the
(03:51):
year before.
But that in itself wasn't thebiggest problem.
The biggest problem was thedisengaged people.
The percentage of disengagedemployees was growing steadily
year over year, to the pointwhere those same Gallup reports
found that only one in fivepeople across the globe were
actually engaged.
(04:11):
So think about this If you havefive people that are rowing a
boat, Dr.
Pelè, and only one of them isactually paddling, three of them
are just along for the sceneryon the ride collecting a
paycheck, and there is that oneperson at the back of the boat
that's poking holes in it,trying to sink that boat
actively.
Think about what's happening toyour business Now.
(04:33):
When Gallup did the samereports and other companies
followed and did some research,they found that in the United
States alone last year the costof lost productivity was $350
billion billion with a B andwhen you project that out on the
(04:54):
global stage it becomes $7.8trillion.
That's lost productivity fromthe out-engagement gap that
we're talking about.
That's a problem.
Dr. Pelè (05:06):
Yes, that is a huge challenge and we've talked about
this before, but I would lovefor you to connect the dots for
us on how you became the guidefor the leaders who have to deal
with this problem.
What is your story?
How did you become Khan?
Kon Apostolopoulos (05:26):
Well.
So to put it in context, so Irealized that, as I was looking
at this problem, the work thatI've been doing with my clients
over the last three decades havepositioned me, in a way, to
understand more and more aboutit.
So I realized that I knew moreabout this than most people
because I've been applying theseskills and engaging my clients,
(05:47):
workforce, people at theindividual, at the leader level,
at the executive level,throughout those years to make a
difference.
So I'll give you one specificexample.
I worked with a client that isa company, a large scale
construction company, and it'sone of four divisions, and with
that group I've been workingwith them now for about a decade
(06:08):
.
And when we hit the greatrecession, the great resignation
now and we had the problemseven before then with the
pandemic and everything else,and these people were trying to
get back to a place of normalcywhat they realized is that they
weren't struggling the way theircounterparts in the other
(06:29):
regions or even theircompetitors in this market were.
We didn't lose any of our Aplayers.
We lost some people, but theyweren't our best and brightest
from the group and our numbers,our performance numbers,
continued to far exceed those ofour competition, and what we
realized is that the work thatwe had done had prepared us, had
(06:51):
created a culture wherecommitment and performance were
given freely and at high levelsby the employees.
They felt that their needs werebeing met.
They didn't need to lookelsewhere, they didn't need to
go find themselves somewhereelse, because everything that
they were looking for was rightthere, and so that, to me,
(07:12):
sparked the thought if I canmake that work with a company of
this size, if I can make itwork with my little kids on the
soccer field which is the sameprinciples and we can create
winning teams, we can createchampions.
What is that secret formula?
So I did my research, I lookedat the numbers, I looked at
information from Gallup, fromHarvard, from Deloitte, from
(07:35):
McKenzie, from a lot of othertrusted sources that we have,
and what I found is it validatedall of the findings that I had
from the work that I've beendoing and from that core, I
discovered that there are fourkey drivers, four needs that
people have that are human needs, not just employee needs, but
they are human needs that, asleaders, we need to make sure
(07:58):
that our environment, theworkplace that we are creating,
can meet those needs if we wantour people to be committed and
successful.
Dr. Pelè (08:06):
You know it's interesting.
If I put myself in the positionof someone hearing this, I'm
going to be like tell me thosefour drivers now, now I want to
hear them.
Because the truth is I soresonate with your path.
You know I have something on mywall that says a leader is one
who knows the way, goes the wayand shows the way.
(08:28):
What you're talking about isfrom personal experience.
This is not theory.
This is sure.
You validated things and youdid your literary research and
you understand that there's abody of knowledge around this.
But you've walked this walk and, given that, could you just
give us a sense of how you solvethese problems, as you describe
(08:50):
it in your book and as yourfour step model describes it?
How do you solve these problems?
Kon Apostolopoulos (08:56):
Well, let's take a look at that.
So let's start off with thefour drivers themselves.
What are those needs thatpeople need to satisfy for them
to be engaged?
Well, the first need is theneed to be valued.
We all want to feel valued andappreciated in our workplace, in
our lives in general.
We all seek that.
We all seek an environmentwhere leaders can create that
(09:18):
safe space where people can feelvalued, where they can express
their appreciation, where theycan show respect to their team
members, not just because ofanything else, but because they
are there, they are part of theteam, and then extend that
respect and that gratitude aseach one of these people start
performing at a higher level.
(09:39):
And when you recognize thosethings, people make the
connection and people realizethat you know what?
Hey, I'm appreciated here,because people that are
appreciated will always give youmore than what's expected.
So that's one thing, one keydriver that we have.
The second one is we have verytribal creatures.
We are creatures that want tobelong, that want to be part of
(10:01):
something.
So connection is very, veryimportant in work and when we
feel like we're part of a team,when we are connected to our
peers, we are connected to ourleaders.
We are connected to the goalsthat we share and I can feel
that connection.
I'm going to give more.
I'm going to be able to offermyself because I'm supporting
(10:21):
something bigger than me.
I mean, I asked my clients andI asked friends.
I said imagine that I just gaveyou a group photo, something
that we had, from a weekend thatwe spent together.
It's the first thing that you'regoing to do.
You're going to look foryourself in that picture.
You're going to see where do Ifit into this picture?
And so people want to knowwhat's that connection between
(10:45):
me and everybody else, or thebigger picture.
And from that, once we makethat connection evident to
people and allow them to belongto our team, they will give us
more.
And then we take that to thethird piece, which is people
want to feel that they aremaking a difference and they're
contributing in meaningful ways,that they can be productive.
(11:07):
So the work, the effort thatthey're putting into things has
a purpose, has a reason, justlike we talked about with that
picture that connection to thebigger, to the bigger piece and
understanding how does my workcontribute to the success of the
team, to the success of theorganization, how is it making a
difference in our communities?
(11:28):
And a lot of people think thatbeing feeling productive,
feeling like you're contributing, always is associated with
money.
That's not.
There is an element there goingback to the feeling value.
For anybody that's worked withvolunteers or you've been a
volunteer, you can relate to thefact that when you're
passionate about something, whenyou know that what you're doing
is contributing in meaningfulways.
(11:48):
You don't care about how muchyou're making, because that is
such a powerful driver, as longas in our professional lives,
for example, that we feel likewe're being rewarded equitably
for what we're doing.
We seek more in order to givemore.
And then, finally, the fourthdriver, dr Pelé, is the need
(12:08):
that we all have to continue tolearn and grow the feeling that
we have that we are supported inour efforts, that we are
mentored, that we are coached,that there is a path for us
within the organization to haveprogression, to seek areas that
we can go beyond where we aretoday.
If we are stagnant, that'sdemoralizing.
(12:29):
If we see no light, no future,how can you engage in a place
and commit yourself long-term?
But if you have a path that youcan see yourself thriving and
growing and learning andcontinuing to feel challenged,
you want to be part of that.
So those are the four drivers,the four needs that we have to
meet the need to feel valued,the need to feel connected, the
(12:52):
need to feel productive and theneed to feel supported.
When leaders can find ways,simple ways, strategies to be
able to address that, then theyhave a winning formula to be
able to engage their people,they can create and build a
culture where people can feelcommitted and performance will
rise to the top.
Dr. Pelè (13:13):
You mentioned earlier.
I think that in your book, aswell as in your practice, you
essentially provide tools andstrategies for building a
workplace culture that'sthriving, that implements these
four needs.
You focus specifically onleaders because, as we all know,
(13:34):
the fish stinks from the headdown.
So if you don't get it right atthe leadership, you get it
right anywhere else.
Give us some examples of thetools and strategies.
I know that you've talked aboutworkshops and different things.
Give us some examples ofexactly how you implement these
four drivers and organizations.
Kon Apostolopoulos (13:53):
Let's take a look at that.
So when we're building theleadership skills of the people
that will make the changes tothat environment.
There are four areas that Ifocus on my framework, if you
will, that matches up and tiesso well with these four drivers.
So those four areas are, forexample, when I can build
(14:14):
competence in my team and in theindividuals, in my leaders, I
can develop their skills, theirknowledge, their abilities and
then I partner that withcoaching and mentoring.
That helps enhance thatcommitment.
I build competence, I buildcommitment.
In other words, I show peoplehow they can do the job and I
(14:34):
work with them so they want todo the job.
That in itself helps establishthe value, because then they can
go out and establish the valuepiece and I work with people on
their commitment individuallybut then I work with them as a
group on teamwork, on buildingconnections, on building all of
those things.
(14:54):
I really meet that need ofconnection and of belonging
together, feeling part of abigger team.
On the other side, we talkedabout the competence through
those workshops but also withthe people systems in place.
Some people know that they'renot just learning, but they're
learning with a purpose toenhance their career, to enhance
their productivity.
(15:15):
That's how you meet that nextneed of productivity and
contribution.
And ultimately, when you pairup the systems and the teamwork
element together, now you havepeople thriving in a transparent
way, working together toachieve their goals of growth,
of learning and success as anorganization.
So four areas, four pillarsthat I use in my framework match
(15:37):
up so well with these fourdrivers that people need to be
successful and engaged.
Dr. Pelè (15:43):
I can't wait to read the book because already I'm
like, wow, I can see the maphere.
I've got the mind map ready togo to implement these things.
You have a saying that you loveto use.
You like to say that the grassis not greener.
On the other side, the grass isgreener where you water it.
By the way, I love that.
I asked you if you wrote thatbecause you got a copy right,
(16:05):
but you said you did not, so I'mlike eh.
Kon Apostolopoulos (16:09):
Yeah, and I'm not sure.
I'm not sure where it came from.
But I can't take credit for it,but I love using it, as I
explained to people that that isultimately the essence, the
spirit of the work that I'vebeen doing for 30 years and
everything that I've put intothis book.
A lot of my clients strugglewith that.
They're looking and saying whycan't I retain good people?
(16:30):
Why am I struggling with that?
Because that's the greatestfear that leaders, that business
owners have, that employershave.
They feel like they'reinvesting, they're contributing
to their people, but they don'tfeel like they're getting much
back.
They feel like their people areabandoning them for a couple of
dollars more an hour or a bumpin a salary or something else,
(16:51):
and they're going down thestreet and they are worried,
they are frustrated because theyfeel like they're committing
but they don't get that samelevel of commitment back from
their people.
Now, in all fairness, those samepeople are not getting their
needs met.
So I will tell the same thingto the leaders that I would tell
to the employees and to theteam members.
(17:11):
Understand this the grass isn'tgreener on the other side.
The grass is greener where youwater it.
Take time to cultivate yourgarden, leaders.
Take time to meet thoseengagement needs that your
people have.
Make sure they feel valued,make sure they feel connected,
make sure they feel productiveand make sure they feel
(17:32):
supported and for individuals.
Take the time to recognize whatyou can do with those four
drivers and how you can findways to get your needs met.
Dr. Pelè (17:42):
Yeah, you know, in my world, in my analogy, in fact in
my book, that I've just writtenwhat you're calling water it,
meaning keep the grass green.
I call build habits Because, ifyou think about it, any behavior
can become a habit, whetherit's a good behavior, good
habits or bad behaviors.
(18:02):
Bad habits and, as you say yougot as a leader, you have to
help your team or yourorganization focus on those good
things and behaviors andculture that you want to grow in
an organization.
You know, I would love to knowhow you use your model and your
(18:23):
methodologies and tools andstrategies to tie toward the
idea of employee happiness.
And I'll tell you why.
I know that your focus is onleaders.
I mean, that's where you start.
But ultimately you're buildingcultures which will involve
employees, and I think you wouldagree with me that there's a
classic problem there's leaderswho want profit they want
(18:44):
profitable organizations andemployees who want engagement
and happiness and well-being,and it's like can we get these
two things to happen at the sametime profitable happiness,
right, how does your methodologyhelp to promote happy employees
and profitable businesses?
Kon Apostolopoulos (19:04):
Well, very much the same way that you do
with your work over the yearsand now with your book and your
podcast and your messaging andall of the tools that you use
that serve so many of us.
Dr Pillai, you've demystifiedthat concept.
People think that profitablecompanies, happy employees or
engaged employees are at twoopposite ends of the spectrum,
that they can't coexist.
(19:25):
You and I both know that thatis a myth that we can debunk.
We can create the kind ofenvironment where we can create
not just the win-win for theemployers and the employees, but
also a win-win-win for thepeople that they serve, and be
able to go above and beyond that.
The way that we do that issimply by ensuring that people
(19:47):
can see that their goals, theirindividual goals, can be met
while supporting theorganizational goals, that those
two things don't have to beseparate.
When I look at it and I go likeyou do, we call it happiness a
lot of times with employees, butI know that your work goes much
deeper than just thesuperficial happiness, because
(20:09):
I've seen situations whereemployees can be very happy in
what they're doing and ignorethe customer, ignore what the
team is trying to do.
They find happiness untothemselves and guess what?
They kick off early although goand they'll watch things on
their computer while they're atwork time and do other things to
make themselves happy.
Look, guess what Deeperhappiness comes from that
(20:31):
connection that we talked about,about being able to know that
you're making a difference andthat the time that you dedicate
is time well spent.
When people realize that andalign though themselves with
those shared goals, that's whencompany's performance increases
in all areas and that's how theybecome profitable.
The same philosophy that youapproach from your profitable
(20:55):
happiness model is the same waythat I approach it showing both
sides that they can reach theirgoals without sacrificing, but
rather working together andcollaborating to find those
common grounds.
Dr. Pelè (21:09):
Let's say we have some skeptics listening to you and
they go, wow, sounds good, butwhat are the common mistakes
that I, as a leader, might makewhen trying to get my employees
to be happy to be engaged?
What are some common mistakesthat they should watch out for
so that, when they'reimplementing these things, they
feel more confident?
Kon Apostolopoulos (21:30):
Well, some simple examples.
One of them, for example, ismaking decisions for the
employees without asking them,trying to implement something
that you don't even know if yourpeople care about.
I mean, how many times have youseen people companies promoting
these kegs in the break room,or foosball tables in the
hallway, or pizza parties?
At some point, people get tiredof that.
(21:51):
You know what they're frat daysand they're sorority days are
over.
They want something moremeaningful than that.
Or leaders that think that justbecause they did something once
, that that's enough.
Well, zigg Ziggler used to saythat motivation, engagement,
happiness these are things thatare intrinsic and require effort
beyond just once.
(22:12):
It's like bathing One time isnot enough.
You got to do things moresystematically and purposefully.
They don't have a strategy.
Often they don't tie theirapproach, their people planned,
to their business plan.
Those two things need to bealigned.
These are just simple thingsthat we can quickly resolve when
we look at them and say, okay,you're spending the money anyway
(22:34):
.
Let's make sure that thatdollar that you spend, that euro
, that yen, whatever it is, iswell spent and it's targeted on
areas that are going to make abigger impact on you.
Dr. Pelè (22:45):
Wow, love that.
Well, can I tell us about whenthis book is coming out and what
other things you're doing topromote it?
Do you have some things we needto get a copy of, and how can
we get ahold of you online?
Kon Apostolopoulos (22:59):
Wonderful questions, so thank you for that
.
Let's first of all talk aboutthe book.
So the Labor of Love, which isthis book unlike my first book,
which, you know, with Dr Eley,we wrote the Seven Keys to
Navigating a Crisis In the startof the pandemic we wrote that
in 45 days and published it.
That was a record, wow.
This time I've taken the longway around the long journey, and
(23:21):
there's an African proverb thatyou are probably very familiar
with that says if you want to gofast, go alone yes.
If you want to go far, gotogether, yes.
So, because I'm hoping thatthis message will travel well
and far, I've decided to gotogether and I've been going
(23:41):
along the way.
I've been inviting people intothe journey, sharing milestones
along the way, sharing to agrowing community of people that
have come along for the ride,that are contributing and
sharpening this thoughtleadership and challenging, like
you have, my thoughts.
How does this make sense?
Why would it make sense?
When can we apply it?
Does it apply across the board?
(24:04):
And having the opportunity tointerview with people and asking
experts in the field that areglobal leaders of global brands
what's happening, how have theyapplied these principles.
It's been a long journey, andit's been a journey that I've
welcomed and I've learned somuch from it.
So the book is going to comeout early 2024.
So in the coming year lateJanuary, early February I'm
(24:28):
hoping to have it out in printand you are going to be one of
the first people that I'll besending a copy to my friend.
Yes, and getting it out to you,but in the meantime, I invite
you and our listeners to becomepart of this growing community,
this family, this connectedgroup of thought leaders and
shaping the message so we canall grow together and partake in
(24:49):
this journey.
So I'll provide a lot of thatinformation.
But where people can find me is, first and foremost, for those
that are on LinkedIn.
They can find me under coachcon K O N.
I spell it with a K instead ofa C for obvious reasons, because
it's hard to get people totrust you when you spell con
with a C.
Dr. Pelè (25:09):
Got it, coach K O N, there you go.
Kon Apostolopoulos (25:13):
And then my website has a number of
different resources for peopleFresh biz, b I Z solutionscom.
They can find me there.
They can find more informationand a gift for your audience
right off the back Dr Pelle is,I will send.
I will like to include a linkto our engagement assessment
(25:33):
where they can go in and answersome very simple questions and
get a sense of where thestrengths of their team right
now, what areas which one ofthese drivers is strong within
their team and perhaps wherethey might need to pay some
extra attention to, so that'llget them started and get them
thinking and start the processof truly creating an environment
(25:54):
and building a culture ofcommitment and performance.
Dr. Pelè (25:58):
Excellent and we'll have all of those links,
including the, the assessment,the, the LinkedIn and, of course
, fresh biz solutionscom andyour book, all on this
particular episode, con.
I want to thank you so much forbeing a wonderful repeat guest.
I can't wait to see your book.
I can't wait to get theengagement blueprint in my hands
(26:24):
.
Thank you so much for being aguest on the profitable
happiness podcast.
Kon Apostolopoulos (26:28):
Thank you, my friend, thank you.
Dr. Pelè (26:31):
Thanks for tuning in to the profitable happiness
podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPellecom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
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