October 31, 2023 • 33 mins
Ever felt the weight of leadership loneliness?
Fret not, as we bring you an enlightening conversation with Jonathan Bennett, an executive coach and trusted advisor who unpacks how executive coaching is a potent remedy for this isolation.
Jonathan shares his journey through the worlds of business and social purpose, offering insights into how organizations can align their values with their employees for a happier, more productive workplace.
You can connect with Jonathan Bennett online here:
Website: https://clearlythen.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bennettjonathan/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Pelè (00:00):
Hello happy people, welcome to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr Pelèwith the Profitable Happiness
Podcast, and today it is mypleasure to introduce you to
Jonathan Bennett, who is anexecutive coach and trusted
advisor.
And get this he helps peoplefast track their goals in just
(00:23):
three months with an ethical,caring approach to executive
coaching.
Jonathan, how are you doingtoday?
Jonathan Bennett (00:31):
I am doing so great.
It's wonderful to be here.
Dr. Pelè (00:34):
Oh yeah, and I have to read that off of your LinkedIn
cover here about your websiteclearlythencom, because I find
that so interesting, this ideaof an ethical, caring approach
to executive coaching.
You have to explain what youneed by that.
But before we go too far intothe nuts and bolts of what you
do and how you do it, can youtell us a little bit about the
(00:54):
problem, the challenges that yousolve for organizations, and
we'll talk about how you do thesolving a little bit later.
Jonathan Bennett (01:01):
Yeah for sure.
I think that often leadershipis pretty lonely.
You have the weight of theworld on your shoulders.
There is only so much that youcan dump on your friend or your
spouse or other people in yourlife before they get bored.
I don't want to hear it anymore.
And so what do you do?
(01:22):
You can't tell the folks thatwork for you, because you'd
probably scare them if they knewwhat you were thinking about.
If you have a board ofdirectors above you, maybe it's
not appropriate for you todisclose everything to them
either.
So where do you go?
How do you be with theheaviness?
And that's where executivecoaching can come in.
(01:43):
It's an independent third partywho has been there before, who
has a lot of seniority andexperience and can hold the
space and do some deep listeningand maybe offer some guidance
of other ways.
They've seen the challengesthat you might be facing or the
heaviness that you'recontemplating to bust your way
(02:05):
through it, and it's a realprivilege for me to be able to
do that work, because they getto know people in a really,
really deep way.
Sometimes it gets joked aboutas being like work therapy, and
at times I'm very boundary.
I don't do stuff outside ofwork or career or business.
But people tell me a lot ofstuff about life and about how
(02:30):
they're really feeling, and soit's really intimate.
It's really intimate work.
Dr. Pelè (02:36):
You know, I couldn't agree more when you said that
leadership is lonely.
My goodness, life is lonely.
Everyone needs this focus andyou talk about this thing I find
very interesting.
You say that business can havea social purpose that actually
delivers happiness to leadersand employees, but the social
(02:58):
purpose component is reallyimportant.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Jonathan Bennett (03:03):
Yeah.
So my own personal journey hasbeen in and around the nonprofit
and social purpose sectors, andso when I was young, I worked
in arts and culture, I worked inyouth unemployment, I worked in
healthcare, and when it cametime for me to start my own
company, I founded a managementconsulting firm.
(03:25):
I really wanted to focus in onserving nonprofit organizations,
except I didn't want all thebureaucracy and burden of being
a nonprofit myself, and so Ifounded a small company.
And as that company grew, itbecame increasingly important
for us to be able to have socialproof that we believe the same
things and we held the samevalues as our clients did.
(03:48):
And that's when we became a BCorp.
And for those listening in thatdon't know what a B Corp is,
it's a kind of certificationthat a company can go through
around social purpose.
So everything from paying aliving wage to caring about the
environment, to building thekind of workplace culture that
really wants to attract the verybest and retain them for a long
(04:10):
time, that's really at theheart of what the B Corp
movement is about, and there's7,000 B Corps around the world
now.
Dr. Pelè (04:19):
Jonathan, I'm interested in how this sort of
focus on the heart of people andthe purpose that is larger than
just the individual, and howall of that occurred to you.
What's your life story?
What brought you to thischallenge in the world?
Jonathan Bennett (04:40):
Yeah, I think I was a dreamer when I was young
.
All I wanted to do was tellstories, like literally.
I wanted to be a novelist, andso I have an English lit degree.
Dr. Pelè (04:53):
And you have a guitar behind you.
Jonathan Bennett (04:54):
There's a guitar behind me.
I'm known to occasionally strum,but when I was young like
writing songs and writingstories and I graduated and
thought really all I wanted todo, I wanted to go all in on
becoming a novelist and a poetand I did it and it was great.
I published seven books and Ialso found out there was no
(05:18):
money in my career.
So I was I'm very proud of thework, of my literary work, and I
feel really wonderful about it.
But I also knew that there wereother things that were
important to me and that reallymeant being a part of
organizations that care aboutthe humans that come to work
(05:42):
every day.
We spend so much of our time atwork and it has an outsized
impact on our identity, and soincreasingly people want to work
at places where they've got analigned ethical model with the
organization or the company thatthey work at.
In other words, what'shappening inside me and who I
(06:02):
see myself as and the things Ibelieve in.
I want to go to work every dayand know that the people around
me and the corporation at largeor the organization more broadly
feels the same way and whenwe're in alignment with who we
are, with where we work,wonderful things can happen and
hopefully you know to yourpodcast that's actually where
(06:25):
happiness can, can spark and cantake root.
Dr. Pelè (06:28):
Wow, no, I, I.
I love the idea of a person whowalks a walk because of where
they've been.
In fact, I have a sign on my mywall here that says a leader is
one who loves sorry.
A leader is one who knows theway, goes the way and shows the
way.
It's so authentic when you arethe product of where you've been
(06:48):
and what you've actually done.
It's just, it's powerful.
Whenever I hear that and seethat in someone, actually I
agree with you that a lot of thecreative arts Do not produce
income, but what a fusion ofcreativity and Teaching and
leadership when you're you're ina position to be an executive
coach.
I think that's powerful.
Jonathan Bennett (07:10):
I think I use, I use what I learned as a
novelist all the time Hmm, what?
What is strategic planning, forexample, if not imagining a
future that doesn't exist today,with plot points along the way?
I mean, it's just, it's justnarrative theory.
And so I, I really I'm gratefulfor all of that, all those
(07:30):
components of my past.
They feed everything that I do.
Dr. Pelè (07:33):
Yeah, I have to agree with you.
I have a similar Path, thatI've walked a similar path.
I have seven books to.
Actually I have eight books nowwith my current book and I've
written tons of songs and I'vefound that music and writing all
feed into the kinds of thingswe're talking about now, such as
executive coaching.
(07:54):
Now, on that note, can you takeus just one step deeper into
the how?
So you know someone listeninghere or watching me.
They say, yeah, I agree withyou.
There's this problem leadersare lonely.
Executive coaching is important, but what is your unique
approach to solving some of thechallenges that these leaders
face?
How exactly do you go aboutexecutive coaching?
Jonathan Bennett (08:16):
Yeah, sure.
So I I think about executivecoaching, the way I do it, as
kind of a blend of traditionalcoaching which feels a little
bit like work therapy andtrusted advisory work.
So I think you need kind of bothcomponents.
When a when a CEO or somebodyon a C-suite or is in senior
management comes and wantssupport and help from me.
(08:39):
You know they're not brand newto the game.
They might be earlier in theircareer, but chances are they've
been around at least a fewblocks and so they for sure want
self.
They want to, you know, exploretheir own self and where
they're at and what's going onfor them at work.
But they also need answers andthey want to Workshop solutions
(09:03):
with me.
They want to know what have Iseen that's worked before
elsewhere in different sectors,in different parts of the
country or the world, and soit's really a blend of those two
things.
It's kind of like one part is alot of Empathetic work, helping
people be vulnerable, admitwhere they're really at, and the
other half is Bringing skillsand experiences and competencies
(09:27):
to the conversation to helpthem, you know, break through
the problem that they'recurrently facing or Accelerate
through the growth that they'reexperiencing.
Whatever the case may be, and II don't know if this framework
will help, but I often get askeda little bit about like how
does it, how does theconversation go when you're in a
(09:47):
, when you're in a coachingconversation and there's a sort
of model that I think is quiteuseful and it's called the
triple loop model, and the firstloop is the do loop and In the
executive coaching world, the doloop really is about.
It's about management.
It's about managing people andtime and resources.
It's about delegating, it'sabout projects, and Everyone I
(10:12):
coach is dealing with all ofthose things all of the time and
they've got Supta nuts in termsof their problems and skills
and abilities.
You name it like anything couldbe on the table.
That's where people like tobegin, because it's safe.
That's what they do every day.
They're super comfortable.
They use the word we all thetime because they're probably a
part of a team and it just flowsreally naturally.
(10:33):
So that's a safe place to begin.
The next loop is the thinkingloop and that's where the
strategy happens.
People are lots of executivesare less good at strategy and
it's an area that many of themare developing.
And what?
Where are we gonna be in threeyears?
And how do we map that out andhow do we even talk about it and
(10:54):
how do we build innovation intoour thinking?
That's really.
That's really the thinking loop.
And then the final Loop iswhere the real magic happens,
which is the being loop andthat's where the ethics come in,
that's where your values comein.
And when things are reallydifficult at work, if you're
really having a dark time, inall likelihood we're in the
(11:17):
being loop that something that'sgoing on at work is out of
alignment with who you are, howyou brought up, how you think
the world ought to work, thekind of place that you want to
be, the kind of people that youWant to associate with and be
around Mm-hmm are not inalignment with it, with that for
you.
And so we'll often begin at thedo-loot.
We'll talk about delegation andtime management and how do I
(11:40):
get more stuff done?
And my vice presidents drivingme crazy and my Boards, you know
, doing all the things.
And so you know we problemsolve and sort through that and
I ask lots of questions and Atsome point we'll say where's all
this going like?
Okay, so let's say we solve allthese problems.
Then what?
Where's this company gonna be?
Where's this organization gonnabe in three years?
(12:00):
Why, who cares?
So what, like?
What's the plan, what's thestrategy?
And we do a lot of thinking,work, but eventually where we
end up is who am I?
Hmm, how do I show up whatmatters to me and is it being
manifested in this organizationthat I'm leading?
Hmm, and that's where thesocial purpose part really comes
(12:22):
in.
For me is that if you've got anethical model that believes
that there's, you know, needs tobe social justice, that the
environment matters, that other,you know, progressive things
are in play for you, then youwant to be in a workplace that
cares about those things too, oryou want to create a workplace
(12:42):
that draws people that careabout those things to you.
And that's what I really workon with leaders is how to have
an external expression of thosethings that matter to them the
most, because otherwise, why doit?
Dr. Pelè (12:56):
Does that involve some kind of internal marketing
skill or maybe change managementskill to build culture, you
know, to sort of get the shippointed in the right direction
of one or two or three socialpurpose you know topics.
Is that how you would framethat?
Jonathan Bennett (13:16):
Yeah, I mean that's certainly like a
component of the implementation,like I think it needs to begin
with an articulation of what youstand for Got it.
As Simon Sannick would probablysay, you know your why or your
purpose.
There's lots of different waysof describing those sorts of
things, but whatever floats yourboat is fine with me.
It's really just who are you inthis world and how do you
(13:43):
articulate that inside yourleadership and inside your
company?
And if you don't know that, youcan't expect other people to be
able to figure it out for you.
You know they'll be equallylost.
So that sort of selfexploration and self
actualization for leaders isparamount.
As they're able to do that,well then, what do they do?
(14:05):
And I think that's where yourquestion's coming in, Dr Bellay.
I think it's like it really isabout drawing people in, having
those brave and hard, courageousconversations about what we're
doing.
And if it's not good enough,then how can we do new and
different things to get betteroutcomes and get better results
and show up as more of ourauthentic selves in our work?
Dr. Pelè (14:30):
Yeah, you know, it's clear and it's obvious to me
that the success of the leadersyou work with will eventually be
the beginning that willpropagate other success with the
employees.
It sort of goes in thatdirection.
I wonder, when you're dealingwith these leaders, first of all
give me a sense of who they arein terms of you know what makes
(14:54):
them your ideal client, butthen, beyond that, if you could
give us a sense of what theystruggle with.
You know their blind spots, thethings that they don't see,
that you see.
You know those blind spots.
Boy, are they dangerous, andI'm sure you know what I'm
talking about generally.
But just give us some of yourfavorite stories, if you will,
(15:14):
of some things that leadersreally need to start to see
better so that they can achievewhat you're trying to help them
achieve.
Jonathan Bennett (15:22):
Yeah, that's so cool.
I love where you went there.
I help leaders and work withleaders from across many
different sectors and rightacross North America and beyond,
so there's no exact one kind of.
You know the marketers wouldlove me to have be super niched
and have an avatar.
(15:43):
You know that I could describe.
I resist that wholeheartedlyand with some glee.
The reason is because I'mreally attracted to people's
values and what they show upwithin the world, and that's
what I'm really looking for.
I work with leaders that careabout social justice issues,
(16:04):
that are running for profit andnot for profit organizations and
think that they can buildworkplace cultures that care
about their people, that thinkthat they can you know, if
they're a for profit, can makegood money and do good things in
the world but reinvest it inthings that matter to their
stakeholders, to the people thatare attached to that company's
(16:24):
success.
And if they're in the nonprofitsector and they're serving you
know clients that they're doingso with you know as much agency
and as much sort of likepowerful input as they can.
So whoever kind of fits thosesorts of molds tends to be drawn
(16:47):
to me.
They tend to pick me outbecause they're like I want a
coach that is gonna challenge meand push me and help my
thinking, because I don't wantto get stale and maybe challenge
my blind spots.
So I love that part of yourquestion.
So just this week I worked witha very senior leader.
(17:11):
She runs a huge, hugenot-for-profit organization
that's national, has manyemployees and she is dragging
her feet on performancemanagement.
Somebody out the door.
She needs to let somebody go,and we have talked about it over
(17:33):
the course of quite a fewsessions now and eventually I
had to sort of just say what'sgoing on here?
We've gone around it.
I know you fired people before.
I know you don't want to do it.
No one ever does.
We don't like the way thatmakes us feel and we would
rather never do that.
But the harm that this personis doing is really not great for
(17:55):
your culture.
Everyone is watching you notlet this person go and everybody
is judging you negativelybecause you're doing nothing
Like what's going on there.
And we were able to open it upand she has worked with this
person for many years like 15years and has helped her
personally through some prettydifficult times.
(18:18):
She completely agrees that it'spast time and she needs to move
on, but she feels like she'sletting down on that supportive
role that she had previously forthis person and that she's out
of alignment with that caringperson that was there for her
during some really dark,difficult times.
And so we were able to just say, okay.
(18:42):
So two things can be true youcan have been that person that
got her through that and youwere an awesome boss when you
did that, and she keptperforming well during and after
those times.
But other things have changednow and it is not working and
it's having a really negativeimpact on your whole
organization.
So how can we hold those twothings as being equally true and
(19:05):
okay for us to be able to say,okay, let's figure out an
elegant, thoughtful,kind-hearted way of helping her
move on to the next thing,because I can tell the brutal
walk you out the door thing isnever going to happen.
This person is never going to dothat.
It's not in alignment with whoshe is.
But it's wrong also for her tosit there, because everybody
(19:26):
else around is being hurt by thelack of performance, and so the
ripple effects of not takingaction can sometimes be way
worse than just sitting on yourhands.
It's not just that, it's reallygot some downside to it.
So we worked on some kind waysto help and we actually ended up
(19:48):
just like workshopping theconversation, like I pretended
to be her and she pretended tobe the person, and we ended up
just like actually theatersports.
We played it out, weworkshopped it out, but that
made her feel a lot better, andI haven't heard from her, but
I'm hoping that she's movedthrough with it, because it
(20:10):
needs to happen.
Dr. Pelè (20:12):
It's interesting.
I like the idea that you'veshared, really, which is that
tough and love are not mutuallyexclusive.
You can do both if you infusesome kindness, as you've shared.
Another thing that I think I'dlike to learn more about is the
idea that profitable businessesare also not mutually exclusive
(20:35):
from the idea of social purposeand a socially conscious
business.
For anyone who might bewondering how having a social
purpose can actually be a driverof their business profitability
or their employee happiness,help us make a connection there.
Jonathan Bennett (20:54):
Well, for sure , I mean.
The B Corp movement has done alot of research on this way.
Better retention rates, moreprofitable.
They can articulate whatthey've done for the environment
.
So as we move on in the worldand we understand that there's
(21:15):
more than just rampantcapitalism and the Almighty.
Bark that there's more things atstake.
It can be okay for us to say Iwant this company to be
profitable, I want to providefor my kids and family, but also
I'd like to create a workplacewhere people want to come to
work and they want to stay,where people see themselves
valued at work, where it's safe,psychologically safe, where
(21:37):
people feel accountable at workand where they're really proud
to say where they work.
When we have an open job,imagine this we have an open job
.
We don't need to post becauseeverybody inside calls up
everybody they know who theyreally like from previous jobs
and does your recruitment foryou.
(21:59):
That's what happens at B Corp,because they are very focused
organizations and really clearon their purpose.
And I think that all thosethings can be true.
You can be really profitable,and I think it's just the most
(22:19):
cynical now who think that thesethings are mutually exclusive,
that somehow you need to grindand just leave people behind.
That's the only way is to justsqueeze and squeeze.
I don't think that's true atall.
I think having a mindset that'sabundant and drawing people to
(22:39):
you that care about the samethings you do really can make a
company be amazing, and I'mtestament to the fact that you
can grow one and sell it.
That's always a founder's sortof thing.
It's like well, if we get intothe B Corp thing, wouldn't that
harm my ability to be able tosell it?
I don't want to be selfish, butand I'm here to say it ain't
(23:02):
true you can exit from a B Corpand it can be a beautiful thing.
Dr. Pelè (23:10):
Are there companies that you work with sometimes
that are not B Corps but, as yousaid, it's a question of the
leadership values but seethemselves in a picture that you
paint about how becoming a BCorp could actually be the
missing link for them.
Do you also have that sort of?
Jonathan Bennett (23:30):
Yeah, for sure , most leaders I work with are
not at B Corps.
There's only 7,000 B Corpsaround the world, so it's a
pretty niche kind of club.
I suppose, and, frankly,purposefully quite a high bar
that you have to reach to get in.
So it isn't for every companyand it certainly isn't for every
(23:50):
company right away, but I'malways drawn to leaders that
have aspirations in that vein.
And so if the things about theB Corp movement or about social
purpose business, if you wouldjust like to be a better
community member, a betteremployer, a better leader, then,
they're the sorts of thingsthat I care about and that I can
(24:11):
help with.
Dr. Pelè (24:12):
Yeah, no, you talked about earlier the three Ps.
I love that.
You said you got to care aboutthe planet.
You got to care about profit,of course, and you got to care
about people.
Let's talk about people for asecond, and how you sort of
funnel down to employees theirhappiness, their well-being, and
how, once again, that becomesanother driver back up to profit
(24:35):
and then, of course, up to theplanet.
How do you bring in theemployee aspect of this, even as
you work through leaders?
Jonathan Bennett (24:42):
So I think a lot about two concepts
psychological safety andaccountability.
And I'll tell you a littlestory.
A while ago I got brought in togive an address.
I felt like a workshop, ahalf-day workshop with a
medium-sized firm there,actually a B Corp and the owner
(25:02):
called me up and said Jonathan,our staff have asked for a
workshop on psychological safetyin the workplace.
And of course I got bells goingoff here.
I'm like tell me more, what'sgoing on there for you?
And he's you know, well, oh,there's been some changes and
(25:23):
we've got too much work.
And everybody's stressed andI'm like, okay, okay.
And he said we'll listen.
You know, like the leadership.
We're kind of also wonderinglike, could you work some stuff
in about accountability?
Like, oh, tell me more aboutthat.
Well, we just need them to dot,dot, dot.
Dr. Pelè (25:41):
And so somewhere between the staff, a little bit
unsafe right now.
Here's a hint Right.
Jonathan Bennett (25:47):
Somewhere between the staff wanting
psychological safety and theleadership wanting
accountability is actually abeautiful opportunity, because
they're really two sides of thesame thing.
When a workplace ispsychologically safe, it means
you can show up as yourauthentic self.
It means that you don't fearreprisals or repercussions to
(26:12):
sharing an idea.
It means that there's a levelof trust that exists and you
have a learning environment.
If you make a mistake, it's notthe end of the world.
Somebody will help you clean itup and you'll be able to share
the lessons learned.
On the accountable side, we'veall been on teams at times that
(26:33):
had really low accountability,which sounds like that's not my
job.
You didn't ask me to do that.
Why should I All that kind ofstuff?
But when you're on a highaccountable team, I'm spending a
lot of time thinking about youand the team broadly and the
(26:55):
organization as a whole, becauseI know they're all thinking
about me.
The organization cares about me, the whole team cares about me
and you, as my colleague, youcare about me, and so I'm
looking out for you and you'relooking out for me, and so
accountability and psychologicalsafety are actually tightly
interwoven and high performancecultures have both, and I like
(27:19):
to work with teams and leadersthat care a lot about both those
things and can see how theyintersect.
Often it doesn't take much topeel them apart and figure out
where we're hitting wrong andhow do we rebuild.
It takes work and it takes aplan, but you got to commit and
(27:42):
then do.
Dr. Pelè (27:44):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
In fact, you've just describedpretty much what I do with my
software, because I think whatyou're really saying is you
can't just click your fingersand it happens.
There's got to be a process ofculture building that happens
over time, and employeesadopting and becoming these new
(28:06):
sets of behaviors and maybe evenvalues that the leader is
pushing into the reality of theorganization.
I happen to do that throughsoftware, but I love something
that you've got on your website.
Your website is calledClearlyThencom.
I would love to know what youmean by ClearlyThen.
(28:29):
I bet you there's a storybehind that.
Jonathan Bennett (28:32):
Yeah, that's funny.
There is a story I don't knowif it's a super deep one, but
it's hard to name companies.
It's actually hard.
It's hard to think of a nameand get the website URL, yeah,
correct, it's really tough.
So when I was brainstorming so Isaw my company, the management
(28:54):
consulting company I referencedearly out about two years ago.
I knew in my heart of heartsthe next thing for me was I just
wanted to practice by myself.
I had lots of employees and Ifelt like I'd done that and I
really just wanted somethingsimpler.
I wanted just to work by myselfand for myself and have lots of
partnerships and a wonderfulnetwork, and I'm blessed to have
(29:17):
those things in place.
But at the time I was trying tothink of what do I call this?
And I was reminded when I wasmy wife reminded me when we were
in university, we had thislittle joke we were both in
English and we wrote a bajillionessays and we had this
shorthand that happened betweenthe two of us, which happens in
(29:39):
couples all the time, which waslike how close are you to
finishing the essay before wecan go out with our friends, or
whatever?
And it became are you atclearly comma then comma, which
meant are you at the beginningof the final paragraph?
And so it was like where areyou?
And you're like I'm still a bitaway from clearly comma then
(30:00):
comma.
And that became a kind of thingthat we would say and I thought
, here I am in kind of likemaybe the second, last or the
last act of my career, and itfelt like I'm at the clearly
comma then comma stage of I feellike I know what I'm doing and
I feel like I know what I needto articulate and wrap up and
help people with, which feelslike a version of the final
(30:22):
paragraph.
So that's where the name camefrom.
Dr. Pelè (30:26):
You know, what's interesting about that is you
got to tell that story becausethat's where a lot of leaders
are, that's where the leadersthat you're talking with.
They're right there.
It's the clearly, then clearly.
Then can I say it in Australianaccent Clearly yeah, you can
totally.
Jonathan Bennett (30:41):
Yeah, clearly Right.
Dr. Pelè (30:42):
Yeah, oh, that's funny .
So you know, tell us a littlebit about what you're working on
right now, what you're excitedto share and how people can get
ahold of you online.
Jonathan Bennett (30:54):
Yeah, sure, so I do a couple of things.
So I do one on one, executivecoaching a few times a year.
I'll run a group.
Usually it's invitation only.
Best place to reach me is onLinkedIn.
I am a real human and I respondto DMs Pretty pretty good.
I'm strong administratively,which so I'm, you know, I'm good
(31:19):
at getting back to people andyou know, if you're a leader
that is, you know, think wouldbenefit from some time with me,
feel free to reach out.
I always like to spend sometime with people before I work
with them, just to get to knowthem, and you know, there's
never any charge to having atrial session, so I always do
that.
So LinkedIn is usually the bestyou know.
(31:40):
Obviously also, you can readlots about me and listen to
other stuff I've done on mywebsite, which is clearly
thencom, and other things thatI'm excited about doing.
I love being on podcasts.
I write a lot, I blog a lot, Ipush stuff out on LinkedIn quite
a lot and it's a way for me tojust keep processing.
(32:02):
And one of the things aboutworking by your and for yourself
is that you know you haven'tgot any colleagues and so you've
got all this stuff in your headand what are you going to do
with it?
And one of the things I've foundthat helps is to write, and so
I push out stuff on LinkedIn andI enjoy that.
I enjoy the engagement that Iget there, but I also just enjoy
the kind of the brain dump andthe sort of formulating of my
(32:27):
thoughts.
Dr. Pelè (32:29):
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with you more For me.
I love meeting new people onpodcasts because they help me
recharge my brain.
They you know I speak only withpeople who teach me something,
and you've been one of my greatteachers.
I want to say thank you so muchfor having been a guest on the
Profitable Happiness Podcast.
Jonathan Bennett (32:49):
Thank you so much.
Dr. Pelè (32:52):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPalletcom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
Hello happy people, welcome to the Profitable
Happiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr Pelèwith the Profitable Happiness
Podcast, and today it is mypleasure to introduce you to
Jonathan Bennett, who is anexecutive coach and trusted
advisor.
And get this he helps peoplefast track their goals in just
(00:23):
three months with an ethical,caring approach to executive
coaching.
Jonathan, how are you doingtoday?
Jonathan Bennett (00:31):
I am doing so great.
It's wonderful to be here.
Dr. Pelè (00:34):
Oh yeah, and I have to read that off of your LinkedIn
cover here about your websiteclearlythencom, because I find
that so interesting, this ideaof an ethical, caring approach
to executive coaching.
You have to explain what youneed by that.
But before we go too far intothe nuts and bolts of what you
do and how you do it, can youtell us a little bit about the
(00:54):
problem, the challenges that yousolve for organizations, and
we'll talk about how you do thesolving a little bit later.
Jonathan Bennett (01:01):
Yeah for sure.
I think that often leadershipis pretty lonely.
You have the weight of theworld on your shoulders.
There is only so much that youcan dump on your friend or your
spouse or other people in yourlife before they get bored.
I don't want to hear it anymore.
And so what do you do?
(01:22):
You can't tell the folks thatwork for you, because you'd
probably scare them if they knewwhat you were thinking about.
If you have a board ofdirectors above you, maybe it's
not appropriate for you todisclose everything to them
either.
So where do you go?
How do you be with theheaviness?
And that's where executivecoaching can come in.
(01:43):
It's an independent third partywho has been there before, who
has a lot of seniority andexperience and can hold the
space and do some deep listeningand maybe offer some guidance
of other ways.
They've seen the challengesthat you might be facing or the
heaviness that you'recontemplating to bust your way
(02:05):
through it, and it's a realprivilege for me to be able to
do that work, because they getto know people in a really,
really deep way.
Sometimes it gets joked aboutas being like work therapy, and
at times I'm very boundary.
I don't do stuff outside ofwork or career or business.
But people tell me a lot ofstuff about life and about how
(02:30):
they're really feeling, and soit's really intimate.
It's really intimate work.
Dr. Pelè (02:36):
You know, I couldn't agree more when you said that
leadership is lonely.
My goodness, life is lonely.
Everyone needs this focus andyou talk about this thing I find
very interesting.
You say that business can havea social purpose that actually
delivers happiness to leadersand employees, but the social
(02:58):
purpose component is reallyimportant.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Jonathan Bennett (03:03):
Yeah.
So my own personal journey hasbeen in and around the nonprofit
and social purpose sectors, andso when I was young, I worked
in arts and culture, I worked inyouth unemployment, I worked in
healthcare, and when it cametime for me to start my own
company, I founded a managementconsulting firm.
(03:25):
I really wanted to focus in onserving nonprofit organizations,
except I didn't want all thebureaucracy and burden of being
a nonprofit myself, and so Ifounded a small company.
And as that company grew, itbecame increasingly important
for us to be able to have socialproof that we believe the same
things and we held the samevalues as our clients did.
(03:48):
And that's when we became a BCorp.
And for those listening in thatdon't know what a B Corp is,
it's a kind of certificationthat a company can go through
around social purpose.
So everything from paying aliving wage to caring about the
environment, to building thekind of workplace culture that
really wants to attract the verybest and retain them for a long
(04:10):
time, that's really at theheart of what the B Corp
movement is about, and there's7,000 B Corps around the world
now.
Dr. Pelè (04:19):
Jonathan, I'm interested in how this sort of
focus on the heart of people andthe purpose that is larger than
just the individual, and howall of that occurred to you.
What's your life story?
What brought you to thischallenge in the world?
Jonathan Bennett (04:40):
Yeah, I think I was a dreamer when I was young
.
All I wanted to do was tellstories, like literally.
I wanted to be a novelist, andso I have an English lit degree.
Dr. Pelè (04:53):
And you have a guitar behind you.
Jonathan Bennett (04:54):
There's a guitar behind me.
I'm known to occasionally strum,but when I was young like
writing songs and writingstories and I graduated and
thought really all I wanted todo, I wanted to go all in on
becoming a novelist and a poetand I did it and it was great.
I published seven books and Ialso found out there was no
(05:18):
money in my career.
So I was I'm very proud of thework, of my literary work, and I
feel really wonderful about it.
But I also knew that there wereother things that were
important to me and that reallymeant being a part of
organizations that care aboutthe humans that come to work
(05:42):
every day.
We spend so much of our time atwork and it has an outsized
impact on our identity, and soincreasingly people want to work
at places where they've got analigned ethical model with the
organization or the company thatthey work at.
In other words, what'shappening inside me and who I
(06:02):
see myself as and the things Ibelieve in.
I want to go to work every dayand know that the people around
me and the corporation at largeor the organization more broadly
feels the same way and whenwe're in alignment with who we
are, with where we work,wonderful things can happen and
hopefully you know to yourpodcast that's actually where
(06:25):
happiness can, can spark and cantake root.
Dr. Pelè (06:28):
Wow, no, I, I.
I love the idea of a person whowalks a walk because of where
they've been.
In fact, I have a sign on my mywall here that says a leader is
one who loves sorry.
A leader is one who knows theway, goes the way and shows the
way.
It's so authentic when you arethe product of where you've been
(06:48):
and what you've actually done.
It's just, it's powerful.
Whenever I hear that and seethat in someone, actually I
agree with you that a lot of thecreative arts Do not produce
income, but what a fusion ofcreativity and Teaching and
leadership when you're you're ina position to be an executive
coach.
I think that's powerful.
Jonathan Bennett (07:10):
I think I use, I use what I learned as a
novelist all the time Hmm, what?
What is strategic planning, forexample, if not imagining a
future that doesn't exist today,with plot points along the way?
I mean, it's just, it's justnarrative theory.
And so I, I really I'm gratefulfor all of that, all those
(07:30):
components of my past.
They feed everything that I do.
Dr. Pelè (07:33):
Yeah, I have to agree with you.
I have a similar Path, thatI've walked a similar path.
I have seven books to.
Actually I have eight books nowwith my current book and I've
written tons of songs and I'vefound that music and writing all
feed into the kinds of thingswe're talking about now, such as
executive coaching.
(07:54):
Now, on that note, can you takeus just one step deeper into
the how?
So you know someone listeninghere or watching me.
They say, yeah, I agree withyou.
There's this problem leadersare lonely.
Executive coaching is important, but what is your unique
approach to solving some of thechallenges that these leaders
face?
How exactly do you go aboutexecutive coaching?
Jonathan Bennett (08:16):
Yeah, sure.
So I I think about executivecoaching, the way I do it, as
kind of a blend of traditionalcoaching which feels a little
bit like work therapy andtrusted advisory work.
So I think you need kind of bothcomponents.
When a when a CEO or somebodyon a C-suite or is in senior
management comes and wantssupport and help from me.
(08:39):
You know they're not brand newto the game.
They might be earlier in theircareer, but chances are they've
been around at least a fewblocks and so they for sure want
self.
They want to, you know, exploretheir own self and where
they're at and what's going onfor them at work.
But they also need answers andthey want to Workshop solutions
(09:03):
with me.
They want to know what have Iseen that's worked before
elsewhere in different sectors,in different parts of the
country or the world, and soit's really a blend of those two
things.
It's kind of like one part is alot of Empathetic work, helping
people be vulnerable, admitwhere they're really at, and the
other half is Bringing skillsand experiences and competencies
(09:27):
to the conversation to helpthem, you know, break through
the problem that they'recurrently facing or Accelerate
through the growth that they'reexperiencing.
Whatever the case may be, and II don't know if this framework
will help, but I often get askeda little bit about like how
does it, how does theconversation go when you're in a
(09:47):
, when you're in a coachingconversation and there's a sort
of model that I think is quiteuseful and it's called the
triple loop model, and the firstloop is the do loop and In the
executive coaching world, the doloop really is about.
It's about management.
It's about managing people andtime and resources.
It's about delegating, it'sabout projects, and Everyone I
(10:12):
coach is dealing with all ofthose things all of the time and
they've got Supta nuts in termsof their problems and skills
and abilities.
You name it like anything couldbe on the table.
That's where people like tobegin, because it's safe.
That's what they do every day.
They're super comfortable.
They use the word we all thetime because they're probably a
part of a team and it just flowsreally naturally.
(10:33):
So that's a safe place to begin.
The next loop is the thinkingloop and that's where the
strategy happens.
People are lots of executivesare less good at strategy and
it's an area that many of themare developing.
And what?
Where are we gonna be in threeyears?
And how do we map that out andhow do we even talk about it and
(10:54):
how do we build innovation intoour thinking?
That's really.
That's really the thinking loop.
And then the final Loop iswhere the real magic happens,
which is the being loop andthat's where the ethics come in,
that's where your values comein.
And when things are reallydifficult at work, if you're
really having a dark time, inall likelihood we're in the
(11:17):
being loop that something that'sgoing on at work is out of
alignment with who you are, howyou brought up, how you think
the world ought to work, thekind of place that you want to
be, the kind of people that youWant to associate with and be
around Mm-hmm are not inalignment with it, with that for
you.
And so we'll often begin at thedo-loot.
We'll talk about delegation andtime management and how do I
(11:40):
get more stuff done?
And my vice presidents drivingme crazy and my Boards, you know
, doing all the things.
And so you know we problemsolve and sort through that and
I ask lots of questions and Atsome point we'll say where's all
this going like?
Okay, so let's say we solve allthese problems.
Then what?
Where's this company gonna be?
Where's this organization gonnabe in three years?
(12:00):
Why, who cares?
So what, like?
What's the plan, what's thestrategy?
And we do a lot of thinking,work, but eventually where we
end up is who am I?
Hmm, how do I show up whatmatters to me and is it being
manifested in this organizationthat I'm leading?
Hmm, and that's where thesocial purpose part really comes
(12:22):
in.
For me is that if you've got anethical model that believes
that there's, you know, needs tobe social justice, that the
environment matters, that other,you know, progressive things
are in play for you, then youwant to be in a workplace that
cares about those things too, oryou want to create a workplace
(12:42):
that draws people that careabout those things to you.
And that's what I really workon with leaders is how to have
an external expression of thosethings that matter to them the
most, because otherwise, why doit?
Dr. Pelè (12:56):
Does that involve some kind of internal marketing
skill or maybe change managementskill to build culture, you
know, to sort of get the shippointed in the right direction
of one or two or three socialpurpose you know topics.
Is that how you would framethat?
Jonathan Bennett (13:16):
Yeah, I mean that's certainly like a
component of the implementation,like I think it needs to begin
with an articulation of what youstand for Got it.
As Simon Sannick would probablysay, you know your why or your
purpose.
There's lots of different waysof describing those sorts of
things, but whatever floats yourboat is fine with me.
It's really just who are you inthis world and how do you
(13:43):
articulate that inside yourleadership and inside your
company?
And if you don't know that, youcan't expect other people to be
able to figure it out for you.
You know they'll be equallylost.
So that sort of selfexploration and self
actualization for leaders isparamount.
As they're able to do that,well then, what do they do?
(14:05):
And I think that's where yourquestion's coming in, Dr Bellay.
I think it's like it really isabout drawing people in, having
those brave and hard, courageousconversations about what we're
doing.
And if it's not good enough,then how can we do new and
different things to get betteroutcomes and get better results
and show up as more of ourauthentic selves in our work?
Dr. Pelè (14:30):
Yeah, you know, it's clear and it's obvious to me
that the success of the leadersyou work with will eventually be
the beginning that willpropagate other success with the
employees.
It sort of goes in thatdirection.
I wonder, when you're dealingwith these leaders, first of all
give me a sense of who they arein terms of you know what makes
(14:54):
them your ideal client, butthen, beyond that, if you could
give us a sense of what theystruggle with.
You know their blind spots, thethings that they don't see,
that you see.
You know those blind spots.
Boy, are they dangerous, andI'm sure you know what I'm
talking about generally.
But just give us some of yourfavorite stories, if you will,
(15:14):
of some things that leadersreally need to start to see
better so that they can achievewhat you're trying to help them
achieve.
Jonathan Bennett (15:22):
Yeah, that's so cool.
I love where you went there.
I help leaders and work withleaders from across many
different sectors and rightacross North America and beyond,
so there's no exact one kind of.
You know the marketers wouldlove me to have be super niched
and have an avatar.
(15:43):
You know that I could describe.
I resist that wholeheartedlyand with some glee.
The reason is because I'mreally attracted to people's
values and what they show upwithin the world, and that's
what I'm really looking for.
I work with leaders that careabout social justice issues,
(16:04):
that are running for profit andnot for profit organizations and
think that they can buildworkplace cultures that care
about their people, that thinkthat they can you know, if
they're a for profit, can makegood money and do good things in
the world but reinvest it inthings that matter to their
stakeholders, to the people thatare attached to that company's
(16:24):
success.
And if they're in the nonprofitsector and they're serving you
know clients that they're doingso with you know as much agency
and as much sort of likepowerful input as they can.
So whoever kind of fits thosesorts of molds tends to be drawn
(16:47):
to me.
They tend to pick me outbecause they're like I want a
coach that is gonna challenge meand push me and help my
thinking, because I don't wantto get stale and maybe challenge
my blind spots.
So I love that part of yourquestion.
So just this week I worked witha very senior leader.
(17:11):
She runs a huge, hugenot-for-profit organization
that's national, has manyemployees and she is dragging
her feet on performancemanagement.
Somebody out the door.
She needs to let somebody go,and we have talked about it over
(17:33):
the course of quite a fewsessions now and eventually I
had to sort of just say what'sgoing on here?
We've gone around it.
I know you fired people before.
I know you don't want to do it.
No one ever does.
We don't like the way thatmakes us feel and we would
rather never do that.
But the harm that this personis doing is really not great for
(17:55):
your culture.
Everyone is watching you notlet this person go and everybody
is judging you negativelybecause you're doing nothing
Like what's going on there.
And we were able to open it upand she has worked with this
person for many years like 15years and has helped her
personally through some prettydifficult times.
(18:18):
She completely agrees that it'spast time and she needs to move
on, but she feels like she'sletting down on that supportive
role that she had previously forthis person and that she's out
of alignment with that caringperson that was there for her
during some really dark,difficult times.
And so we were able to just say, okay.
(18:42):
So two things can be true youcan have been that person that
got her through that and youwere an awesome boss when you
did that, and she keptperforming well during and after
those times.
But other things have changednow and it is not working and
it's having a really negativeimpact on your whole
organization.
So how can we hold those twothings as being equally true and
(19:05):
okay for us to be able to say,okay, let's figure out an
elegant, thoughtful,kind-hearted way of helping her
move on to the next thing,because I can tell the brutal
walk you out the door thing isnever going to happen.
This person is never going to dothat.
It's not in alignment with whoshe is.
But it's wrong also for her tosit there, because everybody
(19:26):
else around is being hurt by thelack of performance, and so the
ripple effects of not takingaction can sometimes be way
worse than just sitting on yourhands.
It's not just that, it's reallygot some downside to it.
So we worked on some kind waysto help and we actually ended up
(19:48):
just like workshopping theconversation, like I pretended
to be her and she pretended tobe the person, and we ended up
just like actually theatersports.
We played it out, weworkshopped it out, but that
made her feel a lot better, andI haven't heard from her, but
I'm hoping that she's movedthrough with it, because it
(20:10):
needs to happen.
Dr. Pelè (20:12):
It's interesting.
I like the idea that you'veshared, really, which is that
tough and love are not mutuallyexclusive.
You can do both if you infusesome kindness, as you've shared.
Another thing that I think I'dlike to learn more about is the
idea that profitable businessesare also not mutually exclusive
(20:35):
from the idea of social purposeand a socially conscious
business.
For anyone who might bewondering how having a social
purpose can actually be a driverof their business profitability
or their employee happiness,help us make a connection there.
Jonathan Bennett (20:54):
Well, for sure , I mean.
The B Corp movement has done alot of research on this way.
Better retention rates, moreprofitable.
They can articulate whatthey've done for the environment
.
So as we move on in the worldand we understand that there's
(21:15):
more than just rampantcapitalism and the Almighty.
Bark that there's more things atstake.
It can be okay for us to say Iwant this company to be
profitable, I want to providefor my kids and family, but also
I'd like to create a workplacewhere people want to come to
work and they want to stay,where people see themselves
valued at work, where it's safe,psychologically safe, where
(21:37):
people feel accountable at workand where they're really proud
to say where they work.
When we have an open job,imagine this we have an open job
.
We don't need to post becauseeverybody inside calls up
everybody they know who theyreally like from previous jobs
and does your recruitment foryou.
(21:59):
That's what happens at B Corp,because they are very focused
organizations and really clearon their purpose.
And I think that all thosethings can be true.
You can be really profitable,and I think it's just the most
(22:19):
cynical now who think that thesethings are mutually exclusive,
that somehow you need to grindand just leave people behind.
That's the only way is to justsqueeze and squeeze.
I don't think that's true atall.
I think having a mindset that'sabundant and drawing people to
(22:39):
you that care about the samethings you do really can make a
company be amazing, and I'mtestament to the fact that you
can grow one and sell it.
That's always a founder's sortof thing.
It's like well, if we get intothe B Corp thing, wouldn't that
harm my ability to be able tosell it?
I don't want to be selfish, butand I'm here to say it ain't
(23:02):
true you can exit from a B Corpand it can be a beautiful thing.
Dr. Pelè (23:10):
Are there companies that you work with sometimes
that are not B Corps but, as yousaid, it's a question of the
leadership values but seethemselves in a picture that you
paint about how becoming a BCorp could actually be the
missing link for them.
Do you also have that sort of?
Jonathan Bennett (23:30):
Yeah, for sure , most leaders I work with are
not at B Corps.
There's only 7,000 B Corpsaround the world, so it's a
pretty niche kind of club.
I suppose, and, frankly,purposefully quite a high bar
that you have to reach to get in.
So it isn't for every companyand it certainly isn't for every
(23:50):
company right away, but I'malways drawn to leaders that
have aspirations in that vein.
And so if the things about theB Corp movement or about social
purpose business, if you wouldjust like to be a better
community member, a betteremployer, a better leader, then,
they're the sorts of thingsthat I care about and that I can
(24:11):
help with.
Dr. Pelè (24:12):
Yeah, no, you talked about earlier the three Ps.
I love that.
You said you got to care aboutthe planet.
You got to care about profit,of course, and you got to care
about people.
Let's talk about people for asecond, and how you sort of
funnel down to employees theirhappiness, their well-being, and
how, once again, that becomesanother driver back up to profit
(24:35):
and then, of course, up to theplanet.
How do you bring in theemployee aspect of this, even as
you work through leaders?
Jonathan Bennett (24:42):
So I think a lot about two concepts
psychological safety andaccountability.
And I'll tell you a littlestory.
A while ago I got brought in togive an address.
I felt like a workshop, ahalf-day workshop with a
medium-sized firm there,actually a B Corp and the owner
(25:02):
called me up and said Jonathan,our staff have asked for a
workshop on psychological safetyin the workplace.
And of course I got bells goingoff here.
I'm like tell me more, what'sgoing on there for you?
And he's you know, well, oh,there's been some changes and
(25:23):
we've got too much work.
And everybody's stressed andI'm like, okay, okay.
And he said we'll listen.
You know, like the leadership.
We're kind of also wonderinglike, could you work some stuff
in about accountability?
Like, oh, tell me more aboutthat.
Well, we just need them to dot,dot, dot.
Dr. Pelè (25:41):
And so somewhere between the staff, a little bit
unsafe right now.
Here's a hint Right.
Jonathan Bennett (25:47):
Somewhere between the staff wanting
psychological safety and theleadership wanting
accountability is actually abeautiful opportunity, because
they're really two sides of thesame thing.
When a workplace ispsychologically safe, it means
you can show up as yourauthentic self.
It means that you don't fearreprisals or repercussions to
(26:12):
sharing an idea.
It means that there's a levelof trust that exists and you
have a learning environment.
If you make a mistake, it's notthe end of the world.
Somebody will help you clean itup and you'll be able to share
the lessons learned.
On the accountable side, we'veall been on teams at times that
(26:33):
had really low accountability,which sounds like that's not my
job.
You didn't ask me to do that.
Why should I All that kind ofstuff?
But when you're on a highaccountable team, I'm spending a
lot of time thinking about youand the team broadly and the
(26:55):
organization as a whole, becauseI know they're all thinking
about me.
The organization cares about me, the whole team cares about me
and you, as my colleague, youcare about me, and so I'm
looking out for you and you'relooking out for me, and so
accountability and psychologicalsafety are actually tightly
interwoven and high performancecultures have both, and I like
(27:19):
to work with teams and leadersthat care a lot about both those
things and can see how theyintersect.
Often it doesn't take much topeel them apart and figure out
where we're hitting wrong andhow do we rebuild.
It takes work and it takes aplan, but you got to commit and
(27:42):
then do.
Dr. Pelè (27:44):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
In fact, you've just describedpretty much what I do with my
software, because I think whatyou're really saying is you
can't just click your fingersand it happens.
There's got to be a process ofculture building that happens
over time, and employeesadopting and becoming these new
(28:06):
sets of behaviors and maybe evenvalues that the leader is
pushing into the reality of theorganization.
I happen to do that throughsoftware, but I love something
that you've got on your website.
Your website is calledClearlyThencom.
I would love to know what youmean by ClearlyThen.
(28:29):
I bet you there's a storybehind that.
Jonathan Bennett (28:32):
Yeah, that's funny.
There is a story I don't knowif it's a super deep one, but
it's hard to name companies.
It's actually hard.
It's hard to think of a nameand get the website URL, yeah,
correct, it's really tough.
So when I was brainstorming so Isaw my company, the management
(28:54):
consulting company I referencedearly out about two years ago.
I knew in my heart of heartsthe next thing for me was I just
wanted to practice by myself.
I had lots of employees and Ifelt like I'd done that and I
really just wanted somethingsimpler.
I wanted just to work by myselfand for myself and have lots of
partnerships and a wonderfulnetwork, and I'm blessed to have
(29:17):
those things in place.
But at the time I was trying tothink of what do I call this?
And I was reminded when I wasmy wife reminded me when we were
in university, we had thislittle joke we were both in
English and we wrote a bajillionessays and we had this
shorthand that happened betweenthe two of us, which happens in
(29:39):
couples all the time, which waslike how close are you to
finishing the essay before wecan go out with our friends, or
whatever?
And it became are you atclearly comma then comma, which
meant are you at the beginningof the final paragraph?
And so it was like where areyou?
And you're like I'm still a bitaway from clearly comma then
(30:00):
comma.
And that became a kind of thingthat we would say and I thought
, here I am in kind of likemaybe the second, last or the
last act of my career, and itfelt like I'm at the clearly
comma then comma stage of I feellike I know what I'm doing and
I feel like I know what I needto articulate and wrap up and
help people with, which feelslike a version of the final
(30:22):
paragraph.
So that's where the name camefrom.
Dr. Pelè (30:26):
You know, what's interesting about that is you
got to tell that story becausethat's where a lot of leaders
are, that's where the leadersthat you're talking with.
They're right there.
It's the clearly, then clearly.
Then can I say it in Australianaccent Clearly yeah, you can
totally.
Jonathan Bennett (30:41):
Yeah, clearly Right.
Dr. Pelè (30:42):
Yeah, oh, that's funny .
So you know, tell us a littlebit about what you're working on
right now, what you're excitedto share and how people can get
ahold of you online.
Jonathan Bennett (30:54):
Yeah, sure, so I do a couple of things.
So I do one on one, executivecoaching a few times a year.
I'll run a group.
Usually it's invitation only.
Best place to reach me is onLinkedIn.
I am a real human and I respondto DMs Pretty pretty good.
I'm strong administratively,which so I'm, you know, I'm good
(31:19):
at getting back to people andyou know, if you're a leader
that is, you know, think wouldbenefit from some time with me,
feel free to reach out.
I always like to spend sometime with people before I work
with them, just to get to knowthem, and you know, there's
never any charge to having atrial session, so I always do
that.
So LinkedIn is usually the bestyou know.
(31:40):
Obviously also, you can readlots about me and listen to
other stuff I've done on mywebsite, which is clearly
thencom, and other things thatI'm excited about doing.
I love being on podcasts.
I write a lot, I blog a lot, Ipush stuff out on LinkedIn quite
a lot and it's a way for me tojust keep processing.
(32:02):
And one of the things aboutworking by your and for yourself
is that you know you haven'tgot any colleagues and so you've
got all this stuff in your headand what are you going to do
with it?
And one of the things I've foundthat helps is to write, and so
I push out stuff on LinkedIn andI enjoy that.
I enjoy the engagement that Iget there, but I also just enjoy
the kind of the brain dump andthe sort of formulating of my
(32:27):
thoughts.
Dr. Pelè (32:29):
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with you more For me.
I love meeting new people onpodcasts because they help me
recharge my brain.
They you know I speak only withpeople who teach me something,
and you've been one of my greatteachers.
I want to say thank you so muchfor having been a guest on the
Profitable Happiness Podcast.
Jonathan Bennett (32:49):
Thank you so much.
Dr. Pelè (32:52):
Thanks for tuning in to the Profitable Happiness
Podcast.
For more episodes, visitDrPalletcom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
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