November 14, 2023 • 32 mins
Do you want to discover the secret recipe to align company and employee needs and create a harmonious and profitable work environment?
Pull up a chair because today's guest, Paul ter Wal, author and president of the Virtual Speakers Association International, is here to share his transformational journey and insights on just that.
Whether you're a CEO of a Fortune 500 company or a small start-up, Paul's principles are key to cultivating a culture of employee happiness and company profitability.
To connect with Paul ter Wal, visit:
Website: https://paulterwal.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulterwal/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Pelè (00:00):
Hello happy people.
Welcome to the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr Pelèwith the Profitable Happiness
Podcast, and today it is mypleasure to be interviewing, all
the way from the Netherlands,Paul ter Wal, who is an author
(00:21):
of the book no More Excuses.
He is the president at VirtualSpeakers Association
International.
Paul ter Wal is the guy whosays happiness makes money, and
I just can't wait to learn more.
How are you doing today, Paul?
Paul ter Wal (00:37):
Dr Pelè, great to be with you and I'm doing really
well, especially now.
Dr. Pelè (00:43):
So, paul, we were talking about your topic and
just how much passion both of usobviously have for it, and you
know, when you say happinessmakes money, there are people
who go huh.
And then there are people whogo, oh my gosh.
That just makes no sense, andwe both know it has something to
do with a lack of definitionsout there about what happiness
(01:05):
really is.
But if you can help us alongthis path, let's start with this
idea of what challenges youdeal with in companies.
That makes it important for usto tell people happiness makes
money.
What's the problem?
Paul ter Wal (01:19):
Well, what I noticed over the last 40 years
I'm working more than 40 yearsthat we still address human
beings in organizations as beinghuman resources.
It means that it's not thatwe're not friendly to them that
we don't see what they need, butthey're interchangeable If
(01:46):
somebody goes off, oh, we willhire somebody new.
So what I see in a lot ofcompanies that there is no
alignment between core values,those of the organization and
those of the human beings thatwork in that organizations.
What you see, then, that thereis no accountability between
(02:10):
what I want as an organizationand what human beings want for
themselves.
If there is no alignment, thereis a problem.
And then sick leave goes up.
Attrition is down.
Quiet quitting started.
One of the favorite words nowin the Netherlands as well we
(02:31):
first call it precent is nowit's quiet quitting.
People aren't that productiveanymore.
They come to work, they spendtheir hours with productivity
and engagement, and that's whatyou and I mean with happiness.
Yes not a guru happiness.
It's the firm, solid engagementthat people should have If they
(02:57):
want to work in yourorganization, and I see that a
lot of companies are sufferingthere.
That's how can we increaseengagement and, with that,
profitability.
Dr. Pelè (03:11):
Wow, and you know, I love the way you've made this
almost.
You've put some perspective onsomething that a lot of people
forget Organizations are made ofthe leaders, who want results
for the company, and theemployees, who want the results
for the company.
But it has to go through whatthey want for themselves and, as
(03:31):
you said, when there is analignment between what the
company needs and what theemployees needs, that's when you
get happiness making money.
I just love the way you'vepositioned those two things.
And you know, I would love toknow, paul, how did you arrive
here?
How did you become the guy whois so passionate about this
topic that you've written booksabout it?
(03:51):
You're a leading voice and anauthority on this.
How did that?
What's your story?
Paul ter Wal (03:56):
Well, to be honest , I studied law.
I started 42 years ago as alawyer and I did it in social
security.
So what I did?
If somebody got ill, we gavethose people money, because we
have an amazing social securitysystem in the Netherlands still
(04:17):
now.
If you get ill, the first yearyou will get 100% of your income
and the second year 70%, andthat's still 10 years of extra
allowance.
So we want to take care ofhuman beings.
But when I started working I wasalways at the back end and I
(04:39):
was in conflict and illnessesand that kind of negative stuff
and I want to be on the frontside.
What's happening there?
That it goes wrong, that peopleget in a conflict and that they
call in sick and stay away.
What's happening there?
And then I met a guy, samSilverstein, who is from St
(05:04):
Louis in the US, and he told meabout all values and
non-negotiables.
And I like the termnon-negotiable because if you
know your non-negotiables, youcan't negotiate about it.
It's who you are, it's yourpurpose, it's what you do.
(05:27):
The choices you make are basedon your core values, your
non-negotiables.
And I was looking at it and Ithought let's go to the website
of my own company and find whereour core values as a company
are.
Well, they were hiddensomewhere in about us.
(05:48):
And then who is the team?
And then you see our corevalues Now I have them on the
front page.
Come to the website.
You see who are we yes, that'sus.
And then you can find out,because you are visiting my
website, you have a purpose withlooking for me and you find out
(06:11):
happiness, make money, what ishe talking about?
And you see the four corevalues and you think, okay, now
I get it and that's what Iwanted to have and to change for
the world.
So I help organizations to findthat core values that are
linking, that are aligning withthose of the company, and if new
(06:35):
people come in, they need tofit in those family core values.
Dr. Pelè (06:40):
If you don't fit in.
Paul ter Wal (06:42):
Don't join us, because enough companies where
you can work, these are ourfamily core values.
Well, if you go to a bank, aninsurance company, it's
difficult to find core valuesbecause it's all about money.
An organization is about humanbeings with the same goal, with
(07:08):
the same reason to work there,and that's like you said make
results, create stuff, make theshareholders happy, it's all
fine, I don't mind, but peopleneed to be fine as well.
Dr. Pelè (07:24):
I love that.
So you talk about the idea ofvalue to profit, and now you've
identified this idea of what areour core values, and let's use
that as a gate, frankly, todecide who is part of our family
.
I think that's powerful.
Could you maybe explain to usexactly what you mean by value
(07:47):
to profit, because I think, Isuspect anyway, that this is
getting closer to your idea ofhappiness makes money.
Tell us what is value to profit, your concept of it.
Paul ter Wal (07:58):
Value to profit is .
If I know the core values of anorganization, it will set my
mission and vision and strategyfor the company as a total.
If I live the values of theorganization, if I get the
mission, the vision, I know whywe have this strategy and I
(08:21):
understand the plans, I can bemuch more effective as a human
being, as an employee.
So my employee experience willincrease, that our work harder,
productivity goes up, sick leavegoes down.
We will talk about it in theseven keys of engagement.
(08:43):
It's those keys that give youmore profit in the big sense.
I call it the ripple of impact,not a return on investment.
The ripple of impact, how muchripple can you, as a solo
employee, give to your company?
And how is it spreading towardsmy colleagues, my friends who
(09:08):
are working with me?
And I don't see them as enemiesbecause we are working together
.
We are one big family and ifthat ripple of impact is there,
then profitability of theorganization goes up.
So it's the value where itstarts and it leads to the
profit at the end, and it can beprofit for everybody, not only
(09:30):
the shareholders, for all thestakeholders.
It should be profitable.
Dr. Pelè (09:36):
Wow, you know, I just wrote this down the ripple of
impact that is.
I apologize if you don't likeflattery, but to me that's
genius, because it is soimportant for us to change first
what people believe andunderstand before we can change
anything else.
And everybody's out heretalking about return on
(09:58):
investment, as you said, andagain, return on investment is
for who?
For the company, whereas rippleof impact is for the employees.
They drive that and I love thefact that again, you're driving
these two, these two differentstories, in a company and you're
trying to make that a limit.
You know, Paul, I would love toknow, in your travels and your
(10:20):
work, if you were to say whathas been the reason why people
don't just jump into this?
You know, is there like amindset block or something?
I mean because this, I'mexcited by these ideas, but not
everyone seems to have heardthese and internalized them, why
?
Paul ter Wal (10:38):
Well, I think one of the biggest issues is the way
we look at human resources.
If you look at the Anglosection way of organizing, you
have the CEO on top and above.
The CEO is the shareholder.
The shareholder is telling theCEO make more money and the.
(11:01):
Ceo, supported by the CEO, theCFO, CHRO, all the C's.
Tell those managers below makemore profit for us.
Dr. Pelè (11:11):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (11:12):
So we're kicking down.
Dr. Pelè (11:14):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (11:15):
That of what we call more the European way, the
Rhineland way, is that you aresupporting the people, you're
pushing them into your direction, you're standing behind them,
facilitating them, supportingthem.
But a lot of CEOs want to be onthe highest level on the
(11:38):
building and they want to havetheir own elevator going up and
down for them.
They want their car parked nextto the main entrance.
Well then, you're the numberone, but you're not making the
money.
There are those professionalswho are working on that work
floor, as we call it.
Well, the CEO should be part ofthe work floor.
Dr. Pelè (12:01):
Yes.
Paul ter Wal (12:02):
Of course he's making different decisions.
He is more responsible than alot of stuff.
That's why they can earnmillions, I don't mind.
But look at those employees asthe real professionals, and
whether it's in the podcast,whether it's in the restaurant,
whether it's a cleaning lady,they are the professionals.
(12:24):
Support them, facilitate andask them that question how can I
support you?
Most of the time, ceos aretelling what to do.
Dr. Pelè (12:38):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (12:38):
Instead of asking, giving those people autonomy,
how can I support you?
What do you need?
Yes, to perform better.
That's a tap on the shoulder,that's being friendly, that's
feedback, that's dealing withpurpose.
So what I like to see is thatthe CEO goes down, sits behind
(13:02):
the first office, has his officethere.
That he can watch who comes in,who goes out Not on the top
level in the sky, in the cloudslovely, no downstairs.
That's where you're supposed tosit because you are responsible
for the whole organization, soyou need to feel what's going on
(13:26):
in that organization and youknow, I know, and a lot of
listeners will know the CEO isfar up in the sky.
Wow.
So you're disconnected to thoseprofessionals.
You saw it in the auto industryin the US.
People are disconnecting withthe working floor.
(13:47):
We saw the writers in Hollywood,they didn't feel listened to.
They believed that they didn'tbelong anymore.
They lost their purpose.
And for me, it's about autonomy, belonging the right
competencies and sharing thepurpose Wow.
(14:08):
And purpose is connected toculture, is connected to core
values, to non-negotiables.
So if we share the purpose ofthe company, which is in the
mission and the vision, wesupport people with the right
competencies.
They belong to our family andwe ask them the question how can
(14:33):
I support you?
What do you need from?
Dr. Pelè (14:35):
me.
Paul ter Wal (14:37):
Then that's four questions and that's more than
you need to ask.
That's simple and that makes itdifficult.
Dr. Pelè (14:46):
Yes, yeah yeah, sometimes things look easy, but
they're absolutely not easy.
Tell us how.
A lot of people rightly solisten to almost anything with
some degree of skepticism andthey want to know details about
how certain things can actuallybe solved.
(15:08):
Do you have a process, aformula, a five-step plan, a
12-step plan or whatever, oryour seven-step plan?
I like seven, that's a bignumber.
Paul ter Wal (15:19):
Seven is a better figure.
Dr. Pelè (15:21):
It's a magical number.
I like that.
What is your seven keys ofengagement?
What is your plan for solvingthis problem in the details?
Paul ter Wal (15:29):
Well, what we do is start a discussion with
C-suite and I prefer the wholemanagement team to talk about
core values what are your corevalues?
And then I ask them for thecompany and for themselves.
And a lot of people will havesome clue what the core values
(15:54):
of the company are because inthe onboarding process they
heard it somewhere on theinternet, but they never discuss
it.
A lot of people have no cluewhat they stand for themselves.
So I asked the top suite whatare your core values?
What are your rules?
(16:15):
What is that feeling in yourstomach that you make your
decisions based on?
How can I hold you accountablefor your core values?
Then I need to know them.
If you know your core values andthe core values of the
organization are designed, thenI can see how are they aligned.
(16:36):
And then we go to the next step.
Is the mission and the visionaligned to the core values as
well?
If so, the strategy is thataligned as well?
And then you go into the plansand then the next level,
management, steps in and isgoing to the teams and say hey
(16:57):
guys, these are ournon-negotiables as company, our
plans.
Is there still alignmentbetween what we do in our plans
and the core values.
So it's an open discussion whatyou can do at any team meeting,
and sometimes I want to havethose seven steps that people
(17:19):
need to do, but sometimes it'sjust having a good conversation
with a cup of coffee, and if youfind out that somebody isn't
aligned, don't fire them.
Start a conversation.
Don't go out for a walk side byside, not opposite, because then
(17:41):
I look in angry eyes becauseyou're not happy with.
Dr. Pelè (17:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Paul ter Wal (17:46):
Side by side.
I can ask you what's motivatingyou, what's keeping you busy?
Why aren't you performing theway I thought you were?
So it's about having that openmind, that open view.
We call it positive psychology,open questions and of course we
(18:08):
have a model for it.
We call it the job demandresources model.
It's worldwide accepted.
It's from three Dutchprofessors Bakker, schouwvelijk,
de Maruti.
They created it and it's wellaccepted because it's looking at
what is giving you energy andwhat is taking away your energy,
(18:31):
not only in business life butin your personal life as well.
Because if we can make thenegative side smaller or the
green one, the energy give usbigger, then engagement within
the organization goes up andthen profitability will go up.
(18:53):
So first the questions aboutcore values, mission, vision,
strategy.
Then we switch to plans andfrom plans we go directly into
what is giving you energy andwhat is taking that much energy
of you.
If we design that, then we cansee that a lovely people will go
(19:20):
into it, dive into it and say,hey, but if those are the core
values, those are the corevalues, these are my core values
working here.
So engagement goes up and withthat profitability.
And there is so much researchby Harvard, by Oxford, and we
(19:42):
see all the time thatprofitability goes up.
And if you put $1 intoinvesting in engagement, $4 will
come out.
Dr. Pelè (19:52):
Wow.
Paul ter Wal (19:53):
That's the outcome .
Dr. Pelè (19:54):
That's big.
Paul ter Wal (19:56):
That's a great stat.
That's why I give it to you,because we think, oh, then we
need to be polite and we need tohave coffee and then need to do
all those funny things that yousee on Google and that.
No, no, it's not about fancyoffices.
Dr. Pelè (20:17):
And no, it's about ping pong tables in the foyer.
Paul ter Wal (20:21):
Oh, I love it that it's there, but it's only there
if you are engaged and you aremore engaged.
So it's not on the outside,it's on your inside.
Dr. Pelè (20:34):
Yes.
Paul ter Wal (20:34):
You feel that alignment with your organization
, you will work harder, you willbe more productive.
20% that's one of the keys.
Dr. Pelè (20:46):
Paul, I would be interested in your perspective
on, I think, what I believe isone of the biggest challenges
that leaders or even employeeshave to grapple with to solve
the problems you've justdescribed with your methodology
or with any methodology, andit's for personal and
(21:08):
professional life, and that isthe question of relationships.
Paul ter Wal (21:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Pelè (21:13):
You know, I have to tell you if you've ever, or if
anyone listening has ever, had ateenage child.
As they begin to go throughtheir changes and their need for
autonomy and the differentthings they want to achieve, and
you start to find that yourgoals as a parent are different
from their goals as a teenager,you start wondering how do I
(21:37):
build a relationship, even withsomeone I've lived with for the
past 15, 20, sorry, 15, 17, 18years?
How do I build a relationship?
It's so hard, even though it'sright in front of you.
Paul ter Wal (21:49):
Yeah, and how do you do that?
Dr. Pelè (21:51):
How do you do that?
Because that's where everythingstarts, isn't it?
Paul ter Wal (21:55):
Absolutely, and it starts again with asking
questions.
I've been there.
My daughter is 37, my son 35.
So I've been there.
Dr. Pelè (22:06):
You've gone through that process, yeah.
Paul ter Wal (22:09):
Grandchild, who's now 10, so she will get into it.
Yeah, we're all biased with ourown solutions.
Hmm and we need to let that go.
Give them that autonomy.
Dr. Pelè (22:23):
Yes.
Paul ter Wal (22:24):
Ask them hey, you still belong to our family, even
if we disagree.
Yes you belong to the family.
How can I support you?
Dr. Pelè (22:34):
Oh, love that.
Paul ter Wal (22:35):
Densis, how can I?
Support you yes instead oftelling you need to be, tell you
, I've been there, I tried donethat.
Dr. Pelè (22:49):
And then the funny thing.
The funny thing is thateverything you've just described
even though it's from apersonal Family environment is
precisely what Leaders no matterhow much, how big your company
is or how small have to thinkabout these relationships.
So I'm so glad you talked aboutthat, because that's how you
(23:09):
make money.
That's how we introduce theidea that Happiness because
relationships build happinessfor us makes money.
So I guess my question for youis how do you make the link for
anybody who's still a skepticabout About the idea that
happiness makes money?
How do you make the link forthem so that they know it is
their job To go connect withemployees, help them build a
(23:31):
culture that will deliverhappiness and therefore make
money?
How do you get that juicestarted in a company?
Paul ter Wal (23:38):
well, sometimes I use animation videos.
I have one in english onyoutube.
Oh wow, this whole story inlesson, isn't that amazing.
Dr. Pelè (23:51):
Isn't that cool yeah.
Paul ter Wal (23:53):
We are talking 30 minutes.
People can watch it and theysee oh yeah, that's me.
Uh, because if you look,whether you're a manager or a
leader or just an employee,we're human beings and we love
to, to belong to a group,whether that's private or it's
(24:13):
in in work environment.
Yes if that alignment is therebetween human beings, and that's
the toughest to create but it'syes.
This role that you can getbecause you only need to listen,
and I think the biggest problemfor managers Different than
(24:35):
leaders Is how to listen in areal good way.
Dr. Pelè (24:41):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (24:42):
Stop telling, stop listening.
Dr. Pelè (24:46):
Oh, stop telling, start listening.
Ha ha, I gotta take these tipsand write them down.
Paul ter Wal (24:53):
Well, you know it that you will as a manager.
You you get a message from thetop and they say we want to
increase the avatar with 5% Inthe next quarter.
You need to have a higherproductivity.
We want to increase with 10%.
And the next step you do as amanager is tell your employees
(25:18):
what I need to do and you forgetabout work, pressure, work,
stress, that private line withfinancial issues, health issues
in the family.
We forget about it and we tellthem like they are machines.
Yes well, it means back istelling we are not machines, we
(25:40):
are just a group of human beings.
Dr. Pelè (25:42):
Hmm.
Paul ter Wal (25:43):
So to stop listening to Taylor and the old
McKinsey and start listening tomeans better.
Who is telling hey, I'm not ahuman resource, I'm a human
being, treat me like a humanbeing, treat me like you want to
be treated by your boss.
(26:03):
And if we start listening tothat voice that we all have, we
can do it better.
We should do it better.
We can help one another, makingno more excuses, make more
profit, make more fun.
Dr. Pelè (26:21):
Yeah, I love that.
Paul ter Wal (26:24):
I love it.
Dr. Pelè (26:25):
I think everybody who's in a leadership or
management position should haveon their wall.
I'm not a human resource.
I am a human being, because ifemployees see that they are
committed committed personallyand professionally to building
that kind of a relationshipbetween leadership and employees
, everything starts from there.
So it's such an exciting topic.
(26:48):
Paul, can you tell us whatyou're excited about right now?
I mean, you've written books,you've got a lot of
accomplishments under your beltin these many years you've been
in this field.
What are you excited about, andhow can people best find you
online?
Paul ter Wal (27:04):
What I love is to tell this story.
Yeah, to go into organizationsthrough the computer or life.
Life is much more vibrant,because then you feel the entity
.
Dr. Pelè (27:17):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (27:18):
We learn to do it on Zoom and that kind of stuff.
Dr. Pelè (27:22):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (27:23):
I love to tell my story Because one of the stories
I tell I walk twice.
The Camino that is fromsomewhere in Europe to Santiago,
to Compostela.
That's a pilgrimage, and Caminois called the Way and there is
a great movie, an American movie, called the Way.
It's about that walk.
(27:45):
And what people do while walkingthere.
They find that purpose, theyfind their spirituality again.
So if you're not religious butyou walk the Camino, you walk
your way, you find what'simportant for you and I tell
(28:05):
that story.
If I have a 45 minute keynoteor a workshop, I tell that story
at the start that I started inthe South of France and the
first day I had to cross thePyrenees and it is 500 miles in
total from where I started and Idid it in 28 days.
And then you start the storyabout purpose and finding your
(28:29):
core values and why it isimportant that you have that
walk instead of destination.
A lot of leaders see thedestination.
They see Santiago, st Jacob,they wanna go there.
No, it's about the route, theway you're walking, every step
(28:50):
you make and we sing songs aboutit, every step I make.
It's about the walk, becauseyou connect with human being and
you hear their stories andyou're not important anymore,
you're just part of thepilgrimage and that's what I
(29:11):
like to share, because thisstory is a pilgrimage.
We need to share your story.
Profitable happiness, my story,happiness makes money.
It's so connected.
It's a story that we need totell and a lot of leaders will
know that we don't have enoughemployees in the world anymore,
not in the Western world.
(29:32):
So there is shortage, so we wantthem to be less ill, much more
productive.
Don't leave all that kind ofstuff.
That's what it's all about.
So the result can be higherprofitability, but it's walk the
talk.
Do what you need to do, listento those people.
(29:54):
That's their journey, that'stheir pilgrimage, and I love to
share that story.
Dr. Pelè (29:59):
You know I forgot that a podcast could give me movie
recommendations too.
Guess what I'm watching thisweekend.
The way, the way I just foundit online with Martin Sheen and
Emilio Estevez, his son.
I can't wait.
You know, you are just such abreath of fresh air.
You got all these great storiesand ideas.
(30:20):
Paul, how can people find youonline?
What's the best way to connectwith you?
Paul ter Wal (30:25):
I always say the best way is go to LinkedIn type
in my name and if you see mypicture then you know that's the
right one.
I have behind my name CSP.
That means certified speakingprofessional.
I've been the world presidentof all the speakers in the world
(30:45):
.
Now I'm for virtualorganization, but what can find
me on YouTube?
I have a full keynote that issix months old.
It's taken in South Africa, inCape Town.
Dr. Pelè (31:00):
Oh, wow.
Paul ter Wal (31:01):
Isn't that amazing ?
Yeah, in Cape Town telling yourstory so people can listen the
whole 30 minutes or a short one,and my website is easy
PaulTowallcom.
Dr. Pelè (31:15):
Okay, awesome.
I will have some of those links, especially the LinkedIn and
your website on the show notesand some of the other ones you
mentioned.
Paul, thank you so much forbeing an awesome, educational
and fun guest on the ProfitableHappiness podcast.
Paul ter Wal (31:35):
Dr Tai-Le, it was great having being your guest.
I loved it.
Dr. Pelè (31:40):
Thank you, We'll talk soon.
Thanks for tuning in to theProfitable Happiness podcast.
For more episodes, visitdrpalaycom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
Hello happy people.
Welcome to the ProfitableHappiness Podcast.
Hello everyone, this is Dr Pelèwith the Profitable Happiness
Podcast, and today it is mypleasure to be interviewing, all
the way from the Netherlands,Paul ter Wal, who is an author
(00:21):
of the book no More Excuses.
He is the president at VirtualSpeakers Association
International.
Paul ter Wal is the guy whosays happiness makes money, and
I just can't wait to learn more.
How are you doing today, Paul?
Paul ter Wal (00:37):
Dr Pelè, great to be with you and I'm doing really
well, especially now.
Dr. Pelè (00:43):
So, paul, we were talking about your topic and
just how much passion both of usobviously have for it, and you
know, when you say happinessmakes money, there are people
who go huh.
And then there are people whogo, oh my gosh.
That just makes no sense, andwe both know it has something to
do with a lack of definitionsout there about what happiness
(01:05):
really is.
But if you can help us alongthis path, let's start with this
idea of what challenges youdeal with in companies.
That makes it important for usto tell people happiness makes
money.
What's the problem?
Paul ter Wal (01:19):
Well, what I noticed over the last 40 years
I'm working more than 40 yearsthat we still address human
beings in organizations as beinghuman resources.
It means that it's not thatwe're not friendly to them that
we don't see what they need, butthey're interchangeable If
(01:46):
somebody goes off, oh, we willhire somebody new.
So what I see in a lot ofcompanies that there is no
alignment between core values,those of the organization and
those of the human beings thatwork in that organizations.
What you see, then, that thereis no accountability between
(02:10):
what I want as an organizationand what human beings want for
themselves.
If there is no alignment, thereis a problem.
And then sick leave goes up.
Attrition is down.
Quiet quitting started.
One of the favorite words nowin the Netherlands as well we
(02:31):
first call it precent is nowit's quiet quitting.
People aren't that productiveanymore.
They come to work, they spendtheir hours with productivity
and engagement, and that's whatyou and I mean with happiness.
Yes not a guru happiness.
It's the firm, solid engagementthat people should have If they
(02:57):
want to work in yourorganization, and I see that a
lot of companies are sufferingthere.
That's how can we increaseengagement and, with that,
profitability.
Dr. Pelè (03:11):
Wow, and you know, I love the way you've made this
almost.
You've put some perspective onsomething that a lot of people
forget Organizations are made ofthe leaders, who want results
for the company, and theemployees, who want the results
for the company.
But it has to go through whatthey want for themselves and, as
(03:31):
you said, when there is analignment between what the
company needs and what theemployees needs, that's when you
get happiness making money.
I just love the way you'vepositioned those two things.
And you know, I would love toknow, paul, how did you arrive
here?
How did you become the guy whois so passionate about this
topic that you've written booksabout it?
(03:51):
You're a leading voice and anauthority on this.
How did that?
What's your story?
Paul ter Wal (03:56):
Well, to be honest , I studied law.
I started 42 years ago as alawyer and I did it in social
security.
So what I did?
If somebody got ill, we gavethose people money, because we
have an amazing social securitysystem in the Netherlands still
(04:17):
now.
If you get ill, the first yearyou will get 100% of your income
and the second year 70%, andthat's still 10 years of extra
allowance.
So we want to take care ofhuman beings.
But when I started working I wasalways at the back end and I
(04:39):
was in conflict and illnessesand that kind of negative stuff
and I want to be on the frontside.
What's happening there?
That it goes wrong, that peopleget in a conflict and that they
call in sick and stay away.
What's happening there?
And then I met a guy, samSilverstein, who is from St
(05:04):
Louis in the US, and he told meabout all values and
non-negotiables.
And I like the termnon-negotiable because if you
know your non-negotiables, youcan't negotiate about it.
It's who you are, it's yourpurpose, it's what you do.
(05:27):
The choices you make are basedon your core values, your
non-negotiables.
And I was looking at it and Ithought let's go to the website
of my own company and find whereour core values as a company
are.
Well, they were hiddensomewhere in about us.
(05:48):
And then who is the team?
And then you see our corevalues Now I have them on the
front page.
Come to the website.
You see who are we yes, that'sus.
And then you can find out,because you are visiting my
website, you have a purpose withlooking for me and you find out
(06:11):
happiness, make money, what ishe talking about?
And you see the four corevalues and you think, okay, now
I get it and that's what Iwanted to have and to change for
the world.
So I help organizations to findthat core values that are
linking, that are aligning withthose of the company, and if new
(06:35):
people come in, they need tofit in those family core values.
Dr. Pelè (06:40):
If you don't fit in.
Paul ter Wal (06:42):
Don't join us, because enough companies where
you can work, these are ourfamily core values.
Well, if you go to a bank, aninsurance company, it's
difficult to find core valuesbecause it's all about money.
An organization is about humanbeings with the same goal, with
(07:08):
the same reason to work there,and that's like you said make
results, create stuff, make theshareholders happy, it's all
fine, I don't mind, but peopleneed to be fine as well.
Dr. Pelè (07:24):
I love that.
So you talk about the idea ofvalue to profit, and now you've
identified this idea of what areour core values, and let's use
that as a gate, frankly, todecide who is part of our family
.
I think that's powerful.
Could you maybe explain to usexactly what you mean by value
(07:47):
to profit, because I think, Isuspect anyway, that this is
getting closer to your idea ofhappiness makes money.
Tell us what is value to profit, your concept of it.
Paul ter Wal (07:58):
Value to profit is .
If I know the core values of anorganization, it will set my
mission and vision and strategyfor the company as a total.
If I live the values of theorganization, if I get the
mission, the vision, I know whywe have this strategy and I
(08:21):
understand the plans, I can bemuch more effective as a human
being, as an employee.
So my employee experience willincrease, that our work harder,
productivity goes up, sick leavegoes down.
We will talk about it in theseven keys of engagement.
(08:43):
It's those keys that give youmore profit in the big sense.
I call it the ripple of impact,not a return on investment.
The ripple of impact, how muchripple can you, as a solo
employee, give to your company?
And how is it spreading towardsmy colleagues, my friends who
(09:08):
are working with me?
And I don't see them as enemiesbecause we are working together
.
We are one big family and ifthat ripple of impact is there,
then profitability of theorganization goes up.
So it's the value where itstarts and it leads to the
profit at the end, and it can beprofit for everybody, not only
(09:30):
the shareholders, for all thestakeholders.
It should be profitable.
Dr. Pelè (09:36):
Wow, you know, I just wrote this down the ripple of
impact that is.
I apologize if you don't likeflattery, but to me that's
genius, because it is soimportant for us to change first
what people believe andunderstand before we can change
anything else.
And everybody's out heretalking about return on
(09:58):
investment, as you said, andagain, return on investment is
for who?
For the company, whereas rippleof impact is for the employees.
They drive that and I love thefact that again, you're driving
these two, these two differentstories, in a company and you're
trying to make that a limit.
You know, Paul, I would love toknow, in your travels and your
(10:20):
work, if you were to say whathas been the reason why people
don't just jump into this?
You know, is there like amindset block or something?
I mean because this, I'mexcited by these ideas, but not
everyone seems to have heardthese and internalized them, why
?
Paul ter Wal (10:38):
Well, I think one of the biggest issues is the way
we look at human resources.
If you look at the Anglosection way of organizing, you
have the CEO on top and above.
The CEO is the shareholder.
The shareholder is telling theCEO make more money and the.
(11:01):
Ceo, supported by the CEO, theCFO, CHRO, all the C's.
Tell those managers below makemore profit for us.
Dr. Pelè (11:11):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (11:12):
So we're kicking down.
Dr. Pelè (11:14):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (11:15):
That of what we call more the European way, the
Rhineland way, is that you aresupporting the people, you're
pushing them into your direction, you're standing behind them,
facilitating them, supportingthem.
But a lot of CEOs want to be onthe highest level on the
(11:38):
building and they want to havetheir own elevator going up and
down for them.
They want their car parked nextto the main entrance.
Well then, you're the numberone, but you're not making the
money.
There are those professionalswho are working on that work
floor, as we call it.
Well, the CEO should be part ofthe work floor.
Dr. Pelè (12:01):
Yes.
Paul ter Wal (12:02):
Of course he's making different decisions.
He is more responsible than alot of stuff.
That's why they can earnmillions, I don't mind.
But look at those employees asthe real professionals, and
whether it's in the podcast,whether it's in the restaurant,
whether it's a cleaning lady,they are the professionals.
(12:24):
Support them, facilitate andask them that question how can I
support you?
Most of the time, ceos aretelling what to do.
Dr. Pelè (12:38):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (12:38):
Instead of asking, giving those people autonomy,
how can I support you?
What do you need?
Yes, to perform better.
That's a tap on the shoulder,that's being friendly, that's
feedback, that's dealing withpurpose.
So what I like to see is thatthe CEO goes down, sits behind
(13:02):
the first office, has his officethere.
That he can watch who comes in,who goes out Not on the top
level in the sky, in the cloudslovely, no downstairs.
That's where you're supposed tosit because you are responsible
for the whole organization, soyou need to feel what's going on
(13:26):
in that organization and youknow, I know, and a lot of
listeners will know the CEO isfar up in the sky.
Wow.
So you're disconnected to thoseprofessionals.
You saw it in the auto industryin the US.
People are disconnecting withthe working floor.
(13:47):
We saw the writers in Hollywood,they didn't feel listened to.
They believed that they didn'tbelong anymore.
They lost their purpose.
And for me, it's about autonomy, belonging the right
competencies and sharing thepurpose Wow.
(14:08):
And purpose is connected toculture, is connected to core
values, to non-negotiables.
So if we share the purpose ofthe company, which is in the
mission and the vision, wesupport people with the right
competencies.
They belong to our family andwe ask them the question how can
(14:33):
I support you?
What do you need from?
Dr. Pelè (14:35):
me.
Paul ter Wal (14:37):
Then that's four questions and that's more than
you need to ask.
That's simple and that makes itdifficult.
Dr. Pelè (14:46):
Yes, yeah yeah, sometimes things look easy, but
they're absolutely not easy.
Tell us how.
A lot of people rightly solisten to almost anything with
some degree of skepticism andthey want to know details about
how certain things can actuallybe solved.
(15:08):
Do you have a process, aformula, a five-step plan, a
12-step plan or whatever, oryour seven-step plan?
I like seven, that's a bignumber.
Paul ter Wal (15:19):
Seven is a better figure.
Dr. Pelè (15:21):
It's a magical number.
I like that.
What is your seven keys ofengagement?
What is your plan for solvingthis problem in the details?
Paul ter Wal (15:29):
Well, what we do is start a discussion with
C-suite and I prefer the wholemanagement team to talk about
core values what are your corevalues?
And then I ask them for thecompany and for themselves.
And a lot of people will havesome clue what the core values
(15:54):
of the company are because inthe onboarding process they
heard it somewhere on theinternet, but they never discuss
it.
A lot of people have no cluewhat they stand for themselves.
So I asked the top suite whatare your core values?
What are your rules?
(16:15):
What is that feeling in yourstomach that you make your
decisions based on?
How can I hold you accountablefor your core values?
Then I need to know them.
If you know your core values andthe core values of the
organization are designed, thenI can see how are they aligned.
(16:36):
And then we go to the next step.
Is the mission and the visionaligned to the core values as
well?
If so, the strategy is thataligned as well?
And then you go into the plansand then the next level,
management, steps in and isgoing to the teams and say hey
(16:57):
guys, these are ournon-negotiables as company, our
plans.
Is there still alignmentbetween what we do in our plans
and the core values.
So it's an open discussion whatyou can do at any team meeting,
and sometimes I want to havethose seven steps that people
(17:19):
need to do, but sometimes it'sjust having a good conversation
with a cup of coffee, and if youfind out that somebody isn't
aligned, don't fire them.
Start a conversation.
Don't go out for a walk side byside, not opposite, because then
(17:41):
I look in angry eyes becauseyou're not happy with.
Dr. Pelè (17:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Paul ter Wal (17:46):
Side by side.
I can ask you what's motivatingyou, what's keeping you busy?
Why aren't you performing theway I thought you were?
So it's about having that openmind, that open view.
We call it positive psychology,open questions and of course we
(18:08):
have a model for it.
We call it the job demandresources model.
It's worldwide accepted.
It's from three Dutchprofessors Bakker, schouwvelijk,
de Maruti.
They created it and it's wellaccepted because it's looking at
what is giving you energy andwhat is taking away your energy,
(18:31):
not only in business life butin your personal life as well.
Because if we can make thenegative side smaller or the
green one, the energy give usbigger, then engagement within
the organization goes up andthen profitability will go up.
(18:53):
So first the questions aboutcore values, mission, vision,
strategy.
Then we switch to plans andfrom plans we go directly into
what is giving you energy andwhat is taking that much energy
of you.
If we design that, then we cansee that a lovely people will go
(19:20):
into it, dive into it and say,hey, but if those are the core
values, those are the corevalues, these are my core values
working here.
So engagement goes up and withthat profitability.
And there is so much researchby Harvard, by Oxford, and we
(19:42):
see all the time thatprofitability goes up.
And if you put $1 intoinvesting in engagement, $4 will
come out.
Dr. Pelè (19:52):
Wow.
Paul ter Wal (19:53):
That's the outcome .
Dr. Pelè (19:54):
That's big.
Paul ter Wal (19:56):
That's a great stat.
That's why I give it to you,because we think, oh, then we
need to be polite and we need tohave coffee and then need to do
all those funny things that yousee on Google and that.
No, no, it's not about fancyoffices.
Dr. Pelè (20:17):
And no, it's about ping pong tables in the foyer.
Paul ter Wal (20:21):
Oh, I love it that it's there, but it's only there
if you are engaged and you aremore engaged.
So it's not on the outside,it's on your inside.
Dr. Pelè (20:34):
Yes.
Paul ter Wal (20:34):
You feel that alignment with your organization
, you will work harder, you willbe more productive.
20% that's one of the keys.
Dr. Pelè (20:46):
Paul, I would be interested in your perspective
on, I think, what I believe isone of the biggest challenges
that leaders or even employeeshave to grapple with to solve
the problems you've justdescribed with your methodology
or with any methodology, andit's for personal and
(21:08):
professional life, and that isthe question of relationships.
Paul ter Wal (21:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Pelè (21:13):
You know, I have to tell you if you've ever, or if
anyone listening has ever, had ateenage child.
As they begin to go throughtheir changes and their need for
autonomy and the differentthings they want to achieve, and
you start to find that yourgoals as a parent are different
from their goals as a teenager,you start wondering how do I
(21:37):
build a relationship, even withsomeone I've lived with for the
past 15, 20, sorry, 15, 17, 18years?
How do I build a relationship?
It's so hard, even though it'sright in front of you.
Paul ter Wal (21:49):
Yeah, and how do you do that?
Dr. Pelè (21:51):
How do you do that?
Because that's where everythingstarts, isn't it?
Paul ter Wal (21:55):
Absolutely, and it starts again with asking
questions.
I've been there.
My daughter is 37, my son 35.
So I've been there.
Dr. Pelè (22:06):
You've gone through that process, yeah.
Paul ter Wal (22:09):
Grandchild, who's now 10, so she will get into it.
Yeah, we're all biased with ourown solutions.
Hmm and we need to let that go.
Give them that autonomy.
Dr. Pelè (22:23):
Yes.
Paul ter Wal (22:24):
Ask them hey, you still belong to our family, even
if we disagree.
Yes you belong to the family.
How can I support you?
Dr. Pelè (22:34):
Oh, love that.
Paul ter Wal (22:35):
Densis, how can I?
Support you yes instead oftelling you need to be, tell you
, I've been there, I tried donethat.
Dr. Pelè (22:49):
And then the funny thing.
The funny thing is thateverything you've just described
even though it's from apersonal Family environment is
precisely what Leaders no matterhow much, how big your company
is or how small have to thinkabout these relationships.
So I'm so glad you talked aboutthat, because that's how you
(23:09):
make money.
That's how we introduce theidea that Happiness because
relationships build happinessfor us makes money.
So I guess my question for youis how do you make the link for
anybody who's still a skepticabout About the idea that
happiness makes money?
How do you make the link forthem so that they know it is
their job To go connect withemployees, help them build a
(23:31):
culture that will deliverhappiness and therefore make
money?
How do you get that juicestarted in a company?
Paul ter Wal (23:38):
well, sometimes I use animation videos.
I have one in english onyoutube.
Oh wow, this whole story inlesson, isn't that amazing.
Dr. Pelè (23:51):
Isn't that cool yeah.
Paul ter Wal (23:53):
We are talking 30 minutes.
People can watch it and theysee oh yeah, that's me.
Uh, because if you look,whether you're a manager or a
leader or just an employee,we're human beings and we love
to, to belong to a group,whether that's private or it's
(24:13):
in in work environment.
Yes if that alignment is therebetween human beings, and that's
the toughest to create but it'syes.
This role that you can getbecause you only need to listen,
and I think the biggest problemfor managers Different than
(24:35):
leaders Is how to listen in areal good way.
Dr. Pelè (24:41):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (24:42):
Stop telling, stop listening.
Dr. Pelè (24:46):
Oh, stop telling, start listening.
Ha ha, I gotta take these tipsand write them down.
Paul ter Wal (24:53):
Well, you know it that you will as a manager.
You you get a message from thetop and they say we want to
increase the avatar with 5% Inthe next quarter.
You need to have a higherproductivity.
We want to increase with 10%.
And the next step you do as amanager is tell your employees
(25:18):
what I need to do and you forgetabout work, pressure, work,
stress, that private line withfinancial issues, health issues
in the family.
We forget about it and we tellthem like they are machines.
Yes well, it means back istelling we are not machines, we
(25:40):
are just a group of human beings.
Dr. Pelè (25:42):
Hmm.
Paul ter Wal (25:43):
So to stop listening to Taylor and the old
McKinsey and start listening tomeans better.
Who is telling hey, I'm not ahuman resource, I'm a human
being, treat me like a humanbeing, treat me like you want to
be treated by your boss.
(26:03):
And if we start listening tothat voice that we all have, we
can do it better.
We should do it better.
We can help one another, makingno more excuses, make more
profit, make more fun.
Dr. Pelè (26:21):
Yeah, I love that.
Paul ter Wal (26:24):
I love it.
Dr. Pelè (26:25):
I think everybody who's in a leadership or
management position should haveon their wall.
I'm not a human resource.
I am a human being, because ifemployees see that they are
committed committed personallyand professionally to building
that kind of a relationshipbetween leadership and employees
, everything starts from there.
So it's such an exciting topic.
(26:48):
Paul, can you tell us whatyou're excited about right now?
I mean, you've written books,you've got a lot of
accomplishments under your beltin these many years you've been
in this field.
What are you excited about, andhow can people best find you
online?
Paul ter Wal (27:04):
What I love is to tell this story.
Yeah, to go into organizationsthrough the computer or life.
Life is much more vibrant,because then you feel the entity
.
Dr. Pelè (27:17):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (27:18):
We learn to do it on Zoom and that kind of stuff.
Dr. Pelè (27:22):
Yeah.
Paul ter Wal (27:23):
I love to tell my story Because one of the stories
I tell I walk twice.
The Camino that is fromsomewhere in Europe to Santiago,
to Compostela.
That's a pilgrimage, and Caminois called the Way and there is
a great movie, an American movie, called the Way.
It's about that walk.
(27:45):
And what people do while walkingthere.
They find that purpose, theyfind their spirituality again.
So if you're not religious butyou walk the Camino, you walk
your way, you find what'simportant for you and I tell
(28:05):
that story.
If I have a 45 minute keynoteor a workshop, I tell that story
at the start that I started inthe South of France and the
first day I had to cross thePyrenees and it is 500 miles in
total from where I started and Idid it in 28 days.
And then you start the storyabout purpose and finding your
(28:29):
core values and why it isimportant that you have that
walk instead of destination.
A lot of leaders see thedestination.
They see Santiago, st Jacob,they wanna go there.
No, it's about the route, theway you're walking, every step
(28:50):
you make and we sing songs aboutit, every step I make.
It's about the walk, becauseyou connect with human being and
you hear their stories andyou're not important anymore,
you're just part of thepilgrimage and that's what I
(29:11):
like to share, because thisstory is a pilgrimage.
We need to share your story.
Profitable happiness, my story,happiness makes money.
It's so connected.
It's a story that we need totell and a lot of leaders will
know that we don't have enoughemployees in the world anymore,
not in the Western world.
(29:32):
So there is shortage, so we wantthem to be less ill, much more
productive.
Don't leave all that kind ofstuff.
That's what it's all about.
So the result can be higherprofitability, but it's walk the
talk.
Do what you need to do, listento those people.
(29:54):
That's their journey, that'stheir pilgrimage, and I love to
share that story.
Dr. Pelè (29:59):
You know I forgot that a podcast could give me movie
recommendations too.
Guess what I'm watching thisweekend.
The way, the way I just foundit online with Martin Sheen and
Emilio Estevez, his son.
I can't wait.
You know, you are just such abreath of fresh air.
You got all these great storiesand ideas.
(30:20):
Paul, how can people find youonline?
What's the best way to connectwith you?
Paul ter Wal (30:25):
I always say the best way is go to LinkedIn type
in my name and if you see mypicture then you know that's the
right one.
I have behind my name CSP.
That means certified speakingprofessional.
I've been the world presidentof all the speakers in the world
(30:45):
.
Now I'm for virtualorganization, but what can find
me on YouTube?
I have a full keynote that issix months old.
It's taken in South Africa, inCape Town.
Dr. Pelè (31:00):
Oh, wow.
Paul ter Wal (31:01):
Isn't that amazing ?
Yeah, in Cape Town telling yourstory so people can listen the
whole 30 minutes or a short one,and my website is easy
PaulTowallcom.
Dr. Pelè (31:15):
Okay, awesome.
I will have some of those links, especially the LinkedIn and
your website on the show notesand some of the other ones you
mentioned.
Paul, thank you so much forbeing an awesome, educational
and fun guest on the ProfitableHappiness podcast.
Paul ter Wal (31:35):
Dr Tai-Le, it was great having being your guest.
I loved it.
Dr. Pelè (31:40):
Thank you, We'll talk soon.
Thanks for tuning in to theProfitable Happiness podcast.
For more episodes, visitdrpalaycom.
And remember get happy firstand success will follow.
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