November 7, 2023 • 35 mins
Recently, Christians on staff at The United States Pentagon supposedly opposed active exploration into U.F.O.'s and other extraterrestrial phenomenon, with the objection that the 'aliens' which might be discovered are not aliens at all, but demons.
Are UFO's, including flying saucers and little green men actually fallen angels? Should we resist exploring these things, or should we follow the truth wherever it leads?
The regulars dive into these things and more in this special in-person edition of the podcast recorded live in Minneapolis, MN.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We can fall on two extremes.
You can be all about justtrying to find demons and
everything.
Everything's spiritual and itgets weird, right.
So there's that extreme.
There's the other extreme,where we just dismiss it all.
I mean, just think like, oh,you know, it's just this
material world and you know,yeah, I pray and we're in a
battle.
The enemy's real and if I'm notaware of it, he'll take me out.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
The whole conversation and maybe why
there's tension is becausealiens work as a concept really
well for an atheist kind ofmindset, but angels and demons
are reserved for people withbelief.
You're listening to the Provokeand Inspire podcast.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast live
in person edition in the SwankyGlass conference room.
What's up, fellas?
Yes, Good to see you.
Like I said, this is theProvoke and Inspire podcast and
we are an official StigerInternational podcast, and this
is a very special moment for us.
Actually, we just had our.
Well, look, tell us what did wedo last night?
Why?
Why are we graced with thepresence of Chad and other
(01:05):
people from around this globe?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Well, we had a very first Stiger banquet.
We had an amazing timeyesterday, like it was basically
, as far as I see it, just ahuge gathering of friends of,
like I mean, a lot of ourmission key mission people were
here, but also people that havewalked to this for many years
praying, supporting us we're inthe room plus their friends, so
new people getting to know whatwe do.
And it was exciting because ina way, it's like celebrating
(01:27):
what we've been seeing God doover many years, like it's just
a real special moment.
And then also it felt likegoing into a new phase, like a
new level of growth and ofpeople coming alongside us, so
we were really excited for it.
There were like 300 andsomething people in the room
from all around the Twin Citiesand beyond, so it was really
cool we raised at least $3 and57 cents.
(01:49):
It cost us like I don't knowthousands, but we raised $3.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
And 50 cents After tax.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
No, it was good and these moments, for me, are
always.
They always emphasize one ofour core values, which is that
we're family, and you really dofeel that Like.
I know that sounds like a kindof a cliche, Maybe some
corporations would use, but inour mission that's how it feels
when we have these moments wherewe get to come together.
You cannot have seen somebodyfor a long time, but when you
come together it feels like afamily reunion.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I've repeatedly heard of the last year, like a lot of
people that have been walkingwith us over the last few years,
that that is one of the mainthings that really draws them in
, Like that sense that they'repart of a family, a community of
people around the world havethe same vision to go out, to
reach people, to go to the lost,and so and that's like this,
even this morning, likeworshiping together with
everyone there are people therethat we've been through so much,
(02:39):
so many crazy things togetherand just be there worshiping and
praying for each other is justso precious.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Yeah, and you know, obviously one of the greatest
felt needs of culture today isloneliness.
But that doesn't mean, in myview, that just because
followers of Jesus have the sortof the worldview to facilitate
and create great community, thatdoesn't mean they have it Right
, right Like it is even unique,I think.
In fact it's very rare.
It is rare, it is rare, and sofor it to be something that
(03:06):
attracts you to our mission isnot weird, right, I get it Like
this world is devoid of that, inand outside of the church often
, and so to have that is such abeautiful and unique thing, and
it's that we have this commonthing that we're striving for
right.
It's not just community forcommunity's sake, like you said,
it's the battles that we'vebeen through, it's the hard
things that we've seen, the warstories that we've shared, of
(03:27):
funny places we've stayed andplaces we preach the gospel, and
yeah.
All right, setlist for today.
We have David's Random Story.
We've already talked to youabout the mission.
We're going to save Punchingthrough the awkward for the next
episode we're going to berecording live.
So that's it.
Let's get to it, shall we so Ihad a friend whenever he would
look in the mirror, he'd see ademon.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
So he was like really freaked out, as he would be.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
He actually couldn't sleep, was he just really homely
.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
Okay, this is a serious story.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
We're so trained to not receive serious.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
This is not something to be mocking Ben, okay.
So he would look in the mirrorand he'd see this demon and he's
like I'm so freaked out and Iwant to keep him anonymous his
name but let's just just pretendthat his name is Matthew
Benzoonger from California.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Let's just let's just make a very, very generic name,
yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
Let's say his Matthew Benzoonger.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Let's do it all.
Don't call him Matthew B or RamBenzoonger.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
So I said here's what you need to do Look in the
mirror.
When the demon's there Say tothe demon go ahead.
You do that Every time.
I look in the mirror.
I want to see you, because youknow what that's going to do.
It's going to make me read theBible more and it's going to
make me pray more.
So you do that.
You look at me, I want to seeyou every time.
(04:39):
And after that he never saw thedemon again.
But the bad news is he didn'tread the Bible more or pray more
.
And then he ended up going offthe rail somewhere.
But anyway, that's it.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
All right, moving on.
So demons are back in the news.
So are aliens.
There is this report coming out, based on a podcast where one
of the high up guys in thePentagon he blamed Christians in
the Pentagon for resistingresearch into alien activity out
of fear that it was reallydemons, not aliens.
And so he goes on this popularpodcast and he talks about that
(05:16):
Quote.
He says it was not just alittle voice in the Pentagon,
but a huge group of people thatthought the phenomenon that was
being witnessed was demons.
And so they kind of talk aboutthis and laugh about this.
And so I thought why not?
A perfect opportunity to onceagain talk about aliens with the
cross-section of demons,without giving any more context.
David, since the floor is yoursinevitably, what do you think
(05:37):
about this?
What's your gut reaction to theidea that Christians in the
Pentagon are resisting alienexploration?
Is this an affront to scienceor a cautionary tale for us all?
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Well, when I was in university, I studied philosophy
and in our philosophydepartment there were zero
Christians.
It was super anti-Jesus.
In fact, it was not an affrontto my faith.
That actually made me believemore than I did before.
So I don't know why peoplewould be afraid of exploring any
kind of truth.
If aliens are indeed aliensfrom another planet, or if
(06:11):
they're demons, why would younot want to discover the truth
about it?
That doesn't make any sense tome.
So people who say that they'reJesus followers but are nervous
about discovering the truthabout something makes me wonder
how strong their faith is in thefirst place, Because my
experience has been.
When I really look into otherphilosophies or religions, it
only makes me believe more thatJesus is real.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Right, and if you have to use power to enforce a
belief, then that in a senseportrays that it's on shaky
ground.
You see that in a lot of Muslimcountries, where it's forbidden
to think or explore even thepossibility that there's another
religious idea that could begood or even better than what
you believe, yeah, and again, Idon't know if we go in this
(06:53):
direction, but a lot of whatpropelled the scientific
revolution was the idea that Godcreated everything, that the
world is knowable, rational,that we can pursue it, that God
has given us the mind to exploreit and then by all means go for
it.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
God gave us curiosity .
That's one part of this.
The whole alien thing that's inthe news a lot now and podcasts
etc is for me partly.
It's that it's like peoplereally curious.
They want to like is theresomething out there I mean I
enjoy.
Like there's certain podcasts Ilisten to.
Like sometimes I listen to theNASA one or like the astronomy
one from the UK because I'm justlike really intrigued by trying
(07:29):
to understand more deeplywhat's out there and it's
amazing some of the discoveriesthey're making now, like of how
far they can look into theuniverse and trying to figure
out how far back does it go andwhen did it begin.
And then even a lot ofscientists then linking that to
God, like saying you knowthere's a few Christian
scientists but also evenagnostic and atheist scientists
saying actually the intelligentdesign point is the best
(07:53):
explanation for it.
So that for me is like I lovelistening to that.
There's a curiosity that wehave that I think God's given us
.
And that's one side of it.
And then the other side is whatyou guys have started pointing
to as well, which is that thediscovery of truth is again a
godly thing, like to search forwhat is true, to use the
intelligence God has given usand in many ways, it's the
(08:13):
foundation of science itself.
Like it came from man of faithand you know we've had John
Lennox on the podcast and onsome of our events and that's
one of the things he often talksabout like science is in its
roots, in its origin Christian,it's based on believing as a God
with intelligence who, you know, made all of this.
So I, yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
I think the aspect of this conversation that caught
my attention was there'scertainly the conversation about
science, and theJudeo-Christian worldview
undergirds the pursuit ofscience, far from inhibiting it,
though we have a bit of asketchy past with science right,
we did try to burn some peoplewho tried to explore the
universe.
So there is that aspect of theconversation.
But what jumped out at me isokay, so you can.
(08:56):
You can think it's silly, that,okay, there are demons instead
of aliens.
You know we shouldn't pursuethat and you can.
You can kind of laugh that offand I instinctively would do
that.
My instinct would be well, whatthe heck?
Why would we not pursue it?
But the other side of it thatgot me thinking about this is
that we have grown up in aculture, especially in the West,
where we have so strippedculture and society of the
(09:17):
supernatural, where nothing isdemonic, even in the Christian
world, where my instinct, mynatural default, is not to
assume anything would be demonic, like how that's so foolish.
And yet we have an enemy that'sreal, we have demons operating
in this world, and so I think apotentially interesting
conversation here is what roledo demons and Satan play in this
(09:38):
world and what would it looklike?
You know, because in our veryintellectual, reformed thinking
it's kind of like there's justlies in my head that's the only
way that Satan operates, but Ifeel like he probably operates
in more ways than that.
And so, just as a generaldiscussion, that whole topic
what does demonic activity looklike in the world?
Should we be cautious?
Should we just be flippant andpursue or search out anything?
(10:00):
How do we guard ourselves andhow do we view the whole thing?
Chad.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Oh, chad, you knew it .
Okay, so I'm going to throw acurveball into this conversation
.
And I'm going to add a thirdpossibility.
Would we not consider thepossibility of aliens as angelic
presence?
And why do we default, asChristians, to demonic presence
when we think about it from ascriptural standpoint like
(10:25):
Genesis 28, I think it is, isthe story of Jacob having a
dream where angels are ascendingand descending.
Or you know how many Biblestories are there where angels
are present among us, where theyappear, and yet how many times
are their stories in the Biblewhere a demon was physically
(10:47):
visible to the naked eye?
Speaker 5 (10:49):
I had that in university, a friend of mine who
was a brand new believer andjust he was thinking about deep
things.
You know about his, you knowquestioning.
Did I do the right thing, am Icrazy?
The doorbell rang.
He opened the door and a guywas there, came in, explained
everything to him you know allthe questions he had and then
went to the door.
He went to thank him and he wasgone.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
That's another side of the same thing that I'm
talking about, which is that,for whatever reason, my instinct
is to dismiss both sides of it,to not want to think that
anything spiritual.
Well, of course I believe inthe power of God, I believe in
the Holy Spirit, but there is apart of me and intellectual
resistance to the idea that youknow that I don't know angels,
demons it feels like, okay,that's for the maybe more crazy
(11:32):
Christians on the periphery, orthat which is of course not what
I believe intellectually.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I just I don't know.
Yeah, and related to that, Ithink it's important to make a
distinction, like I think ourculture is curious about aliens
and discovery of you know, itsspace and etc.
It's a bit different to thecuriosity or the awareness of
the way people react tospiritual things.
So what I mean by that isthere's an aspect of kind of a
(11:59):
materialistic, scientific proofthing in relation to the alien
thing.
Like the Pentagon and everybodyresearching, they're interested
in it because they believe theycould really see material proof
of life, for example.
Right, so they've just sentthat probe to the asteroid to
(12:20):
get some some of the substancefrom the asteroid to figure out.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Why would there be some kind of life form on an
asteroid?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
No, that's not the answer.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
You're not making any sense.
I am, I am Listen to it.
No, you're not.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I'll explain it.
So you have.
You have some substance from anasteroid.
That what they believe is okay.
We can discover where themolecules for life came from.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
If you believe in evolution, the primordial
evolution evolution evolution.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Thank you, evil evolution, that's how evil
evolved over time.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
I believe in evolution.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
My point is it's too.
I think it's two differentkinds of people we're talking
about here.
There are people in our culturewho will be all fascinated with
the spiritual realm and oh,it's demonic presence or it's
angelic presence.
And there are the verysecularist, materialistic ones
who are still pursuing like istheir life outside in the
universe?
Are they aliens?
Not because they think it's aspiritual thing, because they
(13:12):
really want to find materialproof, and it's two different
things.
I think that's an importantdistinction to make.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
I think it is, but I also think it isn't, because, to
me, what aliens represent totypically non-religious people
although I think there areplenty of religious people who
might think aliens exist too andhave no problem with that, cs
Lewis being one of them but Ithink it to them represents the
answer to that, the transcendentmystery that they can't find
anything to put into herematerially.
(13:38):
I actually think it's both,because it answers metaphysical
questions.
It's kind of this hybrid thingwhere, yes, they don't have to
ascend to a god, they don't haveto sort of agree that there's
some sort of supernatural being,but if there's this outside
thing that we don't yet know,maybe that can be the what's the
key to all doors.
You know what?
(13:58):
I'm talking about C.
The Lord of the Rings C.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
That's it C I'm doors bucks.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
C, but do you know what I'm saying, though?
So I actually think for them itstill represents that, because
it's kind of like-.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
C.
It's a way of explaining thingswithout God in the equation C.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Yeah, it kind of is a replacement for a god
explanation for it right.
Speaker 5 (14:15):
C, but people also are really hungry for something
that has transcendent meaning.
That's not God.
It's because, like in ourapartment here in Minneapolis,
when we're here, a cross from us, is this universalistic church.
During the Halloween season,they always have free tarot card
reading and all kinds ofoccultic things, and the place
is packed out with people, justnormal people with their kids
(14:39):
going to get their tarot cardread or talk to their dead
grandma, and I think there's C.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
But wouldn't you say that they're trying to find a
substitute?
So if somebody's dismissed thepossibility of a spiritual realm
, if they've said I don't think-.
C, okay, c, I'm not sure ifthere's a god, I'm not sure if
there's a spiritual realm, so isthere another explanation for
things that we don't yetunderstand?
And then they'll go like, oh,maybe there are aliens, there
are super intelligent beings whoare way more advanced, and
(15:04):
that's a big part of this wholesearch for aliens.
Because if you look at like Ioften listen we've mentioned
this very times here but likethe Joe Rogan podcast and how
he'll be really curious aboutlike okay, where did the
pyramids come from?
And the ancient civilizationsand whether aliens that came,
and he loves like exploring thatand bringing people on the show
that, where they're talkingabout these ideas.
So there is a big part of ourculture that's pursuing these.
(15:27):
You know, whatever you want tocall it, but they're trying to
find explanations that you knowthey're not spiritual
explanations.
Maybe there is a physical spirit, sorry, physical intelligent
being, that's helped us.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
C, and I would just say it's an aliens of the gap
argument, right that for themthey don't want there to be a
God, right?
They don't want there to haveto be a supernatural explanation
for metaphysical questions theycan't answer materially, so
they'll rather defer to somemysterious alien Keral, some
panacea, like if there'll be analien that'll answer all the
questions that I don't want Godto have to answer cold universe
(16:00):
can't answer either.
Speaker 5 (16:02):
So it's to me.
I agree with what you're saying, but where did the aliens come
from?
Speaker 4 (16:06):
C Well, that's my point.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
It's an interesting way to address C One thing does
not dismiss the other, that ifyou really you want to take it
all the way-.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
C yes, aliens of the gap argument, but okay so all of
this is fascinating, but Ithink what matters to the
average listener of this podcastis C Aliens.
C Aliens is the whole idea ofthe demonic, because I do think
that's that is where this couldget more practical, which is, I
would say, the average person.
Listening to this falls similarto where I am or where I don't
(16:32):
know.
Want to speak for all of youguys, but my instinct is to
laugh off the idea that weshould not pursue aliens because
they might be demons.
And yet I think there is a realdemonic and angelic presence in
this world.
I mean second king, six fifteenthrough nineteen right Hold the
whole Elisha story whereas hiseyes opened.
I think there is more of a realC Explain the story C Well you
(16:54):
know he's surrounded by thisenemy and he's freaking out.
And then God reveals thatthere's this massive spiritual
force on his side.
C so I just seven, right.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
C yes.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
I could read it to be more accurate and then I
wouldn't come off like such agoon.
But I don't want to do thatbecause it's a lot of reading.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
C Basically, he's afraid and he says open his eyes
, lord, so he can see.
You know that he was in us isgreater than them, and then they
love him.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
C Second kings six, fifteen through nineteen.
When the servant of the man ofGod rose early in the morning
and went out, behold, an armywith horses and chariots was all
around the city.
And the servant said Alas, mymaster, what shall we do?
So the Lord opened the eyes ofthe young man and he saw and
behold, the mountain was full ofhorses and chariots of fire all
around Elisha.
Speaker 5 (17:38):
C, that's a pretty intense C.
I mean what?
Speaker 4 (17:39):
an epic story.
Right, should have just donethat right away.
I would have come off a lotmore credible.
But the point is, I think, inthe same way I need my eyes
opened, we're more impacted byour materialistic, scientific
rational.
Yeah, we dabble with the.
There you.
Okay, we'll kind of entertainthe idea of spirituality to some
degree, but I think, by andlarge, my default is to dismiss
(18:02):
that reality.
The fact that if, if God wouldopen my eyes and flip the switch
, I think it would be scary.
You know the whole likestranger things, underworld
thing.
I think it's like there wouldbe a reality around me that
would profoundly impact me.
Do you guys agree with that?
Luke, do you agree with that?
I?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
like that.
You used the stranger thingsreference.
That was fun.
So I agree.
And for me, that one of theverses, passages in the Bible
that most Kind of stands out tome when I think about a
spiritual world and how oursecular culture is in a way
ignoring it or Not understandingit, is in one, peter.
He's kind of challengingexactly what I think we need to
(18:38):
be challenged with today.
He says be alert and of sobermind.
Your enemy, the devil, prowlsaround like a roaring lion
looking for someone to devour.
Resist him, standing firm inthe faith, because you know that
the family of believersthroughout the world is
undergoing the same kind ofsufferings.
And that whole chapter, whichis one Peter five, he's calling
(18:59):
Young and old leaders in thechurch, young people, and he's
saying guys, stand strong, bealert, of sober mind, because
we're in a battle.
It's real, there's a spiritualworld, there's.
It's.
This isn't a game, there'ssomething we got to be aware of.
And that is exactly where wemake mistakes today and I
understand I probably in thesame category as you, ben like
(19:21):
it's too easy for me to justdismiss everything.
And I see us Lewis put it we canfall on two extremes.
You can be all about justtrying to find demons and
everything and or angels andeverything, and you know, I
would everything spiritual andand diverge from what we even
have in terms of biblicalunderstanding and and you just
kind of get it gets weird right.
(19:43):
So there's that extreme.
There's the other extreme,where we just dismiss it all.
I'm gonna think like, oh, youknow, it's just this material
world and you know, yeah, I prayand I follow Jesus, but there's
nothing you know.
And so this really challengesthat.
For me it's.
It's like every time I read itI'm reminded we're in a battle,
the enemy's real and if I'm notaware of it, he'll take me out,
(20:04):
because you know, if, if you'rein a, if you're in a war, but
you're not actually in the army,you're just standing around
observing like that's whereyou'll get take, you're gonna be
the first one out.
You know, so you got to be inthe war where part of the team,
part of the your brothers therein arms and be like okay, I got
your back, you got mine, let'sgo.
This is serious, you know.
(20:24):
I think that's what he'scalling us to have that kind of
expression.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
I'd rather be a Warrior in a garden and a garden
garden and a gardener and awarrior.
I.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Don't even know what that means, but I do think that
one of the things that the devilwants to do is to get me to
believe that he's not real.
Right and for me to not believein the spiritual world.
I mean, you know fission 612.
Our struggle is not againstflesh and blood, but against the
rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this
dark world, against thespiritual forces of evil in the
heavenly realms.
(20:53):
So when I face difficulties ismy first instinct to think about
the spiritual Powers, theprincipalities know it isn't but
Paul saying that is where ourstruggle begins.
So if, even if I'm having apersonal problem with someone,
or whatever it might be, paulsaid it's not flesh and blood.
And what would happen if Iwould approach things from that
(21:14):
starting point?
With things change?
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Right.
I see greater breakthrough and,like you said, luke, I think if
we don't know the kind ofreality we're in, we're not
going to engage it properly,right?
Which is why, if I'm honest,like when someone says you know,
I'm going through somethingreally hard or I explain a
really difficult situation, theysay, oh, let's pray about it.
Like there's a part of my fleshthat says, you know, like, of
course I believe God can move,but if I'm honest, there's a
part of my flesh that'll rise upand be like, alright, but how
(21:39):
are we gonna solve the problem?
And I hate to admit that, butit's true, it's like it becomes
that kind of thing, and I thinkthat part of it is not fully
understanding the reality aroundus and needing the Holy Spirit
to open up our eyes, but part ofit also, I think, is the enemy
working hard to make us notaware of what's going on.
Don't you think, chad, if wedon't get it, we're not going to
fight right, and that's goingto make us a lot less effective.
(22:00):
And so it's part of it.
Is that, ironically, the thespiritual warfare is to make me
not realize that the spiritualwarfare.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, I mean absolutely the whole
conversation.
And maybe why there's tensionin the Pentagon which is
hilarious to think of at thislevel, is because aliens work as
a, as a concept, really wellfor an atheist kind of mindset,
but angels and demons arereserved for people with belief
interesting.
Yeah, that's where there so for.
(22:28):
But, for example, to tie thisback to someone who might have
an opportunity to talk with afriend About this who doesn't
believe in Jesus is fromRevelation 10 1.
Then I saw another mighty angelcoming down from heaven,
wrapped in a cloud with arainbow over his head and his
face was like the Sun and hislegs like pillars of fire.
So, like you know, when theyare describing, you know, a
(22:49):
alien, like flashing by anairplane, it's like that's not
that far off from what is there.
So why not go there with like,hey, have you ever considered
the idea that there are angelicor demonic beings outside of
this?
Like, let's explore this more.
Can I share some scripturepasses that have blown my mind,
and I just think that you knowit continues like we talked last
(23:10):
time about finding commonground and and.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
But so what?
Salami, salami, salami but Ilike how you're trying to turn
it really to something verypractical and the conversations
we have with people and I againI would separate things out.
It's harder for me to have aconversation about aliens and to
lead it to spiritual things,but I do know that I have a lot
of conversations with people whohave had some kind of spiritual
experience and that does Likeopen their minds and hearts to
(23:36):
the possibility of God, and so Imean I even had a conversation
recently I can't I think I mighthave shared this on one of the
episodes, but we did thisconference in Serbia, this
gathering, and it's people fromall around the region, and we
went out on the streets ofNovosad, serbia, to share the
gospel.
And I had an amazingconversation with this young
Muslim guy, albanian backgroundbut living in Serbia, and one of
(23:59):
the things that was reallycrazy was happening with him was
that he had been Having thesespiritual experiences that had
opened him to think more aboutGod and about what's true, and
he'd been having dreams, likeGod had given him a dream where
he found a like a cupboard, alocked up cupboard, and when he
opened it there was a Bible andhe pulled it out in the dream
(24:19):
and was like, wanting, had thishunger to want to read it, and
he'd never read a Bible before.
And then he was telling me thatone day he was in his kitchen
and he started seeing some kindof weird stuff happening, like
things move, like some kind of,you know, like we see in the
horror movies.
You know it's like some kind ofghost or something.
And he's sitting there and theway he told it was, he said I
decided to try reading the Bible.
(24:41):
When I read the Bible on myphone, the things would stop
moving and then when I wouldwatch videos of other stuff
others like religions they wouldstart moving again.
And he's like so I think that'sa sign that I should be reading
the Bible.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
You know, that's his perception, I would say that's a
pretty good sign.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah so, but for me it was like, okay, here's an in
our conversations.
This is that opportunity to beable to say, well, yeah, there
is a spiritual, well, it's that.
And we need to be aware that wethere's so much more than the
material things, and so we needto seek truth.
We need to understand that,just like we seek truth about
other things, we need to seektruth about the spiritual world
(25:20):
around us.
And going back to that referenceof CS Lewis, I think the
analogy used is like the enemyIf he can't stop you from
getting on the horse, he'll helpyou up and make you fall off
the other side of the horse.
And so the enemy will oftenstart with maybe something like
weird, like like making usconfused about the spiritual
realm and fear and demonicforces and all that kind of
(25:43):
thing.
And if you, if culture, gets toa point where that's that's not
a thing anymore, he'll push usoff on the other side, which is
to believe he doesn't even exist, which is there's no spiritual
realm, there's no enemy, there'sno, none of this is real and
and that's that's what theenemy's doing, you know.
So we can say to people hey,there is a spiritual world and
that's why it's so importantthat we try to understand it and
we get to know God.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Yeah, yeah, I think the rise in interest in aliens
and the supernatural.
It's not coincidental that italso is coming at a time of
epidemic loneliness and anxietyand depression and suicide.
I think that people are kind ofcoming to the end of the
material answers and needingsomething deeper.
But one thought that came intomy mind that I thought was might
(26:24):
be interesting is you know, Ithink God is so merciful in the
way he allows us to experiencereality, Like you often will say
, David, that you know, if Icould fully experience God's
love, it would crush me.
Like if I could get his heartfor the world, like how he feels
about the war in the MiddleEast right now, or how he feels
about Ukraine, or poverty, orbroken homes or broken I, I
(26:46):
would just be laying flat on theground overwhelmed, I couldn't
move right.
So, in his mercy, we seek himand he gives us his heart, and
then we shape our lives andrespond accordingly.
I almost wonder if ourunderstanding of the spiritual
world is the same.
Right when I come to him with asincere desire to know what's
true, I want to align my lifewith reality, and reality is
(27:08):
there is a spiritual dimensionthat is more real, I think, than
the physical dimension.
But if I could fully comprehendit at all times, I'd probably
go mental Like I probably wouldbe immobilized.
It'd be terrifying.
I mean, I think we forget thefear, the overwhelming fear that
in angels and you know, ofcourse, the presence of God
people could even look at theirface.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
Whenever they see someone, see an angel, they're
flat on their face.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Right right.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
Or like what was the prophet?
He had this revelation of anangel and he was sick in bed for
three days, daniel remember hewas like.
He was like physically sickbecause it was so terrifying and
intense and it was an angel.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
That was a little tangential, but I do think it's
interesting.
Right, I think we desire toknow it.
But God is merciful and that heallows us to still function in
the very limited brains he'sgiven us, and he gives us enough
of the spiritual reality tofight the right way, to be
urgent, to live for what matters, to pray the right way, but not
(28:05):
so much of it that we'd just beoverwhelmed by what I think our
little two-dimensional brainscan't handle.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
But wouldn't this also this understanding or this
acknowledgement?
Maybe we can't take seeing thespiritual world as it is fully,
because it'd be too much, but tostart approaching things first
in seeking God rather thancoming up with our own solution,
right?
Speaker 4 (28:23):
I think it's like any form of sanctification.
I think the more I grow, themore God begins to peel away the
parts of me that are more humanand makes me more like Him.
I think my belief is that myability to handle His broken
hearts, the truth of thespiritual reality around me, the
burden for the loss, I think Iwould hope that would grow as I
(28:44):
grow, as my understanding of Godand His love for me and my
identity in Him.
So yeah, I think he's faithful.
Like you know, I don't expectfrom my three-year-old the same
that I expect from myseven-year-old, that I would
expect from them when they're 20.
And that would be the hope that, as I grow, god gives me more
and more.
He peels back the layers andshows me more and more of what's
true so that my life can morealign with reality and so I can
(29:07):
be more fruitful for Him and Ithink there's a really important
thing in what you guys aresaying in terms of our personal
walk of faith.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
When we live in a culture that really tries to
shut off that whole realm of thespiritual, we'll do exactly
what you've been describing, ben, which is, like you know, we'll
pray.
Is that really going to dosomething, you know?
And our faith will decrease,even if we're many years
following Jesus, like we can gothrough seasons of dryness.
(29:34):
And I think, paul, it's because, like what you were just saying
there, david is, if we don'texercise our faith, then it does
dry up, and I think for a lotof us in our culture that
happens.
And so faith is somethingyou've got to exercise, and when
I read it in Scripture, itreally is that it's a trusting
(29:55):
in God.
When I can't see it, when Idon't know, and it's stepping
into that and it doesn't come tous naturally always, most of
the time it'll be a lot easierto just kind of go ah, you know,
just get on with life and, youknow, don't take it so seriously
.
You know, we've got this thingthat the culture seems to put in
us.
We've got to fight against it.
We've got to go.
No, I'm going to pray, I'mgoing to trust that God will
(30:17):
move and that he's here, andthen the more you step out in
that, the more you start toexperience the reality of that
and to see God answering prayersand to see that the spiritual
world is real and that we are ina battle.
So I think we've got toexercise that faith so it
doesn't go dry.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
And I think what that sparked in my brain is the
still small voice of God andthat, again, if the Holy Spirit
speaking to you to take a risk,or to any of us, was some giant,
fiery angel with a sword beinglike, talk to that person.
You know, you'd be like okay,you know, but it's not, that's
not how he works.
He's merciful, he's like hey, Iwant you to, I want you to you
(30:56):
know what?
I mean it's this internal, andthen as you listen to that and
learn to cultivate, that itgrows and it becomes.
I feel like it becomes stronger.
But even that, to me, is howGod functions.
He doesn't want compulsion, hedoesn't want, he wants to draw
you out into deeper and deeperwaters.
But he does that in a sweet,merciful way, I think, where you
start to listen for that voiceand you start to feel the way he
(31:17):
feels and hear him lead you out, and when you take those risks,
it opens your eyes up more andmore to the reality all around
you.
Alright, that's it.
First in-person snazzy glassconference room office episode,
or ARSS, nzop.
First one in the books, firstone in the bag wait.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
How long has it been since we've done?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
this 1462, the Spanish Armada had just sunk to
the bottom of the Mediterraneansea Jurassic making a comeback.
Monocles were just in style.
Leather pants were distributedlike berries on street corner.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Imagine that for an hour, non-stop fast.
That's what Ben was like when Imet him.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
What's crazy.
Is it the last time I canremember a Stiger provoked and
inspired event?
Were those two provoked andinspired events, one in Hawaii
and then one in RichmondVirginia, which would have been
spring of 2019?
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I wasn't there, you weren't there.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Hawaii again.
You weren't there and that wasliterally right before I came
clean on the affair and like thewhole.
So from that time Up until nowthis is my first time back- in a
so over four years, for almostfour and a half years.
So, yeah, to me it's.
It's beautiful to to bereminded and just like last
(32:34):
night, the the amazingness ofhow you describe family, yeah,
and being reminded that thegifts and the calling of God are
not revocable and he doesn'tjust move his hand, remove his
hand from us and like, okay, youwere too far gone, you were too
bland, you were too notspiritual, you were too not
risk-taking.
I'm done, it's.
Last night to me was just likeyou're surrounded by giants in
(32:57):
the faith and nothing's changedin how I see you, and it was
just like Whoa.
I woke up this morning justhaving like dreams of like
prophesying over people againand wow over people and it's
like man.
I haven't felt this stuff in along time I was like I'm getting
.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
And then David calls me out like Chad, come up, we're
gonna pray for you I was likeyeah, I'm already being ambushed
.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
So that's awesome.
I had cool.
Love you man.
Yeah, I love you.
So fun to have you here.
You're like the brother I neverhad.
How do?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
you know, I was gonna say something really awkward,
but thankfully I had a sister.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I never was resistance.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Let's, let's cut that one.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
Yeah, no, let's go.
We're gonna edit that out.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
It's always means every time we say we're gonna
edit, we never do well actuallybe surprised, right, steve?
Speaker 2 (33:44):
We've got a whole folder things go, go south.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
We got a blackmail everyone.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
Well, mostly David and Chad.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Luke, you're squeaky clean.
It's disgusting.
You're like a politician, justpolished from the waist up and
the knees down cut.
All right, we're done.
Leave us a ready to review.
Speaker 5 (34:04):
We don't.
We have any new reviews to read.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Let's check live and just let's just check.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
We're gonna be sad if he says no we don't, you know,
I'm gonna check now.
Oh no nothing I could justquick Michelle now.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
See if there is a new one.
Should I just read the?
Speaker 4 (34:17):
latest review on the proof on the Joe on the Joe
Rogan podcast.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, joe Rogan, it's us.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I love that idea.
Just just changed the name Joefor David.
Speaker 5 (34:26):
We need a.
We need a three hours, no, wedon't you're?
Speaker 4 (34:30):
I'll read one, because we haven't read one for
a while.
Okay, from Sally Shield.
Wasn't she a famous actress?
Yep.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I'm laughing out loud , then humbled and challenged.
Five stars, thank God for theseguys.
This podcast is beautiful.
It's always leaving me wantingto know God more, learn more,
serve others, love others, prayand be his servant.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Thank you, wow thank you, sally, for you host a coast
and around the seas.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
We salute you.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
That's it, peace.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Thank you for listening to the provoke and
inspire podcast.
If you enjoy this content,consider leaving us a rating and
a review on iTunes.
Got questions for the guys.
Send them to provoke and expireat stigerorg.
Thanks for listening.
We can fall on two extremes.
You can be all about justtrying to find demons and
everything.
Everything's spiritual and itgets weird, right.
So there's that extreme.
There's the other extreme,where we just dismiss it all.
I mean, just think like, oh,you know, it's just this
material world and you know,yeah, I pray and we're in a
battle.
The enemy's real and if I'm notaware of it, he'll take me out.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
The whole conversation and maybe why
there's tension is becausealiens work as a concept really
well for an atheist kind ofmindset, but angels and demons
are reserved for people withbelief.
You're listening to the Provokeand Inspire podcast.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast live
in person edition in the SwankyGlass conference room.
What's up, fellas?
Yes, Good to see you.
Like I said, this is theProvoke and Inspire podcast and
we are an official StigerInternational podcast, and this
is a very special moment for us.
Actually, we just had our.
Well, look, tell us what did wedo last night?
Why?
Why are we graced with thepresence of Chad and other
(01:05):
people from around this globe?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Well, we had a very first Stiger banquet.
We had an amazing timeyesterday, like it was basically
, as far as I see it, just ahuge gathering of friends of,
like I mean, a lot of ourmission key mission people were
here, but also people that havewalked to this for many years
praying, supporting us we're inthe room plus their friends, so
new people getting to know whatwe do.
And it was exciting because ina way, it's like celebrating
(01:27):
what we've been seeing God doover many years, like it's just
a real special moment.
And then also it felt likegoing into a new phase, like a
new level of growth and ofpeople coming alongside us, so
we were really excited for it.
There were like 300 andsomething people in the room
from all around the Twin Citiesand beyond, so it was really
cool we raised at least $3 and57 cents.
(01:49):
It cost us like I don't knowthousands, but we raised $3.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
And 50 cents After tax.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
No, it was good and these moments, for me, are
always.
They always emphasize one ofour core values, which is that
we're family, and you really dofeel that Like.
I know that sounds like a kindof a cliche, Maybe some
corporations would use, but inour mission that's how it feels
when we have these moments wherewe get to come together.
You cannot have seen somebodyfor a long time, but when you
come together it feels like afamily reunion.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I've repeatedly heard of the last year, like a lot of
people that have been walkingwith us over the last few years,
that that is one of the mainthings that really draws them in
, Like that sense that they'repart of a family, a community of
people around the world havethe same vision to go out, to
reach people, to go to the lost,and so and that's like this,
even this morning, likeworshiping together with
everyone there are people therethat we've been through so much,
(02:39):
so many crazy things togetherand just be there worshiping and
praying for each other is justso precious.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Yeah, and you know, obviously one of the greatest
felt needs of culture today isloneliness.
But that doesn't mean, in myview, that just because
followers of Jesus have the sortof the worldview to facilitate
and create great community, thatdoesn't mean they have it Right
, right Like it is even unique,I think.
In fact it's very rare.
It is rare, it is rare, and sofor it to be something that
(03:06):
attracts you to our mission isnot weird, right, I get it Like
this world is devoid of that, inand outside of the church often
, and so to have that is such abeautiful and unique thing, and
it's that we have this commonthing that we're striving for
right.
It's not just community forcommunity's sake, like you said,
it's the battles that we'vebeen through, it's the hard
things that we've seen, the warstories that we've shared, of
(03:27):
funny places we've stayed andplaces we preach the gospel, and
yeah.
All right, setlist for today.
We have David's Random Story.
We've already talked to youabout the mission.
We're going to save Punchingthrough the awkward for the next
episode we're going to berecording live.
So that's it.
Let's get to it, shall we so Ihad a friend whenever he would
look in the mirror, he'd see ademon.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
So he was like really freaked out, as he would be.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
He actually couldn't sleep, was he just really homely
.
Speaker 5 (03:50):
Okay, this is a serious story.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
We're so trained to not receive serious.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
This is not something to be mocking Ben, okay.
So he would look in the mirrorand he'd see this demon and he's
like I'm so freaked out and Iwant to keep him anonymous his
name but let's just just pretendthat his name is Matthew
Benzoonger from California.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Let's just let's just make a very, very generic name,
yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
Let's say his Matthew Benzoonger.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Let's do it all.
Don't call him Matthew B or RamBenzoonger.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
So I said here's what you need to do Look in the
mirror.
When the demon's there Say tothe demon go ahead.
You do that Every time.
I look in the mirror.
I want to see you, because youknow what that's going to do.
It's going to make me read theBible more and it's going to
make me pray more.
So you do that.
You look at me, I want to seeyou every time.
(04:39):
And after that he never saw thedemon again.
But the bad news is he didn'tread the Bible more or pray more
.
And then he ended up going offthe rail somewhere.
But anyway, that's it.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
All right, moving on.
So demons are back in the news.
So are aliens.
There is this report coming out, based on a podcast where one
of the high up guys in thePentagon he blamed Christians in
the Pentagon for resistingresearch into alien activity out
of fear that it was reallydemons, not aliens.
And so he goes on this popularpodcast and he talks about that
(05:16):
Quote.
He says it was not just alittle voice in the Pentagon,
but a huge group of people thatthought the phenomenon that was
being witnessed was demons.
And so they kind of talk aboutthis and laugh about this.
And so I thought why not?
A perfect opportunity to onceagain talk about aliens with the
cross-section of demons,without giving any more context.
David, since the floor is yoursinevitably, what do you think
(05:37):
about this?
What's your gut reaction to theidea that Christians in the
Pentagon are resisting alienexploration?
Is this an affront to scienceor a cautionary tale for us all?
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Well, when I was in university, I studied philosophy
and in our philosophydepartment there were zero
Christians.
It was super anti-Jesus.
In fact, it was not an affrontto my faith.
That actually made me believemore than I did before.
So I don't know why peoplewould be afraid of exploring any
kind of truth.
If aliens are indeed aliensfrom another planet, or if
(06:11):
they're demons, why would younot want to discover the truth
about it?
That doesn't make any sense tome.
So people who say that they'reJesus followers but are nervous
about discovering the truthabout something makes me wonder
how strong their faith is in thefirst place, Because my
experience has been.
When I really look into otherphilosophies or religions, it
only makes me believe more thatJesus is real.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Right, and if you have to use power to enforce a
belief, then that in a senseportrays that it's on shaky
ground.
You see that in a lot of Muslimcountries, where it's forbidden
to think or explore even thepossibility that there's another
religious idea that could begood or even better than what
you believe, yeah, and again, Idon't know if we go in this
(06:53):
direction, but a lot of whatpropelled the scientific
revolution was the idea that Godcreated everything, that the
world is knowable, rational,that we can pursue it, that God
has given us the mind to exploreit and then by all means go for
it.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
God gave us curiosity .
That's one part of this.
The whole alien thing that's inthe news a lot now and podcasts
etc is for me partly.
It's that it's like peoplereally curious.
They want to like is theresomething out there I mean I
enjoy.
Like there's certain podcasts Ilisten to.
Like sometimes I listen to theNASA one or like the astronomy
one from the UK because I'm justlike really intrigued by trying
(07:29):
to understand more deeplywhat's out there and it's
amazing some of the discoveriesthey're making now, like of how
far they can look into theuniverse and trying to figure
out how far back does it go andwhen did it begin.
And then even a lot ofscientists then linking that to
God, like saying you knowthere's a few Christian
scientists but also evenagnostic and atheist scientists
saying actually the intelligentdesign point is the best
(07:53):
explanation for it.
So that for me is like I lovelistening to that.
There's a curiosity that wehave that I think God's given us
.
And that's one side of it.
And then the other side is whatyou guys have started pointing
to as well, which is that thediscovery of truth is again a
godly thing, like to search forwhat is true, to use the
intelligence God has given usand in many ways, it's the
(08:13):
foundation of science itself.
Like it came from man of faithand you know we've had John
Lennox on the podcast and onsome of our events and that's
one of the things he often talksabout like science is in its
roots, in its origin Christian,it's based on believing as a God
with intelligence who, you know, made all of this.
So I, yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
I think the aspect of this conversation that caught
my attention was there'scertainly the conversation about
science, and theJudeo-Christian worldview
undergirds the pursuit ofscience, far from inhibiting it,
though we have a bit of asketchy past with science right,
we did try to burn some peoplewho tried to explore the
universe.
So there is that aspect of theconversation.
But what jumped out at me isokay, so you can.
(08:56):
You can think it's silly, that,okay, there are demons instead
of aliens.
You know we shouldn't pursuethat and you can.
You can kind of laugh that offand I instinctively would do
that.
My instinct would be well, whatthe heck?
Why would we not pursue it?
But the other side of it thatgot me thinking about this is
that we have grown up in aculture, especially in the West,
where we have so strippedculture and society of the
(09:17):
supernatural, where nothing isdemonic, even in the Christian
world, where my instinct, mynatural default, is not to
assume anything would be demonic, like how that's so foolish.
And yet we have an enemy that'sreal, we have demons operating
in this world, and so I think apotentially interesting
conversation here is what roledo demons and Satan play in this
(09:38):
world and what would it looklike?
You know, because in our veryintellectual, reformed thinking
it's kind of like there's justlies in my head that's the only
way that Satan operates, but Ifeel like he probably operates
in more ways than that.
And so, just as a generaldiscussion, that whole topic
what does demonic activity looklike in the world?
Should we be cautious?
Should we just be flippant andpursue or search out anything?
(10:00):
How do we guard ourselves andhow do we view the whole thing?
Chad.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Oh, chad, you knew it .
Okay, so I'm going to throw acurveball into this conversation
.
And I'm going to add a thirdpossibility.
Would we not consider thepossibility of aliens as angelic
presence?
And why do we default, asChristians, to demonic presence
when we think about it from ascriptural standpoint like
(10:25):
Genesis 28, I think it is, isthe story of Jacob having a
dream where angels are ascendingand descending.
Or you know how many Biblestories are there where angels
are present among us, where theyappear, and yet how many times
are their stories in the Biblewhere a demon was physically
(10:47):
visible to the naked eye?
Speaker 5 (10:49):
I had that in university, a friend of mine who
was a brand new believer andjust he was thinking about deep
things.
You know about his, you knowquestioning.
Did I do the right thing, am Icrazy?
The doorbell rang.
He opened the door and a guywas there, came in, explained
everything to him you know allthe questions he had and then
went to the door.
He went to thank him and he wasgone.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
That's another side of the same thing that I'm
talking about, which is that,for whatever reason, my instinct
is to dismiss both sides of it,to not want to think that
anything spiritual.
Well, of course I believe inthe power of God, I believe in
the Holy Spirit, but there is apart of me and intellectual
resistance to the idea that youknow that I don't know angels,
demons it feels like, okay,that's for the maybe more crazy
(11:32):
Christians on the periphery, orthat which is of course not what
I believe intellectually.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I just I don't know.
Yeah, and related to that, Ithink it's important to make a
distinction, like I think ourculture is curious about aliens
and discovery of you know, itsspace and etc.
It's a bit different to thecuriosity or the awareness of
the way people react tospiritual things.
So what I mean by that isthere's an aspect of kind of a
(11:59):
materialistic, scientific proofthing in relation to the alien
thing.
Like the Pentagon and everybodyresearching, they're interested
in it because they believe theycould really see material proof
of life, for example.
Right, so they've just sentthat probe to the asteroid to
(12:20):
get some some of the substancefrom the asteroid to figure out.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
Why would there be some kind of life form on an
asteroid?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
No, that's not the answer.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
You're not making any sense.
I am, I am Listen to it.
No, you're not.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I'll explain it.
So you have.
You have some substance from anasteroid.
That what they believe is okay.
We can discover where themolecules for life came from.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
If you believe in evolution, the primordial
evolution evolution evolution.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Thank you, evil evolution, that's how evil
evolved over time.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
I believe in evolution.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
My point is it's too.
I think it's two differentkinds of people we're talking
about here.
There are people in our culturewho will be all fascinated with
the spiritual realm and oh,it's demonic presence or it's
angelic presence.
And there are the verysecularist, materialistic ones
who are still pursuing like istheir life outside in the
universe?
Are they aliens?
Not because they think it's aspiritual thing, because they
(13:12):
really want to find materialproof, and it's two different
things.
I think that's an importantdistinction to make.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
I think it is, but I also think it isn't, because, to
me, what aliens represent totypically non-religious people
although I think there areplenty of religious people who
might think aliens exist too andhave no problem with that, cs
Lewis being one of them but Ithink it to them represents the
answer to that, the transcendentmystery that they can't find
anything to put into herematerially.
(13:38):
I actually think it's both,because it answers metaphysical
questions.
It's kind of this hybrid thingwhere, yes, they don't have to
ascend to a god, they don't haveto sort of agree that there's
some sort of supernatural being,but if there's this outside
thing that we don't yet know,maybe that can be the what's the
key to all doors.
You know what?
(13:58):
I'm talking about C.
The Lord of the Rings C.
That's it.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
That's it C I'm doors bucks.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
C, but do you know what I'm saying, though?
So I actually think for them itstill represents that, because
it's kind of like-.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
C.
It's a way of explaining thingswithout God in the equation C.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Yeah, it kind of is a replacement for a god
explanation for it right.
Speaker 5 (14:15):
C, but people also are really hungry for something
that has transcendent meaning.
That's not God.
It's because, like in ourapartment here in Minneapolis,
when we're here, a cross from us, is this universalistic church.
During the Halloween season,they always have free tarot card
reading and all kinds ofoccultic things, and the place
is packed out with people, justnormal people with their kids
(14:39):
going to get their tarot cardread or talk to their dead
grandma, and I think there's C.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
But wouldn't you say that they're trying to find a
substitute?
So if somebody's dismissed thepossibility of a spiritual realm
, if they've said I don't think-.
C, okay, c, I'm not sure ifthere's a god, I'm not sure if
there's a spiritual realm, so isthere another explanation for
things that we don't yetunderstand?
And then they'll go like, oh,maybe there are aliens, there
are super intelligent beings whoare way more advanced, and
(15:04):
that's a big part of this wholesearch for aliens.
Because if you look at like Ioften listen we've mentioned
this very times here but likethe Joe Rogan podcast and how
he'll be really curious aboutlike okay, where did the
pyramids come from?
And the ancient civilizationsand whether aliens that came,
and he loves like exploring thatand bringing people on the show
that, where they're talkingabout these ideas.
So there is a big part of ourculture that's pursuing these.
(15:27):
You know, whatever you want tocall it, but they're trying to
find explanations that you knowthey're not spiritual
explanations.
Maybe there is a physical spirit, sorry, physical intelligent
being, that's helped us.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
C, and I would just say it's an aliens of the gap
argument, right that for themthey don't want there to be a
God, right?
They don't want there to haveto be a supernatural explanation
for metaphysical questions theycan't answer materially, so
they'll rather defer to somemysterious alien Keral, some
panacea, like if there'll be analien that'll answer all the
questions that I don't want Godto have to answer cold universe
(16:00):
can't answer either.
Speaker 5 (16:02):
So it's to me.
I agree with what you're saying, but where did the aliens come
from?
Speaker 4 (16:06):
C Well, that's my point.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
It's an interesting way to address C One thing does
not dismiss the other, that ifyou really you want to take it
all the way-.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
C yes, aliens of the gap argument, but okay so all of
this is fascinating, but Ithink what matters to the
average listener of this podcastis C Aliens.
C Aliens is the whole idea ofthe demonic, because I do think
that's that is where this couldget more practical, which is, I
would say, the average person.
Listening to this falls similarto where I am or where I don't
(16:32):
know.
Want to speak for all of youguys, but my instinct is to
laugh off the idea that weshould not pursue aliens because
they might be demons.
And yet I think there is a realdemonic and angelic presence in
this world.
I mean second king, six fifteenthrough nineteen right Hold the
whole Elisha story whereas hiseyes opened.
I think there is more of a realC Explain the story C Well you
(16:54):
know he's surrounded by thisenemy and he's freaking out.
And then God reveals thatthere's this massive spiritual
force on his side.
C so I just seven, right.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
C yes.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
I could read it to be more accurate and then I
wouldn't come off like such agoon.
But I don't want to do thatbecause it's a lot of reading.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
C Basically, he's afraid and he says open his eyes
, lord, so he can see.
You know that he was in us isgreater than them, and then they
love him.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
C Second kings six, fifteen through nineteen.
When the servant of the man ofGod rose early in the morning
and went out, behold, an armywith horses and chariots was all
around the city.
And the servant said Alas, mymaster, what shall we do?
So the Lord opened the eyes ofthe young man and he saw and
behold, the mountain was full ofhorses and chariots of fire all
around Elisha.
Speaker 5 (17:38):
C, that's a pretty intense C.
I mean what?
Speaker 4 (17:39):
an epic story.
Right, should have just donethat right away.
I would have come off a lotmore credible.
But the point is, I think, inthe same way I need my eyes
opened, we're more impacted byour materialistic, scientific
rational.
Yeah, we dabble with the.
There you.
Okay, we'll kind of entertainthe idea of spirituality to some
degree, but I think, by andlarge, my default is to dismiss
(18:02):
that reality.
The fact that if, if God wouldopen my eyes and flip the switch
, I think it would be scary.
You know the whole likestranger things, underworld
thing.
I think it's like there wouldbe a reality around me that
would profoundly impact me.
Do you guys agree with that?
Luke, do you agree with that?
I?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
like that.
You used the stranger thingsreference.
That was fun.
So I agree.
And for me, that one of theverses, passages in the Bible
that most Kind of stands out tome when I think about a
spiritual world and how oursecular culture is in a way
ignoring it or Not understandingit, is in one, peter.
He's kind of challengingexactly what I think we need to
(18:38):
be challenged with today.
He says be alert and of sobermind.
Your enemy, the devil, prowlsaround like a roaring lion
looking for someone to devour.
Resist him, standing firm inthe faith, because you know that
the family of believersthroughout the world is
undergoing the same kind ofsufferings.
And that whole chapter, whichis one Peter five, he's calling
(18:59):
Young and old leaders in thechurch, young people, and he's
saying guys, stand strong, bealert, of sober mind, because
we're in a battle.
It's real, there's a spiritualworld, there's.
It's.
This isn't a game, there'ssomething we got to be aware of.
And that is exactly where wemake mistakes today and I
understand I probably in thesame category as you, ben like
(19:21):
it's too easy for me to justdismiss everything.
And I see us Lewis put it we canfall on two extremes.
You can be all about justtrying to find demons and
everything and or angels andeverything, and you know, I
would everything spiritual andand diverge from what we even
have in terms of biblicalunderstanding and and you just
kind of get it gets weird right.
(19:43):
So there's that extreme.
There's the other extreme,where we just dismiss it all.
I'm gonna think like, oh, youknow, it's just this material
world and you know, yeah, I prayand I follow Jesus, but there's
nothing you know.
And so this really challengesthat.
For me it's.
It's like every time I read itI'm reminded we're in a battle,
the enemy's real and if I'm notaware of it, he'll take me out,
(20:04):
because you know, if, if you'rein a, if you're in a war, but
you're not actually in the army,you're just standing around
observing like that's whereyou'll get take, you're gonna be
the first one out.
You know, so you got to be inthe war where part of the team,
part of the your brothers therein arms and be like okay, I got
your back, you got mine, let'sgo.
This is serious, you know.
(20:24):
I think that's what he'scalling us to have that kind of
expression.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
I'd rather be a Warrior in a garden and a garden
garden and a gardener and awarrior.
I.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Don't even know what that means, but I do think that
one of the things that the devilwants to do is to get me to
believe that he's not real.
Right and for me to not believein the spiritual world.
I mean, you know fission 612.
Our struggle is not againstflesh and blood, but against the
rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this
dark world, against thespiritual forces of evil in the
heavenly realms.
(20:53):
So when I face difficulties ismy first instinct to think about
the spiritual Powers, theprincipalities know it isn't but
Paul saying that is where ourstruggle begins.
So if, even if I'm having apersonal problem with someone,
or whatever it might be, paulsaid it's not flesh and blood.
And what would happen if Iwould approach things from that
(21:14):
starting point?
With things change?
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Right.
I see greater breakthrough and,like you said, luke, I think if
we don't know the kind ofreality we're in, we're not
going to engage it properly,right?
Which is why, if I'm honest,like when someone says you know,
I'm going through somethingreally hard or I explain a
really difficult situation, theysay, oh, let's pray about it.
Like there's a part of my fleshthat says, you know, like, of
course I believe God can move,but if I'm honest, there's a
part of my flesh that'll rise upand be like, alright, but how
(21:39):
are we gonna solve the problem?
And I hate to admit that, butit's true, it's like it becomes
that kind of thing, and I thinkthat part of it is not fully
understanding the reality aroundus and needing the Holy Spirit
to open up our eyes, but part ofit also, I think, is the enemy
working hard to make us notaware of what's going on.
Don't you think, chad, if wedon't get it, we're not going to
fight right, and that's goingto make us a lot less effective.
(22:00):
And so it's part of it.
Is that, ironically, the thespiritual warfare is to make me
not realize that the spiritualwarfare.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, I mean absolutely the whole
conversation.
And maybe why there's tensionin the Pentagon which is
hilarious to think of at thislevel, is because aliens work as
a, as a concept, really wellfor an atheist kind of mindset,
but angels and demons arereserved for people with belief
interesting.
Yeah, that's where there so for.
(22:28):
But, for example, to tie thisback to someone who might have
an opportunity to talk with afriend About this who doesn't
believe in Jesus is fromRevelation 10 1.
Then I saw another mighty angelcoming down from heaven,
wrapped in a cloud with arainbow over his head and his
face was like the Sun and hislegs like pillars of fire.
So, like you know, when theyare describing, you know, a
(22:49):
alien, like flashing by anairplane, it's like that's not
that far off from what is there.
So why not go there with like,hey, have you ever considered
the idea that there are angelicor demonic beings outside of
this?
Like, let's explore this more.
Can I share some scripturepasses that have blown my mind,
and I just think that you knowit continues like we talked last
(23:10):
time about finding commonground and and.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
But so what?
Salami, salami, salami but Ilike how you're trying to turn
it really to something verypractical and the conversations
we have with people and I againI would separate things out.
It's harder for me to have aconversation about aliens and to
lead it to spiritual things,but I do know that I have a lot
of conversations with people whohave had some kind of spiritual
experience and that does Likeopen their minds and hearts to
(23:36):
the possibility of God, and so Imean I even had a conversation
recently I can't I think I mighthave shared this on one of the
episodes, but we did thisconference in Serbia, this
gathering, and it's people fromall around the region, and we
went out on the streets ofNovosad, serbia, to share the
gospel.
And I had an amazingconversation with this young
Muslim guy, albanian backgroundbut living in Serbia, and one of
(23:59):
the things that was reallycrazy was happening with him was
that he had been Having thesespiritual experiences that had
opened him to think more aboutGod and about what's true, and
he'd been having dreams, likeGod had given him a dream where
he found a like a cupboard, alocked up cupboard, and when he
opened it there was a Bible andhe pulled it out in the dream
(24:19):
and was like, wanting, had thishunger to want to read it, and
he'd never read a Bible before.
And then he was telling me thatone day he was in his kitchen
and he started seeing some kindof weird stuff happening, like
things move, like some kind of,you know, like we see in the
horror movies.
You know it's like some kind ofghost or something.
And he's sitting there and theway he told it was, he said I
decided to try reading the Bible.
(24:41):
When I read the Bible on myphone, the things would stop
moving and then when I wouldwatch videos of other stuff
others like religions they wouldstart moving again.
And he's like so I think that'sa sign that I should be reading
the Bible.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
You know, that's his perception, I would say that's a
pretty good sign.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah so, but for me it was like, okay, here's an in
our conversations.
This is that opportunity to beable to say, well, yeah, there
is a spiritual, well, it's that.
And we need to be aware that wethere's so much more than the
material things, and so we needto seek truth.
We need to understand that,just like we seek truth about
other things, we need to seektruth about the spiritual world
(25:20):
around us.
And going back to that referenceof CS Lewis, I think the
analogy used is like the enemyIf he can't stop you from
getting on the horse, he'll helpyou up and make you fall off
the other side of the horse.
And so the enemy will oftenstart with maybe something like
weird, like like making usconfused about the spiritual
realm and fear and demonicforces and all that kind of
(25:43):
thing.
And if you, if culture, gets toa point where that's that's not
a thing anymore, he'll push usoff on the other side, which is
to believe he doesn't even exist, which is there's no spiritual
realm, there's no enemy, there'sno, none of this is real and
and that's that's what theenemy's doing, you know.
So we can say to people hey,there is a spiritual world and
that's why it's so importantthat we try to understand it and
we get to know God.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Yeah, yeah, I think the rise in interest in aliens
and the supernatural.
It's not coincidental that italso is coming at a time of
epidemic loneliness and anxietyand depression and suicide.
I think that people are kind ofcoming to the end of the
material answers and needingsomething deeper.
But one thought that came intomy mind that I thought was might
(26:24):
be interesting is you know, Ithink God is so merciful in the
way he allows us to experiencereality, Like you often will say
, David, that you know, if Icould fully experience God's
love, it would crush me.
Like if I could get his heartfor the world, like how he feels
about the war in the MiddleEast right now, or how he feels
about Ukraine, or poverty, orbroken homes or broken I, I
(26:46):
would just be laying flat on theground overwhelmed, I couldn't
move right.
So, in his mercy, we seek himand he gives us his heart, and
then we shape our lives andrespond accordingly.
I almost wonder if ourunderstanding of the spiritual
world is the same.
Right when I come to him with asincere desire to know what's
true, I want to align my lifewith reality, and reality is
(27:08):
there is a spiritual dimensionthat is more real, I think, than
the physical dimension.
But if I could fully comprehendit at all times, I'd probably
go mental Like I probably wouldbe immobilized.
It'd be terrifying.
I mean, I think we forget thefear, the overwhelming fear that
in angels and you know, ofcourse, the presence of God
people could even look at theirface.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
Whenever they see someone, see an angel, they're
flat on their face.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Right right.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
Or like what was the prophet?
He had this revelation of anangel and he was sick in bed for
three days, daniel remember hewas like.
He was like physically sickbecause it was so terrifying and
intense and it was an angel.
Speaker 4 (27:45):
That was a little tangential, but I do think it's
interesting.
Right, I think we desire toknow it.
But God is merciful and that heallows us to still function in
the very limited brains he'sgiven us, and he gives us enough
of the spiritual reality tofight the right way, to be
urgent, to live for what matters, to pray the right way, but not
(28:05):
so much of it that we'd just beoverwhelmed by what I think our
little two-dimensional brainscan't handle.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
But wouldn't this also this understanding or this
acknowledgement?
Maybe we can't take seeing thespiritual world as it is fully,
because it'd be too much, but tostart approaching things first
in seeking God rather thancoming up with our own solution,
right?
Speaker 4 (28:23):
I think it's like any form of sanctification.
I think the more I grow, themore God begins to peel away the
parts of me that are more humanand makes me more like Him.
I think my belief is that myability to handle His broken
hearts, the truth of thespiritual reality around me, the
burden for the loss, I think Iwould hope that would grow as I
(28:44):
grow, as my understanding of Godand His love for me and my
identity in Him.
So yeah, I think he's faithful.
Like you know, I don't expectfrom my three-year-old the same
that I expect from myseven-year-old, that I would
expect from them when they're 20.
And that would be the hope that, as I grow, god gives me more
and more.
He peels back the layers andshows me more and more of what's
true so that my life can morealign with reality and so I can
(29:07):
be more fruitful for Him and Ithink there's a really important
thing in what you guys aresaying in terms of our personal
walk of faith.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
When we live in a culture that really tries to
shut off that whole realm of thespiritual, we'll do exactly
what you've been describing, ben, which is, like you know, we'll
pray.
Is that really going to dosomething, you know?
And our faith will decrease,even if we're many years
following Jesus, like we can gothrough seasons of dryness.
(29:34):
And I think, paul, it's because, like what you were just saying
there, david is, if we don'texercise our faith, then it does
dry up, and I think for a lotof us in our culture that
happens.
And so faith is somethingyou've got to exercise, and when
I read it in Scripture, itreally is that it's a trusting
(29:55):
in God.
When I can't see it, when Idon't know, and it's stepping
into that and it doesn't come tous naturally always, most of
the time it'll be a lot easierto just kind of go ah, you know,
just get on with life and, youknow, don't take it so seriously
.
You know, we've got this thingthat the culture seems to put in
us.
We've got to fight against it.
We've got to go.
No, I'm going to pray, I'mgoing to trust that God will
(30:17):
move and that he's here, andthen the more you step out in
that, the more you start toexperience the reality of that
and to see God answering prayersand to see that the spiritual
world is real and that we are ina battle.
So I think we've got toexercise that faith so it
doesn't go dry.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
And I think what that sparked in my brain is the
still small voice of God andthat, again, if the Holy Spirit
speaking to you to take a risk,or to any of us, was some giant,
fiery angel with a sword beinglike, talk to that person.
You know, you'd be like okay,you know, but it's not, that's
not how he works.
He's merciful, he's like hey, Iwant you to, I want you to you
(30:56):
know what?
I mean it's this internal, andthen as you listen to that and
learn to cultivate, that itgrows and it becomes.
I feel like it becomes stronger.
But even that, to me, is howGod functions.
He doesn't want compulsion, hedoesn't want, he wants to draw
you out into deeper and deeperwaters.
But he does that in a sweet,merciful way, I think, where you
start to listen for that voiceand you start to feel the way he
(31:17):
feels and hear him lead you out, and when you take those risks,
it opens your eyes up more andmore to the reality all around
you.
Alright, that's it.
First in-person snazzy glassconference room office episode,
or ARSS, nzop.
First one in the books, firstone in the bag wait.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
How long has it been since we've done?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
this 1462, the Spanish Armada had just sunk to
the bottom of the Mediterraneansea Jurassic making a comeback.
Monocles were just in style.
Leather pants were distributedlike berries on street corner.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Imagine that for an hour, non-stop fast.
That's what Ben was like when Imet him.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
What's crazy.
Is it the last time I canremember a Stiger provoked and
inspired event?
Were those two provoked andinspired events, one in Hawaii
and then one in RichmondVirginia, which would have been
spring of 2019?
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I wasn't there, you weren't there.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Hawaii again.
You weren't there and that wasliterally right before I came
clean on the affair and like thewhole.
So from that time Up until nowthis is my first time back- in a
so over four years, for almostfour and a half years.
So, yeah, to me it's.
It's beautiful to to bereminded and just like last
(32:34):
night, the the amazingness ofhow you describe family, yeah,
and being reminded that thegifts and the calling of God are
not revocable and he doesn'tjust move his hand, remove his
hand from us and like, okay, youwere too far gone, you were too
bland, you were too notspiritual, you were too not
risk-taking.
I'm done, it's.
Last night to me was just likeyou're surrounded by giants in
(32:57):
the faith and nothing's changedin how I see you, and it was
just like Whoa.
I woke up this morning justhaving like dreams of like
prophesying over people againand wow over people and it's
like man.
I haven't felt this stuff in along time I was like I'm getting
.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
And then David calls me out like Chad, come up, we're
gonna pray for you I was likeyeah, I'm already being ambushed
.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
So that's awesome.
I had cool.
Love you man.
Yeah, I love you.
So fun to have you here.
You're like the brother I neverhad.
How do?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
you know, I was gonna say something really awkward,
but thankfully I had a sister.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
I never was resistance.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Let's, let's cut that one.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
Yeah, no, let's go.
We're gonna edit that out.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
It's always means every time we say we're gonna
edit, we never do well actuallybe surprised, right, steve?
Speaker 2 (33:44):
We've got a whole folder things go, go south.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
We got a blackmail everyone.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
Well, mostly David and Chad.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Luke, you're squeaky clean.
It's disgusting.
You're like a politician, justpolished from the waist up and
the knees down cut.
All right, we're done.
Leave us a ready to review.
Speaker 5 (34:04):
We don't.
We have any new reviews to read.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
Let's check live and just let's just check.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
We're gonna be sad if he says no we don't, you know,
I'm gonna check now.
Oh no nothing I could justquick Michelle now.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
See if there is a new one.
Should I just read the?
Speaker 4 (34:17):
latest review on the proof on the Joe on the Joe
Rogan podcast.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, joe Rogan, it's us.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I love that idea.
Just just changed the name Joefor David.
Speaker 5 (34:26):
We need a.
We need a three hours, no, wedon't you're?
Speaker 4 (34:30):
I'll read one, because we haven't read one for
a while.
Okay, from Sally Shield.
Wasn't she a famous actress?
Yep.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I'm laughing out loud , then humbled and challenged.
Five stars, thank God for theseguys.
This podcast is beautiful.
It's always leaving me wantingto know God more, learn more,
serve others, love others, prayand be his servant.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Thank you, wow thank you, sally, for you host a coast
and around the seas.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
We salute you.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
That's it, peace.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Thank you for listening to the provoke and
inspire podcast.
If you enjoy this content,consider leaving us a rating and
a review on iTunes.
Got questions for the guys.
Send them to provoke and expireat stigerorg.
Thanks for listening.
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