October 5, 2025 • 42 mins
Join us as we take a look at the alleged CIA Project Often - a rumored offshoot of Project MK Ultra - which some say studies magic, witchcraft, voodoo and ancient grimoires.
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For more information on us, check out our websites: debbowen.com and samanthafey.com. You can also find Samantha on Instagram @samanthaofey.
If you want to pre-order Deb's book, go to debbowen.com or (if outside the US), check out clairegelder.com
Signed copies of Samantha’s book Heavenly Alliance and The Awake Dreamer are available at samanthafey.com.
Be sure to check out Samantha’s other podcast Enlightened Empaths.
Have a great week. Be the Light!
Thanks for listening! If you enjoy the show, please tell a friend, subscribe, rate and leave us a kind review. Don't forget to join our community on Facebook by searching Psychic Teachers.
If you have a question or story to share with us, send us an email at psychicteachers@gmail.com.
For more information on us, check out our websites: debbowen.com and samanthafey.com. You can also find Samantha on Instagram @samanthaofey.
If you want to pre-order Deb's book, go to debbowen.com or (if outside the US), check out clairegelder.com
Signed copies of Samantha’s book Heavenly Alliance and The Awake Dreamer are available at samanthafey.com.
Be sure to check out Samantha’s other podcast Enlightened Empaths.
Have a great week. Be the Light!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Hey guys, Deb and I just wanted to take a
moment to thank you for listening to the show and
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Our websites Samantha Fay dot com and Debbowen dot com
(00:39):
you can find our e courses, meditations, and crystal bracelets.
You can also pre order Deb's new book, Crafting the
Wheel of the Year, and on my site you can
order sign copies of my books as well. And I'm
excited to announce that Deb is going to be on
my other podcast, Enlightened Mpaths. So we're really happy to
share a beautiful conversation we have with Denise and Deb
(01:03):
and myself.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hope you check it out.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Hello, and welcome to Psychic Teachers. I'm your host, Samantha
Fay and I'm Deb Bowen, and today we are delving
into a chapter of Cold War history so bizarre, so
audacious that it sounds less like a government strategy and
more like a fever dream. We're gonna be talking about
whispers of ancient powers, the pursuit of the impossible, and
(01:30):
the unsettling intersection of clandestine intelligence with the occult. Imagine
the world in the mid twentieth century. The cold world
is at its chilling peak. Superpowers are locked in a
desperate arms race, scrambling for every conceivable advantage, and in
the shadows, an agency known for its cloak and dagger tactics,
(01:53):
the CIA, reportedly turned its gaze not just to nuclear
codes or satellite and intelligence, but to magic, to the unseen,
to the very fabric of reality itself. Today, we're going
to peel back the layers on something often hinted at,
sensationalized and yet rarely fully understood, the alleged CIA operation.
(02:19):
Often we'll explore how the Central Intelligence Agency, along with
its notorious chemist Sidney Gottlieb, supposedly dealt into the realms
of the occult, studied ancient magic, and according to some accounts,
even sought out and hired practicing witches and occultists. Allegedly
and will confront the darker rumors the alleged development of
(02:43):
tools for silent assassinations, specifically appealed to induce a heart attack,
and the disturbing reports of these studies and others being
conducted on unwitting prisoners, And the most chilling question of
all was Operation Offen, genuinely looking for proof of magic
and demons. This isn't just about secret labs and shadowy figures.
(03:08):
It's about the outer limits of human belief, the desperation
of a nation, and what happens when science, espionage and
the supernatural collide.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yikes, Okay, here we go. To understand the genesis of
anything as seemingly outlandish as this quote, Operation often, we
must first immerse ourselves in the paranoid crucible of the
Cold War. The nineteen fifties, sixties, and seventies were an
(03:40):
era defined by fear, scientific competition, and a no bolds
barred approach to national security. The United States and the
Soviet Union were locked in a technological arms race, nuclear weapons,
space exploration, advanced weapon beneath the surface. Another more subtle
(04:03):
race was unfolding, a race for control over the human mind,
over consciousness itself. This was the era of Project mk Ultra,
a now infamous and extensively documented CIA program. Its official
mandate was mind control, exploring everything from hypnosis, sensory deprivation,
(04:28):
and truth serums, to most notoriously, the use of LSD
and other psychoactive drugs to manipulate human behavior, illicit confessions,
or even create Manchurian candidates. Didney got Leave, a brilliant
but ethically controversial chemist, was at the very heart of
(04:49):
mk Ultra. He was the architect of its most audacious
and often horrifying experiments, earning him the nickname the Black Sorcerer.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
But while mk Ultra focused largely on pharmacology and psychology,
whispers persisted, and indeed, some declassified documents later confirm that
the CIA's interest extended beyond the purely chemical. They were deeply,
almost obsessively curious about anything that might give them an
edge extrasensory perception known as esp telekinesis remote viewing psychic abilities.
(05:27):
But why because reports suggested that the Soviets were also
investing heavily in psychic warfare, training clairvoyants and telepaths, hoping
to gain an insurmountable advantage in intelligence gathering or even
direct influence. Imagine the CIA's mindset if the enemy could
(05:49):
read minds, influence leaders from Afar, or even incapacitate soldiers
with just mere thought alone, then the US had to
be able to do it too, or at the very
least understand it well enough to defund against it. This
desperate desire for unconventional advantage opened the door to truly
(06:09):
extraordinary avenues of research. It was within this climate of
scientific desperation and existential fear that the alleged Operation often
is said to have emerged.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
If Operation Often exists as more than just a rumor
or an extreme offshoot of MK Ultra, its central figure
is undoubtedly Sidney Gottlieb. Gottlieb was not a mystic, but
a highly intelligent, somewhat eccentric biochemist. His work often involved poisons, hallucinogens,
(06:43):
and a deep interest in the vulnerable state of the
human mind. He truly believed in pushing the boundaries of
what was known, even if those boundaries included crossing ethical lines. Gottlieb,
by all accounts, was obsessed with finding non traditional methods
of influence and control. He authorized experiments where unwitting subjects
(07:07):
were dosed with LSD, where prostitutes were paid to lure
men to CIA safe houses for drug experiments, and where
sensory deprivation chambers pushed individuals to the brink of sanity.
His vision for MLK Ultra was broad, encompassing anything that
could disrupt, influence, or control the mind. One of the
(07:31):
most chilling allegations associated with Gottlieb and the projects of
this era, which could very well fall under the umbrella
of something like MK often existed, was the development of
a so called heart attack bill. This was supposedly a
highly potent toxin designed to induce a fatal heart attack
(07:53):
and a target leaving no trace in an autopsy that
would suggest foul play. The idea was to create natural
causes a death that was in fact carefully an orchestrated assassination.
So it's this broad scope, combined with his known willingness
to explore extreme possibilities, that make the claims about operation
(08:16):
often plausible. Within the context of his work, Gottlieb wasn't
afraid to look into the abyss if he thought that
there was an advantage to be gained, if traditional science
wasn't providing answers fast enough, or if the Soviets were
rumored to be exploring new frontiers. Gottlieb was the man
to greenlight the most unorthodox inquiries.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Now Here's where the specific claims about Operation often begin
to diverge from well documented history into more speculative territory.
So though rooted in some declassified fragments and in the
broader context of mk ULTRA. So we know the weird
stuff that Sydney did with l S D and using
(09:01):
prostitutes to lure men in and you know, have them
filmed high on drugs and doing these different things, all
of that is super well documented in mk Ultra. I mean,
for crying out loud, Whitey Bulger was part of that,
unknowingly when he was in prison. Even they even experimented
on Harvard students like Ted Kaczynski. So the mk ultra
(09:23):
stuff is very well documented. All the stuff we're talking
about today with Operation often there's a couple of documents
that have been released, but a lot of stuff in
there is really really redacted. So just keep in mind
that the reason why we keep saying allegedly with Operation
often is because it is not as well documented as
mk Ultra. So while official records explicitly detailing Operation often
(09:50):
as a distinct, massive project focused solely on magic and demons,
are very scarce or unconfirmed, the spirit of such an
operation aligns perfectly with Gottlieb's modus operande. The narrative suggests
that Gottlieb, in his relentless pursuit of mind control and
unconventional weaponry, became interested in historical accounts of magic, ritual
(10:14):
and occult practices. He theorized, or was at least open
to the idea that ancient rituals and specific magical practices
might contain keys to altering consciousness, influencing events, or even
directly harming enemies in ways modern science hadn't yet grasped.
This wasn't necessarily about believing in liberal spells, but about
(10:36):
investigating the potential psychological or energetic effects attributed to them,
or discovering an underlying scientific principle hidden within these ancient traditions.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So what did this study of magic entail under Gottlieb's
alleged direction in operation. Often, it wouldn't have been your
typical universe city recent project think moral on the lines
of deconstructing antrech grimoires, analyzing folkloric practices, and examining historical
(11:11):
accounts of witchcraft, shamanism, and esoteric rituals, the idea was
likely twofold. One would be disruption in warfare. Could specific
rituals for psychological manipulations derived from occult practices be used
to sow discord, induce fear, or even cause psychological breaks
in enemy populations or leaders? Could a curse be used
(11:34):
as a psychological weapon? And then, of course he wanted
to look at unconventional influence and power. Could there be genuine,
untapped human potential or energetic principles embedded within magical traditions that,
if harnessed, could provide intelligence advantages, influence outcomes, or even
create a form of psychic weaponry. This wasn't about believing
(11:57):
in wands and potions in a literal sense. It was
about asking if someone believed they were cursed, what psychological
effects would that have. Could certain symbols, sounds, or rituals
induce altered states of consciousness more effectively than drugs? Could
(12:18):
the collective belief in a ritual create a tangible energetic field.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Imagine the CIA pouring over translated text of the Key
of Solomon not as a mystical guide, but as a
potential manual for psychological operations. They might analyze the use
of specific incantations for their phonetic properties. The burning of
certain herbs for their psychoactive smoke, or the geometric patterns
(12:43):
and sigils for their potential subliminal effects on the human mind.
It would be a deconstructionist approach to magic, trying to
extract any practical, manipulable elements, even if divorced from their
original spiritual context. They'd be looking for the how and
the what, not necessarily the why in a spiritual sense.
(13:04):
So this brings us to a more controversial and highly
debated aspect of Operation Often that we're going to get into,
the alleged hiring of practicing witches and occultist whoa.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
This is perhaps the most sensational claim surrounding Operation Often,
and one that often draws skepticism. Did the CIA truly
higher practicing witches, astrologers and occultists? While direct, widespread, declassified
evidence explicitly states we hired coven remains elusive under the
(13:41):
operation named often, That historical context makes this less fantastical
than it first appears. Remember the CIA's documented interest in
parapsychology for Project Stargate, which focused on remote viewing, and
on other projects they did one equivocally work with individuals
(14:02):
who had psychic abilities, including famous remote viewers like Ingo
Swan and Pat Price. They consulted psychics, astrologers, and even
dowsers in attempts to find submarines, locate hostages, or gain intelligence.
Given this, the leap to consulting with, or even quote
(14:24):
hiring individuals practicing more traditional forms of magic or occultism
isn't as far fetched as it seems. It wasn't about
the CIA embracing witchcraft as a spiritual path. It was
about their pragmatic results oriented an ethically flexible approach to
gathering any perceived advantage.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Imagine the CIA encountering reports of a practitioner, say in
San Francisco, who cleaned influence events or gain information through
a ritual. Gottlieb's team might have approached them not with
an offer to j in the CIA, but to study
their methods to see if there was any verifiable effect,
or to understand the psychological impact on the partitioner and
(15:08):
their targets. This could involve observing rituals, analyzing their effectiveness,
or even attempting to replicate parts of their practice under
controlled or not so controlled conditions. One persistent rumor sometimes
linked to this era tells of a high ranking intelligence
official attending a specific occult gathering, not as a participant,
(15:29):
but as an observer. Their goal was to assess the
psychological cohesion of the group, the potential for crowd manipulation,
and to see if the belief systems of these people
might be susceptible to certain influences. So, while not hiring
a witch, it certainly falls into the realm of studying
their practices for intelligence purposes.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
The truth is likely nuanced. The CIA probably didn't put
out job ads for chief enchantment, but they al most
certainly consulted, observed, and experimented with individuals who claimed abilities
or utilized practices that aligned with the definition of occult.
(16:13):
All in the desperate pursuit of an edge against Cold
War adversaries, the distinction between a psychic and an occultist
might have been less relevant to Gottlab than the potential
for a usable outcome.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Now, for the chilling question was operation often genuinely looking
for proof of magic and demons. This is where the
narrative descends deepest into speculative and sensational territory, and where
we need to apply a critical lens. On the one hand,
The explicit goal of proving magic redeemons doesn't align with
(16:50):
the pragmatic, if unethical, scientific approach of the CIA operating
at this time. Their aim was operational effectiveness, not theological validation.
They wanted to know if a phenomenon worked and if
it could be weaponized or exploited. However, this doesn't mean
the question of magic or demons was an explored within
their parameters. Consider these possibilities magic, for example, as mechanism.
(17:16):
Instead of proving magic as a spiritual force, they might
have been looking for the mechanism behind purported magical effects.
If a cur seemed to cause illness, was it a
psychological suggestion, a poison, or an unknown energetic transmission. If
a ritual produced altered states, how did it do so?
(17:37):
They were seeking a scientific explanation for what was traditionally
called magic, and possibly looking at demons as psychological weapons.
The concept of demons might have been explored not as
literal entities, but as archetypes, psychological constructs, or even as
a means to induce severe psychological distress. Could a manipulated
(17:59):
environ or a carefully constructed haunting induce madness or compliance?
Could the belief in a demonic presence break a person's will.
Gottlieb was certainly interested in breaking people's wills, and then,
of course you have the power of belief. The CIA
at this time was keenly aware of the power of
(18:20):
belief if a population deeply believed in a specific magical
practice or a demonic curse, Understanding that belief could be
crucial for propaganda, psychological warfare, or even creating demoralizing effects.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Picture this, The CIA here is a report of a
remote village in an enemy state where a powerful shaman
is causing widespread psychological distress through alleged curses. Instead of
dismissing it, Gotlief's interests might be picked not because he
believes in the shaman's literal magic, but because he wants
(18:58):
to understand the psychological vulneulnerability of the population to such beliefs,
and whether that this vulnerability could be replicated or exploited
on a larger scale. Could the demon simply be a
culturally ingrained fear that could be triggered. So while the
(19:18):
CIA wasn't likely looking to confirm the existence of horn devils,
they were almost certainly probing the effects attributed to magic
and the psychological impact of believing in demonic forces. Their
goal was control and understanding, not necessarily theological truth. The
(19:40):
proof they sought would be functional and exploitable result.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Now, this next bit of our research is perhaps the
most disturbing and ethically indefensible aspect of projects like MK.
Often the use of vulnerable populations, including prisoners, for human experimentation.
While the direct link to magic and demon studies under
a name MK often is speculative, the CIA's historical record
(20:07):
clearly shows that involuntary experimentation was a cornerstone of MK ultra. Prisoners,
along with psychiatric patients, drug addicts, and other marginalized individuals,
were seen as ideal subjects because they were readily available,
often lacked legal recourse, and their complaints were easily dismissed.
(20:29):
The methods used in MK ultra on these unwitting subjects
were horrifying. Subjects were given LSD for days or weeks
on end, often without their knowledge or consent, to study
its effects on behavior and induce psychosis. Individuals were placed
in isolation chambers for extended periods, coupled with drug administration
(20:51):
to induce extreme psychological states. This was all done in
combination with drugs to disorient and break down the subject's mind.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
If Project MK often involved the study of occult rituals
for psychological impact or the testing of agents like the
Heart Attack Bill, it is highly plausible, even probable, that
such studies would have been conducted on these same vulnerable populations,
including prisoners in clandestine facilities. The ethical framework that allowed
(21:27):
for MK altra's abuses would certainly permit experiments exploring the
psychological effect of cursing someone or testing novel poisons designed
to mimic natural causes. We know, for example, that institutions
like the Kentucky State Reformatory were used for LSD experiments
(21:50):
on prisoners. It's not a stretch to imagine that if
God leaves interests extended to the psychological impact of fear
induced by methods or the testing of untraceable poisonings, these
vulnerable populations would have been targeted. The silence of these victims.
(22:10):
Their lack of voice made them convenient subjects for the
most dangerous and unethical inquiries. The allegation of using prisoners
for any form of these dark experiments underscore the profound
ethical breaches committed by the CIA during this period. The
lack of consent, the disregard for human dignity, the potential
(22:34):
for severe, lasting harm, or even death, remains a stain
on the history of intelligence operations. The veil of secrecy
ensured that the horrors endured by these individuals remained hidden
for decades, if not forever.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So, whether Project mk often existed as a distinct named
program or as an integrated component of larger initiations, its
alleged activities raise profound ethical questions, echoing the controversies of
MK Ultra. When intelligence agencies delve into the manipulation of
the mind or the exploitation of belief systems, the human
(23:15):
cost can be immense. If individuals were subjected to experiments
involving ritualistic elements, altered states, or the intentional induction of fear,
the psychological damage could be devastating. Many MK Ultra victims
suffered lifelong trauma, addiction, and mental health issues. The pursuit
of magic would likely involve even more volatile psychological terrain.
(23:40):
If an operation like often existed in its more sensationalized form,
why is it not widely declassified like Project MK Ultra
or Stargate. Well, there are several reasons why it would
remain deeply buried or highly fragmented in the public records.
Research into magic and demons would be far more politically
(24:00):
and socially volatile than even LSD mind control. The public
outcry if discovered would have been immense. Such research would
be deemed absurd at best and deeply disturbing or morally
reprehensible at worst, and the CIA is a master of
plausible deniability. Even if such experiments occurred, they would likely
(24:21):
be buried under broader project names like mk ultra itself,
or fragmented across many reports, or conducted through cutouts and
third parties to make direct connections difficult. Or let's say
the research didn't yield any actionable results, no verifiable magic,
no controllable demons, then there would be little incentive to
(24:43):
declassify it. It would simply be deemed a failed experiment and
allowed to fade into obscurity. And it's highly probable that
any occult studies were simply subcomponents or highly specific experiments
within larger existing projects like mk ultra, so instead of
a distinct operation, often it might have been mk Ultra
(25:04):
subproject Gamma seven. Such and such just to make the
direct lineage extremely difficult to trace. And that makes sense,
doesn't it. Well, it does, but you know, it made
me think. There was an outcry when mk Ultra was declassified,
and you have sub documentaries. I think one is called
the Wormwood documentaries. There's some outcry about it, but not
(25:28):
as much as you would think.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
That's probably because so much of it was redacted or unknown.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
True. So, the continued obscurity of operation, often in the
public eye, doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen in some form.
It just means the CIA was exceptionally good at keeping
this particular secret, or the results were deemed too sensitive,
to embarrassing or too inconclusive to see the light of day. So,
whether Operation often existed at all or as a distinct
(25:58):
named program, its alleged activities raise profound ethical questions, which
echo the controversies of MK Ultra. When intelligence agencies delve
into the manipulation of the mind or the exploitation of
belief systems, the human cost is immense if individuals are
subjected to experiments involving ritualistic elements or altered states, or
(26:21):
the intentional induction of fear. Let me just think about
the psychological damage.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
So I must ask were the quote practicing witches and
occultists brought in willingly, fully informed, and ethically compensated, or
were they manipulated, coerced or unwitting participants in experiments that
might have pushed them to their limits or even driven
them to psychological distress. What were the long term effects
(26:50):
on the researchers themselves. Delving into such dark and unconventional territories,
the line between objective observation and psychological entanglement can become
dangerously blurred. For example, if they did an experiment where
a subject is led to believe they are undergoing an
(27:10):
ancient demonic possession ritual, even if it's all staged to
study their psychological breakdown, can you imagine the horrific outcome,
The terror, the paranoia, the potential for lasting psychosis. These
are chilling ethic ramifications of such a pursuit. Regardless of
(27:31):
whether a quote demon was literally present, the psychological harm
would be very real. And if a heart attack, pill
or other untraceable poisons were being tested, the ultimate ethical
breach of taking a human life for intelligence purposes is
laid bare with the added horror of trying to make
it appear natural. The shroud of secretcy around projects like Operation,
(27:55):
often whether by design or due to lack of definitive results,
means that the full human cost will never be known.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
The lingering fascination with Operation often is undoubtedly fueled by
the proven reality of Project mk Ultra. The revelations about
mk Ultra, particularly in the nineteen seventies, completely shattered public
trust in the CIA and exposed a dark chapter of
government experimentation. It taught us that the impossible, the unethical,
(28:25):
and the truly bizarre could and did happen within the
confines of secret government programs. Once it was proven that
the CIA experimented with LSD to create mind control and
pursued avenues like developing a death seer or other untraceable
means of incapacitation, the public became far more open to
(28:46):
believing other, even wilder claims. This is where the seed
of Operation often found fertile ground. If they're messing with
drugs to control minds, why not ancient spells or rituals.
The logical leap, while significant, became more palatable once the
initial barrier of our government wouldn't do that was broken
the declassified documents related to psychic research like Project Stargate
(29:09):
further solidified this. While Stargate focused on remote viewing, it
showed the CIA's willingness to invest millions in parapsychological phenomena.
The line between psychic ability and magic can feel blurry.
After the mk Ultra revelation's public consciousness shifted. Suddenly, any
unusual behavior by the government, any strange rumors could be
(29:32):
framed through the lens of covert experimentation. It led to books, movies,
and TV shows that explored these themes, further cementing the
idea that the CIA was involved in all manner of
occult and mind bending endeavors. This cultural impact, while course
was very sensational, also reflects a very real trauma for
the breach of public trust.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
It's important to understand that the CIA's approach, particularly Gottliebs,
was not so spiritual. It was empirical, although in the
most unconventional sense of that word. They were likely looking
for replicable effects, even if the method seemed eserteraric. So,
for example, think about the idea that a curse causes
(30:15):
psychosomatic illness to a CIA operative. This isn't magic, it's
psychological warfare. Suppose a ritual that induces a heightened state
of awareness for an intelligence gathering event is a new
form of interrogation or data collection, and a quote demoned
that is a manifestation of collective fear exposes a vulnerability
(30:39):
that can be exploited. The language of magic and occultism
simply provided a framework for exploring phenomenon that conventional science
at the time couldn't readily explain or replicate. They weren't
mad scientists in the very real sense of the word,
pushing beyond acceptable aradigms, but always did their work with
(31:03):
a strategic national security objective in mind.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
As science fiction writer Arthur C. Clark famously said, any
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Perhaps the reverse
was true for Gottlieb. Any sufficiently powerful magic was just
an undiscovered technology or psychological leverage waiting to be understood
(31:29):
and controlled. This era represented a truly unique moment in
history where the lines between hard science, psychological manipulation, espionage,
and esoteric belief became profoundly blurred, and the desperate quest
for dominance wasn't about faith but about power.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So how do we deconstruct the claims of operation? Often
this breakdown what's probable given declassified history, and what remains
largely speculative. So here's what's problem. The CIA was entert
in parapsychology and psychic phenomenon. This has been documented through
Project Stargate and other programs. Sydney Gottlieb's involvement in highly
(32:10):
unconventional and ethically dubious mind control experiments like mk Ultra
is true. The CIA's willingness to explore any perceived advantage
over the Soviets is a core tenet of cod war intelligence.
Exploration into consciousness altering techniques by this agency has been confirmed.
(32:34):
This opened the door to study drug induced states, hypnosis
and potentially ritualistic states, and consultation with individuals claiming psychic
or unusual abilities absolutely happened. The reality of Operation often
likely lies in a liminal space between fact and fiction.
(32:55):
It's less a distinct labeled project to prove demons, and
more likely a fragmented series of highly experimental, deeply secretive,
and ethically problematic investigations into the psychological, physiological, and sociological
effects attributed to magic and alcohol practices. These would have
(33:18):
been conducted by individuals like Gottlieb operating within the larger
umbrella of programs like MK Ultra, all driven by the
desperate Cold War imperative to gain any advantage, no matter
how unconventional or unsettling. It's the ultimate what if scenario
that was just plausible enough to exist in the shadowy
(33:42):
corners of the world's most secret intelligence agencies.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
The allure of operation, often in similar clandestigne government ventures
into the supernatural, has predictably resonated deeply within popular culture. Books, films,
and television series have drawn inspiration from these rumors, sometimes
blurring the lines between historical fact and dramatic embellishment. I mean,
think about the TV show Stranger Things. You've got, the
(34:09):
secretive government lab experiments on children with psychic abilities, the
breaching of other dimensions. These elements clearly draw from the
legacy of MK Ultra and the broader fascination with psychic espionage.
The idea of the upside down world even echoes a
distorted alternate reality that some might associate with magical or
(34:30):
demonic realms. Or think about the movie The Men Who
Stare at Goats. While a comedic film it's based on
a nonfiction book about the US military's actual interest in
psychic warfare, earth army concepts and even attempts to kill
goats by staring at them. This reflects the very real
but sometimes absurd lengths agencies went to, and of course
(34:52):
this all led to various conspiracy theories. Operation often often
surfaces in broader conspiracy theories that link government agencies to
occult societies and secret rituals, and even direct communication with
non human entities. While a lot of these are unsubstantiated,
these theories feed on the documented history of mk ultra's
(35:13):
ethical breaches and the human desire to explain the inexplicable.
These cultural echoes serve a dual purpose. They entertain us
with thrilling what ifs, but they also act as a
collective memory, a cautionary tale about the dangers of unchecked power,
scientific hubris, and the desperate pursuit of advantage at any cost.
(35:35):
They remind us that sometimes the most unsettling truths are
stranger than any fiction we could invent.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
So here we are, in twenty twenty five, still talking
about whispers from decades past. Cold War is over, but
the questions remain what truly happened behind those closed doors,
what lines were or were not crossed, and what, if anything,
they truly discover about the nature of reality, human consciousness,
(36:05):
and the forces that might lie beyond our conventional understanding.
How many lives were irrevocably altered or tragically ended in
the pursuit of these unconventional weapons and mind control techniques.
The very existence of these operations, even in fragmented form,
challenges us to consider the limits of our knowledge and
(36:28):
the boundless, sometimes terrifying curiosity of humankind. The truth, as
always with intelligence operations, almost anything really is likely far
more complex, fragmented, and perhaps less sensational than the rumors suggest.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Okay, so, dev I know, this was a lot of
information and a lot of sad and kind of scary information,
and like we said, a lot of it is alleged.
I mean, I read so many different articles and sections
of books that said the CIA consulted with Sybil Leaks
and Anton Levy and all sorts of other stuff that
I didn't include in the notes because they're not super
(37:09):
well documented. But I do think about you know, I'm
always quoting from Unsolved Mysteries, my favorite show growing up
but there was that episode. I think it was doctor
Bruce Lipton who was talking about how he became interested
in the power of belief, And it was about this
man who came into the hospital and he said he
(37:29):
had been cursed and he was in fact dying, and
the doctors could not figure out what he was dying from,
but because he believed he was cursed, he was physically dying.
And so, like I said, I think it was doctor
Bruce Lipton was raised by a nanny who had taught
him about curses, and so he knew how to break
(37:51):
a curse. Now, he did not believe in any of this,
but he knew this man, this patient, believed in it,
and so he and his fellow interness performed in front
of this patient a ritual to quote break this alleged curse,
and the man watched and participated and believed the curse
was broken. And when the doctors went to check on
(38:12):
the patient the next morning, he was one hundred percent healthy.
All of his vital signs were great, blood work was wonderful,
and he was able to go home. So it does
make you think how the mind can truly believe all
of this, And maybe the government did look at it
as psychological warfare.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Oh absolutely. And you know, as we were beginning this
episode to record Samantha, I remembered a book that I
read truly, probably back in the late sixties early seventies,
called something about Secrets behind the Iron Curtain, and it
was about telekinesis work and studies in Russia about this
(38:53):
sort of thing. And I would think that one of
the aspects of what we've talked about today was so
and answer to what was probably going on in other
countries as well.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I have tried very hard through the years to do
research for a show on the Russian remote viewing program
during the Cold War and the alleged Chinese program on
psychic spies. I can't find it. I can find snippets
here and there, but nothing to put a whole show together.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Which I don't think is a maybe we're not meant
to do that. Okay, okay, But.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I don't you think it's important to know this so
that you can understand and really think for yourself and
not believe everything the government tells you.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Well, yes, I certainly don't believe everything I'm told, but
I figure what you're saying I do.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
So It's interesting because the reason why I wanted to
do this show is well, one, we've gotten a lot
of really good feedback on the other shows we've done
on some of the CIA's declassified reports on like the
Gateway and the Stargate Project, so I was looking to
do something else on that. But also on my for
(40:07):
you pages on social media, a lot of videos were
popping up on how the government was working with witches
and magical practitioners, and I was like, say what, I
got to look into this. So everything I researched had
the word alleged in front of it, which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
So we're alleged, alleged, alleged all through that.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yes, Yes, And there are a lot of books that
have been written about Sidney Gottlieb, like Poisoner in Chief,
but there's several others, and so his creepy work, like
we said, is very very well documented.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Weird. The whole thing is weirds man. As we'll talk
about rainbows and udicorns and quartz crystals. Okay, I know
you want to talk about stuff, and I know what.
We have listeners who do too, But I'm over here
trying to take deep breaths.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
It doesn't scare me. It makes me sad, But can't
you see them actually studying this? And you know what
else it made me think about before we wrap up,
what it made me think about the show we did
on the occult history of the Nazis in World War Two. Yeah,
I didn't like that show we'd I but you know
how they really truly did study, and they did invade
(41:16):
a lot of libraries throughout Europe and confiscated all the
inching grimoires.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yes, I know, I'm aware.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
There's got to be some truth to all of that
deb Why would all these governments have an interest? Well? Sure, absolutely,
I know all right, I can feel deb fading on me,
can you guys? I think she's I'm talking about this
spooky stuff. So you guys can share your comments with me.
If you enjoyed this episode, let us know and we
(41:44):
wish you a wonderful happy week filled with rainbows, kittens
and unicorns. Please remember, as always, to be the light
for yourself and others.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Take care everyone.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Thank you for listening to Psychic Teachers, your podcast for seekers,
light workers, mystics, and magical thinkers. If you like the show,
please tell a friend or leave us a review wherever
you listen to your podcast. For more information, check out
our Facebook page Psychic Teachers, or our websites Samantha Fay
dot com and Deb Bowen dot com. Thanks for listening
and have a great week.
Hey guys, Deb and I just wanted to take a
moment to thank you for listening to the show and
ask you to share it with a friend or leave
a comment on Spotify or Apple. It really does help us.
You can also show your love and support by signing
up for our newsletters or following us on social media.
Our websites Samantha Fay dot com and Debbowen dot com
(00:39):
you can find our e courses, meditations, and crystal bracelets.
You can also pre order Deb's new book, Crafting the
Wheel of the Year, and on my site you can
order sign copies of my books as well. And I'm
excited to announce that Deb is going to be on
my other podcast, Enlightened Mpaths. So we're really happy to
share a beautiful conversation we have with Denise and Deb
(01:03):
and myself.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hope you check it out.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Hello, and welcome to Psychic Teachers. I'm your host, Samantha
Fay and I'm Deb Bowen, and today we are delving
into a chapter of Cold War history so bizarre, so
audacious that it sounds less like a government strategy and
more like a fever dream. We're gonna be talking about
whispers of ancient powers, the pursuit of the impossible, and
(01:30):
the unsettling intersection of clandestine intelligence with the occult. Imagine
the world in the mid twentieth century. The cold world
is at its chilling peak. Superpowers are locked in a
desperate arms race, scrambling for every conceivable advantage, and in
the shadows, an agency known for its cloak and dagger tactics,
(01:53):
the CIA, reportedly turned its gaze not just to nuclear
codes or satellite and intelligence, but to magic, to the unseen,
to the very fabric of reality itself. Today, we're going
to peel back the layers on something often hinted at,
sensationalized and yet rarely fully understood, the alleged CIA operation.
(02:19):
Often we'll explore how the Central Intelligence Agency, along with
its notorious chemist Sidney Gottlieb, supposedly dealt into the realms
of the occult, studied ancient magic, and according to some accounts,
even sought out and hired practicing witches and occultists. Allegedly
and will confront the darker rumors the alleged development of
(02:43):
tools for silent assassinations, specifically appealed to induce a heart attack,
and the disturbing reports of these studies and others being
conducted on unwitting prisoners, And the most chilling question of
all was Operation Offen, genuinely looking for proof of magic
and demons. This isn't just about secret labs and shadowy figures.
(03:08):
It's about the outer limits of human belief, the desperation
of a nation, and what happens when science, espionage and
the supernatural collide.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yikes, Okay, here we go. To understand the genesis of
anything as seemingly outlandish as this quote, Operation often, we
must first immerse ourselves in the paranoid crucible of the
Cold War. The nineteen fifties, sixties, and seventies were an
(03:40):
era defined by fear, scientific competition, and a no bolds
barred approach to national security. The United States and the
Soviet Union were locked in a technological arms race, nuclear weapons,
space exploration, advanced weapon beneath the surface. Another more subtle
(04:03):
race was unfolding, a race for control over the human mind,
over consciousness itself. This was the era of Project mk Ultra,
a now infamous and extensively documented CIA program. Its official
mandate was mind control, exploring everything from hypnosis, sensory deprivation,
(04:28):
and truth serums, to most notoriously, the use of LSD
and other psychoactive drugs to manipulate human behavior, illicit confessions,
or even create Manchurian candidates. Didney got Leave, a brilliant
but ethically controversial chemist, was at the very heart of
(04:49):
mk Ultra. He was the architect of its most audacious
and often horrifying experiments, earning him the nickname the Black Sorcerer.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
But while mk Ultra focused largely on pharmacology and psychology,
whispers persisted, and indeed, some declassified documents later confirm that
the CIA's interest extended beyond the purely chemical. They were deeply,
almost obsessively curious about anything that might give them an
edge extrasensory perception known as esp telekinesis remote viewing psychic abilities.
(05:27):
But why because reports suggested that the Soviets were also
investing heavily in psychic warfare, training clairvoyants and telepaths, hoping
to gain an insurmountable advantage in intelligence gathering or even
direct influence. Imagine the CIA's mindset if the enemy could
(05:49):
read minds, influence leaders from Afar, or even incapacitate soldiers
with just mere thought alone, then the US had to
be able to do it too, or at the very
least understand it well enough to defund against it. This
desperate desire for unconventional advantage opened the door to truly
(06:09):
extraordinary avenues of research. It was within this climate of
scientific desperation and existential fear that the alleged Operation often
is said to have emerged.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
If Operation Often exists as more than just a rumor
or an extreme offshoot of MK Ultra, its central figure
is undoubtedly Sidney Gottlieb. Gottlieb was not a mystic, but
a highly intelligent, somewhat eccentric biochemist. His work often involved poisons, hallucinogens,
(06:43):
and a deep interest in the vulnerable state of the
human mind. He truly believed in pushing the boundaries of
what was known, even if those boundaries included crossing ethical lines. Gottlieb,
by all accounts, was obsessed with finding non traditional methods
of influence and control. He authorized experiments where unwitting subjects
(07:07):
were dosed with LSD, where prostitutes were paid to lure
men to CIA safe houses for drug experiments, and where
sensory deprivation chambers pushed individuals to the brink of sanity.
His vision for MLK Ultra was broad, encompassing anything that
could disrupt, influence, or control the mind. One of the
(07:31):
most chilling allegations associated with Gottlieb and the projects of
this era, which could very well fall under the umbrella
of something like MK often existed, was the development of
a so called heart attack bill. This was supposedly a
highly potent toxin designed to induce a fatal heart attack
(07:53):
and a target leaving no trace in an autopsy that
would suggest foul play. The idea was to create natural
causes a death that was in fact carefully an orchestrated assassination.
So it's this broad scope, combined with his known willingness
to explore extreme possibilities, that make the claims about operation
(08:16):
often plausible. Within the context of his work, Gottlieb wasn't
afraid to look into the abyss if he thought that
there was an advantage to be gained, if traditional science
wasn't providing answers fast enough, or if the Soviets were
rumored to be exploring new frontiers. Gottlieb was the man
to greenlight the most unorthodox inquiries.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Now Here's where the specific claims about Operation often begin
to diverge from well documented history into more speculative territory.
So though rooted in some declassified fragments and in the
broader context of mk ULTRA. So we know the weird
stuff that Sydney did with l S D and using
(09:01):
prostitutes to lure men in and you know, have them
filmed high on drugs and doing these different things, all
of that is super well documented in mk Ultra. I mean,
for crying out loud, Whitey Bulger was part of that,
unknowingly when he was in prison. Even they even experimented
on Harvard students like Ted Kaczynski. So the mk ultra
(09:23):
stuff is very well documented. All the stuff we're talking
about today with Operation often there's a couple of documents
that have been released, but a lot of stuff in
there is really really redacted. So just keep in mind
that the reason why we keep saying allegedly with Operation
often is because it is not as well documented as
mk Ultra. So while official records explicitly detailing Operation often
(09:50):
as a distinct, massive project focused solely on magic and demons,
are very scarce or unconfirmed, the spirit of such an
operation aligns perfectly with Gottlieb's modus operande. The narrative suggests
that Gottlieb, in his relentless pursuit of mind control and
unconventional weaponry, became interested in historical accounts of magic, ritual
(10:14):
and occult practices. He theorized, or was at least open
to the idea that ancient rituals and specific magical practices
might contain keys to altering consciousness, influencing events, or even
directly harming enemies in ways modern science hadn't yet grasped.
This wasn't necessarily about believing in liberal spells, but about
(10:36):
investigating the potential psychological or energetic effects attributed to them,
or discovering an underlying scientific principle hidden within these ancient traditions.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So what did this study of magic entail under Gottlieb's
alleged direction in operation. Often, it wouldn't have been your
typical universe city recent project think moral on the lines
of deconstructing antrech grimoires, analyzing folkloric practices, and examining historical
(11:11):
accounts of witchcraft, shamanism, and esoteric rituals, the idea was
likely twofold. One would be disruption in warfare. Could specific
rituals for psychological manipulations derived from occult practices be used
to sow discord, induce fear, or even cause psychological breaks
in enemy populations or leaders? Could a curse be used
(11:34):
as a psychological weapon? And then, of course he wanted
to look at unconventional influence and power. Could there be genuine,
untapped human potential or energetic principles embedded within magical traditions that,
if harnessed, could provide intelligence advantages, influence outcomes, or even
create a form of psychic weaponry. This wasn't about believing
(11:57):
in wands and potions in a literal sense. It was
about asking if someone believed they were cursed, what psychological
effects would that have. Could certain symbols, sounds, or rituals
induce altered states of consciousness more effectively than drugs? Could
(12:18):
the collective belief in a ritual create a tangible energetic field.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Imagine the CIA pouring over translated text of the Key
of Solomon not as a mystical guide, but as a
potential manual for psychological operations. They might analyze the use
of specific incantations for their phonetic properties. The burning of
certain herbs for their psychoactive smoke, or the geometric patterns
(12:43):
and sigils for their potential subliminal effects on the human mind.
It would be a deconstructionist approach to magic, trying to
extract any practical, manipulable elements, even if divorced from their
original spiritual context. They'd be looking for the how and
the what, not necessarily the why in a spiritual sense.
(13:04):
So this brings us to a more controversial and highly
debated aspect of Operation Often that we're going to get into,
the alleged hiring of practicing witches and occultist whoa.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
This is perhaps the most sensational claim surrounding Operation Often,
and one that often draws skepticism. Did the CIA truly
higher practicing witches, astrologers and occultists? While direct, widespread, declassified
evidence explicitly states we hired coven remains elusive under the
(13:41):
operation named often, That historical context makes this less fantastical
than it first appears. Remember the CIA's documented interest in
parapsychology for Project Stargate, which focused on remote viewing, and
on other projects they did one equivocally work with individuals
(14:02):
who had psychic abilities, including famous remote viewers like Ingo
Swan and Pat Price. They consulted psychics, astrologers, and even
dowsers in attempts to find submarines, locate hostages, or gain intelligence.
Given this, the leap to consulting with, or even quote
(14:24):
hiring individuals practicing more traditional forms of magic or occultism
isn't as far fetched as it seems. It wasn't about
the CIA embracing witchcraft as a spiritual path. It was
about their pragmatic results oriented an ethically flexible approach to
gathering any perceived advantage.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Imagine the CIA encountering reports of a practitioner, say in
San Francisco, who cleaned influence events or gain information through
a ritual. Gottlieb's team might have approached them not with
an offer to j in the CIA, but to study
their methods to see if there was any verifiable effect,
or to understand the psychological impact on the partitioner and
(15:08):
their targets. This could involve observing rituals, analyzing their effectiveness,
or even attempting to replicate parts of their practice under
controlled or not so controlled conditions. One persistent rumor sometimes
linked to this era tells of a high ranking intelligence
official attending a specific occult gathering, not as a participant,
(15:29):
but as an observer. Their goal was to assess the
psychological cohesion of the group, the potential for crowd manipulation,
and to see if the belief systems of these people
might be susceptible to certain influences. So, while not hiring
a witch, it certainly falls into the realm of studying
their practices for intelligence purposes.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
The truth is likely nuanced. The CIA probably didn't put
out job ads for chief enchantment, but they al most
certainly consulted, observed, and experimented with individuals who claimed abilities
or utilized practices that aligned with the definition of occult.
(16:13):
All in the desperate pursuit of an edge against Cold
War adversaries, the distinction between a psychic and an occultist
might have been less relevant to Gottlab than the potential
for a usable outcome.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Now, for the chilling question was operation often genuinely looking
for proof of magic and demons. This is where the
narrative descends deepest into speculative and sensational territory, and where
we need to apply a critical lens. On the one hand,
The explicit goal of proving magic redeemons doesn't align with
(16:50):
the pragmatic, if unethical, scientific approach of the CIA operating
at this time. Their aim was operational effectiveness, not theological validation.
They wanted to know if a phenomenon worked and if
it could be weaponized or exploited. However, this doesn't mean
the question of magic or demons was an explored within
their parameters. Consider these possibilities magic, for example, as mechanism.
(17:16):
Instead of proving magic as a spiritual force, they might
have been looking for the mechanism behind purported magical effects.
If a cur seemed to cause illness, was it a
psychological suggestion, a poison, or an unknown energetic transmission. If
a ritual produced altered states, how did it do so?
(17:37):
They were seeking a scientific explanation for what was traditionally
called magic, and possibly looking at demons as psychological weapons.
The concept of demons might have been explored not as
literal entities, but as archetypes, psychological constructs, or even as
a means to induce severe psychological distress. Could a manipulated
(17:59):
environ or a carefully constructed haunting induce madness or compliance?
Could the belief in a demonic presence break a person's will.
Gottlieb was certainly interested in breaking people's wills, and then,
of course you have the power of belief. The CIA
at this time was keenly aware of the power of
(18:20):
belief if a population deeply believed in a specific magical
practice or a demonic curse, Understanding that belief could be
crucial for propaganda, psychological warfare, or even creating demoralizing effects.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Picture this, The CIA here is a report of a
remote village in an enemy state where a powerful shaman
is causing widespread psychological distress through alleged curses. Instead of
dismissing it, Gotlief's interests might be picked not because he
believes in the shaman's literal magic, but because he wants
(18:58):
to understand the psychological vulneulnerability of the population to such beliefs,
and whether that this vulnerability could be replicated or exploited
on a larger scale. Could the demon simply be a
culturally ingrained fear that could be triggered. So while the
(19:18):
CIA wasn't likely looking to confirm the existence of horn devils,
they were almost certainly probing the effects attributed to magic
and the psychological impact of believing in demonic forces. Their
goal was control and understanding, not necessarily theological truth. The
(19:40):
proof they sought would be functional and exploitable result.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Now, this next bit of our research is perhaps the
most disturbing and ethically indefensible aspect of projects like MK.
Often the use of vulnerable populations, including prisoners, for human experimentation.
While the direct link to magic and demon studies under
a name MK often is speculative, the CIA's historical record
(20:07):
clearly shows that involuntary experimentation was a cornerstone of MK ultra. Prisoners,
along with psychiatric patients, drug addicts, and other marginalized individuals,
were seen as ideal subjects because they were readily available,
often lacked legal recourse, and their complaints were easily dismissed.
(20:29):
The methods used in MK ultra on these unwitting subjects
were horrifying. Subjects were given LSD for days or weeks
on end, often without their knowledge or consent, to study
its effects on behavior and induce psychosis. Individuals were placed
in isolation chambers for extended periods, coupled with drug administration
(20:51):
to induce extreme psychological states. This was all done in
combination with drugs to disorient and break down the subject's mind.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
If Project MK often involved the study of occult rituals
for psychological impact or the testing of agents like the
Heart Attack Bill, it is highly plausible, even probable, that
such studies would have been conducted on these same vulnerable populations,
including prisoners in clandestine facilities. The ethical framework that allowed
(21:27):
for MK altra's abuses would certainly permit experiments exploring the
psychological effect of cursing someone or testing novel poisons designed
to mimic natural causes. We know, for example, that institutions
like the Kentucky State Reformatory were used for LSD experiments
(21:50):
on prisoners. It's not a stretch to imagine that if
God leaves interests extended to the psychological impact of fear
induced by methods or the testing of untraceable poisonings, these
vulnerable populations would have been targeted. The silence of these victims.
(22:10):
Their lack of voice made them convenient subjects for the
most dangerous and unethical inquiries. The allegation of using prisoners
for any form of these dark experiments underscore the profound
ethical breaches committed by the CIA during this period. The
lack of consent, the disregard for human dignity, the potential
(22:34):
for severe, lasting harm, or even death, remains a stain
on the history of intelligence operations. The veil of secrecy
ensured that the horrors endured by these individuals remained hidden
for decades, if not forever.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So, whether Project mk often existed as a distinct named
program or as an integrated component of larger initiations, its
alleged activities raise profound ethical questions, echoing the controversies of
MK Ultra. When intelligence agencies delve into the manipulation of
the mind or the exploitation of belief systems, the human
(23:15):
cost can be immense. If individuals were subjected to experiments
involving ritualistic elements, altered states, or the intentional induction of fear,
the psychological damage could be devastating. Many MK Ultra victims
suffered lifelong trauma, addiction, and mental health issues. The pursuit
of magic would likely involve even more volatile psychological terrain.
(23:40):
If an operation like often existed in its more sensationalized form,
why is it not widely declassified like Project MK Ultra
or Stargate. Well, there are several reasons why it would
remain deeply buried or highly fragmented in the public records.
Research into magic and demons would be far more politically
(24:00):
and socially volatile than even LSD mind control. The public
outcry if discovered would have been immense. Such research would
be deemed absurd at best and deeply disturbing or morally
reprehensible at worst, and the CIA is a master of
plausible deniability. Even if such experiments occurred, they would likely
(24:21):
be buried under broader project names like mk ultra itself,
or fragmented across many reports, or conducted through cutouts and
third parties to make direct connections difficult. Or let's say
the research didn't yield any actionable results, no verifiable magic,
no controllable demons, then there would be little incentive to
(24:43):
declassify it. It would simply be deemed a failed experiment and
allowed to fade into obscurity. And it's highly probable that
any occult studies were simply subcomponents or highly specific experiments
within larger existing projects like mk ultra, so instead of
a distinct operation, often it might have been mk Ultra
(25:04):
subproject Gamma seven. Such and such just to make the
direct lineage extremely difficult to trace. And that makes sense,
doesn't it. Well, it does, but you know, it made
me think. There was an outcry when mk Ultra was declassified,
and you have sub documentaries. I think one is called
the Wormwood documentaries. There's some outcry about it, but not
(25:28):
as much as you would think.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
That's probably because so much of it was redacted or unknown.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
True. So, the continued obscurity of operation, often in the
public eye, doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen in some form.
It just means the CIA was exceptionally good at keeping
this particular secret, or the results were deemed too sensitive,
to embarrassing or too inconclusive to see the light of day. So,
whether Operation often existed at all or as a distinct
(25:58):
named program, its alleged activities raise profound ethical questions, which
echo the controversies of MK Ultra. When intelligence agencies delve
into the manipulation of the mind or the exploitation of
belief systems, the human cost is immense if individuals are
subjected to experiments involving ritualistic elements or altered states, or
(26:21):
the intentional induction of fear. Let me just think about
the psychological damage.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
So I must ask were the quote practicing witches and
occultists brought in willingly, fully informed, and ethically compensated, or
were they manipulated, coerced or unwitting participants in experiments that
might have pushed them to their limits or even driven
them to psychological distress. What were the long term effects
(26:50):
on the researchers themselves. Delving into such dark and unconventional territories,
the line between objective observation and psychological entanglement can become
dangerously blurred. For example, if they did an experiment where
a subject is led to believe they are undergoing an
(27:10):
ancient demonic possession ritual, even if it's all staged to
study their psychological breakdown, can you imagine the horrific outcome,
The terror, the paranoia, the potential for lasting psychosis. These
are chilling ethic ramifications of such a pursuit. Regardless of
(27:31):
whether a quote demon was literally present, the psychological harm
would be very real. And if a heart attack, pill
or other untraceable poisons were being tested, the ultimate ethical
breach of taking a human life for intelligence purposes is
laid bare with the added horror of trying to make
it appear natural. The shroud of secretcy around projects like Operation,
(27:55):
often whether by design or due to lack of definitive results,
means that the full human cost will never be known.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
The lingering fascination with Operation often is undoubtedly fueled by
the proven reality of Project mk Ultra. The revelations about
mk Ultra, particularly in the nineteen seventies, completely shattered public
trust in the CIA and exposed a dark chapter of
government experimentation. It taught us that the impossible, the unethical,
(28:25):
and the truly bizarre could and did happen within the
confines of secret government programs. Once it was proven that
the CIA experimented with LSD to create mind control and
pursued avenues like developing a death seer or other untraceable
means of incapacitation, the public became far more open to
(28:46):
believing other, even wilder claims. This is where the seed
of Operation often found fertile ground. If they're messing with
drugs to control minds, why not ancient spells or rituals.
The logical leap, while significant, became more palatable once the
initial barrier of our government wouldn't do that was broken
the declassified documents related to psychic research like Project Stargate
(29:09):
further solidified this. While Stargate focused on remote viewing, it
showed the CIA's willingness to invest millions in parapsychological phenomena.
The line between psychic ability and magic can feel blurry.
After the mk Ultra revelation's public consciousness shifted. Suddenly, any
unusual behavior by the government, any strange rumors could be
(29:32):
framed through the lens of covert experimentation. It led to books, movies,
and TV shows that explored these themes, further cementing the
idea that the CIA was involved in all manner of
occult and mind bending endeavors. This cultural impact, while course
was very sensational, also reflects a very real trauma for
the breach of public trust.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
It's important to understand that the CIA's approach, particularly Gottliebs,
was not so spiritual. It was empirical, although in the
most unconventional sense of that word. They were likely looking
for replicable effects, even if the method seemed eserteraric. So,
for example, think about the idea that a curse causes
(30:15):
psychosomatic illness to a CIA operative. This isn't magic, it's
psychological warfare. Suppose a ritual that induces a heightened state
of awareness for an intelligence gathering event is a new
form of interrogation or data collection, and a quote demoned
that is a manifestation of collective fear exposes a vulnerability
(30:39):
that can be exploited. The language of magic and occultism
simply provided a framework for exploring phenomenon that conventional science
at the time couldn't readily explain or replicate. They weren't
mad scientists in the very real sense of the word,
pushing beyond acceptable aradigms, but always did their work with
(31:03):
a strategic national security objective in mind.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
As science fiction writer Arthur C. Clark famously said, any
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Perhaps the reverse
was true for Gottlieb. Any sufficiently powerful magic was just
an undiscovered technology or psychological leverage waiting to be understood
(31:29):
and controlled. This era represented a truly unique moment in
history where the lines between hard science, psychological manipulation, espionage,
and esoteric belief became profoundly blurred, and the desperate quest
for dominance wasn't about faith but about power.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So how do we deconstruct the claims of operation? Often
this breakdown what's probable given declassified history, and what remains
largely speculative. So here's what's problem. The CIA was entert
in parapsychology and psychic phenomenon. This has been documented through
Project Stargate and other programs. Sydney Gottlieb's involvement in highly
(32:10):
unconventional and ethically dubious mind control experiments like mk Ultra
is true. The CIA's willingness to explore any perceived advantage
over the Soviets is a core tenet of cod war intelligence.
Exploration into consciousness altering techniques by this agency has been confirmed.
(32:34):
This opened the door to study drug induced states, hypnosis
and potentially ritualistic states, and consultation with individuals claiming psychic
or unusual abilities absolutely happened. The reality of Operation often
likely lies in a liminal space between fact and fiction.
(32:55):
It's less a distinct labeled project to prove demons, and
more likely a fragmented series of highly experimental, deeply secretive,
and ethically problematic investigations into the psychological, physiological, and sociological
effects attributed to magic and alcohol practices. These would have
(33:18):
been conducted by individuals like Gottlieb operating within the larger
umbrella of programs like MK Ultra, all driven by the
desperate Cold War imperative to gain any advantage, no matter
how unconventional or unsettling. It's the ultimate what if scenario
that was just plausible enough to exist in the shadowy
(33:42):
corners of the world's most secret intelligence agencies.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
The allure of operation, often in similar clandestigne government ventures
into the supernatural, has predictably resonated deeply within popular culture. Books, films,
and television series have drawn inspiration from these rumors, sometimes
blurring the lines between historical fact and dramatic embellishment. I mean,
think about the TV show Stranger Things. You've got, the
(34:09):
secretive government lab experiments on children with psychic abilities, the
breaching of other dimensions. These elements clearly draw from the
legacy of MK Ultra and the broader fascination with psychic espionage.
The idea of the upside down world even echoes a
distorted alternate reality that some might associate with magical or
(34:30):
demonic realms. Or think about the movie The Men Who
Stare at Goats. While a comedic film it's based on
a nonfiction book about the US military's actual interest in
psychic warfare, earth army concepts and even attempts to kill
goats by staring at them. This reflects the very real
but sometimes absurd lengths agencies went to, and of course
(34:52):
this all led to various conspiracy theories. Operation often often
surfaces in broader conspiracy theories that link government agencies to
occult societies and secret rituals, and even direct communication with
non human entities. While a lot of these are unsubstantiated,
these theories feed on the documented history of mk ultra's
(35:13):
ethical breaches and the human desire to explain the inexplicable.
These cultural echoes serve a dual purpose. They entertain us
with thrilling what ifs, but they also act as a
collective memory, a cautionary tale about the dangers of unchecked power,
scientific hubris, and the desperate pursuit of advantage at any cost.
(35:35):
They remind us that sometimes the most unsettling truths are
stranger than any fiction we could invent.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
So here we are, in twenty twenty five, still talking
about whispers from decades past. Cold War is over, but
the questions remain what truly happened behind those closed doors,
what lines were or were not crossed, and what, if anything,
they truly discover about the nature of reality, human consciousness,
(36:05):
and the forces that might lie beyond our conventional understanding.
How many lives were irrevocably altered or tragically ended in
the pursuit of these unconventional weapons and mind control techniques.
The very existence of these operations, even in fragmented form,
challenges us to consider the limits of our knowledge and
(36:28):
the boundless, sometimes terrifying curiosity of humankind. The truth, as
always with intelligence operations, almost anything really is likely far
more complex, fragmented, and perhaps less sensational than the rumors suggest.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Okay, so, dev I know, this was a lot of
information and a lot of sad and kind of scary information,
and like we said, a lot of it is alleged.
I mean, I read so many different articles and sections
of books that said the CIA consulted with Sybil Leaks
and Anton Levy and all sorts of other stuff that
I didn't include in the notes because they're not super
(37:09):
well documented. But I do think about you know, I'm
always quoting from Unsolved Mysteries, my favorite show growing up
but there was that episode. I think it was doctor
Bruce Lipton who was talking about how he became interested
in the power of belief, And it was about this
man who came into the hospital and he said he
(37:29):
had been cursed and he was in fact dying, and
the doctors could not figure out what he was dying from,
but because he believed he was cursed, he was physically dying.
And so, like I said, I think it was doctor
Bruce Lipton was raised by a nanny who had taught
him about curses, and so he knew how to break
(37:51):
a curse. Now, he did not believe in any of this,
but he knew this man, this patient, believed in it,
and so he and his fellow interness performed in front
of this patient a ritual to quote break this alleged curse,
and the man watched and participated and believed the curse
was broken. And when the doctors went to check on
(38:12):
the patient the next morning, he was one hundred percent healthy.
All of his vital signs were great, blood work was wonderful,
and he was able to go home. So it does
make you think how the mind can truly believe all
of this, And maybe the government did look at it
as psychological warfare.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Oh absolutely. And you know, as we were beginning this
episode to record Samantha, I remembered a book that I
read truly, probably back in the late sixties early seventies,
called something about Secrets behind the Iron Curtain, and it
was about telekinesis work and studies in Russia about this
(38:53):
sort of thing. And I would think that one of
the aspects of what we've talked about today was so
and answer to what was probably going on in other
countries as well.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I have tried very hard through the years to do
research for a show on the Russian remote viewing program
during the Cold War and the alleged Chinese program on
psychic spies. I can't find it. I can find snippets
here and there, but nothing to put a whole show together.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Which I don't think is a maybe we're not meant
to do that. Okay, okay, But.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
I don't you think it's important to know this so
that you can understand and really think for yourself and
not believe everything the government tells you.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Well, yes, I certainly don't believe everything I'm told, but
I figure what you're saying I do.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
So It's interesting because the reason why I wanted to
do this show is well, one, we've gotten a lot
of really good feedback on the other shows we've done
on some of the CIA's declassified reports on like the
Gateway and the Stargate Project, so I was looking to
do something else on that. But also on my for
(40:07):
you pages on social media, a lot of videos were
popping up on how the government was working with witches
and magical practitioners, and I was like, say what, I
got to look into this. So everything I researched had
the word alleged in front of it, which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
So we're alleged, alleged, alleged all through that.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yes, Yes, And there are a lot of books that
have been written about Sidney Gottlieb, like Poisoner in Chief,
but there's several others, and so his creepy work, like
we said, is very very well documented.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Weird. The whole thing is weirds man. As we'll talk
about rainbows and udicorns and quartz crystals. Okay, I know
you want to talk about stuff, and I know what.
We have listeners who do too, But I'm over here
trying to take deep breaths.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
It doesn't scare me. It makes me sad, But can't
you see them actually studying this? And you know what
else it made me think about before we wrap up,
what it made me think about the show we did
on the occult history of the Nazis in World War Two. Yeah,
I didn't like that show we'd I but you know
how they really truly did study, and they did invade
(41:16):
a lot of libraries throughout Europe and confiscated all the
inching grimoires.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yes, I know, I'm aware.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
There's got to be some truth to all of that
deb Why would all these governments have an interest? Well? Sure, absolutely,
I know all right, I can feel deb fading on me,
can you guys? I think she's I'm talking about this
spooky stuff. So you guys can share your comments with me.
If you enjoyed this episode, let us know and we
(41:44):
wish you a wonderful happy week filled with rainbows, kittens
and unicorns. Please remember, as always, to be the light
for yourself and others.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Take care everyone.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Thank you for listening to Psychic Teachers, your podcast for seekers,
light workers, mystics, and magical thinkers. If you like the show,
please tell a friend or leave us a review wherever
you listen to your podcast. For more information, check out
our Facebook page Psychic Teachers, or our websites Samantha Fay
dot com and Deb Bowen dot com. Thanks for listening
and have a great week.
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