August 24, 2025 • 49 mins
We're so excited to share this riveting dive into the magic and mystery of tarot with tarot expert Beth Owl's Daughter. In this episode we discuss the spirit of tarot, court cards, reversals, and the ethics of doing readings plus how to know when you're ready to start doing your own readings.
For more information on Beth and her work, check out owlsdaughter.com
To sign up for her newsletter (featuring Card of the Week every Monday, plus other tidbits): https://www.owlsdaughter.com/stay-in-touch/#newsletter
To schedule a personal reading: https://www.tickettailor.com/events/bethowlsdaughter/1726070
To join her free monthly online Tarot study & friendship group (all levels welcome): https://app.groups.place/group/triangletarot
For her Card of the Week: https://www.owlsdaughter.com/weekly-tarot
Find Beth's Blog articles featuring seasonal lore, etc.: https://www.owlsdaughter.com/blog
For more information on us, check out our websites: debbowen.com and samanthafey.com.
You can also find Samantha on Instagram @samanthaofey.
If you want to pre-order Deb's book, go to debbowen.com or (if outside the US), check out clairegelder.com
Signed copies of Samantha’s book Heavenly Alliance and The Awake Dreamer are available at samanthafey.com.
Be sure to check out Samantha’s other podcast Enlightened Empaths.
Have a great week. Be the Light!
For more information on Beth and her work, check out owlsdaughter.com
To sign up for her newsletter (featuring Card of the Week every Monday, plus other tidbits): https://www.owlsdaughter.com/stay-in-touch/#newsletter
To schedule a personal reading: https://www.tickettailor.com/events/bethowlsdaughter/1726070
To join her free monthly online Tarot study & friendship group (all levels welcome): https://app.groups.place/group/triangletarot
For her Card of the Week: https://www.owlsdaughter.com/weekly-tarot
Find Beth's Blog articles featuring seasonal lore, etc.: https://www.owlsdaughter.com/blog
For more information on us, check out our websites: debbowen.com and samanthafey.com.
You can also find Samantha on Instagram @samanthaofey.
If you want to pre-order Deb's book, go to debbowen.com or (if outside the US), check out clairegelder.com
Signed copies of Samantha’s book Heavenly Alliance and The Awake Dreamer are available at samanthafey.com.
Be sure to check out Samantha’s other podcast Enlightened Empaths.
Have a great week. Be the Light!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello everyone. Before we dive into today's fantastic chat with
our Toureau expert, Deb, and I wanted to ask you
to share our show with a friend or leave a
comment on Spotify or Apple. It really helps the podcast.
You can also show your love and support by signing
up for our newsletters or following us on social media.
On our websites Samantha Fay dot com and Deb Bowen
(00:40):
dot com, you can find our e courses, meditations, my
crystal bracelets. You can pre order Deb's new book, Crafting
The Wheel of the Year, and on my site you
can order signed copies of my books The Awake Dreamer
and Heavenly Alliance. When you order anything from me, you
also get a free fortune cookie and a crystal chosen
(01:00):
just for you, along with some other goodies. Okay, let's
get to our guest and Touro talk. Hello and welcome
to Psychic Teachers. I'm your host Samantha.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Fay and I'm Dan Bowen.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And joining us on the show today is the well
known Toro reader and writer, Beth Owl's daughter. After several
decades working as an IT programmer, manager, technical writer and instructor,
Beth left the corporate world and followed her heart into
the world of freelance writing. Her essays and features have
been published in Interchange magazine. She had a monthly column
(01:33):
for years in the Meta Arts magazine, among several others.
She's also written a fabulous cookbook, and she's been offering
tourou readings for over fifty years. Beth is a member
of the American Tourou Association, the Terrasophy Association, and Tourou
Association of the British Isles. She's also founder of one
(01:54):
of the world's oldest, largest and most active teruro meetups.
But the main reason she's on our show today is
just because Deb and I have been following your work
for decades.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Wait.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Deb, absolutely we have. Thank you so much for being
with us.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Beth delighted. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that decades. Yeah, wow,
yeah for true.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
And I have to tell our listeners that when I
suggested to Samantha that week, I abs skewed her. Come on,
I said, but she probably won't, and I'm really nervous
to ask her, and because you know, she's bethsell daughter,
and I'm nervous about that because well, and Samantha said, well,
then I'll email her, and I thought I could, all right,
(02:40):
let's Samantha do that and then and you were so
gracious and said yes, And I'm so thrilled. Let's start
by just a little history with you. If we could
tell us how you got started with Tua, How did
tro come into your life? Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
How much time you got? Well? Was Paulton in my
hippie days, which I am basically onreacon structed hippie, So
there you go. I was hitchhiking up and down in
California and I met a guy that offered to cast
my astrology chart and I'm like, well, sure, but that
(03:14):
would be good because I'm right on the cusp between
cancer and LEO and I've never known That's all I
knew about it. And he cast his chart. I didn't
know him from Adam. I had met him for like
five minutes, and he told me things that nobody knew,
I mean nobody knew, and I was blown away. So
(03:37):
I started trying to learn astrology. Well, this is back
in ancient days before fire was invented, and there were
certainly no calculators. I'm a total mathaphoe, and so here
I am trying to figure out stuff by hand, and
I persisted long enough that I could sort of get
(04:00):
the hang of it, but it was way hard. Then
I found this little book about the e she and
it was a daily diary and it would give you
a reading for the day and then you would cast
the coins and see what you're reading was. And within
two months I was synchronizing. I was getting the same
(04:25):
coins as the printed book was saying, and I'm like,
whoam this is really interesting. So I did that for
about a year. Well, finally in nineteen seventy two, my
best friend and I were headed down to the local
headshop in Gainesville, Florida, where I was living, not that
(04:47):
far away from Mary Greer. I wish I had known
at the time, But there by the bongs and the
water beds was a little display of tarot cards, like
maybe five decks. That was probably all there were at
the time, and there was something about it that just clicked.
(05:08):
I mean, I looked at those images that were on
the box. They were sealed, but I'm like, I know this.
It just spoke to me on a deep level. And
so he bought the aquarium to row and I got
the lighter weightsn and that is the deck I still
used to this day for my Monday readings. I just
(05:31):
fell in love with that. And when he and I
took our decks home and started playing with we realized,
and this is not a toy, This is not fooling around.
This is big stuff. It was never scary or terrible
except right after I saw The Exorcist. Shortly afterwards freaked
me out. I was threw away my cars. I'm so
(05:55):
glad I didn't, but we realized this is big and
ever since then I have just been in love with them.
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
One of the reasons that I wanted so much to
talk to you is that in reading your weekly newsletters,
it's very clear to me that the ethics of this
work is really really important to you, and it certainly
is to us as well. And we talk about that. Boy,
if you take a class with me, you may not
be able to read to Row. When you're done with JEW,
(06:26):
will know what the ethics of reading to Row is.
And so I love that about your work, and I
really appreciate you helping be a part of that community
that really does speak to the ethics and the seriousness
and the responsibility of the work. Absolutely, I teach also,
(06:48):
and I do I drill that we talk at length
about what an unethical reading looks like. I talk at
length about even if you don't become a reader, or
here's how to spot trouble and avoid readers that are skanky.
I've had so many clients that I've had to clean
(07:08):
up after somebody else.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
You know that it's just awful. Well, every profession has that.
I mean, it's just not tourou It's you know, everybody,
But I think what torow It's people are so vulnerable
and are reading. It's just I'm passionate about that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah, no, and I so appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I really do.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I include in my handout the American to Row Association's
Code of Ethics, and I say to my students, every
profession that has a code of ethics has a code
of ethics because somebody behaved unethically and they needed to
write the rule. Stay absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
One of the things that a lot of the students
that we talk to and a lot of our listeners
who email us often ask, is how do you know, oh,
when you're ready to offer to roll readings? Because both
of you have said you never fully know everything about
toure you know, you're always learning something, So could you
(08:13):
just tell us about your process of going you know what,
I think I'm going to offer to roll readings and
maybe some signposts that will help people who are also
learning the.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Tourou know when they're ready. Yeah, sure, I'm happy to
you because I actually have a class on going Pro.
It's three levels. When I teach beginners, one is just
a general introduction and this is what the deck is
comprised of. The second one is really becoming a reader,
(08:46):
so how to read, and that's an all day extravaganza.
Let me tell you he which is fun in person
on zoom you know, not as much. But then my
going Pro class, I really do talk about that a lot.
And one of the big factors that I see is
(09:06):
people have to get over the idea of being right.
As long as people are focused on getting it right,
they are not focused on hearing the queer ent. And
so a lot of what I teach is like how
to listen to people, how to open your heart in
(09:30):
compassion for the person across the table. They are the
center of the reading, not your expertise. And newbies, you know,
of course, are a little nervous about getting it wrong.
If you're always going to have that slight nervousness. I
still do. I still think, oh my god, what if
(09:51):
I blank and I don't know what this I mean? Well,
I really don't worry about that. We're not actually don't.
But I can understand that the problem is when the
focus shifts back to you, you are not ready. I
am all about giving readings as an act of service,
(10:11):
not as a way to make money, not as a
way to ego trip. It is really really important that
you love the cards enough to understand why they are
an act of service for others.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
That is great advice for anyone offering any kind of reading,
whether it's mediumship, intuitive or to row or a combination.
Thank you for that answer.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I also tell my students to get yourself out of
the way and let Terro speak. If this is about
I think, then this isn't a Toro reading, right, This
is what what is toro say? Right? And I also,
and I bet you do this too, in some way,
invite your your students to say a prayer or meditation,
or create some kind of a bubble in which you're working.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah, we call it the screen porch. You know. Allow
me to be able to see clearly and to feel
everything that I need to be able to feel. But
I am behind the screen here, and so I'm out
of the way.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Just for example, that sends out this amazing email every
week to folks who subscribe to it, and it's just
filled with keen observations about the key that she apparently
chooses you every week. It's very clear that you don't
choose the key, it chooses. I love that, And so
(11:41):
there's this observation about that, and some to wrote teaching
about that, and some ways in which folks who get
the newsletter can see themselves in the message from the key,
and that's lovely. And then you have a group of
friends who are astrologers who also work with you to
give you some great information. So the news and we'll
(12:04):
tell you about how to get in touch with Beth
and gif her newsletter. But I love how you blend
the skill of astrology and to row with your friends
with that. Would you talk some about how that works
and how you came to that.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Well, I love astrology, and as I was saying, that's
that's kind of how I found myself in the whole
metaphysical world. Was my dabbling with the astrology in the
early days, but I have tremendous respect for astrologers, and
I have some dear friends, not just the two that
(12:39):
I mostly feature in my newsletter, but I have lots
of really dear friends that are astrologers, and I just
love seeing how the planets in those stars and everything
seemed to really echo what the Toureau is doing, and
vice versa. I find out really fascinating. When I first
(13:01):
began to notice it, I really had not folded in
people's predictions or their analyzes of what was happening astrologically.
I just was reading different astrologers that I liked. But
I'm like, huh, you know, this is really echoing underlying
what the tureau is saying. I wonder what that's about.
(13:24):
And so as time went on, I began to explore that,
and it's like, Wow, this is pretty amazing. Toureau and
astrology are really so harmonious together, and I love showcasing that.
And the two women that I mostly feature, Elizabeth Grace
out of New York and Laura Bevin who's from the UK,
(13:45):
are just brilliant and we do share notes sometimes, but
most of the time I'm waiting to see what they're
going to write. You know, I read it and it's
like wow, and there's this in this that totally blend
with what the Tureau is saying.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Don't you think that's one of the gifts of Tourou
is that it encompasses world beliefs and cultures and mythologies
and the human condition and art types and numerology and
sacred geometry.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And absolutely and it is such a beautiful blend of
all of human wisdom. When I pull the card on mondays,
I go through an ever. I finally had to draw
the line. For a while, I was getting longer and
longer and longer preparation, and it was like, okay, you know,
it's taken all day. But I do invoke what I
(14:38):
call the spirit of the Tureau, and I think that
part of what animates it is all of the wisdom
of the artists and the poets and the alchemists and philosophers.
And I mean, at the tippy top of it, it's
over six hundred years of human wisdom and traditions. Even
(15:02):
below that though, it goes all the way back to
Platonic philosophy and really ancient wisdom. All of that is
all in this little pack of cards. It's just astonishing
to me. And if you understand that and you open
that door, it's just incredible what can be revealed.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I want to talk about some basic one oh one
stuff like your views unshuffling and cutting the deck. But
before we get to that, what's your opinion on the
magic of Teruro. What do you think is happening? Is
it our subconscious is our guides? Is it some mystical force?
What do you think happens when you lay out the cards?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Well, I mean you should ask that, because I really
have been wrestling with that for a long long time.
I believe that there is a spirit that is Touro.
It's a very animistic kind of a belief, where in
their own way, the cards are kind of alive. That
(16:06):
is my observation. I've seen that with my students. I've
seen it and sharing readings with other professionals, and over
late night drinks, a lot of those professionals will admit
there's something more going on here than just skill and
knowledge and shuffling some paper around. So I do believe
(16:28):
you can apply all kinds of metaphors to it. It's
a door that opens to wisdom with a capital W.
Now what wisdom with the capitol W is depends on you.
What do you think that means the divine? Maybe is
(16:50):
it the voice of angels? Maybe I think it's the
you know, it's the blind men and the elephant that
you can't literally see all sides of it, even if
you're not blind. But for the blind men and the elephant, Oh,
I think it's entailed. No, I think it's a trump. No,
I think it's a leg And it's all correct, that's
all true. Well, it's a great answer.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I agree, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So let me come back to that magic piece about
Toro for a second. I have and I know you
watch to road change lives and something way bigger than
me or you sitting there as the reader is happening here.
There's a synergy. There's an energy going on that we
(17:33):
may not be able to name or describe. Your description
of the spirit of to Row is absolutely lovely. One
of the things that I invite my students to do,
and I wonder if you do this, is I ask
them to invite in a to Row guide that helps
them work with the keys.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Is that something you do? I encourage people to welcome
in their guardian, guardian's guides and allies.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I do that too, but I mean a.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Specific tarot guidance. Yeah. I don't always ask my clients
to do that, but I do it. I had a
ton I always do. It depends on the client, you know,
if if I feel like they're receptive, then I will
say let us you know, let me ask you to
call in the guidance to Row.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
And the key that was on this week's newsletter, it's
the six of cups. And one of the things that
you point out is the guard with the sort of
staff or whatever he has it is in in the background.
And one of the things that I bet you do
as I do, is invite people who are just learning
(18:40):
to read to Row to pay attention to the details.
There are no accidents in the artwork. Do you agree
that that? Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (18:50):
The fact that what I what I start off with
and my one on one beginner's class is to learn
to read the tarot. You need to to see and
I'm going to show you how to see. But the
very first exercise I do in a class, especially when
we're a person and I can do it on zoom too,
(19:12):
is I pull out a non tarot deck that is
just images, and I pass around a random card and
I have people say what they see in it. Soul
Cards by Debor Chapins, and her technique is basically it's
finger painting, very very skillful, and these images can be
(19:34):
interpreted all kinds of ways, and there's no booklet. Everything
that you see there is correct. And by the end
of that little exercise and everybody hearing the other things
that people have seen and realizing, oh, this is how
to see and everybody can always do that unless they
(19:59):
have a visual pairmi, which is a whole other story,
which can be tricky, but but for most people, being
able to see something that is reflecting often how they're feeling,
what they're thinking about, that's a big part. So, yeah,
learning how to see the card and all the details
(20:20):
because everything in there, especially in the Waite Smith deck,
was put there by careful thought and design.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Wouldn't you love to be able to have a conversation
with Pixie?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Oh my god, I'm looking forward to it. Someday we do.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I hope I get there.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Wherever she did this.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
And you know that's a question that students asked me.
I mean, I bet they do you too, is how
much of what she drew and painted came from for her,
from an intuitive place, and how much of it was
mandated by weight?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Well, I do know, Like, for instance, there are a
lot of discrepancies between his book and what she drew. Yes,
And I think that's just a dead giveaway that she
had a mind of her own interpretation. She was a
powerful magician and occultist in her own right, and so
(21:21):
I it's one of the many, many things I love
about her is I think that she was tapped into
the wisdom of the spirit of the Tureau in her
own way, and she expressed that with her talent in
ways that he would not get all up in arms
about it, because you got to remember the context of
that time period. I do.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, she's finally starting to get her due a little bit,
and that's a beautiful thing. Can I go back to
my tiro what a one question? Do you have a
certain way that you teach your students to shuffle and
cut the deck? And the addendum to that question is
do you have clients shuffle and cut the deck?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I learned the terreau when I got my first deck.
All there was was the little white booklet. But wasn't
too long after that that I discovered Eden Gray's books,
and I absolutely I memorized them, not on purpose, but
just through a repetition. And she was pretty adamant, this
(22:26):
is how you do it. You shuffle this way, you
cut with your non dominant hand or your left einder.
And over the years I did that until I stopped.
The first big break I had with her was I
just gave up on reversals when I started reading for people.
(22:46):
Maybe I'm a little bit dyslexic or something. I would
lose track of. Am I turning the cars right side up?
Upside down? Is it upside down to me or them?
If I didn't do it exactly the same way every
time time, I wasn't sure. And I finally had a
friend who was a reader who said, oh my word,
(23:06):
I don't do that at all. I quit doing that
years ago, and I'm like, oh, whoa, you can? You
can break the rules? Oh my goodness. And you know,
for such a rebel, I can't believe how I wrote.
I was doing everything. So I stopped, and I've never
looked back, because honestly, I think reversals are kind of
(23:28):
artificial and as soon as they started coming out with
round decks like Mother Peace and Daughters of the Mood,
you could just lose your mind trying to figure out
what was reversed or not. From there, it all kind
of went downhill, and I realized, no, you don't really
have to follow those rules. They are only there for
(23:51):
this reason. You get in a muscle memory habit of
how you shuffle, how you lay out the cards, so
that you don't have to think about that anymore, so
that you are paying attention to the client, or you're
paying attention to your question, and you are not worrying
(24:11):
about what am I doing this right? I mean that
all goes back to that same question of am I
doing this right? Well, if you do it the same
way consistently, it becomes ritualized behavior, which frees your subconscious
up to go exploring into the mystery.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
That is so fascinating. And deb is probably going to
debate you hardcore in a minute. So I just wanted
to warn you to get good your boxing gloves on.
But I always wonder about the reversals too, because I
still I know what you mean about muscle memory, but
I will still flip some cards up down or left
(24:51):
to right, and like you said, I can't remember which
one I did, And I'm like, well, was that supposed
to be reversed or did I reverse it by flipping
it the wrong way? So that's so interesting. Exactly round one,
heading into the boxing ring.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
We have out of Debora.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Go ahead, here's my philosophy on that, Beth, which is
different from yours. Samantha and I met because she took
back to row course like eighteen years ago, and she
so wanted not to talk about reversals. She just was
not going there, and she wasn't She's just not going
to do it. And I've said to her then, as
(25:28):
I have said to I don't know how many hundreds
of students since then, that when you do not include
the potential meaning of the key reversed, you lose seventy
eight additional pieces of information that can be supported to you,
whereas you have seventy eight keys right set up. If
(25:49):
you consider that just to being a totally different piece
of information, you have one hundred and fifty six pieces
of information. So I am a firm believer in reading reversals.
I am also so pretty good at knowing what that
reversal means when I look at the key and how
it lies. For some people, that's very difficult. For some people,
it's very intimidating. I could imagine that you've got students
(26:13):
who feel that way, But I always invite my students
to really consider looking at the whole spectrum of what
the key could mean, and not necessarily opposite meetings, but
sometimes degrees of differences, for example, absolutely, and sometimes you
want reversals, I mean you want the three of swords reversed.
(26:34):
I mean, there's rat That's what I look at.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
How much time you got for a can of worms?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
We could go down that and we have another conversation
about No.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
It's an important can of worms, because it's a question
that comes up over and over and over again. I'd
love to hear your rebuttal, let me.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Start with saying that I love what Mary Grier's book
about reading reversals. It's right, and I love the liberation
of not having reversals mean the opposite and they don't
necessarily and they don't, and that's true. I agree with that.
(27:15):
But in my view, it seems that reversals are a
way to They just seem like an artificial construct to
either add or subtract shadow from the meaning of the cards,
and they add I think reversals just adds ambiguity that
(27:38):
is not necessary. The way I see the cards, right
side up or upside down, they are filled with light
and shadow. The interpretation can be any of those things.
I don't think that the position of it in terms
of how it faces the clearent, whether that's you or
the other person, I don't think that that changes the
(28:02):
meaning that is already embedded in the car, the message
of the card. So I don't really see that there's
an whole other seventy eight meanings to the cards. I'm sorry,
I just don't see that.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
It's okay, we can agree to disagree.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, but I'm intrigued by that, and I hope we
could talk about that again sometimes.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
I'd love that.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
That would be just wonderful.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And so here's another question, going back to samanthas one
oh one things. Invariably, folks who come into to Row
in our intro classes, they have a weather of reasons
why they are choosing to embark on this journey, but
often they come in with some kind of preconceived notions
and fears about what they're walking into. There's old tapes
(28:49):
embedded from various cultural and spiritual beliefs and whatnot, and
they're always frightened of the devil and the death card
and the tower Guard and whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I just spell that fear in my courses with them,
but I can still see that it's embedded in some way.
What do you do with students who have those?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
And one of the very first parts of my very
first part one on my classes is myth busting and
that is so much fun because people really just come
up with all kinds of crazy stuff, and to lay
it on the table and hear it out loud, you
realize it's so flimsy and ridiculous. The deeply embedded fears.
(29:31):
I totally relate to that, since, you know, I really
freaked out when I saw The Exorcist. I was a
brand new Tarot person and here's this whole thing about
Ouiji boards and the devil and how deeply religious at
the time, and I really thought, have I invited Satan
into my life? Oh my gosh, you know, But I
(29:54):
worked it through. I worked it through, and I just
got to the point of, like, you know what, I'm
with the Eve, baby, I'm point really comes down to it.
I'm with the eve. I don't care, but I do
respect the fact that not everybody feels that way. What
is so important in the midbusting is to understand what
(30:18):
the underpinnings of that are, where is that coming from?
Who benefits by questioning the power that you have when
you pick up the cars Because taro is a form
of deep personal empowerment, and to erase that from us,
(30:40):
to take that away and to claim that that we're
not allowed to do that, you have to wonder why
would that be in our culture and do we really
agree with that? And then you know, one of the
other things that we do is we play a game
called good Card, Bad Card, and so I have everybody
(31:01):
pick out the scariest card, the one that really freaks
them out, and the exercises. Now look at this card
and imagine you're working for an ad agency, and sell
me this card. Fun write it down and sell it
to me. Why it is just the bees knaves? You know,
(31:21):
why is this a great card? And then we do
the opposite. Take your favorite happiest, most wonderful Tarot card
and tell me why it's scary and it sucks and
it's not a good card, and you begin to see you, Oh,
it's very relative. It depends on so many things, and
(31:44):
it's another exercise and learning to really see the card,
to really what is actually there that is not your
projection based on cultural values and old scripts and so forth.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Idea. It's a lovely, lovely exercise.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Steal it. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I appreciate your offering here. Thank you so much. And again,
as you're talking about seeing patterns in the keys, talk
about the death card, the woman underneath the horses spoke,
it's the woman from the strength card. How does what
does that mean? Where did that come from? What's that about?
But when you really break you apart and look at
it in pieces like that, it's not so scary.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Either, exactly exactly. It's really like a holographic picture of
the multiverse, and there's so many different and I just
adore the fact that panel Colmas smith pick See made
those connections in her art and it has and despite
the fact that there are zillions of decks out there now,
(32:47):
I still love that deck the best of all because
it has everything and more and it opens and opens
and opens over a lifetime.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I imagine that you like Samantha and I have a zillion
decks and some of them are really pretty to look at,
and we've never cracked the book. And yeah, you know,
nice artwork. It's really fun, and.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
They did, they did.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
I can name names for decks for that, and some
that I cherish because we have Dolly's Dick. I mean,
that's way cool to have that, right, But do I
read from any of them? No, it's this one old
old road deck right here. Smith, it's the og.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
It's the post for a reason. Okay, So I've gotten
over my fear of the death card and the devil
card and all of that. What took me a long
time to get over fearful in terms of reading, and
it still pops up from time to time. Are the
court cards?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Those are hard for people are the hardest.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, could you give us some insight into how you
see the court cards?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Well, you know, of course they're really because they might
be me, they might be you, they might just be energyic.
Yeah right, exactly, So how do we know? And so
much depends on context everything. But here's what I offer.
The more you play with the court cards, and I
(34:19):
will let me back up. And I also say I
am not a young man. I am not a psychologist,
but there is that aspect that makes court cards really
interesting and accessible for a lot of people that are
so having archetypes in the court cards can be very
(34:39):
helpful for people that are bought into that system. I'm
not so much, but it is helpful to keep it
in the back of my mind. But really I invite
people to begin looking for humans in their lives that
(35:00):
align in some way with the court cards. The very
first thing is to think about what suit did they
belong to? What is that suit all about? And so
when you have the Queen of Swords, how is she
different from the Queen of Cops just in terms of
the suit alone? And then taking the hierarchy, because the
(35:20):
court cards are hierarchical, they always have rank. No matter
what deck you're working with, there is a ranking system,
and so keeping that in mind, you have the lowest
level rank to do with creativity and passion? Will that
be the page of ones? Right? So then you break
(35:40):
it down in those ways and people can begin to recognize, oh,
well again, is this somebody I know or is it me?
And it could be both actually, But I also love
the fact that the two ways that people inevitably really
(36:01):
clicked with the Tarot coming into their lives is through
the court cards, where you begin to see the cars
coming up and journaling. You see the same court card
over and over, and the light bulb goes along one day,
oh man, that's my mother in law. I would know
hurt anywhere. That doesn't mean that every time that car
(36:22):
comes up it's your mother in law, but suddenly you
have an actual person that you understand that card is
really reflecting. I think the other gateway drug to the tarot,
in my opinion, is the birth cards. I really love
the birth cards, and that's so much fun to play
(36:43):
around with.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Okay, so I have a piggybot question on that. I
haven't really done that with the court cards, so thank
you for that homework assignment. But when I first met
deb and was learning the Ureu, I use the cards
as just touchstones for my intuition. I didn't really learn
the cards for quite a long It took me a
(37:04):
long time. And the King of Swords, for some reason,
I was doing a reading for a woman pulled the
King of Swords and I saw her writing and I
was like, oh, the pen is mightier than the sword,
and for some reason, that card always meant a writing
project or a writer. That's not what the King of
Swords means. But for me, now, all these years later,
(37:26):
when the King of Swords appears, it usually means something
about writing. Do you ever find that happen? Like, even
if you apply a different meaning to the card, it's
almost like the Toureau spirit knows, oh, bad things, This
means such and such, So toss that card in there
so she can help the client realize this.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Sure, yeah, because I do think this is where I
really go off into la lall at. I do think
that over time, the Toureau gets to know you. That's
why I really do think it has the spirit of
the Toureau has some kind of awareness, consciousness, something that
(38:05):
freaks me out to say that out loud, but I
do believe that. So you and the cards begin to
develop a shorthand and inside jokes. Oh my god, the
inside jokes. But you'll pull a card and I'll say,
It'll be sort of like, oh, yeah, that's my default,
you know, should I be thinking about that? Then you
(38:26):
weigh that it's like, well, it probably is not out
of ten times when that card comes up it's telling
me because we have this inside thing going on, but
also keeping your mind open because this is not all
about me, This is about my quaring. Does that make sense?
It does.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
I speak to my students about relationship, building a relationship
with Tureau. I think that's a part of the respect
for the deck, part of how you store all that
stuff that goes with actually that, and then how you
actually have a conversation. You know, Oh, here's the queen
of entacles. That's a mother in law, and that's a
(39:11):
damp short and for you know, but is that true
in this situation?
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Right? You have to think exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Going back to the ethics, you have some notes on
your website under getting a reading with you that I
really respect and just wanted to mention. One of the
things you say is my consultations are suggestions for your
personal growth and wisdom based on my interpretations of the Tureau.
Your choices are your own. I love that you say. Similarly,
(39:42):
please do not ask me to tell you what someone
else is thinking, doing or feeling. Will not use my
gifts to peek into anybody else's business that is not present, right,
That's so great, and it's something deb and I are
often preaching and teaching and talking about. So can you
tell us how as an ethical to RO reader you
(40:03):
handle that. When people come to you for a reading
and they're like, oh, is my son going to get
married or whatever?
Speaker 3 (40:12):
The question is, Yes, I've gotten so many of those,
for instance, is my husband having an affair? And I
will gently offer to the person, you know, first of
all the feedback of I'm so sorry, I can't imagine
what you must be going through. You must be really worried.
I can tell that you're very unhappy whatever. But I
(40:36):
will also tell them pretty clearly I am not allowed
by my own ethical choices, and also to treu, but
I don't really go into all that. But I can't
go looking through his underwear drawer for evidence, which is
kind of what that would be like, and it's not
(40:57):
that helpful. Let's look at how the cards can help
you right now, whatever is going on, What do you
most need to know to have peace of mind about
your marriage? And I have never had anybody argue that
that's not what they want. I think that really hearing
(41:19):
the deep pain in other people, if you can't handle that,
you cannot give terror readings, forget it, but hearing and
honoring what people are going through and the suffering they
may be undergoing, and then offering not the band aid
but the debt that will help them find their way,
(41:42):
because every soul that you meet is perfectly capable of
finding their strength and finding their power and making good
choices if given half a chance. And you know, I
can't count how many women are, especially that have been abused,
and they are really and stated state, and you have
(42:07):
to understand, and I'm sure you both know that by
the time somebody comes to a tarot reader, a lot
of times they've exhausted everything else, and we're kind of
a last resort of help, help, help, I need help,
and I don't know where else to go. So recognizing
that and honoring the fact that you're you are okay.
(42:29):
It's not like I'm gonna make you okay, or the
cards or circumstances are gonna make you okay. I'm here
to remind you you really are okay. You really do
have an inner core of strength that you might have
gotten disconnected from. But let's take a look at that.
Let's give you your power back so you could make good
(42:49):
choices that you know help you move.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Forward in a better way.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
See that's why we just love your work and the
way you.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Go about it.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Exactly you do this too, is that you probably have
a list of therapists and folks that recommend to be ye,
which I think is such an important thing. Thank you
for that. Tell us if you're willing to how the
name Beth Owl's Daughter came to be.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Oh, I love that. I used to make people take
my classes to find out. But okay, well.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
If you don't want to do it, that's okay.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
No, no, I'm teasing. It's really okay. I was enritual
and I was searching for my magical name with the
goddess and with my guides and doing you know, deep
work around that, and it was offered to me with
a couple of other options, and I thought about it,
(43:42):
and I thought, that's perfect because my grandfather and my
father's initials are ow L, and my grandfather had a
collection of at the time of his death, I think
we counted about three thousand owl things, you know, that
he had collected. My father inherited all of those, and
(44:05):
everybody even called my father who so he is the
owl whose daughter I am. And before he passed away,
I told him about my magical name and everything, and
he thought it was hilarious. He just loved that. Yes,
I'm Beth Owl's daughter, and he goes, oh, that's great.
So yeah, it's not anything that mysterious, except that thanks
(44:29):
to my grandfather's owl collection things, ever since I was
really little, we would go to their house and I
just fell in love with owls, and Al really became
my guide and throughout my life, and owls always turn
up when there are big things happening. And Al has
(44:50):
been my teacher for a long well as long as
I can remember. So it's both things.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Thank you for that. Here's one more thing that you
need to know about Beth. Beth and I in addition
to sharing this deep love and respect for Toroe, you
know we're both old dead heads. That's all I know today,
And so off the top of your head, Ben, can
you tell us one of your favorite lines from a
dead cell Once in a while.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
You can't shed the light if you've in the strange places,
if you look at.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
It right from Scarlet Pegonias.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yay, I give me chills because that applies to what
we've been saying this whole hour about reading.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
To Roe, and I was talking over yourself. I say
it one more time for us.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Once in a while you get shown the light and
the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Thank you, Robert Hunter. Thank you for that. I knew
you could do that. I knew you wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Well, the hard part is choosing if you plan ice
you're going to harvest wind. I've been thinking about that
one a lot o.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
I love that one too lately. So anyway, thank you
for that. I appreciate you doing that with me. Okay, Samantha,
one of the things we need to do is to
give Beth some time here. If you would please to
tell us how folks can connect with you. So tell
us about your website, your newsletter.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
My website is alsdaughter dot com, and on my website
you'll find my blog, where I mainly focus on just
discussing the subbots, the holy days of the Sacred Wheel
of the year, other things. Every once in a while,
(46:36):
it also has my card of the week. Every Monday,
I discuss a new Tarot card of the week. I
do that at length because I really disagree with the
idea that you can learn the Tarot through keywords and memorization.
I am passionate about that. I want people to understand
(46:59):
the row through all its complexity and its nuance, so
that you find your own truth in and you just
can't do that by giving somebody a five paragraph this
is what it means, because it means so much more
than that. So that's the main thing. And on my
(47:20):
website you'll see where you could sign up for my newsletter.
That's where I first announced my Car of the Week.
I had taken a break due to some personal things
going on from offering readings because once again, I don't
feel like it is ethical for me to offer readings
if I'm not in a good place and I'm not
(47:41):
receptive if I'm all caught up in my own little
world and my dramas. What kind of reader am I?
So I had taken a break, but I'm loads better.
I'm very grounded. So I am now offering readings and
can on a limited basis, and that too, is high
I did on my website. You can find the links
(48:02):
there to go find out more perfect.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
It's such a great website and I just want to
ps on that. When I was Deb's to Rose student,
I didn't like the little books. I didn't even I mean,
I guess I liked eating Grace. I don't want to
get both of you mad at me, but I just
I just didn't. I couldn't feel all like you said
the nuances of the card. And I would call deb
(48:28):
at ten o'clock, eleven o'clock at night. And finally, after
a couple of weeks of this, she was like, go
to Bethowl's Daughters website.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
How long ago?
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's how long ago. And it was what
I needed is to pull the meat off the bone,
you know, to help me really figure out each of
those cards. So I just I really appreciate you, and
it's just such a thrill to get to see you
kind of in person over the zoom, and I just
wanted to humbly thank you for all your beautiful thank
(49:01):
you so much, so thank you so much for coming on.
We'd love to have you back on. I feel like
we just scratched the surface with you. So okay, she's nodding,
so hopefully we will have Beth back on the show.
Thank you guys for listening. I hope you have a
magical week with your own deck of Touro cards. Remember,
as always, to be the light for yourself and others.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Pack care everyone.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Thank you for listening to Psychic Teachers, your podcast for seekers,
light workers, mystics, and magical thinkers. If you like the show,
please tell a friend or leave us a review. Wherever
you listen to your podcast. For more information, check out
our Facebook page Psychic Teachers, or our websites Samantha Fay
dot com and Debbowen dot com. Thanks for listening and
(49:49):
have a great week.
Hello everyone. Before we dive into today's fantastic chat with
our Toureau expert, Deb, and I wanted to ask you
to share our show with a friend or leave a
comment on Spotify or Apple. It really helps the podcast.
You can also show your love and support by signing
up for our newsletters or following us on social media.
On our websites Samantha Fay dot com and Deb Bowen
(00:40):
dot com, you can find our e courses, meditations, my
crystal bracelets. You can pre order Deb's new book, Crafting
The Wheel of the Year, and on my site you
can order signed copies of my books The Awake Dreamer
and Heavenly Alliance. When you order anything from me, you
also get a free fortune cookie and a crystal chosen
(01:00):
just for you, along with some other goodies. Okay, let's
get to our guest and Touro talk. Hello and welcome
to Psychic Teachers. I'm your host Samantha.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Fay and I'm Dan Bowen.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And joining us on the show today is the well
known Toro reader and writer, Beth Owl's daughter. After several
decades working as an IT programmer, manager, technical writer and instructor,
Beth left the corporate world and followed her heart into
the world of freelance writing. Her essays and features have
been published in Interchange magazine. She had a monthly column
(01:33):
for years in the Meta Arts magazine, among several others.
She's also written a fabulous cookbook, and she's been offering
tourou readings for over fifty years. Beth is a member
of the American Tourou Association, the Terrasophy Association, and Tourou
Association of the British Isles. She's also founder of one
(01:54):
of the world's oldest, largest and most active teruro meetups.
But the main reason she's on our show today is
just because Deb and I have been following your work
for decades.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Wait.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Deb, absolutely we have. Thank you so much for being
with us.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Beth delighted. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that decades. Yeah, wow,
yeah for true.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
And I have to tell our listeners that when I
suggested to Samantha that week, I abs skewed her. Come on,
I said, but she probably won't, and I'm really nervous
to ask her, and because you know, she's bethsell daughter,
and I'm nervous about that because well, and Samantha said, well,
then I'll email her, and I thought I could, all right,
(02:40):
let's Samantha do that and then and you were so
gracious and said yes, And I'm so thrilled. Let's start
by just a little history with you. If we could
tell us how you got started with Tua, How did
tro come into your life? Oh?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
How much time you got? Well? Was Paulton in my
hippie days, which I am basically onreacon structed hippie, So
there you go. I was hitchhiking up and down in
California and I met a guy that offered to cast
my astrology chart and I'm like, well, sure, but that
(03:14):
would be good because I'm right on the cusp between
cancer and LEO and I've never known That's all I
knew about it. And he cast his chart. I didn't
know him from Adam. I had met him for like
five minutes, and he told me things that nobody knew,
I mean nobody knew, and I was blown away. So
(03:37):
I started trying to learn astrology. Well, this is back
in ancient days before fire was invented, and there were
certainly no calculators. I'm a total mathaphoe, and so here
I am trying to figure out stuff by hand, and
I persisted long enough that I could sort of get
(04:00):
the hang of it, but it was way hard. Then
I found this little book about the e she and
it was a daily diary and it would give you
a reading for the day and then you would cast
the coins and see what you're reading was. And within
two months I was synchronizing. I was getting the same
(04:25):
coins as the printed book was saying, and I'm like,
whoam this is really interesting. So I did that for
about a year. Well, finally in nineteen seventy two, my
best friend and I were headed down to the local
headshop in Gainesville, Florida, where I was living, not that
(04:47):
far away from Mary Greer. I wish I had known
at the time, But there by the bongs and the
water beds was a little display of tarot cards, like
maybe five decks. That was probably all there were at
the time, and there was something about it that just clicked.
(05:08):
I mean, I looked at those images that were on
the box. They were sealed, but I'm like, I know this.
It just spoke to me on a deep level. And
so he bought the aquarium to row and I got
the lighter weightsn and that is the deck I still
used to this day for my Monday readings. I just
(05:31):
fell in love with that. And when he and I
took our decks home and started playing with we realized,
and this is not a toy, This is not fooling around.
This is big stuff. It was never scary or terrible
except right after I saw The Exorcist. Shortly afterwards freaked
me out. I was threw away my cars. I'm so
(05:55):
glad I didn't, but we realized this is big and
ever since then I have just been in love with them.
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
One of the reasons that I wanted so much to
talk to you is that in reading your weekly newsletters,
it's very clear to me that the ethics of this
work is really really important to you, and it certainly
is to us as well. And we talk about that. Boy,
if you take a class with me, you may not
be able to read to Row. When you're done with JEW,
(06:26):
will know what the ethics of reading to Row is.
And so I love that about your work, and I
really appreciate you helping be a part of that community
that really does speak to the ethics and the seriousness
and the responsibility of the work. Absolutely, I teach also,
(06:48):
and I do I drill that we talk at length
about what an unethical reading looks like. I talk at
length about even if you don't become a reader, or
here's how to spot trouble and avoid readers that are skanky.
I've had so many clients that I've had to clean
(07:08):
up after somebody else.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
You know that it's just awful. Well, every profession has that.
I mean, it's just not tourou It's you know, everybody,
But I think what torow It's people are so vulnerable
and are reading. It's just I'm passionate about that.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Yeah, no, and I so appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I really do.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I include in my handout the American to Row Association's
Code of Ethics, and I say to my students, every
profession that has a code of ethics has a code
of ethics because somebody behaved unethically and they needed to
write the rule. Stay absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
One of the things that a lot of the students
that we talk to and a lot of our listeners
who email us often ask, is how do you know, oh,
when you're ready to offer to roll readings? Because both
of you have said you never fully know everything about
toure you know, you're always learning something, So could you
(08:13):
just tell us about your process of going you know what,
I think I'm going to offer to roll readings and
maybe some signposts that will help people who are also
learning the.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Tourou know when they're ready. Yeah, sure, I'm happy to
you because I actually have a class on going Pro.
It's three levels. When I teach beginners, one is just
a general introduction and this is what the deck is
comprised of. The second one is really becoming a reader,
(08:46):
so how to read, and that's an all day extravaganza.
Let me tell you he which is fun in person
on zoom you know, not as much. But then my
going Pro class, I really do talk about that a lot.
And one of the big factors that I see is
(09:06):
people have to get over the idea of being right.
As long as people are focused on getting it right,
they are not focused on hearing the queer ent. And
so a lot of what I teach is like how
to listen to people, how to open your heart in
(09:30):
compassion for the person across the table. They are the
center of the reading, not your expertise. And newbies, you know,
of course, are a little nervous about getting it wrong.
If you're always going to have that slight nervousness. I
still do. I still think, oh my god, what if
(09:51):
I blank and I don't know what this I mean? Well,
I really don't worry about that. We're not actually don't.
But I can understand that the problem is when the
focus shifts back to you, you are not ready. I
am all about giving readings as an act of service,
(10:11):
not as a way to make money, not as a
way to ego trip. It is really really important that
you love the cards enough to understand why they are
an act of service for others.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
That is great advice for anyone offering any kind of reading,
whether it's mediumship, intuitive or to row or a combination.
Thank you for that answer.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I also tell my students to get yourself out of
the way and let Terro speak. If this is about
I think, then this isn't a Toro reading, right, This
is what what is toro say? Right? And I also,
and I bet you do this too, in some way,
invite your your students to say a prayer or meditation,
or create some kind of a bubble in which you're working.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Yeah, we call it the screen porch. You know. Allow
me to be able to see clearly and to feel
everything that I need to be able to feel. But
I am behind the screen here, and so I'm out
of the way.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Just for example, that sends out this amazing email every
week to folks who subscribe to it, and it's just
filled with keen observations about the key that she apparently
chooses you every week. It's very clear that you don't
choose the key, it chooses. I love that, And so
(11:41):
there's this observation about that, and some to wrote teaching
about that, and some ways in which folks who get
the newsletter can see themselves in the message from the key,
and that's lovely. And then you have a group of
friends who are astrologers who also work with you to
give you some great information. So the news and we'll
(12:04):
tell you about how to get in touch with Beth
and gif her newsletter. But I love how you blend
the skill of astrology and to row with your friends
with that. Would you talk some about how that works
and how you came to that.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Well, I love astrology, and as I was saying, that's
that's kind of how I found myself in the whole
metaphysical world. Was my dabbling with the astrology in the
early days, but I have tremendous respect for astrologers, and
I have some dear friends, not just the two that
(12:39):
I mostly feature in my newsletter, but I have lots
of really dear friends that are astrologers, and I just
love seeing how the planets in those stars and everything
seemed to really echo what the Toureau is doing, and
vice versa. I find out really fascinating. When I first
(13:01):
began to notice it, I really had not folded in
people's predictions or their analyzes of what was happening astrologically.
I just was reading different astrologers that I liked. But
I'm like, huh, you know, this is really echoing underlying
what the tureau is saying. I wonder what that's about.
(13:24):
And so as time went on, I began to explore that,
and it's like, Wow, this is pretty amazing. Toureau and
astrology are really so harmonious together, and I love showcasing that.
And the two women that I mostly feature, Elizabeth Grace
out of New York and Laura Bevin who's from the UK,
(13:45):
are just brilliant and we do share notes sometimes, but
most of the time I'm waiting to see what they're
going to write. You know, I read it and it's
like wow, and there's this in this that totally blend
with what the Tureau is saying.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Don't you think that's one of the gifts of Tourou
is that it encompasses world beliefs and cultures and mythologies
and the human condition and art types and numerology and
sacred geometry.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
And absolutely and it is such a beautiful blend of
all of human wisdom. When I pull the card on mondays,
I go through an ever. I finally had to draw
the line. For a while, I was getting longer and
longer and longer preparation, and it was like, okay, you know,
it's taken all day. But I do invoke what I
(14:38):
call the spirit of the Tureau, and I think that
part of what animates it is all of the wisdom
of the artists and the poets and the alchemists and philosophers.
And I mean, at the tippy top of it, it's
over six hundred years of human wisdom and traditions. Even
(15:02):
below that though, it goes all the way back to
Platonic philosophy and really ancient wisdom. All of that is
all in this little pack of cards. It's just astonishing
to me. And if you understand that and you open
that door, it's just incredible what can be revealed.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I want to talk about some basic one oh one
stuff like your views unshuffling and cutting the deck. But
before we get to that, what's your opinion on the
magic of Teruro. What do you think is happening? Is
it our subconscious is our guides? Is it some mystical force?
What do you think happens when you lay out the cards?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Well, I mean you should ask that, because I really
have been wrestling with that for a long long time.
I believe that there is a spirit that is Touro.
It's a very animistic kind of a belief, where in
their own way, the cards are kind of alive. That
(16:06):
is my observation. I've seen that with my students. I've
seen it and sharing readings with other professionals, and over
late night drinks, a lot of those professionals will admit
there's something more going on here than just skill and
knowledge and shuffling some paper around. So I do believe
(16:28):
you can apply all kinds of metaphors to it. It's
a door that opens to wisdom with a capital W.
Now what wisdom with the capitol W is depends on you.
What do you think that means the divine? Maybe is
(16:50):
it the voice of angels? Maybe I think it's the
you know, it's the blind men and the elephant that
you can't literally see all sides of it, even if
you're not blind. But for the blind men and the elephant, Oh,
I think it's entailed. No, I think it's a trump. No,
I think it's a leg And it's all correct, that's
all true. Well, it's a great answer.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I agree, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So let me come back to that magic piece about
Toro for a second. I have and I know you
watch to road change lives and something way bigger than
me or you sitting there as the reader is happening here.
There's a synergy. There's an energy going on that we
(17:33):
may not be able to name or describe. Your description
of the spirit of to Row is absolutely lovely. One
of the things that I invite my students to do,
and I wonder if you do this, is I ask
them to invite in a to Row guide that helps
them work with the keys.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Is that something you do? I encourage people to welcome
in their guardian, guardian's guides and allies.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I do that too, but I mean a.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Specific tarot guidance. Yeah. I don't always ask my clients
to do that, but I do it. I had a
ton I always do. It depends on the client, you know,
if if I feel like they're receptive, then I will
say let us you know, let me ask you to
call in the guidance to Row.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
And the key that was on this week's newsletter, it's
the six of cups. And one of the things that
you point out is the guard with the sort of
staff or whatever he has it is in in the background.
And one of the things that I bet you do
as I do, is invite people who are just learning
(18:40):
to read to Row to pay attention to the details.
There are no accidents in the artwork. Do you agree
that that? Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (18:50):
The fact that what I what I start off with
and my one on one beginner's class is to learn
to read the tarot. You need to to see and
I'm going to show you how to see. But the
very first exercise I do in a class, especially when
we're a person and I can do it on zoom too,
(19:12):
is I pull out a non tarot deck that is
just images, and I pass around a random card and
I have people say what they see in it. Soul
Cards by Debor Chapins, and her technique is basically it's
finger painting, very very skillful, and these images can be
(19:34):
interpreted all kinds of ways, and there's no booklet. Everything
that you see there is correct. And by the end
of that little exercise and everybody hearing the other things
that people have seen and realizing, oh, this is how
to see and everybody can always do that unless they
(19:59):
have a visual pairmi, which is a whole other story,
which can be tricky, but but for most people, being
able to see something that is reflecting often how they're feeling,
what they're thinking about, that's a big part. So, yeah,
learning how to see the card and all the details
(20:20):
because everything in there, especially in the Waite Smith deck,
was put there by careful thought and design.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Wouldn't you love to be able to have a conversation
with Pixie?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Oh my god, I'm looking forward to it. Someday we do.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I hope I get there.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Wherever she did this.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
And you know that's a question that students asked me.
I mean, I bet they do you too, is how
much of what she drew and painted came from for her,
from an intuitive place, and how much of it was
mandated by weight?
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Well, I do know, Like, for instance, there are a
lot of discrepancies between his book and what she drew. Yes,
And I think that's just a dead giveaway that she
had a mind of her own interpretation. She was a
powerful magician and occultist in her own right, and so
(21:21):
I it's one of the many, many things I love
about her is I think that she was tapped into
the wisdom of the spirit of the Tureau in her
own way, and she expressed that with her talent in
ways that he would not get all up in arms
about it, because you got to remember the context of
that time period. I do.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yeah, she's finally starting to get her due a little bit,
and that's a beautiful thing. Can I go back to
my tiro what a one question? Do you have a
certain way that you teach your students to shuffle and
cut the deck? And the addendum to that question is
do you have clients shuffle and cut the deck?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I learned the terreau when I got my first deck.
All there was was the little white booklet. But wasn't
too long after that that I discovered Eden Gray's books,
and I absolutely I memorized them, not on purpose, but
just through a repetition. And she was pretty adamant, this
(22:26):
is how you do it. You shuffle this way, you
cut with your non dominant hand or your left einder.
And over the years I did that until I stopped.
The first big break I had with her was I
just gave up on reversals when I started reading for people.
(22:46):
Maybe I'm a little bit dyslexic or something. I would
lose track of. Am I turning the cars right side up?
Upside down? Is it upside down to me or them?
If I didn't do it exactly the same way every
time time, I wasn't sure. And I finally had a
friend who was a reader who said, oh my word,
(23:06):
I don't do that at all. I quit doing that
years ago, and I'm like, oh, whoa, you can? You
can break the rules? Oh my goodness. And you know,
for such a rebel, I can't believe how I wrote.
I was doing everything. So I stopped, and I've never
looked back, because honestly, I think reversals are kind of
(23:28):
artificial and as soon as they started coming out with
round decks like Mother Peace and Daughters of the Mood,
you could just lose your mind trying to figure out
what was reversed or not. From there, it all kind
of went downhill, and I realized, no, you don't really
have to follow those rules. They are only there for
(23:51):
this reason. You get in a muscle memory habit of
how you shuffle, how you lay out the cards, so
that you don't have to think about that anymore, so
that you are paying attention to the client, or you're
paying attention to your question, and you are not worrying
(24:11):
about what am I doing this right? I mean that
all goes back to that same question of am I
doing this right? Well, if you do it the same
way consistently, it becomes ritualized behavior, which frees your subconscious
up to go exploring into the mystery.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
That is so fascinating. And deb is probably going to
debate you hardcore in a minute. So I just wanted
to warn you to get good your boxing gloves on.
But I always wonder about the reversals too, because I
still I know what you mean about muscle memory, but
I will still flip some cards up down or left
(24:51):
to right, and like you said, I can't remember which
one I did, And I'm like, well, was that supposed
to be reversed or did I reverse it by flipping
it the wrong way? So that's so interesting. Exactly round one,
heading into the boxing ring.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
We have out of Debora.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Go ahead, here's my philosophy on that, Beth, which is
different from yours. Samantha and I met because she took
back to row course like eighteen years ago, and she
so wanted not to talk about reversals. She just was
not going there, and she wasn't She's just not going
to do it. And I've said to her then, as
(25:28):
I have said to I don't know how many hundreds
of students since then, that when you do not include
the potential meaning of the key reversed, you lose seventy
eight additional pieces of information that can be supported to you,
whereas you have seventy eight keys right set up. If
(25:49):
you consider that just to being a totally different piece
of information, you have one hundred and fifty six pieces
of information. So I am a firm believer in reading reversals.
I am also so pretty good at knowing what that
reversal means when I look at the key and how
it lies. For some people, that's very difficult. For some people,
it's very intimidating. I could imagine that you've got students
(26:13):
who feel that way, But I always invite my students
to really consider looking at the whole spectrum of what
the key could mean, and not necessarily opposite meetings, but
sometimes degrees of differences, for example, absolutely, and sometimes you
want reversals, I mean you want the three of swords reversed.
(26:34):
I mean, there's rat That's what I look at.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
How much time you got for a can of worms?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
We could go down that and we have another conversation
about No.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
It's an important can of worms, because it's a question
that comes up over and over and over again. I'd
love to hear your rebuttal, let me.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Start with saying that I love what Mary Grier's book
about reading reversals. It's right, and I love the liberation
of not having reversals mean the opposite and they don't
necessarily and they don't, and that's true. I agree with that.
(27:15):
But in my view, it seems that reversals are a
way to They just seem like an artificial construct to
either add or subtract shadow from the meaning of the cards,
and they add I think reversals just adds ambiguity that
(27:38):
is not necessary. The way I see the cards, right
side up or upside down, they are filled with light
and shadow. The interpretation can be any of those things.
I don't think that the position of it in terms
of how it faces the clearent, whether that's you or
the other person, I don't think that that changes the
(28:02):
meaning that is already embedded in the car, the message
of the card. So I don't really see that there's
an whole other seventy eight meanings to the cards. I'm sorry,
I just don't see that.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
It's okay, we can agree to disagree.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, but I'm intrigued by that, and I hope we
could talk about that again sometimes.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
I'd love that.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
That would be just wonderful.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And so here's another question, going back to samanthas one
oh one things. Invariably, folks who come into to Row
in our intro classes, they have a weather of reasons
why they are choosing to embark on this journey, but
often they come in with some kind of preconceived notions
and fears about what they're walking into. There's old tapes
(28:49):
embedded from various cultural and spiritual beliefs and whatnot, and
they're always frightened of the devil and the death card
and the tower Guard and whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I just spell that fear in my courses with them,
but I can still see that it's embedded in some way.
What do you do with students who have those?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
And one of the very first parts of my very
first part one on my classes is myth busting and
that is so much fun because people really just come
up with all kinds of crazy stuff, and to lay
it on the table and hear it out loud, you
realize it's so flimsy and ridiculous. The deeply embedded fears.
(29:31):
I totally relate to that, since, you know, I really
freaked out when I saw The Exorcist. I was a
brand new Tarot person and here's this whole thing about
Ouiji boards and the devil and how deeply religious at
the time, and I really thought, have I invited Satan
into my life? Oh my gosh, you know, But I
(29:54):
worked it through. I worked it through, and I just
got to the point of, like, you know what, I'm
with the Eve, baby, I'm point really comes down to it.
I'm with the eve. I don't care, but I do
respect the fact that not everybody feels that way. What
is so important in the midbusting is to understand what
(30:18):
the underpinnings of that are, where is that coming from?
Who benefits by questioning the power that you have when
you pick up the cars Because taro is a form
of deep personal empowerment, and to erase that from us,
(30:40):
to take that away and to claim that that we're
not allowed to do that, you have to wonder why
would that be in our culture and do we really
agree with that? And then you know, one of the
other things that we do is we play a game
called good Card, Bad Card, and so I have everybody
(31:01):
pick out the scariest card, the one that really freaks
them out, and the exercises. Now look at this card
and imagine you're working for an ad agency, and sell
me this card. Fun write it down and sell it
to me. Why it is just the bees knaves? You know,
(31:21):
why is this a great card? And then we do
the opposite. Take your favorite happiest, most wonderful Tarot card
and tell me why it's scary and it sucks and
it's not a good card, and you begin to see you, Oh,
it's very relative. It depends on so many things, and
(31:44):
it's another exercise and learning to really see the card,
to really what is actually there that is not your
projection based on cultural values and old scripts and so forth.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Idea. It's a lovely, lovely exercise.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Steal it. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I appreciate your offering here. Thank you so much. And again,
as you're talking about seeing patterns in the keys, talk
about the death card, the woman underneath the horses spoke,
it's the woman from the strength card. How does what
does that mean? Where did that come from? What's that about?
But when you really break you apart and look at
it in pieces like that, it's not so scary.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Either, exactly exactly. It's really like a holographic picture of
the multiverse, and there's so many different and I just
adore the fact that panel Colmas smith pick See made
those connections in her art and it has and despite
the fact that there are zillions of decks out there now,
(32:47):
I still love that deck the best of all because
it has everything and more and it opens and opens
and opens over a lifetime.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I imagine that you like Samantha and I have a zillion
decks and some of them are really pretty to look at,
and we've never cracked the book. And yeah, you know,
nice artwork. It's really fun, and.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
They did, they did.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
I can name names for decks for that, and some
that I cherish because we have Dolly's Dick. I mean,
that's way cool to have that, right, But do I
read from any of them? No, it's this one old
old road deck right here. Smith, it's the og.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
It's the post for a reason. Okay, So I've gotten
over my fear of the death card and the devil
card and all of that. What took me a long
time to get over fearful in terms of reading, and
it still pops up from time to time. Are the
court cards?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Those are hard for people are the hardest.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, could you give us some insight into how you
see the court cards?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Well, you know, of course they're really because they might
be me, they might be you, they might just be energyic.
Yeah right, exactly, So how do we know? And so
much depends on context everything. But here's what I offer.
The more you play with the court cards, and I
(34:19):
will let me back up. And I also say I
am not a young man. I am not a psychologist,
but there is that aspect that makes court cards really
interesting and accessible for a lot of people that are
so having archetypes in the court cards can be very
(34:39):
helpful for people that are bought into that system. I'm
not so much, but it is helpful to keep it
in the back of my mind. But really I invite
people to begin looking for humans in their lives that
(35:00):
align in some way with the court cards. The very
first thing is to think about what suit did they
belong to? What is that suit all about? And so
when you have the Queen of Swords, how is she
different from the Queen of Cops just in terms of
the suit alone? And then taking the hierarchy, because the
(35:20):
court cards are hierarchical, they always have rank. No matter
what deck you're working with, there is a ranking system,
and so keeping that in mind, you have the lowest
level rank to do with creativity and passion? Will that
be the page of ones? Right? So then you break
(35:40):
it down in those ways and people can begin to recognize, oh,
well again, is this somebody I know or is it me?
And it could be both actually, But I also love
the fact that the two ways that people inevitably really
(36:01):
clicked with the Tarot coming into their lives is through
the court cards, where you begin to see the cars
coming up and journaling. You see the same court card
over and over, and the light bulb goes along one day,
oh man, that's my mother in law. I would know
hurt anywhere. That doesn't mean that every time that car
(36:22):
comes up it's your mother in law, but suddenly you
have an actual person that you understand that card is
really reflecting. I think the other gateway drug to the tarot,
in my opinion, is the birth cards. I really love
the birth cards, and that's so much fun to play
(36:43):
around with.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Okay, so I have a piggybot question on that. I
haven't really done that with the court cards, so thank
you for that homework assignment. But when I first met
deb and was learning the Ureu, I use the cards
as just touchstones for my intuition. I didn't really learn
the cards for quite a long It took me a
(37:04):
long time. And the King of Swords, for some reason,
I was doing a reading for a woman pulled the
King of Swords and I saw her writing and I
was like, oh, the pen is mightier than the sword,
and for some reason, that card always meant a writing
project or a writer. That's not what the King of
Swords means. But for me, now, all these years later,
(37:26):
when the King of Swords appears, it usually means something
about writing. Do you ever find that happen? Like, even
if you apply a different meaning to the card, it's
almost like the Toureau spirit knows, oh, bad things, This
means such and such, So toss that card in there
so she can help the client realize this.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Sure, yeah, because I do think this is where I
really go off into la lall at. I do think
that over time, the Toureau gets to know you. That's
why I really do think it has the spirit of
the Toureau has some kind of awareness, consciousness, something that
(38:05):
freaks me out to say that out loud, but I
do believe that. So you and the cards begin to
develop a shorthand and inside jokes. Oh my god, the
inside jokes. But you'll pull a card and I'll say,
It'll be sort of like, oh, yeah, that's my default,
you know, should I be thinking about that? Then you
(38:26):
weigh that it's like, well, it probably is not out
of ten times when that card comes up it's telling
me because we have this inside thing going on, but
also keeping your mind open because this is not all
about me, This is about my quaring. Does that make sense?
It does.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
I speak to my students about relationship, building a relationship
with Tureau. I think that's a part of the respect
for the deck, part of how you store all that
stuff that goes with actually that, and then how you
actually have a conversation. You know, Oh, here's the queen
of entacles. That's a mother in law, and that's a
(39:11):
damp short and for you know, but is that true
in this situation?
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Right? You have to think exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Going back to the ethics, you have some notes on
your website under getting a reading with you that I
really respect and just wanted to mention. One of the
things you say is my consultations are suggestions for your
personal growth and wisdom based on my interpretations of the Tureau.
Your choices are your own. I love that you say. Similarly,
(39:42):
please do not ask me to tell you what someone
else is thinking, doing or feeling. Will not use my
gifts to peek into anybody else's business that is not present, right,
That's so great, and it's something deb and I are
often preaching and teaching and talking about. So can you
tell us how as an ethical to RO reader you
(40:03):
handle that. When people come to you for a reading
and they're like, oh, is my son going to get
married or whatever?
Speaker 3 (40:12):
The question is, Yes, I've gotten so many of those,
for instance, is my husband having an affair? And I
will gently offer to the person, you know, first of
all the feedback of I'm so sorry, I can't imagine
what you must be going through. You must be really worried.
I can tell that you're very unhappy whatever. But I
(40:36):
will also tell them pretty clearly I am not allowed
by my own ethical choices, and also to treu, but
I don't really go into all that. But I can't
go looking through his underwear drawer for evidence, which is
kind of what that would be like, and it's not
(40:57):
that helpful. Let's look at how the cards can help
you right now, whatever is going on, What do you
most need to know to have peace of mind about
your marriage? And I have never had anybody argue that
that's not what they want. I think that really hearing
(41:19):
the deep pain in other people, if you can't handle that,
you cannot give terror readings, forget it, but hearing and
honoring what people are going through and the suffering they
may be undergoing, and then offering not the band aid
but the debt that will help them find their way,
(41:42):
because every soul that you meet is perfectly capable of
finding their strength and finding their power and making good
choices if given half a chance. And you know, I
can't count how many women are, especially that have been abused,
and they are really and stated state, and you have
(42:07):
to understand, and I'm sure you both know that by
the time somebody comes to a tarot reader, a lot
of times they've exhausted everything else, and we're kind of
a last resort of help, help, help, I need help,
and I don't know where else to go. So recognizing
that and honoring the fact that you're you are okay.
(42:29):
It's not like I'm gonna make you okay, or the
cards or circumstances are gonna make you okay. I'm here
to remind you you really are okay. You really do
have an inner core of strength that you might have
gotten disconnected from. But let's take a look at that.
Let's give you your power back so you could make good
(42:49):
choices that you know help you move.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Forward in a better way.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
See that's why we just love your work and the
way you.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Go about it.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Exactly you do this too, is that you probably have
a list of therapists and folks that recommend to be ye,
which I think is such an important thing. Thank you
for that. Tell us if you're willing to how the
name Beth Owl's Daughter came to be.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Oh, I love that. I used to make people take
my classes to find out. But okay, well.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
If you don't want to do it, that's okay.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
No, no, I'm teasing. It's really okay. I was enritual
and I was searching for my magical name with the
goddess and with my guides and doing you know, deep
work around that, and it was offered to me with
a couple of other options, and I thought about it,
(43:42):
and I thought, that's perfect because my grandfather and my
father's initials are ow L, and my grandfather had a
collection of at the time of his death, I think
we counted about three thousand owl things, you know, that
he had collected. My father inherited all of those, and
(44:05):
everybody even called my father who so he is the
owl whose daughter I am. And before he passed away,
I told him about my magical name and everything, and
he thought it was hilarious. He just loved that. Yes,
I'm Beth Owl's daughter, and he goes, oh, that's great.
So yeah, it's not anything that mysterious, except that thanks
(44:29):
to my grandfather's owl collection things, ever since I was
really little, we would go to their house and I
just fell in love with owls, and Al really became
my guide and throughout my life, and owls always turn
up when there are big things happening. And Al has
(44:50):
been my teacher for a long well as long as
I can remember. So it's both things.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Thank you for that. Here's one more thing that you
need to know about Beth. Beth and I in addition
to sharing this deep love and respect for Toroe, you
know we're both old dead heads. That's all I know today,
And so off the top of your head, Ben, can
you tell us one of your favorite lines from a
dead cell Once in a while.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
You can't shed the light if you've in the strange places,
if you look at.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
It right from Scarlet Pegonias.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yay, I give me chills because that applies to what
we've been saying this whole hour about reading.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
To Roe, and I was talking over yourself. I say
it one more time for us.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Once in a while you get shown the light and
the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Thank you, Robert Hunter. Thank you for that. I knew
you could do that. I knew you wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Well, the hard part is choosing if you plan ice
you're going to harvest wind. I've been thinking about that
one a lot o.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
I love that one too lately. So anyway, thank you
for that. I appreciate you doing that with me. Okay, Samantha,
one of the things we need to do is to
give Beth some time here. If you would please to
tell us how folks can connect with you. So tell
us about your website, your newsletter.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
My website is alsdaughter dot com, and on my website
you'll find my blog, where I mainly focus on just
discussing the subbots, the holy days of the Sacred Wheel
of the year, other things. Every once in a while,
(46:36):
it also has my card of the week. Every Monday,
I discuss a new Tarot card of the week. I
do that at length because I really disagree with the
idea that you can learn the Tarot through keywords and memorization.
I am passionate about that. I want people to understand
(46:59):
the row through all its complexity and its nuance, so
that you find your own truth in and you just
can't do that by giving somebody a five paragraph this
is what it means, because it means so much more
than that. So that's the main thing. And on my
(47:20):
website you'll see where you could sign up for my newsletter.
That's where I first announced my Car of the Week.
I had taken a break due to some personal things
going on from offering readings because once again, I don't
feel like it is ethical for me to offer readings
if I'm not in a good place and I'm not
(47:41):
receptive if I'm all caught up in my own little
world and my dramas. What kind of reader am I?
So I had taken a break, but I'm loads better.
I'm very grounded. So I am now offering readings and
can on a limited basis, and that too, is high
I did on my website. You can find the links
(48:02):
there to go find out more perfect.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
It's such a great website and I just want to
ps on that. When I was Deb's to Rose student,
I didn't like the little books. I didn't even I mean,
I guess I liked eating Grace. I don't want to
get both of you mad at me, but I just
I just didn't. I couldn't feel all like you said
the nuances of the card. And I would call deb
(48:28):
at ten o'clock, eleven o'clock at night. And finally, after
a couple of weeks of this, she was like, go
to Bethowl's Daughters website.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Okay, thank you.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
How long ago?
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, yeah, that's how long ago. And it was what
I needed is to pull the meat off the bone,
you know, to help me really figure out each of
those cards. So I just I really appreciate you, and
it's just such a thrill to get to see you
kind of in person over the zoom, and I just
wanted to humbly thank you for all your beautiful thank
(49:01):
you so much, so thank you so much for coming on.
We'd love to have you back on. I feel like
we just scratched the surface with you. So okay, she's nodding,
so hopefully we will have Beth back on the show.
Thank you guys for listening. I hope you have a
magical week with your own deck of Touro cards. Remember,
as always, to be the light for yourself and others.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Pack care everyone.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Thank you for listening to Psychic Teachers, your podcast for seekers,
light workers, mystics, and magical thinkers. If you like the show,
please tell a friend or leave us a review. Wherever
you listen to your podcast. For more information, check out
our Facebook page Psychic Teachers, or our websites Samantha Fay
dot com and Debbowen dot com. Thanks for listening and
(49:49):
have a great week.
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