November 1, 2024 • 41 mins
In this enlightening conversation, Sabrina Soto and Terri Cole delve into the complexities of high functioning codependency, exploring its traits, the importance of boundaries, and the impact of cultural influences. They share personal stories and insights on how to navigate relationships, empower others, and prioritize self-care. The discussion emphasizes the need for change, the challenges of letting go, and the journey towards emotional peace and balance.
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Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Sabrina Soto.
I believe the bestconversations are with friends
who are really able to openthemselves up and share their
lives, both the good parts andthe bad.
You're going to be listening tosome of those candid
conversations and hopefullygaining some insight to help you
redesign your life from theinside out out.
(00:34):
Hi, terry, hi, welcome, terry,cole, to Redesigning Life again.
Since you were on my podcast,you and I have become friends
and I read Boundary Boss, buttoo much.
I had to go run upstairs andget it because it was in my bed.
I have like little ear, you know, like I've ear dog or dog eared
it, but I feel like you shouldhave named this book, dear
Sabrina, this I honestly, terry.
(00:59):
I think this book is amazingand I think a lot of people need
it.
So, before we get started onthe book, because I have so many
questions for you, thank youfor joining us.
Sure, boundary Boss was a bookthat I think changed my life and
changed my sister's life a lot,and I feel like I've done so
(01:19):
much healing in the last coupleof years that I'm like I'm not a
high functioning codependent,but I'm going to read her book
anyway.
And it was like, yeah, girl,nice try, because every story I
feel like it's me.
And I want to first talk aboutwhy I thought I wasn't
codependent, because what's thedifference between just being a
(01:42):
nice person and beingcodependent and giving yourself
away to every single person inyour life?
Uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well, here's the thing, being a nice person
because I do get this pushbackwith people when we talk about
HFC, high-functioningcodependency.
They're like hey, terry, maybeI'm just nice.
Here's the thing If you can'tnot do it, whatever the it is,
it is not you being nice.
If you can't not do it, okay.
(02:10):
Okay, it is a compulsive action.
Okay, because if you're reallybeing nice, that is a mindful,
thoughtful you're doingsomething, but you've thought
about it.
Mindful, you're doing something, but you've thought about it.
So much of what we're talkingabout, when we're such over
givers and overdoers and we're,yes, people, and we're kind of
people pleasers in our own wayis it's just compulsive, it's
(02:33):
just a reaction and, like anyother compulsive behavior, it's
not very mindful.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So, for those of you who are just understanding, this
book is called Too Much a guideto breaking the cycle of high
functioning codependency.
And you told a story about oneof your clients I think her name
was Andrea remind, maybe I gotthe name wrong but how she was
complaining about how everysingle thing in her life she had
(03:00):
to do herself and that everyoneelse was not efficient and
everyone else was expecting herto do everything.
And I felt like you put amirror right in front of my face
because and I wait, I know I'mgoing to sound full of myself,
so bear with me because I'mself-aware enough to know this
is not going to sound right.
But I feel like sometimes in mylife, if I really don't do it,
(03:23):
it's not going to get done right.
And, by the way, when I'vetried to just let it go and let
somebody else do it, they do itwrong.
And then everybody takes theirsweet ass pimp time to do
everything, when I can get itdone in half the time.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So what does that mean?
Well, part of it is that we areextremely efficient as HFCs.
So let's establish so peoplewho don't even know what we're
talking about.
Let's establish what is highfunctioning codependency.
It is when you are overlyinvested in the feeling states,
the outcomes, the circumstances,the situation, the careers, the
finances, the friendships ofthe people in your life, to the
(03:59):
detriment of your own internalpeace.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Okay, so it's actually taking a toll on your
own life.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yes, because here's the thing as mothers and lovers
and friends, of course we carethat the people we love are
happy.
We want them to be happy,obviously.
So of course, we're invested ina normal way in their happiness
when you're an HFC away intheir happiness.
When you're an HFC, you'reoverly invested because you feel
(04:28):
responsible for other people'soutcomes, which is not the same
as caring about it, feelingresponsible Like it's on me now
to make it happen.
I need to do it, and if I'llgive you an example, let's say
your best friend calls you witha problem.
If you're wondering if you'reHFC, I'll ask you how quickly
(04:48):
does your best friend's problembecome your problem?
You have to check your urgency.
I'm not saying how quickly areyou concerned about your friend?
Of course we're concerned aboutour friend, but how urgent does
it feel that you are literallyputting down everything that
you're doing to be like allhands on deck?
(05:09):
We are getting this done.
You're already like Googlingshit.
You're already texting a friendwho knows a dermatologist.
That's when you know there is acompulsive element to what
you're doing.
It's almost like no thought.
Immediately, you're like thishas now become my problem, that
I need to fix.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Unless it's an emergency.
In an emergency situation, youshould probably drop what you're
doing if a friend needs yourhelp, but you're saying more in
a day-to-day.
My boss is on my nerves, kindof situation.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Even if your friend says I'm in a crisis, listen, if
your friend is in a crisis,your first step is not let me
fix it.
Your first step needs to bewhat are you going to do?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Oh God, what?
No?
What am I going to do to helpyou?
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
But that's not correct.
That's because you're an HFC.
When you're not an HFC, what wedo is we respect the
sovereignty of other people, werespect the wisdom of them, even
if they're fucking up.
Right?
Because here's the thing, babeEveryone has the right to
succeed and fail, to thrive andflail, flail.
We don't know what we're doing.
But when you're an HFC, wedon't want anybody flailing.
We do not like that.
We want to help.
(06:23):
We want things to be neat.
We want everything to be neat.
We want everything to bepeaceful.
We want there to be peace inthe Valley, peace in the bedroom
, peace in the backyard, peaceeverywhere.
That's what we want.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
I don't want peace in the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
All right.
Happiness and heat in thebedroom, peace everywhere else.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
But wait, okay, I'm going to push back a little bit,
because you're saying buthasn't there ever been a time in
your life Like I know thatthere has been times in life
where I was screwing up andfriends of mine came and like
slapped me upside the head andbeen like wake up, dumb ass.
And then I'm like, oh yeah,okay, I need to wake up and I
needed their objective point ofview to kind of get involved to
(07:00):
get me out of whatever mess Iwas in.
So what?
Isn't it sometimes helpful toget messy with other people?
But here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
That's not what we're talking about we're not talking
about.
Sometimes, when you're in HFC,your first stop on the train is
auto advice giving.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
You immediately have an idea, a thought, a person, a
connection, a book.
You immediately are underliningsomething for them and texting
the friend who's going to helpthem out and whatever, like the
compulsive element, is theproblem.
And the thing is, what youdon't realize when we're doing
this is that we're centeringourselves as the solution to
(07:42):
their problem.
We're not centering our friend,which is what we need to be
doing.
We're centering us.
I'm putting my cape on.
I'm going to save you now.
I'm going to tell you exactlywhat you're going to do and your
life is going to be so muchbetter.
And then we get the high ofbeing the hyper helper that we
are, and then the friend feelsindebted, or the friend or the
sister or the kid feels like aloser Because, once indebted, or
(08:03):
the friend or the sister or thekid feels like a loser because
once again, we needed to come inand save them, as opposed to.
It doesn't mean you can't tellyour friend what you think when
you're done, but when we getinto recovery from being an HFC
instead of being an auto advicegiver, you just learn to start
by asking expansive questions.
It doesn't.
You know, sabrina, what youthink your bestie should do is
(08:27):
not nearly as important as whatyour bestie thinks she should do
, even if she doesn't fuckingknow.
You need to love her enough tobe in the foxhole of the
unknowing of being like.
I love you enough to be herewith you when you are unsure of
what you should do.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Okay, yes, I see that .
Okay, let's go back to Andrea,yeah, who basically just had a
dumb bunch of dumb asses in herlife and I'm only saying her
name, andrea, because I knowyou've changed everybody's name
and some of them are characters.
So what happens if you, ifthere is a situation where you
are more efficient than everysingle other person in your life
(09:06):
?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, listen, efficiency isn't the
do-all-end-all of life.
There's nuance and life ismessy, and love is messy and
growth is messy.
So it's not all aboutefficiency.
And the thing is, my motherwould tell you, sabrina Soto, if
everything needs to be doneyour way, you'll end up like her
, doing it all and doing it allalone.
(09:29):
Oh God, okay, because nobodyhere's the thing.
When H and listen, I'm notjudging, you know, I am this.
This is why I wrote this book.
I'm in recovery, but how do Iknow it so well?
Oh, I lived it for decades.
This book, I'm in recovery, buthow do I know it so well?
Oh, I lived it for decades.
So there has to be.
You know, part of the HFC mantrais I got it, and another part
(09:53):
of the mantra is it has to be me.
Yes, like we don't trust otherpeople, we don't like we have.
So let's talk about some of thetraits of what is it to be an
HFC?
All right, so feelingresponsible to fix other
people's problems, auto advice,giving, giving until it hurts,
like going above and beyond, anda lot of times we're doing
(10:15):
things that people have notasked us to do.
Always ready to jump intodamage control mode, uh, being
kind of judgmental of othersbecause deep down, we really
feel like we are the only oneswho know how to do anything
right, getting frustrated andangry when others don't take our
grade.
A advice that we're so readilygiving.
What is wrong with you, betty,because it's good advice?
(10:35):
It is good advice, but thething is we don't know what
other people's paths are.
Yep, yep, right.
What other traits being hyperindependent?
Yep, yep, right.
Um, what other traits beinghyper independent?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So this means we don't love to ask people to help
us.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
We don't love to let people do things for us, to
allow people.
I remember when I was firstdating my husband, he would, he
would.
He lived in Jersey, I lived inManhattan and he would want to
drive into the city to pick meup, to drive me back to Jersey
to spend the night.
And I was like that's notefficient at all, it makes no
sense.
I could just go to Penn andtake a 20-minute train and you
could just like why?
And my mother was like Tara,why are you blocking him?
(11:18):
He would always say I'm goingto just hop in the car and I'll
come scoop you up.
He used to say my mother's likelet him scoop you up, Like he
wants to make your life easierto her.
Why don't you allow?
And she said you know the joythat you get from helping
everyone when you are a badreceiver.
She's like I want you topicture it as you're that Vic is
(11:40):
trying to hand you a blue boxfrom Tiffany's and when you
think of a logical reason not totake it, it's like you bashing
it on the ground and stomping onit.
Would you ever do that?
And I was like obviously not,cause that's so rude.
She's like exactly.
So how about let him dosomething for you?
It's not all, not all aboutefficiency.
And I was like wow, how did youget so smart, jannicole?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
So is it safe to say like, in our heads we're
thinking that we're being thehero, the saver of our friends,
but in essence it's really justour ego wanting to feel
important.
Listen.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I don't know about in our heads, because it is so
compulsive and it is such areaction that I never thought
consciously I can't wait to saveeveryone.
Like I was not like secretlywhipping out my cape in my mind,
I really wasn't, I didn't knowhow to do anything else.
This was my go-to thing and,yes, did it make me feel
(12:42):
important?
Of course, did it make meirreplaceable in the lives of
people?
Well, I certainly thought itdid with boyfriends, but of
course it actually didn't.
Yeah, but it's like I felt myvalue.
So much of my value needed tobe me adding value to someone
else's life.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Well, but Terry, isn't that like, like in the
book, you're like, you're enough, you're enough.
And now I'm thinking ifeveryone was just worried about
themselves and that's it, whatkind of world would we live in?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
But I love how you're so extreme and ridiculous,
because we're not talking aboutpeople, everyone just thinking
about themselves.
We're talking about notover-functioning, not inserting
yourself.
I'm talking about moremutuality in our romantic
relationships too, allowing thepeople who love us to do things
(13:37):
for us.
That is caring, right.
That allowing surrendering thatis caring.
So it doesn't mean we don't.
You're going to be the sameexact person.
You're just going to behealthier.
Sabrina, I'm the same personthat I was.
I'm an empath, I'm an highlysensitive person and I'm in
recovery from HFC, but I'm stillhave the same high antenna that
(13:58):
I always had.
I'm still dialed into everyoneout there.
You know, this is just the waythat we are.
The irony with high functioningcodependency is that the more
capable you are, the lesscodependency looks like
codependency, but it's stillcodependency.
All of this controllingbehavior that we're talking
about, because, at its core, anykind of codependency is an
(14:22):
overt or covert desire orattempt to control other
people's outcomes.
Yep, I see that.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yes, right.
And it's so much more lovingwhen your, your, your partner,
comes to you and says I'm not, Idon't know what I'm going to do
about work.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
It is so much more loving to say, okay, tell me the
situation, and then tell mewhat you think you should do.
Oh, what I say, all right.
Well, have you ever thoughtabout calling so-and-so?
Why don't you send an emailright now?
Actually, give me your laptop,I'll write it up.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah.
So what in Terry Cole's lifehappened that you decided enough
was enough?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I actually had this situation happen with my sister.
One of my sisters was in anabusive relationship.
She was actually she wasactively alcoholic.
The guy was doing crack.
They lived in a house in theshack in the woods with no
running water and no electricityand he was abusive.
So if that's, not an.
HFC nightmare where it's a fivealarm fire every day of your
(15:30):
life, being like what am I goingto do to get her out of there?
So she would call me.
She would tell me all theterrible things he was doing.
I would hang up and startbawling my eyes out, call my
therapist Like it was a wholething.
My winning formula was justlike never give up.
I'm just going to keep tryingto get her out of there till I
get her out of there, right?
Isn't that loyalty?
Isn't that love?
(15:50):
Isn't that what you do ifyou're someone's sister?
I mean, what other choice did Ihave?
Is what I thought my therapistsaid?
Because I went into her and Iwas bawling my eyes out and I
was like Bev, I've doneeverything.
I don't know what your sisterneeds to learn in this life and
(16:11):
how she needs to learn it.
Yeah, and I was like well, Ithink we can agree.
It doesn't need to be with acrackhead in the woods without
running water.
And she was like truthfully, Ican't agree because I don't know
what your sister needs to learnand how she needs to learn it.
But do you know what'shappening for you?
(16:32):
And I was like obviously not.
So help what is happening.
And she said, terry, you knowyou've worked for years in
therapy to create a reallyhealthy, harmonious life.
Because I had just gottenmarried, I had three brand, I'm
a bonus mom to three stepkids.
I just quit my job, you know,I've just started my therapy
practice.
Stopping an agent Like my lifewas very full and very busy.
And she said and your sister'sdumpster fire of a life is
(16:56):
really fucking with your peace.
I mean she probably didn't sayit exactly like that, but it's
internally.
It's creating pain for you andthe truth is you really want
your discomfort and pain to stop.
Yep, and I was like you are notlying, bev, you are not lying,
that is true, I do.
Now that changes, changes thelens a little bit, because I
(17:22):
kind of thought of myself notlike mother Teresa, but maybe a
little bit.
I was like I'm just a loving,caring, empath, like that, you
know.
And then when I had to look atit like I'm really trying to, I
see her as a problem and I'mreally trying to problem solve
so I can get back to myregularly scheduled programming
of my life.
This is disruptive to me and Ido not appreciate it.
(17:46):
So I said, well, I don't knowwhat.
What do I do instead?
And she said boundaries.
And I was like what's thatCause I was 25 or whatever it
was, and I was like I don't evenknow what a boundary is.
And she said you don't have totalk to your sister about this
guy and you can tell her thatyou'll be there if she wants to
get out.
So I did exactly that, whichwas very hard to do.
I was bawling my eyes out.
(18:07):
I felt so guilty.
She totally understood.
My sister got it and I said butI'm here.
So we talked a couple of times,but it was about nine months.
So instead of talking like oncea week, we were talking.
Not, I only spoke to herprobably three times or twice in
that whole time, and I wasworried, of course, and yet I
was busy and had my own life.
She called me and said are youstill my person?
(18:30):
And I was like getting in mycar, picked her up, she went
back to school.
She got sober.
My husband and I helped her in away that was appropriate we
could help her.
We had this little teeny lakehouse in upstate New York that
was like they call them camps.
We had to winterize it.
It was not even winterized.
(18:54):
But she got to live there forfree for two years.
We paid all the bills so thatshe could get on her feet, go
back to school, stay sober, andshe did so.
Here's the thing In the end, ifI had gotten her out of there my
way by hook or by crook,forcing her, guilting her,
whatever I had to do, I would bethe hero of her story me, her
youngest sister.
But instead, because Irespected her autonomy, she gets
(19:19):
to be the hero of her own storyand she got all the self-esteem
that went with saving herself.
And I had to tolerate the waythat that felt for me for the
months that she wasn't doing it,because it wasn't my side of
the street, because it's herlife and because, even if she's
(19:40):
doing it badly, it's her right,as I said before, to flail.
But we don't like anybodyflailing.
And yet it's not our right tostop on someone's boundaries or
to it's.
People have a right to theirautonomy, to be self determined
and self-directed, even if it'snot what you think they should
(20:01):
be doing Right.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Okay.
So then there are times thatyou need to show up for family
or friends, when they need youto show up for them, that maybe
you don't want to, and I'll justgive you a personal example.
Like, there have been timesthat I have not wanted to attend
a something or go to a dinnerparty or whatever, but it was
(20:25):
important to my friend for me tosay yes when I really want to
say no and I want to watchgolden girls in my pajamas.
That doesn't mean necessarilyI'm a high functioning
codependent.
That means that I'm justshowing up for my friendship, is
that right?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Here's the thing the I'm going to give you two
questions that you can askyourself before you do anything.
Okay, yeah, Tell me, I lovethis.
Number one can I do thiswithout becoming resentful?
Can I say yes to my friend'sdinner party without becoming
resentful?
If the answer is yes, thenyou're being a good friend.
You kiss the golden girlsgoodbye and off, you go to the
(21:01):
dinner party.
Okay, number two do I evenfucking want to do this?
Like you will have people asHFCs, we are very influenced by
what other people want.
Yes, we are high functioningpeople pleasers.
So what happens is someone elsewants us to do something.
A lot of times we don't eventhink about whether I want to do
(21:25):
it at all.
Right, we're just like I feelpressure because they want me to
do it.
So this is where all of the Ihave a whole chapter on
emotional self-regulation sothat we can slow everything down
, so that we can get our nervoussystem in a place, so we can
buy time.
We don't have to give anyone animmediate answer.
We ask ourselves do I want todo this?
(21:49):
And if the answer is aresounding no, you allow
yourself to say no.
Sometimes it might be aresounding no, but because it's
something Vic really wants to do.
My husband of 27 years, or mysister, I may say yes, but I do
it consciously, mindfully.
(22:10):
I don't do it as a knee-jerkreaction.
I don't do it as a compulsivebehavior, which is why you can
only get into recovery from thisbehavior.
There's no curing it.
It's just like drinking.
I stopped drinking when I was21.
Do I want a glass of wine oncein a while?
Sure, do I have it?
No, that's the difference.
That's being in recovery.
So it doesn't change.
(22:31):
Will you still want to giveauto advice to the people in
your life?
Probably yeah.
The difference is we just, mostof the time, slow down and
listen.
This is good, better, best,right.
If you slip back and you gavesomeone auto advice, so what
right?
It's not the end of the world.
It's the way you were doing itall the time, and now you're
just doing it less because itdeepens the intimacy in your
(22:53):
relationships.
It's what holding spaceactually means.
I don't know what anyone inthis space thinks it is, but
what holding space for someoneis means that I'll be with you
and not fix you.
I'll ask you a question andshut up so you can tell me what
you think you should do, andeven if you don't know, I'll ask
you other probing questions.
(23:13):
So maybe we can get tosomething about you, because
it's not about me.
So if you look at the autoadvice giving, being overly
self-sacrificing, autoaccommodating, right, where we
see something out in the worldand we're like, oh, do you guys
want to sit together?
I'll move, no problem.
Like you know, we're online andwe only have oh, my gosh,
that's me, of course, and theguy in front of us has, the guy
(23:36):
behind us has two things and wehave 10 and the 15 or less line
and we're like you go ahead, wecan, but that's a different.
That's a distinction toobetween regular codependence and
high functioning codependenceis that we can be codependent
with the world, I mean withstrangers.
I literally opened the bookwith a story of when I was 22.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, with that guy.
You let come home with you.
What are you crazy, I know, Ihope he was cute.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
He was not and I wasn't bringing him home to do
him.
I was bringing him home becauseI was afraid it was going to
get mugged in Penn Station.
But it's like I didn't evenknow this kid and that was you
know the story.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
That's how Dateline episodes start, terry.
It's so true, it's so true.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Good.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Lord.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Oh my God, my mother read that she was like you did
what?
Yeah, you're nuts.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
So what is in the soil that grows HFCs?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I mean, listen, let's just start with the patriarchy,
shall we?
We can, because there's a whole.
It's societally sanctioned forus to do all the things for
other people.
So there's that.
We're also raised in familiesand cultures where girls should
be nice.
You should be helpful.
You should be helpful, youshould be kind, you should be
someone who would give the shirtoff your back to anybody.
(24:53):
The more self sacrificing awoman is, the better.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
My grandmother, my mom.
I mean I'm cute, both myparents are for Cuba, my whole
family's from Cuba.
But in the Latin culture we'retold that you know, everybody
comes before us.
But even like we're sayingsocietal, like in in at least
our, the school that Olivia isin my daughter, when there's an
emergency they call me first.
They always call the mom first.
(25:17):
Yeah, so we are kind of the onewho's like you called, you
talked about in your checklist.
One of it is like are you theprimary parent?
Yeah, of course I.
Yeah, I think most moms are theprimary parent to do yes.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
And it's like the designated parent when you think
about what that?
Means it means for all you knowwhere the kid is at all times.
Yes, if you have a child andyou were at the gym and you
don't know where they are,you're probably not the
designated parent, because thedesignated parent definitely
knows where they are.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
But okay.
So let me, let's talk aboutparenting.
Is that okay?
Let's, a lot of my friends andI'm guilty of it too it's like
okay, fine.
So if we're not, let's say, I'mgoing to give a personal
example.
Olivia's birthday is coming upand I plan the birthday party
and I plan the favors, and Iplan the favors for her
classroom, and I got her outfitready, but you're like well
(26:08):
don't, well don't, with yoursexy voice.
And then I'm going to go well,if I don't, it won't get done.
And then guess, who's screwedis Olivia.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
No, but here's the thing Kids are different.
So let's especially when youare a single parenting, kids are
different.
Now you can empower Olivia ather age to do plenty of things.
She can do plenty of things.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
She's nine.
She's going to be nine thisweekend.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, yes, okay, she's going to be nine.
That's so funny.
I've known her for two yearsnow, anyway.
So you can you can not doeverything for her, because we
don't want to infantilize ourchildren.
We want them to feel what itfeels like to be able to do
things.
They let them be proud ofthemselves.
So you can give her, let hertake a stab at getting her
(26:55):
outfits together.
Okay, you can.
You know, you can start to.
It's like there's a certainpoint in kids' lives when they
can make their own lunch, whenthey can do their own laundry,
like that's, it's possible now,only age appropriate stuff
though.
So I won't, I wouldn't say forthe things with Olivia, the
things that need to get done forkids, listen, they have to get
(27:17):
done, and, if you're right, butthat's one thing a lot of
parents who are even two parenthouseholds.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
It's if it doesn't get done by one parent, the
other parents like oh, it's nobig deal, then the kid doesn't
get the party.
So how does that parent?
Who is that primary parent ornot primary?
But you know, the designatedparent let go some of the reins
when the other one doesn'treally necessarily want to pick
up the slack.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Well, part of it is that's a very, that's a
complicated situation whenyou're talking about an ex, so
there may not be a fix for that,because that person doesn't
have a lot of motivation to doit besides you asking.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
But what about the people who live with their
partner and they're stillmarried?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
There is a whole conversation that has to happen
about emotional labor.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And even if you haven't had it, this can be the
beginning.
You're allowed.
You know the boundary boss billof rights, Number three says
you have a right to makemistakes, to course, correct or
to change your mind, Right?
So if you're waking up now andsaying, holy shit, I'm doing all
the things and all the placesfor all the people and my
(28:20):
partner doesn't help and doesn'twant to help and isn't
interested, that's a problem andit might be a deal breaker of a
problem.
You have to decide quality oflife and you've trained these
people.
That's right.
Now it's your job to untrainthem.
Well, you talk about this inthe book.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Like we.
There are going to be peoplethat get upset with you when you
change your mind, but we're theone who trained them.
We're the ones who createdthese monsters, so how do it's
like it's our responsibility.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
No, it's only half.
It's only 50 you and 50 them.
So when you over-function andsomeone under-functions, that's
still their 50%.
But you're right, Our behavior,we have taught people how to
treat us, but now we must do thepainstaking work of training
them differently, of teachingthem that something is changing
(29:05):
and that you are changing andthat you expect more help.
Let's just say, for example,you're in a family situation
where you've been the one who'sdone all the holidays.
I had a client who was like thisand she started getting healthy
and was like I just I don'tknow why I felt compelled to do
it all.
It's so ridiculous.
I hate the holidays, I neverenjoy it because nobody ever
(29:26):
helps.
I do all the dishes, I do allthe cooking, I pay for
everything.
Like it's so unfair and nobodycares because I've always just
done it.
And so we came up with a planthat year and she said sent out
a notice to all the people whousually come.
That she's.
You know that it's going to bedifferent this year.
She's changing things upbecause she's trying to get back
a little bit of bandwidth forherself.
(29:47):
So she's trying to get back alittle bit of bandwidth for
herself.
So she's doing all of thegatherings?
She will.
She will do two of them, notall, only two, and it'll all be
potluck.
So let us know she's going tomake a turkey and then who's
bringing.
Let us know we need desserts,we need sides, we need bread, we
need.
And some people were like, wow,look at you and she.
(30:11):
Here's the thing when we changeand somebody notices, we can't
be like all butthurt anddefensive and thin skinned and,
like boohoo, they noticed.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah Well, did they come to the things?
I bet you nobody showed up.
Oh no, they came.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
They came and anyone who didn't or made an excuse,
she didn't care, right, she waslike it's okay, cause she still
did the turkey.
I mean, come on, it was still.
That's the hardest part.
But the point was she changedher mind and what she did is she
was teaching them that theywere going to relate to her
differently.
And then she also was likewe're also doing cleanup crew
(30:40):
for everyone ages 15 to 25.
Yeah, and they did it Cause shewas like here's the thing, you
know who?
I don't work for you,motherfuckers, I do not work for
you.
This is all voluntary, right?
And I think that, even if youfeel like you've painted
yourself in the corner, Ipromise you there's a way out.
(31:00):
This book is your way out.
One next right action at a time.
I have a whole little starterkit for you.
Go to terricolecom forward,slash HFC.
It's a little starter kit.
You can get the book athfcbookcom with all of the
bonuses.
It's also sold everywhere.
Fine books are sold.
But you guys and I also havethis amazing community where I'm
(31:23):
walking people through this.
We're doing a book club, so youcan also go to my website and
check that out if you'reinterested in that.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Because listening if you're listening to this and
you're like me that I thought Iwas doing so much better Once I
started reading the book andlistening to you cause you sent
me the audio book this morning Iit's more.
It's eyeopening.
It's really eyeopening to seehow many things that I am doing
that I didn't think were thatbad that are.
(31:51):
And you know it is exhaustingand I think that that's why we
are all sort of burnt out andexhausted in our lives is
because we're just overdoing.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yes, and here's the thing.
Let's talk quickly about what'son the other side.
Because you got to getmotivation, like what?
Why do I want to get betterfrom this affliction and this
behavior?
Well, first of all, because youdon't want to get sick.
Yeah, because this absolutelyleads to burnout, tmj,
autoimmune disorders, insomniaLike I've seen so much in 27
(32:25):
years as a therapist, where theburnout is real and the
bitterness.
If you do this for too long, youend up such a martyr.
You're so pissed at everyonebecause you just feel so taken
advantage of.
And the thing is, you can turnthis ship around.
There is so much expansion,relaxation, peace, like
(32:47):
emotional peace, like right now.
Just take a deep breath, relaxyour shoulders and imagine just
feeling this way, because youallow people to help you,
because you let the chips fallwhere they may, because you
learn what is and isn't yourresponsibility.
Right, because what we do, todo the things we've done when
(33:09):
we're high-functioningcodependents, it requires us to
self-abandon to an extremedegree, even if we look like we
have it all together.
Do you see why this is soinsidious?
Is that HFCs?
We're successful, we look good,yes, like we.
We keep it together, we workout, we make sure we get our
(33:29):
roots done.
We are going to soul cycle, weare drinking green juice, we are
.
You know what I mean.
We're doing all the things.
I mean do I know you or do Iknow you?
And that's not just seriouslybut there's so much more
(33:52):
happiness when you don't feeloverly responsible for things
that you will never, you know.
The end of the end with thesister story is that Bev said to
me my therapist, terry, listen,I'm not telling you you
shouldn't save your sister, I'msaying you can't.
That is actually animpossibility.
Even if you force your way inand rip her out of there, she's
not getting what she needs.
She didn't reach the point sheneeded to to want to make these
(34:15):
changes for herself.
It's just a bandaid You'reactually prolonging the more
money you throw at her.
The more things you do to try abandaid You're actually
prolonging the more money youthrow at her the more things you
do to try to fix it.
You're literally prolonging herpain in purgatory and hell
Because you need that terriblefeeling, that rock bottom
desperation to move.
(34:35):
Now, if my sister, if this wasabout heroin or something
different, all bets would be offI would have done an
intervention.
I mean, I'm not saying thatthere aren't moments, as you
said, where we do still step inthe point, though your entire
life will change if you juststop auto advice, giving auto
accommodating right, if you stopover functioning.
(34:58):
Those things will absolutelychange your life and your
relationship for the better, andthere's just so much more joy
when you start pouring intoyourself your dreams, what you
want to create in the life andyou need bandwidth to do it.
I'll say about the cost of HFCand I've seen it over and over
(35:19):
is that if we don't get intorecovery, there's a glass
ceiling of our own making.
That happens in our lives, whenit comes to our success, when
it comes to our relationships,because we are bleeding so much
bandwidth.
Yeah Right.
If you can't say no toprioritize, let's just say you
have an important presentationthat you're doing, but your
(35:42):
friend really wants you to cometo her standup thing that starts
at 11 the night before.
You have to say no to yourfriend, even if she's sad,
because you being at your bestfor that presentation is your
dream, right?
That's the building block ofyour dream, not?
Speaker 1 (36:00):
your friend's dream you can send your friend flowers
, right?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
That's the building block of your dream, not your
friend's dream.
You can send your friendflowers right you can.
You can be like I'm so proud tohave somebody film it.
There's a we can stay lovinglyconnected to people without
controlling them, withoutmanaging them, without feeling
like they can't handle theirfeelings.
Let me disappoint you becauseyou're going to disappoint
(36:22):
people If you're going to liveyour real life, and you have to
be okay with that, because ifnot, it's you endlessly
disappointing yourself.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
And then sister, right, okay, you.
You just to touch on somethingyou said earlier.
I thought about it is that I'vebeen scared of becoming the new
version of Sabrina that doesn'tsay yes to everything and I
will disappoint people.
And then I'm like, but I'vebeen friends with that person
for X, many years and nowthey're going to see me changing
and they're not going to wantto be in front anywhere.
(36:52):
Then let me just be that oldversion of me for them, but I'll
be the new version of me forand it's like this.
But then I realized, like youknow what, if that old person
doesn't like the new version ofme, that doesn't make them a bad
person.
That just means that theirchapter in my story is over.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Correct, and not all friendships are forever.
Sometimes friends are to teachus these lessons we need so
desperately for us to fulfillour dharma.
So my feeling is don't look atthe end of a friendship or a
relationship as a failure.
It just means your time withthat person is done and it's
(37:29):
okay.
Like I wrote a whole thingabout, you know friendships that
you know how a lot of timeswe'll stay in relationships and
by historical handcuffs, yes,yes, yes, because we have
history and we feel like we'reHFCs, are very loyal, but we can
be loyal to a fault.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
We're loyal to people who don't haven't earned it or
don't deserve it, like it's okayto outgrow a friendship.
It literally is If you havenothing in common, if you don't
want to be with them anymore, ifit's an obligation.
If you look at your phone whenit's them and you're like, oh
shit, like the last thing I wantto do is talk to this person
that's telling you something.
(38:07):
Listen to that.
Yeah, save the VIP section ofyour life for the people who
fuel you, who nourish you, whonurture you, who you can allow
to do for you as well as youdoing for them.
Not just any old person whowants to mosey in and take a
seat.
That's a lot of people got tobe in the mezzanine.
(38:28):
A lot of people got to be in themezzanine.
A lot of people shouldn't evenbe in the venue.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
I would slow clap right now if it wasn't annoying
for people listening to thepodcast.
I think it's so true.
As a matter of fact, I have afriend of mine that I was since
I was 19 years old that I'm nolonger friends with, and I saw
something about them a few weeksago and I wish them well, but
I'm so glad they're not in mylife anymore, because it's also
(38:57):
allowed for room for otherpeople.
So you're right, we are loyalto a fault.
And then, on top of that, I'm aCapricorn.
It's like I am loyal to no end,and it's sometimes the person
doesn't deserve that.
Some people don't deserve to bein the venue.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
They don't and it's to your detriment.
And the thing is the same waythat you protect Olivia, you
have to protect you, babe, Iknow, I know.
Because, if not, she's notgoing to do what you say, she's
going to do what you do.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, that's right, terry, I've said this to you
before.
But if this whole like authortherapist thing doesn't work out
, you should be as like, do like1-800-SEX numbers, because your
voice is so good, your voice isso good, I love it.
You know, you always have planB.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Plan B, I love it.
Be a sex phone worker.
Yes, please.
1-800-sex.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
No, that's not enough digits.
Yeah, that's right, terry, Icould talk to you for hours.
This is going to continue on anew venture.
I'm working on a new show.
Terry is going to be on theshow which I'm so excited about,
which I will also be announcingsoon.
So I will see you soon on that.
Thank you for your time.
Everybody who's listening getthe book much.
(40:19):
It is so good.
It is actually like mindblowing for me.
I think it's mind blowing for alot of women, if not people, in
this world who are just doing,doing, doing, and we are.
We're on this like rat race,this hamster wheel, and it's
time to get off.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yes, it is my friend.
Well, I love you.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love you you.
Hi, I'm Sabrina Soto.
I believe the bestconversations are with friends
who are really able to openthemselves up and share their
lives, both the good parts andthe bad.
You're going to be listening tosome of those candid
conversations and hopefullygaining some insight to help you
redesign your life from theinside out out.
(00:34):
Hi, terry, hi, welcome, terry,cole, to Redesigning Life again.
Since you were on my podcast,you and I have become friends
and I read Boundary Boss, buttoo much.
I had to go run upstairs andget it because it was in my bed.
I have like little ear, you know, like I've ear dog or dog eared
it, but I feel like you shouldhave named this book, dear
Sabrina, this I honestly, terry.
(00:59):
I think this book is amazingand I think a lot of people need
it.
So, before we get started onthe book, because I have so many
questions for you, thank youfor joining us.
Sure, boundary Boss was a bookthat I think changed my life and
changed my sister's life a lot,and I feel like I've done so
(01:19):
much healing in the last coupleof years that I'm like I'm not a
high functioning codependent,but I'm going to read her book
anyway.
And it was like, yeah, girl,nice try, because every story I
feel like it's me.
And I want to first talk aboutwhy I thought I wasn't
codependent, because what's thedifference between just being a
(01:42):
nice person and beingcodependent and giving yourself
away to every single person inyour life?
Uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well, here's the thing, being a nice person
because I do get this pushbackwith people when we talk about
HFC, high-functioningcodependency.
They're like hey, terry, maybeI'm just nice.
Here's the thing If you can'tnot do it, whatever the it is,
it is not you being nice.
If you can't not do it, okay.
(02:10):
Okay, it is a compulsive action.
Okay, because if you're reallybeing nice, that is a mindful,
thoughtful you're doingsomething, but you've thought
about it.
Mindful, you're doing something, but you've thought about it.
So much of what we're talkingabout, when we're such over
givers and overdoers and we're,yes, people, and we're kind of
people pleasers in our own wayis it's just compulsive, it's
(02:33):
just a reaction and, like anyother compulsive behavior, it's
not very mindful.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So, for those of you who are just understanding, this
book is called Too Much a guideto breaking the cycle of high
functioning codependency.
And you told a story about oneof your clients I think her name
was Andrea remind, maybe I gotthe name wrong but how she was
complaining about how everysingle thing in her life she had
(03:00):
to do herself and that everyoneelse was not efficient and
everyone else was expecting herto do everything.
And I felt like you put amirror right in front of my face
because and I wait, I know I'mgoing to sound full of myself,
so bear with me because I'mself-aware enough to know this
is not going to sound right.
But I feel like sometimes in mylife, if I really don't do it,
(03:23):
it's not going to get done right.
And, by the way, when I'vetried to just let it go and let
somebody else do it, they do itwrong.
And then everybody takes theirsweet ass pimp time to do
everything, when I can get itdone in half the time.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
So what does that mean?
Well, part of it is that we areextremely efficient as HFCs.
So let's establish so peoplewho don't even know what we're
talking about.
Let's establish what is highfunctioning codependency.
It is when you are overlyinvested in the feeling states,
the outcomes, the circumstances,the situation, the careers, the
finances, the friendships ofthe people in your life, to the
(03:59):
detriment of your own internalpeace.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Okay, so it's actually taking a toll on your
own life.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yes, because here's the thing as mothers and lovers
and friends, of course we carethat the people we love are
happy.
We want them to be happy,obviously.
So of course, we're invested ina normal way in their happiness
when you're an HFC away intheir happiness.
When you're an HFC, you'reoverly invested because you feel
(04:28):
responsible for other people'soutcomes, which is not the same
as caring about it, feelingresponsible Like it's on me now
to make it happen.
I need to do it, and if I'llgive you an example, let's say
your best friend calls you witha problem.
If you're wondering if you'reHFC, I'll ask you how quickly
(04:48):
does your best friend's problembecome your problem?
You have to check your urgency.
I'm not saying how quickly areyou concerned about your friend?
Of course we're concerned aboutour friend, but how urgent does
it feel that you are literallyputting down everything that
you're doing to be like allhands on deck?
(05:09):
We are getting this done.
You're already like Googlingshit.
You're already texting a friendwho knows a dermatologist.
That's when you know there is acompulsive element to what
you're doing.
It's almost like no thought.
Immediately, you're like thishas now become my problem, that
I need to fix.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Unless it's an emergency.
In an emergency situation, youshould probably drop what you're
doing if a friend needs yourhelp, but you're saying more in
a day-to-day.
My boss is on my nerves, kindof situation.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Even if your friend says I'm in a crisis, listen, if
your friend is in a crisis,your first step is not let me
fix it.
Your first step needs to bewhat are you going to do?
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Oh God, what?
No?
What am I going to do to helpyou?
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
But that's not correct.
That's because you're an HFC.
When you're not an HFC, what wedo is we respect the
sovereignty of other people, werespect the wisdom of them, even
if they're fucking up.
Right?
Because here's the thing, babeEveryone has the right to
succeed and fail, to thrive andflail, flail.
We don't know what we're doing.
But when you're an HFC, wedon't want anybody flailing.
We do not like that.
We want to help.
(06:23):
We want things to be neat.
We want everything to be neat.
We want everything to bepeaceful.
We want there to be peace inthe Valley, peace in the bedroom
, peace in the backyard, peaceeverywhere.
That's what we want.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
I don't want peace in the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
All right.
Happiness and heat in thebedroom, peace everywhere else.
There you go.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
But wait, okay, I'm going to push back a little bit,
because you're saying buthasn't there ever been a time in
your life Like I know thatthere has been times in life
where I was screwing up andfriends of mine came and like
slapped me upside the head andbeen like wake up, dumb ass.
And then I'm like, oh yeah,okay, I need to wake up and I
needed their objective point ofview to kind of get involved to
(07:00):
get me out of whatever mess Iwas in.
So what?
Isn't it sometimes helpful toget messy with other people?
But here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
That's not what we're talking about we're not talking
about.
Sometimes, when you're in HFC,your first stop on the train is
auto advice giving.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
You immediately have an idea, a thought, a person, a
connection, a book.
You immediately are underliningsomething for them and texting
the friend who's going to helpthem out and whatever, like the
compulsive element, is theproblem.
And the thing is, what youdon't realize when we're doing
this is that we're centeringourselves as the solution to
(07:42):
their problem.
We're not centering our friend,which is what we need to be
doing.
We're centering us.
I'm putting my cape on.
I'm going to save you now.
I'm going to tell you exactlywhat you're going to do and your
life is going to be so muchbetter.
And then we get the high ofbeing the hyper helper that we
are, and then the friend feelsindebted, or the friend or the
sister or the kid feels like aloser Because, once indebted, or
(08:03):
the friend or the sister or thekid feels like a loser because
once again, we needed to come inand save them, as opposed to.
It doesn't mean you can't tellyour friend what you think when
you're done, but when we getinto recovery from being an HFC
instead of being an auto advicegiver, you just learn to start
by asking expansive questions.
It doesn't.
You know, sabrina, what youthink your bestie should do is
(08:27):
not nearly as important as whatyour bestie thinks she should do
, even if she doesn't fuckingknow.
You need to love her enough tobe in the foxhole of the
unknowing of being like.
I love you enough to be herewith you when you are unsure of
what you should do.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Okay, yes, I see that .
Okay, let's go back to Andrea,yeah, who basically just had a
dumb bunch of dumb asses in herlife and I'm only saying her
name, andrea, because I knowyou've changed everybody's name
and some of them are characters.
So what happens if you, ifthere is a situation where you
are more efficient than everysingle other person in your life
(09:06):
?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, listen, efficiency isn't the
do-all-end-all of life.
There's nuance and life ismessy, and love is messy and
growth is messy.
So it's not all aboutefficiency.
And the thing is, my motherwould tell you, sabrina Soto, if
everything needs to be doneyour way, you'll end up like her
, doing it all and doing it allalone.
(09:29):
Oh God, okay, because nobodyhere's the thing.
When H and listen, I'm notjudging, you know, I am this.
This is why I wrote this book.
I'm in recovery, but how do Iknow it so well?
Oh, I lived it for decades.
This book, I'm in recovery, buthow do I know it so well?
Oh, I lived it for decades.
So there has to be.
You know, part of the HFC mantrais I got it, and another part
(09:53):
of the mantra is it has to be me.
Yes, like we don't trust otherpeople, we don't like we have.
So let's talk about some of thetraits of what is it to be an
HFC?
All right, so feelingresponsible to fix other
people's problems, auto advice,giving, giving until it hurts,
like going above and beyond, anda lot of times we're doing
(10:15):
things that people have notasked us to do.
Always ready to jump intodamage control mode, uh, being
kind of judgmental of othersbecause deep down, we really
feel like we are the only oneswho know how to do anything
right, getting frustrated andangry when others don't take our
grade.
A advice that we're so readilygiving.
What is wrong with you, betty,because it's good advice?
(10:35):
It is good advice, but thething is we don't know what
other people's paths are.
Yep, yep, right.
What other traits being hyperindependent?
Yep, yep, right.
Um, what other traits beinghyper independent?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So this means we don't love to ask people to help
us.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
We don't love to let people do things for us, to
allow people.
I remember when I was firstdating my husband, he would, he
would.
He lived in Jersey, I lived inManhattan and he would want to
drive into the city to pick meup, to drive me back to Jersey
to spend the night.
And I was like that's notefficient at all, it makes no
sense.
I could just go to Penn andtake a 20-minute train and you
could just like why?
And my mother was like Tara,why are you blocking him?
(11:18):
He would always say I'm goingto just hop in the car and I'll
come scoop you up.
He used to say my mother's likelet him scoop you up, Like he
wants to make your life easierto her.
Why don't you allow?
And she said you know the joythat you get from helping
everyone when you are a badreceiver.
She's like I want you topicture it as you're that Vic is
(11:40):
trying to hand you a blue boxfrom Tiffany's and when you
think of a logical reason not totake it, it's like you bashing
it on the ground and stomping onit.
Would you ever do that?
And I was like obviously not,cause that's so rude.
She's like exactly.
So how about let him dosomething for you?
It's not all, not all aboutefficiency.
And I was like wow, how did youget so smart, jannicole?
Speaker 1 (12:03):
So is it safe to say like, in our heads we're
thinking that we're being thehero, the saver of our friends,
but in essence it's really justour ego wanting to feel
important.
Listen.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I don't know about in our heads, because it is so
compulsive and it is such areaction that I never thought
consciously I can't wait to saveeveryone.
Like I was not like secretlywhipping out my cape in my mind,
I really wasn't, I didn't knowhow to do anything else.
This was my go-to thing and,yes, did it make me feel
(12:42):
important?
Of course, did it make meirreplaceable in the lives of
people?
Well, I certainly thought itdid with boyfriends, but of
course it actually didn't.
Yeah, but it's like I felt myvalue.
So much of my value needed tobe me adding value to someone
else's life.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Well, but Terry, isn't that like, like in the
book, you're like, you're enough, you're enough.
And now I'm thinking ifeveryone was just worried about
themselves and that's it, whatkind of world would we live in?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
But I love how you're so extreme and ridiculous,
because we're not talking aboutpeople, everyone just thinking
about themselves.
We're talking about notover-functioning, not inserting
yourself.
I'm talking about moremutuality in our romantic
relationships too, allowing thepeople who love us to do things
(13:37):
for us.
That is caring, right.
That allowing surrendering thatis caring.
So it doesn't mean we don't.
You're going to be the sameexact person.
You're just going to behealthier.
Sabrina, I'm the same personthat I was.
I'm an empath, I'm an highlysensitive person and I'm in
recovery from HFC, but I'm stillhave the same high antenna that
(13:58):
I always had.
I'm still dialed into everyoneout there.
You know, this is just the waythat we are.
The irony with high functioningcodependency is that the more
capable you are, the lesscodependency looks like
codependency, but it's stillcodependency.
All of this controllingbehavior that we're talking
about, because, at its core, anykind of codependency is an
(14:22):
overt or covert desire orattempt to control other
people's outcomes.
Yep, I see that.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yes, right.
And it's so much more lovingwhen your, your, your partner,
comes to you and says I'm not, Idon't know what I'm going to do
about work.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
It is so much more loving to say, okay, tell me the
situation, and then tell mewhat you think you should do.
Oh, what I say, all right.
Well, have you ever thoughtabout calling so-and-so?
Why don't you send an emailright now?
Actually, give me your laptop,I'll write it up.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah.
So what in Terry Cole's lifehappened that you decided enough
was enough?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I actually had this situation happen with my sister.
One of my sisters was in anabusive relationship.
She was actually she wasactively alcoholic.
The guy was doing crack.
They lived in a house in theshack in the woods with no
running water and no electricityand he was abusive.
So if that's, not an.
HFC nightmare where it's a fivealarm fire every day of your
(15:30):
life, being like what am I goingto do to get her out of there?
So she would call me.
She would tell me all theterrible things he was doing.
I would hang up and startbawling my eyes out, call my
therapist Like it was a wholething.
My winning formula was justlike never give up.
I'm just going to keep tryingto get her out of there till I
get her out of there, right?
Isn't that loyalty?
Isn't that love?
(15:50):
Isn't that what you do ifyou're someone's sister?
I mean, what other choice did Ihave?
Is what I thought my therapistsaid?
Because I went into her and Iwas bawling my eyes out and I
was like Bev, I've doneeverything.
I don't know what your sisterneeds to learn in this life and
(16:11):
how she needs to learn it.
Yeah, and I was like well, Ithink we can agree.
It doesn't need to be with acrackhead in the woods without
running water.
And she was like truthfully, Ican't agree because I don't know
what your sister needs to learnand how she needs to learn it.
But do you know what'shappening for you?
(16:32):
And I was like obviously not.
So help what is happening.
And she said, terry, you knowyou've worked for years in
therapy to create a reallyhealthy, harmonious life.
Because I had just gottenmarried, I had three brand, I'm
a bonus mom to three stepkids.
I just quit my job, you know,I've just started my therapy
practice.
Stopping an agent Like my lifewas very full and very busy.
And she said and your sister'sdumpster fire of a life is
(16:56):
really fucking with your peace.
I mean she probably didn't sayit exactly like that, but it's
internally.
It's creating pain for you andthe truth is you really want
your discomfort and pain to stop.
Yep, and I was like you are notlying, bev, you are not lying,
that is true, I do.
Now that changes, changes thelens a little bit, because I
(17:22):
kind of thought of myself notlike mother Teresa, but maybe a
little bit.
I was like I'm just a loving,caring, empath, like that, you
know.
And then when I had to look atit like I'm really trying to, I
see her as a problem and I'mreally trying to problem solve
so I can get back to myregularly scheduled programming
of my life.
This is disruptive to me and Ido not appreciate it.
(17:46):
So I said, well, I don't knowwhat.
What do I do instead?
And she said boundaries.
And I was like what's thatCause I was 25 or whatever it
was, and I was like I don't evenknow what a boundary is.
And she said you don't have totalk to your sister about this
guy and you can tell her thatyou'll be there if she wants to
get out.
So I did exactly that, whichwas very hard to do.
I was bawling my eyes out.
(18:07):
I felt so guilty.
She totally understood.
My sister got it and I said butI'm here.
So we talked a couple of times,but it was about nine months.
So instead of talking like oncea week, we were talking.
Not, I only spoke to herprobably three times or twice in
that whole time, and I wasworried, of course, and yet I
was busy and had my own life.
She called me and said are youstill my person?
(18:30):
And I was like getting in mycar, picked her up, she went
back to school.
She got sober.
My husband and I helped her in away that was appropriate we
could help her.
We had this little teeny lakehouse in upstate New York that
was like they call them camps.
We had to winterize it.
It was not even winterized.
(18:54):
But she got to live there forfree for two years.
We paid all the bills so thatshe could get on her feet, go
back to school, stay sober, andshe did so.
Here's the thing In the end, ifI had gotten her out of there my
way by hook or by crook,forcing her, guilting her,
whatever I had to do, I would bethe hero of her story me, her
youngest sister.
But instead, because Irespected her autonomy, she gets
(19:19):
to be the hero of her own storyand she got all the self-esteem
that went with saving herself.
And I had to tolerate the waythat that felt for me for the
months that she wasn't doing it,because it wasn't my side of
the street, because it's herlife and because, even if she's
(19:40):
doing it badly, it's her right,as I said before, to flail.
But we don't like anybodyflailing.
And yet it's not our right tostop on someone's boundaries or
to it's.
People have a right to theirautonomy, to be self determined
and self-directed, even if it'snot what you think they should
(20:01):
be doing Right.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Okay.
So then there are times thatyou need to show up for family
or friends, when they need youto show up for them, that maybe
you don't want to, and I'll justgive you a personal example.
Like, there have been timesthat I have not wanted to attend
a something or go to a dinnerparty or whatever, but it was
(20:25):
important to my friend for me tosay yes when I really want to
say no and I want to watchgolden girls in my pajamas.
That doesn't mean necessarilyI'm a high functioning
codependent.
That means that I'm justshowing up for my friendship, is
that right?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Here's the thing the I'm going to give you two
questions that you can askyourself before you do anything.
Okay, yeah, Tell me, I lovethis.
Number one can I do thiswithout becoming resentful?
Can I say yes to my friend'sdinner party without becoming
resentful?
If the answer is yes, thenyou're being a good friend.
You kiss the golden girlsgoodbye and off, you go to the
(21:01):
dinner party.
Okay, number two do I evenfucking want to do this?
Like you will have people asHFCs, we are very influenced by
what other people want.
Yes, we are high functioningpeople pleasers.
So what happens is someone elsewants us to do something.
A lot of times we don't eventhink about whether I want to do
(21:25):
it at all.
Right, we're just like I feelpressure because they want me to
do it.
So this is where all of the Ihave a whole chapter on
emotional self-regulation sothat we can slow everything down
, so that we can get our nervoussystem in a place, so we can
buy time.
We don't have to give anyone animmediate answer.
We ask ourselves do I want todo this?
(21:49):
And if the answer is aresounding no, you allow
yourself to say no.
Sometimes it might be aresounding no, but because it's
something Vic really wants to do.
My husband of 27 years, or mysister, I may say yes, but I do
it consciously, mindfully.
(22:10):
I don't do it as a knee-jerkreaction.
I don't do it as a compulsivebehavior, which is why you can
only get into recovery from thisbehavior.
There's no curing it.
It's just like drinking.
I stopped drinking when I was21.
Do I want a glass of wine oncein a while?
Sure, do I have it?
No, that's the difference.
That's being in recovery.
So it doesn't change.
(22:31):
Will you still want to giveauto advice to the people in
your life?
Probably yeah.
The difference is we just, mostof the time, slow down and
listen.
This is good, better, best,right.
If you slip back and you gavesomeone auto advice, so what
right?
It's not the end of the world.
It's the way you were doing itall the time, and now you're
just doing it less because itdeepens the intimacy in your
(22:53):
relationships.
It's what holding spaceactually means.
I don't know what anyone inthis space thinks it is, but
what holding space for someoneis means that I'll be with you
and not fix you.
I'll ask you a question andshut up so you can tell me what
you think you should do, andeven if you don't know, I'll ask
you other probing questions.
(23:13):
So maybe we can get tosomething about you, because
it's not about me.
So if you look at the autoadvice giving, being overly
self-sacrificing, autoaccommodating, right, where we
see something out in the worldand we're like, oh, do you guys
want to sit together?
I'll move, no problem.
Like you know, we're online andwe only have oh, my gosh,
that's me, of course, and theguy in front of us has, the guy
(23:36):
behind us has two things and wehave 10 and the 15 or less line
and we're like you go ahead, wecan, but that's a different.
That's a distinction toobetween regular codependence and
high functioning codependenceis that we can be codependent
with the world, I mean withstrangers.
I literally opened the bookwith a story of when I was 22.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, with that guy.
You let come home with you.
What are you crazy, I know, Ihope he was cute.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
He was not and I wasn't bringing him home to do
him.
I was bringing him home becauseI was afraid it was going to
get mugged in Penn Station.
But it's like I didn't evenknow this kid and that was you
know the story.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
That's how Dateline episodes start, terry.
It's so true, it's so true.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Good.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Lord.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Oh my God, my mother read that she was like you did
what?
Yeah, you're nuts.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
So what is in the soil that grows HFCs?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I mean, listen, let's just start with the patriarchy,
shall we?
We can, because there's a whole.
It's societally sanctioned forus to do all the things for
other people.
So there's that.
We're also raised in familiesand cultures where girls should
be nice.
You should be helpful.
You should be helpful, youshould be kind, you should be
someone who would give the shirtoff your back to anybody.
(24:53):
The more self sacrificing awoman is, the better.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
My grandmother, my mom.
I mean I'm cute, both myparents are for Cuba, my whole
family's from Cuba.
But in the Latin culture we'retold that you know, everybody
comes before us.
But even like we're sayingsocietal, like in in at least
our, the school that Olivia isin my daughter, when there's an
emergency they call me first.
They always call the mom first.
(25:17):
Yeah, so we are kind of the onewho's like you called, you
talked about in your checklist.
One of it is like are you theprimary parent?
Yeah, of course I.
Yeah, I think most moms are theprimary parent to do yes.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
And it's like the designated parent when you think
about what that?
Means it means for all you knowwhere the kid is at all times.
Yes, if you have a child andyou were at the gym and you
don't know where they are,you're probably not the
designated parent, because thedesignated parent definitely
knows where they are.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
But okay.
So let me, let's talk aboutparenting.
Is that okay?
Let's, a lot of my friends andI'm guilty of it too it's like
okay, fine.
So if we're not, let's say, I'mgoing to give a personal
example.
Olivia's birthday is coming upand I plan the birthday party
and I plan the favors, and Iplan the favors for her
classroom, and I got her outfitready, but you're like well
(26:08):
don't, well don't, with yoursexy voice.
And then I'm going to go well,if I don't, it won't get done.
And then guess, who's screwedis Olivia.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
No, but here's the thing Kids are different.
So let's especially when youare a single parenting, kids are
different.
Now you can empower Olivia ather age to do plenty of things.
She can do plenty of things.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
She's nine.
She's going to be nine thisweekend.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, yes, okay, she's going to be nine.
That's so funny.
I've known her for two yearsnow, anyway.
So you can you can not doeverything for her, because we
don't want to infantilize ourchildren.
We want them to feel what itfeels like to be able to do
things.
They let them be proud ofthemselves.
So you can give her, let hertake a stab at getting her
(26:55):
outfits together.
Okay, you can.
You know, you can start to.
It's like there's a certainpoint in kids' lives when they
can make their own lunch, whenthey can do their own laundry,
like that's, it's possible now,only age appropriate stuff
though.
So I won't, I wouldn't say forthe things with Olivia, the
things that need to get done forkids, listen, they have to get
(27:17):
done, and, if you're right, butthat's one thing a lot of
parents who are even two parenthouseholds.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
It's if it doesn't get done by one parent, the
other parents like oh, it's nobig deal, then the kid doesn't
get the party.
So how does that parent?
Who is that primary parent ornot primary?
But you know, the designatedparent let go some of the reins
when the other one doesn'treally necessarily want to pick
up the slack.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Well, part of it is that's a very, that's a
complicated situation whenyou're talking about an ex, so
there may not be a fix for that,because that person doesn't
have a lot of motivation to doit besides you asking.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
But what about the people who live with their
partner and they're stillmarried?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
There is a whole conversation that has to happen
about emotional labor.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And even if you haven't had it, this can be the
beginning.
You're allowed.
You know the boundary boss billof rights, Number three says
you have a right to makemistakes, to course, correct or
to change your mind, Right?
So if you're waking up now andsaying, holy shit, I'm doing all
the things and all the placesfor all the people and my
(28:20):
partner doesn't help and doesn'twant to help and isn't
interested, that's a problem andit might be a deal breaker of a
problem.
You have to decide quality oflife and you've trained these
people.
That's right.
Now it's your job to untrainthem.
Well, you talk about this inthe book.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Like we.
There are going to be peoplethat get upset with you when you
change your mind, but we're theone who trained them.
We're the ones who createdthese monsters, so how do it's
like it's our responsibility.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
No, it's only half.
It's only 50 you and 50 them.
So when you over-function andsomeone under-functions, that's
still their 50%.
But you're right, Our behavior,we have taught people how to
treat us, but now we must do thepainstaking work of training
them differently, of teachingthem that something is changing
(29:05):
and that you are changing andthat you expect more help.
Let's just say, for example,you're in a family situation
where you've been the one who'sdone all the holidays.
I had a client who was like thisand she started getting healthy
and was like I just I don'tknow why I felt compelled to do
it all.
It's so ridiculous.
I hate the holidays, I neverenjoy it because nobody ever
(29:26):
helps.
I do all the dishes, I do allthe cooking, I pay for
everything.
Like it's so unfair and nobodycares because I've always just
done it.
And so we came up with a planthat year and she said sent out
a notice to all the people whousually come.
That she's.
You know that it's going to bedifferent this year.
She's changing things upbecause she's trying to get back
a little bit of bandwidth forherself.
(29:47):
So she's trying to get back alittle bit of bandwidth for
herself.
So she's doing all of thegatherings?
She will.
She will do two of them, notall, only two, and it'll all be
potluck.
So let us know she's going tomake a turkey and then who's
bringing.
Let us know we need desserts,we need sides, we need bread, we
need.
And some people were like, wow,look at you and she.
(30:11):
Here's the thing when we changeand somebody notices, we can't
be like all butthurt anddefensive and thin skinned and,
like boohoo, they noticed.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah Well, did they come to the things?
I bet you nobody showed up.
Oh no, they came.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
They came and anyone who didn't or made an excuse,
she didn't care, right, she waslike it's okay, cause she still
did the turkey.
I mean, come on, it was still.
That's the hardest part.
But the point was she changedher mind and what she did is she
was teaching them that theywere going to relate to her
differently.
And then she also was likewe're also doing cleanup crew
(30:40):
for everyone ages 15 to 25.
Yeah, and they did it Cause shewas like here's the thing, you
know who?
I don't work for you,motherfuckers, I do not work for
you.
This is all voluntary, right?
And I think that, even if youfeel like you've painted
yourself in the corner, Ipromise you there's a way out.
(31:00):
This book is your way out.
One next right action at a time.
I have a whole little starterkit for you.
Go to terricolecom forward,slash HFC.
It's a little starter kit.
You can get the book athfcbookcom with all of the
bonuses.
It's also sold everywhere.
Fine books are sold.
But you guys and I also havethis amazing community where I'm
(31:23):
walking people through this.
We're doing a book club, so youcan also go to my website and
check that out if you'reinterested in that.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Because listening if you're listening to this and
you're like me that I thought Iwas doing so much better Once I
started reading the book andlistening to you cause you sent
me the audio book this morning Iit's more.
It's eyeopening.
It's really eyeopening to seehow many things that I am doing
that I didn't think were thatbad that are.
(31:51):
And you know it is exhaustingand I think that that's why we
are all sort of burnt out andexhausted in our lives is
because we're just overdoing.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yes, and here's the thing.
Let's talk quickly about what'son the other side.
Because you got to getmotivation, like what?
Why do I want to get betterfrom this affliction and this
behavior?
Well, first of all, because youdon't want to get sick.
Yeah, because this absolutelyleads to burnout, tmj,
autoimmune disorders, insomniaLike I've seen so much in 27
(32:25):
years as a therapist, where theburnout is real and the
bitterness.
If you do this for too long, youend up such a martyr.
You're so pissed at everyonebecause you just feel so taken
advantage of.
And the thing is, you can turnthis ship around.
There is so much expansion,relaxation, peace, like
(32:47):
emotional peace, like right now.
Just take a deep breath, relaxyour shoulders and imagine just
feeling this way, because youallow people to help you,
because you let the chips fallwhere they may, because you
learn what is and isn't yourresponsibility.
Right, because what we do, todo the things we've done when
(33:09):
we're high-functioningcodependents, it requires us to
self-abandon to an extremedegree, even if we look like we
have it all together.
Do you see why this is soinsidious?
Is that HFCs?
We're successful, we look good,yes, like we.
We keep it together, we workout, we make sure we get our
(33:29):
roots done.
We are going to soul cycle, weare drinking green juice, we are
.
You know what I mean.
We're doing all the things.
I mean do I know you or do Iknow you?
And that's not just seriouslybut there's so much more
(33:52):
happiness when you don't feeloverly responsible for things
that you will never, you know.
The end of the end with thesister story is that Bev said to
me my therapist, terry, listen,I'm not telling you you
shouldn't save your sister, I'msaying you can't.
That is actually animpossibility.
Even if you force your way inand rip her out of there, she's
not getting what she needs.
She didn't reach the point sheneeded to to want to make these
(34:15):
changes for herself.
It's just a bandaid You'reactually prolonging the more
money you throw at her.
The more things you do to try abandaid You're actually
prolonging the more money youthrow at her the more things you
do to try to fix it.
You're literally prolonging herpain in purgatory and hell
Because you need that terriblefeeling, that rock bottom
desperation to move.
(34:35):
Now, if my sister, if this wasabout heroin or something
different, all bets would be offI would have done an
intervention.
I mean, I'm not saying thatthere aren't moments, as you
said, where we do still step inthe point, though your entire
life will change if you juststop auto advice, giving auto
accommodating right, if you stopover functioning.
(34:58):
Those things will absolutelychange your life and your
relationship for the better, andthere's just so much more joy
when you start pouring intoyourself your dreams, what you
want to create in the life andyou need bandwidth to do it.
I'll say about the cost of HFCand I've seen it over and over
(35:19):
is that if we don't get intorecovery, there's a glass
ceiling of our own making.
That happens in our lives, whenit comes to our success, when
it comes to our relationships,because we are bleeding so much
bandwidth.
Yeah Right.
If you can't say no toprioritize, let's just say you
have an important presentationthat you're doing, but your
(35:42):
friend really wants you to cometo her standup thing that starts
at 11 the night before.
You have to say no to yourfriend, even if she's sad,
because you being at your bestfor that presentation is your
dream, right?
That's the building block ofyour dream, not?
Speaker 1 (36:00):
your friend's dream you can send your friend flowers
, right?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
That's the building block of your dream, not your
friend's dream.
You can send your friendflowers right you can.
You can be like I'm so proud tohave somebody film it.
There's a we can stay lovinglyconnected to people without
controlling them, withoutmanaging them, without feeling
like they can't handle theirfeelings.
Let me disappoint you becauseyou're going to disappoint
(36:22):
people If you're going to liveyour real life, and you have to
be okay with that, because ifnot, it's you endlessly
disappointing yourself.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
And then sister, right, okay, you.
You just to touch on somethingyou said earlier.
I thought about it is that I'vebeen scared of becoming the new
version of Sabrina that doesn'tsay yes to everything and I
will disappoint people.
And then I'm like, but I'vebeen friends with that person
for X, many years and nowthey're going to see me changing
and they're not going to wantto be in front anywhere.
(36:52):
Then let me just be that oldversion of me for them, but I'll
be the new version of me forand it's like this.
But then I realized, like youknow what, if that old person
doesn't like the new version ofme, that doesn't make them a bad
person.
That just means that theirchapter in my story is over.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Correct, and not all friendships are forever.
Sometimes friends are to teachus these lessons we need so
desperately for us to fulfillour dharma.
So my feeling is don't look atthe end of a friendship or a
relationship as a failure.
It just means your time withthat person is done and it's
(37:29):
okay.
Like I wrote a whole thingabout, you know friendships that
you know how a lot of timeswe'll stay in relationships and
by historical handcuffs, yes,yes, yes, because we have
history and we feel like we'reHFCs, are very loyal, but we can
be loyal to a fault.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
We're loyal to people who don't haven't earned it or
don't deserve it, like it's okayto outgrow a friendship.
It literally is If you havenothing in common, if you don't
want to be with them anymore, ifit's an obligation.
If you look at your phone whenit's them and you're like, oh
shit, like the last thing I wantto do is talk to this person
that's telling you something.
(38:07):
Listen to that.
Yeah, save the VIP section ofyour life for the people who
fuel you, who nourish you, whonurture you, who you can allow
to do for you as well as youdoing for them.
Not just any old person whowants to mosey in and take a
seat.
That's a lot of people got tobe in the mezzanine.
(38:28):
A lot of people got to be in themezzanine.
A lot of people shouldn't evenbe in the venue.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
I would slow clap right now if it wasn't annoying
for people listening to thepodcast.
I think it's so true.
As a matter of fact, I have afriend of mine that I was since
I was 19 years old that I'm nolonger friends with, and I saw
something about them a few weeksago and I wish them well, but
I'm so glad they're not in mylife anymore, because it's also
(38:57):
allowed for room for otherpeople.
So you're right, we are loyalto a fault.
And then, on top of that, I'm aCapricorn.
It's like I am loyal to no end,and it's sometimes the person
doesn't deserve that.
Some people don't deserve to bein the venue.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
They don't and it's to your detriment.
And the thing is the same waythat you protect Olivia, you
have to protect you, babe, Iknow, I know.
Because, if not, she's notgoing to do what you say, she's
going to do what you do.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, that's right, terry, I've said this to you
before.
But if this whole like authortherapist thing doesn't work out
, you should be as like, do like1-800-SEX numbers, because your
voice is so good, your voice isso good, I love it.
You know, you always have planB.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Plan B, I love it.
Be a sex phone worker.
Yes, please.
1-800-sex.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
No, that's not enough digits.
Yeah, that's right, terry, Icould talk to you for hours.
This is going to continue on anew venture.
I'm working on a new show.
Terry is going to be on theshow which I'm so excited about,
which I will also be announcingsoon.
So I will see you soon on that.
Thank you for your time.
Everybody who's listening getthe book much.
(40:19):
It is so good.
It is actually like mindblowing for me.
I think it's mind blowing for alot of women, if not people, in
this world who are just doing,doing, doing, and we are.
We're on this like rat race,this hamster wheel, and it's
time to get off.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yes, it is my friend.
Well, I love you.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love you you.
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