July 21, 2025 • 38 mins
This week, we are re-releasing one of Redesigning Life's most well-received and downloaded episodes... Holly Whitaker : Quit Like A Women
Have you ever wondered why we reach for a drink during life's highest moments and lowest lows? Why does alcohol seem essential to celebrating a wedding, mourning a loss, or simply getting through a Tuesday?
In this illuminating conversation with Holly Whitaker, author of "Quit Like a Woman", we explore the complex relationship many of us have with alcohol and how it might be affecting more than we realize. Holly shares her personal journey from someone who used alcohol, cigarettes, and food to "ruin herself and clean herself up" repeatedly to discovering a path toward genuine fulfillment without substances.
What makes this discussion particularly powerful is the science Holly brings to the table. She explains how alcohol hijacks our dopamine system, making it difficult to experience pleasure from everyday activities and creating a false association between drinking and fun. "Alcohol doesn't actually produce fun," Holly reveals. "Fun things produce fun." This insight challenges the cultural narrative that positions alcohol as the essential ingredient for enjoyment.
Beyond the science, Holly offers practical wisdom for anyone questioning their relationship with alcohol. Rather than advocating for an all-or-nothing approach, she emphasizes the power of subtle shifts in awareness and intention. By simply allowing yourself to notice alcohol's effects on your mood, sleep, and anxiety levels, you begin creating space for change.
Whether you're sober curious, actively changing your relationship with alcohol, or simply interested in understanding its effects better, this episode offers thoughtful perspectives without judgment. As Holly reminds us, when we release what no longer serves us... whether it's alcohol, toxic relationships, or limiting beliefs, we create space for something better to arrive.
What might be waiting on the other side of that glass for you? Listen in and consider what consciousness over cocktails could bring to your life.
Holly's Website: https://www.hollywhitaker.com/
Holly's Podcast: Co-Regulation
Holly's book: QUIT LIKE A WOMAN
Holly's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/holly
Connect with Sabrina:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Redesigning Life.
I'm your host, sabrina Soto,and this is the space where we
have honest conversations aboutpersonal growth, mindset shifts
and creating a life that feelstruly aligned.
In each episode, I'll talk toexperts in their fields who
share their insights to help youstep into your higher self.
Let's redesign your life fromthe inside out.
On this episode, I'm speakingwith author Holly Whitaker.
(00:26):
I found her through her blogHip Sobriety, but she also wrote
this incredible book Quit Likea Woman.
Whether you're sober, curiousor you're figuring out how
alcohol fits or maybe doesn'tfit in your life during these
really stressful times.
This is such a great episode,what a great conversation I had
with her.
So I want to get started.
(00:46):
So I've been reading your bookQuit Like a Woman and it's been
phenomenal.
I actually thought it was quiteironic that I was reading it on
my Mexican vacation and havingmargaritas and then reading this
, and funny when I would talk topeople while I was on vacation
talking about what was in thebook, which, by the way, is
(01:10):
phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Everybody, like a lot of people got triggered.
I mean no, but like fights andarguments, and, and there was no
argument.
It's really what you weretalking about, especially about
how advertising has reallyshifted smoking to the alcohol
industry.
It's not your opinion.
(01:32):
Yeah, it's fact, it's fact andpeople got annoyed.
And then, when I didn't drink,I also saw people getting
triggered Like why aren't youdrinking?
Which also I want to talk about, because what I didn't
understand is, if you go out todinner with a friend of yours
and she orders a sandwich andyou would order a salad, are you
(01:52):
upset?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
No, but think about it.
When have you ever gonevegetarian?
Like when I was vegetarian andI would go to Thanksgiving and
I'd be like I'm going to makeyou know to make vegan gravy,
everyone would be like I mean,people were not cool with it.
I was apologizing for what Iwas eating and not going in and
saying you shouldn't eat meat,but there was, on that level, a
(02:16):
lot of resistance.
Have you ever experienced?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
that yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm vegan, I'm
non-dairy pescatarian, so I eatfish once in a while, but still.
But the point is but that'sdifferent, because then it kind
of it makes it inconvenient tothem because they have to make
something else.
But in a case that we're goingto a restaurant and we're both
ordering a drink, and I happento order a sparkling water and
you order whatever the hell youdo.
(02:40):
Why does it matter what's inour cup?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Because people think about themselves.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I don't mean that like people are so selfish, I
mean we really have a hard timegetting outside of what anybody
else's behavior means for us andour own behavior.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, Let me take a few steps back of why I even got
to know you and your blog andit's amazing for anybody
listening Hip Sobriety and herbook is called Quit Like a Woman
and she also has the TempestSobriety School too.
So there was a lot to cover.
But I read, so I oh my God,this was years ago.
I was reading the New York Postand they were talking about
(03:17):
Annie Grace and I just read itand I lived in New York at the
time, which drinking is a hugepart of the culture there,
Because it's easy you walk downthe street or downstairs,
there's a bar and let's go for adrink, and I realized that my
drinking was just not gettingout of hand because I didn't
think anything of it.
But when I read her book itsort of opened my eyes.
(03:39):
So, I took steps back fromliving in that way.
And then, when COVID hit, I'mtelling you, Holly, like there
were no rules, like whatever,mimosas do it you know, like
white wine for lunch, let's doit.
And then I saw my mental health, which was already
deteriorating because of COVID,gets so much worse because of
(04:01):
the drinking.
So I started to kind of delveback into that research and I
feel like the way that you saythis information and you share
your stories is so, I don't wantto say humbling, but easy to
digest, and also you open upyour life, which I love, on your
blog.
I also read your blog abouttoxic relationships.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I wrote that when I was in a really bad relationship
.
Okay, not only did I read thatlike four times.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I sent it to friends of mine who were in toxic
relationships and I watched thatReese Witherspoon movie because
I was like I want that, I wantthat sign, I want that sign.
Wait, which one Wild you?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
talked about how she was oh my God.
Sign.
I want that sign.
Wait, which one Wild.
You talked about how she was,oh my God.
First of all, I haven't readthat blog in probably three or
four years.
But tell me about it, remind meabout it.
Why did I?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
You said that you were watching this movie and she
had written her ex-husband'sname on the sand one last time.
And then she let him go and youwere like well, how do you do
that?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
And then you were, you did that bath and you let it
go, and then you ended upmeeting somebody great.
Yes, how do things work likethat?
Are you still with him?
No, I mean, he ended up meetingme in Rome, like a year later,
I think, and then, um, gettingback to his ex-girlfriend on the
way to our trip.
So um yeah, he was still betterthan the guy before, um, but
(05:33):
yeah, I do remember that.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yes.
So thank you for that, and mygirlfriends a lot of them thank
you for that too.
So thank you for being sovulnerable, because we've all
been in those relationships thatyou can't you can't get out of.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
You can't get out of them.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
It is this same cycle , um, so I appreciate that.
But back to to your book why,like quitting, like a woman, and
I loved all of your storiesabout like how you know you and
the girls would get togetherwhen somebody like lost their
job and you're drinking whiskey,and that's what you did and I
find that that's what we're.
(06:06):
We all have been coping withCOVID and I heard that alcohol
like alcohol consumption hasbeen up by 300%.
Yeah, what, tell me, whatreally sort of catapulted you to
choose to just finally stop?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I think it was.
I mean, I write about this inmy book and there was, there was
all these tiny little pieces,and I think we at Tempest so
it's an organization that I runand we help people, you know
basically build, you know uhholistic paths to uh recovery,
which can mean abstinence or not, um, but we talk about the
recovery journey and we talkabout it in six steps and we
(06:48):
basically say there's ether, andether is essentially where you
have there's problematicdrinking going on.
This doesn't necessarily haveto qualify as alcohol use
disorder, this is justproblematic drinking, um.
And you, the ether isessentially you have, you have a
problem and you just don't knowit.
You're not in that space thatcan at all absorb that something
(07:11):
is wrong.
And then you move from thereinto inkling, and that's just
where you get a little hit ofsomething.
And that's like you reading apost article with Annie Grace
and going, huh, you know, and Ithink it's just we have we go
through a process of awarenessthat allows us to start to see,
and I think it's just we have wego through a process of
awareness that allows us tostart to see things.
And I'm not just talking aboutalcohol, I'm talking about
anything.
We move typically from the darkinto the light and that process
(07:33):
is really slow.
And so for me, there was aperiod of time where I was just
crawling through my life and Icould not actually identify that
alcohol was a problem.
It was that my life was aproblem and it was, and my my
relationship with alcohol wouldchange when my life changed.
(07:54):
And then I think there was abunch of different things that
occurred over a period of 2010and 2011.
And finally, in 2012, where Ijust started to get these hits
Like I went to a three daymeditation retreat at Esalen.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I lived in San Francisco, so this was a few
hours away, and Esalen is thisvortex.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, it's a beautiful place in Big Sur that
is kind of like a hippie commune.
I don't know it's a beautifulplace in Big Sur that is kind of
like a hippie commune, I don'tknow.
It's a healing place, I don'tknow how else to say it.
There's yurts and healers and Iwent there and I had three days
and in that I was able to seehow sick my depression was, how
unhappy I was, and then I wasgoing to change my life forever.
(08:43):
And I drove back to SanFrancisco and by Monday I was
just right back to where I wasand I think I kept on having
these moments where I would seesomething and I'd be like, oh
right, there's another way, Idon't have to live this way.
But for me, the real, there wastwo things that were real final
moments.
One was just how many.
(09:04):
I woke up one morning and I haduh, I had been, I would binge
drink a lot and so I would go, Icould.
There were times I could quote,unquote, take it or leave it,
but uh, you know, I, I could, Icould.
Uh, alcohol was not.
I wasn't drinking like you seein the movies when you see
alcoholism portrayed.
(09:24):
I wasn't carrying aroundbottles in my bag, I wasn't
hiding bottles in my car, Iwasn't waking up every morning
and drinking, but when I wasdrinking it was really, really
problematic.
And I had this one moment whereI woke up in the morning and I
woke up with alcohol in my hand.
And I woke up, um, it wasbefore work, I had to lead a
(09:45):
meeting in a short period oftime and I just was.
I also was bulimic and I also,um, I may smoke cigarettes and I
smoked pot.
And a lot of times those fourthings would converge alcohol,
pot, uh, food, uh, and then, uh,tobacco, and I would just ruin
myself.
And then I cleaned myself upand I ruined myself and I
cleaned myself up.
(10:05):
So I had this one moment whereI was just so, I was, I was
maybe 32 at the time and I wasjust exhausted by it.
And then I had this othermoment where, once you know,
that morning I actually justreally cried for help, I
actually named it and said Ican't go on living like this.
And again, this wasn't like Ican't go on living with my
(10:31):
alcoholism, it was just I can'tkeep this up, I'm exhausted by
myself and the life that I builtfor myself.
And then, uh, I started.
That allowed me to startlooking a little deeper and
questioning my relationship withalcohol and maybe putting a
name to it Like this has tochange.
And then I started to change myrelationship with alcohol.
I started reading a book verysimilar to Annie Grace's book.
Annie Grace's book is calledthis Naked Mind.
Some of her theories come froma book by Alan Carr, who is made
(10:54):
famous for his ability to helppeople quit smoking with
psychology and what he wouldcall exposing liminal thinking
and exposing the subconsciousthings that drive the decisions
we make.
So I read this book by AlanCarr, which was called the Easy
Way to Control your Alcohol,because, again, I wasn't
(11:14):
interested in cutting outalcohol, I was interested in
controlling it.
But that book started to do anumber on me and I had this
night out with one of my friendsin San Francisco where I really
didn't want to drink and I want.
I was watching the whole sceneunfold.
I was watching her buy thesecond drink, I was watching her
pick up men that I didn't wantto talk to, and then I watched
(11:35):
her get progressively I likesloppy drunk and I wasn't in.
I wasn't in on it, I wasn'thaving fun with it.
And then her behavior wasreally um, it was just gross.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
And then she got in the taxi and there was this huge
fight and she, we were runninglike chasing her down the street
.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Well, she just, I mean, it was just one of those
moments where I was, you know,as I write this, I I'm trying to
like get her, I'm trying tolike for her safety, get her
into a cab.
I'm handing the cab driver mycredit card and saying I'll pay
if she pukes, Because back then,um, it was really hard to get,
uh, taxis in San Francisco, andI'm like managing this whole
(12:16):
process and she is, you know,she hates me for it and I just
felt too old for it.
I just didn't want that lifeanymore.
I felt ridiculous and I feltexhausted by it, and so there
was a collection of things, butthose were two real poignant
moments that shaped thatdecision.
I don't want this.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
You were a little bit younger.
So what about for the housemoms who are homeschooling their
kids right now, overwhelmedbecause maybe they're not
working, their partner's notworking and they don't have
those crazy nights to sort ofhave that one moment of
awakening?
What can you say to thosepeople to make them stop and
(12:59):
think whether or not alcohol isplaying a role in their life
that isn't helping which, by theway, alcohol is never going to
be helping anybody's life butthat maybe is really more
unhealthy than they think it is?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, I think that everybody, no matter what
situation that you're in, youget to have an epiphany and I
think you get to have thatawareness and it doesn't have to
come crashing down like insomething as cliche as a bar
scene.
It really, I mean, more thanoften, the way that drinking
shows up is in the mundane or isin the the trope of our life,
(13:33):
and that's why it's so hard topeel our life away from it.
Because if you are in your homeall day and let's just say
you're, you're, you're thisperson, you're raising kids, um,
you're, you know, maybe you'rejuggling a job and juggling you
know, your family and all that'sgoing on in the world right now
, and it's normalized to drinkduring the day.
(13:55):
You can't see a way out of it.
You cannot see how you're goingto unwind at night without wine
or how you're going to make itto five without that relief,
because that's what alcohol does, it's.
It's no matter really how muchwe're drinking If we aren't on
the spectrum of alcohol usedisorder all the way up to
having severe alcohol usedisorder.
It's really habit forming and Ithink it's really hard for
people to really see when maybeit shows up in their life on a
(14:19):
regular basis, how they're goingto get out of it or even see
how they're going to havehappiness without it.
Because a lot of times we tieup so much of our reward or our
release or our relaxation orconnection, or our sex or our
partner connection time, so muchof the, the more um, what we,
(14:42):
you know quote unquote rewardingparts of our lives are tied up
with alcohol.
So you really can't see a wayout and I think the thing that I
always say to everybody is thatyou just allow yourself to.
I mean, it's amazing what wecan, what we can do subtly.
We think we have to make thesereally huge shifts and like
throw out all the bottles andthen, you know, start meditating
(15:04):
every night and doing a wholenumber of things and become this
different person.
But the truth is we just allowfor our, we allow for things to,
to, to come in and we allow forourselves to make subtle
changes.
And I really like this bookcalled Atomic Habits.
Have you ever read?
Speaker 1 (15:19):
that, no, I've never read it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's by James Clear and he essentially talks about
how, how, all you know, I thinkall of these little things that
we do really add up to make bigchange.
Wow, I don't like this, or wow,maybe this isn't helping me, or
maybe this is increasing myanxiety, or maybe this is
(15:50):
increasing my depression, or I'mtired of this, or anything that
you allow to enter the pictureof the narrative, to break it up
, you're basically allowingyourself to develop a new thread
of thinking, you're allowingyourself to move into a
different direction and in thatspace, that's where we start to
essentially change our direction, change our habit.
And so these things, these, youknow I didn't quit drinking
(16:12):
overnight.
It was a buildup over years anda change and a shift that came
over years.
And so, while maybe some of themore pointed or extreme things
that I did to eliminate alcoholfrom my life might've happened
in a condensed period of timelet's say over six months really
there was I can look back overthe course of my life and I can
see how, um things that I didled me to drink more and how
(16:36):
things that I did helped meinevitably decide that I don't
want this in my life anymore.
And all that being said, itdoesn't make it any.
It's a big change when you doremove it, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, because of what you just said everything
wedding drinking, uh, raisedrinking, birthday drinking,
holidays drinking it's likeeverything's drinking date night
drinking, first date drinking,you know anniversary drinking
everything's about drinkingEverything and it's so tied up
in almost every emotion we use.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
We can use alcohol and I love there's this book
called um never enough, butJudith grizzle, and she talks
about addiction, but shespecifically talks about alcohol
and she says in it I've alwaysfound it um extremely curious
that we that we um use it apresent to uh celebrate peak
experiences, right, and so it'sjust, it's a very odd thing and
(17:31):
we've thrown alcohol and we'vetied it into almost every single
thing that we do, which isproblematic.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, yeah, and, and more so that people don't
understand.
I had a friend of mine not toolong ago who drank.
We all went out and we hadrented this house out and we you
know, everybody was drinking inthe next morning.
Um, they came into my room andthey're like I'm having a panic
attack.
I think I'm having a heartattack.
I don't know what I'm.
(17:59):
What's happening.
I'm like it's called a hangover.
Like you literally drank poisonlast night and you feel what do
you?
What did you expect that youwere going to feel like this?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
morning.
I know I used to have panicattacks from hangovers.
I am like did you ever?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
They call it anxiety.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, it's awful.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
And then you really think it has nothing to do with
alcohol.
No, it's just a coincidencethat I feel this way, but last
night I drank a bottle of wine.
No, it's not a coincidence,it's.
You're literally drinking apoison, a depressant.
Of course you're going to feeldepressed, but that's what I
don't understand about alcohol,is that?
How do you?
Why don't you just feeldepressed immediately?
I feel like less, less peoplewould drink it.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
If you drink a shot, well, you do feel depressed
pretty quickly, and so alcoholis a depressant and this is also
why I love Judith Grissel'swork.
So she talks about an ABprocess and so anything that we
do, essentially whatever we putinto our body, our body is
constantly trying to seek stasis, seek stasis, so it's always
going to counter it.
So if you take coffee I drink aton of coffee I am always tired
(19:05):
, I crash hard after I have ashot of espresso, and that's
because my body is counteractingall of the adrenaline and all
of the caffeine, um, all theuppers that come from drinking a
cup of coffee.
And so when you drink alcohol,which is actually a depressant,
um, your body may feel like um,immediately it's, it's
(19:28):
essentially, like you know,getting this relaxation response
from it.
But we go down pretty quicklyand so our body first,
essentially, is fighting it byshooting us with um, adrenaline
and cortisol.
But then you know prettyquickly after we are um, you
know we're, we're basicallycoming down off of that, and
then we drink more alcohol andour bodies basically, over time,
(19:50):
the more alcohol that we drink,the slower we're going, the
more turned off we get and ourbody's doing all sorts, it's
flooding us basically withanxiety because we're drinking a
depressant, and so you get twoeffects.
You get one, the effects fromactually consuming what is a
depressant, but then you're alsodealing with what the body's
(20:10):
doing to counteract thedepressant in your system.
And then you know, as if that'snot enough, then your body also
is getting an enormous amountof sugar, and so your body's
correcting for that, which iswhy the next day, when we're
going through a hangover, wehave that empty, shaky feeling
because our blood sugar iscompletely off.
This is why drinking in thenext day is typically something
(20:32):
that can soothe it.
So it's basically one of themost fundamentally damaging
things we can put into our body.
And we, you know you're gettingI've heard people talk about it
like as a Swiss army knife,because I know, you know, I
would get like okay if I drink.
That's my reward.
(20:53):
I'm going to push through.
You know, work at night, butalso it's what I'm using to help
me fall asleep, and that'sbecause there's a really
complicated process our bodygoes through when we put a
substance like that in it.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
When, yes, and you actually get worse sleep if
you've been drinking than if youdidn't have a drop of alcohol.
But somebody said something tome recently when I was talking
about your book, and they saidwell, what about all those
people in Italy?
They drink every day and theylive to be like 100 and
something.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
It's like what do you say to people like?
Speaker 1 (21:24):
that.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Well, I've spent a lot of time in Italy and the
people in Italy do not drinklike us.
Typical Italians do not getdrunk.
I mean, there's a lot ofWestern, like American influence
that where there is more bingedrinking, but for the most part
you don't have more than a glassof wine.
It's not the same thing.
It's not, we're not hit overthe head.
America has a very differentpast with alcohol, based on
(21:50):
prohibition and then just basedon.
You know, life in America isquite different than life in
Italy.
Meaning Italians live withtheir families longer, they're
more indexed on family, there'smore community, there's more
focus on leisure time.
There's just a very differentculture.
So they're not as stressed outas we are, um, they're not as
(22:11):
disconnected and lonely as weare, and they also use alcohol,
um, far more ceremonially, uh,than than we do, and so, um,
they're living to they.
They do have high lifeexpectancies.
Italy, I think, has.
The last time I checked, Ithink they were like the second
in the world.
But that's for other, fromother factors.
(22:32):
It's not because you drink alittle bit of alcohol.
I can't remember, I'm sure it'ssome European country.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Sweden.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
We're down the list.
Yeah, it's not us.
Nope, not us.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, that you also wrote on your blog which I loved
when you were in Italy and itcould have been with your ex
that it was like you weresitting across from them and you
were having such a great timetogether and he was like so
seriously like what do you dofor fun?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And I'm sure you get that a lot yeah.
Well, I don't anymore.
I mean, I guess it's alsopartly because I am quarantined
by myself and nobody asks meanything anymore.
But yeah, I got that a lot whenI first quit drinking and I
think people because again we, Iwas drinking it was just so
(23:28):
interesting because everythingwe did was so focused on the
drinking that we had to, mygirlfriends and I had to think
of ways that were not focused onalcohol in order to have fun,
and this led us to doing thingslike going to a shooting range.
We were like, well, you canshoot.
I guess you don't need to drinkto shoot guns.
Well, you probably shouldn't,you definitely shouldn't, but we
(23:50):
did go and drink afterward, andso we just can't imagine it,
because everything we do,alcohol is basically pulled into
it.
So alcohol, you know, makesweddings more fun.
It makes first dates tolerable.
You know, you can.
I used to sneak alcohol intomovie theaters before movie
theaters started serving alcohol, and there's, you know, yoga is
(24:12):
paired with alcohol.
Now there's all these differentways that alcohol is introduced
as, like, the fun maker, and sowe think that the only thing
that we do that actuallyproduces fun is alcohol.
But the truth is, alcohol isoften just paired with peak
moments, and so what I had to dowhen I first quit drinking was
really shift my mindset andalmost think of this, like how
is this going to be an adventure?
Oh my God, I'm going to go out,I'm going to stay out with my
(24:32):
friends all night long and I'mgoing to try and dance in public
and not be hammered doing it,and that, like there was just
all of these firsts for me.
And so what I found from my youknow, my experiment with it,
right Was that was that I wasdrinking to make things that
weren't fun more fun.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And that I just stopped doing that.
So I just stopped going toweddings, and I stopped because
I hate weddings.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
And I stopped going to big parties.
No, you can't just not go toweddings, you can't just say no
yeah you can what I can't not goto my cousin's wedding.
You can't just say, no, yeah,you can what.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I can't knock on my cousin's door, you can say no to
everything.
Well, okay, like you, probablythere's probably some weddings
you have to go to, still, Idon't know.
But I mean, we do get to makethe rules that we live by, you
know.
And so I think I decided Ireally do not like big parties.
I'm very, very socially anxious.
I do not like big groups ofpeople are like intimacy, and so
(25:30):
I stopped doing things that Ifound taxing and that I used to
only do because I would be ableto drink through them, and then
for the things that I absolutelyloved.
I mean, the thing with alcoholis, especially if you're
drinking it in a habitual waylet's just say that you have,
you get your hit from twoglasses of wine at night, and so
what ends up happening is thatyour reward system starts really
indexing on that glass ofalcohol, meaning that your body
(25:52):
is releasing dopamine inanticipation of the drinking,
and what ends up happening is,because alcohol and other drugs
produce a larger release ofdopamine, your body starts to
basically downgrade your abilityto receive the effect that
dopamine gives to you.
It's our motivation.
So what ends up happening is,over time, if we're continuously
(26:15):
drinking, our reward systemgets hijacked, and so we need
higher doses of dopamine toactually feel motivation to do
anything, which means that, uh,the pleasure that we receive
from things that don't producehigh dopamine hits uh ends up
(26:36):
being less important to us, andso it ends up happening when you
remove alcohol.
Is that you don't need thatlarge?
Um, you're, you're basicallyyour, your, your reward system.
Excuse me, I just swallowed abug One second.
Um, there's these little fliesin my house anyway.
Um, are you okay?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, I eat like four bags a day.
Oh, that's protein.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
It's disgusting.
Um, I have a lot of houseplantsand I don't know if something's
going on with them.
Anyway, maybe one of yourlisteners can tell me what to do
with my house flies, yeah,please.
But anyway so your dopaminesystem corrects itself, which
means that you start to getpleasure from the things that
are meant to induce pleasure,and so I can get hyped about
(27:23):
going and looking at a sunset, Ican get hyped about going into
a church, and then the otherpiece of this, too, is that
dopamine is a here and now,meaning that we are or, I'm
sorry, not a here and now, butlike it basically indexes us on
like a future reward.
Um, what ends up happening whenwe're not, like, caught in that
dopamine cycle is that we'reable to actually experience the
(27:44):
present moment a lot more, andso we just end up enjoying
things.
So what I've found in the longanswer to your question is that
alcohol doesn't actually producefun.
Fun things produce fun, andwhen you remove alcohol, what
you end up doing is getting realpleasure out of the experiences
that you're having.
Your body normalizes and youstart to experience wonder and
(28:06):
awe and things that we aredesigned to experience.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So let's say, like a listeners, just listening to
this podcast and starting tothink, oh, maybe I should take a
break.
How long do you think it takesyou to find the bliss that you
find now in the normal everydaytasks?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
So I'm going to be really careful with this.
I think, like I, my life isn'tjust always happy.
I just actually feel myfeelings and I actually
experience life as it is, and Ithink that that in a in of
itself is a reward.
So I don't want to be.
There's a lot of misconception.
I think there's.
When I first started talkingabout sobriety, everyone it had
a really bad rap and there were,you know, there were straight
(28:48):
edge folks.
There weren't a lot of, thereweren't a ton of people that
were just like sobriety is areally great thing, and it was
really seen as a consequence ofsomebody that drank too much and
lost their drinking privilegeor flawed humans.
And so I was really adamantabout presenting this picture of
, like, the beautiful parts ofsobriety, and I think in that
(29:08):
what we've done um, not just me,but a lot of people that talk
about it just end up reallyblowing up this like miracle
picture of like how great lifeis, and so I think, like, life
is still life.
Um, but for me, I put a lot ofintent, I, it really is our
frame of mind and our beliefsystem counts for so much.
If we go into somethingthinking this is going to be
miserable, I'm going to fail atit or anything.
That's a really negative smallpicture.
That's what we end up reaping.
(29:30):
I went into it like excited umfor what I was going to
experience without it in my life, and I also was always really
adamant that, um, I want, like Iwanted this experience.
I wanted to be free.
I had given so much of my lifeto, to all the things I was
(29:51):
supposed to do, and it reallygot me nowhere and I really I
really took advantage of thisnew like lens of life, and so
for me, it was also just like Idon't know, waking up for the
first time and seeing the realworld.
And so I have had a much hardertime in the later years.
I've been sober for um.
I started, uh, in October 2012.
(30:13):
So eight years ago, I startedto try and quit drinking and I
stopped for good in early 2013.
So I'm seven and a half yearssober and I have found it is
that all of that intention Ibrought into that early sobriety
was, is still, is now somethingthat I have to call upon and be
really like.
I really have to do the work ofum, of being here for my life
(30:37):
and being here to experiencethat.
So typically people are gonna.
I think it depends on the beliefsystem that you bring into it,
it's the willingness that youbring into it.
I think there's a lot of stuffthat people generate, but
anhedonia, which is the statethat I was talking about, it's a
real thing, and so I thinkyou're going to find, like, if
you talk, if you pull like ahundred people, you know who are
(30:57):
going through this reallymindfully.
Now, remember, this is not youknow I, I am, you know, going
through medical detox, I amgoing through rehab, I lost my
you know.
Like alcohol, we have toremember it's.
I mean, it's, it's the thirdleading cause of preventable
death in the United States,because 3.3 million people a
year worldwide.
Um, people often struggle withit.
You know, it's not like opioids, where there's a pretty fast
(31:20):
downward spiral.
Alcohol can be something thatpeople manage and, you know,
kill themselves with over aperiod of, you know, decades,
and so it's a really, reallyharmful substance.
And so I always want to likekeep that in mind too, in that,
like it's not just this, likethere's not just a diet trend or
a gluten trend, like it'sthere's a real serious amount of
(31:41):
recovery that comes into playfor some of us, depending on
where we start off and whatwe're bringing with us.
But I think, when you're talkingabout what like the average
person can expect to feel whenyou're removing a depressant um,
and like you're trying toregain like a, a sense of awe
and wonder for life, that it one.
It really does depend on whatyou're using, what kind of
(32:02):
mental state that you're in,belief system that you are
working with and and with, andthe intention you're putting
around, what your process is.
And that's why, at Tempest andalso in my book, it is really
meant to be an empowering methodversus a now you go over here
sad method.
You don't get to drink, youhave to be in recovery for the
rest of your life.
But I also think that it'ssomething that is.
(32:22):
I think I've never met somebodythat has been through a process
of recovery that hasn't felt asense of awe and wonder that I
have known on my path.
It's where, I think, I'vewitnessed some of the most pain
and it's also where I'vewitnessed some of the most
profound joy, and it is it ishands down where I have
(32:44):
witnessed people experience themost profound joy and awe in
their lives.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
And two of my favorite authors, gabby
Bernstein, which I know you love, and Brene Brown, are both.
They're sober and they speakfreely about how it's changed
their life.
I know I'm going to wrap it up,because I could talk to you for
hours.
By the way, what are your dailypractices going to?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
wrap it up, because I could talk to you for hours.
By the way.
What are your daily practices?
So I am a meditator and I'vebeen.
I also display this.
I use Kundalini Yoga.
I've also written recently justabout the founder of Kundalini
Yoga, Nogi Bhajan, and so I usethat, knowing full well what
some of the atrocities that haveoccurred within that community
(33:30):
Um, and but that still is mymain practice, and so, um, I
typically am working on a 40 daymeditation.
Right now I'm doing somethingcalled the Sodarshan Kriya,
which is a breath, uh meditation, Um, so that's a daily practice
.
I am very, very big on um, uh,especially in these times, um,
(33:51):
in positive thinking and also inin like writing the bigger
story, and so that that can comefrom a number of different
sources.
I, um, I might read PemaChodron.
Um, I may read Ram Dass.
Um, currently I've been readinga lot of Wayne Dyer, Louise Hay
, and I just recently read theSecret.
Well, they're really good, Imean.
(34:15):
I always read that and I'm justlike I always am thinking, like
sometimes the super positivethinking stuff like Wayne Dyer
or like Louise Hay, or like the.
I'm reading the Secret rightnow and I just as embarrassing
as it is I just read watchedthis movie with Katie Holmes
about the Secret.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Oh, my God, I watched it too it was so good.
It was so good.
So, holly, I don't know if youknow that the Secret completely
changed my life.
It's the only reason I'm backon television.
13 years ago I watched it andthe next day I found my HGTV job
, so I've been a huge.
Yeah, it's crazy the story, butMike Dooley, who was on the
Secret, has been on the podcasttoo, and he became a friend of
(34:53):
mine.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
I am such a huge Hay House, like all of everybody
who's either a Burla fan- I know, I know they're just look, I
find it to be I forget howpowerful what we intend and what
we, the energy we bring tothings, what we intend for
ourselves.
I and I think I've really, inthe last few years especially
(35:14):
because around 2016, I startedto get really grossed out about
the spiritual community's apathy, um, for black lives, for, uh,
sexual assault, for the me toomovement, I for the election and
the political climate, and Ithink I also I ended up moving
more into this ballpark of likemaking sure, first and before
anything else, I wasacknowledging the reality and
(35:37):
also not spiritually bypassing,and what ended up happening is
that I forgot how powerful it isto believe in bigger things and
to believe in things we can'tsee.
And it was actually one of myfriends who I was talking to
recently, who is so steeped inthe reality of um, of, of, of
social justice, and and, um, andand work, uh, she works on
(36:00):
something called recovery forthe, or they work on something
called recovery for therevolution, and they were the
ones that actually reminded methat they're um to the, the
power of believing in magic andbeautiful and big things, and so
I really do have a strongpractice of and I always have,
but even more so recently ofwriting my intentions, writing
my gratitudes and believing inthings that are bigger than I
(36:22):
can even begin to imagine.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
But I also have to thank you, for you're the one
who introduced me to ToshaSilver because of your blog, and
I also need to remind you howpowerful your words are, because
what you were just saying, likewe forget how powerful
intention is.
But you wrote that blog yearsago about that toxic
relationship.
Yes, yes, I did thefrankincense Epsom salt.
(36:46):
I had like more Epsom salt thanwater in that bath and I and I
did it like a few days and Iswear when I finally let go,
like work started comingopportunities started coming and
, and it's weird, because howdoes the how does that happen?
Like, how does the universe knowwhen you finally let go of
something that no longer servesyou?
And it could be alcohol, itcould be smoking, it could be
(37:08):
drugs, it could be a person, itcould be over shopping, it could
be overworking, it could besocial media, whatever it is for
you, when you finally let go ofsomething that is no longer
serving you, you would besurprised how quickly the
universe will work in your favor.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
So, thank you, so thank you, vin.
Tosha Silver's work wasOutrageous Openness.
It was like my Bible of 2014and 15.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
And I need to go back and read it again have you read
, it's Not your Money.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
No, I read Change Me Prayers, but I haven't.
That must be one of her newbooks.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
It's her new books and it talks about money, but it
really has so much more to dothan money.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
So I highly highly recommend it.
I'm going to get that, yeah.
I mean, her work is so profoundand it does.
It indexes on that same thing,and that's like you can actually
by letting go of the past andletting go of, like, I mean,
everything is energy right, andso we move things out of the way
and let go of things, it allowsall this good stuff that wants
to show up for us in.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Amazing Holly.
Thank all this good stuff thatwants to show up for us in
amazing sound.
Holly, thank you so much foranybody listening.
Don't worry, on my notes I'mgonna have holly's instagram,
the quit like a woman book, alink to get it and about all
about the tempest sobrietyschool so you can have any way
to get a hold of her and if youhave any tips on how to get rid
of houseplant flies.
Welcome to Redesigning Life.
I'm your host, sabrina Soto,and this is the space where we
have honest conversations aboutpersonal growth, mindset shifts
and creating a life that feelstruly aligned.
In each episode, I'll talk toexperts in their fields who
share their insights to help youstep into your higher self.
Let's redesign your life fromthe inside out.
On this episode, I'm speakingwith author Holly Whitaker.
(00:26):
I found her through her blogHip Sobriety, but she also wrote
this incredible book Quit Likea Woman.
Whether you're sober, curiousor you're figuring out how
alcohol fits or maybe doesn'tfit in your life during these
really stressful times.
This is such a great episode,what a great conversation I had
with her.
So I want to get started.
(00:46):
So I've been reading your bookQuit Like a Woman and it's been
phenomenal.
I actually thought it was quiteironic that I was reading it on
my Mexican vacation and havingmargaritas and then reading this
, and funny when I would talk topeople while I was on vacation
talking about what was in thebook, which, by the way, is
(01:10):
phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Everybody, like a lot of people got triggered.
I mean no, but like fights andarguments, and, and there was no
argument.
It's really what you weretalking about, especially about
how advertising has reallyshifted smoking to the alcohol
industry.
It's not your opinion.
(01:32):
Yeah, it's fact, it's fact andpeople got annoyed.
And then, when I didn't drink,I also saw people getting
triggered Like why aren't youdrinking?
Which also I want to talk about, because what I didn't
understand is, if you go out todinner with a friend of yours
and she orders a sandwich andyou would order a salad, are you
(01:52):
upset?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
No, but think about it.
When have you ever gonevegetarian?
Like when I was vegetarian andI would go to Thanksgiving and
I'd be like I'm going to makeyou know to make vegan gravy,
everyone would be like I mean,people were not cool with it.
I was apologizing for what Iwas eating and not going in and
saying you shouldn't eat meat,but there was, on that level, a
(02:16):
lot of resistance.
Have you ever experienced?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
that yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I'm vegan, I'm
non-dairy pescatarian, so I eatfish once in a while, but still.
But the point is but that'sdifferent, because then it kind
of it makes it inconvenient tothem because they have to make
something else.
But in a case that we're goingto a restaurant and we're both
ordering a drink, and I happento order a sparkling water and
you order whatever the hell youdo.
(02:40):
Why does it matter what's inour cup?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Because people think about themselves.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I don't mean that like people are so selfish, I
mean we really have a hard timegetting outside of what anybody
else's behavior means for us andour own behavior.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, Let me take a few steps back of why I even got
to know you and your blog andit's amazing for anybody
listening Hip Sobriety and herbook is called Quit Like a Woman
and she also has the TempestSobriety School too.
So there was a lot to cover.
But I read, so I oh my God,this was years ago.
I was reading the New York Postand they were talking about
(03:17):
Annie Grace and I just read itand I lived in New York at the
time, which drinking is a hugepart of the culture there,
Because it's easy you walk downthe street or downstairs,
there's a bar and let's go for adrink, and I realized that my
drinking was just not gettingout of hand because I didn't
think anything of it.
But when I read her book itsort of opened my eyes.
(03:39):
So, I took steps back fromliving in that way.
And then, when COVID hit, I'mtelling you, Holly, like there
were no rules, like whatever,mimosas do it you know, like
white wine for lunch, let's doit.
And then I saw my mental health, which was already
deteriorating because of COVID,gets so much worse because of
(04:01):
the drinking.
So I started to kind of delveback into that research and I
feel like the way that you saythis information and you share
your stories is so, I don't wantto say humbling, but easy to
digest, and also you open upyour life, which I love, on your
blog.
I also read your blog abouttoxic relationships.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I wrote that when I was in a really bad relationship
.
Okay, not only did I read thatlike four times.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I sent it to friends of mine who were in toxic
relationships and I watched thatReese Witherspoon movie because
I was like I want that, I wantthat sign, I want that sign.
Wait, which one Wild you?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
talked about how she was oh my God.
Sign.
I want that sign.
Wait, which one Wild.
You talked about how she was,oh my God.
First of all, I haven't readthat blog in probably three or
four years.
But tell me about it, remind meabout it.
Why did I?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
You said that you were watching this movie and she
had written her ex-husband'sname on the sand one last time.
And then she let him go and youwere like well, how do you do
that?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
And then you were, you did that bath and you let it
go, and then you ended upmeeting somebody great.
Yes, how do things work likethat?
Are you still with him?
No, I mean, he ended up meetingme in Rome, like a year later,
I think, and then, um, gettingback to his ex-girlfriend on the
way to our trip.
So um yeah, he was still betterthan the guy before, um, but
(05:33):
yeah, I do remember that.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yes.
So thank you for that, and mygirlfriends a lot of them thank
you for that too.
So thank you for being sovulnerable, because we've all
been in those relationships thatyou can't you can't get out of.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
You can't get out of them.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
It is this same cycle , um, so I appreciate that.
But back to to your book why,like quitting, like a woman, and
I loved all of your storiesabout like how you know you and
the girls would get togetherwhen somebody like lost their
job and you're drinking whiskey,and that's what you did and I
find that that's what we're.
(06:06):
We all have been coping withCOVID and I heard that alcohol
like alcohol consumption hasbeen up by 300%.
Yeah, what, tell me, whatreally sort of catapulted you to
choose to just finally stop?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I think it was.
I mean, I write about this inmy book and there was, there was
all these tiny little pieces,and I think we at Tempest so
it's an organization that I runand we help people, you know
basically build, you know uhholistic paths to uh recovery,
which can mean abstinence or not, um, but we talk about the
recovery journey and we talkabout it in six steps and we
(06:48):
basically say there's ether, andether is essentially where you
have there's problematicdrinking going on.
This doesn't necessarily haveto qualify as alcohol use
disorder, this is justproblematic drinking, um.
And you, the ether isessentially you have, you have a
problem and you just don't knowit.
You're not in that space thatcan at all absorb that something
(07:11):
is wrong.
And then you move from thereinto inkling, and that's just
where you get a little hit ofsomething.
And that's like you reading apost article with Annie Grace
and going, huh, you know, and Ithink it's just we have we go
through a process of awarenessthat allows us to start to see,
and I think it's just we have wego through a process of
awareness that allows us tostart to see things.
And I'm not just talking aboutalcohol, I'm talking about
anything.
We move typically from the darkinto the light and that process
(07:33):
is really slow.
And so for me, there was aperiod of time where I was just
crawling through my life and Icould not actually identify that
alcohol was a problem.
It was that my life was aproblem and it was, and my my
relationship with alcohol wouldchange when my life changed.
(07:54):
And then I think there was abunch of different things that
occurred over a period of 2010and 2011.
And finally, in 2012, where Ijust started to get these hits
Like I went to a three daymeditation retreat at Esalen.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I lived in San Francisco, so this was a few
hours away, and Esalen is thisvortex.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, it's a beautiful place in Big Sur that
is kind of like a hippie commune.
I don't know it's a beautifulplace in Big Sur that is kind of
like a hippie commune, I don'tknow.
It's a healing place, I don'tknow how else to say it.
There's yurts and healers and Iwent there and I had three days
and in that I was able to seehow sick my depression was, how
unhappy I was, and then I wasgoing to change my life forever.
(08:43):
And I drove back to SanFrancisco and by Monday I was
just right back to where I wasand I think I kept on having
these moments where I would seesomething and I'd be like, oh
right, there's another way, Idon't have to live this way.
But for me, the real, there wastwo things that were real final
moments.
One was just how many.
(09:04):
I woke up one morning and I haduh, I had been, I would binge
drink a lot and so I would go, Icould.
There were times I could quote,unquote, take it or leave it,
but uh, you know, I, I could, Icould.
Uh, alcohol was not.
I wasn't drinking like you seein the movies when you see
alcoholism portrayed.
(09:24):
I wasn't carrying aroundbottles in my bag, I wasn't
hiding bottles in my car, Iwasn't waking up every morning
and drinking, but when I wasdrinking it was really, really
problematic.
And I had this one moment whereI woke up in the morning and I
woke up with alcohol in my hand.
And I woke up, um, it wasbefore work, I had to lead a
(09:45):
meeting in a short period oftime and I just was.
I also was bulimic and I also,um, I may smoke cigarettes and I
smoked pot.
And a lot of times those fourthings would converge alcohol,
pot, uh, food, uh, and then, uh,tobacco, and I would just ruin
myself.
And then I cleaned myself upand I ruined myself and I
cleaned myself up.
(10:05):
So I had this one moment whereI was just so, I was, I was
maybe 32 at the time and I wasjust exhausted by it.
And then I had this othermoment where, once you know,
that morning I actually justreally cried for help, I
actually named it and said Ican't go on living like this.
And again, this wasn't like Ican't go on living with my
(10:31):
alcoholism, it was just I can'tkeep this up, I'm exhausted by
myself and the life that I builtfor myself.
And then, uh, I started.
That allowed me to startlooking a little deeper and
questioning my relationship withalcohol and maybe putting a
name to it Like this has tochange.
And then I started to change myrelationship with alcohol.
I started reading a book verysimilar to Annie Grace's book.
Annie Grace's book is calledthis Naked Mind.
Some of her theories come froma book by Alan Carr, who is made
(10:54):
famous for his ability to helppeople quit smoking with
psychology and what he wouldcall exposing liminal thinking
and exposing the subconsciousthings that drive the decisions
we make.
So I read this book by AlanCarr, which was called the Easy
Way to Control your Alcohol,because, again, I wasn't
(11:14):
interested in cutting outalcohol, I was interested in
controlling it.
But that book started to do anumber on me and I had this
night out with one of my friendsin San Francisco where I really
didn't want to drink and I want.
I was watching the whole sceneunfold.
I was watching her buy thesecond drink, I was watching her
pick up men that I didn't wantto talk to, and then I watched
(11:35):
her get progressively I likesloppy drunk and I wasn't in.
I wasn't in on it, I wasn'thaving fun with it.
And then her behavior wasreally um, it was just gross.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
And then she got in the taxi and there was this huge
fight and she, we were runninglike chasing her down the street
.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Well, she just, I mean, it was just one of those
moments where I was, you know,as I write this, I I'm trying to
like get her, I'm trying tolike for her safety, get her
into a cab.
I'm handing the cab driver mycredit card and saying I'll pay
if she pukes, Because back then,um, it was really hard to get,
uh, taxis in San Francisco, andI'm like managing this whole
(12:16):
process and she is, you know,she hates me for it and I just
felt too old for it.
I just didn't want that lifeanymore.
I felt ridiculous and I feltexhausted by it, and so there
was a collection of things, butthose were two real poignant
moments that shaped thatdecision.
I don't want this.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
You were a little bit younger.
So what about for the housemoms who are homeschooling their
kids right now, overwhelmedbecause maybe they're not
working, their partner's notworking and they don't have
those crazy nights to sort ofhave that one moment of
awakening?
What can you say to thosepeople to make them stop and
(12:59):
think whether or not alcohol isplaying a role in their life
that isn't helping which, by theway, alcohol is never going to
be helping anybody's life butthat maybe is really more
unhealthy than they think it is?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, I think that everybody, no matter what
situation that you're in, youget to have an epiphany and I
think you get to have thatawareness and it doesn't have to
come crashing down like insomething as cliche as a bar
scene.
It really, I mean, more thanoften, the way that drinking
shows up is in the mundane or isin the the trope of our life,
(13:33):
and that's why it's so hard topeel our life away from it.
Because if you are in your homeall day and let's just say
you're, you're, you're thisperson, you're raising kids, um,
you're, you know, maybe you'rejuggling a job and juggling you
know, your family and all that'sgoing on in the world right now
, and it's normalized to drinkduring the day.
(13:55):
You can't see a way out of it.
You cannot see how you're goingto unwind at night without wine
or how you're going to make itto five without that relief,
because that's what alcohol does, it's.
It's no matter really how muchwe're drinking If we aren't on
the spectrum of alcohol usedisorder all the way up to
having severe alcohol usedisorder.
It's really habit forming and Ithink it's really hard for
people to really see when maybeit shows up in their life on a
(14:19):
regular basis, how they're goingto get out of it or even see
how they're going to havehappiness without it.
Because a lot of times we tieup so much of our reward or our
release or our relaxation orconnection, or our sex or our
partner connection time, so muchof the, the more um, what we,
(14:42):
you know quote unquote rewardingparts of our lives are tied up
with alcohol.
So you really can't see a wayout and I think the thing that I
always say to everybody is thatyou just allow yourself to.
I mean, it's amazing what wecan, what we can do subtly.
We think we have to make thesereally huge shifts and like
throw out all the bottles andthen, you know, start meditating
(15:04):
every night and doing a wholenumber of things and become this
different person.
But the truth is we just allowfor our, we allow for things to,
to, to come in and we allow forourselves to make subtle
changes.
And I really like this bookcalled Atomic Habits.
Have you ever read?
Speaker 1 (15:19):
that, no, I've never read it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's by James Clear and he essentially talks about
how, how, all you know, I thinkall of these little things that
we do really add up to make bigchange.
Wow, I don't like this, or wow,maybe this isn't helping me, or
maybe this is increasing myanxiety, or maybe this is
(15:50):
increasing my depression, or I'mtired of this, or anything that
you allow to enter the pictureof the narrative, to break it up
, you're basically allowingyourself to develop a new thread
of thinking, you're allowingyourself to move into a
different direction and in thatspace, that's where we start to
essentially change our direction, change our habit.
And so these things, these, youknow I didn't quit drinking
(16:12):
overnight.
It was a buildup over years anda change and a shift that came
over years.
And so, while maybe some of themore pointed or extreme things
that I did to eliminate alcoholfrom my life might've happened
in a condensed period of timelet's say over six months really
there was I can look back overthe course of my life and I can
see how, um things that I didled me to drink more and how
(16:36):
things that I did helped meinevitably decide that I don't
want this in my life anymore.
And all that being said, itdoesn't make it any.
It's a big change when you doremove it, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, because of what you just said everything
wedding drinking, uh, raisedrinking, birthday drinking,
holidays drinking it's likeeverything's drinking date night
drinking, first date drinking,you know anniversary drinking
everything's about drinkingEverything and it's so tied up
in almost every emotion we use.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
We can use alcohol and I love there's this book
called um never enough, butJudith grizzle, and she talks
about addiction, but shespecifically talks about alcohol
and she says in it I've alwaysfound it um extremely curious
that we that we um use it apresent to uh celebrate peak
experiences, right, and so it'sjust, it's a very odd thing and
(17:31):
we've thrown alcohol and we'vetied it into almost every single
thing that we do, which isproblematic.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, yeah, and, and more so that people don't
understand.
I had a friend of mine not toolong ago who drank.
We all went out and we hadrented this house out and we you
know, everybody was drinking inthe next morning.
Um, they came into my room andthey're like I'm having a panic
attack.
I think I'm having a heartattack.
I don't know what I'm.
(17:59):
What's happening.
I'm like it's called a hangover.
Like you literally drank poisonlast night and you feel what do
you?
What did you expect that youwere going to feel like this?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
morning.
I know I used to have panicattacks from hangovers.
I am like did you ever?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
They call it anxiety.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Yeah, it's awful.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
And then you really think it has nothing to do with
alcohol.
No, it's just a coincidencethat I feel this way, but last
night I drank a bottle of wine.
No, it's not a coincidence,it's.
You're literally drinking apoison, a depressant.
Of course you're going to feeldepressed, but that's what I
don't understand about alcohol,is that?
How do you?
Why don't you just feeldepressed immediately?
I feel like less, less peoplewould drink it.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
If you drink a shot, well, you do feel depressed
pretty quickly, and so alcoholis a depressant and this is also
why I love Judith Grissel'swork.
So she talks about an ABprocess and so anything that we
do, essentially whatever we putinto our body, our body is
constantly trying to seek stasis, seek stasis, so it's always
going to counter it.
So if you take coffee I drink aton of coffee I am always tired
(19:05):
, I crash hard after I have ashot of espresso, and that's
because my body is counteractingall of the adrenaline and all
of the caffeine, um, all theuppers that come from drinking a
cup of coffee.
And so when you drink alcohol,which is actually a depressant,
um, your body may feel like um,immediately it's, it's
(19:28):
essentially, like you know,getting this relaxation response
from it.
But we go down pretty quicklyand so our body first,
essentially, is fighting it byshooting us with um, adrenaline
and cortisol.
But then you know prettyquickly after we are um, you
know we're, we're basicallycoming down off of that, and
then we drink more alcohol andour bodies basically, over time,
(19:50):
the more alcohol that we drink,the slower we're going, the
more turned off we get and ourbody's doing all sorts, it's
flooding us basically withanxiety because we're drinking a
depressant, and so you get twoeffects.
You get one, the effects fromactually consuming what is a
depressant, but then you're alsodealing with what the body's
(20:10):
doing to counteract thedepressant in your system.
And then you know, as if that'snot enough, then your body also
is getting an enormous amountof sugar, and so your body's
correcting for that, which iswhy the next day, when we're
going through a hangover, wehave that empty, shaky feeling
because our blood sugar iscompletely off.
This is why drinking in thenext day is typically something
(20:32):
that can soothe it.
So it's basically one of themost fundamentally damaging
things we can put into our body.
And we, you know you're gettingI've heard people talk about it
like as a Swiss army knife,because I know, you know, I
would get like okay if I drink.
That's my reward.
(20:53):
I'm going to push through.
You know, work at night, butalso it's what I'm using to help
me fall asleep, and that'sbecause there's a really
complicated process our bodygoes through when we put a
substance like that in it.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
When, yes, and you actually get worse sleep if
you've been drinking than if youdidn't have a drop of alcohol.
But somebody said something tome recently when I was talking
about your book, and they saidwell, what about all those
people in Italy?
They drink every day and theylive to be like 100 and
something.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
It's like what do you say to people like?
Speaker 1 (21:24):
that.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Well, I've spent a lot of time in Italy and the
people in Italy do not drinklike us.
Typical Italians do not getdrunk.
I mean, there's a lot ofWestern, like American influence
that where there is more bingedrinking, but for the most part
you don't have more than a glassof wine.
It's not the same thing.
It's not, we're not hit overthe head.
America has a very differentpast with alcohol, based on
(21:50):
prohibition and then just basedon.
You know, life in America isquite different than life in
Italy.
Meaning Italians live withtheir families longer, they're
more indexed on family, there'smore community, there's more
focus on leisure time.
There's just a very differentculture.
So they're not as stressed outas we are, um, they're not as
(22:11):
disconnected and lonely as weare, and they also use alcohol,
um, far more ceremonially, uh,than than we do, and so, um,
they're living to they.
They do have high lifeexpectancies.
Italy, I think, has.
The last time I checked, Ithink they were like the second
in the world.
But that's for other, fromother factors.
(22:32):
It's not because you drink alittle bit of alcohol.
I can't remember, I'm sure it'ssome European country.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Sweden.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
We're down the list.
Yeah, it's not us.
Nope, not us.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, that you also wrote on your blog which I loved
when you were in Italy and itcould have been with your ex
that it was like you weresitting across from them and you
were having such a great timetogether and he was like so
seriously like what do you dofor fun?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And I'm sure you get that a lot yeah.
Well, I don't anymore.
I mean, I guess it's alsopartly because I am quarantined
by myself and nobody asks meanything anymore.
But yeah, I got that a lot whenI first quit drinking and I
think people because again we, Iwas drinking it was just so
(23:28):
interesting because everythingwe did was so focused on the
drinking that we had to, mygirlfriends and I had to think
of ways that were not focused onalcohol in order to have fun,
and this led us to doing thingslike going to a shooting range.
We were like, well, you canshoot.
I guess you don't need to drinkto shoot guns.
Well, you probably shouldn't,you definitely shouldn't, but we
(23:50):
did go and drink afterward, andso we just can't imagine it,
because everything we do,alcohol is basically pulled into
it.
So alcohol, you know, makesweddings more fun.
It makes first dates tolerable.
You know, you can.
I used to sneak alcohol intomovie theaters before movie
theaters started serving alcohol, and there's, you know, yoga is
(24:12):
paired with alcohol.
Now there's all these differentways that alcohol is introduced
as, like, the fun maker, and sowe think that the only thing
that we do that actuallyproduces fun is alcohol.
But the truth is, alcohol isoften just paired with peak
moments, and so what I had to dowhen I first quit drinking was
really shift my mindset andalmost think of this, like how
is this going to be an adventure?
Oh my God, I'm going to go out,I'm going to stay out with my
(24:32):
friends all night long and I'mgoing to try and dance in public
and not be hammered doing it,and that, like there was just
all of these firsts for me.
And so what I found from my youknow, my experiment with it,
right Was that was that I wasdrinking to make things that
weren't fun more fun.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And that I just stopped doing that.
So I just stopped going toweddings, and I stopped because
I hate weddings.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
And I stopped going to big parties.
No, you can't just not go toweddings, you can't just say no
yeah you can what I can't not goto my cousin's wedding.
You can't just say, no, yeah,you can what.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I can't knock on my cousin's door, you can say no to
everything.
Well, okay, like you, probablythere's probably some weddings
you have to go to, still, Idon't know.
But I mean, we do get to makethe rules that we live by, you
know.
And so I think I decided Ireally do not like big parties.
I'm very, very socially anxious.
I do not like big groups ofpeople are like intimacy, and so
(25:30):
I stopped doing things that Ifound taxing and that I used to
only do because I would be ableto drink through them, and then
for the things that I absolutelyloved.
I mean, the thing with alcoholis, especially if you're
drinking it in a habitual waylet's just say that you have,
you get your hit from twoglasses of wine at night, and so
what ends up happening is thatyour reward system starts really
indexing on that glass ofalcohol, meaning that your body
(25:52):
is releasing dopamine inanticipation of the drinking,
and what ends up happening is,because alcohol and other drugs
produce a larger release ofdopamine, your body starts to
basically downgrade your abilityto receive the effect that
dopamine gives to you.
It's our motivation.
So what ends up happening is,over time, if we're continuously
(26:15):
drinking, our reward systemgets hijacked, and so we need
higher doses of dopamine toactually feel motivation to do
anything, which means that, uh,the pleasure that we receive
from things that don't producehigh dopamine hits uh ends up
(26:36):
being less important to us, andso it ends up happening when you
remove alcohol.
Is that you don't need thatlarge?
Um, you're, you're basicallyyour, your, your reward system.
Excuse me, I just swallowed abug One second.
Um, there's these little fliesin my house anyway.
Um, are you okay?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, I eat like four bags a day.
Oh, that's protein.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
It's disgusting.
Um, I have a lot of houseplantsand I don't know if something's
going on with them.
Anyway, maybe one of yourlisteners can tell me what to do
with my house flies, yeah,please.
But anyway so your dopaminesystem corrects itself, which
means that you start to getpleasure from the things that
are meant to induce pleasure,and so I can get hyped about
(27:23):
going and looking at a sunset, Ican get hyped about going into
a church, and then the otherpiece of this, too, is that
dopamine is a here and now,meaning that we are or, I'm
sorry, not a here and now, butlike it basically indexes us on
like a future reward.
Um, what ends up happening whenwe're not, like, caught in that
dopamine cycle is that we'reable to actually experience the
(27:44):
present moment a lot more, andso we just end up enjoying
things.
So what I've found in the longanswer to your question is that
alcohol doesn't actually producefun.
Fun things produce fun, andwhen you remove alcohol, what
you end up doing is getting realpleasure out of the experiences
that you're having.
Your body normalizes and youstart to experience wonder and
(28:06):
awe and things that we aredesigned to experience.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So let's say, like a listeners, just listening to
this podcast and starting tothink, oh, maybe I should take a
break.
How long do you think it takesyou to find the bliss that you
find now in the normal everydaytasks?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
So I'm going to be really careful with this.
I think, like I, my life isn'tjust always happy.
I just actually feel myfeelings and I actually
experience life as it is, and Ithink that that in a in of
itself is a reward.
So I don't want to be.
There's a lot of misconception.
I think there's.
When I first started talkingabout sobriety, everyone it had
a really bad rap and there were,you know, there were straight
(28:48):
edge folks.
There weren't a lot of, thereweren't a ton of people that
were just like sobriety is areally great thing, and it was
really seen as a consequence ofsomebody that drank too much and
lost their drinking privilegeor flawed humans.
And so I was really adamantabout presenting this picture of
, like, the beautiful parts ofsobriety, and I think in that
(29:08):
what we've done um, not just me,but a lot of people that talk
about it just end up reallyblowing up this like miracle
picture of like how great lifeis, and so I think, like, life
is still life.
Um, but for me, I put a lot ofintent, I, it really is our
frame of mind and our beliefsystem counts for so much.
If we go into somethingthinking this is going to be
miserable, I'm going to fail atit or anything.
That's a really negative smallpicture.
That's what we end up reaping.
(29:30):
I went into it like excited umfor what I was going to
experience without it in my life, and I also was always really
adamant that, um, I want, like Iwanted this experience.
I wanted to be free.
I had given so much of my lifeto, to all the things I was
(29:51):
supposed to do, and it reallygot me nowhere and I really I
really took advantage of thisnew like lens of life, and so
for me, it was also just like Idon't know, waking up for the
first time and seeing the realworld.
And so I have had a much hardertime in the later years.
I've been sober for um.
I started, uh, in October 2012.
(30:13):
So eight years ago, I startedto try and quit drinking and I
stopped for good in early 2013.
So I'm seven and a half yearssober and I have found it is
that all of that intention Ibrought into that early sobriety
was, is still, is now somethingthat I have to call upon and be
really like.
I really have to do the work ofum, of being here for my life
(30:37):
and being here to experiencethat.
So typically people are gonna.
I think it depends on the beliefsystem that you bring into it,
it's the willingness that youbring into it.
I think there's a lot of stuffthat people generate, but
anhedonia, which is the statethat I was talking about, it's a
real thing, and so I thinkyou're going to find, like, if
you talk, if you pull like ahundred people, you know who are
(30:57):
going through this reallymindfully.
Now, remember, this is not youknow I, I am, you know, going
through medical detox, I amgoing through rehab, I lost my
you know.
Like alcohol, we have toremember it's.
I mean, it's, it's the thirdleading cause of preventable
death in the United States,because 3.3 million people a
year worldwide.
Um, people often struggle withit.
You know, it's not like opioids, where there's a pretty fast
(31:20):
downward spiral.
Alcohol can be something thatpeople manage and, you know,
kill themselves with over aperiod of, you know, decades,
and so it's a really, reallyharmful substance.
And so I always want to likekeep that in mind too, in that,
like it's not just this, likethere's not just a diet trend or
a gluten trend, like it'sthere's a real serious amount of
(31:41):
recovery that comes into playfor some of us, depending on
where we start off and whatwe're bringing with us.
But I think, when you're talkingabout what like the average
person can expect to feel whenyou're removing a depressant um,
and like you're trying toregain like a, a sense of awe
and wonder for life, that it one.
It really does depend on whatyou're using, what kind of
(32:02):
mental state that you're in,belief system that you are
working with and and with, andthe intention you're putting
around, what your process is.
And that's why, at Tempest andalso in my book, it is really
meant to be an empowering methodversus a now you go over here
sad method.
You don't get to drink, youhave to be in recovery for the
rest of your life.
But I also think that it'ssomething that is.
(32:22):
I think I've never met somebodythat has been through a process
of recovery that hasn't felt asense of awe and wonder that I
have known on my path.
It's where, I think, I'vewitnessed some of the most pain
and it's also where I'vewitnessed some of the most
profound joy, and it is it ishands down where I have
(32:44):
witnessed people experience themost profound joy and awe in
their lives.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
And two of my favorite authors, gabby
Bernstein, which I know you love, and Brene Brown, are both.
They're sober and they speakfreely about how it's changed
their life.
I know I'm going to wrap it up,because I could talk to you for
hours.
By the way, what are your dailypractices going to?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
wrap it up, because I could talk to you for hours.
By the way.
What are your daily practices?
So I am a meditator and I'vebeen.
I also display this.
I use Kundalini Yoga.
I've also written recently justabout the founder of Kundalini
Yoga, Nogi Bhajan, and so I usethat, knowing full well what
some of the atrocities that haveoccurred within that community
(33:30):
Um, and but that still is mymain practice, and so, um, I
typically am working on a 40 daymeditation.
Right now I'm doing somethingcalled the Sodarshan Kriya,
which is a breath, uh meditation, Um, so that's a daily practice
.
I am very, very big on um, uh,especially in these times, um,
(33:51):
in positive thinking and also inin like writing the bigger
story, and so that that can comefrom a number of different
sources.
I, um, I might read PemaChodron.
Um, I may read Ram Dass.
Um, currently I've been readinga lot of Wayne Dyer, Louise Hay
, and I just recently read theSecret.
Well, they're really good, Imean.
(34:15):
I always read that and I'm justlike I always am thinking, like
sometimes the super positivethinking stuff like Wayne Dyer
or like Louise Hay, or like the.
I'm reading the Secret rightnow and I just as embarrassing
as it is I just read watchedthis movie with Katie Holmes
about the Secret.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Oh, my God, I watched it too it was so good.
It was so good.
So, holly, I don't know if youknow that the Secret completely
changed my life.
It's the only reason I'm backon television.
13 years ago I watched it andthe next day I found my HGTV job
, so I've been a huge.
Yeah, it's crazy the story, butMike Dooley, who was on the
Secret, has been on the podcasttoo, and he became a friend of
(34:53):
mine.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
I am such a huge Hay House, like all of everybody
who's either a Burla fan- I know, I know they're just look, I
find it to be I forget howpowerful what we intend and what
we, the energy we bring tothings, what we intend for
ourselves.
I and I think I've really, inthe last few years especially
(35:14):
because around 2016, I startedto get really grossed out about
the spiritual community's apathy, um, for black lives, for, uh,
sexual assault, for the me toomovement, I for the election and
the political climate, and Ithink I also I ended up moving
more into this ballpark of likemaking sure, first and before
anything else, I wasacknowledging the reality and
(35:37):
also not spiritually bypassing,and what ended up happening is
that I forgot how powerful it isto believe in bigger things and
to believe in things we can'tsee.
And it was actually one of myfriends who I was talking to
recently, who is so steeped inthe reality of um, of, of, of
social justice, and and, um, andand work, uh, she works on
(36:00):
something called recovery forthe, or they work on something
called recovery for therevolution, and they were the
ones that actually reminded methat they're um to the, the
power of believing in magic andbeautiful and big things, and so
I really do have a strongpractice of and I always have,
but even more so recently ofwriting my intentions, writing
my gratitudes and believing inthings that are bigger than I
(36:22):
can even begin to imagine.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
But I also have to thank you, for you're the one
who introduced me to ToshaSilver because of your blog, and
I also need to remind you howpowerful your words are, because
what you were just saying, likewe forget how powerful
intention is.
But you wrote that blog yearsago about that toxic
relationship.
Yes, yes, I did thefrankincense Epsom salt.
(36:46):
I had like more Epsom salt thanwater in that bath and I and I
did it like a few days and Iswear when I finally let go,
like work started comingopportunities started coming and
, and it's weird, because howdoes the how does that happen?
Like, how does the universe knowwhen you finally let go of
something that no longer servesyou?
And it could be alcohol, itcould be smoking, it could be
(37:08):
drugs, it could be a person, itcould be over shopping, it could
be overworking, it could besocial media, whatever it is for
you, when you finally let go ofsomething that is no longer
serving you, you would besurprised how quickly the
universe will work in your favor.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
So, thank you, so thank you, vin.
Tosha Silver's work wasOutrageous Openness.
It was like my Bible of 2014and 15.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
And I need to go back and read it again have you read
, it's Not your Money.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
No, I read Change Me Prayers, but I haven't.
That must be one of her newbooks.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
It's her new books and it talks about money, but it
really has so much more to dothan money.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
So I highly highly recommend it.
I'm going to get that, yeah.
I mean, her work is so profoundand it does.
It indexes on that same thing,and that's like you can actually
by letting go of the past andletting go of, like, I mean,
everything is energy right, andso we move things out of the way
and let go of things, it allowsall this good stuff that wants
to show up for us in.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Amazing Holly.
Thank all this good stuff thatwants to show up for us in
amazing sound.
Holly, thank you so much foranybody listening.
Don't worry, on my notes I'mgonna have holly's instagram,
the quit like a woman book, alink to get it and about all
about the tempest sobrietyschool so you can have any way
to get a hold of her and if youhave any tips on how to get rid
of houseplant flies.
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