October 18, 2024 • 42 mins
In this heartfelt conversation, Sabrina Soto and grief expert David Kessler explore the complexities of grief and loss, sharing personal experiences and insights. They discuss the nuances of grieving for pets versus people, the societal discomfort surrounding grief, and the importance of allowing oneself to feel and express grief without comparison. Kessler emphasizes that grief is a deeply personal journey that is not linear, and that all forms of grief are valid and deserving of acknowledgment. In this conversation, David Kessler and Sabrina Soto explore the complexities of grief, love, and the search for meaning after loss. They discuss the non-linear nature of grief, the unique challenges of pet loss, and the feelings of shame that often accompany mourning. Kessler emphasizes the importance of finding meaning in the aftermath of loss and how to honor loved ones through personal growth. The conversation also touches on the need for safe spaces to express grief and the significance of authenticity in the healing process.
Website: https://grief.com
Latest Book: Finding Meaning: Grief Workbook (released on 10/1) -- https://a.co/d/g01qjhR
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamdavidkessler
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi David, thank you for coming on Redesigning Life.
For those of you tuning in,david Kessler is a expert in
grief and loss, and you arecoming onto the podcast for me
at such a personal time becauseI'm dealing with grief myself.
So I want to discuss with youall of the different nuances of
(00:25):
grief, and I know that maybe petgrief is not necessarily your
expertise, but it is somethingthat for me personally is so
different that I want to talk toyou about that.
So, the biggest introductionI've ever done in my life Hello
and welcome, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm grateful to be here.
Thank you, I'm grateful to behere and I'd like to just sort
of share a little bit about mefor folks that don't know me.
So, first of all, I feel likein many ways destined for this
because I was a buffet of lossesin my childhood.
(01:05):
I grew up with a and I hold myparents with love today, but I
grew up with a father who was anaddict.
Anger issues would beat me.
I had a mother who today wouldprobably be diagnosed as bipolar
and maybe narcissistic, and alot of neglect and sexual abuse.
(01:31):
Just, you know, a horriblechildhood.
And on top of it all, we lostour home in a hurricane, which,
like I, get what's going on inthe world.
So then, after all that, mymother died when I was 13.
And while she was dying in thehospital, the hotel we were at
(01:52):
there was one of the first massshootings in the US.
So I understand loss on so manylevels and I've also had losses
in addition to that since then.
But I say all those things justto illustrate.
And, by the way, I had a sweet,sweet dog in my childhood,
(02:16):
poisoned.
Now let me just to say all ofthat I want you to know like all
those things are losses In arelationship with a narcissistic
person is the death of yourself.
Yes, your home being destroyedis the death of your home.
(02:37):
And I got to tell you I soappreciate who you are and what
you do.
Because I will tell youappreciate who you are and what
you do, because I will tell youit took me years to attach to a
home because I'm willing to careabout my house.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
You know so loss comes up in so many different
ways in our world.
I got to tell you I'm one ofthose people that sometimes
people are chatting and I'm like, well, that's loss, that's loss
, that's loss.
And they're like, you see,everything is grief, and I'm
like kind of is.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Kind of.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Those are all you know I say.
A breakup is the death of arelationship, a divorce is the
death of a relationship.
Divorce is the death of amarriage.
So this is life, you know, andyou help people in specific ways
, but you also help people inlife, and that's kind of how I
do too.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yes, yeah, I had a lot of very turbulent childhood
myself and for me my safe havenwas my room and my home and as
long as I had a safe place toretreat to, I felt a foundation
there and that's what sort ofhas pushed me in my career, and
(03:58):
I know that you.
The loss of your mother, andthen also of your son, has even
put you into a deeper level ofmeaning, of understanding what
really grief looks like.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, I had my younger son died eight years ago
and I'll tell you just talkingto what you're dealing with now,
with the death of your sweetpet, Harper, correct?
Yes, you know, I had my son die, David.
I had a sweet, sweet dog ofours, Angel die nine months
(04:36):
after.
And the question I always gotis well, which was the worst?
Or the pet loss wasn't badbecause you had a son and all
that, and people always want toknow either which loss was the
worst and if we're talking aboutother people, I always go.
The worst loss is always yours.
(04:57):
Yeah, I even remember with myown son and my sweet pet going.
Why are you asking me to choose?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Horrible events in my life.
There's a lot.
I don't have the bandwidth forjust one.
I have the bandwidth for anyanimal or person that I love.
If you know, when people saywhat do you think about pet loss
?
I always say if the love isreal, the grief is real.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Grief is about love, no matter who it is, no matter
what it is Right right.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And the thing is we can never know each other's
grief.
I will never know what it'slike to have to say goodbye to
sweet Harper.
You will never know what it waslike to say goodbye to my son.
We can't know each other's pain, but we can sit with each other
(05:52):
and love each other through it.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
But is it normal?
I remember so my best friend Igrew up with since I was 10
years old.
She lost her husband five yearsago and when I was going
through this pain with Harper Ifelt foolish even discussing it
with her, because who am I totalk to her about grief when I
lost a pet and she lost herhusband?
Is it normal to feel guilt orcompare yourself to people
(06:18):
who've lost their son, like Ican't even imagine losing my
daughter.
So is it normal during thegrieving process to sort of
compare yourself and to try todumb yourself down in a for lack
of a better word in order tocope with it?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yes, it is normal to do that, and we're also afraid
of it getting minimized, and Ithink everyone feels that
minimized.
And I think everyone feels that, look, when I'm with someone
who had a murder right in frontof them, I'm like, well, I
didn't have a murder.
I mean, that sounds you know.
So I mean, I think we all, justbecause we're humans, we
(06:58):
compare our losses.
But I have a belief that likeand I'm saying this to you as a
bereaved parent, and this is thepart that I think people don't
get I'm a bereaved parent andyou have had the sweet, the
horrible loss of your sweet one.
(07:20):
All tears count.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Your tears, count your tears count.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I know that you have a list of do's and don'ts when
people lose someone and it's thewhat not to say, and I read the
list and I also saw youdiscussing it and people were
shocked that some people do say,oh well, they brought it upon
themselves or you know enoughalready.
I would think, listening tothat, there's no way anybody
(07:49):
would say that to your face.
But strangely enough, the twodays after Harper died I was
crying and someone who I lovevery much said that to me like
enough already.
You know it's been two days.
It's like what.
And what I realized in thatmoment is that everyone deals
with grief differently and somepeople can't, and it's too much
(08:11):
to bear to watch somebody elsegoing through that.
Do you notice that in the yearsthat you've been doing this?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Absolutely.
Here's the thing Our griefmakes people uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Why is?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
that makes people uncomfortable.
Why is that?
Because people feel like itmight be contagious and people
also don't like other people'spain.
Look, I'm a fixer.
If you came to me with anyproblem, I can give you three
solutions right now, unless it'sgrief.
(08:43):
You three solutions right nowunless it's grief.
But you're a grief expert, but Ican't fix you because you're
not broken, okay, and I thinkwhen people run into people that
they can't, they just, you know, one of the things I've heard
over the years from so manypeople and you might hear it
someday too is we just want theold you back, and it's like well
(09:07):
, can you bring Harper back,david back, all the people we
love?
I mean, if you can't, we'regoing to evolve and we're going
to change yes we have to acceptour losses and our friends have
to accept the changes in us, andit's challenging for a grief,
illiterate world.
(09:28):
You know, one of the things,and I didn't know if you were
going to say this, but I'll tellyou.
Now that you're in grief,everyone's going to come out of
the woodwork and talk to youbecause they suddenly know you
speak their language.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yes, yes, I was at the doctor's office and another
girl in the office had lost herdog and this woman, I don't even
know, was like hugging me andcrying on my shoulder.
And it's funny because when Iwas really in the depth of it,
like really deep that I couldnot eat, I was a shell of myself
.
All I wanted to do and I knowthis sounds crazy, but I looked
(10:06):
up pet cemeteries because Ithought, well, I'll go sit.
This sounds so nuts, but Iwanted to go sit with other
people who were grieving theirpets so that I felt like I
wasn't alone, because I felt soalone in the moment.
But what did help me is readingabout sort of life or the
afterlife of pets, and I don'tknow what is your stance on
(10:27):
afterlife, like, do you believein it?
In all of the years that you'vebeen doing this?
What is your belief systemaround that?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I do, I do.
I wrote a book years ago aboutdeathbed visions and how, when
we're dying, our loved ones cometo greet us, like people who
are dying will see theirgrandmother, their mother, and
people also would see their petsgreeting them.
(10:54):
I found it.
I find the idea that we allmight be reunited.
Look, I don't pretend to knowanything about what the
afterlife is like, but, oh mygosh, I hope to see everyone
I've loved and cared for again.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, that that gave me hope, because not just the
that I will be reunited with her, but mostly just knowing that
her soulmate or her physicalbody isn't here, but her soul is
still around me.
And I just that it did give mesome sort of like it let me
breathe again that although herphysical body isn't here, she
(11:34):
still is here.
And I know if you lose somebodyclose to you.
I do not know what it's likeand I feel I feel such pain for
you losing David, your your son.
But there, when somebody isgoing through that that deep,
that depth like of the griefthat is so horrifying and so
(11:58):
painful that they can't see outof it, what, what do you tell a
client?
What do you tell someone?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Well, a big thing is to understand the pain we feel
in the moment.
We think our mind would be sokind to us and tell us I'm here
for you, I love you, I'm withyou.
Our mind says, by the way, thispain you're feeling, this
(12:27):
loneliness, this devastation,maybe forever?
Yes, yes, really, really, likeI mean, imagine that.
Imagine you're sitting at arestaurant and you overhear
someone talking about they'vehad a loss and they're in
horrible pain and you're likeyou're going to be in it for, I
mean, you would never say that.
(12:49):
And yet our mind says it.
So I often tell people ourfeelings change.
No feeling is final, no feelingis forever.
And here's the thing we needour grief witnessed.
Yeah, we need our griefwitnessed by other people.
(13:10):
Now, the weird thing about ourworld and I teach what I call
security and grief.
Like I have security in mygrief, harper dying doesn't take
away from my grief.
It's another horrible grief inthe world Someone else's spouse,
someone's grandmother.
(13:30):
It doesn't.
I'm secure in my grief.
No other griefs change me orlessen mine or insult mine or
anything like that.
And when we think about thesefeelings are final, it's so
scares us.
And what happens is we oftenhave our best friend, our spouse
(13:53):
, our loved one, and they geteverything about us.
And then we go into grief andthey don't get it.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
And it's like wait, wait, you're my person, Right?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Right.
It's funny.
You said that you think thatyour mind plays games with you
and I want to discuss that.
But one thing that was scaringme a lot is on social media
everybody was saying I lost mydog 12 years ago and I'm still
can't sometimes get out of bedand so when I'm in the grief,
I'm going what.
I'm going to feel like thisforever.
But my best friend, who lost herhusband, said to me during this
(14:31):
time she goes.
You know, after my husband died, you said something to me.
Um, soon after that I wanted topunch you in the face.
She said this but she goes.
Now I know it's true and I wascrying.
I said what did I say?
She goes.
You said you're not alwaysgoing to feel like this and I'm
(14:51):
just now telling you you're notalways going to feel this much
grief.
And she was right, because atthat moment I thought this is
how I'm always going to feel andyour mind plays tricks on you
there.
But it also plays tricks on youabout regrets.
You would think, when somebodypasses or passes, that you just
are in grief, that they're nolonger there, but your mind it's
like a mind F where it's going.
You should have done this?
(15:12):
You didn't do this.
You forgot to say this.
You forgot to tell them thatyou should have taken them to
the carnival.
All of these should have,should have, should have, that
you're already feeling horribleand it just piles on.
Why does your mind do that?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Because your mind wants to find control.
Your mind wants to distract youand go oh, if only you would
have done this, they might'venot died.
If only you wouldn't have donethat.
Or maybe it was too soon, ormaybe you didn't do it right.
Or here's a regret because yourmind wants to focus on
(15:47):
something outside you.
Your mind doesn't want to livein a world where we're helpless
and people we love and pets welove die.
It doesn't want that and so itgives us these false things.
It also sometimes this isdistraction from the pain,
(16:07):
because it's just too hard tosit in the pain and you know,
grief is a strange time wherepeople who get everything and
love us and know us feel likestrangers and strangers can feel
like family and friends.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
That is so true, David.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
They understand it.
They understand it.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
When you lost David, your son, how was that different
?
I mean, obviously it was verydifferent.
You were in a different part ofyour life.
You're a parent, as opposed tolosing your mother, but navigate
that time.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
It's a great question .
I think I've been trainingtherapists for decades and a lot
of therapists go into thisfield because of tragedies they
had and I knew, wow, if they canget through those tragedies.
They're evidence that survivaland life after loss.
(17:15):
You know we always talk aboutlife after death for our loved
ones.
I feel like I talk about lifeafter death for us.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
We find that again and I knew the only way out of
the pain was through the pain.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
The only way out of the pain was through the pain,
and I guess what did that looklike to you?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
I went to a grief counselor.
I went to a grief group.
I it took me three times to getto a group, so you need to
surround yourself or at leasthave your grief discussions with
people who get it.
Now, one of the things we goreally wrong with is that one
(18:03):
person who doesn't get it and Iunderstand the one person who
doesn't get it could be ourspouse, our boyfriend, our best
friend.
It might be them.
Is we have to stop going tothat?
Well, for grief support?
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
You know I always say no matter how many times you
walk up and down an aisle of ahardware store, you'll never
find milk.
Just think about, if you don'tget your grief, support from
them, don't write them off,don't divorce them, don't.
Just they don't get grief.
And there's some people in thisworld I call them practical
(18:38):
grievers.
Something bad happens, theyjust move on.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That's how they're wired.
People want to know well, whichis the right way.
There's no right way.
They're just wired differentlythan us.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yes, and you know you can't.
It's like expecting a cat tobark.
Exactly, exactly, it's so true,I've spent, I've wasted a lot
of time waiting for those catsto bark.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Absolutely, and when you realize that it's freeing.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yes it's freeing, yes it is.
It's funny you say don't writethem off, because during that
time I saw a different side of alot of people in my life and
there was anger that almost cameup in me because I wasn't
supported in the way that Iwanted to be with certain people
and I did feel like God, I'mgoing to write them off.
But now, once you get out ofthat cycle, you see a little bit
(19:37):
clearer and you're right, thereare just some people who cannot
handle it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Let me tell you, recently I went to dinner with a
friend and I was just having ahorrible day around my son.
It just, for whatever reason itgot me, it still gets you from
time to time around my son.
It just for whatever reason itgot me, it still gets you from
time to time.
And I went to dinner and hesaid how are you?
And I just told him how I wasand I I said all this and what I
was going through and he pausedand looked at me and said any
(20:10):
interesting upcoming travel, didyou not?
I thought, did you not hear ofit?
But then I went oh, rememberwho he is.
Yeah, he's not my grief person,it's okay.
I started discussing grief witha travel buddy.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Long person.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You know it's not everyone traffics in feelings.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's right.
That's right.
So during the grief process youwere saying, you know, like
you're at dinner with a friendand you started feeling grief
for David.
Why is it that grief isn'tlinear?
And it does come in waves, andI, and out of nowhere, a lot of
people say, like the wave itcomes, it goes, and there are
times during the day that, outof nowhere, I'll think of Harper
and the tear.
I mean, I'm sitting here nowand I have her fur and a little
(21:05):
vial here and her little booty,and there are times that I'm not
even here and I just feel thispang of pain.
Why does grief work like that?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
A couple of things.
First of all, I helpedElizabeth Kubler-Ross, who's you
know, one of the huge names ingrief and loss, who wrote the
stages denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance and she
was the first to tell youthey're not linear.
There's no five easy steps forgrief.
There's no one way.
(21:38):
Grief is messy.
Grief is messy, and it's one ofthe things that happens is we
have what I call grief bursts.
You're fine, you're holding ittogether, and then all of a
sudden it just hits you.
That's a grief burst.
(21:58):
I remember there's lots of timesI I will be in some situation,
whether it's work or somethingsocial, and I, for whatever
reason, I'm getting grief burstsand and I'm like, excuse me,
got to go to the restroom and Idon't have a big cry and it's
like, you know, when I come out,people like you can't, I'm like
(22:20):
I don't know why I'm drinkingso much caffeine these days, you
know, and I just you know, I'mlike I'm not even going to
explain anything to them.
Right thing is, and it's reallya subtler thing, you're going
to feel when we think about ourlove, like my love for my son
David wasn't like I love you.
(22:41):
Like my love was like oh my God, oh, I love you so much.
I love you, oh, I love you.
And it's sort of up and down oh, you're driving me crazy today,
and that's.
And here's the thing After theydie, that love continues.
So sometimes we don't just havea grief burst, we also have a
(23:04):
love burst.
Yeah we'll just get filled withlove for Harper.
And the thing is, you knew howto love Harper in Harper's
presence.
You have to learn to loveHarper in their absence.
Yes, Agreed.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
It's just wild, though, how different it is than
a person, because I lost manypeople that were close to me,
including many family members,and it's just different and I
can't put my finger members, andit's just different and I can't
put my finger on it.
It's just different and itfeels like you were just saying.
There are times that I have tokind of close myself off and not
(23:45):
tell anyone that I'm feeling it.
I just say I'm okay, but isn'tthat a shame that we feel that
we have to hide our sorrowbecause it's been so long?
And it's funny that you saythat Elizabeth had coined all
those, those stages, but I thinka lot of people are under the
impression that it is linear,and people have said that to me
oh, you're now, you're in numberfive, so you're almost done.
(24:05):
Then we need to make that veryclear in this podcast.
It is those stages of grief arenot linear.
They don't.
You don't get to one and thenthe rest are gone, and you know
this from your world?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
the media always wants five easy steps.
Can you give us three?
I mean, that's what they want,that's what they did with her,
and grief isn't like that.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
It is.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
And we talked about end.
Acceptance isn't the end, youknow.
I mean, I've talked aboutmeaning now and I love that her
family enabled me to add a sixthstage which is meaning, but
it's still, it's, it's, it goeson and on and revolves around us
.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Can you talk about your book Finding Meaning?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
revolves around us.
Can you talk about your bookFinding Meaning so?
And I would love to come backand talk about shame, because I
love that you broke that up.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
We need to talk about shame.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
So the thing is, you know, after Dave had died, I
wrestled with all these.
I'm like, yep, you're, you'rein denial, you can't believe it.
Yep, you're angry.
Yep, you're bargaining thebargaining's, the what ifs, the
if onlys.
When I started thinking I'mgoing to have to deal with
acceptance someday, I'm like andthen what, that's it.
(25:23):
I just accept it.
And it wasn't enough.
I wanted to find meaning, andmeaning doesn't take away the
pain, but it cushions it.
And so when we talk aboutmeaning, people often hear
(25:44):
meaning there's no meaning.
In a child's death, a spouseafter 50 years, a murder, covid,
a pet loss, there's no meaning.
And I'll go correct Meaning isnot in the horrible event.
Meaning is in us.
It's what we do after.
Ah yes.
And people make the mistake ofthinking all right, what I got
(26:06):
to go start a charity?
No, it doesn't have to be ahuge, gigantic thing, be a huge
gigantic thing.
Meaning is often in the momentsLike right now, someone is
probably alone, isolated and ina lot of pain and they're going
(26:29):
to hear this.
And that makes this ameaningful moment for me.
And one of the other things Italk about with meaning is you
know, we often feel when a lovedone dies, a part of us died
with them, but a part of themlives on in us.
Yes, and how do we nurture thatpart that lives on?
(26:50):
Yes, you know, to not just gothrough this but eventually to
grow through it.
You know meaning.
We often talk about thepost-traumatic stress of
everything these days.
Meaning is the post-traumaticgrowth.
I love that.
Oh, and not just.
You know.
I had to decide after my sondied, after my son died, is his
(27:22):
death going to make him asmaller?
Speaker 1 (27:24):
or bigger, and I wanted to make me bigger in his
honor.
Can you share with me how youdid that?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
I think one of the ways is my son.
My son.
He died at 21, but when he wasin kindergarten he was voted
most likely to be a helper andhe was trying to, in his life,
figure out did he want to go tomedical school?
(27:49):
Did he want to be a paramedic?
He was trying to figure out hisrole as helper and he didn't
get to do that in life and Ihope somehow, with my work and
talking about meaning andsharing, that that in death he
gets to help people, that hedidn't get to help in life yeah,
(28:10):
I love that, I'll tell you myson loved our dogs, loved our
pets, you know.
And the thing is like right nowI have just such a sweet
chocolate lab, lucy, and I'lltell you, sometimes I look at
her and go her personality is sounique in all the world and I
(28:36):
think that's what's importantabout understanding the grief is
that, whether it's your spouseor your child, I mean, they were
so unique in all the world andthat's what we miss so much.
(29:00):
And I think what's confusingabout pet loss is, you know,
when we talk about how we seegrief, part of it is measured by
frequency, intensity, thingslike that.
Like you might have a brotherwho lives across the country,
you see, once a year, I promiseyou your pet hours a day, every
(29:22):
single day, no matter what, byyour side, in your pet, in your
bed, at your feet every day for15 years.
That's a lot of intensity andfrequency.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, yes, you're right, I never thought about it
that way.
I never thought about it thatway.
I actually thought it's justbecause pets aren't jerks, and
sometimes people are.
But you're right, it's just thefrequency that I'm missing a
lot, and that's why it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Pets aren't jerks.
I will give that to you also.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
They are not.
You were talking about shame,and it's funny because I don't
like it, so the shame comes upof the.
I should have done it Like.
I'll give you one example AfterHarper passed, I had her
euthanized here at the house andshe was.
She took her last breath in myliving room and I forgot that I
(30:17):
had a ring camera that cancapture that area of my house
and I made the mistake ofwatching the video.
After she passed and after shetook her last breath, the sound
that came out of my body didn'teven sound human.
It was this like roar comingfrom my stomach of a scream, and
(30:37):
I had sadness and shame fordoing that, because here she
probably is taking her lastbreath, ascending into the next
dimension, and I'm screaminglike a crazy person and I felt
sad.
I felt I should have kept ittogether a little bit longer
until her body left.
It was like your mind makes upall of these you should have.
(30:57):
You are not good enough.
You're a piece of poop orwhatever it's like.
Why?
Why does shame just rear itsugly head when you're already
feeling low?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
So we live in a world that sometimes I think we
project spiritual things thatget in the way of our feelings.
I wouldn't write your storythat way.
Let me tell you sometimes andthis is like the teachings we
(31:35):
all hear I don't happen tobelieve entities, when they die,
are just that fragile and thatweak.
And we live in a world thatsays, oh, you ruined her
ascension, oh, my gosh, ifyou're going to grieve, you're
(31:56):
going to break the connection.
You can't have those feelings.
And here's the thing they're inthe spiritual realm, we're in
the human realm and we have tohave human emotions.
And this is something I tellmyself all the time.
I can't be any more enlightenedthan I am in any given moment.
(32:19):
And you know, if I was writingyour story, I would say that
scream was a scream of love, ofheartbreak.
I don't think Harper was in anyrealm that you were
interrupting anything or youshould have held it together.
(32:41):
I understand that's a story.
I don't happen to buy into thatstory.
I understand that's a story, Idon't happen to buy into that
story.
I think that if someone hadlooked down at you and could
have seen you in that moment,harper would have been like look
at her love for me?
I hope so.
Look at her love for me, I meanto me.
(33:02):
Sometimes people tell me Ipounded the bed.
I yelled, I screamed.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I poundedthe bed.
I yelled, I screamed.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I wouldlove that when I die, I would
love to see the people around meloving me that much.
Like you.
Don't pound the bed of anyoneyou don't care about.
You don't care about them.
(33:23):
Thank you, david.
Those are acts of love.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
So thank you, that made me feel a lot better.
But what if somebody is haslost their husband or child and
they're going through the shame?
Let's say they lost their childand they think about that time
that they never took them toDisneyland, or they just wanted
to go to the park that day and Inever took them.
And why did I put work beforethem?
And why didn't I spend moretime playing on the floor with
(33:52):
them?
And it's the why, the why, thewhy.
And it's this constant loop.
How do you, what do you tell aclient who's in that shame loop?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Well, first of all, I think about you.
Know we all want more.
We all did this imperfectly.
We all wish we could have doneit differently.
Our mind, our work, is for ourmind not to revolve but evolve,
(34:22):
so it is to get out of that loop.
One of the things is we weretalking about you know, people
say now you got to do your griefwork.
Okay, what's my grief work?
And that's one of the reasons Iwanted to do a workbook, like
as if we're sitting at yourkitchen table together.
(34:43):
If we're sitting at yourkitchen table together and shame
can be insidious, can I justshare a couple of things so you
can hear these, please?
Okay, and I have these.
People can take a look at themTo think about this on one hand
over here, to gauge where yourshame is.
I'm private with my grief orI'm completely open with my
(35:07):
grief, okay.
Okay, if you're private withyour grief, you might have some
shame when meeting strangers,open or private.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I'm definitely open.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Okay, at work.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Somewhere in between.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
With your partner.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Open for the most part.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
With your closest friends.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Open for the most part.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
You haven't seen in a while.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Somewhere in between.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
And it goes on asking those because we don't realize
how.
And you and I are lucky we livein a world where we kind of
determine our work right.
If we worked in the post office, you and I next to each other,
we couldn't be as open, right.
Or if we were someone's waiteror waitress, yes, so a lot of
(36:07):
that feeds the isolation, thealoneness we feel.
And to think about even you andI, as much as we can do what we
sort of want, we still have alittle shame around it.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yes, I don't think anyone in walking on this earth
is open 100%, that's just.
It's impossible to be because,you know, we, we are allowed to
have our own thoughts.
I mean, sometimes I I'm doingmy, my friends and my partner a
service by not being so open,because I have crazy thoughts in
my head sometimes.
(36:43):
So you know, I think that themore open we can be you're right
there's less shame there.
I can completely see acorrelation between the two.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
And I also know for me, when I've been in pain, I
had more than I could give toany one person.
I so needed to spread it around.
Yes, you know, like you said, Ican't let you see everything
that's going on, so I'm going togive a little bit to everyone,
(37:14):
and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yes, that's okay to do.
It was during the next thatHarper pass on a Friday.
That whole weekend was acomplete blur to me.
It was almost like I wasblackout drunk because there
were, I was having conversationswith people, but I was
forgetting.
Did I already tell you this?
Did I already tell you that?
And it is this like cyclone.
You're sort of in in thebeginning stages and I think
(37:39):
that you if anyone's listeningto this, that's going through
that to give yourself some graceand allow the time to pass, and
what Dave and I just said likeyou're not going to feel like
this forever, not to say youwon't have the moments, but that
depth of grief does get a loteasier.
And I think you had said it onanother podcast it's not about
(38:01):
getting over it, but it's aboutmoving forward.
It's not about getting over it,but it's about moving forward.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Right, moving forward .
And to know it doesn't mean weever forget, right, it doesn't
mean we ever forget.
And the outside world?
One of the things that happensis so many people say to me like
my friend had this loss, youknow, I know it's going to be a
year coming up, or it's going tobe this or it's going to be
that.
Should I know it's going to bea year coming up or it's going
(38:26):
to be this or it's going to bethat?
Should I mention it?
And I always go yes, mention it.
Yes, say their loved one's name, yes, mention it, and then
they'll come back and they'll go.
David, I took your advice andyou know what I mentioned it
that it's going to be a yearsince her mom died and she
started crying.
I made her cry.
Thanks a lot, david, and I'llgo.
(38:48):
You didn't make her cry, shewas already crying.
You became safe for her tosuddenly cry with yes.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yes, that is so true.
It's not like she forgot.
It was a year ago.
She remembered she was justhoping somebody else would too,
and you saying that probablymade her feel safe.
Yes, I love that.
Can you show the book?
And so anybody listening, Iwill have in the show notes
David's book, all of his books.
He's written six, his Instagram, but also the workbook.
(39:23):
But there is a count.
It's such a good workbook thatthere's a counterfeit out there.
So how does somebody tell whichone is yours?
Speaker 2 (39:30):
So mine is the one that's completely teal.
It is Finding Meaning theworkbook, and it's the only one
by me, david Kessler.
They know they got the rightone because they go to griefcom
and then they can go to anAmazon link, a Barnes and Noble
and indie books.
Or just make sure, if you go toyour independent bookstore,
which I love, just ask them toget the one by me, because there
(39:55):
is.
It's a shocking thing, as wesaid, but like how weird that
success means people are goingto use AI to copy your work.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
It's crazy, but you know what I would give.
I would take it as a complimentthat people are copying your
work.
I'm trying.
Just wait until somebody comesout as David Kessler with your
picture on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Oh, I live with that and I'm sure you do.
It's crazy, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Thank you so much, David, for your time.
Again, if anyone's listening intheir car, I will have all of
David's contact information inthe show notes.
Thank you so much for being onRedesigning Life.
It was so timely that you cameon.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Oh, and you know, thank you for your work.
I'll tell you it's interesting,like I mentioned just about not
attaching to my world andfinding a safe place, that, like
you know, I've called on somany people like you to help me
feel safe, in sort of connectingagain to my surroundings.
And you know, I think you'redoing healing work.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for sayingthat.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Healing comes in many , many forms.
So thank you.
I love your work and I love allthat you do, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Thank you, David.
Hi David, thank you for coming on Redesigning Life.
For those of you tuning in,david Kessler is a expert in
grief and loss, and you arecoming onto the podcast for me
at such a personal time becauseI'm dealing with grief myself.
So I want to discuss with youall of the different nuances of
(00:25):
grief, and I know that maybe petgrief is not necessarily your
expertise, but it is somethingthat for me personally is so
different that I want to talk toyou about that.
So, the biggest introductionI've ever done in my life Hello
and welcome, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm grateful to be here.
Thank you, I'm grateful to behere and I'd like to just sort
of share a little bit about mefor folks that don't know me.
So, first of all, I feel likein many ways destined for this
because I was a buffet of lossesin my childhood.
(01:05):
I grew up with a and I hold myparents with love today, but I
grew up with a father who was anaddict.
Anger issues would beat me.
I had a mother who today wouldprobably be diagnosed as bipolar
and maybe narcissistic, and alot of neglect and sexual abuse.
(01:31):
Just, you know, a horriblechildhood.
And on top of it all, we lostour home in a hurricane, which,
like I, get what's going on inthe world.
So then, after all that, mymother died when I was 13.
And while she was dying in thehospital, the hotel we were at
(01:52):
there was one of the first massshootings in the US.
So I understand loss on so manylevels and I've also had losses
in addition to that since then.
But I say all those things justto illustrate.
And, by the way, I had a sweet,sweet dog in my childhood,
(02:16):
poisoned.
Now let me just to say all ofthat I want you to know like all
those things are losses In arelationship with a narcissistic
person is the death of yourself.
Yes, your home being destroyedis the death of your home.
(02:37):
And I got to tell you I soappreciate who you are and what
you do.
Because I will tell youappreciate who you are and what
you do, because I will tell youit took me years to attach to a
home because I'm willing to careabout my house.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
You know so loss comes up in so many different
ways in our world.
I got to tell you I'm one ofthose people that sometimes
people are chatting and I'm like, well, that's loss, that's loss
, that's loss.
And they're like, you see,everything is grief, and I'm
like kind of is.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Kind of.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Those are all you know I say.
A breakup is the death of arelationship, a divorce is the
death of a relationship.
Divorce is the death of amarriage.
So this is life, you know, andyou help people in specific ways
, but you also help people inlife, and that's kind of how I
do too.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yes, yeah, I had a lot of very turbulent childhood
myself and for me my safe havenwas my room and my home and as
long as I had a safe place toretreat to, I felt a foundation
there and that's what sort ofhas pushed me in my career, and
(03:58):
I know that you.
The loss of your mother, andthen also of your son, has even
put you into a deeper level ofmeaning, of understanding what
really grief looks like.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, I had my younger son died eight years ago
and I'll tell you just talkingto what you're dealing with now,
with the death of your sweetpet, Harper, correct?
Yes, you know, I had my son die, David.
I had a sweet, sweet dog ofours, Angel die nine months
(04:36):
after.
And the question I always gotis well, which was the worst?
Or the pet loss wasn't badbecause you had a son and all
that, and people always want toknow either which loss was the
worst and if we're talking aboutother people, I always go.
The worst loss is always yours.
(04:57):
Yeah, I even remember with myown son and my sweet pet going.
Why are you asking me to choose?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Horrible events in my life.
There's a lot.
I don't have the bandwidth forjust one.
I have the bandwidth for anyanimal or person that I love.
If you know, when people saywhat do you think about pet loss
?
I always say if the love isreal, the grief is real.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Grief is about love, no matter who it is, no matter
what it is Right right.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And the thing is we can never know each other's
grief.
I will never know what it'slike to have to say goodbye to
sweet Harper.
You will never know what it waslike to say goodbye to my son.
We can't know each other's pain, but we can sit with each other
(05:52):
and love each other through it.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
But is it normal?
I remember so my best friend Igrew up with since I was 10
years old.
She lost her husband five yearsago and when I was going
through this pain with Harper Ifelt foolish even discussing it
with her, because who am I totalk to her about grief when I
lost a pet and she lost herhusband?
Is it normal to feel guilt orcompare yourself to people
(06:18):
who've lost their son, like Ican't even imagine losing my
daughter.
So is it normal during thegrieving process to sort of
compare yourself and to try todumb yourself down in a for lack
of a better word in order tocope with it?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yes, it is normal to do that, and we're also afraid
of it getting minimized, and Ithink everyone feels that
minimized.
And I think everyone feels that, look, when I'm with someone
who had a murder right in frontof them, I'm like, well, I
didn't have a murder.
I mean, that sounds you know.
So I mean, I think we all, justbecause we're humans, we
(06:58):
compare our losses.
But I have a belief that likeand I'm saying this to you as a
bereaved parent, and this is thepart that I think people don't
get I'm a bereaved parent andyou have had the sweet, the
horrible loss of your sweet one.
(07:20):
All tears count.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Your tears, count your tears count.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I know that you have a list of do's and don'ts when
people lose someone and it's thewhat not to say, and I read the
list and I also saw youdiscussing it and people were
shocked that some people do say,oh well, they brought it upon
themselves or you know enoughalready.
I would think, listening tothat, there's no way anybody
(07:49):
would say that to your face.
But strangely enough, the twodays after Harper died I was
crying and someone who I lovevery much said that to me like
enough already.
You know it's been two days.
It's like what.
And what I realized in thatmoment is that everyone deals
with grief differently and somepeople can't, and it's too much
(08:11):
to bear to watch somebody elsegoing through that.
Do you notice that in the yearsthat you've been doing this?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Absolutely.
Here's the thing Our griefmakes people uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Why is?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
that makes people uncomfortable.
Why is that?
Because people feel like itmight be contagious and people
also don't like other people'spain.
Look, I'm a fixer.
If you came to me with anyproblem, I can give you three
solutions right now, unless it'sgrief.
(08:43):
You three solutions right nowunless it's grief.
But you're a grief expert, but Ican't fix you because you're
not broken, okay, and I thinkwhen people run into people that
they can't, they just, you know, one of the things I've heard
over the years from so manypeople and you might hear it
someday too is we just want theold you back, and it's like well
(09:07):
, can you bring Harper back,david back, all the people we
love?
I mean, if you can't, we'regoing to evolve and we're going
to change yes we have to acceptour losses and our friends have
to accept the changes in us, andit's challenging for a grief,
illiterate world.
(09:28):
You know, one of the things,and I didn't know if you were
going to say this, but I'll tellyou.
Now that you're in grief,everyone's going to come out of
the woodwork and talk to youbecause they suddenly know you
speak their language.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yes, yes, I was at the doctor's office and another
girl in the office had lost herdog and this woman, I don't even
know, was like hugging me andcrying on my shoulder.
And it's funny because when Iwas really in the depth of it,
like really deep that I couldnot eat, I was a shell of myself
.
All I wanted to do and I knowthis sounds crazy, but I looked
(10:06):
up pet cemeteries because Ithought, well, I'll go sit.
This sounds so nuts, but Iwanted to go sit with other
people who were grieving theirpets so that I felt like I
wasn't alone, because I felt soalone in the moment.
But what did help me is readingabout sort of life or the
afterlife of pets, and I don'tknow what is your stance on
(10:27):
afterlife, like, do you believein it?
In all of the years that you'vebeen doing this?
What is your belief systemaround that?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I do, I do.
I wrote a book years ago aboutdeathbed visions and how, when
we're dying, our loved ones cometo greet us, like people who
are dying will see theirgrandmother, their mother, and
people also would see their petsgreeting them.
(10:54):
I found it.
I find the idea that we allmight be reunited.
Look, I don't pretend to knowanything about what the
afterlife is like, but, oh mygosh, I hope to see everyone
I've loved and cared for again.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, that that gave me hope, because not just the
that I will be reunited with her, but mostly just knowing that
her soulmate or her physicalbody isn't here, but her soul is
still around me.
And I just that it did give mesome sort of like it let me
breathe again that although herphysical body isn't here, she
(11:34):
still is here.
And I know if you lose somebodyclose to you.
I do not know what it's likeand I feel I feel such pain for
you losing David, your your son.
But there, when somebody isgoing through that that deep,
that depth like of the griefthat is so horrifying and so
(11:58):
painful that they can't see outof it, what, what do you tell a
client?
What do you tell someone?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Well, a big thing is to understand the pain we feel
in the moment.
We think our mind would be sokind to us and tell us I'm here
for you, I love you, I'm withyou.
Our mind says, by the way, thispain you're feeling, this
(12:27):
loneliness, this devastation,maybe forever?
Yes, yes, really, really, likeI mean, imagine that.
Imagine you're sitting at arestaurant and you overhear
someone talking about they'vehad a loss and they're in
horrible pain and you're likeyou're going to be in it for, I
mean, you would never say that.
(12:49):
And yet our mind says it.
So I often tell people ourfeelings change.
No feeling is final, no feelingis forever.
And here's the thing we needour grief witnessed.
Yeah, we need our griefwitnessed by other people.
(13:10):
Now, the weird thing about ourworld and I teach what I call
security and grief.
Like I have security in mygrief, harper dying doesn't take
away from my grief.
It's another horrible grief inthe world Someone else's spouse,
someone's grandmother.
(13:30):
It doesn't.
I'm secure in my grief.
No other griefs change me orlessen mine or insult mine or
anything like that.
And when we think about thesefeelings are final, it's so
scares us.
And what happens is we oftenhave our best friend, our spouse
(13:53):
, our loved one, and they geteverything about us.
And then we go into grief andthey don't get it.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
And it's like wait, wait, you're my person, Right?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Right.
It's funny.
You said that you think thatyour mind plays games with you
and I want to discuss that.
But one thing that was scaringme a lot is on social media
everybody was saying I lost mydog 12 years ago and I'm still
can't sometimes get out of bedand so when I'm in the grief,
I'm going what.
I'm going to feel like thisforever.
But my best friend, who lost herhusband, said to me during this
(14:31):
time she goes.
You know, after my husband died, you said something to me.
Um, soon after that I wanted topunch you in the face.
She said this but she goes.
Now I know it's true and I wascrying.
I said what did I say?
She goes.
You said you're not alwaysgoing to feel like this and I'm
(14:51):
just now telling you you're notalways going to feel this much
grief.
And she was right, because atthat moment I thought this is
how I'm always going to feel andyour mind plays tricks on you
there.
But it also plays tricks on youabout regrets.
You would think, when somebodypasses or passes, that you just
are in grief, that they're nolonger there, but your mind it's
like a mind F where it's going.
You should have done this?
(15:12):
You didn't do this.
You forgot to say this.
You forgot to tell them thatyou should have taken them to
the carnival.
All of these should have,should have, should have, that
you're already feeling horribleand it just piles on.
Why does your mind do that?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Because your mind wants to find control.
Your mind wants to distract youand go oh, if only you would
have done this, they might'venot died.
If only you wouldn't have donethat.
Or maybe it was too soon, ormaybe you didn't do it right.
Or here's a regret because yourmind wants to focus on
(15:47):
something outside you.
Your mind doesn't want to livein a world where we're helpless
and people we love and pets welove die.
It doesn't want that and so itgives us these false things.
It also sometimes this isdistraction from the pain,
(16:07):
because it's just too hard tosit in the pain and you know,
grief is a strange time wherepeople who get everything and
love us and know us feel likestrangers and strangers can feel
like family and friends.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
That is so true, David.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
They understand it.
They understand it.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
When you lost David, your son, how was that different
?
I mean, obviously it was verydifferent.
You were in a different part ofyour life.
You're a parent, as opposed tolosing your mother, but navigate
that time.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
It's a great question .
I think I've been trainingtherapists for decades and a lot
of therapists go into thisfield because of tragedies they
had and I knew, wow, if they canget through those tragedies.
They're evidence that survivaland life after loss.
(17:15):
You know we always talk aboutlife after death for our loved
ones.
I feel like I talk about lifeafter death for us.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
We find that again and I knew the only way out of
the pain was through the pain.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
The only way out of the pain was through the pain,
and I guess what did that looklike to you?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
I went to a grief counselor.
I went to a grief group.
I it took me three times to getto a group, so you need to
surround yourself or at leasthave your grief discussions with
people who get it.
Now, one of the things we goreally wrong with is that one
(18:03):
person who doesn't get it and Iunderstand the one person who
doesn't get it could be ourspouse, our boyfriend, our best
friend.
It might be them.
Is we have to stop going tothat?
Well, for grief support?
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
You know I always say no matter how many times you
walk up and down an aisle of ahardware store, you'll never
find milk.
Just think about, if you don'tget your grief, support from
them, don't write them off,don't divorce them, don't.
Just they don't get grief.
And there's some people in thisworld I call them practical
(18:38):
grievers.
Something bad happens, theyjust move on.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That's how they're wired.
People want to know well, whichis the right way.
There's no right way.
They're just wired differentlythan us.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yes, and you know you can't.
It's like expecting a cat tobark.
Exactly, exactly, it's so true,I've spent, I've wasted a lot
of time waiting for those catsto bark.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Absolutely, and when you realize that it's freeing.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yes it's freeing, yes it is.
It's funny you say don't writethem off, because during that
time I saw a different side of alot of people in my life and
there was anger that almost cameup in me because I wasn't
supported in the way that Iwanted to be with certain people
and I did feel like God, I'mgoing to write them off.
But now, once you get out ofthat cycle, you see a little bit
(19:37):
clearer and you're right, thereare just some people who cannot
handle it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Let me tell you, recently I went to dinner with a
friend and I was just having ahorrible day around my son.
It just, for whatever reason itgot me, it still gets you from
time to time around my son.
It just for whatever reason itgot me, it still gets you from
time to time.
And I went to dinner and hesaid how are you?
And I just told him how I wasand I I said all this and what I
was going through and he pausedand looked at me and said any
(20:10):
interesting upcoming travel, didyou not?
I thought, did you not hear ofit?
But then I went oh, rememberwho he is.
Yeah, he's not my grief person,it's okay.
I started discussing grief witha travel buddy.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Long person.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You know it's not everyone traffics in feelings.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's right.
That's right.
So during the grief process youwere saying, you know, like
you're at dinner with a friendand you started feeling grief
for David.
Why is it that grief isn'tlinear?
And it does come in waves, andI, and out of nowhere, a lot of
people say, like the wave itcomes, it goes, and there are
times during the day that, outof nowhere, I'll think of Harper
and the tear.
I mean, I'm sitting here nowand I have her fur and a little
(21:05):
vial here and her little booty,and there are times that I'm not
even here and I just feel thispang of pain.
Why does grief work like that?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
A couple of things.
First of all, I helpedElizabeth Kubler-Ross, who's you
know, one of the huge names ingrief and loss, who wrote the
stages denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance and she
was the first to tell youthey're not linear.
There's no five easy steps forgrief.
There's no one way.
(21:38):
Grief is messy.
Grief is messy, and it's one ofthe things that happens is we
have what I call grief bursts.
You're fine, you're holding ittogether, and then all of a
sudden it just hits you.
That's a grief burst.
(21:58):
I remember there's lots of timesI I will be in some situation,
whether it's work or somethingsocial, and I, for whatever
reason, I'm getting grief burstsand and I'm like, excuse me,
got to go to the restroom and Idon't have a big cry and it's
like, you know, when I come out,people like you can't, I'm like
(22:20):
I don't know why I'm drinkingso much caffeine these days, you
know, and I just you know, I'mlike I'm not even going to
explain anything to them.
Right thing is, and it's reallya subtler thing, you're going
to feel when we think about ourlove, like my love for my son
David wasn't like I love you.
(22:41):
Like my love was like oh my God, oh, I love you so much.
I love you, oh, I love you.
And it's sort of up and down oh, you're driving me crazy today,
and that's.
And here's the thing After theydie, that love continues.
So sometimes we don't just havea grief burst, we also have a
(23:04):
love burst.
Yeah we'll just get filled withlove for Harper.
And the thing is, you knew howto love Harper in Harper's
presence.
You have to learn to loveHarper in their absence.
Yes, Agreed.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
It's just wild, though, how different it is than
a person, because I lost manypeople that were close to me,
including many family members,and it's just different and I
can't put my finger members, andit's just different and I can't
put my finger on it.
It's just different and itfeels like you were just saying.
There are times that I have tokind of close myself off and not
(23:45):
tell anyone that I'm feeling it.
I just say I'm okay, but isn'tthat a shame that we feel that
we have to hide our sorrowbecause it's been so long?
And it's funny that you saythat Elizabeth had coined all
those, those stages, but I thinka lot of people are under the
impression that it is linear,and people have said that to me
oh, you're now, you're in numberfive, so you're almost done.
(24:05):
Then we need to make that veryclear in this podcast.
It is those stages of grief arenot linear.
They don't.
You don't get to one and thenthe rest are gone, and you know
this from your world?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
the media always wants five easy steps.
Can you give us three?
I mean, that's what they want,that's what they did with her,
and grief isn't like that.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
It is.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
And we talked about end.
Acceptance isn't the end, youknow.
I mean, I've talked aboutmeaning now and I love that her
family enabled me to add a sixthstage which is meaning, but
it's still, it's, it's, it goeson and on and revolves around us
.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Can you talk about your book Finding Meaning?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
revolves around us.
Can you talk about your bookFinding Meaning so?
And I would love to come backand talk about shame, because I
love that you broke that up.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
We need to talk about shame.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
So the thing is, you know, after Dave had died, I
wrestled with all these.
I'm like, yep, you're, you'rein denial, you can't believe it.
Yep, you're angry.
Yep, you're bargaining thebargaining's, the what ifs, the
if onlys.
When I started thinking I'mgoing to have to deal with
acceptance someday, I'm like andthen what, that's it.
(25:23):
I just accept it.
And it wasn't enough.
I wanted to find meaning, andmeaning doesn't take away the
pain, but it cushions it.
And so when we talk aboutmeaning, people often hear
(25:44):
meaning there's no meaning.
In a child's death, a spouseafter 50 years, a murder, covid,
a pet loss, there's no meaning.
And I'll go correct Meaning isnot in the horrible event.
Meaning is in us.
It's what we do after.
Ah yes.
And people make the mistake ofthinking all right, what I got
(26:06):
to go start a charity?
No, it doesn't have to be ahuge, gigantic thing, be a huge
gigantic thing.
Meaning is often in the momentsLike right now, someone is
probably alone, isolated and ina lot of pain and they're going
(26:29):
to hear this.
And that makes this ameaningful moment for me.
And one of the other things Italk about with meaning is you
know, we often feel when a lovedone dies, a part of us died
with them, but a part of themlives on in us.
Yes, and how do we nurture thatpart that lives on?
(26:50):
Yes, you know, to not just gothrough this but eventually to
grow through it.
You know meaning.
We often talk about thepost-traumatic stress of
everything these days.
Meaning is the post-traumaticgrowth.
I love that.
Oh, and not just.
You know.
I had to decide after my sondied, after my son died, is his
(27:22):
death going to make him asmaller?
Speaker 1 (27:24):
or bigger, and I wanted to make me bigger in his
honor.
Can you share with me how youdid that?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
I think one of the ways is my son.
My son.
He died at 21, but when he wasin kindergarten he was voted
most likely to be a helper andhe was trying to, in his life,
figure out did he want to go tomedical school?
(27:49):
Did he want to be a paramedic?
He was trying to figure out hisrole as helper and he didn't
get to do that in life and Ihope somehow, with my work and
talking about meaning andsharing, that that in death he
gets to help people, that hedidn't get to help in life yeah,
(28:10):
I love that, I'll tell you myson loved our dogs, loved our
pets, you know.
And the thing is like right nowI have just such a sweet
chocolate lab, lucy, and I'lltell you, sometimes I look at
her and go her personality is sounique in all the world and I
(28:36):
think that's what's importantabout understanding the grief is
that, whether it's your spouseor your child, I mean, they were
so unique in all the world andthat's what we miss so much.
(29:00):
And I think what's confusingabout pet loss is, you know,
when we talk about how we seegrief, part of it is measured by
frequency, intensity, thingslike that.
Like you might have a brotherwho lives across the country,
you see, once a year, I promiseyou your pet hours a day, every
(29:22):
single day, no matter what, byyour side, in your pet, in your
bed, at your feet every day for15 years.
That's a lot of intensity andfrequency.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, yes, you're right, I never thought about it
that way.
I never thought about it thatway.
I actually thought it's justbecause pets aren't jerks, and
sometimes people are.
But you're right, it's just thefrequency that I'm missing a
lot, and that's why it's so hard.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Pets aren't jerks.
I will give that to you also.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
They are not.
You were talking about shame,and it's funny because I don't
like it, so the shame comes upof the.
I should have done it Like.
I'll give you one example AfterHarper passed, I had her
euthanized here at the house andshe was.
She took her last breath in myliving room and I forgot that I
(30:17):
had a ring camera that cancapture that area of my house
and I made the mistake ofwatching the video.
After she passed and after shetook her last breath, the sound
that came out of my body didn'teven sound human.
It was this like roar comingfrom my stomach of a scream, and
(30:37):
I had sadness and shame fordoing that, because here she
probably is taking her lastbreath, ascending into the next
dimension, and I'm screaminglike a crazy person and I felt
sad.
I felt I should have kept ittogether a little bit longer
until her body left.
It was like your mind makes upall of these you should have.
(30:57):
You are not good enough.
You're a piece of poop orwhatever it's like.
Why?
Why does shame just rear itsugly head when you're already
feeling low?
Speaker 2 (31:10):
So we live in a world that sometimes I think we
project spiritual things thatget in the way of our feelings.
I wouldn't write your storythat way.
Let me tell you sometimes andthis is like the teachings we
(31:35):
all hear I don't happen tobelieve entities, when they die,
are just that fragile and thatweak.
And we live in a world thatsays, oh, you ruined her
ascension, oh, my gosh, ifyou're going to grieve, you're
(31:56):
going to break the connection.
You can't have those feelings.
And here's the thing they're inthe spiritual realm, we're in
the human realm and we have tohave human emotions.
And this is something I tellmyself all the time.
I can't be any more enlightenedthan I am in any given moment.
(32:19):
And you know, if I was writingyour story, I would say that
scream was a scream of love, ofheartbreak.
I don't think Harper was in anyrealm that you were
interrupting anything or youshould have held it together.
(32:41):
I understand that's a story.
I don't happen to buy into thatstory.
I understand that's a story, Idon't happen to buy into that
story.
I think that if someone hadlooked down at you and could
have seen you in that moment,harper would have been like look
at her love for me?
I hope so.
Look at her love for me, I meanto me.
(33:02):
Sometimes people tell me Ipounded the bed.
I yelled, I screamed.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I poundedthe bed.
I yelled, I screamed.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I wouldlove that when I die, I would
love to see the people around meloving me that much.
Like you.
Don't pound the bed of anyoneyou don't care about.
You don't care about them.
(33:23):
Thank you, david.
Those are acts of love.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
So thank you, that made me feel a lot better.
But what if somebody is haslost their husband or child and
they're going through the shame?
Let's say they lost their childand they think about that time
that they never took them toDisneyland, or they just wanted
to go to the park that day and Inever took them.
And why did I put work beforethem?
And why didn't I spend moretime playing on the floor with
(33:52):
them?
And it's the why, the why, thewhy.
And it's this constant loop.
How do you, what do you tell aclient who's in that shame loop?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Well, first of all, I think about you.
Know we all want more.
We all did this imperfectly.
We all wish we could have doneit differently.
Our mind, our work, is for ourmind not to revolve but evolve,
(34:22):
so it is to get out of that loop.
One of the things is we weretalking about you know, people
say now you got to do your griefwork.
Okay, what's my grief work?
And that's one of the reasons Iwanted to do a workbook, like
as if we're sitting at yourkitchen table together.
(34:43):
If we're sitting at yourkitchen table together and shame
can be insidious, can I justshare a couple of things so you
can hear these, please?
Okay, and I have these.
People can take a look at themTo think about this on one hand
over here, to gauge where yourshame is.
I'm private with my grief orI'm completely open with my
(35:07):
grief, okay.
Okay, if you're private withyour grief, you might have some
shame when meeting strangers,open or private.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I'm definitely open.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Okay, at work.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Somewhere in between.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
With your partner.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Open for the most part.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
With your closest friends.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Open for the most part.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
You haven't seen in a while.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Somewhere in between.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
And it goes on asking those because we don't realize
how.
And you and I are lucky we livein a world where we kind of
determine our work right.
If we worked in the post office, you and I next to each other,
we couldn't be as open, right.
Or if we were someone's waiteror waitress, yes, so a lot of
(36:07):
that feeds the isolation, thealoneness we feel.
And to think about even you andI, as much as we can do what we
sort of want, we still have alittle shame around it.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yes, I don't think anyone in walking on this earth
is open 100%, that's just.
It's impossible to be because,you know, we, we are allowed to
have our own thoughts.
I mean, sometimes I I'm doingmy, my friends and my partner a
service by not being so open,because I have crazy thoughts in
my head sometimes.
(36:43):
So you know, I think that themore open we can be you're right
there's less shame there.
I can completely see acorrelation between the two.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
And I also know for me, when I've been in pain, I
had more than I could give toany one person.
I so needed to spread it around.
Yes, you know, like you said, Ican't let you see everything
that's going on, so I'm going togive a little bit to everyone,
(37:14):
and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yes, that's okay to do.
It was during the next thatHarper pass on a Friday.
That whole weekend was acomplete blur to me.
It was almost like I wasblackout drunk because there
were, I was having conversationswith people, but I was
forgetting.
Did I already tell you this?
Did I already tell you that?
And it is this like cyclone.
You're sort of in in thebeginning stages and I think
(37:39):
that you if anyone's listeningto this, that's going through
that to give yourself some graceand allow the time to pass, and
what Dave and I just said likeyou're not going to feel like
this forever, not to say youwon't have the moments, but that
depth of grief does get a loteasier.
And I think you had said it onanother podcast it's not about
(38:01):
getting over it, but it's aboutmoving forward.
It's not about getting over it,but it's about moving forward.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Right, moving forward .
And to know it doesn't mean weever forget, right, it doesn't
mean we ever forget.
And the outside world?
One of the things that happensis so many people say to me like
my friend had this loss, youknow, I know it's going to be a
year coming up, or it's going tobe this or it's going to be
that.
Should I know it's going to bea year coming up or it's going
(38:26):
to be this or it's going to bethat?
Should I mention it?
And I always go yes, mention it.
Yes, say their loved one's name, yes, mention it, and then
they'll come back and they'll go.
David, I took your advice andyou know what I mentioned it
that it's going to be a yearsince her mom died and she
started crying.
I made her cry.
Thanks a lot, david, and I'llgo.
(38:48):
You didn't make her cry, shewas already crying.
You became safe for her tosuddenly cry with yes.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Yes, that is so true.
It's not like she forgot.
It was a year ago.
She remembered she was justhoping somebody else would too,
and you saying that probablymade her feel safe.
Yes, I love that.
Can you show the book?
And so anybody listening, Iwill have in the show notes
David's book, all of his books.
He's written six, his Instagram, but also the workbook.
(39:23):
But there is a count.
It's such a good workbook thatthere's a counterfeit out there.
So how does somebody tell whichone is yours?
Speaker 2 (39:30):
So mine is the one that's completely teal.
It is Finding Meaning theworkbook, and it's the only one
by me, david Kessler.
They know they got the rightone because they go to griefcom
and then they can go to anAmazon link, a Barnes and Noble
and indie books.
Or just make sure, if you go toyour independent bookstore,
which I love, just ask them toget the one by me, because there
(39:55):
is.
It's a shocking thing, as wesaid, but like how weird that
success means people are goingto use AI to copy your work.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
It's crazy, but you know what I would give.
I would take it as a complimentthat people are copying your
work.
I'm trying.
Just wait until somebody comesout as David Kessler with your
picture on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Oh, I live with that and I'm sure you do.
It's crazy, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Thank you so much, David, for your time.
Again, if anyone's listening intheir car, I will have all of
David's contact information inthe show notes.
Thank you so much for being onRedesigning Life.
It was so timely that you cameon.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Oh, and you know, thank you for your work.
I'll tell you it's interesting,like I mentioned just about not
attaching to my world andfinding a safe place, that, like
you know, I've called on somany people like you to help me
feel safe, in sort of connectingagain to my surroundings.
And you know, I think you'redoing healing work.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for sayingthat.
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Healing comes in many , many forms.
So thank you.
I love your work and I love allthat you do, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Thank you, David.
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