November 29, 2024 • 25 mins
In this conversation, Sabrina Soto and Nedra Tawwab delve into the complexities of setting boundaries, particularly within family dynamics. They discuss the feelings of guilt that often accompany boundary-setting, the importance of recognizing unhealthy relationships, and the challenges posed by social media in maintaining boundaries. Nedra shares insights on navigating difficult family relationships, understanding gaslighting, and the necessity of personal growth in changing dynamics. The discussion emphasizes the importance of self-care and the empowerment that comes from establishing healthy boundaries.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Sabrina Soto.
I believe the bestconversations are with friends
who are really able to openthemselves up and share their
lives, both the good parts andthe bad.
You're going to be listening tosome of those candid
conversations and hopefullygaining some insight to help you
redesign your life from theinside out out.
(00:31):
Nedra, thank you so much forjoining us on Redesigning Life.
I'm excited to talk to youbecause of all the work you've
done.
You have three of the biggestbooks of family dynamics,
boundaries and settingdrama-free with family dynamics.
Consider this and the SettingBoundaries and I feel like I've
struggled with all of thosethings.
The setting boundaries, and Ifeel like I've struggled with
all of those things my entirelife and I feel like a lot of
listeners have struggled withboundaries and family dynamics.
(00:52):
So I have a list of questions.
Hopefully you can get througheverything, but thank you so
much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You're welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
And I love your background so much.
As a designer, I can't stopstaring at like your color
coding that's happening in thebackground.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Oh, thank you.
It was a group project to colorcode in that way, so I'm very
pleased with how it turned out.
So thank, you it looksbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay.
So the first question I havefor you is Okay.
So the first question I havefor you is the guilt you feel or
I don't say you, I have felt inmy past, and I think a lot of
listeners of redesigning lifefeel the same way of just when
you set a boundary.
All of a sudden you kind offeel like a badass.
You set the boundary and thenthe guilt starts creeping in.
(01:41):
So what advice do you give topeople to sort of combat that?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Feel the guilt and stick with the boundary.
I think sometimes we feel guiltas a reason to stop, like that
guilt is telling us to say no,when in actuality that guilt is
just letting you know thatyou're compassionate, you care,
you want to, you want to maybeplease people, you don't want to
upset people, but it'scertainly not a reason to pursue
(02:10):
your boundary.
It can be something that youovercome with practice.
There are many times where wefeel guilt because we haven't
practiced having a certainboundary enough, and then
there's other times where peoplehave made us feel guilty about
having boundaries.
I think of situations where youknow in my family, if you don't
(02:33):
hug an adult and you're a kid,it's like you're going to let me
be sad, you're going to, you'regoing to be mean to me.
So there is a lot of guilttripping that makes us feel
really hug, uh, really bad fornot wanting to hug a person.
So you know, sometimes with ourboundaries, it is set up for us
to feel guilty and we have toconsider that.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
So when the person is yeah, because, by the way, I
know exactly what you're talkingabout, which is why I never ask
my daughter to hug anybody.
She doesn't feel like hugging.
But what sort of mantra?
What can you say to yourselfwhen you start feeling that like
, oh, I'm letting that persondown, Maybe I'm making them feel
uncomfortable?
How can we talk ourselves outof buckling it, giving in?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
We have to sit with discomfort and I think so often
we are trying to run away fromit.
So whenever we have a feeling,we're trying to manage the
feeling.
So if I feel reallyuncomfortable, how do I stop
myself from feelinguncomfortable?
And it's like maybe you justneed to feel uncomfortable
because you are doing something.
I do some public speaking andI'm always interested in people
(03:40):
say like, how do you speak somuch and not feel nervous?
I'm like I always feel nervous,I still speak.
The assumption that I get tosome point where I don't care
about having to speak in frontof strangers.
It's not true and we often feellike, in order for me to do
(04:00):
something, I can't feel anynervousness, any guilt, any
discomfort.
I have to feel great aboutdoing it.
I never feel great going to thedentist, but I go every time it
just needs to be done right.
Like there are certain thingsthat we must do.
It might be a little bituncomfortable and we will be
(04:23):
okay with it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I think I spent a lot of my 20s numbing myself in one
way or another to not feeluncomfortable, which led to
obviously really unhealthypatterns, and I think a lot of
people probably do that too.
It's like I'm feelinguncomfortable, so what can I do
to distract myself or to numbmyself from feeling it, so that
it feels a little bit better?
And you're right, it's, it'sthe dentist is a perfect example
.
It's like, yeah, you feel itand you do it anyway because
it's part of your, you know,evolving as a human.
(04:53):
You spoke about empathy andthat means you're like okay,
well, that's great Cause, itmeans you have empathy, but how
do you still stay empathic as ahuman being and create healthy
boundaries for yourself?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Well, we can care about people without giving in,
and I know that because I'm aparent and every night my
children fight to not go to bed,and I really care about their
needs.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Every night.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Every night.
They are 10 and 8.
I have an 8-year-old too.
I'm like when does it getbetter?
What I mean?
If I could talk to a psychic, Iwould be like name the date and
time when my kids won't come inmy room.
That's all I want to know.
I don't need lottery numbers, Ijust need to know the date and
time that this is right and it'slike they don't talk to you out
(05:43):
like all day and then you'regoing to bed.
It's like now.
It's so many stories, so manystories.
I can't tell you the thingsthat I found out at 9 PM.
Oh, my gosh, it's like you.
You have this living in yoursoul all day, my gosh, um.
So I'm saying that to saythey're sweet little faces and
(06:06):
you know that.
You know sometimes they are sad.
You know sometimes they arescared.
You know sometimes maybe theyare having some issues going to
sleep, but at the end of the day, the way we all go to sleep is
by closing our eyes.
We have to start there.
So you to do is get in the bedand close your eyes, because
(06:28):
that will induce sleep, becauseif you keep coming in my room
and playing in your room andtalking, that's not going to
make you sleepy at all.
Right, so what you need to dois maybe the thing that you're
afraid to do whether it's, youknow, trying to lay down and go
to sleep, maybe it's saying thishard thing to your boss, maybe
it's having a difficultconversation with your friend
(06:51):
that is what will get you thepeace and ease on the other side
of that situation.
So often we are so concernedabout not just our comfort level
, because sometimes we can placethe boundary.
We can deal with discomfort,but with certain people in our
life, oh gosh.
I know my people, I know allthe things they complain about
(07:14):
with other people, and that doesmake me a little more sensitive
to what I say to them, becauseguess what I'm like?
Oh, I know how much it hurttheir feelings when this other
person said no to their party.
I know how much it hurt theirfeelings when this other person
said no to their party.
I know how much it hurt theirfeelings when this other thing
happened and in actuality, it'slike I may have to hurt some
(07:35):
feelings.
I don't know what's happeningwith my eyes.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Do you suffer from allergies?
Because I do too.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
No, I think I'm.
I'm just, I don't know what'sgoing on.
I'm making you cry.
Okay, go ahead.
This is real life.
This is real life.
This is this is real life, andmy eyes have no boundaries.
They're like boundary lists.
Right now, they're like youknow what You're talking about,
(08:04):
something important, and we'regoing to itch.
That's what we'll do.
We'll itch because we want youto be quiet about this.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Now you're making my eyes itch.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, it's like we want to run amok.
Don't stop us, well, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
So then you were talking about, like,
disappointing people and youknow, sometimes having to set
that it's time to walk away.
What signs should somebody lookout for when it's really time
to not just set a boundary butto end a relationship,
especially with a family member,which I think is probably the
(08:42):
toughest one?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
You know, I think we live in a culture of more talk
about cutting people off.
I don't think it's happeningmore.
I think people have beencutting people off for 150 years
.
I probably have some familymembers that moved to
Connecticut and changed theirlast name and I don't even know
we're related, right, becausethat's how you could do it back
in the day.
It's like, yeah, I'm leavingTennessee and you'd never see
(09:06):
Sarah again.
So that was, that was thecutoff.
Now there are so many ways tobe in contact with people and to
communicate with them that it'sa little bit harder to just,
you know, have.
That is, emotionally, mentally,physically, sexually.
Those things happen in familiesand we need to end
(09:38):
relationships with those peopleBecause sometimes, when we do
not, we have a lot ofre-traumatizing, because when
those people don't change, theyjust keep bringing up that old
stuff.
We go into a cycle and blah,blah, blah.
Now, with that said, there issome nuance to that Because, as
human beings, what we determineto be emotional or mental abuse
(10:03):
can be scaled right, like thereare some things that are like,
oh, I really don't like the waythey said that to me.
And then there is like, okay,this person is cursing me out
every time I talk to them.
So there is a level to what isand what is not abuse, and I
think sometimes, before we getto that place of cutting people
(10:26):
off, we have to consider otherpaths, because in families we
will be around people.
Now, if it is a physical orsexual abuse situation, there
likely isn't another path, butif it's emotional abuse or
mental abuse, you may want toconsider.
You know, is this a familymember I need to speak to on a
(10:47):
regular basis?
Have I explored what minimalcontact looked like?
Have I explored having contactonly on the holiday?
Have I explored, you know,talking to this person on an as
needed basis?
Have I explored not having aclose relationship with this
person?
Because in families it isassumed that we will be close
(11:11):
and sometimes that's thechallenge.
I can be an acquaintance with acousin, but maybe I don't want
you to be my favorite cousin,right.
Right, maybe I can be anacquaintance with my brother.
Yeah, I don't want us to bebest siblings.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Right, I feel like a cousin is different than a
sibling, or the worst is, youhave to cut ties with a parent.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yes, yes, because there is this expectation of
what the relationship shouldlook like.
You should call me every week.
You should do this.
You should do that when, inactuality, relationships are
determined by the relation, notthe blood, and so if we aren't
doing a lot of relating, wedon't have a lot in common.
You, uh, you have someunhealthy behaviors that you
(11:57):
aren't correcting.
They're really impacting me.
Now I have a choice in whatthat communication and contact
can look like.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Right, Okay.
So then I'm listening to thispodcast, which I know I
shouldn't be listening tobecause it's making me a little
crazy, but it's about these,these women who all got duped by
this narcissistic ex-husband oftheirs and and as you're
listening to it, you're likewake up, you know like what.
But I've been in situationswhere I have been gaslit and I
(12:30):
didn't necessarily know that itwas unhealthy until you walk
away.
I know you've probably dealwith a million clients that are
in a situation like that.
So what advice do you give topeople when they're in maybe, a
unhealthy dynamic, but thereisn't any necessarily proof,
it's just sort of theirintuition that things aren't
(12:50):
really lining up.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Well, as a therapist, you know, part of our work is
allowing people to come to theirown understanding and often
when they're in a relationshipwith a narcissist, things don't
seem narcissistic because youwant to be in the relationship.
The person has convinced youthat part of this is true, that
you know these things thatthey're making up and the
gaslighting is working becauseyou haven't recognized that it's
gaslighting.
(13:19):
So when people get to the spaceof there is something off about
this person, they are morelikely to listen to what the
therapist has to say.
They are more likely to bereceptive to some tools of gray
walling or, you know, onlygiving a little bit of
information, not apologizingwhen you actually didn't do
(13:40):
anything like they're morereceptive to those things, but
when people are in the thick ofit, they're under the spell,
right.
So you know, I used to have arelationship with someone in my
family and the gaslighting usedto work.
Oh my gosh, I was just readingsome old journals and I wrote I
(14:01):
felt so bad for this person.
They had gaslit me.
I was, I was feeling so bad forthem.
The whole journal entry waslike oh, I just pity this person
and I want to help them more,and blah, blah, blah.
And then this is a person wholast year was calling me several
times and just cursing me outbecause the gaslighting was no
(14:23):
longer working.
This is a person who I was justlike, oh my gosh, if I say this
thing, I need to quicklyapologize and look at how their
feelings are hurt.
They're so sad because you'rein.
Apologize and look at how theirfeelings are hurt.
They're so sad because you'rein it.
You're like in their spell.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
But what made you finally wake up to what was
happening personally?
What happened?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
if you don't mind me asking oh, you know, I just
started to feel really icky.
I just started to feel reallyicky about this person.
I mean, this is a familyrelationship.
So I've had the relationship mywhole entire life, I would say.
You know, in my twenties I kindof noticed some stuff was off,
but I still was in the loop.
(15:02):
Once I started to have kids, myBS meter it just it went up,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
It went up very high.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I have less time for nonsense.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Agreed I have.
I have less time for anything.
Long showers, long showers,lots of stuff I have less time
for.
So, yeah, it's.
It's just like I started to beable to better detect what was
the most useful relationship formy time.
(15:38):
Where was I getting the mostvalue?
Who were the people who wereloving me back?
Who were the people who wereshowing up for me?
Who were the people who werethere for me when things were
happening?
It wasn't this person there forme.
When things were happening, itwasn't this person.
And so I started to pull backbecause I was like, wait a
minute, this person.
They don't have any reason, butthey never show up to anything
(16:00):
and they get missing.
You know, one of the one of thethings was they wouldn't show
up to any of my celebratorymoments because they couldn't be
the center of attention, yeah,and so they would get missing.
Like you have the birthdayparty, you have the graduation
or whatever.
You wouldn't hear from them fora week or two, and then they'd
(16:21):
call you two weeks later andthey'd sound regular.
And once I had my daughter,that happened again.
I had big lifestyle moment andthey disappeared, yeah, and then
they popped back up and theydisappeared, yeah.
And then they popped back upand they were just talking about
I'm like hey, hey, hey, I got ababy.
Can you ask me how I'm doing?
How's the?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
baby Right, and so that's what it is in your life.
That's not celebrating you atany time.
That is a big, big red flag.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
That's a huge red flag, and I hadn't, you know,
not to say I didn't notice it,but I excused it.
I gave that person so manyexcuses, oh my gosh.
So there was a point where Irealized I am giving this person
out when they haven't evenasked for one.
I'm not even challenging thisstuff and so the aggressiveness
(17:10):
started when I started tochallenge the things that they
were doing.
Well, why didn't you come tothis thing?
What you know it's like oh whoa, like I can't even talk to you
about this stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
So I think sometimes we change our relationships when
we change yes.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Okay, well, let's talk about that.
So I feel like in the last twoyears I've changed so much, and
not just having Olivia and nothaving enough time for the
nonsense, but just even growing.
And I feel like a lot of peoplein my life kind of got upset.
There was a lot of pushbackLike what do you mean?
(17:51):
You're not going to put up withthis?
You've put up with this for thelast 10 years, or you know, and
it's hard because you want togrow, but not everyone's going
to go on that journey with you.
So how do you deal with thatpersonally, when you do make
those big changes?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I am okay with not everyone being on the journey
because the people who need tobe here will be here.
I think there is room in ourlife for more people who can
aboard the train.
So we have to make room forpeople who understand it,
particularly in families.
You know it's very complicatedto undo a relationship because
(18:28):
it impacts so many other things.
Sometimes you can't get out ofthat relationship with a parent
when your siblings are bringingthem up or the other parent is
bringing them up.
So you know it can be reallycomplicated but you may have to
find support elsewhere.
It might not be the people whoare still willing to be in that
relationship, because for thatperson in my family in
(18:51):
particular, everybody wouldagree that this person has a
problem and only a handful offolks don't deal with this
person.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
It's like we want to and everyone else does.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Everyone else does and they talk about all of these
new situations that come up andhow wild this was, and then the
next Tuesday they're back inthe situation with that person.
So it's like, wow, you arereally in that thing with them.
And you know, some of thethings I've said is I don't need
to hear any more new stories.
I have enough to do a Netflixseries.
(19:25):
I don't any new stories.
I'm working on a trilogy rightnow.
So please do not bring any newstories from October 2024,
(19:47):
because I you know a part of meI feel like and I've said this I
am so happy that they have youbecause we all need somebody.
Yeah, it won't be me, right,but I'm happy they have you.
Yeah, so, if you can withstandthat level of dysfunction in a
(20:09):
relationship, we all needsomeone.
I'm not their someone, butperhaps you are.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
But yeah, you bring up a good point of just there's
not only the guilt of the personthat you're maybe cutting off
or limited contact with, butit's also the family members
behind it.
Like, come on, he's not thatbad, or she's had a hard life,
or, you know, she was abandonedby her parents.
It's like, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
And I could be doing a lot of stuff because of my
life tragedies.
I mean, seriously, if thoseexcuses work, I would be doing,
I would be robbing banks, Iwould.
I mean, I'd be doing all sorts.
Oh, no, no, no, no, I havechildhood trauma.
You can't lock me up.
Yeah, that stuff doesn't work.
(20:54):
It doesn't work Not anymore, itdoesn't work as an excuse for
you to abuse people or tomistreat them.
We can grow from our pain.
We can learn to do better.
We don't have to be in thatcycle of becoming the abuser.
I know how many people getthere because it's hard to get
(21:15):
out of that pattern of what'sbeen done to you and what you've
seen done.
There is something powerfulabout that for some folks, but
it's not an excuse to hurtpeople.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, no, I agree, and I think there are a lot of
people, especially peoplepleasers or perfectionists, that
they feel like they have to fixit because that's where I spent
my 20s.
And if they can't fix it andthey have to walk away, it's a
failure and that's just not true.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I think it's a failure to stay sometimes in
that sort of relationship,whether it's a friendship, a
family dynamic or a romanticrelationship.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, wasting any more time can be the failure.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yes, you talked about social media earlier and I just
want to touch on that before wego.
I think, and you tell me, it'sactually been more difficult to
create boundaries becauseeveryone is so accessible.
So in your career, becauseyou've been doing this quite
some time, how have you seensocial media affect people,
(22:16):
being able to create boundariesand cut people out or leave
relationships?
How has it affected it and madeit a little bit difficult, more
difficult?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Well, we have the option to still view someone's
life Right Now.
There are some blockers theycan have.
Perhaps they can set theiraccount to private and not
invite anybody with an unknownname, but in many cases people
do have the option to check onus to look at what's going on.
So it can be really hard tostep away from some of those
(22:49):
relationships because it'sconstantly being shown to you.
I mean we can leave socialmedia.
That's certainly, you know, anoption.
I mean we can leave socialmedia that's certainly, you know
, an option.
But it's challenging to seepeople moving on without you
sometimes.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Right.
I remember somebody said to mebecause we all like after a
breakup, we've all done it ofthis still looking and and your
brain doesn't know thedifference, and it's almost like
you're there again if,especially if it was a toxic
relationship.
But I know that it's, you'reright, it's like we've never.
When I grew up, we didn't evenhave social media, so when you
broke up with somebody it wasjust bye, you just didn't walk
(23:26):
down that street anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
And that was the end of that.
But it's just yeah, that isthat is tough and I think it's
the same thing with cuttingfamily members off.
Like I said, you could justleave.
You'd be like, hey, I'm fromDetroit, but I'm moving to
California, your family isn'tgoing to come find you.
It was like, hey, we have anaunt and so-and-so, but now you
(23:51):
could do all sorts of things tofind people and be in contact
with them.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I know.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And keep in touch.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I feel like it's a.
It's more difficult now tocreate these boundaries, but
then even more empowering oncewe do, because there's so many
more steps that we need to takein order to stick up for
ourselves, in a sense.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, it is a worthy journey for many of us to place
these boundaries in ourrelationships and to figure out
what they need to look out.
Look like, um, there is acontinuum of boundaries.
It's not just cutting peopleoff.
It could be figuring out if youneed to take a step back, if
you need to pause.
Um, is this something you needto revisit, because sometimes
(24:33):
we've cut people off and weactually because again, because
we've changed, maybe we cantolerate the relationship
differently.
That's right.
So that's a consideration aswell, that sometimes we've cut
people off and we didn't havethe tools to deal with them.
And now we have some tools andmaybe we can repair some of
those relationships.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Nedra, we have to have you back on.
I could talk to you for hours.
Anybody who's listening.
I'll have all the contactinformation.
You should follow her onInstagram.
Her three books the one ifyou're dealing with any family
dynamics, drama Free is probablylike the best book to go with.
But also, you have SetBoundaries, find Peace and
Consider this as well, and youhave a Ted talk that I saw.
(25:17):
Um, your website has yourpodcast and your videos and your
Instagram and all of that, butI'll have it all in the show
notes.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Hi, I'm Sabrina Soto.
I believe the bestconversations are with friends
who are really able to openthemselves up and share their
lives, both the good parts andthe bad.
You're going to be listening tosome of those candid
conversations and hopefullygaining some insight to help you
redesign your life from theinside out out.
(00:31):
Nedra, thank you so much forjoining us on Redesigning Life.
I'm excited to talk to youbecause of all the work you've
done.
You have three of the biggestbooks of family dynamics,
boundaries and settingdrama-free with family dynamics.
Consider this and the SettingBoundaries and I feel like I've
struggled with all of thosethings.
The setting boundaries, and Ifeel like I've struggled with
all of those things my entirelife and I feel like a lot of
listeners have struggled withboundaries and family dynamics.
(00:52):
So I have a list of questions.
Hopefully you can get througheverything, but thank you so
much for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You're welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
And I love your background so much.
As a designer, I can't stopstaring at like your color
coding that's happening in thebackground.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Oh, thank you.
It was a group project to colorcode in that way, so I'm very
pleased with how it turned out.
So thank, you it looksbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay.
So the first question I havefor you is Okay.
So the first question I havefor you is the guilt you feel or
I don't say you, I have felt inmy past, and I think a lot of
listeners of redesigning lifefeel the same way of just when
you set a boundary.
All of a sudden you kind offeel like a badass.
You set the boundary and thenthe guilt starts creeping in.
(01:41):
So what advice do you give topeople to sort of combat that?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Feel the guilt and stick with the boundary.
I think sometimes we feel guiltas a reason to stop, like that
guilt is telling us to say no,when in actuality that guilt is
just letting you know thatyou're compassionate, you care,
you want to, you want to maybeplease people, you don't want to
upset people, but it'scertainly not a reason to pursue
(02:10):
your boundary.
It can be something that youovercome with practice.
There are many times where wefeel guilt because we haven't
practiced having a certainboundary enough, and then
there's other times where peoplehave made us feel guilty about
having boundaries.
I think of situations where youknow in my family, if you don't
(02:33):
hug an adult and you're a kid,it's like you're going to let me
be sad, you're going to, you'regoing to be mean to me.
So there is a lot of guilttripping that makes us feel
really hug, uh, really bad fornot wanting to hug a person.
So you know, sometimes with ourboundaries, it is set up for us
to feel guilty and we have toconsider that.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
So when the person is yeah, because, by the way, I
know exactly what you're talkingabout, which is why I never ask
my daughter to hug anybody.
She doesn't feel like hugging.
But what sort of mantra?
What can you say to yourselfwhen you start feeling that like
, oh, I'm letting that persondown, Maybe I'm making them feel
uncomfortable?
How can we talk ourselves outof buckling it, giving in?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
We have to sit with discomfort and I think so often
we are trying to run away fromit.
So whenever we have a feeling,we're trying to manage the
feeling.
So if I feel reallyuncomfortable, how do I stop
myself from feelinguncomfortable?
And it's like maybe you justneed to feel uncomfortable
because you are doing something.
I do some public speaking andI'm always interested in people
(03:40):
say like, how do you speak somuch and not feel nervous?
I'm like I always feel nervous,I still speak.
The assumption that I get tosome point where I don't care
about having to speak in frontof strangers.
It's not true and we often feellike, in order for me to do
(04:00):
something, I can't feel anynervousness, any guilt, any
discomfort.
I have to feel great aboutdoing it.
I never feel great going to thedentist, but I go every time it
just needs to be done right.
Like there are certain thingsthat we must do.
It might be a little bituncomfortable and we will be
(04:23):
okay with it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I think I spent a lot of my 20s numbing myself in one
way or another to not feeluncomfortable, which led to
obviously really unhealthypatterns, and I think a lot of
people probably do that too.
It's like I'm feelinguncomfortable, so what can I do
to distract myself or to numbmyself from feeling it, so that
it feels a little bit better?
And you're right, it's, it'sthe dentist is a perfect example
.
It's like, yeah, you feel itand you do it anyway because
it's part of your, you know,evolving as a human.
(04:53):
You spoke about empathy andthat means you're like okay,
well, that's great Cause, itmeans you have empathy, but how
do you still stay empathic as ahuman being and create healthy
boundaries for yourself?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Well, we can care about people without giving in,
and I know that because I'm aparent and every night my
children fight to not go to bed,and I really care about their
needs.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Every night.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Every night.
They are 10 and 8.
I have an 8-year-old too.
I'm like when does it getbetter?
What I mean?
If I could talk to a psychic, Iwould be like name the date and
time when my kids won't come inmy room.
That's all I want to know.
I don't need lottery numbers, Ijust need to know the date and
time that this is right and it'slike they don't talk to you out
(05:43):
like all day and then you'regoing to bed.
It's like now.
It's so many stories, so manystories.
I can't tell you the thingsthat I found out at 9 PM.
Oh, my gosh, it's like you.
You have this living in yoursoul all day, my gosh, um.
So I'm saying that to saythey're sweet little faces and
(06:06):
you know that.
You know sometimes they are sad.
You know sometimes they arescared.
You know sometimes maybe theyare having some issues going to
sleep, but at the end of the day, the way we all go to sleep is
by closing our eyes.
We have to start there.
So you to do is get in the bedand close your eyes, because
(06:28):
that will induce sleep, becauseif you keep coming in my room
and playing in your room andtalking, that's not going to
make you sleepy at all.
Right, so what you need to dois maybe the thing that you're
afraid to do whether it's, youknow, trying to lay down and go
to sleep, maybe it's saying thishard thing to your boss, maybe
it's having a difficultconversation with your friend
(06:51):
that is what will get you thepeace and ease on the other side
of that situation.
So often we are so concernedabout not just our comfort level
, because sometimes we can placethe boundary.
We can deal with discomfort,but with certain people in our
life, oh gosh.
I know my people, I know allthe things they complain about
(07:14):
with other people, and that doesmake me a little more sensitive
to what I say to them, becauseguess what I'm like?
Oh, I know how much it hurttheir feelings when this other
person said no to their party.
I know how much it hurt theirfeelings when this other person
said no to their party.
I know how much it hurt theirfeelings when this other thing
happened and in actuality, it'slike I may have to hurt some
(07:35):
feelings.
I don't know what's happeningwith my eyes.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Do you suffer from allergies?
Because I do too.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
No, I think I'm.
I'm just, I don't know what'sgoing on.
I'm making you cry.
Okay, go ahead.
This is real life.
This is real life.
This is this is real life, andmy eyes have no boundaries.
They're like boundary lists.
Right now, they're like youknow what You're talking about,
(08:04):
something important, and we'regoing to itch.
That's what we'll do.
We'll itch because we want youto be quiet about this.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Now you're making my eyes itch.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, it's like we want to run amok.
Don't stop us, well, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
So then you were talking about, like,
disappointing people and youknow, sometimes having to set
that it's time to walk away.
What signs should somebody lookout for when it's really time
to not just set a boundary butto end a relationship,
especially with a family member,which I think is probably the
(08:42):
toughest one?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
You know, I think we live in a culture of more talk
about cutting people off.
I don't think it's happeningmore.
I think people have beencutting people off for 150 years
.
I probably have some familymembers that moved to
Connecticut and changed theirlast name and I don't even know
we're related, right, becausethat's how you could do it back
in the day.
It's like, yeah, I'm leavingTennessee and you'd never see
(09:06):
Sarah again.
So that was, that was thecutoff.
Now there are so many ways tobe in contact with people and to
communicate with them that it'sa little bit harder to just,
you know, have.
That is, emotionally, mentally,physically, sexually.
Those things happen in familiesand we need to end
(09:38):
relationships with those peopleBecause sometimes, when we do
not, we have a lot ofre-traumatizing, because when
those people don't change, theyjust keep bringing up that old
stuff.
We go into a cycle and blah,blah, blah.
Now, with that said, there issome nuance to that Because, as
human beings, what we determineto be emotional or mental abuse
(10:03):
can be scaled right, like thereare some things that are like,
oh, I really don't like the waythey said that to me.
And then there is like, okay,this person is cursing me out
every time I talk to them.
So there is a level to what isand what is not abuse, and I
think sometimes, before we getto that place of cutting people
(10:26):
off, we have to consider otherpaths, because in families we
will be around people.
Now, if it is a physical orsexual abuse situation, there
likely isn't another path, butif it's emotional abuse or
mental abuse, you may want toconsider.
You know, is this a familymember I need to speak to on a
(10:47):
regular basis?
Have I explored what minimalcontact looked like?
Have I explored having contactonly on the holiday?
Have I explored, you know,talking to this person on an as
needed basis?
Have I explored not having aclose relationship with this
person?
Because in families it isassumed that we will be close
(11:11):
and sometimes that's thechallenge.
I can be an acquaintance with acousin, but maybe I don't want
you to be my favorite cousin,right.
Right, maybe I can be anacquaintance with my brother.
Yeah, I don't want us to bebest siblings.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Right, I feel like a cousin is different than a
sibling, or the worst is, youhave to cut ties with a parent.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yes, yes, because there is this expectation of
what the relationship shouldlook like.
You should call me every week.
You should do this.
You should do that when, inactuality, relationships are
determined by the relation, notthe blood, and so if we aren't
doing a lot of relating, wedon't have a lot in common.
You, uh, you have someunhealthy behaviors that you
(11:57):
aren't correcting.
They're really impacting me.
Now I have a choice in whatthat communication and contact
can look like.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Right, Okay.
So then I'm listening to thispodcast, which I know I
shouldn't be listening tobecause it's making me a little
crazy, but it's about these,these women who all got duped by
this narcissistic ex-husband oftheirs and and as you're
listening to it, you're likewake up, you know like what.
But I've been in situationswhere I have been gaslit and I
(12:30):
didn't necessarily know that itwas unhealthy until you walk
away.
I know you've probably dealwith a million clients that are
in a situation like that.
So what advice do you give topeople when they're in maybe, a
unhealthy dynamic, but thereisn't any necessarily proof,
it's just sort of theirintuition that things aren't
(12:50):
really lining up.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Well, as a therapist, you know, part of our work is
allowing people to come to theirown understanding and often
when they're in a relationshipwith a narcissist, things don't
seem narcissistic because youwant to be in the relationship.
The person has convinced youthat part of this is true, that
you know these things thatthey're making up and the
gaslighting is working becauseyou haven't recognized that it's
gaslighting.
(13:19):
So when people get to the spaceof there is something off about
this person, they are morelikely to listen to what the
therapist has to say.
They are more likely to bereceptive to some tools of gray
walling or, you know, onlygiving a little bit of
information, not apologizingwhen you actually didn't do
(13:40):
anything like they're morereceptive to those things, but
when people are in the thick ofit, they're under the spell,
right.
So you know, I used to have arelationship with someone in my
family and the gaslighting usedto work.
Oh my gosh, I was just readingsome old journals and I wrote I
(14:01):
felt so bad for this person.
They had gaslit me.
I was, I was feeling so bad forthem.
The whole journal entry waslike oh, I just pity this person
and I want to help them more,and blah, blah, blah.
And then this is a person wholast year was calling me several
times and just cursing me outbecause the gaslighting was no
(14:23):
longer working.
This is a person who I was justlike, oh my gosh, if I say this
thing, I need to quicklyapologize and look at how their
feelings are hurt.
They're so sad because you'rein.
Apologize and look at how theirfeelings are hurt.
They're so sad because you'rein it.
You're like in their spell.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
But what made you finally wake up to what was
happening personally?
What happened?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
if you don't mind me asking oh, you know, I just
started to feel really icky.
I just started to feel reallyicky about this person.
I mean, this is a familyrelationship.
So I've had the relationship mywhole entire life, I would say.
You know, in my twenties I kindof noticed some stuff was off,
but I still was in the loop.
(15:02):
Once I started to have kids, myBS meter it just it went up,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
It went up very high.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I have less time for nonsense.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Agreed I have.
I have less time for anything.
Long showers, long showers,lots of stuff I have less time
for.
So, yeah, it's.
It's just like I started to beable to better detect what was
the most useful relationship formy time.
(15:38):
Where was I getting the mostvalue?
Who were the people who wereloving me back?
Who were the people who wereshowing up for me?
Who were the people who werethere for me when things were
happening?
It wasn't this person there forme.
When things were happening, itwasn't this person.
And so I started to pull backbecause I was like, wait a
minute, this person.
They don't have any reason, butthey never show up to anything
(16:00):
and they get missing.
You know, one of the one of thethings was they wouldn't show
up to any of my celebratorymoments because they couldn't be
the center of attention, yeah,and so they would get missing.
Like you have the birthdayparty, you have the graduation
or whatever.
You wouldn't hear from them fora week or two, and then they'd
(16:21):
call you two weeks later andthey'd sound regular.
And once I had my daughter,that happened again.
I had big lifestyle moment andthey disappeared, yeah, and then
they popped back up and theydisappeared, yeah.
And then they popped back upand they were just talking about
I'm like hey, hey, hey, I got ababy.
Can you ask me how I'm doing?
How's the?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
baby Right, and so that's what it is in your life.
That's not celebrating you atany time.
That is a big, big red flag.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
That's a huge red flag, and I hadn't, you know,
not to say I didn't notice it,but I excused it.
I gave that person so manyexcuses, oh my gosh.
So there was a point where Irealized I am giving this person
out when they haven't evenasked for one.
I'm not even challenging thisstuff and so the aggressiveness
(17:10):
started when I started tochallenge the things that they
were doing.
Well, why didn't you come tothis thing?
What you know it's like oh whoa, like I can't even talk to you
about this stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
So I think sometimes we change our relationships when
we change yes.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Okay, well, let's talk about that.
So I feel like in the last twoyears I've changed so much, and
not just having Olivia and nothaving enough time for the
nonsense, but just even growing.
And I feel like a lot of peoplein my life kind of got upset.
There was a lot of pushbackLike what do you mean?
(17:51):
You're not going to put up withthis?
You've put up with this for thelast 10 years, or you know, and
it's hard because you want togrow, but not everyone's going
to go on that journey with you.
So how do you deal with thatpersonally, when you do make
those big changes?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I am okay with not everyone being on the journey
because the people who need tobe here will be here.
I think there is room in ourlife for more people who can
aboard the train.
So we have to make room forpeople who understand it,
particularly in families.
You know it's very complicatedto undo a relationship because
(18:28):
it impacts so many other things.
Sometimes you can't get out ofthat relationship with a parent
when your siblings are bringingthem up or the other parent is
bringing them up.
So you know it can be reallycomplicated but you may have to
find support elsewhere.
It might not be the people whoare still willing to be in that
relationship, because for thatperson in my family in
(18:51):
particular, everybody wouldagree that this person has a
problem and only a handful offolks don't deal with this
person.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
It's like we want to and everyone else does.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Everyone else does and they talk about all of these
new situations that come up andhow wild this was, and then the
next Tuesday they're back inthe situation with that person.
So it's like, wow, you arereally in that thing with them.
And you know, some of thethings I've said is I don't need
to hear any more new stories.
I have enough to do a Netflixseries.
(19:25):
I don't any new stories.
I'm working on a trilogy rightnow.
So please do not bring any newstories from October 2024,
(19:47):
because I you know a part of meI feel like and I've said this I
am so happy that they have youbecause we all need somebody.
Yeah, it won't be me, right,but I'm happy they have you.
Yeah, so, if you can withstandthat level of dysfunction in a
(20:09):
relationship, we all needsomeone.
I'm not their someone, butperhaps you are.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
But yeah, you bring up a good point of just there's
not only the guilt of the personthat you're maybe cutting off
or limited contact with, butit's also the family members
behind it.
Like, come on, he's not thatbad, or she's had a hard life,
or, you know, she was abandonedby her parents.
It's like, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
And I could be doing a lot of stuff because of my
life tragedies.
I mean, seriously, if thoseexcuses work, I would be doing,
I would be robbing banks, Iwould.
I mean, I'd be doing all sorts.
Oh, no, no, no, no, I havechildhood trauma.
You can't lock me up.
Yeah, that stuff doesn't work.
(20:54):
It doesn't work Not anymore, itdoesn't work as an excuse for
you to abuse people or tomistreat them.
We can grow from our pain.
We can learn to do better.
We don't have to be in thatcycle of becoming the abuser.
I know how many people getthere because it's hard to get
(21:15):
out of that pattern of what'sbeen done to you and what you've
seen done.
There is something powerfulabout that for some folks, but
it's not an excuse to hurtpeople.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, no, I agree, and I think there are a lot of
people, especially peoplepleasers or perfectionists, that
they feel like they have to fixit because that's where I spent
my 20s.
And if they can't fix it andthey have to walk away, it's a
failure and that's just not true.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I think it's a failure to stay sometimes in
that sort of relationship,whether it's a friendship, a
family dynamic or a romanticrelationship.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, wasting any more time can be the failure.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yes, you talked about social media earlier and I just
want to touch on that before wego.
I think, and you tell me, it'sactually been more difficult to
create boundaries becauseeveryone is so accessible.
So in your career, becauseyou've been doing this quite
some time, how have you seensocial media affect people,
(22:16):
being able to create boundariesand cut people out or leave
relationships?
How has it affected it and madeit a little bit difficult, more
difficult?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Well, we have the option to still view someone's
life Right Now.
There are some blockers theycan have.
Perhaps they can set theiraccount to private and not
invite anybody with an unknownname, but in many cases people
do have the option to check onus to look at what's going on.
So it can be really hard tostep away from some of those
(22:49):
relationships because it'sconstantly being shown to you.
I mean we can leave socialmedia.
That's certainly, you know, anoption.
I mean we can leave socialmedia that's certainly, you know
, an option.
But it's challenging to seepeople moving on without you
sometimes.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Right.
I remember somebody said to mebecause we all like after a
breakup, we've all done it ofthis still looking and and your
brain doesn't know thedifference, and it's almost like
you're there again if,especially if it was a toxic
relationship.
But I know that it's, you'reright, it's like we've never.
When I grew up, we didn't evenhave social media, so when you
broke up with somebody it wasjust bye, you just didn't walk
(23:26):
down that street anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
And that was the end of that.
But it's just yeah, that isthat is tough and I think it's
the same thing with cuttingfamily members off.
Like I said, you could justleave.
You'd be like, hey, I'm fromDetroit, but I'm moving to
California, your family isn'tgoing to come find you.
It was like, hey, we have anaunt and so-and-so, but now you
(23:51):
could do all sorts of things tofind people and be in contact
with them.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I know.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And keep in touch.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I feel like it's a.
It's more difficult now tocreate these boundaries, but
then even more empowering oncewe do, because there's so many
more steps that we need to takein order to stick up for
ourselves, in a sense.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah, it is a worthy journey for many of us to place
these boundaries in ourrelationships and to figure out
what they need to look out.
Look like, um, there is acontinuum of boundaries.
It's not just cutting peopleoff.
It could be figuring out if youneed to take a step back, if
you need to pause.
Um, is this something you needto revisit, because sometimes
(24:33):
we've cut people off and weactually because again, because
we've changed, maybe we cantolerate the relationship
differently.
That's right.
So that's a consideration aswell, that sometimes we've cut
people off and we didn't havethe tools to deal with them.
And now we have some tools andmaybe we can repair some of
those relationships.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Nedra, we have to have you back on.
I could talk to you for hours.
Anybody who's listening.
I'll have all the contactinformation.
You should follow her onInstagram.
Her three books the one ifyou're dealing with any family
dynamics, drama Free is probablylike the best book to go with.
But also, you have SetBoundaries, find Peace and
Consider this as well, and youhave a Ted talk that I saw.
(25:17):
Um, your website has yourpodcast and your videos and your
Instagram and all of that, butI'll have it all in the show
notes.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Thank you so much, thank you.
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