June 30, 2025 • 45 mins
Dr. Gertrude Lyons turns motherhood on its head with a revolutionary concept: everyone mothers, whether they have biological children or not. Her groundbreaking book "Rewrite the Mother Code" examines how we all conceive, create, and nurture - from creative projects to relationships to our own selves. The profound truth at the heart of this work? The most important person we need to mother is ourselves.
The conversation speaks to women at every life stage - those considering motherhood, those in the thick of raising children, those facing empty nests, and those who've chosen different paths entirely. By expanding our definition of mothering beyond biology, Dr. Lyons invites all women to recognize their nurturing power and turn it inward first. When we mother ourselves with compassion and intention, we transform not just our own lives but everyone we touch.
Ready to rewrite your own mother code? Get Dr. Lyons' book and join a movement that's redefining what it means to mother from the inside out.
Dr. Gertrude Lyons book:
https://www.drgertrudelyons.com/book-rewrite-the-mother-code
Connect with Dr. Gertrude Lyons
https://www.drgertrudelyons.com/
Gertrude Lyons on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/drgertrudelyons?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=dXllYWpzMHEwa3h0
Connect with Sabrina:
https://www.instagram.com/Sabrina_Soto/
www.SabrinaSoto.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Redesigning Life.
I'm your host, sabrina Soto,and this is the space where we
have honest conversations aboutpersonal growth, mindset shifts
and creating a life that feelstruly aligned.
In each episode, I'll talk toexperts in their fields who
share their insights to help youstep into your higher self.
Let's redesign your life fromthe inside out.
Welcome to Redesigning Life.
(00:24):
Today we have a special guest,dr Dr Gertrude Lyons, who just
wrote this amazing book, rewritethe Mother Code.
Gertrude, thank you so much forcoming on the podcast.
I cannot wait to dive deep intothis book and our conversation.
So thank you for being here,sabrina it's a total blessing
(00:44):
and honor.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I was for those of you listening, I was invited to
launch Gertrude's book, thisbeautiful, very intimate dinner
party of amazing women, and itwas such a sacred setting
because it was all of thesewomen and we were having these
conversations, much of whichsurrounded about your book,
(01:09):
which we'll get to in a second.
But what I realized is thatthere is such strength in women
and the core of who we are, andthat's what your book is about.
So I want to start off withquestions, because I was reading
this book and thanks so muchfor not only gifting it to me,
but you sent it to me again.
You say that everyone is amother, whether or not they have
(01:33):
kids, and I have a lot offriends who don't have children.
So how can someone really Idon't know like begin to own the
truth of that, even though theymay not have children
themselves?
Because I have a lot of friendswho feel motherly but kind of
abandon themselves becausethey're not a quote, unquote
mother.
(01:53):
Oh, gosh.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Thanks for jumping right into that one because it's
so core to what I believe in.
One of the I don't know likerevolutionary but at the same
time universally true piecesthat I want to highlight in the
work that I did in writing thatbook and bringing it out there
(02:15):
is that we all mother weconceive, create and give birth
to if we choose children, createand give birth to if we choose
children.
But ideas and dreams andcareers, relationships, pets,
anything we're putting ourcaring, creative, nurturing, but
also mama bear destructive youknow the whole range of like
(02:46):
mother energy into we aremothering, but that the most
important person we need tomother is ourselves.
Yes, so there's, those are kindof the two, two really key
aspects of of the message, and I, I really want it's, it's I
really want it to be a unifyingmessage, because I think, as
women, we've I don't know, it'sjust something we've done to
(03:06):
ourselves.
I'm not blaming patriarchy, I'mnot, you know, blaming, but in
this kind of over masculine,dominated value system that
we're all a part of and adheringto, I think this is something
that could really help breakdown some of those barriers if
we really start owning thismother aspect of ourselves and
(03:27):
then see that commonalityamongst each other, instead of
becoming compartmentalized or,you know, putting ourselves like
, oh, you know, I'm this, I'm amother of children, so now, for
some reason, I'm going to judgewomen who don't make that choice
, or I'm not, you know, or Ithink I don't relate as much,
(03:49):
all the things that like startto happen under that structure.
I really want us to upend.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You've been doing this work a long time, so can,
for those of you like, for thelisteners that maybe aren't so
familiar with your work, can youtalk about the book why you
started it, but really how thisall came about?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, well it's.
I always kind of laugh when Iget that question because, well,
it's my life's journey, right,like it's.
How did it come about?
Was you know, hitting certaininflection points where I had
done, had some life experiencethat I could then reflect on?
Then I could look and see andsay, oh, I started to really,
(04:29):
you know, look kind of straightin the eye like where, where did
I mother myself, where did Ikind of stay connected to myself
, whether that was throughpersonal development, you know,
transformation, all of that, andwhere didn't I?
And noticing that in mymotherhood journey because we
(04:50):
did decide to have children, wehad two daughters that there
were places in there, I feltpretty good about that.
I led the family inconsciousness, raising,
awareness, self-development,until I didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Wait, what do you mean until you didn't?
What did that look like?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah.
So it was something that I wasaware that I was doing, but I
really not.
I didn't want to confront thefact that once I had these two
little children this rocking theboat.
Because you know, when you goon a personal growth journey you
confront things.
You know pain comes up you, youknow it feels risky, like oh,
(05:33):
if I keep going on this I mightreally disrupt something in my
relationship.
And I had been willing to dothat and take whatever you know
chances.
I was.
But suddenly I had these twolittle ones and that felt too
scary to keep doing.
And it wasn't until I reflectedon it later that I realized
just how much I let go of myself.
(05:59):
In the sense of people pleasing,yeah, people pleasing, putting
my kids first, putting myrelationship first, starting to
put myself last, losing myselfand my children, doing some of
the things that they say you'resupposed to and how to do
motherhood right, like gettingmy kids in the right things, and
(06:21):
kind of appeasing myself.
We were doing it moreconsciously, I guess, like doing
this and kind of appeasingmyself.
We were doing it moreconsciously, I guess, but I was.
I had really lost myself in atthis, like juncture right, and
so when I looked back on it Iwas like wow, if, if, it was
this hard for me to stay focusedon my development, my, you know
(06:43):
whether it was growing myselfpersonally, spiritually, in
relationship with my husband,whatever realm that was
happening.
I was a coach.
I was coaching other couples,families.
I was in an environment wherethis should have felt safe.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Right, you're like, if I'm allowing this BS to
happen, what are people whoaren't in this space?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Of course.
So it gave me so much empathyfor just what a challenging job
you know, or what I, what I'masking people to do is is not
easy, because it wasn't easy forme.
Now, some women that I wascoaching were able to like, stay
in it and I got to see how youknow ways that they flourished
(07:27):
because of it and it.
And, yeah, there there weresome risky times and it looked
it was painful at times for them.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So I get it and I think I, the night that we had
met each other, I was.
I got emotional because I wastelling the story of how, you
know, I was raised.
I'm both.
My parents are from Cuba.
Let's especially Latin women,are raised really to put
ourselves last and it wasn'tuntil I sort of flipped the
script.
But I have gotten a lot ofjudgment from other mothers of
(07:56):
doing that.
I judge myself first andforemost, when you just said,
like putting them in thingsthey're supposed to be those,
the sports, the extracurricular,the arts, the, this, the that,
the right camp and if I'm notdoing it, I feel like I am
abandoning her.
And then I feel like I'mabandoning my inner child
because she didn't get all thosenice things.
(08:16):
So it is a very complicatedrelationship, which is why
everybody needs this book.
It's so, it's not easy, it'scomplicated.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
It is, and I'm hoping the book, you know, lends
enough like compassion for whatwe're, what we're, what I'm
proposing, you know, as apossibility, that you know when
we can raise our awareness, whenwe do follow our intuition,
follow, as I, you know, outlinein the book.
You know there's these codesthat just what we're talking
about are what are the mothercodes?
(08:46):
You know this, do it right, putyourself last.
You know, have children,because that's the most
important thing you could do.
Like, all of those are justwired in beliefs.
You know that we've, that we'recomplying with when we tune into
ourselves and can really lookand explore, like, well, what
are my values, what are mydesires?
(09:08):
You know how do I want to dothis motherhood thing and claim
that, no, it's not easy, right,but I can look to that and say,
all right, I'm willing to,because this matters to me in a
way that I've been thoughtfulabout, a way that has meaning to
(09:28):
me.
It gives me strength to facethe negativity, the judgment,
the what do you think you'redoing?
You're not doing it right.
You're not doing it right.
And we don't have to sit thereand say like, well, my and this
(09:49):
isn't about saying, well, my wayis the right way or the better
way.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
No, it's just my way that feels good based on.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
You know, this is discernment.
I'm not talking about like well, I'm just doing it my way
because I don't want to do itthe way my parents did it.
Right, like there's.
I think we all understand thisis taking some work and a little
thoughtfulness, but we can allgo on that journey and armor
ourselves with something that isreally just ours.
Then we're just measuringourselves against and we're not
(10:15):
even really measuring ourselves.
We're reflecting with ourselvesand if we're not meeting our
desires, that's on us, but itisn't something we need to be
ashamed of.
It's just.
Well, I might need more skills,wow, I said I wanted to live
this way, but gosh, I might needto practice this or get
(10:36):
coaching or support in it toactually live it.
But I, you know, I'm going totry.
You know I'm going to like.
I may not be able to do it now,but I love the growth mindset.
Carol Dweck, you know her thisthree letter word, yet right, oh
, I see you, sabrina, doing that.
So instead of judging you forfor following your intuitive
(11:00):
sense and doing it differently,instead of judging you and like
criticizing you, maybe I couldbe curious.
Maybe I could say, like well,I'd kind of like to do that, I
don't know how, yet right.
But we add that, yet I don'tknow how to do that, or that
looks really hard, yet right.
So we throw that in there andthat opens up so many more
(11:21):
possibilities than we just we'rejust, you know.
All that judgment is justself-protection, right?
In a culture that's trying totell us that there's these
impossible standards to try andmeet.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
And yes, exactly, it's impossible.
And just something as small asyesterday.
I woke up and you know it wasthe weekend and I spent a good
20 minutes in my bed.
I got coffee, brought it backup, I journaled, I did my
gratitude journal and Olivia wasawake and she was downstairs
making herself a littlebreakfast and a part of me felt
(11:56):
guilty I should be down theremaking her breakfast.
And I stopped and I allowed itto feel.
And then I realized for therest of the day, because I'd
given myself that time torecalibrate my nervous system, I
was more patient with her, Iwas more present with her, and
it's those little wins that youjust have to go.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
It's a huge win.
Yeah, yes, and I'm fine to callit a little win, but I still
want to like massively celebrateit, because just the fact that
you hit that juncture and didn'tjust reflexively say like I got
to go be with her because we'lldo that, and then we're
abandoning ourselves, rightwe're, we might be uncomfortable
(12:36):
with ourselves, just givingourselves that time.
So it's like I'm going to feelneeded, I'm going to give myself
you know and like go, you know,help her.
Like as if you know and like go, you know, help her.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
By the way, she was fine by herself.
But so take me back to thatpoint when you said that you saw
that you were people pleasingand abandoning yourself, and you
coach people in order to dothis.
So if someone's listening tothis and they feel like they're
losing themselves and theirchildren, how can they begin the
(13:07):
process of reclaimingthemselves in this fog?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, no, that's such a great question, Sabrina.
How did that happen for you too,I'll say.
First, I'll say, like the idealyou know, and and I'm saying
ideal because this is I wishsomebody had noticed it in a
caring sort of way, notjudgmental like you've stopped
(13:32):
growing, you know, I think I mayhave someone may even have said
that to me I wasn't, in someways, also in some respects, the
healthiest growth environmentfor certain reasons.
Right, it was a little harsh and, like you know, like you got to
be doing the hard stuff likeall the time.
So, with compassion, sayinglike you know what you used to
(13:52):
like really, and I think maybesome people, now that I think of
it, a couple of people may haveeven said it that way, yeah,
but I'm still going to say, youknow, listen to that.
And if I could have at anymoment, just like you did with
that urge to go be with yourdaughter, had some curiosity
(14:15):
about it for myself and foundsomeone that I could really
trust to talk about it with, youknow, like I'm I don't want to
admit this because one you knowI'm supposed to be the expert in
doing it you know, poor myself,I'm supposed to be walking the
talk.
I'm not to the level I know I'msomehow making it look like I
(14:36):
am, but I'm not right.
Thank you for acknowledging andbeing honest and transparent
about that 100%, because thereare times, the times I followed,
that intuitive sense like, oh,this is off, or I need to
question this more, or you know,there's something probably
deeper going on here.
And you know, self-reflect,find somebody safe to talk to
(14:58):
about.
Like these, this awareness Idon't know what to do with it.
You know, is this like help meget a reality check here of
(15:19):
what's going on, because I thinkthere would have been?
I just know there would havebeen some really good stuff and
I'm still uncovering, you know,some of the fear that I actually
think.
You know that I've worked onlater in life.
So that's what I want to sayhave compassion.
Like the fact that I got to it10 years later, 15 years later,
I'm still like, yay, I wouldhave liked to have been, you
(15:42):
know, happened in real time atthe time and I let myself have
the feelings of regret andremorse, like, oh, my gosh, what
could have happened for me, ourfamily, if I had done it?
And just like, okay, but Ididn't.
And I can have compassion forthat, but it also fueled me to
do this work and I'm like thisisn't going to go to waste and,
(16:06):
you know, maybe that was thejourney I was supposed to have,
but the fact that I got there atsome point, you know to
acknowledge and not like keep itburied, right, I could have
just been like ooh, oops, youknow, like we'll just kind of
keep going here and pretend thatdidn't happen to happen Because
(16:31):
we are also celebrated for itright?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
So on the outside we are celebrated for abandoning
ourselves for our children andfamily, and I see some of the
moms at school that are thereall the time volunteering and
everybody's like, go, you'reamazing.
And then I look at her and go,gosh, are you okay?
Because we can't do it all.
It's actually impossible.
(16:53):
So it is a tough again subjectbecause we're celebrated for the
same thing.
That's drowning us.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Exactly, exactly, and that's the catch.
This like unrelenting standards, you know that are put on us
that I will say are again moremasculine based, they're outcome
based, they're performancebased.
You know like we're supposed tomeasure, you know ourselves, by
(17:23):
our children's success or likeyou know this like narrow model
of like what, the what fits thebill, of like doing it right,
and so we'll never feel likeaccomplished or we'll always
feel guilty because it's not thestandards.
That would come from a morebalanced, feminine, masculine
standpoint.
(17:44):
Right, cause I'm all for thelike.
You know masculine standpointright, because I'm all for the
like.
You know have expectations, youknow for our kids and you know
kind of push them and you knowchallenge them and let them but
also to have space for process,space to just not fill the whole
summer or, you know, everywaking moment of their days with
(18:05):
activities because we have tobuild their resume right,
exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yesterday, olivia was a whole day nonstop.
We were going to bed and I wastalking to her and she felt
overwhelmed and I said you werejust overstimulated.
Today it was a lot and I feellike everyone's nervous system,
you know, has a time for restbut we are taught like what you
just said you know soccer,volleyball, girl Scouts, boy
Scouts.
It's like, oh my goodness.
(18:31):
So thank you for sharing that.
I also like what does rewritingthe mother code look like for
someone who may have a verycomplicated relationship with
their mother?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Hmm, yeah, no, that's such a beautiful question,
sabrina, because you know what Ireally want to kind of gentle
people into it and how Iintroduce like exploring this in
the book is, you know, in a way, asking people first to like
make agreements, that this isn'tabout blaming our parents, this
(19:08):
isn't about you know, but it isabout being honest and truthful
about what our upbringings looklike, you know, or what we
experienced.
But rather than make it good orbad or you know, kind of just go
to the judging of it to startoff with, if we can reflect and
(19:28):
look back what did I like andwhat did I not like, right.
So there's something aboutdeclaring or, you know,
assessing through like anddislike that takes away some of
the good, bad, you know, andjudgment, and it doesn't mean
you might not still haveemotional stuff come up, you
(19:49):
know, and I invite to go beyondthat like-dislike into you know,
all-out healing from ourrelationships.
But if we can start I don'twant people to feel like they
have to, you know, delve intoevery nook and cranny of the
difficult relationship withtheir mother in order to create
(20:12):
their own.
But some level of exploration,some level of truth telling
about it and you can keep it assurface as you want, just to
start having this experience ofclaiming because that's
something that has been writtenfor so long that we're not
allowed to have our desires.
You know that we're either justsupposed to recreate what our
(20:34):
families did or do the opposite,versus tune into like.
What do I like?
Why do I?
You know?
What do I value?
What am I?
Having women explore what theirdeeper desires are almost feels
like it's a radical act.
right, I just do what I'msupposed to do, sort of thing
(20:56):
you know, with it at first andknow that you don't have to go
super deep into it right away,unless you, you know, unless you
choose to, and still come upwith and something that's really
beautiful for yourself, likeyour mother code, right, and
(21:18):
it's what I'm steeringnavigating people to creating a
statement for themselves thathas some of what they've
declared or decided are thethings that matter to them, that
they value, and those aren'tgoing to be.
I'm keeping, you know, concretethings out of it, like it isn't
.
You know my mother code isn'tto.
(21:39):
You know, lose 10 pounds.
Or, you know, have a perfectbody as I mother.
It's, you know, some assessmentthat's so concrete.
It's more things like oh, youknow I'm a woman who allows and
encourages emotional expression.
You know I'm a woman who tellsthe truth.
(22:00):
You know I'm a woman who valuesconnection and engagement.
You know lives to her fullpotential, has conscious present
in the moment, experiences.
You know things like that thatthen you can orient to in the
choices that you make.
And when you're looking, whenyou have those moments where,
(22:20):
like I'm a terrible mother, youknow like it's something if I
look and it's like, okay, well,how am I doing with this set of
values that I declare matter tome?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
To reframe it all.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
To reframe it for yourself, yeah, and be guided by
that.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I think I mentioned in the beginning of our
conversation that I have a lotof friends who don't have
children really chose not tohave children.
How do you recommend ifsomeone's listening, how do they
explore and embody thatmothering energy in their lives
if they've chosen thatmotherhood is not for them?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah.
So I like that question becauseit allows us to both look at in
some of what we were talkingabout, right, there's mother can
be a very charged word.
Right from our own upbringingsyou know from what we think that
means.
Or we hear the word mother andyou know I'll have so many.
(23:22):
You know women say like well,I'm not a mother.
You know women say like well,I'm not a mother.
And so when I start introducingthis and I just have them share
about you know their lives andwhere they're using their energy
, it's always super easy to makethe parallels.
Now you might want to, you know, talk to a woman who has had
(23:44):
children to like, really tuneinto the parallels.
But I think that's actuallyintuitive wisdom that we know,
right, that when we any, if wehave an idea, and then we start
putting that I like writing abook for me is for me if I
hadn't had children and I wrotethis book, it to me followed
(24:04):
exactly the same path as ashaving right, I conceived of
this idea, I'd been working onit, thought about it, but then
you actually declare that you'regoing to start writing it and
conceive, and then there'sdifferent overlaps.
But I literally swear and itprobably took just as long,
(24:26):
about the same amount of timeexactly from start to finish,
for my first daughter probably,but I, even like, during the
writing of it, gained like babyweight.
You know it was.
I just called it.
I'm feeding for two.
You know I'm feeding for twoduring this, but it's just some
of the emotions that come alongwith it.
(24:46):
And then the vulnerability of,like, when I launched the book
of giving birth to it, like, ohmy gosh, like people are going
to see this, they're going tojudge me, they're going to have,
you know, just like we feelwith our children.
You know, like, oh, I have to,it has to be, but to put it in
the world and let it go Rightand let it go have its own life,
like I can still nurture it andcare for it.
(25:07):
So when, you know, I talk towomen, they've either started
businesses, you know, led teams,you know are in a relationship
with somebody that it might notbe as condensed in a nine month
period that you know, or youknow, created something
artistically.
(25:27):
Anytime we've put something outin the world.
We've cared for a pet, you know, if you look at the whole
trajectory of that journey, it'sa parallel yes, I actually
never thought of that beforethat there is.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
If you are working on a very personal project, it is
the same sort of feelings andthe same steps, and there is a
mothering in that as well.
So, and I think that's why thisbook is so powerful, it's not
just about it's way beyond beinga mother of children it has.
There's so many interwovenrelationships and parallels in
our life that also mimic thosethings you also talked about
(26:09):
earlier.
Like in a culture thatglorifies productivity, they're
very masculine.
How do you learn the value ofnurturing, the value of nesting,
the value of resting, the valueof retreating, when we are very
much living in a masculineculture right now of go, go, go,
being an A-type personality?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
It's kind of like deciding to go on an adventurous
quest, right, like you know,going into new, like uncharted
territory.
You know kind of prepare for it, you know read about it.
And I mean that, like you knowread about women who are doing
this, like look, you know, tosomeone like you like see if
(26:51):
there's role models that aredoing anything like this, but
then understand like, yeah, likethis is this, it is going into
the unknown in some way.
But then if you're doing itintentionally, then when you
have like that first experiencethe first time I did a like a
solo trip vacation, it was aftermy children were grown, you
(27:15):
know I kept saying I wanted todo it.
I never did it.
I ventured out on my own for acouple of days, with no agenda,
nothing like just to be, youknow, with myself, and it was
uncomfortable but also wonderful, right.
So we, we have to start likeand that was a big practice Like
we can start smaller than youknow.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I think I went on a solo trip.
To this day Some of my friendsthink I'm crazy that I went on
vacation by myself.
To me I came up with some of mybest ideas on that vacation.
I made friends that I was outthere, I was with them yesterday
, that I met them in Hawaii, andI do believe and Olivia was
(27:56):
born and I was a mother at thetime and I do believe it's those
moments of putting yourselffirst that make you a much
better mother, friend, sister,daughter, everything.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
That's, I think, what you start to see, right, but
you have to, you know, kind ofbuild a repertoire like you know
.
Do it notice that, like hey,that worked, everybody didn't
die.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Right, like just go on a walk by yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
We want to think we're so needed, right?
No, they can't possibly survivewithout me because, right, like
just going to walk by yourself,you've, right initially, might
feel is selfish orself-mothering, like journal.
What are your beliefs about it?
What do you, what are the worstthings that you think are going
to happen if you do this?
You know, and what are thejudgments you think people are
(28:57):
going to throw your way?
Because they're actuallyjudgments you have of yourself
and you know kind of foretellwhat, what it is and and notice
what those barriers are, andthen then you know, take baby
steps into it.
Maybe it's a cup of tea foryourself, like out right.
Maybe it's deciding to you know, to do something creative or do
(29:22):
some coaching for yourself or,you know, do a sound healing.
I don't know, I'm making up abunch of different things.
No, it's true.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
It could be as small as like having a cup of tea by
yourself in the backyard totaking a walk by yourself, but I
think a lot of women and tellme if this is right, like with
your clients.
Have you seen that sometimes,when the empty nesting happens,
there is this breakdown becauseyou've been needed, you've been
needed, you've been needed andthere's a house full of people
(29:49):
and then all of a sudden itstops and you're like what the F
?
Like who am I now?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, no, it's real and it's really big, sabrina,
and I'm so glad you brought thatone up because I've had friends
, you know, I've noticed even myown transition with it.
I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I have the kind of
career I have.
That can continue beyond.
(30:18):
But, that being said, there's,I think, a way that we need to.
It doesn't mean, you know, forwomen, while you're, if you are
raising children, that you haveto have a job outside the home
or that, so that when they leaveyou have something else, but
that that you have created someof your, something for yourself,
(30:40):
right, some space for yourself,some awareness, or noticing
even, as if someone is doing,you know, full-time mothering.
What are what?
What is the meaning of this foryou?
How are you learning andgrowing?
Like, what is this?
When we go into it, kind ofjust like, oh, this is what I'm
(31:01):
doing, and and then we end upsuddenly at that end with, oh my
gosh, like what do I do now?
You know, and if you haven'tbeen working on your
relationship, if you're in arelationship and you look at
this guy and you're like, oh,it's just you now.
Huh, who are you stranger?
Right, you know you face somestuff I, you know, did and
(31:45):
didn't, you know, bring thegrowth aspect.
So I knew that was somethingmissing that I wanted to bring
back in.
You know, it was okay to do afearless inventory and people
were like, oh, you shouldn'tlook back, it's just all water
under the bridge.
It's like, I think, a healthyreflection to then spur on.
So how do I want it to be goingforward?
(32:06):
I'm putting myself way back inthe equation and I'm really
going to go full out for what Ineed.
And it ruffled my husband'sfeathers, you know.
I think my daughters were farenough along where it wasn't
like you know what's going onwith you, mom, and they were
very supportive.
I don't know, you know I was inschool while my daughter was
(32:30):
still in high school.
So I, I, she may have somefeelings about that, but anyway,
yeah, exactly, we got to havesome some truth telling here,
which we, which we have, youknow.
So there's going to be somereckoning and I think that at
any stage where things changeright, we get to see like, oh, I
saw where I didn't developmyself, we're going to.
(32:52):
Nobody will have done thatperfectly either.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That's right, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
What am I going to need?
And because if you don't dothat, then you're just hanging
around waiting for grandchildren, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
And then you lose yourself again you know you're
right and I, and then you loseyourself again, again.
Exactly, you know, and and thatcan be a beautiful thing to be
a part of you know one of your,your children's children and in
their life.
But we want to do that moremindfully and kind of rewrite
codes of what we thinkgrandmother is supposed to be
and and be in relationship withour now adult son or daughter,
(33:28):
right?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
right.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
About what the dynamic is, instead of making
assumptions.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Also very complicated .
But how can partners sort ofshow up in this new paradigm of
mothering that honors bothstrength and softness in the
mothers that we'd love to be?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah Well, I'm hoping that it gets in the hands of
men as well, right To just kindof understand the complexity,
and they can't have ourexperience, but they can and we
can show up in a way thatinvites them into the
(34:08):
conversation.
If we're just nagging orjudging them or kind of telling
them how they're not there forus or that, that's not really
much of an invitation.
But if we can be clear on ourneeds and our wants with them,
that can start educating themwhen we can step into it fully.
I have found I mean now thatI'm more kind of back in tune
(34:35):
with myself and following.
You know my bliss, so to speak.
I don't know if I'd put itquite that way, but you know,
with writing this book andgetting out there in the world,
I don't think my husband's everadored me more.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Well, I got to tell you that night that I saw you at
dinner.
You were glowing.
It wasn't even like you werewalking around, you were
floating and I'm like who isthis woman?
She's such a badass.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So, yes, you have found your new level.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
You've unlocked a new level, I'm sure, in your life.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Again, I just want to say I'm going to have ups and
downs and there's beenchallenges, and I think that's
just one other thing I want tosay about all this is you don't
do all this, so then everythingis easy and perfect.
It never is, it never is.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Well, I feel the same way.
I've done so muchself-development work.
I went to Hoffman, I've gone totherapy, I've gotten hit in the
head with basil from someshaman in a garage in San
Bernardino.
I mean, I've tried it all and Iwoke up today so happy, super
grateful.
But I'm sure next week I'mgoing to be like F this, f you,
(35:48):
f me, and that's okay.
You know, it's about usingthose tools over and over again
to get yourself back into thefloating.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Exactly Like the other day, but you made those
big investments in yourself andmothered yourself in that way
that now you have a toolkitright that you can draw upon.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Oh, I have a toolkit.
I have a garage full of tools.
I know I have a toolkit.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
I have a garage full of tools.
I know I just have to rememberto use them.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
You know it's funny and that's another story, but
it's funny when you're really inthe depth of like either
anxiety or depression, that eventhough you know the tools, you
don't want to use them.
You know that is actually thekey to success is, even when you
don't want to, it's still usingthem regardless, because they
always work.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, hear, hear.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
But for is, even when you don't want to, it's still
using them regardless becausethey always work.
But for someone who haslistened to this, like who is
this book for who?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
did you write this book for?
I would always run into thischallenge, you know, when a
publisher or like when I wasstarting to write this book,
who's this book for?
Because it was so hard for meto ever say it's for this woman,
right?
Because I would say, overall, Iwrote it for all.
I did write it for all women.
You know, I wanted aspects ofus to be able to, like, see
(36:59):
ourselves and see ourselves inthis mother energy space,
collectively.
Right, I feel like I wrote itfor the collective and for us to
have collective healing, for usto, you know, to really have an
opening to true sisterhood and,you know, break out of the
paradigms that have kept usjudging and separate from each
(37:21):
other and bring together thispowerful force to help heal the
world.
Yes, you know like I did writeit for that and then at the same
time it does tend to, but youknow it's like okay and my
experience was around raisingchildren, you know, and my story
does revolve around, you know,conception and my whole journey
(37:45):
and raising children, so it'svery easy.
Like probably the easiestperson you know you could give
it to is a potential new mom, apregnant woman, you know,
someone thinking about having achild, because that's like so
clear and obvious.
But every time I'm out andabout with this book like I have
so many people and you know somany women that have made a
(38:08):
myriad of choices in motheringthat the book has spoken to and
that's that's really making myheart sing right.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Because, well, I just even how I met you and bringing
those women together, it's,it's exactly what you said.
There's such power in theconnection for women and and
recreating this connection,because I feel like for the last
you know few decades, we'vebeen torn apart.
Before you, you described amoment in Nepal where you, you
(38:37):
received a shamik blessing,obviously, that it catalyzed the
next chapter.
That mystic experience shiftedyou completely as and identity,
not only as a woman but as amother.
Can you because I'm verywoo-woo in a sense like, can you
tell people like what happenedthat day and how that changed
you?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
yeah, no, yeah then.
So the Nepal experience, um,happened like I had gotten two
master's degrees, you know, andI was done with school.
I wasn't, I was just startingto have these realizations of
(39:18):
reflecting and kind of lookingyou know where my mothering
journey had taken me.
So I was really like on thatprecipice of facing that, you
know that truth, really like onthat precipice of facing that,
you know that truth, that truthhadn't fully come out yet, but
something was brewing, you know,for me, and we met with this
(39:39):
just beautiful Nepalese woman,shaman, and I sadly don't
remember her name.
Those things like just kind ofhappened and I'd like to like
name her, but I don't rememberher name.
And you know she spoke and wemet with her and then, you know,
we had the opportunity to kindof sit with her and I was near
(40:03):
her and I was able to like Ican't remember even exactly how
it happened, if we all got achance to hug her and she hugged
everybody, or you know, all Iknow is suddenly I'm in this
woman's arms right and I feltlike I had just been enfolded by
, like the divine feminine, likethe mother.
(40:24):
You know, she carried thatenergy so strongly and I didn't
have words for it in the moment,all I know is, like the
wellspring of pain and emotionand feelings that just came
pouring out.
I just sat in that woman's armsand sobbed, which felt like
(40:46):
hours.
It was probably a minute, youknow, or two, but it was.
All of these things just startedto to come, to begin to come to
focus, and I think there wassomething about that that it, it
gave me this realization that ashift needed to happen, there
was a next level, I needed to go, and that everything would be
(41:06):
okay.
I would, I would be held.
You know, this was going to bescary, it might be hard, but I
could do it, you know, and inthat kind of like powerful
holding, you know, all of thatcame to be, and it was the weird
thing is like, out of that, theconcrete thing that came was I
(41:27):
needed to do my doctorate, Ineeded to study this, but in
that process of studying it, Iwas going to immerse myself in,
you know, the experience that Ihad had and that I was.
That was going to turn meinside out.
I didn't know it at the time.
I thought it was like I need toimprove my critical thinking
(41:47):
and, you know, study this soother women could do it.
And I still kind of thought Ihad done it, in a way that I,
you know, hadn't come to realizeyet.
But it's like she gave me theempowerment, you know, that
loving strength that I couldhold on to, and then when you
have an experience like that, atthose dark or challenging times
(42:10):
, or I wanted to quit or I wasso afraid at various junctures,
through that, I could just goback there and it was like it
was, you know, still it was asreal as I was sitting in her
arms.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I wanted you to share that story because, in what you
had said earlier about creatingthese small communities and
bringing women together, youdon't have to have a shamanic
blessing, you don't have to bein Nepal.
You can create that mother thatbeing held in your own
community and in your ownfriendships, if you allow it and
by allowing it I've noticedit's become you have to be
(42:43):
vulnerable and share and createthat space for the people in
your life.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Oh, you hit the nail on the head, sabrina, it is, it
was.
It's in that people always saylike oh, I broke down, you know
I had a breakdown.
It's like, no, you broke open.
Right, you took the risk toshow your vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
I know, but we are agreeing to not.
Do you remember at dinner whenI started crying and I
apologized?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
immediately, I know, and you're like, don't do that.
No, we got to start givingourselves permission and
celebrating when someone feelssafe enough to allow those tears
and allow our pain to bevisible and, to, you know, cheer
each other on when we do that,hold each other and, you know,
be there.
(43:28):
But also, you know, encouragethe flow.
Right, we really want toencourage that flow with each
other Because, don't you like, Ithink that was what was so
magical about that night, likewe didn't have to spend a lot of
time together and a lot of thewomen didn't know each other
they only knew one other person.
But I feel close to every oneof those women, I mean.
I'm like, oh, I want to like youknow when can we all be
(43:51):
together again?
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, let's do a part two.
For everyone listening, I willput the book in the notes, as
well as Gertrude's Instagram howto get a hold of her.
She does retreats.
She's fabulous and the book isbeautiful.
I love it.
I mean, I love the book.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Thank you, but the cover is so beautiful too, you
know that really mattered andthat's, you know, one of those
feminine values that I wasreally, you know, was going to.
It wasn't ever a fight, becauseKristen, my publisher, was
right with me and she, you know,I think, found we the right
(44:32):
person, came to us and it camebecause I said I, I, I want this
, I want people to read the book.
I think there's, you know, Itried to put together words that
were going to have meaning, as,like, it's a transmission, it's
going to have energy.
I want it to be something thatpeople feel like if it's just
(44:53):
sitting out, it gives thempleasure, right?
I?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
mean look at it everybody.
Did you see the inside?
Yeah, I mean, it's so pretty.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
No, but the jacket.
So if you take away the jacketcover, did you see what's?
Yeah, yeah, she did that for me.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
But I mean, it's so beautiful and it's pretty on the
outside and it's pretty on theinside too, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Thank you, Gertrude.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
A lot of people to judge the book by the cover
right.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
This one's going to be a good one.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Oh my gosh, sabrina, thank you for having me Such a
pleasure.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
What a great, great conversation.
Everyone get the book, Ipromise you you won't regret it.
Welcome to Redesigning Life.
I'm your host, sabrina Soto,and this is the space where we
have honest conversations aboutpersonal growth, mindset shifts
and creating a life that feelstruly aligned.
In each episode, I'll talk toexperts in their fields who
share their insights to help youstep into your higher self.
Let's redesign your life fromthe inside out.
Welcome to Redesigning Life.
(00:24):
Today we have a special guest,dr Dr Gertrude Lyons, who just
wrote this amazing book, rewritethe Mother Code.
Gertrude, thank you so much forcoming on the podcast.
I cannot wait to dive deep intothis book and our conversation.
So thank you for being here,sabrina it's a total blessing
(00:44):
and honor.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I was for those of you listening, I was invited to
launch Gertrude's book, thisbeautiful, very intimate dinner
party of amazing women, and itwas such a sacred setting
because it was all of thesewomen and we were having these
conversations, much of whichsurrounded about your book,
(01:09):
which we'll get to in a second.
But what I realized is thatthere is such strength in women
and the core of who we are, andthat's what your book is about.
So I want to start off withquestions, because I was reading
this book and thanks so muchfor not only gifting it to me,
but you sent it to me again.
You say that everyone is amother, whether or not they have
(01:33):
kids, and I have a lot offriends who don't have children.
So how can someone really Idon't know like begin to own the
truth of that, even though theymay not have children
themselves?
Because I have a lot of friendswho feel motherly but kind of
abandon themselves becausethey're not a quote, unquote
mother.
(01:53):
Oh, gosh.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Thanks for jumping right into that one because it's
so core to what I believe in.
One of the I don't know likerevolutionary but at the same
time universally true piecesthat I want to highlight in the
work that I did in writing thatbook and bringing it out there
(02:15):
is that we all mother weconceive, create and give birth
to if we choose children, createand give birth to if we choose
children.
But ideas and dreams andcareers, relationships, pets,
anything we're putting ourcaring, creative, nurturing, but
also mama bear destructive youknow the whole range of like
(02:46):
mother energy into we aremothering, but that the most
important person we need tomother is ourselves.
Yes, so there's, those are kindof the two, two really key
aspects of of the message, and I, I really want it's, it's I
really want it to be a unifyingmessage, because I think, as
women, we've I don't know, it'sjust something we've done to
(03:06):
ourselves.
I'm not blaming patriarchy, I'mnot, you know, blaming, but in
this kind of over masculine,dominated value system that
we're all a part of and adheringto, I think this is something
that could really help breakdown some of those barriers if
we really start owning thismother aspect of ourselves and
(03:27):
then see that commonalityamongst each other, instead of
becoming compartmentalized or,you know, putting ourselves like
, oh, you know, I'm this, I'm amother of children, so now, for
some reason, I'm going to judgewomen who don't make that choice
, or I'm not, you know, or Ithink I don't relate as much,
(03:49):
all the things that like startto happen under that structure.
I really want us to upend.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You've been doing this work a long time, so can,
for those of you like, for thelisteners that maybe aren't so
familiar with your work, can youtalk about the book why you
started it, but really how thisall came about?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, well it's.
I always kind of laugh when Iget that question because, well,
it's my life's journey, right,like it's.
How did it come about?
Was you know, hitting certaininflection points where I had
done, had some life experiencethat I could then reflect on?
Then I could look and see andsay, oh, I started to really,
(04:29):
you know, look kind of straightin the eye like where, where did
I mother myself, where did Ikind of stay connected to myself
, whether that was throughpersonal development, you know,
transformation, all of that, andwhere didn't I?
And noticing that in mymotherhood journey because we
(04:50):
did decide to have children, wehad two daughters that there
were places in there, I feltpretty good about that.
I led the family inconsciousness, raising,
awareness, self-development,until I didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Wait, what do you mean until you didn't?
What did that look like?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah.
So it was something that I wasaware that I was doing, but I
really not.
I didn't want to confront thefact that once I had these two
little children this rocking theboat.
Because you know, when you goon a personal growth journey you
confront things.
You know pain comes up you, youknow it feels risky, like oh,
(05:33):
if I keep going on this I mightreally disrupt something in my
relationship.
And I had been willing to dothat and take whatever you know
chances.
I was.
But suddenly I had these twolittle ones and that felt too
scary to keep doing.
And it wasn't until I reflectedon it later that I realized
just how much I let go of myself.
(05:59):
In the sense of people pleasing,yeah, people pleasing, putting
my kids first, putting myrelationship first, starting to
put myself last, losing myselfand my children, doing some of
the things that they say you'resupposed to and how to do
motherhood right, like gettingmy kids in the right things, and
(06:21):
kind of appeasing myself.
We were doing it moreconsciously, I guess, like doing
this and kind of appeasingmyself.
We were doing it moreconsciously, I guess, but I was.
I had really lost myself in atthis, like juncture right, and
so when I looked back on it Iwas like wow, if, if, it was
this hard for me to stay focusedon my development, my, you know
(06:43):
whether it was growing myselfpersonally, spiritually, in
relationship with my husband,whatever realm that was
happening.
I was a coach.
I was coaching other couples,families.
I was in an environment wherethis should have felt safe.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Right, you're like, if I'm allowing this BS to
happen, what are people whoaren't in this space?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Of course.
So it gave me so much empathyfor just what a challenging job
you know, or what I, what I'masking people to do is is not
easy, because it wasn't easy forme.
Now, some women that I wascoaching were able to like, stay
in it and I got to see how youknow ways that they flourished
(07:27):
because of it and it.
And, yeah, there there weresome risky times and it looked
it was painful at times for them.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So I get it and I think I, the night that we had
met each other, I was.
I got emotional because I wastelling the story of how, you
know, I was raised.
I'm both.
My parents are from Cuba.
Let's especially Latin women,are raised really to put
ourselves last and it wasn'tuntil I sort of flipped the
script.
But I have gotten a lot ofjudgment from other mothers of
(07:56):
doing that.
I judge myself first andforemost, when you just said,
like putting them in thingsthey're supposed to be those,
the sports, the extracurricular,the arts, the, this, the that,
the right camp and if I'm notdoing it, I feel like I am
abandoning her.
And then I feel like I'mabandoning my inner child
because she didn't get all thosenice things.
(08:16):
So it is a very complicatedrelationship, which is why
everybody needs this book.
It's so, it's not easy, it'scomplicated.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
It is, and I'm hoping the book, you know, lends
enough like compassion for whatwe're, what we're, what I'm
proposing, you know, as apossibility, that you know when
we can raise our awareness, whenwe do follow our intuition,
follow, as I, you know, outlinein the book.
You know there's these codesthat just what we're talking
about are what are the mothercodes?
(08:46):
You know this, do it right, putyourself last.
You know, have children,because that's the most
important thing you could do.
Like, all of those are justwired in beliefs.
You know that we've, that we'recomplying with when we tune into
ourselves and can really lookand explore, like, well, what
are my values, what are mydesires?
(09:08):
You know how do I want to dothis motherhood thing and claim
that, no, it's not easy, right,but I can look to that and say,
all right, I'm willing to,because this matters to me in a
way that I've been thoughtfulabout, a way that has meaning to
(09:28):
me.
It gives me strength to facethe negativity, the judgment,
the what do you think you'redoing?
You're not doing it right.
You're not doing it right.
And we don't have to sit thereand say like, well, my and this
(09:49):
isn't about saying, well, my wayis the right way or the better
way.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
No, it's just my way that feels good based on.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
You know, this is discernment.
I'm not talking about like well, I'm just doing it my way
because I don't want to do itthe way my parents did it.
Right, like there's.
I think we all understand thisis taking some work and a little
thoughtfulness, but we can allgo on that journey and armor
ourselves with something that isreally just ours.
Then we're just measuringourselves against and we're not
(10:15):
even really measuring ourselves.
We're reflecting with ourselvesand if we're not meeting our
desires, that's on us, but itisn't something we need to be
ashamed of.
It's just.
Well, I might need more skills,wow, I said I wanted to live
this way, but gosh, I might needto practice this or get
(10:36):
coaching or support in it toactually live it.
But I, you know, I'm going totry.
You know I'm going to like.
I may not be able to do it now,but I love the growth mindset.
Carol Dweck, you know her thisthree letter word, yet right, oh
, I see you, sabrina, doing that.
So instead of judging you forfor following your intuitive
(11:00):
sense and doing it differently,instead of judging you and like
criticizing you, maybe I couldbe curious.
Maybe I could say, like well,I'd kind of like to do that, I
don't know how, yet right.
But we add that, yet I don'tknow how to do that, or that
looks really hard, yet right.
So we throw that in there andthat opens up so many more
(11:21):
possibilities than we just we'rejust, you know.
All that judgment is justself-protection, right?
In a culture that's trying totell us that there's these
impossible standards to try andmeet.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
And yes, exactly, it's impossible.
And just something as small asyesterday.
I woke up and you know it wasthe weekend and I spent a good
20 minutes in my bed.
I got coffee, brought it backup, I journaled, I did my
gratitude journal and Olivia wasawake and she was downstairs
making herself a littlebreakfast and a part of me felt
(11:56):
guilty I should be down theremaking her breakfast.
And I stopped and I allowed itto feel.
And then I realized for therest of the day, because I'd
given myself that time torecalibrate my nervous system, I
was more patient with her, Iwas more present with her, and
it's those little wins that youjust have to go.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
It's a huge win.
Yeah, yes, and I'm fine to callit a little win, but I still
want to like massively celebrateit, because just the fact that
you hit that juncture and didn'tjust reflexively say like I got
to go be with her because we'lldo that, and then we're
abandoning ourselves, rightwe're, we might be uncomfortable
(12:36):
with ourselves, just givingourselves that time.
So it's like I'm going to feelneeded, I'm going to give myself
you know and like go, you know,help her.
Like as if you know and like go, you know, help her.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
By the way, she was fine by herself.
But so take me back to thatpoint when you said that you saw
that you were people pleasingand abandoning yourself, and you
coach people in order to dothis.
So if someone's listening tothis and they feel like they're
losing themselves and theirchildren, how can they begin the
(13:07):
process of reclaimingthemselves in this fog?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, no, that's such a great question, Sabrina.
How did that happen for you too,I'll say.
First, I'll say, like the idealyou know, and and I'm saying
ideal because this is I wishsomebody had noticed it in a
caring sort of way, notjudgmental like you've stopped
(13:32):
growing, you know, I think I mayhave someone may even have said
that to me I wasn't, in someways, also in some respects, the
healthiest growth environmentfor certain reasons.
Right, it was a little harsh and, like you know, like you got to
be doing the hard stuff likeall the time.
So, with compassion, sayinglike you know what you used to
(13:52):
like really, and I think maybesome people, now that I think of
it, a couple of people may haveeven said it that way, yeah,
but I'm still going to say, youknow, listen to that.
And if I could have at anymoment, just like you did with
that urge to go be with yourdaughter, had some curiosity
(14:15):
about it for myself and foundsomeone that I could really
trust to talk about it with, youknow, like I'm I don't want to
admit this because one you knowI'm supposed to be the expert in
doing it you know, poor myself,I'm supposed to be walking the
talk.
I'm not to the level I know I'msomehow making it look like I
(14:36):
am, but I'm not right.
Thank you for acknowledging andbeing honest and transparent
about that 100%, because thereare times, the times I followed,
that intuitive sense like, oh,this is off, or I need to
question this more, or you know,there's something probably
deeper going on here.
And you know, self-reflect,find somebody safe to talk to
(14:58):
about.
Like these, this awareness Idon't know what to do with it.
You know, is this like help meget a reality check here of
(15:19):
what's going on, because I thinkthere would have been?
I just know there would havebeen some really good stuff and
I'm still uncovering, you know,some of the fear that I actually
think.
You know that I've worked onlater in life.
So that's what I want to sayhave compassion.
Like the fact that I got to it10 years later, 15 years later,
I'm still like, yay, I wouldhave liked to have been, you
(15:42):
know, happened in real time atthe time and I let myself have
the feelings of regret andremorse, like, oh, my gosh, what
could have happened for me, ourfamily, if I had done it?
And just like, okay, but Ididn't.
And I can have compassion forthat, but it also fueled me to
do this work and I'm like thisisn't going to go to waste and,
(16:06):
you know, maybe that was thejourney I was supposed to have,
but the fact that I got there atsome point, you know to
acknowledge and not like keep itburied, right, I could have
just been like ooh, oops, youknow, like we'll just kind of
keep going here and pretend thatdidn't happen to happen Because
(16:31):
we are also celebrated for itright?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
So on the outside we are celebrated for abandoning
ourselves for our children andfamily, and I see some of the
moms at school that are thereall the time volunteering and
everybody's like, go, you'reamazing.
And then I look at her and go,gosh, are you okay?
Because we can't do it all.
It's actually impossible.
(16:53):
So it is a tough again subjectbecause we're celebrated for the
same thing.
That's drowning us.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Exactly, exactly, and that's the catch.
This like unrelenting standards, you know that are put on us
that I will say are again moremasculine based, they're outcome
based, they're performancebased.
You know like we're supposed tomeasure, you know ourselves, by
(17:23):
our children's success or likeyou know this like narrow model
of like what, the what fits thebill, of like doing it right,
and so we'll never feel likeaccomplished or we'll always
feel guilty because it's not thestandards.
That would come from a morebalanced, feminine, masculine
standpoint.
(17:44):
Right, cause I'm all for thelike.
You know masculine standpointright, because I'm all for the
like.
You know have expectations, youknow for our kids and you know
kind of push them and you knowchallenge them and let them but
also to have space for process,space to just not fill the whole
summer or, you know, everywaking moment of their days with
(18:05):
activities because we have tobuild their resume right,
exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yesterday, olivia was a whole day nonstop.
We were going to bed and I wastalking to her and she felt
overwhelmed and I said you werejust overstimulated.
Today it was a lot and I feellike everyone's nervous system,
you know, has a time for restbut we are taught like what you
just said you know soccer,volleyball, girl Scouts, boy
Scouts.
It's like, oh my goodness.
(18:31):
So thank you for sharing that.
I also like what does rewritingthe mother code look like for
someone who may have a verycomplicated relationship with
their mother?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Hmm, yeah, no, that's such a beautiful question,
sabrina, because you know what Ireally want to kind of gentle
people into it and how Iintroduce like exploring this in
the book is, you know, in a way, asking people first to like
make agreements, that this isn'tabout blaming our parents, this
(19:08):
isn't about you know, but it isabout being honest and truthful
about what our upbringings looklike, you know, or what we
experienced.
But rather than make it good orbad or you know, kind of just go
to the judging of it to startoff with, if we can reflect and
(19:28):
look back what did I like andwhat did I not like, right.
So there's something aboutdeclaring or, you know,
assessing through like anddislike that takes away some of
the good, bad, you know, andjudgment, and it doesn't mean
you might not still haveemotional stuff come up, you
(19:49):
know, and I invite to go beyondthat like-dislike into you know,
all-out healing from ourrelationships.
But if we can start I don'twant people to feel like they
have to, you know, delve intoevery nook and cranny of the
difficult relationship withtheir mother in order to create
(20:12):
their own.
But some level of exploration,some level of truth telling
about it and you can keep it assurface as you want, just to
start having this experience ofclaiming because that's
something that has been writtenfor so long that we're not
allowed to have our desires.
You know that we're either justsupposed to recreate what our
(20:34):
families did or do the opposite,versus tune into like.
What do I like?
Why do I?
You know?
What do I value?
What am I?
Having women explore what theirdeeper desires are almost feels
like it's a radical act.
right, I just do what I'msupposed to do, sort of thing
(20:56):
you know, with it at first andknow that you don't have to go
super deep into it right away,unless you, you know, unless you
choose to, and still come upwith and something that's really
beautiful for yourself, likeyour mother code, right, and
(21:18):
it's what I'm steeringnavigating people to creating a
statement for themselves thathas some of what they've
declared or decided are thethings that matter to them, that
they value, and those aren'tgoing to be.
I'm keeping, you know, concretethings out of it, like it isn't
.
You know my mother code isn'tto.
(21:39):
You know, lose 10 pounds.
Or, you know, have a perfectbody as I mother.
It's, you know, some assessmentthat's so concrete.
It's more things like oh, youknow I'm a woman who allows and
encourages emotional expression.
You know I'm a woman who tellsthe truth.
(22:00):
You know I'm a woman who valuesconnection and engagement.
You know lives to her fullpotential, has conscious present
in the moment, experiences.
You know things like that thatthen you can orient to in the
choices that you make.
And when you're looking, whenyou have those moments where,
(22:20):
like I'm a terrible mother, youknow like it's something if I
look and it's like, okay, well,how am I doing with this set of
values that I declare matter tome?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
To reframe it all.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
To reframe it for yourself, yeah, and be guided by
that.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I think I mentioned in the beginning of our
conversation that I have a lotof friends who don't have
children really chose not tohave children.
How do you recommend ifsomeone's listening, how do they
explore and embody thatmothering energy in their lives
if they've chosen thatmotherhood is not for them?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Yeah.
So I like that question becauseit allows us to both look at in
some of what we were talkingabout, right, there's mother can
be a very charged word.
Right from our own upbringingsyou know from what we think that
means.
Or we hear the word mother andyou know I'll have so many.
(23:22):
You know women say like well,I'm not a mother.
You know women say like well,I'm not a mother.
And so when I start introducingthis and I just have them share
about you know their lives andwhere they're using their energy
, it's always super easy to makethe parallels.
Now you might want to, you know, talk to a woman who has had
(23:44):
children to like, really tuneinto the parallels.
But I think that's actuallyintuitive wisdom that we know,
right, that when we any, if wehave an idea, and then we start
putting that I like writing abook for me is for me if I
hadn't had children and I wrotethis book, it to me followed
(24:04):
exactly the same path as ashaving right, I conceived of
this idea, I'd been working onit, thought about it, but then
you actually declare that you'regoing to start writing it and
conceive, and then there'sdifferent overlaps.
But I literally swear and itprobably took just as long,
(24:26):
about the same amount of timeexactly from start to finish,
for my first daughter probably,but I, even like, during the
writing of it, gained like babyweight.
You know it was.
I just called it.
I'm feeding for two.
You know I'm feeding for twoduring this, but it's just some
of the emotions that come alongwith it.
(24:46):
And then the vulnerability of,like, when I launched the book
of giving birth to it, like, ohmy gosh, like people are going
to see this, they're going tojudge me, they're going to have,
you know, just like we feelwith our children.
You know, like, oh, I have to,it has to be, but to put it in
the world and let it go Rightand let it go have its own life,
like I can still nurture it andcare for it.
(25:07):
So when, you know, I talk towomen, they've either started
businesses, you know, led teams,you know are in a relationship
with somebody that it might notbe as condensed in a nine month
period that you know, or youknow, created something
artistically.
(25:27):
Anytime we've put something outin the world.
We've cared for a pet, you know, if you look at the whole
trajectory of that journey, it'sa parallel yes, I actually
never thought of that beforethat there is.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
If you are working on a very personal project, it is
the same sort of feelings andthe same steps, and there is a
mothering in that as well.
So, and I think that's why thisbook is so powerful, it's not
just about it's way beyond beinga mother of children it has.
There's so many interwovenrelationships and parallels in
our life that also mimic thosethings you also talked about
(26:09):
earlier.
Like in a culture thatglorifies productivity, they're
very masculine.
How do you learn the value ofnurturing, the value of nesting,
the value of resting, the valueof retreating, when we are very
much living in a masculineculture right now of go, go, go,
being an A-type personality?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
It's kind of like deciding to go on an adventurous
quest, right, like you know,going into new, like uncharted
territory.
You know kind of prepare for it, you know read about it.
And I mean that, like you knowread about women who are doing
this, like look, you know, tosomeone like you like see if
(26:51):
there's role models that aredoing anything like this, but
then understand like, yeah, likethis is this, it is going into
the unknown in some way.
But then if you're doing itintentionally, then when you
have like that first experiencethe first time I did a like a
solo trip vacation, it was aftermy children were grown, you
(27:15):
know I kept saying I wanted todo it.
I never did it.
I ventured out on my own for acouple of days, with no agenda,
nothing like just to be, youknow, with myself, and it was
uncomfortable but also wonderful, right.
So we, we have to start likeand that was a big practice Like
we can start smaller than youknow.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I think I went on a solo trip.
To this day Some of my friendsthink I'm crazy that I went on
vacation by myself.
To me I came up with some of mybest ideas on that vacation.
I made friends that I was outthere, I was with them yesterday
, that I met them in Hawaii, andI do believe and Olivia was
(27:56):
born and I was a mother at thetime and I do believe it's those
moments of putting yourselffirst that make you a much
better mother, friend, sister,daughter, everything.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
That's, I think, what you start to see, right, but
you have to, you know, kind ofbuild a repertoire like you know
.
Do it notice that, like hey,that worked, everybody didn't
die.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Right, like just go on a walk by yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
We want to think we're so needed, right?
No, they can't possibly survivewithout me because, right, like
just going to walk by yourself,you've, right initially, might
feel is selfish orself-mothering, like journal.
What are your beliefs about it?
What do you, what are the worstthings that you think are going
to happen if you do this?
You know, and what are thejudgments you think people are
(28:57):
going to throw your way?
Because they're actuallyjudgments you have of yourself
and you know kind of foretellwhat, what it is and and notice
what those barriers are, andthen then you know, take baby
steps into it.
Maybe it's a cup of tea foryourself, like out right.
Maybe it's deciding to you know, to do something creative or do
(29:22):
some coaching for yourself or,you know, do a sound healing.
I don't know, I'm making up abunch of different things.
No, it's true.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
It could be as small as like having a cup of tea by
yourself in the backyard totaking a walk by yourself, but I
think a lot of women and tellme if this is right, like with
your clients.
Have you seen that sometimes,when the empty nesting happens,
there is this breakdown becauseyou've been needed, you've been
needed, you've been needed andthere's a house full of people
(29:49):
and then all of a sudden itstops and you're like what the F
?
Like who am I now?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, no, it's real and it's really big, sabrina,
and I'm so glad you brought thatone up because I've had friends
, you know, I've noticed even myown transition with it.
I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I have the kind of
career I have.
That can continue beyond.
(30:18):
But, that being said, there's,I think, a way that we need to.
It doesn't mean, you know, forwomen, while you're, if you are
raising children, that you haveto have a job outside the home
or that, so that when they leaveyou have something else, but
that that you have created someof your, something for yourself,
(30:40):
right, some space for yourself,some awareness, or noticing
even, as if someone is doing,you know, full-time mothering.
What are what?
What is the meaning of this foryou?
How are you learning andgrowing?
Like, what is this?
When we go into it, kind ofjust like, oh, this is what I'm
(31:01):
doing, and and then we end upsuddenly at that end with, oh my
gosh, like what do I do now?
You know, and if you haven'tbeen working on your
relationship, if you're in arelationship and you look at
this guy and you're like, oh,it's just you now.
Huh, who are you stranger?
Right, you know you face somestuff I, you know, did and
(31:45):
didn't, you know, bring thegrowth aspect.
So I knew that was somethingmissing that I wanted to bring
back in.
You know, it was okay to do afearless inventory and people
were like, oh, you shouldn'tlook back, it's just all water
under the bridge.
It's like, I think, a healthyreflection to then spur on.
So how do I want it to be goingforward?
(32:06):
I'm putting myself way back inthe equation and I'm really
going to go full out for what Ineed.
And it ruffled my husband'sfeathers, you know.
I think my daughters were farenough along where it wasn't
like you know what's going onwith you, mom, and they were
very supportive.
I don't know, you know I was inschool while my daughter was
(32:30):
still in high school.
So I, I, she may have somefeelings about that, but anyway,
yeah, exactly, we got to havesome some truth telling here,
which we, which we have, youknow.
So there's going to be somereckoning and I think that at
any stage where things changeright, we get to see like, oh, I
saw where I didn't developmyself, we're going to.
(32:52):
Nobody will have done thatperfectly either.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That's right, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
What am I going to need?
And because if you don't dothat, then you're just hanging
around waiting for grandchildren, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
And then you lose yourself again you know you're
right and I, and then you loseyourself again, again.
Exactly, you know, and and thatcan be a beautiful thing to be
a part of you know one of your,your children's children and in
their life.
But we want to do that moremindfully and kind of rewrite
codes of what we thinkgrandmother is supposed to be
and and be in relationship withour now adult son or daughter,
(33:28):
right?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
right.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
About what the dynamic is, instead of making
assumptions.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Also very complicated .
But how can partners sort ofshow up in this new paradigm of
mothering that honors bothstrength and softness in the
mothers that we'd love to be?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah Well, I'm hoping that it gets in the hands of
men as well, right To just kindof understand the complexity,
and they can't have ourexperience, but they can and we
can show up in a way thatinvites them into the
(34:08):
conversation.
If we're just nagging orjudging them or kind of telling
them how they're not there forus or that, that's not really
much of an invitation.
But if we can be clear on ourneeds and our wants with them,
that can start educating themwhen we can step into it fully.
I have found I mean now thatI'm more kind of back in tune
(34:35):
with myself and following.
You know my bliss, so to speak.
I don't know if I'd put itquite that way, but you know,
with writing this book andgetting out there in the world,
I don't think my husband's everadored me more.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Well, I got to tell you that night that I saw you at
dinner.
You were glowing.
It wasn't even like you werewalking around, you were
floating and I'm like who isthis woman?
She's such a badass.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
So, yes, you have found your new level.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
You've unlocked a new level, I'm sure, in your life.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Again, I just want to say I'm going to have ups and
downs and there's beenchallenges, and I think that's
just one other thing I want tosay about all this is you don't
do all this, so then everythingis easy and perfect.
It never is, it never is.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Well, I feel the same way.
I've done so muchself-development work.
I went to Hoffman, I've gone totherapy, I've gotten hit in the
head with basil from someshaman in a garage in San
Bernardino.
I mean, I've tried it all and Iwoke up today so happy, super
grateful.
But I'm sure next week I'mgoing to be like F this, f you,
(35:48):
f me, and that's okay.
You know, it's about usingthose tools over and over again
to get yourself back into thefloating.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Exactly Like the other day, but you made those
big investments in yourself andmothered yourself in that way
that now you have a toolkitright that you can draw upon.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Oh, I have a toolkit.
I have a garage full of tools.
I know I have a toolkit.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
I have a garage full of tools.
I know I just have to rememberto use them.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
You know it's funny and that's another story, but
it's funny when you're really inthe depth of like either
anxiety or depression, that eventhough you know the tools, you
don't want to use them.
You know that is actually thekey to success is, even when you
don't want to, it's still usingthem regardless, because they
always work.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, hear, hear.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
But for is, even when you don't want to, it's still
using them regardless becausethey always work.
But for someone who haslistened to this, like who is
this book for who?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
did you write this book for?
I would always run into thischallenge, you know, when a
publisher or like when I wasstarting to write this book,
who's this book for?
Because it was so hard for meto ever say it's for this woman,
right?
Because I would say, overall, Iwrote it for all.
I did write it for all women.
You know, I wanted aspects ofus to be able to, like, see
(36:59):
ourselves and see ourselves inthis mother energy space,
collectively.
Right, I feel like I wrote itfor the collective and for us to
have collective healing, for usto, you know, to really have an
opening to true sisterhood and,you know, break out of the
paradigms that have kept usjudging and separate from each
(37:21):
other and bring together thispowerful force to help heal the
world.
Yes, you know like I did writeit for that and then at the same
time it does tend to, but youknow it's like okay and my
experience was around raisingchildren, you know, and my story
does revolve around, you know,conception and my whole journey
(37:45):
and raising children, so it'svery easy.
Like probably the easiestperson you know you could give
it to is a potential new mom, apregnant woman, you know,
someone thinking about having achild, because that's like so
clear and obvious.
But every time I'm out andabout with this book like I have
so many people and you know somany women that have made a
(38:08):
myriad of choices in motheringthat the book has spoken to and
that's that's really making myheart sing right.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Because, well, I just even how I met you and bringing
those women together, it's,it's exactly what you said.
There's such power in theconnection for women and and
recreating this connection,because I feel like for the last
you know few decades, we'vebeen torn apart.
Before you, you described amoment in Nepal where you, you
(38:37):
received a shamik blessing,obviously, that it catalyzed the
next chapter.
That mystic experience shiftedyou completely as and identity,
not only as a woman but as amother.
Can you because I'm verywoo-woo in a sense like, can you
tell people like what happenedthat day and how that changed
you?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
yeah, no, yeah then.
So the Nepal experience, um,happened like I had gotten two
master's degrees, you know, andI was done with school.
I wasn't, I was just startingto have these realizations of
(39:18):
reflecting and kind of lookingyou know where my mothering
journey had taken me.
So I was really like on thatprecipice of facing that, you
know that truth, really like onthat precipice of facing that,
you know that truth, that truthhadn't fully come out yet, but
something was brewing, you know,for me, and we met with this
(39:39):
just beautiful Nepalese woman,shaman, and I sadly don't
remember her name.
Those things like just kind ofhappened and I'd like to like
name her, but I don't rememberher name.
And you know she spoke and wemet with her and then, you know,
we had the opportunity to kindof sit with her and I was near
(40:03):
her and I was able to like Ican't remember even exactly how
it happened, if we all got achance to hug her and she hugged
everybody, or you know, all Iknow is suddenly I'm in this
woman's arms right and I feltlike I had just been enfolded by
, like the divine feminine, likethe mother.
(40:24):
You know, she carried thatenergy so strongly and I didn't
have words for it in the moment,all I know is, like the
wellspring of pain and emotionand feelings that just came
pouring out.
I just sat in that woman's armsand sobbed, which felt like
(40:46):
hours.
It was probably a minute, youknow, or two, but it was.
All of these things just startedto to come, to begin to come to
focus, and I think there wassomething about that that it, it
gave me this realization that ashift needed to happen, there
was a next level, I needed to go, and that everything would be
(41:06):
okay.
I would, I would be held.
You know, this was going to bescary, it might be hard, but I
could do it, you know, and inthat kind of like powerful
holding, you know, all of thatcame to be, and it was the weird
thing is like, out of that, theconcrete thing that came was I
(41:27):
needed to do my doctorate, Ineeded to study this, but in
that process of studying it, Iwas going to immerse myself in,
you know, the experience that Ihad had and that I was.
That was going to turn meinside out.
I didn't know it at the time.
I thought it was like I need toimprove my critical thinking
(41:47):
and, you know, study this soother women could do it.
And I still kind of thought Ihad done it, in a way that I,
you know, hadn't come to realizeyet.
But it's like she gave me theempowerment, you know, that
loving strength that I couldhold on to, and then when you
have an experience like that, atthose dark or challenging times
(42:10):
, or I wanted to quit or I wasso afraid at various junctures,
through that, I could just goback there and it was like it
was, you know, still it was asreal as I was sitting in her
arms.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
I wanted you to share that story because, in what you
had said earlier about creatingthese small communities and
bringing women together, youdon't have to have a shamanic
blessing, you don't have to bein Nepal.
You can create that mother thatbeing held in your own
community and in your ownfriendships, if you allow it and
by allowing it I've noticedit's become you have to be
(42:43):
vulnerable and share and createthat space for the people in
your life.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Oh, you hit the nail on the head, sabrina, it is, it
was.
It's in that people always saylike oh, I broke down, you know
I had a breakdown.
It's like, no, you broke open.
Right, you took the risk toshow your vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
I know, but we are agreeing to not.
Do you remember at dinner whenI started crying and I
apologized?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
immediately, I know, and you're like, don't do that.
No, we got to start givingourselves permission and
celebrating when someone feelssafe enough to allow those tears
and allow our pain to bevisible and, to, you know, cheer
each other on when we do that,hold each other and, you know,
be there.
(43:28):
But also, you know, encouragethe flow.
Right, we really want toencourage that flow with each
other Because, don't you like, Ithink that was what was so
magical about that night, likewe didn't have to spend a lot of
time together and a lot of thewomen didn't know each other
they only knew one other person.
But I feel close to every oneof those women, I mean.
I'm like, oh, I want to like youknow when can we all be
(43:51):
together again?
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, let's do a part two.
For everyone listening, I willput the book in the notes, as
well as Gertrude's Instagram howto get a hold of her.
She does retreats.
She's fabulous and the book isbeautiful.
I love it.
I mean, I love the book.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Thank you, but the cover is so beautiful too, you
know that really mattered andthat's, you know, one of those
feminine values that I wasreally, you know, was going to.
It wasn't ever a fight, becauseKristen, my publisher, was
right with me and she, you know,I think, found we the right
(44:32):
person, came to us and it camebecause I said I, I, I want this
, I want people to read the book.
I think there's, you know, Itried to put together words that
were going to have meaning, as,like, it's a transmission, it's
going to have energy.
I want it to be something thatpeople feel like if it's just
(44:53):
sitting out, it gives thempleasure, right?
I?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
mean look at it everybody.
Did you see the inside?
Yeah, I mean, it's so pretty.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
No, but the jacket.
So if you take away the jacketcover, did you see what's?
Yeah, yeah, she did that for me.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
But I mean, it's so beautiful and it's pretty on the
outside and it's pretty on theinside too, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Thank you, Gertrude.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
A lot of people to judge the book by the cover
right.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
This one's going to be a good one.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Oh my gosh, sabrina, thank you for having me Such a
pleasure.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
What a great, great conversation.
Everyone get the book, Ipromise you you won't regret it.
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