All Episodes

August 18, 2025 40 mins

In this conversation, author Sarah Rusbatch takes us beyond the outdated "alcoholic or not" binary into the nuanced territory of gray area drinking. Sarah Rusbatch shares her personal journey from being "Sarah the party girl" to embracing an alcohol-free lifestyle that brought more joy, better health, and authentic connections.

The conversation dismantles the cultural messaging that's normalized drinking for women, and what Sarah calls the "wine mom" culture where alcohol is presented as the solution to parenting stress, work pressure, and life's challenges. 

Ready to explore life beyond alcohol? Connect with Sarah's online community and discover how redefining fun might be the key to creating the life you truly want.


Connect with Sarah Rusbatch

https://sarahrusbatch.com/

Sarah Rusbatch on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/sarahrusbatch/

Sarah on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/sarahrusbatchcoach


Connect with Sabrina:

https://www.instagram.com/Sabrina_Soto/

www.SabrinaSoto.com

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Redesigning Life.
I'm your host, Sabrina Soto,and this is the space where we
have honest conversations aboutpersonal growth, mindset shifts
and creating a life that feelstruly aligned.
In each episode, I'll talk toexperts in their fields who
share their insights to help youstep into your higher self.
Let's redesign your life fromthe inside out.
Welcome to another episode ofRedesigning Life.

(00:25):
This week is special.
I have author Sarah Rusbach on.
She wrote a book that I reallylove called Beyond Booze, so I
want to thank you so muchbecause I know you are far, far
far away from California inAustralia, so I thank you for
taking the time to speak to meand my listeners.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you so much for having me, sabrina.
It's always a joy to speak tomy friends on the other side of
the world and to be able toshare more.
And you can probably hear frommy accent I'm from the UK.
I live in Australia.
I still really want to come toCalifornia.
That's in my dream.
I'll look you up the next timethat I get over there.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
That's in my dream, I'll look you up the next time
that I get over there, please do.
I'll put that in my wishes thatyou come and we can meet in
person.
So I want to really dive deepinto this book, and the reason
why I reached out to you and Itold you in the email is in all
of the podcasts that I've doneover 100 episodes I've had
amazing guests, but the mostdownloaded episode is Holly

(01:24):
Whitaker and she wrote Quit Likea Woman, and I think it's
because this topic is hot rightnow.
But it also speaks to a lot ofpeople, especially women,
especially in menopause, and Ithink a lot of people are trying
to figure out how alcohol fitsin their life and, if it does,
and what life looks likeafterwards, and that's what your

(01:46):
book talks about.
So can you give listeners alittle bit of background of who
you are and why you started onthis journey?

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, so I'm a gray area drinking coach and I am an
ex-gray area drinker, and thatmight be a topic that some of
your listeners have not heardbefore.
It might be a name gray areadrinking what on earth is that?
And it's a relatively new ideaaround alcohol use, and so

(02:15):
before we used to have this ideathat you were an alcoholic or
you weren't.
I'm 49 years old.
I grew up with Dallas.
My idea of an alcoholic was SueEllen, who was in her silk
lingerie all day drinking hardliquor out of a bottle, lying
around on the sofa, couldn't doanything and adult Sarah was
like well, I'm not Sue Ellen.
I don't drink hard liquor allday and don't have a job and

(02:36):
can't go to look after my kids.
I'm not that, so I can't be analcoholic.
But I also knew that mydrinking wasn't healthy, it
wasn't serving me, it was takingmore than it was giving and it
was starting to have a negativeimpact on my life.
But I didn't know what I was orwhat my label was or anything,
and because I didn't fit thatcriteria for dependence, for

(02:58):
needing to go to rehab, forneeding to have medical support
to stop drinking, I just kind ofthought well, well, I'm just a
big social drinker and therefore, because I don't have a problem
, I should just be able to stopwhen I've decided that I've had
enough.
But the problem was I couldnever just stop when I decided
I'd had enough.
I played Russian roulette withalcohol for a really, really

(03:20):
long time, where some nights itwould be yeah, I'll just have
one or two, but some nights itwas like the wheels came off.
I didn't know how I got home.
There were just lots of littlered flags that started happening
, and I think that's the thingfor grey area drinkers there's
often not a massive rock bottommoment, but there's lots of
little red flags that just keeppopping up where we start to

(03:43):
question our relationship withalcohol.
So that maybe sets the scenefor what gray area drinking
actually is.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, and I think that there is also a new layer
too with menopause, and we'llget to that later.
But when it comes to gray areadrinking, I think there's
probably people, especiallywomen, listening to this that
can say, yeah, I kind of seemyself in that, that you know,
sometimes I say the wrong thing.
I say that you know I actfoolish, but like I never not

(04:12):
know how I got home and I neverhave gotten in trouble because
of it.
So you know, maybe I'll justdrink every weekend and I won't
drink during the week.
And then you start with theserules.
So what do you say to the womanwho feels like maybe it doesn't
belong in their life, but it'snot creating a problem?

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah.
So I think gray area drinkingto me is a scale right, say
you've got a scale of one to 10.
One is someone who doesn'tdrink.
10 is someone with physicaldependency on alcohol who needs
medical support to safelywithdraw from alcohol.
Grey area drinking is about afour to an eight on that scale.
So we've passed the point ofbeing a take it or leave it

(04:51):
drinker, which basically meanswe've passed the point of just
not caring if alcohol is in ourlife anymore.
We're using it for something.
It might be we don't drinkduring the week, but the thought
of going to Friday night drinkswith the girls and not drinking
is like oh gosh.
No, I can't possibly do that.
So we're starting to move intothat territory where we have

(05:11):
associations with it.
Maybe it's our stress reliever,maybe it's what we use for
helping if we've got a bit ofsocial anxiety.
Maybe it's what we turn to whenwe've had an argument with our
husband, when our kids are doingour head in, when everything
just feels too much.
We've had an argument with ourhusband.
When our kids are doing ourhead in, when everything just
feels too much, it's I need adrink.
It's that solution comes in theform of alcohol and some of the
signs that you're a gray areadrinker would be you make rules

(05:34):
around your drinking, but youoften find a reason to justify
breaking those rules.
So for me it was I don't drinkduring the week.
Monday, tuesday, wednesdaydefinitely don't drink.
Thursday was kind of hit andmiss, and then it would be
Wednesday and then it would be Ireally fancy a drink.
So then the internal chatterwould start oh, I really fancy
having a drink tonight, but it'sWednesday and I'm not supposed

(05:54):
to have a drink.
Well, maybe if I have a drinktonight, I could not have one
tomorrow.
So I'll have tomorrow's drinktonight.
And then, going back, it'sstarting to take up headspace
where we've got this chatter andpeople that are not grey area
drinkers.
They don't have the chatterabout alcohol, they're just kind
of like do I fancy a drink?
Do I not fancy a drink?
Don't care, it just doesn'ttake up that headspace.

(06:15):
Some of the other signs thatyou're a grey area drinker would
be you often drink more thanyou intended to.
I'm just going to have one.
Usually ends up being two,three, four.
You have started to notice thatalcohol is negatively impacting
you, but you make plans tochange that and you're like, oh,
I'm not going to drink thisweek.
I've had a big boozy weekend,I'm going to take this week off

(06:37):
and maybe you manage that.
Monday, tuesday, wednesday, butthen by Thursday lunchtime
you're out with the girls.
Someone says, do you want todrink?
And you're out with the girls.
Someone says, do you want adrink?
And you're like, oh yeah.
So the plans and those goals tostay stopped or to create a
break, they only last for ashort amount of time and then,
as soon as we start feelingbetter again, and those
reminders of the anxiety and thetiredness and feeling rubbish,
it's all kind of gone out thewindow and we're like, oh yeah,

(06:58):
now fine, I can just have aproblem with alcohol.
So, for gray area drinkers, wetend to surround ourselves with
other gray area drinkers.
So therefore you're in thiskind of circle of going.
Well, I don't have a problembecause I drink like Sabrina
does and I drink like she doesand she does, and we all drink

(07:20):
the same, and so therefore thereis no problem because I just
drink like everyone around me.
So you get this false sense ofsecurity, of kind of being like
okay, this is what we do, but welive in a society now that has
normalized alcohol, particularlyfor women, as being a

(07:40):
normalized everyday solution toanything that happens in life.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
It's everywhere, it's everywhere.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Every WhatsApp group you're in, it's a mom's group.
Oh, I've had a hard day, thekids are driving me bonkers, and
the first response is oh, gohome and have a glass of wine.
Like, we've just normalizedwine for women as being the
solution to parenting, to beinga woman, to working, to the
stress that we all have, andthat is not without its
repercussions, and so we willcome on to what that looks like

(08:07):
in menopause in a moment.
So we're definitely in thatplace where grey area drinkers
are not meeting any criteria fordependence.
We might not have had a bigrock bottom, but there's just a
few warning signs starting to gooff that show that maybe our
relationship with alcohol is notthat healthy.
And the question I would ask toall of your listeners right now
is just notice what comes up foryou when I say this Okay,

(08:30):
tomorrow, let's all do 90 daysoff booze.
So from tomorrow, let's alljust take 90 days off and do it
as an experiment.
If you're not a gray areadrinker like I've got a lot of
friends who are not gray areadrinkers they just be like, sure
, yeah, I can do 90 days, allthe gray area drinker like I've
got a lot of friends who are notgray area drinkers.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
They just be like sure, yeah, whatever, yeah, I
can do 90 days.
All the gray area drinkers noware like wait.
I have a wedding wait.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
I have a party, I have a birthday, I have a
holiday.
I can't go to xyz and not drink, and so we've created
associations in our mind that weneed to have alcohol in a
certain scenario and thatscenario, without alcohol, would
be less than would be hard,would be whatever.
The fill in the blank questionis there.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yeah, okay, I'm sure you're familiar with Mel Robbins
.
She talks about herrelationship with alcohol a lot
and how it's become this turnoff switch at the end of her day
where she's got so much goingon in her head that she knows
when she opens up that bottle ofwine.
It's her way to tell herselfand the world I'm done for the
day.
Do you notice that a lot ofgray area drinkers are very high

(09:34):
, achieving type A women?

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah.
So I've got a community of25,000 women and I asked them
why do you drink?
And the number one reason wasthat.
So it was like overwhelm,escapism, oblivion.
We're living our lives often at100%.
We're so busy, we're sostressed, we're so overwhelmed
and our head is so full that wedrink just to escape what's

(10:00):
going on in our head.
And, interestingly, the othertwo reasons were loneliness and
boredom going on in our head.
And, interestingly, the othertwo reasons were loneliness and
boredom.
So we've got a generation ofmidlife women who are stressed
to the hilt, bored and lonely,and alcohol is stepping in as
the temporary solution.
But the problem is that in theshort term alcohol is a great

(10:22):
solution.
It fixes what we want in thatfirst short term, but as a
long-term solution it'sabsolutely bloody awful.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
But you were saying like I can't go to the party
without.
So I've been on a sober,curious journey for a long time
now and I noticed that when I'mnot participating in the
drinking and I'm at a party, Ican be there for a good hour,
two hours, after three or fourhours where everybody's getting
buzzed and I'm not on that level.
I don't want to really be thereanymore.

(10:52):
So when people are like well,I'm worried about taking the fun
out of my life, how do youspeak to your clients about that
sort of fear?

Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah, and I've written a whole chapter in my
book about this, because it's amassive one that comes up so
much.
And I think it's reallyimportant that at some point we
redefine what fun is to beginwith.
And so we've been raised in asociety and culture that tells
us, as a midlife woman, the onlyway to have fun is to get
dressed up, go and get drunkwith your girlfriends and that's

(11:25):
the fun that you have as amidlife woman.
But actually there are so manyways that we can have fun and
they don't have to be at night.
In fact, for me now they areoften not at night, because I
treasure my sleep so much,because when Sarah's had a great
sleep she shows up as more calm, more joyful, more energized,
she's a better mom, she's abetter friend, and so loads of
the fun things I do now will beduring daylight hours.

(11:48):
It will be connection, it willbe trying new things, like all
sorts of stuff that doesn't haveto involve that evening.
And I have the same rule I goout at night and I love
socializing at night and I lovegoing out, but generally after
two hours, when everyone'sstarting to repeat themselves
and spit in my face, I'm like,see ya, that's it, I'm done, and
I just like I'm happy to justkind of go.

(12:10):
That was my two hour fill.
I'm finding it all a bit much,much, and that just is
absolutely fine for me, becauseI always make sure that I've got
lots of fulfilling stuffplanned for the next couple of
days, so I don't feel like I'vemissed out in any way.
And that's the most importantpart, and I think that's the
secret to changing yourrelationship with alcohol You've
got to create a life that youlove so that you don't miss the

(12:33):
alcohol, and that's why I wrotethis book, because I could see
there were so many books outthere that were memoirs of
people's journeys to quitdrinking, or they were stories
of how to quit drinking, butthere was nothing about well,
how do I create a life that Ilove as a midlife woman so I
don't need to drink, because allI've done for fun for the last
20, 30, 40 years sometimes is goand get drunk with my

(12:57):
girlfriends Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Absolutely.
You hit the nail on the headbecause I realized that a lot of
the times that I'm notparticipating, it's the wait.
You're going to leave already.
Wait, you're going to not stayhere.
No, stay for another hour.
But that person's like buzzedand speaking real close to me,
spinning the whole thingrepeating themselves, and I'm
like, well, do I want to stayhere?

(13:20):
Do I want to be here?
And the answer, if I'm beinghonest, is I don't.
I want to be home watching theGolden Girls and having a shower
and calling it a day, like Idon't actually want to
participate.
And that's where I think youhave to shift your mindset of
like, truly, what is going tomake you happy instead of being

(13:41):
part of a community.
But then I ask you, we ashumans need to be part of a
community.
So when you are outcast and I'mbeing dramatic but if you're
not part of the club that'sdrinking all the time, how do
you deal with that with yourclients?

Speaker 2 (14:03):
What advice do you give?
Yeah, and it's really hard andI share in my book my opening
line in the chapter aboutsocializing is being at the
school gate and one of the mumssaying to me oh, let's catch up
when you're drinking again.
Yeah, and I was like it waslike someone had punched me in
the stomach and I went home andI nearly cried because I was
like it was like someone hadpunched me in the stomach and I
went home and I nearly criedbecause I was like, well, if I
never drink again, does thatmean that she never wants to
catch up with me again?

(14:23):
And to backtrack a little bit,I was Sarah the party girl.
I was the one that everyonecame to my house for pre-drinks.
Everyone came back to my houseafter the party had finished
because there was alwayschampagne and wine in my fridge.
And so, as Sarah the party girl, I had to go on this whole
journey of creating this wholenew who actually was I without
alcohol, and that's beenabsolutely life-changing.

(14:44):
But, to answer your question,there are a couple of things
that happen.
So, number one we discover whoare the friendships that go
deeper than the people we getdrunk with, and it's okay that
some friendships will slip away,because in that season of your
life, when you were Sarah, theparty girl and loved drinking,
you naturally gravitated towardspeople that also loved drinking

(15:07):
and that was a priority.
But when you stop drinking youthen discover well who are the
people that I have a depth ofconnection with and I could love
spending time with them withoutalcohol, and who are the people
that I don't.
And it's okay that there mightbe some people that it doesn't
go that deeper with, because Iwas listening to Mel Robbins
actually talking to the ladythat wrote the book about adult

(15:29):
friendship Danielle I can'tremember her last name and she
was talking about the fact thatwomen tend to change 50% of
their friendship group everyseven years.
Wow, and I think that's reallyinteresting to actually consider
this.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
And so I think we also switch taste buds every
seven years too.
Well, there you go, right sothat says it all.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
And so I have met lots of new women who've come
into my life who are on thisalcohol-free journey, because
when you join a community andit's so important to join a
community when you do decidethat you want to be curious
about changing your relationshipwith alcohol, because if you're
surrounded by gray areadrinkers, it can feel incredibly
lonely.
So I really really recommendthere's online communities,

(16:10):
which is what I did initially,because I didn't have any
in-life friends who werealcohol-free, but then, through
the online communities, I metpeople who lived, in-life
friends who were alcohol-free.
But then, through the onlinecommunities, I met people who
lived in my local town and I'vemet some great friends who I now
spend a lot of time with.
But I still have lots ofdrinking friends and it doesn't
bother me that they drink andthey don't care that I don't
drink.
There was a period of transitionand it involved honesty and it

(16:33):
involved saying to themalcohol's been really impacting
me.
I've noticed I have an increasein anxiety.
It's making me not the personthat I want to be, and I've
decided to take a break for awhile, but our friendship is
really important to me, so I'dlove if we can just for a little
while, arrange some catch-upsthat are not focused on alcohol.

(16:54):
But it's really important to methat we work on our friendship
because you're an importantperson to me.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
I love that.
Well, let's take a major stepback too, when you first started
to take a break or just stopdrinking altogether.
What was that moment?
I know you speak about this inyour book.
Anybody listening if you'reeven sober, curious at all want
to reevaluate your life withalcohol.
I promise you, this book is sogood it's so good that I went

(17:26):
out of my way to stalk Sarah andDM her to be on the podcast.
But when you said, okay, I'mdone, what happened?
What was the story there?

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, so I had started drinking at 14.
I grew up in the north ofEngland and I discovered alcohol
.
And in that moment ofdiscovering alcohol a few things
happened for me.
So number one we'd moved town,moved city a lot as a child.
So I'd gone to lots ofdifferent schools.
So as a young girl I'd had tobe the one to figure out how do

(17:53):
I get people to like me, how doI fit in, how do I make a whole
new group of friends now thatI'm another new school?
And we did the last move when Iwas 13, and that was a really
tricky move for me.
You know, it's a very difficultage at 13 to leave all your
friends behind.
We moved from Scotland toEngland.
I had this really strongScottish accent.
We went to this really poshall-girls school where I felt

(18:16):
like I was so out of my depthand I really struggled to fit in
.
And about a year or so aftermoving there I got invited to
the local park and everyone wasdrinking and I drank and I
realized that I got really litup by alcohol.
So I definitely have a brainthat a bit of alcohol goes in
and I get lit up like aChristmas tree.

(18:36):
And then I started gettingfeedback.
You're so fun when you're drunk, you're hilarious when you're
drunk and you know like when youdrink with someone and they're
like you're my best friend, Ilove you.
That was music to my ears asthe new girl that was always
struggling to find people tolike her, new girl that was
always struggling to find peopleto like her.
And I discovered at that age ah, alcohol is a great segue of

(18:59):
creating connection with otherwomen, other girls and making
friends.
And that became my life formany years and alcohol wasn't
problematic.
I moved to London.
It was the era of sex in thecity.
It was the era of the SpiceGirls, it was girl power.
It was women can earn their ownmoney, they go on nights out
with their girlfriends, theydrink their Cosmopolitans, they

(19:21):
have one night stands.
They kind of have this realfemale empowerment stage.
That was happening in the 90s.
And then I met my husband and wemoved to Australia after we got
married and had a baby and thatwas when my drinking really
changed, because I went frombeing someone that was a big
social drinker to being on theother side of the world.

(19:42):
I got pregnant again veryquickly, so I had two under two.
I had no family around.
I didn't have any friendsaround.
I had gone from having a verysuccessful career to being at
home all day pureeing carrot,changing nappies, going to
monkey music and I didn't knowwho the hell I was.
And I was really sad and I wasreally lonely and I was really

(20:05):
homesick.
But I didn't know how to manageany of those emotions.
I probably couldn't evenlabeled at the time that that
was how I was feeling.
I just knew I felt wrong andthat that evening glass of wine
made all those feelings go away.
Because that's what alcoholdoes it numbs us.
So alcohol then became thatcrutch for me.
At five o'clock I can pour aglass of wine and it was like

(20:30):
you know, it was like my treat,my reward, that, the thing that
made all those icky feelings goaway.
And for a short time it worked.
But the problem with alcohol iswe build tolerance, so we need
more.
I turned 40 and throwperimenopause into the mix and
just as I was getting older Iwas noticing when I drank I

(20:52):
would wake up at sort of two orthree in the morning.
I couldn't get back to sleep.
Even if it was just one or twoglasses.
I was riddled with anxiety andI was someone who I'd never had
anxiety before.
But I was starting to questioneverything.
Oh God, what did I say lastnight?
Just all those that innerchatter was so negative.
I would wake up in the morningand I'd be like oh God, you're a

(21:13):
loser.
You said you weren't going todrink last night.
You finished that bottle ofwine, you smoked cigarettes.
You're disgusting.
And my inner world was becomingreally negative.
And then, the icing on the cakeI went to a 40th birthday party
and I got so drunk I fell overand landed with my face on a
concrete driveway and I gottaken home and put to bed.

(21:34):
And I got woken up the nextmorning by my five-year-old
daughter standing by the bed andshe said to me Mommy, what
happened to your face?
And I just felt such utterdisgust with myself, such shame,
such self-loathing that I hadgot so drunk in front of all

(21:55):
these people that I'd smashed mylip open.
There was blood everywhere.
It was just revolting.
So I decided to take a breakfrom alcohol.
I thought I'll do 21 daysbecause I thought I've just got
a bad habit.
So I just need to break thishabit that I've developed.
They say it takes 21 days andthis was in 2017.
So there wasn't the podcast,the books, the support groups

(22:18):
that there is now.
And so I did my 21 days andeverything changed.
So the anxiety disappeared, thesleep improved, the inner
chatter in my mind became morepositive, I lost weight, I had
more energy, I felt moremotivated, I felt happy, my mood
, everything was so much better.

(22:38):
So I kept going and I got to 100days and then I was like, well,
I can't never drink again,because that would be weird,
because I'm Sarah the party girl.
So I know, now that I havetaken 100 days off, I clearly
don't have a problem.
So I will be a grown up,moderate drinker.
I've nailed it.
I've done a hundred days.

(22:59):
Now I'm just going to be one ofthose midlife women that just
has a glass of wine every nowand then and everything's fine.
And the first night I drank, Iwent out for dinner with my
husband and my best friend andher husband and I sat there with
my glass of wine.
I was like, look at me, I'vegot this sussed.
I'm just a one glass of winekind of woman.
Now Everything's fine.
And within a month I was backto drinking the same as before,

(23:21):
because that's generally how itgoes for grey area drinkers.
And in 2019, after two years oftrying to moderate, fighting so
hard to be, what I believed wasthe epitome of female midlife
was to be able to have a glassof champagne or a glass of wine
when you wanted it, stop whenyou wanted to not have the

(23:43):
repercussions of it, and Ifought so hard for that.
But it wasn't me.
There's a lot of evidence thatI understand now about my brain,
my neural pathways, about grayarea drinking that makes it.
It was never going to be me,and so in the end, I had a
decision to make do I carry ondrinking like I am that's making
me miserable, anxious,overwhelmed, tired, unmotivated

(24:06):
or do I stop drinking where Ifeel happy, content, energized,
motivated, positive, like it wasa no brainer in the end?
So, april 2019, I had my lastdrink, and then, 2020, I
retrained to be a gray areadrinking coach.
And 2021, I launched mybusiness, which started with one
interview in an online women'swebsite and I shared my story of

(24:30):
gray area drinking, and 8,000women contacted me within 24
hours and said you just told mystory and I'm sure you're going
to get that after this airs,because I feel like there's so
many.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
But wait back to that April day.
Was there some?
I know you hit your head beforethat, but was there something
that night before your lastdrink?
That happened Nothing, you justhad a shift.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
I set the date a month before, okay.
So in the March I was just sickand tired of my own bullshit
and I was like, sarah, when areyou actually going to stop, yeah
, fighting for something thatisn't there and telling yourself
that you're going to be able todo it?
Everything in your life isbetter when you don't drink.
So I had my friend's 40th inthe April and I decided that was

(25:13):
going to be my last night and Ithought, oh, I'm going to have
a massive night.
I got my hair done, I got mymakeup done, I went going I'm
going out with a bang and I went.
I had about three drinks andwent home because I think I was
just so excited for the nextchapter of my life to start.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
You were saying that 8,000 women reached out to you.
I have.
When I posted podcasts withother authors about gray area
drinking and being in sobercuriosity, a lot of women DM me
their own journeys and their ownfear about telling their
friends.
Why is there such a fear ofcoming out and saying, hey, this

(25:50):
isn't really working for meanymore?
Why can't we all just agreethat that's sort of normal,
especially during menopause andperimenopause?

Speaker 2 (25:59):
There's just so much shame and so much stigma
attached to having what's deemedas a problem with alcohol, and
I think that that goes backdecades.
I think that there's this wholeidea that we're meant to be
able to moderate our drinking.
All of the taglines aredrinking, moderation and all of

(26:20):
this, but in actual fact, no onetalks about alcohols, up there
as one of the top five mostaddictive substances in the
world.
It's a level one carcinogenthat directly causes seven types
of cancer, but we've just allbeen brainwashed into believing
that it adds to our life and theonly people that have a problem
with alcohol are weak, thatthey have succumbed to this

(26:40):
terrible addiction, and that'sabsolute bullshit.
And what we now know is that 30years ago, the alcohol industry
sat around a table realizingthey were not making enough
money from women and theydecided to segregate their
marketing, to have a marketingcampaign directly targeted at
women.
And it's worked, because overthe last 30 years, alcohol use

(27:03):
disorder in women has increased87 percent.
So we know that it's increased,but yet we still have this
weird society where you tellsomeone you stopped smoking and
they're like well done, good onyou.
And you say to someone youstopped drinking, and they go oh
, don't be so boring, can't youjust have one.
Or there's all these hushedwhispers.

(27:24):
Sarah stopped drinking.
Do you think she had a problemwhere I saw her really drunk at
a party?
Like it's so weird that smokingis one thing but alcohol and
maybe as well.
I think that the people thathave a problem with us not
drinking are generally thepeople that have a bit of a
problem with drinking.
So then it shines a mirror ontheir drinking if we decide to
stop drinking and they fear thatthey're going to be judged or

(27:46):
that we're going to try and getthem to stop drinking, and so
their way of channeling that isto criticize or, to, you know,
make negative comments around usnot drinking.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
What do you say to the women that, like you were
saying earlier, like how am Inot going to go to this party if
they're like, okay, I'm notgoing to drink, but I am going
to Italy, greece, mexico,wherever, like, fill in the
vacation spot, I'm going to gothere, I won't drink until then?
There's still thisromanticizing of alcohol that's
happening.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Absolutely, and it's so ingrained in our subconscious
and in our beliefs.
I was working with a client theother day.
She goes look, sarah, I'm finewith not drinking, but I can't
imagine not drinking at mydaughter's wedding.
And I said, okay, when's yourdaughter's wedding?
We'll work towards that.
And she goes oh, I don't know,she's only 12.
And I'm like, oh my God, wehave these weird kind of ideas

(28:43):
that we associate with alcohol.
And that's just theassociations we have formed from
the age of two, three, four.
Research shows that at the ageof two, a toddler can tell
whether their parent is drinkingan alcoholic or non-alcoholic
drink and in what kind ofcircumstances alcohol would be
expected, alcohol would beexpected.

(29:04):
So I know for me that growingup my parents were super social.
They had lots of dinner partiesand from a very young age
little Sarah got this kind ofvision of oh, as an adult, to
have fun you have to drinkalcohol.
So we've got these associations.
But I always say to clientswe'll just go one day at a time,
because it's incredible howquickly your brain actually and

(29:28):
your neural pathways start tochange.
That you'd be surprised.
Let's say, it's August andyou're going on holiday in
December and you're worryingabout how you're going to cope
with Christmas in the Bahamas orwhatever it is.
But you'd be surprised overthose few months how much your
neural pathways will change.
So I always say to my clientsdon't waste energy worrying

(29:50):
about something that's in thefuture, because by the time you
get there you're going to be ina completely different headspace
and we'll deal with thatscenario with the headspace
you're in in that moment.
I love that.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Okay, the other like elephant in the room of
menopause.
I know that you are certifiedin menopause coaching and I used
to live in New York City yearsago before I had my daughter,
olivia, and there's a hugedrinking culture in New York and
I think it has to do with thefact that most people don't
drive.
You could take the subway herethere, everywhere there's always
a bar downstairs from yourapartment to meet a friend for a

(30:21):
drink.
It was very much a drinkingculture for me especially.
I had no problem drinkingalmost every night.
Something happened when I washitting perimenopause.
That same amount of drinkingdoes not agree with me anymore.
I say it's like a toxicrelationship where sometimes
he's nice to you and sometimeshe's an absolute jerk.

(30:43):
So I know a lot of women aregoing through the same time.
Anybody in their 40s and early50s are like I can't drink
anymore.
It keeps me up at night.
I wake up with such anxiety,being that you're certified in
menopause coaching and stressmanagement.
How do you?
What's the correlation there?
What's the connection?

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, so there's a few things going on.
So number one women produceless of an enzyme ALDH alcohol
dehydrogenase than men.
So women, anyway, are, in thissituation, the weaker sex when
it comes to metabolizing alcohol.
So for a man and a woman tohave the same amount of alcohol,
more alcohol content enters awoman's bloodstream than a man's

(31:25):
because men are way moreefficient at metabolizing and
processing alcohol than womenare.
So we have less of this enzymeanyway.
And from about our 30s onwards,we produce less and less of
this enzyme as we age.
So by the time we get into our40s and 50s we've got less of
the enzyme that supports usmetabolizing and processing and

(31:46):
removing alcohol.
Number two our liver volume isshrinking.
So as we age our liver it'sshrinking, it gets tired, like
with all of our organs as we'reaging.
If we haven't been lookingafter them, they are not going
to be working the same in our40s and 50s as they are in our
20s.
And most of us have not beenlooking after them.
Because you look at what ourliver has to do it has to

(32:07):
process all the toxins in theproducts we put in our skin.
It has to process caffeine, ithas to process sugar, fast food,
ultra processed food, alcohol,tobacco.
If we've done that, what webreathe, our liver is working so
, so hard and it simply cannotwork as effectively as we're
getting older.
So for more and more women aswell, what we find is we're

(32:28):
producing less of the hormoneprogesterone as we're aging,
which means that we're feelingmore anxious.
Anyway, what happens when wedrink alcohol is we have a
release in the brain of theneurotransmitter GABA.
So GABA is what makes us feelcalm and relaxed.
So this is why when you firsthave a drink, you get that calm,

(32:49):
relaxed feeling that is like ah, and that will last about 20
minutes.
But it's a really big surge ofGABA and the brain does not like
us to have a lack of balance ofall the neurotransmitters and
it kind of goes oh too much GABA, so it will release the
opposing neurotransmitter,cortisol, or the more

(33:10):
stimulating neurotransmitters tobalance that out.
So we end up producing morecortisol, which is our stress
hormone, in response to the GABAthat's being produced by the
alcohol.
The problem is that the GABAwears off quicker, so we're
making ourselves more stressedand anxious by drinking alcohol.
The problem is that the GABAwears off quicker, so we're
making ourselves more stressedand anxious by drinking alcohol,
and the next day we will havemore circulating cortisol

(33:32):
because of the impact from thealcohol, and then we're feeling
more stressed and then we reachfor a drink, and then the cycle
continues.
And so I find so many midlifewomen are in this vicious cycle
of drinking to relieve theanxiety.
The alcohol is increasing theanxiety, so we're drinking more.
The liver can't process it.
Our estrogen is going up anddown, up and down throughout

(33:54):
this time as well.
The liver also has to processestrogen, but if it's having to
process alcohol all the time, itdoesn't get the chance to get
to the estrogen.
So we've got higher circulatingestrogen, which then can lead
to estrogen dominance, which canlead to weight gain, which can
lead to heavy periods, which canlead to heavy and more PMS.
And so it really is an absoluteshit show for our hormones when

(34:16):
we are adding alcohol into themix at this age.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yes, it's gone are the days that I could get away
with it.
I mean, it's just not the caseanymore, and I know a lot of
women are going through thisbecause a lot of my friends are
talking to me about it, so Iknow that I'm not alone.
And if anyone's listening tothis, sarah obviously checks her
DMs because she got mine, butyou could also DM me and Sarah

(34:39):
also has an amazing Facebookcommunity.
You also run, I guess would itbe safe to say, like an online
retreat or workshop that you do.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah.
So four times a year I runwomen's alcohol-free challenges.
And for anyone listening tothis, this is not a lecture,
this is not fear-mongering, thisis not to say you must never
drink alcohol again, but it's aninvitation.
It's an invitation to askyourself well, can I relate to
what Sarah and Sabrina aretalking about?
Have I noticed that I'm moreanxious after I drink?

(35:12):
Have I noticed that it'simpacting my sleep?
Have I noticed that my mood islower?
Have I noticed that I'm feelingnot as optimal as I would like
to feel as the woman I am today?
And if that's the case, thenthe invitation is maybe look at
taking a break from alcohol asan experiment.
There's a brilliant book outthere called Tiny Experiments,

(35:32):
and it's all about puttingourselves into situations to
challenge well, what works andwhat doesn't work for us.
And if we take 30 days offalcohol, we then have the
opportunity to go okay.
So how do I feel withoutalcohol in my system?
Is my sleep better?
Is my mood better?
Is my energy better?
Am I calmer?
Do I shout at my kids less?

(35:53):
Do I find I'm more motivated atwork?
Have I got more positiveself-talk?
Have I lost weight?
Is my skin glowing by the way.
All of these are generally thebenefits that I see women get.
So then we give ourselves theopportunity to know the version
of me and how she feels when I'mdrinking three, four, five
nights a week, whatever it is,and the version of me that has

(36:14):
30 days without alcohol.
And then I get to decide well,who do I want to be, how do I
want to feel?
Because the fact is that mostpeople in the Western world will
never take a long enough breakfrom alcohol to actually know
how they feel when they haven'tgot it in their system, because
we've got to remember it takes72 hours for alcohol to leave
the system.
So even if we drank every thirdday, we're still not showing up

(36:38):
as our optimal selves, becausethe body's still having to
process it and there's stillwork that's going on internally.
So I always say give yourselfthe opportunity and the
experiment of a bit of time offalcohol, but don't do it in a
way where you're going oh well,this is terrible, I just have to
stay home and cross off thedays that I'm boring and it's

(37:00):
awful and it's a punishment.
Do it as an experiment of goinghuh, okay.
So what am I going to dobecause I'm not drinking.
What are the positives that I'mnoticing?
What am I going to add in?
Because I'm not hungover on aSaturday morning and I can get
up and do that early morninghike or yoga class or whatever
it might be.
And that's why I think mychallenges work so well and we
have women from all over theworld that do them.

(37:22):
Because it's a safe space tosupport, to share, to connect
and to learn about the impactthat alcohol has on our neural
pathways, on our brain, on ourbody.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
I love it.
Thank you for saying that.
Yeah, I never want to like mywhole podcast since I started it
.
They're just conversations andI don't want anyone to think
this is any lecture.
I just think it's aconversation I'm having with my
friends and I wanted to make itpublic because I don't want
anyone out there who feels thesame way or can relate to any of
this to feel alone, like youare not alone, you aren't crazy.

(37:57):
There is like another way, andit doesn't have to be all or
nothing.
If that doesn't work for you,there are many options in this
journey.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think for anyone who'spiqued their interest this
conversation, like get a copy ofmy book Beyond Booze, get a
copy of my book.
And maybe join my free Facebookcommunity is called the Women's
Wellbeing Collective and we'vegot women from all over the
States Canada, new Zealand,australia, the UK and it's
putting yourself into anenvironment where you are

(38:27):
listening to women talking abouthow great their life is without
alcohol, because most of uslive in a world where what we're
hearing is and the stories weget told are your life will be
boring and terrible and an awfulpunishment if you never drink
alcohol again.
But putting yourself into anenvironment where you start
hearing women going oh my God,I'm a thousand days alcohol free
.
This is what's changed for me.

(38:47):
And all of this it just startsto go into your mind, planting
these little seeds of startingto contemplate okay, well, maybe
at some point I might want todo one of Sarah's challenges and
see how it feels.
And then I've got someinformation to be able to decide
.
Because, at the end of the day,what is this existence on planet

(39:10):
Earth if it is not about havingself-inquiry and curiosity
about what gives us the bestexperience of our lives?
Because that's what it's allabout?
Right, absolutely.
And I think that it's not aboutsaying I've got a problem with
alcohol.
It's about going well, maybeI've outgrown it and that's how
I see it.
I just see it that I outgrewalcohol and it stopped working

(39:31):
and it started to take more thanit was giving, and so for me,
I've never been a just have onekind of person, so it was easier
to have none than it was tohave one.
Right, and that's just how it'sbeen for me Amen, thank.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
And that's just how it's been for me Amen, thank you
, sarah.
For anyone listening, if you'redriving, I will have all of the
show notes, how to get in touchwith Sarah Obviously, you're on
Instagram and a link to theFacebook group as well and your
workshops, your challenges, thatyou do.
Thank you so much.
Also, if anyone's listening, Igot Sarah's book as an audiobook
and it was an easy listen,especially because your accent.

(40:05):
Everything just sounds better.
So, if anyone, the audio bookis also fantastic.
But thank you, sarah, so muchfor your time.
Thank you for having me.
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.

The Joe Rogan Experience

The Joe Rogan Experience

The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2025 iHeartMedia, Inc.