March 31, 2025 • 33 mins
Dr. Ramani Durvasula joins us to share her expertise on narcissistic relationships, explaining how they create invisible wounds that can be just as painful as physical abuse. We explore the psychological dynamics of these toxic relationships and provide validation for those who have experienced narcissistic manipulation but have struggled to identify it.
Whether you're currently in a toxic relationship, recovering from one, or supporting someone who is, this raw, unfiltered conversation provides validation, understanding, and a roadmap toward healing. Most importantly, it reminds us that no matter how long it took to recognize or leave the relationship, "it took as long as it took"—a compassionate truth that frees us from the burden of self-blame.
For more support, check out the Dr. Ramani Network and her book "It's Not You" to connect with others who understand what you're going through.
To watch the segment with Dr. Ramani and Sabrina, The Sabrina Soto Show:
https://www.sabrinasoto.com/the-sabrina-soto-show/
Connect with Sabrina on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/sabrina_soto
Connect with Dr. Ramani here:
https://doctor-ramani.com/
Dr. Ramani on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/doctorramani?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to a special edition of Redesigning Life.
Many of you know I have a newshow called the Sabrina Soto
Show Out and I was able toinvite amazing experts in their
fields just to come in and havea great conversation.
But because it's a show, wehave to edit it down.
Now, these conversations, theywere so good that I wanted to
(00:20):
publish the raw, uneditedversion, and that's what this
episode is.
You're going to hear action andyou may hear a crew in the
background, but I wanted topublish this so you can really
listen to the entire chat.
So here you go, Ready andaction.
I am so happy you're here.
Thank you so much for having me.
To me, you are a legend,because it was as if you were
(00:44):
holding my hand through such adark time in my life and I'm
sure you probably hear that allthe time I do.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm so sorry that happened to you and I wish
nobody needed me.
That's the world I want to livein.
I'm out of a job.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
For people who don't know what you're known for.
Can you tell everyone a littlebit about your background?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So I focus on people who are going through
narcissistic relationships.
A your background, so I focuson people who are going through
narcissistic relationships.
A lot of people say, oh, she'sthe narcissism expert and I had
to study narcissism a lot, so,yes, I learned a lot about it.
But what I really focus on iswhat happens to people when
they've been through arelationship with somebody who
is narcissistic, toxic,antagonistic use whatever word
(01:20):
you want and so I've been doingit for a long, long time and
written books and talk about iton YouTube, and I never imagined
it would become this.
I don't even think I could haveappreciated what the scale of
this problem was.
Yes, and I feel as though theworld of mental health ignored
it.
I think that's the part thatreally got me angry and I think
think about it, sabrina Personcomes to therapy.
(01:42):
Right, they're anxious, they'reupset, they can't sleep,
they're crying, they're confused, they're overwhelmed.
Who is the therapist focusingon?
The person, sort of what'sSabrina?
There's so much going wrong foryou.
Yeah, girl, you're having anormal reaction to being in that
kind of relationship.
That's right.
And so what I wanted people tounderstand is I don't want you
to feel all these uncomfortablethings, but it's not you and
(02:02):
that's why my book is calledit's Not you.
This is an expectable reactionto being in one of these
relationships, and so from there, really, that became the
foundation of the work I woulddo, because, focusing on just
the narcissism piece first ofall, it doesn't really change.
So I wasn't going to makeprogress.
And don't get me wrong, I'veworked with many narcissistic
clients in my practice tocontinue to consult with folks
(02:25):
about working with narcissisticclients, but where I really saw
the change and the conversationhad to happen because we weren't
having it is what was happeningto people in these
relationships, because they'renot.
It's not always about domesticabuse like physical abuse.
It's almost all of it emotionalabuse, very manipulative, and
so people say I don't identifywith this, like I don't have a
bruise on my face.
(02:46):
I say no, no, no, you got abruise on your soul, and that
counts.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I can't agree with you more, and I know this sounds
horrible to say, but I did feellike the abuse was just as it
hurt, just as much as ifsomebody were to physically hit
me, but it does, because you gotto remember when you're that
off balance, when you're livingwith something that
unpredictable, that invalidating, that at times can be kind of
kind and then become reallycruel.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
You don't know what you're getting Cognitive
dissonance, cognitive dissonance, good girl.
So then what happens?
Though you're also, you'refeeling the kind of overwhelm
and fear that a person wouldfeel, no matter how they're
being abused.
Right, our nervous systemdoesn't always distinguish.
All we know is we are, we feeluncertain, we feel anxious, we
feel on edge.
So we respond we feel crazy,because this person isn't always
(03:32):
terrible.
That's what was unique about thenarcissistic relationship.
You had a great big, sexyweekend.
Your friends all like them whenthey meet them.
Your mom's a sweetie toeveryone but you, and so it's
this.
It's confusing because youyourself might say but we do
have fun, right?
Then it became really bad.
(03:52):
Yes, but maybe this is my faultbecause other people like them.
If the person was bad all thetime, then it'd be a lot easier.
It might, because everyone willsay what are you doing?
This is the meanest person.
But if everyone's saying lovethem, great person.
I remember a friend who was ina narcissistic relationship and
everyone's like oh my gosh, I'mso glad to see you guys are
together.
He's such a good guy and shethought it's got to be me,
(04:15):
because everyone's saying thisis a great person.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I hate that.
I know all of the terms covertnarcissist, cognitive dissidence
, cognitive dissonance, lovebombing, all of the things.
But I have to tell you onething, that and I'm just going
to be really vulnerable about itI'm actually embarrassed that I
went through that, because Ifeel like it makes me look weak
(04:37):
that I allowed something likethat to happen in my life.
All right, so let's, let'sbreak that one down immediately.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I don't know a person in this world who would not be
vulnerable to one of theserelationships Not one.
You tell me who, sabrina.
When approached by someonecharming, charismatic, confident
, seemingly empathic, attractivepelling, who's like no, no, no,
I don't want to go out with you.
I'm going to go out with thatrumpled person in the corner.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I am embarrassed that I allowed that sort of
relationship in my life, and Ithink a lot of people feel that
way.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Okay, so no, I'm going to say first of all, I'm
going to call stop on that.
Every single person in theworld is vulnerable to these
relationships.
That makes sense.
There's not who wouldn't bevulnerable.
She's good.
Who wouldn't be vulnerable tosomeone charming, charismatic,
compelling, confident,attractive?
(05:33):
Who's not vulnerable to that?
So I'd like to find the personout there that would say I'm
going to choose someone who issort of a mess.
No, you're going to go for theshiny thing and we're taught to
go for the shiny thing.
You're the supply.
They're not the supply, you'rethe supply for them.
But my point is, we are drawnto them and they are drawn to us
.
And they're not drawn to usbecause we're a hot mess.
(05:55):
They're not drawn to us becausewe're a shrinking violet.
They're drawn to us becausewe're attractive.
So people walk around saying,well, they must have chosen me
because I'm weak or broken ortraumatized.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
No, they probably chose you because you're at the
top of your game story aboutsomething that happened in this
backyard and I started tobelieve the story until I
realized I have surveillancecameras and I watched the
(06:29):
surveillance footage andrealized it never happened that
way and I was lucky enough tohave surveillance cameras, right
.
But how many people are outthere who are told this happened
?
It's the gaslighting thatsecond guess themselves.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
It is legitimately crazy making Well, the ultimate
tell I always tell people am Ibeing gaslighted?
And I'll say here's theultimate tell and everyone
watching this show the ultimatetell you're being gaslighted is
that you feel compelled to startrecording conversations.
That's it.
That's how you know you'rebeing gaslighted Because no
normal person's like I want toget this down on tape.
Why would you do that?
But if you're like I can'tremember things.
(07:03):
And so the day a client comesto me and says I just wish I had
a recording, I'm like that'sbecause you're being gaslighted
all the time, and so you happento have that footage.
And sometimes people do, andsometimes that's the moment.
I can't tell you how many peopleI know were surviving during
their 25th year of an abusiverelationship, but that was the
day they got the recording, thatwas the day they saw it on
(07:25):
video.
So I want to get people out ofthese things or at least see
them clearly or disengage orengage with them differently,
before they have to wait forfootage.
We've got to learn to trustourselves.
But that need, that desire towant that recording, speaks to
how insidious gaslighting is.
And so people are clear,because I think everyone's using
(07:47):
this word.
I think gaslighting was likethe word of the year a few years
ago.
Gaslighting is a form ofemotional abuse and manipulation
and in its simplest form,gaslighting is doubting the
reality, the perception, theexperience, the memory of a
person and then dismantling thatperson and telling them there's
something wrong with them.
(08:07):
So it's not as simple as thatdidn't happen, sabrina.
But you know I'm a littleworried about you because you're
just, I don't know, you seem alittle off, like you're getting
a little crazy, sabrina.
So not just that Sabrina didn'tremember it right, but
Sabrina's crazy.
You hear that enough times.
You start to believe it.
You start to believe it,especially if you love that
person.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yes, I have to tell you it was such a dark time.
Again, you saved me.
It was like and I'm sure youhear this a lot I was digesting
so much narcissism informationto make me feel less crazy, but
then it almost turned on mebecause it would be like these
toxic traits are narcissistic.
And then I started thinking isthat me?
(08:46):
Do you hear that a lot forpeople that are being are in
these kind of relationships thatthey start second guessing
whether or not they're theproblem All the time.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
In fact, when people say I think I'm the narcissist,
I'm like, okay, well, we mightactually be in a good zone.
Probably not, becausenarcissistic people don't think
of themselves as narcissistic.
They either think of themselvesas victim or they think, or
they think they're the mostempathic person out there, like
(09:13):
they actually think.
I'm a great guy.
Like I buy everyone these greatgifts, I pick up the check, I'm
a great guy, I'm so empathic, Ifeel you.
All this nonsense.
They really believe that.
In fact, there's researchshowing that narcissistic people
in general rate themselves ashigher in empathy, which is yet
one more gaslight.
But when you go to this otherissue of people who've been
(09:34):
through these relationshipsthink they're narcissistic,
there's a few reasons for that.
One thing that happens in anarcissistic relationship is,
over time and I'm sure youexperience this you become less
and less and less of yourself.
You don't express needs, youdon't express wants, you don't
express preferences, because ifyou do, you're called selfish.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
That's oh my gosh, it's yeah, you're absolutely
right.
I would love for people tounderstand when, even if they're
dating or in a relationshipwhat are the signs to look out
for for narcissistic?
Not necessarily somebody withNPD, but even narcissistic, just
some sort of like on thespectrum high spectrum of
(10:14):
narcissism?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I wouldn't even concern yourself of whether it's
the high spectrum of narcissism.
Narcissism is on a spectrumfrom mild to severe, and even
mild narcissism can really playwith your head.
So here's the things you'relooking for.
You're looking for pathologicalselfishness.
You're looking for variableempathy.
Sometimes it seems to be on,sometimes it's off, but it never
really feels sincere.
(10:36):
You're looking for entitlementthat they're special, they
deserve special treatment.
They lose their mind if theyhave to wait in a line.
What do you mean?
You don't have my table ready?
What do you mean?
I have to wait an hour?
They're very grandiose.
They're very arrogant.
They are manipulative.
You see the gaslighting.
Now here's the problem.
That's not a first date opener.
It's not a second date opener.
(10:57):
They don't show that it's not athird date.
I would say that on average forpeople who are concerned,
they're in a narcissisticrelationship.
The problem is it can takealmost six months to a year to
observe enough of the patternsto say Houston, we have a
problem.
Yes, you know, that's theproblem, because there's enough
good moments in there.
The nature of love bombing,which I'll talk about in a
(11:18):
minute, but the nature of thatis means in the early part of
the relationship.
It feels fantastical, it feelsidealized, you feel seen and
heard like you've never feltseen before.
So even if some of these littletoxic signs are getting
sprinkled in there, a lot ofpeople will say this has got to
be a me thing, or once again I'mtrying to sabotage a
relationship.
So a lot of people will takethat on themselves because so
many boxes are being ticked.
(11:39):
As with most things, to see apattern, it takes time.
By the time you're already intoit, you're in, you might have
moved in together.
Narcissistic people not always,but often will like to go fast.
When people tell me they gotengaged in three months, I'm
like someone's an narcissist.
That's right, you know so it's.
It's the quicker you go, thedeeper they insinuate themselves
(12:02):
into your life, the harder itis obviously for you to get out
of it.
So they will want to move inquick.
They'll want to get engagedquick.
People will get pregnantquickly.
They'll introduce them toeveryone quickly.
They'll move to another cityfor them quickly.
And that quick, quick, quickpart.
People say this is sopassionate.
Am I real honey?
No, but wait.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Okay, so there is love bombing, but there is a
healthy relationship, that it ispassionate in the beginning.
So how do you tell thedifference?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
You don't feel confused.
When it's healthy in thebeginning, right, you don't feel
overwhelmed.
And, above all else, when it'spassionate in the beginning, you
don't feel silenced.
If you want to say, could weslow down, or I can't make it,
or I want to go see my friends,A narcissistic person is so
trying to control the narrative,I'm like, oh, I get it.
You don't want to go in deepwith someone right now.
(12:44):
So now you actually do want aclose relationship, but you also
want balance.
And the more you strive forbalance in the relationship
symmetry we call it like thisboth of you sort of have lives
outside the relationship, livesin the relationship.
The more you try to exert that,the more the narcissistic
person will question yourcommitment, question your love.
You know, listen, I'm doingeverything here.
I'm taking you out.
I don't know how much more youwant.
(13:05):
Now you feel guilty, like, oh,they are really doing all these
nice things for me.
I feel bad.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Now I feel bad.
Now I can tell you in myrelationships in my past, my
history is that I didn't listento my intuition.
So, looking back, ashindsight's 2020, I did kind of
see the red flags and ignoredthem.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yep, there's no such thing as a full-blown narcissist
.
That's not a thing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yes or me.
Yeah, I don't like to wait inline.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Here's the thing Nobody likes to wait in line.
I'm going to be on the line for30 minutes in the post office,
but do you think you're toospecial to wait in that line?
I mean?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
no, but I'll try to cut.
But everything else I'm fine.
It was just the waiting in line.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I'm in a hurry, but you know, if you did that I'll
be honest with you.
Somebody's like.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I'm dating Sabrina and she got all up in someone's
face about waiting in line.
I hate to tell you I'd be likepull back on that relationship.
Yeah, no, I would.
That would be a red flag.
Yes, I agree, and what I wassaying earlier is that I I kind
of saw signs and then I didn'tlisten to my intuition.
What was blocking you from your?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
intuition.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
What was happening, like wanting to be loved,
wanting to be loved and likingthe good part of it Right, right
, so that, and that's so human,so don't judge yourself for that
.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's such a human want and I think what's
happening is people are peoplewant the quick like give me the
five signs.
I'm like it's not that simple.
If it was that simple I'd be avery rich woman.
Like five signs and done.
It's not that we do have thisintuition, we do have this gut
brain, as it were.
But this brain and that brainoften are not friends.
(14:32):
Your brain's saying, honey, youwant a relationship.
Like make compromise.
Everything can't be the way youwant it.
But here that gut is sayingthis doesn't feel good.
Even look at, like GavinDeBecker's work.
It's like that you know thegift of fear.
Like you start feelingsomething funky.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Listen to funky, listen to funky.
And I do look back and and Irealize I just I don't think I
fully loved myself at that timeeither and I think that was a
big problem.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I'm going to call you out on that Please.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
OK.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, because once again now you're blaming
yourself.
Here's the bottom line, sabrinaSomeone was mistreating you.
Let's just that's it.
That's, that's full stop.
You didn't love yourself, ok,that's fine, you work on you.
Somebody was harming you and inthis deep dive of what was
Sabrina's contribution?
Sabrina's big mistake waswanting to love and be loved.
I don't call that a mistake, Icall that being a human being.
(15:21):
So Sabrina trying to saySabrina doesn't love herself.
Sabrina, this Sabrina, thisperson took advantage of a
situation, and that's the partthat's not okay.
And if we can stop theparagraph there, then people can
move from there.
Yes, that work on ourselves andunderstanding that we have a
right to be separate, individualhuman beings, and all that
stuff, that's the work of alifetime, sabrina, then we're
(15:42):
all going to meet our personwhen we're 89 years old.
I mean I'm getting close, that'sokay, and you know what that's?
Probably somewhere around 50 iswhen we should get into our
first relationship, because ittakes about that long to get our
inside house clean.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
It took me 47 years to get into a good relationship
and I also realized that onlinedating has created almost like
an online storefront fornarcissists.
My one relationship I was inthe person actually merged,
melded into the person that Iwas online.
So everything that I said myinterests were, they pretended
to be that exact person.
So when I met, I'm like, oh,this is my person.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Called mirroring and the narcissistic person.
Someone said this beautifullyto me.
They said they have a capacityto peel your face off.
Put it on them so you're seeingback everything you ever wanted
to hear.
And that technique of mirroringis actually something that
people are taught in whenthey're learning high-end
espionage, manipulation and allof that.
So that's what it is and wemisread that as empathy.
But what it is is that in manyways, a narcissistic person at
(16:46):
the beginning of a relationshipis like AI.
They're tailored to go up anddown with us.
That's the mirroring.
So they might do a full courtpress and you'll say, no one's
going to buy me a fancy dinnerand I'm going to want that.
Well then they're going tostart to figure out put a picnic
on the beach and so, before youknow it, they are shaping their
love bombing.
They're tailoring.
(17:06):
Again.
It's very AI to you.
I mean, that's how narcissisticpeople read them as being
empathic.
But they were paying attention.
But they were paying attentionto get in there and do whatever
reason.
You were good supply and theywant to secure that supply.
That's what that is and that'svery different than falling.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
One thing I do realize in all the times I tried
to walk away and it took Waytoo long.
I'm going to admit it took toolong for me to walk away, but I
realized the only way and pleasecorrect me if I'm wrong to
actually walk away from anarcissistic relationship is no
contact.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Okay, so I'm going to call you out again.
Okay, it didn't take you toolong, okay, information to feel
whole in your body, to feel safeenough to leave, to address
that trauma-bonded kind ofriding that roller coaster
experience with them.
So it took as long as it took.
(18:02):
Listen, we're never going tolive in a world where two weeks
into a relationship, someone'sgoing to know the person's
narcissistic Reena.
I still get played by newpeople I meet and friends.
I was going to ask you, you do,you do, because I still want to
care about you.
But then I'm like you know, youknow you never want to be like
it's almost like you're thinkingwait a minute, yeah, a couple
of children don't have to choose.
But also I'm like you justplayed me.
(18:22):
I'm making a video about that,you know.
So it's a more.
I think my own shrink told meshe's like I sometimes think you
get into these things for ideas.
I'm like no content.
But because we're human beings,we do want to connect, we do
want to be close.
I keep coming back to thatbecause that's the driver.
So it took you as long as ittook you, but we're not.
People are never going to getthere.
(18:42):
And if they do, two weeks andfour weeks in.
Then those are people who mayalso end up overcorrecting Right
, and I think that's thechallenge for survivors of
narcissistic relationship.
Either you're running in withreckless abandon or you're like
no, they said this one thingwrong, or they interrupted me
one time, or they didn't call meback in five minutes, or they
(19:04):
didn't want to wait in line.
Yeah, they don't want to waitin line, sabrina.
Sorry hon, you're going to haveto clean up that line behavior.
So those are the sorts ofthings that there that we,
there's an over-correction,under-correction, and that's why
I always tell people after arelationship with a narcissistic
person ends, there's only onepiece of guidance I can give you
need at least one year out, oneyear of no dating, no sex, no
(19:28):
make-out sessions, no flirtytexts, nothing.
That piece you said aboutloving yourself.
It's not even about lovingyourself.
It's about knowing who you areas a separate human being, what
you like, what you don't like,what your interests are, where
you like the thermostat set,what kind of cereal you'll like
to eat in the morning, becauseall of that was stolen from you.
You need to detox.
You need to not only detox, butyou need to know you and a lot
(19:50):
of people never do that in thefirst place, but certainly a
narcissistic relationship takesall of that away.
A year where you spendanniversary dates the way it
feels right to you, you travelalone, you spend time with
friends, you reconnect with yourlife.
Many people feel though I getthe complaint, dr Ramani I felt
alone for three years, so reallyI've been alone for three years
(20:11):
.
I said if that fool was in yourhouse, you were not alone for
three years.
You've been alone for threeyears.
I said if that fool was in yourhouse, you were not alone for
three years.
You've been alone for one month.
No, and every person I'veworked with who waited the year
said now I want to go longerbecause I'm actually really
enjoying life, and thenorganically if they meet someone
versus like it's been 365 days.
Can I go on the dating apps?
I'm actually not a fan ofdating apps.
For people who've been throughnarcissistic relationships, I
(20:32):
think it's accessible.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
It is, yeah, I think what for me?
Because I said that I was soembarrassed that I went through
this.
I even made a fake Instagramprofile so that I could follow
everything and so peoplewouldn't know, but to hear that
you've even been duped, I hateto say.
This kind of makes me feelbetter, because we all are, you
(20:54):
know, we all are.
It makes me feel a little bitbetter.
But I'm talking a lot aboutromantic relationships.
I know people haverelationships with their parents
, with a boss.
So, what happens when you can'tgo no contact with somebody like
that?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Sabrina, most people in narcissistic relationships
can't go no contact.
In fact, I guess probably half,maybe even more than half of
people can't leave theirintimate relationships with
narcissistic people for a wholevariety of reasons.
They may have minor childrentogether.
They may be financiallyinterdependent.
There may be cultural reasons.
There may be reasons of fear.
When you leave a narcissisticrelationship it can get really
(21:29):
difficult very quickly.
There could be, at the moresevere end, smear campaigns and
stalking.
Flying monkeys you know flyingmonkeys from.
Flying monkeys are those peoplewho are sort of doing the
narcissistic person's biddingand kind of getting into your
life and getting intel from you.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
A flying monkey is somebody that the narcissist
gets on their side to do thegossiping about you, to smear
you.
They're not doing it, so theydon't look like the bad guy
Correct Exactly and that's verycommon.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
So some people aren't prepared for that fallout.
So a lot of people don't go nocontact.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
It's a.
I actually think it's a bit ofa luxury to go no contact.
Yeah, so if someone is watchingthis and they suspect someone
in their life is a narcissist,can you recap exactly some of
the big signs?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
A person who's narcissistic has low empathy
variable empathy, I won't saythey have no empathy, it's just
sort of really low and it's kindof all over the place, right.
They believe they deservespecial treatment.
They believe the rules don'tapply to them.
They do believe the rules applyto everyone else, though, just
not them.
They're grandiose, arrogant,pathologically selfish.
(22:33):
They have an excessive need forpraise, validation and
admiration.
They need to be the center ofattention.
They can often feel like thevictim.
If things don't go exactly theway they want or they don't get
the thing they want, they're thevictim.
They've been wronged,everything's unfair to them, and
the way those traits show up ina relationship include
(22:54):
manipulation, gaslighting.
They're very dismissive, theyminimize other people's problems
.
They lie, they cheat, theybetray, they dominate, they
control, they shift blame.
They don't take responsibility.
That's how it shows up and whatit does to people.
It leaves them feelingself-blaming, confused, anxious,
can't sleep, concentrate,ruminate.
(23:17):
I was thinking about it.
I'm sure you were.
I lost so much weight Becauseit's so confusing, and so that's
why I do what I do, which is toshine a light on this and
really say again it's not you,that this is really a pattern.
I have your book right here, incase you were wondering.
I just put that out there.
It's not you.
This is a pattern and it worksfor them and we reward this
(23:38):
behavior.
And these people run ourcompanies and run our
governments and run everything.
They're much more likely to beleaders.
Narcissistic people make moremoney.
Narcissistic people have moreluck at dating, so they're kind
of winning.
They're the ones who move onthe quickest.
Well, they move on immediatelybecause they aren't going to
leave you unless they have newsupplies.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, they always have somebody waiting.
So I know that a lot of timespeople narcissists.
They sometimes cop to theproblem and say I'm going to get
help, I'm going to change, Ilove you.
I've never loved anyone likeyou, Not that I've heard that
before, but can narcissistschange so?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
to your other point that I'm going to change.
I'm going to go therapy.
That's called future fakingFuture faking.
So that's making a promise tokeep someone hanging around for
another three months, six months, one year, 50 years depends on
your time frame.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
But what if they really?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
want to change, do they?
I don't know.
So I would say to them I'mgoing to change.
I would say then you look at meand you tell me exactly how it
is.
You're going to change, and thething is the thing.
You need to happen.
They may not even understandwhat that is.
They're like I'll empty thedishwasher.
I'm like homie.
This is a lot more than thedishwasher.
(24:45):
That ship has sailed.
And so what this becomes,though, is that those promises
come and, sabrina,understandably because people
are invested in theserelationships, they stick around
the first feature fake, thesecond feature fake.
In fact, there's a pattern inthese relationships called
hoovering, where you get pulledback in.
Of course, you do love thisperson, you're connected to this
(25:07):
person.
Now, can they change?
That's probably the most loadedquestion, and I'd say probably
not enough to make a difference.
Right, does that make sense?
So I've worked withnarcissistic clients.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I have PTSD right now .
I'm like sweating.
I'm sorry, I'm past it, thankGod.
But the hoovering I forgotabout that word.
That's a thing, that's a realthing, because when you
hoovering, I noticed that whenyou finally really mean goodbye,
they turn it on even harder.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Hoovering can be a dream too, because for people
who didn't feel chosen in theirlives, hoovering is like
actually they really want me.
And where hoovering gets to bea hot mess is if they move on to
someone else and then they'relike baby.
I didn't know how good I had itwith you.
You will have to be made ofsome kind of titanium to not
fall for that right, and sothat's what I work with helping
(25:57):
people through Like they had noproblem betraying you once.
I'll take the bet that they'regoing to do it again.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I say once a cheater, always a repeater, and I really
do believe that If you're in arelationship and you do that to
someone, I think most likely ofcourse there's Always a case
that that might not happen, butI think that somebody who's a
narcissist is always going to dothe same behavior.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Well, narcissistic people do tend to cheat because
they tend to betray, becausethey need new supply and they
actually have no empathy for you.
So the combination and they'reentitled like, well, why
shouldn't I be able to have sexwith the hot girl I met in Vegas
?
Like, it doesn't seem like aproblem to me.
You're making too big a dealout of it.
So you get gaslighted, they gettheir supply, they minimize the
harm it does.
It's all the dynamics show up.
But can they change?
(26:39):
I've had narcissistic clientswho would show up 30 minutes
late to session and say, well,can't we go the full hour?
I said no, there's someoneright behind you.
Like, you get 20 minutes, Ineed a minute to go to the
bathroom, like, and then no.
And they'd look offended, like,well, I'm paying you a lot for
a certain period of time.
They'd want to text me onChristmas.
They'd want callbacks at 5 am.
(26:59):
You know you have to noboundaries, no boundaries, right
.
So over time they wouldn't dothat.
They'd actually show up to thesession on time, they would pay
the bill on time, they would nottext me at those times and
wouldn't get enraged if theydidn't get a response.
Is that change?
Sure, would that be enoughchange to make a difference in a
close relationship?
No, and so the but I thinkwhere people get frustrated,
(27:20):
they went to therapy.
I was just going to say that.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I thought that narcissists don't go to therapy.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And they do.
And they often go to therapybecause they feel like a victim
my wife is so mean to me, mythis is so mean to me, what's
happening to me so unfair.
And as a therapist, you're like, okay, well, let's work a
little bit.
I can understand it.
You're hurting, but when youtry to do any emotionally deep
work or accountability, thewhole thing falls apart and then
they stop coming or you're abad therapist.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
I remember going to therapy with that said person
and they would turn it on to thetherapist and the therapist
would think that they were thebest because they were just as
charming to them.
So if you're in a relationshipat home with someone and you're
going to therapy and thetherapist is duped too, like how
do you make sense of it all?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, so it's tricky because a lot of therapists
aren't trained in this and so alot of what I do in the world is
I train therapists to say look,be careful.
When you see couples therapyand you see one person who
almost looks deflated and theother one's all charming,
charismatic, pay attention tothat dynamic, because a lot of
people will say, well, he's witha dud, you know, she's like a
(28:22):
deflated balloon and he seems tobe on top of it.
And the narcissistic personwill compliment the therapist
yes, yes, you have to beseasoned.
I'm like there's nothing.
You can listen, you know.
Oh, you go.
I went to some great schoolshere.
I'm like sit down, you have tobe that clear.
But if you're green, if you'renew, if you don't know what
you're dealing with, it takes aminute and they don't teach this
(28:43):
in school.
So I'm not mad at therapists fornot getting this, but the
amount of change that anarcissistic person would not
only have to make but sustainforever.
Listen, how many people out inthe world have gone on a diet
and not been able to change whatthey eat and before you know it
(29:03):
, you're back to Hershey bars inbed.
Maybe that's just you know whatI'm saying Like we, we slide
back.
And for a narcissistic person,if you don't get all the way
down to that core insecurity,that core dysregulation, that
core I need the world to tell meI'm the most special deal with
the tantruming child that theyare, which is almost impossible
in therapy then they're notgoing to make the change that
you need for a relationship tobe successful.
So when I work with couples andI've worked with couples and I
work with individuals I've saidto them, to the person who's not
(29:26):
narcissistic in therelationship, how much what's
going to be enough here, becauseyou're never getting this,
we're going to get this.
What part of this could workfor you?
Because not everyone can leaveand for some people the
adjustment will have to be.
Could they not cheat?
So in my face?
Oh my yeah.
Those are the compromises peoplehave to make, and so this is no
(29:47):
joke.
So can they change?
Not enough to make a difference.
And like a rubber band, right,you can pull a rubber band out
this far, but unless someone'sholding both ends, as soon as
you put it down, it goes back toits original size.
That's how personality worksand, above all, that's how
narcissism works.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
There's not one person in my life that hasn't
had to deal with some sort ofnarcissistic relationship, so
that's why having thisconversation to me is so
powerful.
But this relationship has mademe feel like I'm not alone, that
you understand and that it'snot you.
And if you are at home and youare dealing with this at all,
this is a must read so you don'tfeel alone.
Because I think that whenyou're in this relationship, you
(30:25):
feel so alone and you feel socrazy that this will feel like
this will be like a littlepillow at night to keep you safe
and warm.
So for people you mentionedpeople not being able to leave a
relationship what tips couldyou give to someone to cope?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Whether you can or can't leave.
I think some of them areuniversal.
It's a little bit harder whenyou can't leave.
Some things are number one youneed support.
You need some people in theworld who see and get what
you're going through.
If you're fortunate, you have agood therapist, if maybe you're
in a support group community.
We have things like the DrRomney Network.
I have a healing program thatpeople can go and recognize the
network, yeah, yeah.
So the Dr Romney Network iswonderful because it's an
(31:00):
interactive network where everyweek we have guests, sometimes
we have a show.
That's all questions.
They can ask questions, butthere's also that sense of
community amongst everyonehearing whatever our topic of
the week is.
And then we also have a healingprogram where people get
community support and we do deepdives every month.
And community support and we dodeep dives every month.
So and I'm not the only one,there's other programs out there
.
Figure out what works for you.
Being in therapy helps, havingpeople in your life who get it,
(31:24):
reading, educating yourself.
You need validation, you needsupport.
That's number one.
Number two is recognize there'sa you separate from the
relationship, and I always sayto folks you kind of need to
learn how to phone it into therelationship.
You may not be able to leave,but recognize gray rocking.
Yellow rocking, which basicallymeans yellow rocking, is way
better than gray rocking.
(31:45):
Tell me all about this yellowrocking.
I love that color.
It's sort of like not givingthe narcissist supply.
Yellow rocking is where we puta little bit of us into it, like
yeah, no, it's going to rainthis weekend, it's gotten, so
(32:06):
they're watching something weird.
My friend, tina Swithin, cameup with that term.
She has a focus on helpingpeople through narcissistic
divorces and she found that kidsfelt a little weirded out when
(32:26):
they watch parents giving oneword to each other.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I have to tell you that I mentioned that I had a
fake Instagram, a Finsta account, to learn all about the
narcissistic recovery right, andwhat I love about you having
the Dr Ramani Network is thecommunity, because I think that
when you feel so alone, you needto talk to other people who are
going through it, to just havethat validation.
(32:49):
Yes, so thank you for that,thank you for your book, thank
you for being here, thank youand thank you to Terry Cole and
Kat Cora.
Today's intention was tonourish our mind and our body,
so I hope we inspired you toredesign your life as well.
Welcome to a special edition of Redesigning Life.
Many of you know I have a newshow called the Sabrina Soto
Show Out and I was able toinvite amazing experts in their
fields just to come in and havea great conversation.
But because it's a show, wehave to edit it down.
Now, these conversations, theywere so good that I wanted to
(00:20):
publish the raw, uneditedversion, and that's what this
episode is.
You're going to hear action andyou may hear a crew in the
background, but I wanted topublish this so you can really
listen to the entire chat.
So here you go, Ready andaction.
I am so happy you're here.
Thank you so much for having me.
To me, you are a legend,because it was as if you were
(00:44):
holding my hand through such adark time in my life and I'm
sure you probably hear that allthe time I do.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm so sorry that happened to you and I wish
nobody needed me.
That's the world I want to livein.
I'm out of a job.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
For people who don't know what you're known for.
Can you tell everyone a littlebit about your background?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So I focus on people who are going through
narcissistic relationships.
A your background, so I focuson people who are going through
narcissistic relationships.
A lot of people say, oh, she'sthe narcissism expert and I had
to study narcissism a lot, so,yes, I learned a lot about it.
But what I really focus on iswhat happens to people when
they've been through arelationship with somebody who
is narcissistic, toxic,antagonistic use whatever word
(01:20):
you want and so I've been doingit for a long, long time and
written books and talk about iton YouTube, and I never imagined
it would become this.
I don't even think I could haveappreciated what the scale of
this problem was.
Yes, and I feel as though theworld of mental health ignored
it.
I think that's the part thatreally got me angry and I think
think about it, sabrina Personcomes to therapy.
(01:42):
Right, they're anxious, they'reupset, they can't sleep,
they're crying, they're confused, they're overwhelmed.
Who is the therapist focusingon?
The person, sort of what'sSabrina?
There's so much going wrong foryou.
Yeah, girl, you're having anormal reaction to being in that
kind of relationship.
That's right.
And so what I wanted people tounderstand is I don't want you
to feel all these uncomfortablethings, but it's not you and
(02:02):
that's why my book is calledit's Not you.
This is an expectable reactionto being in one of these
relationships, and so from there, really, that became the
foundation of the work I woulddo, because, focusing on just
the narcissism piece first ofall, it doesn't really change.
So I wasn't going to makeprogress.
And don't get me wrong, I'veworked with many narcissistic
clients in my practice tocontinue to consult with folks
(02:25):
about working with narcissisticclients, but where I really saw
the change and the conversationhad to happen because we weren't
having it is what was happeningto people in these
relationships, because they'renot.
It's not always about domesticabuse like physical abuse.
It's almost all of it emotionalabuse, very manipulative, and
so people say I don't identifywith this, like I don't have a
bruise on my face.
(02:46):
I say no, no, no, you got abruise on your soul, and that
counts.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I can't agree with you more, and I know this sounds
horrible to say, but I did feellike the abuse was just as it
hurt, just as much as ifsomebody were to physically hit
me, but it does, because you gotto remember when you're that
off balance, when you're livingwith something that
unpredictable, that invalidating, that at times can be kind of
kind and then become reallycruel.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
You don't know what you're getting Cognitive
dissonance, cognitive dissonance, good girl.
So then what happens?
Though you're also, you'refeeling the kind of overwhelm
and fear that a person wouldfeel, no matter how they're
being abused.
Right, our nervous systemdoesn't always distinguish.
All we know is we are, we feeluncertain, we feel anxious, we
feel on edge.
So we respond we feel crazy,because this person isn't always
(03:32):
terrible.
That's what was unique about thenarcissistic relationship.
You had a great big, sexyweekend.
Your friends all like them whenthey meet them.
Your mom's a sweetie toeveryone but you, and so it's
this.
It's confusing because youyourself might say but we do
have fun, right?
Then it became really bad.
(03:52):
Yes, but maybe this is my faultbecause other people like them.
If the person was bad all thetime, then it'd be a lot easier.
It might, because everyone willsay what are you doing?
This is the meanest person.
But if everyone's saying lovethem, great person.
I remember a friend who was ina narcissistic relationship and
everyone's like oh my gosh, I'mso glad to see you guys are
together.
He's such a good guy and shethought it's got to be me,
(04:15):
because everyone's saying thisis a great person.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I hate that.
I know all of the terms covertnarcissist, cognitive dissidence
, cognitive dissonance, lovebombing, all of the things.
But I have to tell you onething, that and I'm just going
to be really vulnerable about itI'm actually embarrassed that I
went through that, because Ifeel like it makes me look weak
(04:37):
that I allowed something likethat to happen in my life.
All right, so let's, let'sbreak that one down immediately.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
I don't know a person in this world who would not be
vulnerable to one of theserelationships Not one.
You tell me who, sabrina.
When approached by someonecharming, charismatic, confident
, seemingly empathic, attractivepelling, who's like no, no, no,
I don't want to go out with you.
I'm going to go out with thatrumpled person in the corner.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I am embarrassed that I allowed that sort of
relationship in my life, and Ithink a lot of people feel that
way.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Okay, so no, I'm going to say first of all, I'm
going to call stop on that.
Every single person in theworld is vulnerable to these
relationships.
That makes sense.
There's not who wouldn't bevulnerable.
She's good.
Who wouldn't be vulnerable tosomeone charming, charismatic,
compelling, confident,attractive?
(05:33):
Who's not vulnerable to that?
So I'd like to find the personout there that would say I'm
going to choose someone who issort of a mess.
No, you're going to go for theshiny thing and we're taught to
go for the shiny thing.
You're the supply.
They're not the supply, you'rethe supply for them.
But my point is, we are drawnto them and they are drawn to us
.
And they're not drawn to usbecause we're a hot mess.
(05:55):
They're not drawn to us becausewe're a shrinking violet.
They're drawn to us becausewe're attractive.
So people walk around saying,well, they must have chosen me
because I'm weak or broken ortraumatized.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
No, they probably chose you because you're at the
top of your game story aboutsomething that happened in this
backyard and I started tobelieve the story until I
realized I have surveillancecameras and I watched the
(06:29):
surveillance footage andrealized it never happened that
way and I was lucky enough tohave surveillance cameras, right
.
But how many people are outthere who are told this happened
?
It's the gaslighting thatsecond guess themselves.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
It is legitimately crazy making Well, the ultimate
tell I always tell people am Ibeing gaslighted?
And I'll say here's theultimate tell and everyone
watching this show the ultimatetell you're being gaslighted is
that you feel compelled to startrecording conversations.
That's it.
That's how you know you'rebeing gaslighted Because no
normal person's like I want toget this down on tape.
Why would you do that?
But if you're like I can'tremember things.
(07:03):
And so the day a client comesto me and says I just wish I had
a recording, I'm like that'sbecause you're being gaslighted
all the time, and so you happento have that footage.
And sometimes people do, andsometimes that's the moment.
I can't tell you how many peopleI know were surviving during
their 25th year of an abusiverelationship, but that was the
day they got the recording, thatwas the day they saw it on
(07:25):
video.
So I want to get people out ofthese things or at least see
them clearly or disengage orengage with them differently,
before they have to wait forfootage.
We've got to learn to trustourselves.
But that need, that desire towant that recording, speaks to
how insidious gaslighting is.
And so people are clear,because I think everyone's using
(07:47):
this word.
I think gaslighting was likethe word of the year a few years
ago.
Gaslighting is a form ofemotional abuse and manipulation
and in its simplest form,gaslighting is doubting the
reality, the perception, theexperience, the memory of a
person and then dismantling thatperson and telling them there's
something wrong with them.
(08:07):
So it's not as simple as thatdidn't happen, sabrina.
But you know I'm a littleworried about you because you're
just, I don't know, you seem alittle off, like you're getting
a little crazy, sabrina.
So not just that Sabrina didn'tremember it right, but
Sabrina's crazy.
You hear that enough times.
You start to believe it.
You start to believe it,especially if you love that
person.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yes, I have to tell you it was such a dark time.
Again, you saved me.
It was like and I'm sure youhear this a lot I was digesting
so much narcissism informationto make me feel less crazy, but
then it almost turned on mebecause it would be like these
toxic traits are narcissistic.
And then I started thinking isthat me?
(08:46):
Do you hear that a lot forpeople that are being are in
these kind of relationships thatthey start second guessing
whether or not they're theproblem All the time.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
In fact, when people say I think I'm the narcissist,
I'm like, okay, well, we mightactually be in a good zone.
Probably not, becausenarcissistic people don't think
of themselves as narcissistic.
They either think of themselvesas victim or they think, or
they think they're the mostempathic person out there, like
(09:13):
they actually think.
I'm a great guy.
Like I buy everyone these greatgifts, I pick up the check, I'm
a great guy, I'm so empathic, Ifeel you.
All this nonsense.
They really believe that.
In fact, there's researchshowing that narcissistic people
in general rate themselves ashigher in empathy, which is yet
one more gaslight.
But when you go to this otherissue of people who've been
(09:34):
through these relationshipsthink they're narcissistic,
there's a few reasons for that.
One thing that happens in anarcissistic relationship is,
over time and I'm sure youexperience this you become less
and less and less of yourself.
You don't express needs, youdon't express wants, you don't
express preferences, because ifyou do, you're called selfish.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
That's oh my gosh, it's yeah, you're absolutely
right.
I would love for people tounderstand when, even if they're
dating or in a relationshipwhat are the signs to look out
for for narcissistic?
Not necessarily somebody withNPD, but even narcissistic, just
some sort of like on thespectrum high spectrum of
(10:14):
narcissism?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I wouldn't even concern yourself of whether it's
the high spectrum of narcissism.
Narcissism is on a spectrumfrom mild to severe, and even
mild narcissism can really playwith your head.
So here's the things you'relooking for.
You're looking for pathologicalselfishness.
You're looking for variableempathy.
Sometimes it seems to be on,sometimes it's off, but it never
really feels sincere.
(10:36):
You're looking for entitlementthat they're special, they
deserve special treatment.
They lose their mind if theyhave to wait in a line.
What do you mean?
You don't have my table ready?
What do you mean?
I have to wait an hour?
They're very grandiose.
They're very arrogant.
They are manipulative.
You see the gaslighting.
Now here's the problem.
That's not a first date opener.
It's not a second date opener.
(10:57):
They don't show that it's not athird date.
I would say that on average forpeople who are concerned,
they're in a narcissisticrelationship.
The problem is it can takealmost six months to a year to
observe enough of the patternsto say Houston, we have a
problem.
Yes, you know, that's theproblem, because there's enough
good moments in there.
The nature of love bombing,which I'll talk about in a
(11:18):
minute, but the nature of thatis means in the early part of
the relationship.
It feels fantastical, it feelsidealized, you feel seen and
heard like you've never feltseen before.
So even if some of these littletoxic signs are getting
sprinkled in there, a lot ofpeople will say this has got to
be a me thing, or once again I'mtrying to sabotage a
relationship.
So a lot of people will takethat on themselves because so
many boxes are being ticked.
(11:39):
As with most things, to see apattern, it takes time.
By the time you're already intoit, you're in, you might have
moved in together.
Narcissistic people not always,but often will like to go fast.
When people tell me they gotengaged in three months, I'm
like someone's an narcissist.
That's right, you know so it's.
It's the quicker you go, thedeeper they insinuate themselves
(12:02):
into your life, the harder itis obviously for you to get out
of it.
So they will want to move inquick.
They'll want to get engagedquick.
People will get pregnantquickly.
They'll introduce them toeveryone quickly.
They'll move to another cityfor them quickly.
And that quick, quick, quickpart.
People say this is sopassionate.
Am I real honey?
No, but wait.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Okay, so there is love bombing, but there is a
healthy relationship, that it ispassionate in the beginning.
So how do you tell thedifference?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
You don't feel confused.
When it's healthy in thebeginning, right, you don't feel
overwhelmed.
And, above all else, when it'spassionate in the beginning, you
don't feel silenced.
If you want to say, could weslow down, or I can't make it,
or I want to go see my friends,A narcissistic person is so
trying to control the narrative,I'm like, oh, I get it.
You don't want to go in deepwith someone right now.
(12:44):
So now you actually do want aclose relationship, but you also
want balance.
And the more you strive forbalance in the relationship
symmetry we call it like thisboth of you sort of have lives
outside the relationship, livesin the relationship.
The more you try to exert that,the more the narcissistic
person will question yourcommitment, question your love.
You know, listen, I'm doingeverything here.
I'm taking you out.
I don't know how much more youwant.
(13:05):
Now you feel guilty, like, oh,they are really doing all these
nice things for me.
I feel bad.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Now I feel bad.
Now I can tell you in myrelationships in my past, my
history is that I didn't listento my intuition.
So, looking back, ashindsight's 2020, I did kind of
see the red flags and ignoredthem.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Yep, there's no such thing as a full-blown narcissist
.
That's not a thing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yes or me.
Yeah, I don't like to wait inline.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Here's the thing Nobody likes to wait in line.
I'm going to be on the line for30 minutes in the post office,
but do you think you're toospecial to wait in that line?
I mean?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
no, but I'll try to cut.
But everything else I'm fine.
It was just the waiting in line.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
I'm in a hurry, but you know, if you did that I'll
be honest with you.
Somebody's like.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I'm dating Sabrina and she got all up in someone's
face about waiting in line.
I hate to tell you I'd be likepull back on that relationship.
Yeah, no, I would.
That would be a red flag.
Yes, I agree, and what I wassaying earlier is that I I kind
of saw signs and then I didn'tlisten to my intuition.
What was blocking you from your?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
intuition.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
What was happening, like wanting to be loved,
wanting to be loved and likingthe good part of it Right, right
, so that, and that's so human,so don't judge yourself for that
.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
That's such a human want and I think what's
happening is people are peoplewant the quick like give me the
five signs.
I'm like it's not that simple.
If it was that simple I'd be avery rich woman.
Like five signs and done.
It's not that we do have thisintuition, we do have this gut
brain, as it were.
But this brain and that brainoften are not friends.
(14:32):
Your brain's saying, honey, youwant a relationship.
Like make compromise.
Everything can't be the way youwant it.
But here that gut is sayingthis doesn't feel good.
Even look at, like GavinDeBecker's work.
It's like that you know thegift of fear.
Like you start feelingsomething funky.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Listen to funky, listen to funky.
And I do look back and and Irealize I just I don't think I
fully loved myself at that timeeither and I think that was a
big problem.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
I'm going to call you out on that Please.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
OK.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, because once again now you're blaming
yourself.
Here's the bottom line, sabrinaSomeone was mistreating you.
Let's just that's it.
That's, that's full stop.
You didn't love yourself, ok,that's fine, you work on you.
Somebody was harming you and inthis deep dive of what was
Sabrina's contribution?
Sabrina's big mistake waswanting to love and be loved.
I don't call that a mistake, Icall that being a human being.
(15:21):
So Sabrina trying to saySabrina doesn't love herself.
Sabrina, this Sabrina, thisperson took advantage of a
situation, and that's the partthat's not okay.
And if we can stop theparagraph there, then people can
move from there.
Yes, that work on ourselves andunderstanding that we have a
right to be separate, individualhuman beings, and all that
stuff, that's the work of alifetime, sabrina, then we're
(15:42):
all going to meet our personwhen we're 89 years old.
I mean I'm getting close, that'sokay, and you know what that's?
Probably somewhere around 50 iswhen we should get into our
first relationship, because ittakes about that long to get our
inside house clean.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
It took me 47 years to get into a good relationship
and I also realized that onlinedating has created almost like
an online storefront fornarcissists.
My one relationship I was inthe person actually merged,
melded into the person that Iwas online.
So everything that I said myinterests were, they pretended
to be that exact person.
So when I met, I'm like, oh,this is my person.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Called mirroring and the narcissistic person.
Someone said this beautifullyto me.
They said they have a capacityto peel your face off.
Put it on them so you're seeingback everything you ever wanted
to hear.
And that technique of mirroringis actually something that
people are taught in whenthey're learning high-end
espionage, manipulation and allof that.
So that's what it is and wemisread that as empathy.
But what it is is that in manyways, a narcissistic person at
(16:46):
the beginning of a relationshipis like AI.
They're tailored to go up anddown with us.
That's the mirroring.
So they might do a full courtpress and you'll say, no one's
going to buy me a fancy dinnerand I'm going to want that.
Well then they're going tostart to figure out put a picnic
on the beach and so, before youknow it, they are shaping their
love bombing.
They're tailoring.
(17:06):
Again.
It's very AI to you.
I mean, that's how narcissisticpeople read them as being
empathic.
But they were paying attention.
But they were paying attentionto get in there and do whatever
reason.
You were good supply and theywant to secure that supply.
That's what that is and that'svery different than falling.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
One thing I do realize in all the times I tried
to walk away and it took Waytoo long.
I'm going to admit it took toolong for me to walk away, but I
realized the only way and pleasecorrect me if I'm wrong to
actually walk away from anarcissistic relationship is no
contact.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Okay, so I'm going to call you out again.
Okay, it didn't take you toolong, okay, information to feel
whole in your body, to feel safeenough to leave, to address
that trauma-bonded kind ofriding that roller coaster
experience with them.
So it took as long as it took.
(18:02):
Listen, we're never going tolive in a world where two weeks
into a relationship, someone'sgoing to know the person's
narcissistic Reena.
I still get played by newpeople I meet and friends.
I was going to ask you, you do,you do, because I still want to
care about you.
But then I'm like you know, youknow you never want to be like
it's almost like you're thinkingwait a minute, yeah, a couple
of children don't have to choose.
But also I'm like you justplayed me.
(18:22):
I'm making a video about that,you know.
So it's a more.
I think my own shrink told meshe's like I sometimes think you
get into these things for ideas.
I'm like no content.
But because we're human beings,we do want to connect, we do
want to be close.
I keep coming back to thatbecause that's the driver.
So it took you as long as ittook you, but we're not.
People are never going to getthere.
(18:42):
And if they do, two weeks andfour weeks in.
Then those are people who mayalso end up overcorrecting Right
, and I think that's thechallenge for survivors of
narcissistic relationship.
Either you're running in withreckless abandon or you're like
no, they said this one thingwrong, or they interrupted me
one time, or they didn't call meback in five minutes, or they
(19:04):
didn't want to wait in line.
Yeah, they don't want to waitin line, sabrina.
Sorry hon, you're going to haveto clean up that line behavior.
So those are the sorts ofthings that there that we,
there's an over-correction,under-correction, and that's why
I always tell people after arelationship with a narcissistic
person ends, there's only onepiece of guidance I can give you
need at least one year out, oneyear of no dating, no sex, no
(19:28):
make-out sessions, no flirtytexts, nothing.
That piece you said aboutloving yourself.
It's not even about lovingyourself.
It's about knowing who you areas a separate human being, what
you like, what you don't like,what your interests are, where
you like the thermostat set,what kind of cereal you'll like
to eat in the morning, becauseall of that was stolen from you.
You need to detox.
You need to not only detox, butyou need to know you and a lot
(19:50):
of people never do that in thefirst place, but certainly a
narcissistic relationship takesall of that away.
A year where you spendanniversary dates the way it
feels right to you, you travelalone, you spend time with
friends, you reconnect with yourlife.
Many people feel though I getthe complaint, dr Ramani I felt
alone for three years, so reallyI've been alone for three years
(20:11):
.
I said if that fool was in yourhouse, you were not alone for
three years.
You've been alone for threeyears.
I said if that fool was in yourhouse, you were not alone for
three years.
You've been alone for one month.
No, and every person I'veworked with who waited the year
said now I want to go longerbecause I'm actually really
enjoying life, and thenorganically if they meet someone
versus like it's been 365 days.
Can I go on the dating apps?
I'm actually not a fan ofdating apps.
For people who've been throughnarcissistic relationships, I
(20:32):
think it's accessible.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
It is, yeah, I think what for me?
Because I said that I was soembarrassed that I went through
this.
I even made a fake Instagramprofile so that I could follow
everything and so peoplewouldn't know, but to hear that
you've even been duped, I hateto say.
This kind of makes me feelbetter, because we all are, you
(20:54):
know, we all are.
It makes me feel a little bitbetter.
But I'm talking a lot aboutromantic relationships.
I know people haverelationships with their parents
, with a boss.
So, what happens when you can'tgo no contact with somebody like
that?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Sabrina, most people in narcissistic relationships
can't go no contact.
In fact, I guess probably half,maybe even more than half of
people can't leave theirintimate relationships with
narcissistic people for a wholevariety of reasons.
They may have minor childrentogether.
They may be financiallyinterdependent.
There may be cultural reasons.
There may be reasons of fear.
When you leave a narcissisticrelationship it can get really
(21:29):
difficult very quickly.
There could be, at the moresevere end, smear campaigns and
stalking.
Flying monkeys you know flyingmonkeys from.
Flying monkeys are those peoplewho are sort of doing the
narcissistic person's biddingand kind of getting into your
life and getting intel from you.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
A flying monkey is somebody that the narcissist
gets on their side to do thegossiping about you, to smear
you.
They're not doing it, so theydon't look like the bad guy
Correct Exactly and that's verycommon.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
So some people aren't prepared for that fallout.
So a lot of people don't go nocontact.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
It's a.
I actually think it's a bit ofa luxury to go no contact.
Yeah, so if someone is watchingthis and they suspect someone
in their life is a narcissist,can you recap exactly some of
the big signs?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
A person who's narcissistic has low empathy
variable empathy, I won't saythey have no empathy, it's just
sort of really low and it's kindof all over the place, right.
They believe they deservespecial treatment.
They believe the rules don'tapply to them.
They do believe the rules applyto everyone else, though, just
not them.
They're grandiose, arrogant,pathologically selfish.
(22:33):
They have an excessive need forpraise, validation and
admiration.
They need to be the center ofattention.
They can often feel like thevictim.
If things don't go exactly theway they want or they don't get
the thing they want, they're thevictim.
They've been wronged,everything's unfair to them, and
the way those traits show up ina relationship include
(22:54):
manipulation, gaslighting.
They're very dismissive, theyminimize other people's problems
.
They lie, they cheat, theybetray, they dominate, they
control, they shift blame.
They don't take responsibility.
That's how it shows up and whatit does to people.
It leaves them feelingself-blaming, confused, anxious,
can't sleep, concentrate,ruminate.
(23:17):
I was thinking about it.
I'm sure you were.
I lost so much weight Becauseit's so confusing, and so that's
why I do what I do, which is toshine a light on this and
really say again it's not you,that this is really a pattern.
I have your book right here, incase you were wondering.
I just put that out there.
It's not you.
This is a pattern and it worksfor them and we reward this
(23:38):
behavior.
And these people run ourcompanies and run our
governments and run everything.
They're much more likely to beleaders.
Narcissistic people make moremoney.
Narcissistic people have moreluck at dating, so they're kind
of winning.
They're the ones who move onthe quickest.
Well, they move on immediatelybecause they aren't going to
leave you unless they have newsupplies.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, they always have somebody waiting.
So I know that a lot of timespeople narcissists.
They sometimes cop to theproblem and say I'm going to get
help, I'm going to change, Ilove you.
I've never loved anyone likeyou, Not that I've heard that
before, but can narcissistschange so?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
to your other point that I'm going to change.
I'm going to go therapy.
That's called future fakingFuture faking.
So that's making a promise tokeep someone hanging around for
another three months, six months, one year, 50 years depends on
your time frame.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
But what if they really?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
want to change, do they?
I don't know.
So I would say to them I'mgoing to change.
I would say then you look at meand you tell me exactly how it
is.
You're going to change, and thething is the thing.
You need to happen.
They may not even understandwhat that is.
They're like I'll empty thedishwasher.
I'm like homie.
This is a lot more than thedishwasher.
(24:45):
That ship has sailed.
And so what this becomes,though, is that those promises
come and, sabrina,understandably because people
are invested in theserelationships, they stick around
the first feature fake, thesecond feature fake.
In fact, there's a pattern inthese relationships called
hoovering, where you get pulledback in.
Of course, you do love thisperson, you're connected to this
(25:07):
person.
Now, can they change?
That's probably the most loadedquestion, and I'd say probably
not enough to make a difference.
Right, does that make sense?
So I've worked withnarcissistic clients.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I have PTSD right now .
I'm like sweating.
I'm sorry, I'm past it, thankGod.
But the hoovering I forgotabout that word.
That's a thing, that's a realthing, because when you
hoovering, I noticed that whenyou finally really mean goodbye,
they turn it on even harder.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Hoovering can be a dream too, because for people
who didn't feel chosen in theirlives, hoovering is like
actually they really want me.
And where hoovering gets to bea hot mess is if they move on to
someone else and then they'relike baby.
I didn't know how good I had itwith you.
You will have to be made ofsome kind of titanium to not
fall for that right, and sothat's what I work with helping
(25:57):
people through Like they had noproblem betraying you once.
I'll take the bet that they'regoing to do it again.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I say once a cheater, always a repeater, and I really
do believe that If you're in arelationship and you do that to
someone, I think most likely ofcourse there's Always a case
that that might not happen, butI think that somebody who's a
narcissist is always going to dothe same behavior.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Well, narcissistic people do tend to cheat because
they tend to betray, becausethey need new supply and they
actually have no empathy for you.
So the combination and they'reentitled like, well, why
shouldn't I be able to have sexwith the hot girl I met in Vegas
?
Like, it doesn't seem like aproblem to me.
You're making too big a dealout of it.
So you get gaslighted, they gettheir supply, they minimize the
harm it does.
It's all the dynamics show up.
But can they change?
(26:39):
I've had narcissistic clientswho would show up 30 minutes
late to session and say, well,can't we go the full hour?
I said no, there's someoneright behind you.
Like, you get 20 minutes, Ineed a minute to go to the
bathroom, like, and then no.
And they'd look offended, like,well, I'm paying you a lot for
a certain period of time.
They'd want to text me onChristmas.
They'd want callbacks at 5 am.
(26:59):
You know you have to noboundaries, no boundaries, right
.
So over time they wouldn't dothat.
They'd actually show up to thesession on time, they would pay
the bill on time, they would nottext me at those times and
wouldn't get enraged if theydidn't get a response.
Is that change?
Sure, would that be enoughchange to make a difference in a
close relationship?
No, and so the but I thinkwhere people get frustrated,
(27:20):
they went to therapy.
I was just going to say that.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I thought that narcissists don't go to therapy.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And they do.
And they often go to therapybecause they feel like a victim
my wife is so mean to me, mythis is so mean to me, what's
happening to me so unfair.
And as a therapist, you're like, okay, well, let's work a
little bit.
I can understand it.
You're hurting, but when youtry to do any emotionally deep
work or accountability, thewhole thing falls apart and then
they stop coming or you're abad therapist.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
I remember going to therapy with that said person
and they would turn it on to thetherapist and the therapist
would think that they were thebest because they were just as
charming to them.
So if you're in a relationshipat home with someone and you're
going to therapy and thetherapist is duped too, like how
do you make sense of it all?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, so it's tricky because a lot of therapists
aren't trained in this and so alot of what I do in the world is
I train therapists to say look,be careful.
When you see couples therapyand you see one person who
almost looks deflated and theother one's all charming,
charismatic, pay attention tothat dynamic, because a lot of
people will say, well, he's witha dud, you know, she's like a
(28:22):
deflated balloon and he seems tobe on top of it.
And the narcissistic personwill compliment the therapist
yes, yes, you have to beseasoned.
I'm like there's nothing.
You can listen, you know.
Oh, you go.
I went to some great schoolshere.
I'm like sit down, you have tobe that clear.
But if you're green, if you'renew, if you don't know what
you're dealing with, it takes aminute and they don't teach this
(28:43):
in school.
So I'm not mad at therapists fornot getting this, but the
amount of change that anarcissistic person would not
only have to make but sustainforever.
Listen, how many people out inthe world have gone on a diet
and not been able to change whatthey eat and before you know it
(29:03):
, you're back to Hershey bars inbed.
Maybe that's just you know whatI'm saying Like we, we slide
back.
And for a narcissistic person,if you don't get all the way
down to that core insecurity,that core dysregulation, that
core I need the world to tell meI'm the most special deal with
the tantruming child that theyare, which is almost impossible
in therapy then they're notgoing to make the change that
you need for a relationship tobe successful.
So when I work with couples andI've worked with couples and I
work with individuals I've saidto them, to the person who's not
(29:26):
narcissistic in therelationship, how much what's
going to be enough here, becauseyou're never getting this,
we're going to get this.
What part of this could workfor you?
Because not everyone can leaveand for some people the
adjustment will have to be.
Could they not cheat?
So in my face?
Oh my yeah.
Those are the compromises peoplehave to make, and so this is no
(29:47):
joke.
So can they change?
Not enough to make a difference.
And like a rubber band, right,you can pull a rubber band out
this far, but unless someone'sholding both ends, as soon as
you put it down, it goes back toits original size.
That's how personality worksand, above all, that's how
narcissism works.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
There's not one person in my life that hasn't
had to deal with some sort ofnarcissistic relationship, so
that's why having thisconversation to me is so
powerful.
But this relationship has mademe feel like I'm not alone, that
you understand and that it'snot you.
And if you are at home and youare dealing with this at all,
this is a must read so you don'tfeel alone.
Because I think that whenyou're in this relationship, you
(30:25):
feel so alone and you feel socrazy that this will feel like
this will be like a littlepillow at night to keep you safe
and warm.
So for people you mentionedpeople not being able to leave a
relationship what tips couldyou give to someone to cope?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Whether you can or can't leave.
I think some of them areuniversal.
It's a little bit harder whenyou can't leave.
Some things are number one youneed support.
You need some people in theworld who see and get what
you're going through.
If you're fortunate, you have agood therapist, if maybe you're
in a support group community.
We have things like the DrRomney Network.
I have a healing program thatpeople can go and recognize the
network, yeah, yeah.
So the Dr Romney Network iswonderful because it's an
(31:00):
interactive network where everyweek we have guests, sometimes
we have a show.
That's all questions.
They can ask questions, butthere's also that sense of
community amongst everyonehearing whatever our topic of
the week is.
And then we also have a healingprogram where people get
community support and we do deepdives every month.
And community support and we dodeep dives every month.
So and I'm not the only one,there's other programs out there
.
Figure out what works for you.
Being in therapy helps, havingpeople in your life who get it,
(31:24):
reading, educating yourself.
You need validation, you needsupport.
That's number one.
Number two is recognize there'sa you separate from the
relationship, and I always sayto folks you kind of need to
learn how to phone it into therelationship.
You may not be able to leave,but recognize gray rocking.
Yellow rocking, which basicallymeans yellow rocking, is way
better than gray rocking.
(31:45):
Tell me all about this yellowrocking.
I love that color.
It's sort of like not givingthe narcissist supply.
Yellow rocking is where we puta little bit of us into it, like
yeah, no, it's going to rainthis weekend, it's gotten, so
(32:06):
they're watching something weird.
My friend, tina Swithin, cameup with that term.
She has a focus on helpingpeople through narcissistic
divorces and she found that kidsfelt a little weirded out when
(32:26):
they watch parents giving oneword to each other.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I have to tell you that I mentioned that I had a
fake Instagram, a Finsta account, to learn all about the
narcissistic recovery right, andwhat I love about you having
the Dr Ramani Network is thecommunity, because I think that
when you feel so alone, you needto talk to other people who are
going through it, to just havethat validation.
(32:49):
Yes, so thank you for that,thank you for your book, thank
you for being here, thank youand thank you to Terry Cole and
Kat Cora.
Today's intention was tonourish our mind and our body,
so I hope we inspired you toredesign your life as well.
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