Are you someone who can't say no without feeling guilty? Do you find yourself constantly doing too much for others while neglecting your own needs? In this candid, unfiltered conversation, bestselling author Terri Cole ("Boundary Boss" and "Too Much") joins with celebrity chef Cat Cora to tackle the boundary issues that keep so many of us—especially women—stuck in patterns of overgiving and resentment.
The conversation delivers practical, actionable advice you can implement immediately. Learn how to conduct a "resentment inventory" to identify exactly where boundaries are needed in your life. Discover why the simple act of "buying time" before saying yes can revolutionize your relationships. And perhaps most importantly, understand that setting boundaries doesn't require being cold or mean—you can establish healthy limits with both compassion and clarity.
Whether you're struggling with people-pleasing tendencies or simply want more energy and authenticity in your life, this conversation offers a roadmap to the freedom that comes when you finally give yourself permission to matter as much as everyone else.
To watch the segment with Terri Cole, Cat Cora and Sabrina, The Sabrina Soto Show:
https://www.sabrinasoto.com/the-sabrina-soto-show/
Connect with Sabrina on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/sabrina_soto
Connect with Terri Cole here:
https://www.terricole.com/
Terri Cole on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/terricole/#
Connect with Cat Cora
https://catcora.com/pages/about-cat
Cat Cora on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/catcora/#
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to a special edition of Redesigning Life.
Many of you know I have a newshow called the Sabrina Soto
Show Out, and I was able toinvite amazing experts in their
fields just to come in and havea great conversation.
But because it's a show, wehave to edit it down.
Now, these conversations, theywere so good that I wanted to
(00:20):
publish the raw, uneditedversion, and that's what this
episode is.
You're going to hear action andyou may hear a crew in the
background, but I wanted topublish this so you can really
listen to the entire chat.
So here you go, ladies.
Well, hello.
I'm thrilled to have you bothhere.
Terry, you and I have beenfriends for years now and I
(00:42):
think you are incredible.
You have the book Now Too Much.
And Boundary Boss, I do, kat, Imean, I just look up to you so
much.
Thank you, not just because ofyour career, but like what you
stand for, who you are, and Iknow that we have a little bit
in common because of, you know,not having the best boundaries
sometimes in our personal life.
(01:03):
So let's get started, because Ineed all the tips that you can
give to, I think, both of us.
So tell us first like the bookis about.
It's called Too Much and I feellike I am too much, a lot, yeah
, extra, because I feel like Idon't know how to say no and
feel without feeling guilty.
(01:23):
Do you feel like you have thatas well?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I do.
I think I've grown a little bitfrom that.
I think that I actually am aboundary setter and I think
sometimes I probably set toomany boundaries.
But is there a thing you saidtoo many?
I don't set enough, I do set.
I do set a lot of boundaries.
But that comes from you, comesfrom childhood trauma and not
(01:47):
trusting and losing trust at ayoung age and feeling scared a
lot.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yes, I think it is a thing, because that was the
question, because you can haveboundaries that are too porous,
which is what you're talkingabout, which is too loose, or
they can be too rigid and that'swhat you're describing where
it's sort of like creating morewalls rather than boundaries for
safety, and a lot of times it'sthe illusion of safety.
But I think women in particularstruggle with this, at least.
(02:15):
I mean, I've been a therapistfor almost three decades and in
my therapy practice, nobodyteaches anyone how to set
boundaries, the language ofboundaries, how to do it.
Nobody teaches anyone how toset boundaries, the language of
boundaries, how to do it.
And so that's why I wrote myfirst book, because all my
clients were suffering in thesame way that I used to when I
was younger.
Because you know what do theysay.
You teach what you most need tolearn.
(02:35):
So I feel like this is avaluable conversation for anyone
who feels like it's hard to sayno or who is doing too much in
their lives, Because are you notdoing all the things for all
the people?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yes, I cannot do them because if I don't do them they
don't get done.
But I was thinking about you inthe shower this morning and
that sounds really weird.
But I was thinking about yourfirst book, boundary Boss, and
how my sister it changed herlife because she didn't have
boundaries.
But if I'm being really honestand transparent about what I was
thinking about, is I kind oflike that she doesn't have
boundaries when it comes to me.
(03:09):
I just hate that she doesn'thave boundaries when it comes to
other people.
Is that a normal way to feel?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I mean it is because here's the thing, in a way you
benefit right from our friendswho are boundary disasters.
We know they'll always show up,we know they're always willing
to do whatever it is.
So it kind of makes sense.
You don't necessarily want yoursister to have good boundaries
with you, just other people inher life yes, but in reality you
do want her to have boundaries.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Of course I gave her your book.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah Well, there you go Now.
The jig is up now, that'scorrect.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Now I also think that when women create too many
boundaries, unfortunately we'relabeled the B word, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And not even let's be clear, though, it's not even
too many when women createboundaries, it can be perceived
as being aggressive, because ifyou look at the way that we've
been indoctrinated into thesystem, what is femininity?
Be compliant, smile, hey,little girl.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Exactly, don't talk too much, don't talk too loud,
don't you know?
Tell people what you reallythink.
You know, I think that that's,you know, part of being in a
male dominated industry.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yes, can you talk about that?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
That's something that I struggled with a lot
throughout my career because,you know, I am someone who sets
boundaries and I think that thatcame from my parents because
they, you know, I am someone whosets boundaries and I think
that that came from my parentsbecause they were, they set
healthy boundaries andcommunicated, and I saw that
example.
But also, um, again going backto childhood trauma, I said it
because I didn't trust anybody.
You know, I lost trust at areally young age.
(04:38):
So, um, and that just came fromsexual abuse and, I'll just be
honest, sexual abuse from acousin, and so my trust was shot
from six years old.
So I really started settingboundaries pretty stringently
and I think that I've tried tobe a little, you know, I've
tried to learn, also because Ilike to self-help some and I
(05:03):
like to learn, also because Ilike to self-help some and I
like to learn.
But it's hard because if I startfeeling uncomfortable with
something, I will say I'm not OK, but I have learned to say I'm
not OK with this, but I'll be OKwith this, right, you know, to
try to balance that out some,because there was a time when it
was so stringent because of myfears, yes, and I didn't want to
(05:24):
get hurt and I didn't wantpeople to hurt me, so I set
boundaries.
But I've tried to learn overthe years and I'm not perfect
and I'm going to read all yourbooks and I want to hear from,
from you know, what you thinkabout that, because sometimes I
also as far as doing too muchhaving six teenage boys, I want
(05:44):
to be.
As far as doing too much havingsix teenage boys, I want to be.
I want to do everything foreverybody and I do tend to still
put everybody before myself.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
I think what you're talking about.
There's a hyper independencethat can come from when you have
, when you don't trust people,like you said, having disordered
boundaries, being a highfunctioning codependent, being a
(06:21):
high-functioning codependent.
All of that comes withhyper-independence, which in one
way, is great codependency,where you can count on your wife
, she can count on you, I cancount on my husband, right?
You can count on your friendsbecause we allow other people to
do things for us in our livesand I find most high-functioning
codependents, or people withdisordered boundaries, are
(06:43):
really good at giving.
I know you are, I know you areand really crappy at receiving.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, you just hit the nail on the
head.
It's very hard.
I think that that is very true.
It is.
I think that having healthyrelationships has helped me.
Okay, feel like, okay, I can, Ican let go, I can let go, you
know.
But there's still times whenI'm like, uh, I feel that I'm
(07:14):
not feeling, I'm feeling nervous, I'm feeling scared, I'm
feeling like some something'sgoing to happen, where then I
start up and then Iover-communicate everything.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I can I then?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I over communicate everything.
I can't I over communicateeverything.
Is there such thing as overcommunicating?
Is there?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I mean, yeah, really.
I mean, it depends on, I mean,if you're texting someone every
five minutes to be like, are yousure you're going to be there?
Are you sure you're going to bethere?
Did you do it?
Did you do it right?
Yeah, so I think that there's awhole control issue that we're
like not talking about, but itreally is the foundation Any
kind of codependency is built on.
It's an overt or covert desireto control other people's
(07:55):
outcomes, or other people'sfeeling states, other people's
situations and especially withchildren, it can be so or with
people who work for us.
It can be really tempting tojust want to do everything for
everyone because A we're worriedthey're not going to do it
right.
Let's be honest.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
But they don't.
That's the truth.
That is number one.
I think that's number one onthe list is.
I feel like that I mean and noteverybody, there's a couple,
you know.
There's people in our livesthat we do trust in that sense.
But there are a lot of timeswhere you feel like and I know
this, I do this as a helicoptermom, and I know I'm a helicopter
mom and I'll say it, I'm goingthrough college applications
(08:32):
right now and I'm like okay,we've got to make sure you sit
down.
Are you going to sit down?
Okay, at 3 o'clock.
I mean, it's like and I know Ido that I'm guilty because I
want them to succeed and I wantthem to do it right.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I would be the same way, terry.
Like, what advice would yougive if you don't like we're
going to sit down at this timeand do the and sit with them and
do like the form with them.
How can we tackle somethinglike what Kat's going through in
a more healthy way, instead ofmicromanaging and making Like,
where do we start?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, we have to know how we feel right.
So part of it is before.
Whether you're talking aboutmicromanaging kids or something
else, the way that you can finda GPS to get you there is doing
a resentment inventory, becausewhere you're feeling resentment
is probably where you'reovergiving or overfunctioning,
or maybe a boundary needs to beput in place.
(09:23):
So this is something easy thatpeople can do literally right
now.
You can bring to mind where areyou feeling resentful in your
life.
So let's say it's with a sister.
I feel resentful because shecomes to my apartment and she
uses her keys to borrow myclothes and not tell me that was
a real live example from mylife.
Uses her keys to borrow myclothes and not tell me.
That was a real live examplefrom my life.
I'm like asking for a friendand so now I'd have to look and
(09:48):
go.
Okay, I'd write that down asthe example.
But I'd have to look and sayall right, what is my 50% of
this situation?
Well, my 50% was not sayinganything about it, just being
pissed off or just not gettingback to her, like being passive,
aggressive rather than direct.
So now you go.
Okay, what is the fix?
I need to have a conversation Ineed to tell my sister if she
wants to continue to have thekey to my apartment, she will
(10:08):
need to ask me to borrow mystuff.
And that is how you go frombeing resentful and doing
nothing about it and beingresentful and actually problem
solving.
Because this is with boundariesthey will not set themselves.
No one else knows yourpreference, your desire, your
limit or your deal breaker.
That's on you, that's on you,that's on me, and if we don't
(10:30):
express those things to thepeople in our lives, they don't
know us.
We're resentful because, as yousaid before when we were
talking like we write a wholestory about why, oh, my sister's
not even asking me, because shedoesn't give a crap, because
she's entitled, because shethinks she owns my clothes or
whatever it is.
And the reality is people arebusy, people get lost in their
(10:51):
own lives.
There's a million reasons, butit is our responsibility to
assert our boundaries and ourboundary preferences with the
people in our lives, and ourrelationships are so much better
for it.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
I know you say a lot that we basically train people
to like how to treat us.
But taking that one stepfurther, after you set the
boundaries what I deal with?
Because I read your book, thenI feel like, yeah, I got this.
Then I set a boundary and thenI feel guilty, then I send it
back.
So how do you deal with theguilt after you set the boundary
?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
First of all, that's a great question.
You have to expect that you'regoing to feel something.
You might get pushback from thepeople in your life, just as
you were saying.
I like it when my sister has noboundaries with me, but not
with other people.
So relationships are like adance and when you change your
steps, the other person is goingto notice.
Yeah, so when you feel guilty,first of all, I'm going to ask
(11:44):
you to not turn away from thatfeeling.
I'm going to ask you tochallenge that feeling.
So much of the time, guilt is ahabituated experience where we
don't even have a good reason tofeel guilty and we just feel
guilty.
Yes, we don't even have a goodreason to feel guilty and we
just feel guilty.
Yes, so we're going to lovinglyand with compassion, question
do I actually have a reason tofeel guilty or am I just so used
(12:06):
to feeling guilty that it is ahabituated behavior, not a real
behavior that is warranted forthis situation?
Because I think that most womenwe are raised and praised to be
self-abandoning, codependents.
Yes, and it is not what we wantto teach our daughters or our
sons.
What does that mean?
Being abandoning codependent?
(12:27):
Meaning that we will abandonwhat we need, what is in our
highest and best for everyoneelse.
We are endlessly taking one forthe team, right?
If somebody is going to,someone always needs something
more than we do, because whenyou're a high-functioning
codependent, you're all like.
Our mantra is I got it, I gotit, I got it.
It's not a big deal, and it hasto be me, because we don't
(12:48):
think that other people will doit the way that we want it done.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
A lot of times, Are you in my head?
Yes, but this is why you'rehere.
That's good, that's really good.
You're here because this iswhat happens every day.
I love to cook so much.
It is my way to end the day, togive back to myself, but I give
myself away all day long.
By the time it's dinner time,I'm so exhausted.
I really don't have the time.
Olivia and I do take out a lot,and I want you to teach me how
(13:13):
to do a table of one, but I wantto tell you, in the heels of
what you just said, of somethingthat happened two days ago.
I created a boundary.
I felt such guilt and I did thewrong thing.
I called my mother for adviceand I realized that she's the
one who taught me codependency.
And she told me oh, youshouldn't do that.
You're going to feel guilty.
And you know what I did Iabandoned myself.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
So can you talk about who to go for when you do feel
guilt.
Well, part of it is do not goto the person who taught you all
the dysfunction so we're justgoing to get away from the
family of origin, even though welove them.
But that's like the scene ofthe crime.
So how about we don't go backthere?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Sorry, mom.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
How about we just go to healthy friends who are
therapists or who have goodboundaries?
And part of it is before weeven do that.
You have to acknowledge toyourself that how you feel, what
you think and what you wantmatters.
And, sabrina, it's got tomatter to you more than what
anyone else wants, thinks orfeels.
(14:11):
Cooking makes me feel good.
If it's the way that I unwindat night, if it's important to
me, if it nourishes me, then I'mgoing to set up my schedule so
that I'm not going to give itaway.
And when someone asks me to doa last minute dinner, I'm going
(14:32):
to say no because I want to behome.
And I think we have to beproactive with our boundaries.
You know that you have atendency to give yourself away,
so be proactive with yourschedule.
Write it in at 4.30.
I'm starting dinner, or 5 orwhenever.
You know what I mean Like.
Actually put it in yourcalendar, because that's
something that you're going tobe so much better for everyone
in your life.
Because what happens when wegive ourselves away?
(14:54):
Eventually we get bitter.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, who me what.
What I do like about this yournew book too much is that you do
have little tips for people inthose little boxes of just or
even some of them areaffirmations.
So if I did everything in yourbook and I created a lot of
boundaries, tell me how a lifecan transform.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Okay.
So first of all, let's make adistinction, not a lot of
boundaries.
If I set healthy boundariesregularly, early and often, what
would my life look like or howwould I feel?
Well, part of it is, you wouldbe less exhausted.
So there's a real practicalityto healthy boundaries, where we
just have more expansion in life.
(15:39):
We have more inner peacebecause we're not saying yes
when we want to say no under theguise of being nice, because
first of all, obviously, when wereally look at it, it isn't
being nice, it's misleadingpeople, it's giving corrupted
data to the people in our life.
So people don't really know usbecause they think we're doing
it because we want to, becausewe said yes, because we didn't
know how to say no.
(16:00):
So on the other side of thosedisordered boundaries is much
better relationships, much morebandwidth.
You gain so much bandwidth backof your own energy when you are
not doing things you don't wantto do all the time, when you're
being more honest, when yourfeelings are hurt or when you
want something, you're assertingyourself.
(16:21):
So I feel like the life thatyou're meant to live is on the
other side of healthy boundariesand that when we don't have
them and I've seen this in mypractice.
You can live your whole lifeand people don't really know you
because you're just checkingboxes.
And I've had women come into mytherapy practice in their sixth
or seventh decade of life beinglike okay, I've done it all,
(16:43):
kids are on track, everyone'sgoing to Ivy League schools, we
got some money.
Why do I feel so empty?
And I'm like because you builtyour whole life on checking
boxes, saying yes when youwanted to say no, not asserting
who you really were, and peopledon't know you.
It can be an existential crisis.
So we don't want that.
Yes, we do want to stand up andhave our own backs, and that's
(17:06):
what it means to be healthy withboundaries is that you can
count on you to actually haveyour own back, and you're not.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So vulnerable to other people and don't you think
that's really healthy for yourfamily and your friends and
people you associate with?
Because you're actually beinghonest yeah right, You're not
being dishonest about what youreally feel, which builds
resentment, we know, and I meanI think that one area that I
(17:37):
think that where my boundarieshave been healthy is that I know
my kids come to me because theyknow I will be honest with them
.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yes, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I'll be honest, I'm not going to be and not like I'm
in a loving way and a nurturingway and in a healthy way, but
I'm not going to say, oh yeah,you should go do that because I
know that's what you really wantto do.
It's like they come to mebecause they really they respect
my, my honesty, right.
And the boundaries of like youknow what I love that you want
(18:01):
to do that, but right now that'snot really.
You know that's not doableright now.
That's not.
Maybe later, that's fine, it'sfine.
No, I just I feel like that Iknow what you're talking about
feeling guilty Because you'relike God, I'm like I gotta be
the bad guy here.
And set the boundaries.
You know all the time and youdo, you feel so guilty and you
(18:23):
feel so like you're.
You're the bad guy always.
You know, because you're theones that you're the one that is
setting some boundaries or atleast communicating whether
you're always right or not Justcommunicating how I feel.
I feel like, just from myperspective, that this doesn't
feel good to me.
You know, this I need, we needto talk about it or communicate
(18:44):
about it.
And I think that that's where Ithink I struggle too is that I
do set boundaries but I do feelguilty, and that was a great
point.
But I mean, that was a greatpoint because I think,
especially women, I think wealways feel guilty because we
communicate and sometimes weover-communicate, but I don't
ever feel like that's been a badthing.
I think when I don'tcommunicate something and I hold
(19:06):
it in is when I start theresentment and it just kind of
boils.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, we have to look at, though, why we're feeling
guilty.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
And I think that that is a really important part of
this process is should youactually or exactly like did you
do something wrong?
So much of the time it's justlearned behavior.
It's not even about somethingwe've done.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Is it safe to say that the fertilizer or soil that
grows high functioningcodependence is always childhood
trauma, I mean listen, Iwouldn't say it would have to be
even trauma, like the realityis raising daughters in a
patriarchal system.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
We were taught to turn that frown around.
If you don't have anything niceto say, don't say anything at
all, like nobody cared about howyou really thought they were.
Like be compliant, please Benice.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, I was raised because my mom was a really
strong woman.
She was raised in a militaryfamily.
She got her doctorate innursing in Mississippi when that
wasn't even accepted, so sheand she was a feminist.
But there were certain thingswhere my mom would be like, okay
, and I could see that she wascomplying and it was just how
she was raised, and then thatwas.
(20:12):
You know, sometimes she wouldsay to me Kat, you know, don't
embellish so much, cause I've,you know, like I love an
exaggeration, I do.
I mean, you know I'd be ontelevision and be like, well, I
did this.
You know, I'm embellished alittle bit.
You know, she's like you'reembellishing everything.
I said, mom, that's just,that's just, that's just
(20:34):
television, that's okay, youknow so.
And she was an amazing nursepractitioner and had a doctorate
and everything.
But she was just demure andlike don't be too, don't, don't,
don't beat your drum so loud,just be, you know.
And so there was this wholejuxtaposition that I grew up
with.
It was so confusing.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, but it's funny because what you say about your
mom, I think about you.
When you and I spoke and yousaid that you have a problem
setting boundaries, I'm like youKat Cora has problems Like
you're such a badass.
I don't think I said I did.
Oh, I said you did, god sorry.
Oh right, okay, that's where Iwas wrong.
I mean safe to say, though, foranyone listening, it's about
(21:08):
taking baby steps, right, terry?
Yes, so if you can give anyonelistening or watching this some
tips, takeaway tips of how toreally set boundaries, create a
different scenario in their life, what would it be?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Well, the first thing is what we already said, which
is to do the resentmentinventory, because you need to
know where you need a boundary.
That's the beginning.
Another thing is I think wereally have to stop the auto yes
.
So if you're someone who's justa people-pleasing yes person,
even if you're veryhigh-functioning, we have to
stop that auto yes.
So how you can do it is you canactually buy time.
(21:41):
So, instead of someone asks youto do something, so I say
everybody watching, take thenext seven days, no immediate
yeses to anything and we learnto buy time, which can just
sound like oh hey, I need tocheck with my partner or I need
to see if I have time on mycalendar.
I need to look at my work to seeif I can help you with that
project depending on my workload, to see if I can help you with
(22:02):
that project depending on myworkload, because what happens
is, and then you can say I'llgive you an answer by the end of
the week.
I'll let you know by tomorrow,when we buy time, instead of
giving an automatic yes, thatwe're going to regret a lot of
times.
Now we have all of thisexpansion to come back and give
an honest no and we can startwith something positive, right?
If you're saying no to someonethat you actually care about or
(22:22):
you like, you can say I lovethat you think of me.
That is so great, and I'm notavailable on Wednesday, but I
hope you guys have a great time.
So I feel like there's so muchfear around saying no.
But we can always setboundaries with compassion and
care, a little bit of heat if weneed to, but generally speaking
(22:44):
, you don't have to be bitchy toset boundaries, right?
You know something?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
you did yesterday.
Yesterday you sent me a bunchof questions and I was working
and I had that knee jerkreaction of having to get back
to you.
But I really couldn't because Iwas working.
And you said at the end, youdon't have to get back to me
right now.
And I felt this like reliefcome over me when you said that
and I realized that it's thatknee-jerk reaction of having to
(23:06):
get back.
But I feel like it's the dayand age of this digital age that
we're always on our phones andconstantly having communication
with everyone and that's whatprogrammed us to feel that way.
But buying time, I think, forme, is going to be a huge game
changer.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yes, Because not everybody feels compelled to get
right back.
That's just a lot of times,when you're a high functioning
codependent, you feel you don'twant people waiting.
We're so dialed into how otherpeople feel and we're worried.
I don't want them to think, Idon't want them to feel.
So if you ever have thosethoughts, I don't want them to
think, I don't want them to feel.
You know, know, you need toback up and get to your own side
(23:42):
of the street, because you areonly responsible for what you
think and how you feel.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
One of the things that I've been doing and I know
that that is the best advice isto take a pause, because I don't
think we do that at all, and Ithink that that is such great
advice for people, especiallypeople that are yes, yes, yes,
yes, yes is one thing that I'vestarted doing in text, because
we do that a lot with text,where that's how we communicate,
(24:07):
a lot is, I'll say at the endof it, like no pressure, like no
pressure, like you know if.
But again you're managingsomeone else.
That's not a good thing.
I thought that was a good thing.
I thought I was like that was.
I was about to be like okay,look what I do, look what I do.
Yeah, I do this.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
I say no pressure, you're still managing someone
else's feelings.
What I want to know is what dowe, how do we protect ourselves?
Yes, so you can then say I'mgoing to dinner now, so I'm
jumping off Meaning, so yourelieve yourself from feeling
obligated to get back to someone.
So those are the things that wehave to worry about, not
necessarily making someone elsefeel OK, that's good, ok, see,
(24:48):
that's what we still have to do.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
It's you know, we're learning.
That's right.
We're a work in progress.
We're a work in progress,correct?
So, with that said, what Ilearned today is that we can buy
time.
No auto.
Yeses that there's going to beguilt, but it's baby steps.
Correct anything I'm missing?
Okay, good cat, you are makinga sweet potato zoodle stir fry
(25:11):
terry.
Do you want to stay?
I do, let's go.
I'm hungry.
Yeah, I'm star.
All right, conversation got me,got my appetite going.
Welcome to a special edition of Redesigning Life.
Many of you know I have a newshow called the Sabrina Soto
Show Out, and I was able toinvite amazing experts in their
fields just to come in and havea great conversation.
But because it's a show, wehave to edit it down.
Now, these conversations, theywere so good that I wanted to
(00:20):
publish the raw, uneditedversion, and that's what this
episode is.
You're going to hear action andyou may hear a crew in the
background, but I wanted topublish this so you can really
listen to the entire chat.
So here you go, ladies.
Well, hello.
I'm thrilled to have you bothhere.
Terry, you and I have beenfriends for years now and I
(00:42):
think you are incredible.
You have the book Now Too Much.
And Boundary Boss, I do, kat, Imean, I just look up to you so
much.
Thank you, not just because ofyour career, but like what you
stand for, who you are, and Iknow that we have a little bit
in common because of, you know,not having the best boundaries
sometimes in our personal life.
(01:03):
So let's get started, because Ineed all the tips that you can
give to, I think, both of us.
So tell us first like the bookis about.
It's called Too Much and I feellike I am too much, a lot, yeah
, extra, because I feel like Idon't know how to say no and
feel without feeling guilty.
(01:23):
Do you feel like you have thatas well?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I do.
I think I've grown a little bitfrom that.
I think that I actually am aboundary setter and I think
sometimes I probably set toomany boundaries.
But is there a thing you saidtoo many?
I don't set enough, I do set.
I do set a lot of boundaries.
But that comes from you, comesfrom childhood trauma and not
(01:47):
trusting and losing trust at ayoung age and feeling scared a
lot.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yes, I think it is a thing, because that was the
question, because you can haveboundaries that are too porous,
which is what you're talkingabout, which is too loose, or
they can be too rigid and that'swhat you're describing where
it's sort of like creating morewalls rather than boundaries for
safety, and a lot of times it'sthe illusion of safety.
But I think women in particularstruggle with this, at least.
(02:15):
I mean, I've been a therapistfor almost three decades and in
my therapy practice, nobodyteaches anyone how to set
boundaries, the language ofboundaries, how to do it.
Nobody teaches anyone how toset boundaries, the language of
boundaries, how to do it.
And so that's why I wrote myfirst book, because all my
clients were suffering in thesame way that I used to when I
was younger.
Because you know what do theysay.
You teach what you most need tolearn.
(02:35):
So I feel like this is avaluable conversation for anyone
who feels like it's hard to sayno or who is doing too much in
their lives, Because are you notdoing all the things for all
the people?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yes, I cannot do them because if I don't do them they
don't get done.
But I was thinking about you inthe shower this morning and
that sounds really weird.
But I was thinking about yourfirst book, boundary Boss, and
how my sister it changed herlife because she didn't have
boundaries.
But if I'm being really honestand transparent about what I was
thinking about, is I kind oflike that she doesn't have
boundaries when it comes to me.
(03:09):
I just hate that she doesn'thave boundaries when it comes to
other people.
Is that a normal way to feel?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I mean it is because here's the thing, in a way you
benefit right from our friendswho are boundary disasters.
We know they'll always show up,we know they're always willing
to do whatever it is.
So it kind of makes sense.
You don't necessarily want yoursister to have good boundaries
with you, just other people inher life yes, but in reality you
do want her to have boundaries.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Of course I gave her your book.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yeah Well, there you go Now.
The jig is up now, that'scorrect.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Now I also think that when women create too many
boundaries, unfortunately we'relabeled the B word, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And not even let's be clear, though, it's not even
too many when women createboundaries, it can be perceived
as being aggressive, because ifyou look at the way that we've
been indoctrinated into thesystem, what is femininity?
Be compliant, smile, hey,little girl.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Exactly, don't talk too much, don't talk too loud,
don't you know?
Tell people what you reallythink.
You know, I think that that's,you know, part of being in a
male dominated industry.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yes, can you talk about that?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
That's something that I struggled with a lot
throughout my career because,you know, I am someone who sets
boundaries and I think that thatcame from my parents because
they, you know, I am someone whosets boundaries and I think
that that came from my parentsbecause they were, they set
healthy boundaries andcommunicated, and I saw that
example.
But also, um, again going backto childhood trauma, I said it
because I didn't trust anybody.
You know, I lost trust at areally young age.
(04:38):
So, um, and that just came fromsexual abuse and, I'll just be
honest, sexual abuse from acousin, and so my trust was shot
from six years old.
So I really started settingboundaries pretty stringently
and I think that I've tried tobe a little, you know, I've
tried to learn, also because Ilike to self-help some and I
(05:03):
like to learn, also because Ilike to self-help some and I
like to learn.
But it's hard because if I startfeeling uncomfortable with
something, I will say I'm not OK, but I have learned to say I'm
not OK with this, but I'll be OKwith this, right, you know, to
try to balance that out some,because there was a time when it
was so stringent because of myfears, yes, and I didn't want to
(05:24):
get hurt and I didn't wantpeople to hurt me, so I set
boundaries.
But I've tried to learn overthe years and I'm not perfect
and I'm going to read all yourbooks and I want to hear from,
from you know, what you thinkabout that, because sometimes I
also as far as doing too muchhaving six teenage boys, I want
(05:44):
to be.
As far as doing too much havingsix teenage boys, I want to be.
I want to do everything foreverybody and I do tend to still
put everybody before myself.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
I think what you're talking about.
There's a hyper independencethat can come from when you have
, when you don't trust people,like you said, having disordered
boundaries, being a highfunctioning codependent, being a
(06:21):
high-functioning codependent.
All of that comes withhyper-independence, which in one
way, is great codependency,where you can count on your wife
, she can count on you, I cancount on my husband, right?
You can count on your friendsbecause we allow other people to
do things for us in our livesand I find most high-functioning
codependents, or people withdisordered boundaries, are
(06:43):
really good at giving.
I know you are, I know you areand really crappy at receiving.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, you just hit the nail on the
head.
It's very hard.
I think that that is very true.
It is.
I think that having healthyrelationships has helped me.
Okay, feel like, okay, I can, Ican let go, I can let go, you
know.
But there's still times whenI'm like, uh, I feel that I'm
(07:14):
not feeling, I'm feeling nervous, I'm feeling scared, I'm
feeling like some something'sgoing to happen, where then I
start up and then Iover-communicate everything.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I can I then?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I over communicate everything.
I can't I over communicateeverything.
Is there such thing as overcommunicating?
Is there?
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I mean, yeah, really.
I mean, it depends on, I mean,if you're texting someone every
five minutes to be like, are yousure you're going to be there?
Are you sure you're going to bethere?
Did you do it?
Did you do it right?
Yeah, so I think that there's awhole control issue that we're
like not talking about, but itreally is the foundation Any
kind of codependency is built on.
It's an overt or covert desireto control other people's
(07:55):
outcomes, or other people'sfeeling states, other people's
situations and especially withchildren, it can be so or with
people who work for us.
It can be really tempting tojust want to do everything for
everyone because A we're worriedthey're not going to do it
right.
Let's be honest.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
But they don't.
That's the truth.
That is number one.
I think that's number one onthe list is.
I feel like that I mean and noteverybody, there's a couple,
you know.
There's people in our livesthat we do trust in that sense.
But there are a lot of timeswhere you feel like and I know
this, I do this as a helicoptermom, and I know I'm a helicopter
mom and I'll say it, I'm goingthrough college applications
(08:32):
right now and I'm like okay,we've got to make sure you sit
down.
Are you going to sit down?
Okay, at 3 o'clock.
I mean, it's like and I know Ido that I'm guilty because I
want them to succeed and I wantthem to do it right.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I would be the same way, terry.
Like, what advice would yougive if you don't like we're
going to sit down at this timeand do the and sit with them and
do like the form with them.
How can we tackle somethinglike what Kat's going through in
a more healthy way, instead ofmicromanaging and making Like,
where do we start?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, we have to know how we feel right.
So part of it is before.
Whether you're talking aboutmicromanaging kids or something
else, the way that you can finda GPS to get you there is doing
a resentment inventory, becausewhere you're feeling resentment
is probably where you'reovergiving or overfunctioning,
or maybe a boundary needs to beput in place.
(09:23):
So this is something easy thatpeople can do literally right
now.
You can bring to mind where areyou feeling resentful in your
life.
So let's say it's with a sister.
I feel resentful because shecomes to my apartment and she
uses her keys to borrow myclothes and not tell me that was
a real live example from mylife.
Uses her keys to borrow myclothes and not tell me.
That was a real live examplefrom my life.
I'm like asking for a friendand so now I'd have to look and
(09:48):
go.
Okay, I'd write that down asthe example.
But I'd have to look and sayall right, what is my 50% of
this situation?
Well, my 50% was not sayinganything about it, just being
pissed off or just not gettingback to her, like being passive,
aggressive rather than direct.
So now you go.
Okay, what is the fix?
I need to have a conversation Ineed to tell my sister if she
wants to continue to have thekey to my apartment, she will
(10:08):
need to ask me to borrow mystuff.
And that is how you go frombeing resentful and doing
nothing about it and beingresentful and actually problem
solving.
Because this is with boundariesthey will not set themselves.
No one else knows yourpreference, your desire, your
limit or your deal breaker.
That's on you, that's on you,that's on me, and if we don't
(10:30):
express those things to thepeople in our lives, they don't
know us.
We're resentful because, as yousaid before when we were
talking like we write a wholestory about why, oh, my sister's
not even asking me, because shedoesn't give a crap, because
she's entitled, because shethinks she owns my clothes or
whatever it is.
And the reality is people arebusy, people get lost in their
(10:51):
own lives.
There's a million reasons, butit is our responsibility to
assert our boundaries and ourboundary preferences with the
people in our lives, and ourrelationships are so much better
for it.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
I know you say a lot that we basically train people
to like how to treat us.
But taking that one stepfurther, after you set the
boundaries what I deal with?
Because I read your book, thenI feel like, yeah, I got this.
Then I set a boundary and thenI feel guilty, then I send it
back.
So how do you deal with theguilt after you set the boundary
?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
First of all, that's a great question.
You have to expect that you'regoing to feel something.
You might get pushback from thepeople in your life, just as
you were saying.
I like it when my sister has noboundaries with me, but not
with other people.
So relationships are like adance and when you change your
steps, the other person is goingto notice.
Yeah, so when you feel guilty,first of all, I'm going to ask
(11:44):
you to not turn away from thatfeeling.
I'm going to ask you tochallenge that feeling.
So much of the time, guilt is ahabituated experience where we
don't even have a good reason tofeel guilty and we just feel
guilty.
Yes, we don't even have a goodreason to feel guilty and we
just feel guilty.
Yes, so we're going to lovinglyand with compassion, question
do I actually have a reason tofeel guilty or am I just so used
(12:06):
to feeling guilty that it is ahabituated behavior, not a real
behavior that is warranted forthis situation?
Because I think that most womenwe are raised and praised to be
self-abandoning, codependents.
Yes, and it is not what we wantto teach our daughters or our
sons.
What does that mean?
Being abandoning codependent?
(12:27):
Meaning that we will abandonwhat we need, what is in our
highest and best for everyoneelse.
We are endlessly taking one forthe team, right?
If somebody is going to,someone always needs something
more than we do, because whenyou're a high-functioning
codependent, you're all like.
Our mantra is I got it, I gotit, I got it.
It's not a big deal, and it hasto be me, because we don't
(12:48):
think that other people will doit the way that we want it done.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
A lot of times, Are you in my head?
Yes, but this is why you'rehere.
That's good, that's really good.
You're here because this iswhat happens every day.
I love to cook so much.
It is my way to end the day, togive back to myself, but I give
myself away all day long.
By the time it's dinner time,I'm so exhausted.
I really don't have the time.
Olivia and I do take out a lot,and I want you to teach me how
(13:13):
to do a table of one, but I wantto tell you, in the heels of
what you just said, of somethingthat happened two days ago.
I created a boundary.
I felt such guilt and I did thewrong thing.
I called my mother for adviceand I realized that she's the
one who taught me codependency.
And she told me oh, youshouldn't do that.
You're going to feel guilty.
And you know what I did Iabandoned myself.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
So can you talk about who to go for when you do feel
guilt.
Well, part of it is do not goto the person who taught you all
the dysfunction so we're justgoing to get away from the
family of origin, even though welove them.
But that's like the scene ofthe crime.
So how about we don't go backthere?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Sorry, mom.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
How about we just go to healthy friends who are
therapists or who have goodboundaries?
And part of it is before weeven do that.
You have to acknowledge toyourself that how you feel, what
you think and what you wantmatters.
And, sabrina, it's got tomatter to you more than what
anyone else wants, thinks orfeels.
(14:11):
Cooking makes me feel good.
If it's the way that I unwindat night, if it's important to
me, if it nourishes me, then I'mgoing to set up my schedule so
that I'm not going to give itaway.
And when someone asks me to doa last minute dinner, I'm going
(14:32):
to say no because I want to behome.
And I think we have to beproactive with our boundaries.
You know that you have atendency to give yourself away,
so be proactive with yourschedule.
Write it in at 4.30.
I'm starting dinner, or 5 orwhenever.
You know what I mean Like.
Actually put it in yourcalendar, because that's
something that you're going tobe so much better for everyone
in your life.
Because what happens when wegive ourselves away?
(14:54):
Eventually we get bitter.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Yeah, who me what.
What I do like about this yournew book too much is that you do
have little tips for people inthose little boxes of just or
even some of them areaffirmations.
So if I did everything in yourbook and I created a lot of
boundaries, tell me how a lifecan transform.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Okay.
So first of all, let's make adistinction, not a lot of
boundaries.
If I set healthy boundariesregularly, early and often, what
would my life look like or howwould I feel?
Well, part of it is, you wouldbe less exhausted.
So there's a real practicalityto healthy boundaries, where we
just have more expansion in life.
(15:39):
We have more inner peacebecause we're not saying yes
when we want to say no under theguise of being nice, because
first of all, obviously, when wereally look at it, it isn't
being nice, it's misleadingpeople, it's giving corrupted
data to the people in our life.
So people don't really know usbecause they think we're doing
it because we want to, becausewe said yes, because we didn't
know how to say no.
(16:00):
So on the other side of thosedisordered boundaries is much
better relationships, much morebandwidth.
You gain so much bandwidth backof your own energy when you are
not doing things you don't wantto do all the time, when you're
being more honest, when yourfeelings are hurt or when you
want something, you're assertingyourself.
(16:21):
So I feel like the life thatyou're meant to live is on the
other side of healthy boundariesand that when we don't have
them and I've seen this in mypractice.
You can live your whole lifeand people don't really know you
because you're just checkingboxes.
And I've had women come into mytherapy practice in their sixth
or seventh decade of life beinglike okay, I've done it all,
(16:43):
kids are on track, everyone'sgoing to Ivy League schools, we
got some money.
Why do I feel so empty?
And I'm like because you builtyour whole life on checking
boxes, saying yes when youwanted to say no, not asserting
who you really were, and peopledon't know you.
It can be an existential crisis.
So we don't want that.
Yes, we do want to stand up andhave our own backs, and that's
(17:06):
what it means to be healthy withboundaries is that you can
count on you to actually haveyour own back, and you're not.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So vulnerable to other people and don't you think
that's really healthy for yourfamily and your friends and
people you associate with?
Because you're actually beinghonest yeah right, You're not
being dishonest about what youreally feel, which builds
resentment, we know, and I meanI think that one area that I
(17:37):
think that where my boundarieshave been healthy is that I know
my kids come to me because theyknow I will be honest with them
.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yes, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I'll be honest, I'm not going to be and not like I'm
in a loving way and a nurturingway and in a healthy way, but
I'm not going to say, oh yeah,you should go do that because I
know that's what you really wantto do.
It's like they come to mebecause they really they respect
my, my honesty, right.
And the boundaries of like youknow what I love that you want
(18:01):
to do that, but right now that'snot really.
You know that's not doableright now.
That's not.
Maybe later, that's fine, it'sfine.
No, I just I feel like that Iknow what you're talking about
feeling guilty Because you'relike God, I'm like I gotta be
the bad guy here.
And set the boundaries.
You know all the time and youdo, you feel so guilty and you
(18:23):
feel so like you're.
You're the bad guy always.
You know, because you're theones that you're the one that is
setting some boundaries or atleast communicating whether
you're always right or not Justcommunicating how I feel.
I feel like, just from myperspective, that this doesn't
feel good to me.
You know, this I need, we needto talk about it or communicate
(18:44):
about it.
And I think that that's where Ithink I struggle too is that I
do set boundaries but I do feelguilty, and that was a great
point.
But I mean, that was a greatpoint because I think,
especially women, I think wealways feel guilty because we
communicate and sometimes weover-communicate, but I don't
ever feel like that's been a badthing.
I think when I don'tcommunicate something and I hold
(19:06):
it in is when I start theresentment and it just kind of
boils.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah, we have to look at, though, why we're feeling
guilty.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
And I think that that is a really important part of
this process is should youactually or exactly like did you
do something wrong?
So much of the time it's justlearned behavior.
It's not even about somethingwe've done.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Is it safe to say that the fertilizer or soil that
grows high functioningcodependence is always childhood
trauma, I mean listen, Iwouldn't say it would have to be
even trauma, like the realityis raising daughters in a
patriarchal system.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
We were taught to turn that frown around.
If you don't have anything niceto say, don't say anything at
all, like nobody cared about howyou really thought they were.
Like be compliant, please Benice.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, I was raised because my mom was a really
strong woman.
She was raised in a militaryfamily.
She got her doctorate innursing in Mississippi when that
wasn't even accepted, so sheand she was a feminist.
But there were certain thingswhere my mom would be like, okay
, and I could see that she wascomplying and it was just how
she was raised, and then thatwas.
(20:12):
You know, sometimes she wouldsay to me Kat, you know, don't
embellish so much, cause I've,you know, like I love an
exaggeration, I do.
I mean, you know I'd be ontelevision and be like, well, I
did this.
You know, I'm embellished alittle bit.
You know, she's like you'reembellishing everything.
I said, mom, that's just,that's just, that's just
(20:34):
television, that's okay, youknow so.
And she was an amazing nursepractitioner and had a doctorate
and everything.
But she was just demure andlike don't be too, don't, don't,
don't beat your drum so loud,just be, you know.
And so there was this wholejuxtaposition that I grew up
with.
It was so confusing.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, but it's funny because what you say about your
mom, I think about you.
When you and I spoke and yousaid that you have a problem
setting boundaries, I'm like youKat Cora has problems Like
you're such a badass.
I don't think I said I did.
Oh, I said you did, god sorry.
Oh right, okay, that's where Iwas wrong.
I mean safe to say, though, foranyone listening, it's about
(21:08):
taking baby steps, right, terry?
Yes, so if you can give anyonelistening or watching this some
tips, takeaway tips of how toreally set boundaries, create a
different scenario in their life, what would it be?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Well, the first thing is what we already said, which
is to do the resentmentinventory, because you need to
know where you need a boundary.
That's the beginning.
Another thing is I think wereally have to stop the auto yes
.
So if you're someone who's justa people-pleasing yes person,
even if you're veryhigh-functioning, we have to
stop that auto yes.
So how you can do it is you canactually buy time.
(21:41):
So, instead of someone asks youto do something, so I say
everybody watching, take thenext seven days, no immediate
yeses to anything and we learnto buy time, which can just
sound like oh hey, I need tocheck with my partner or I need
to see if I have time on mycalendar.
I need to look at my work to seeif I can help you with that
project depending on my workload, to see if I can help you with
(22:02):
that project depending on myworkload, because what happens
is, and then you can say I'llgive you an answer by the end of
the week.
I'll let you know by tomorrow,when we buy time, instead of
giving an automatic yes, thatwe're going to regret a lot of
times.
Now we have all of thisexpansion to come back and give
an honest no and we can startwith something positive, right?
If you're saying no to someonethat you actually care about or
(22:22):
you like, you can say I lovethat you think of me.
That is so great, and I'm notavailable on Wednesday, but I
hope you guys have a great time.
So I feel like there's so muchfear around saying no.
But we can always setboundaries with compassion and
care, a little bit of heat if weneed to, but generally speaking
(22:44):
, you don't have to be bitchy toset boundaries, right?
You know something?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
you did yesterday.
Yesterday you sent me a bunchof questions and I was working
and I had that knee jerkreaction of having to get back
to you.
But I really couldn't because Iwas working.
And you said at the end, youdon't have to get back to me
right now.
And I felt this like reliefcome over me when you said that
and I realized that it's thatknee-jerk reaction of having to
(23:06):
get back.
But I feel like it's the dayand age of this digital age that
we're always on our phones andconstantly having communication
with everyone and that's whatprogrammed us to feel that way.
But buying time, I think, forme, is going to be a huge game
changer.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yes, Because not everybody feels compelled to get
right back.
That's just a lot of times,when you're a high functioning
codependent, you feel you don'twant people waiting.
We're so dialed into how otherpeople feel and we're worried.
I don't want them to think, Idon't want them to feel.
So if you ever have thosethoughts, I don't want them to
think, I don't want them to feel.
You know, know, you need toback up and get to your own side
(23:42):
of the street, because you areonly responsible for what you
think and how you feel.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
One of the things that I've been doing and I know
that that is the best advice isto take a pause, because I don't
think we do that at all, and Ithink that that is such great
advice for people, especiallypeople that are yes, yes, yes,
yes, yes is one thing that I'vestarted doing in text, because
we do that a lot with text,where that's how we communicate,
(24:07):
a lot is, I'll say at the endof it, like no pressure, like no
pressure, like you know if.
But again you're managingsomeone else.
That's not a good thing.
I thought that was a good thing.
I thought I was like that was.
I was about to be like okay,look what I do, look what I do.
Yeah, I do this.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
I say no pressure, you're still managing someone
else's feelings.
What I want to know is what dowe, how do we protect ourselves?
Yes, so you can then say I'mgoing to dinner now, so I'm
jumping off Meaning, so yourelieve yourself from feeling
obligated to get back to someone.
So those are the things that wehave to worry about, not
necessarily making someone elsefeel OK, that's good, ok, see,
(24:48):
that's what we still have to do.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
It's you know, we're learning.
That's right.
We're a work in progress.
We're a work in progress,correct?
So, with that said, what Ilearned today is that we can buy
time.
No auto.
Yeses that there's going to beguilt, but it's baby steps.
Correct anything I'm missing?
Okay, good cat, you are makinga sweet potato zoodle stir fry
(25:11):
terry.
Do you want to stay?
I do, let's go.
I'm hungry.
Yeah, I'm star.
All right, conversation got me,got my appetite going.
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