Episode 167: Controlling Pests using Boron Instead of Insecticide with Jay Watts

Jay Watte is a fourth-generation farmer from the Imperial Valley in Southern California, where he manages a family operation focused on seed production. Thanks to his pioneering practices, Jay hasn’t sprayed insecticides on his farm for nearly two years. Instead of pesticides, Jay uses nutrient management, particularly boron applications, to boost plant resilience and reduce pest pressure. His experiments with soil inoculations and cover crops, are yielding promising results, including healthier plants and higher seed quality. Jay’s approach emphasizes sustainable practices that prioritize long-term soil vitality and community well-being over short-term gains.

Jay supplies major retailers and local farmers with his seed, especially Bermuda grass and alfalfa. Beyond seed production, he has ventured into growing agave and is launching a market garden to provide diverse, healthy produce to his community through a local CSA program.

In this episode, John and Jay discuss:

• The challenges of producing seed compared to forage crops

• Improving alfalfa seed quality 

• Changing regional crop patterns, including the decline of cotton and sugar beets

• Water management and irrigation challenges in a desert environment

• Evolving management strategies to combat the rise in pest and disease pressures

• Jay’s success in reducing insecticide use through boron and nutrient management

• The benefits of soil inoculations and cover crops in regenerative farming

• Jay’s vision for a sustainable legacy for his children and community

Additional Resources
To learn more about AEA’s Rebound Boron, please visit: https://advancingecoag.com/product/rebound-boron-gal-p6850075/

About John Kempf
John Kempf is the founder of Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA). A top expert in biological and regenerative farming, John founded AEA in 2006 to help fellow farmers by providing the education, tools, and strategies that will have a global effect on the food supply and those who grow it.

Through intense study and the knowledge gleaned from many industry leaders, John is building a comprehensive systems-based approach to plant nutrition – a system solidly based on the sciences of plant physiology, mineral nutrition, and soil microbiology.

Support For This Show & Helping You Grow
Since 2006, AEA has been on a mission to help growers become more resilient, efficient, and profitable with regenerative agriculture. 

AEA works directly with growers to apply its unique line of liquid mineral crop nutrition products and biological inoculants. Informed by cutting-edge plant and soil data-gathering techniques, AEA’s science-based programs empower farm operations to meet the crop quality markers that matter the most.

AEA has created real and lasting change on millions of acres with its products and data-driven services by working hand-in-hand with growers to produce healthier soil, stronger crops, and higher profits.

Beyond working on the ground with growers, AEA leads in regenerative agriculture media and education, producing and distributing the popular and highly-regarded Regenerative Agriculture Podcast, inspiring webinars, and other educational content that serve as go-to resources for growers worldwide.

Learn more about AEA’s regenerative programs and products: https://www.advancingecoag.com

 

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hi friends, this is John.
Welcome to the Region of
Agriculture podcast where we
have all kinds of fun
conversations. Today, I'm joined
by Jay Watt, who is a friend of
mine.
I had the privilege of hosting
him here at my home some time
ago on
a day where we also had lots of
interesting conversations.
Jay, thank you for being here.
I've really been looking forward
to this discussion.

(00:25):
And, you know,
we all have different
perspectives,
different experiences.
And one of the things that I've
always been intrigued by is the
experiences and the perspectives
of people who are actually
producing and growing seed or
producing and growing a
diversity of different crops
because there is something about
growing a diversity of different

(00:45):
crops or taking things to the
kind of the ultimate level of
quality that really sharpens
your perspective and hones your
senses.
So thank you for being here.
Tell us a bit about your context
and your operation and the scope
of the things that you're
working with.
Thank you.
I'm actually a fourth generation
farmer in the Imperial Valley,
which is the southernmost point

(01:06):
in California. We're a seed
production
family operation.
I make
two different kinds.
My main thing is Bermuda seed
that is sold. You see it in
Lowe's, Home Depot.
It's your
filler grass for a lot of the
lawn and garden companies.
And then I also grow alfalfa
seed

(01:27):
that we use locally.
I sell it to
back to local farmers,
and I also have a couple
brokerages that I work with that
sell it wholesale,
but our seed's a little bit
different because we have zero
dormancy rating on our alfalfa
seeds, so it only can go to

(01:49):
more
southern areas, more warm
climates,
and some of the other,
they'll use them sometimes if
you use it like a clover as just
an annual in quarantine.
but it won't survive the
winters.
Is there anything else going on
besides the seed production?
Yes.

(02:09):
I do about seven acres of
agave that I have been doing for
three years.
where that's gonna go, we'll see
what the market does.
As of right now, it's probably
gonna be into a spirit,
hopefully,
but it's wide open for what it
could be.

(02:30):
There's inulin production, which
is a prebiotic for a
fiber,
like fiber, your fiber pills and
things like that.
There's also a feed,
like animal feed possibility in
that.
And then there's,
Biofuel is one of the things
that there's a big study out

(02:51):
right now, whether it's going to
be a viable crop for
biodiesel or biofuel.
And then my pet project right
now is my wife and I are
starting a small market garden
to have a
CSA that we can
have locally shipped,

(03:12):
or not shipped out locally, but
that we can have delivered
locally to all of our friends
and neighbors to give them
a healthier source of produce
that is a little bit more
diverse than just the lettuce,
squash, things like that on the
shelf at the grocery store.

(03:32):
In the context of your seed
production operation,
what are some of the historical
challenges that you've had to
deal with in your growing
environment, in your growing
context?
How is producing seed for those
crops different than from
producing a forage crop?
Well, the water scheduling is a

(03:53):
little bit more difficult.
And when you're producing a
forage crop, you're watering it
every two weeks, and you want it
to grow as much leaf matter and
forage as possible.
With seed production,
we kind of want to, for lack of
a better term, mistreat it so
that it thinks it's going to

(04:14):
die, and it wants to put off
seed to help itself reproduce.
So we will stress it a little
bit.
From past experience, I have
learned that you can overstress
a lot of the Bermuda and things
like that to where it'll just,
it makes blank seeds that are
just,
they're a husk with no

(04:35):
seed inside.
They
will
go through the
cycle of producing seed three or
four times throughout the
growing season.
So you'll have different flushes
come through and you kind of
have to time it because you're
trying to maintain the
the plant and keep it growing

(04:56):
and you're also trying to
help it
be stressed out and
want to produce seed.
So we
usually will
change our water schedule as we
go through the
season. In the beginning when
it's cooler we'll probably water
every
30 to 40 days.

(05:19):
And then once it starts to warm
up, we start to taper that back
until we get to about 20 to 14
days. There at the last one, our
last two waters are probably 14
days apart.
When you, if you have multiple
seed flushes or head flushes
coming through in a year, are
you on the, in the case of the
Bermuda grass, are you
harvesting seed multiple times

(05:39):
per year or just one harvest per
year?
Just one harvest.
Bermuda doesn't shatter like
other seeds.
It, uh,
we do also do a winter harvest.
seed that we've
started doing rather than
cutting for hay, because it's
just more economically viable.
The hay,
you have to put a lot of inputs

(05:59):
into it, and then you also have
to cut it, and you
don't have the capability to
make as much.
So
it can sit there in the field,
either windrowed or just upright
before you cut it, and it will
hold for,
I mean, we've held it for two
months.

(06:20):
just sitting in the field before
we could get a combine to it and
the yield didn't change.
So you have the benefit of being
a fourth generation farmer and
having
observed lots of changes
in the way farming is done and
ecosystem management and so
forth. What have been some of

(06:41):
the
challenges that you've observed
over the last couple of decades
and how is your farming
operation evolving?
Changing crops is one of the
main ones.
My dad was
pretty large cotton grower in
the area when we would grow
cotton here.
And up until probably two years

(07:01):
ago, we had no acres of cotton.
And this year we have a couple
hundred acres when we used to
have 85 ,000 acres of cotton in
the area.
And as the crops change,
the methods of farming have to
change. Our
bed sizes will change.
Our methods of cultivation will

(07:23):
change.
The fertilizer companies will
have to adapt and move their
products into a
more like
Bermuda or alfalfa or produce
centric model and they'll
have to focus their attention
other
areas rather than what we have

(07:45):
here. just lost the sugar beet
plant that we had here for,
I think it was,
I'm probably getting this number
wrong, but upwards of 75 years.
It's been here since the
forties, I think.
And
they,
the company, it just wasn't
economically viable for them.
And they are from Minnesota.
They

(08:06):
decided to shut this plant,
take their sugar allotment and
move it to Minnesota.
and,
or no, yeah, Minnesota.
And now we've got 25 acres of,
or 25 ,000 acres of
sugar beet production that isn't
going to happen this year,
that's going to have to move
into a new crop.
And that's going to affect

(08:26):
everybody from the beet
harvesters all the way up to the
like city managers and things
that are having to figure out,
they actually declared a state
of emergency for it.
I'm not sure what it's going to
do, but
besides maybe help with tax
revenue and things like that.
But that's been one of the main

(08:48):
things that we have experienced
that has
forced us to adapt.
My dad started farming Bermuda
seed when I was probably 11
years old.
And before that, nobody farmed
it.
And it was a pretty unknown crop
at the time. And now it's one of

(09:09):
the main crops in the Imperial
Valley besides alfalfa.
When I think about crop
production in the Imperial
Valley, from the perspective of,
there are many of our listeners
who don't
particularly have
perspective on the Imperial
Valley. Tell us a little bit
about the
growing climate, the growing

(09:31):
conditions, and what irrigation
water
management looks like and
availability and future supply
and how you are thinking about
that.
In the Imperial Valley, we are a
400 ,000 acre
valley in the southernmost
portion of California.
We get our water from the
Colorado River and it's all

(09:52):
gravity fed.
Oh, dear.
Yeah, we'll get to that.
That's a whole nother hot button
issue.
It's
all gravity fed for us.
There's no pumping stations.
There's just there's dams that
have that produce hydroelectric
power.
And
then
we have canals that

(10:13):
get smaller and smaller and feed
into our fields.
We have laterals that take a
large portion of the water down
and then move it into our actual
field
irrigation.
And
I
don't know the actual
percentage, but I would say we
are probably upwards of 80 %
flood irrigation.
And my sister, who's on the

(10:33):
IVH2O,
board, or well, she's the
executive director of it, is
probably going to kick me for
saying wrong numbers.
So I'll just say we have a lot
of flood irrigation.
There is some sprinkler and some
drip,
but
we
have a bit of a different
situation than most areas
because
we have a lot, have a high salt

(10:55):
content in our impurova, or in
our ground. We have a high pH.
We're upwards of 8 .1
to 8 .4 in most areas.
Our water
coming in is 8 .4 pH also.
So even if you were to bring the
pH down on your soil,

(11:15):
your water,
the next irrigation is going to
bring it right back up and it
just, it won't hold down.
So we have to adapt.
And most of our crops are geared
for the more alkaline salty
areas.
And we are
a desert area. We get upwards of
120 degrees in the summertime.

(11:36):
And
we have a great winter growing
season.
Starting right now, we're
planting lettuce
for the winter and fall.
We grow a lot of cauliflower and
broccoli,
corn, carrots.
Between

(11:57):
us and Yuma, I think we supply
most of the
United States with winter
produce.
So it's a very
interesting growing region.
I
have to pay attention when I'm
looking at
growing new crops and things
like that to check

(12:18):
what their temperatures are that
they're growing in because
the
opposite season for us here.
We're just
very
kind
of niche.
Are you adding any irrigation
water to,
in the case of the vegetable
crops, are you adding irrigation

(12:38):
water at all to
compensate for temperature
stress and to help cool crops
down?
Is that something that happens
during the winter months at all
or not really?
During the winter months, I
doubt it because I'm not a
vegetable grower, so I
can't really speak for them.
But I don't think that they do.
I've never heard of that

(12:59):
management practice because
the varieties that we use are
geared for a winter crop,
not a summer crop.
Like our onions that we grow
here are short day onions.
instead of long day onions,
which means we need a shorter
day for them to
make bulbs and grow.

(13:21):
So we have different varieties
that are catered to our area.
Texas is very similar to us in
their growing season and some of
the southern tips of Texas.
Historically,
the perspective has been that
the Imperial Valley, Central
Valley, these desert areas of

(13:42):
the West have had a significant
competitive advantage from a
climate perspective and from a
disease
susceptibility perspective
because of an ideal growing
climate.
What is interesting is if you
look at the historical use
patterns of fungicides and
insecticides,
but in this case particularly

(14:02):
fungicides,
there is
increasing use of fungicides
in these production regions
quite rapidly if you're looking
at over a 20 to 30 year time
horizon and even longer.
So how,
in this environment, how are you
observing disease pressure and
insect pressure shifting and

(14:23):
changing? You've been,
your father was one of the
pioneering growers of
Bermudagrass, you've been
growing Bermudagrass seed in the
same location for quite a long
time.
How have you seen that shift
over time?
In the Bermudagrass seed, we're
just starting to see a shift.
It's a
little bit behind.
I don't think because
we rotate it a little bit more.

(14:45):
Also, it's a perennial, so it
stays in, but we're not just
Bermuda after Bermuda after
Bermuda. We'll rotate some
alfalfa and some wheat,
maybe some Sedan.
So ours hasn't
been that bad, but for the
fungus problem,
we have a rust issue here,

(15:06):
and we can solve it with
a little bit of...
Most guys use like Tebistar or
something like that.
Other guys will use sulfur.
Sulfur doesn't exactly work on
rust.
It's long been a
prescribed treatment
for rust, but it doesn't quite
manage it.

(15:27):
But the main problem for Bermuda
has been in the recent years, we
have started to get a lot more
pests.
Bermuda
historically didn't have any
pests that you had to worry
about besides maybe some flea
beetle coming in when it was
germinating,
and they would just clip off the
growing
small plants, but once it grew,

(15:49):
it grows so fast and so
vigorously that even if you had
worms come in, it wouldn't eat
it down. But we,
this year had an army worm
problem,
which was unheard of in growing
Bermuda, not in germinating
Bermuda.
We have a leaf stem maggot that
comes in and will

(16:09):
lay its egg.
The fly will come in and lay its
egg in the stem of the Bermuda
stalk and kill that entire stalk
up and it won't produce seed.
And
there's also a mite issue, but
that's always been there.
And that was very easy to solve.
If you just put on
one application of sulfur, it
basically broke the life cycle

(16:29):
of the mites and you didn't have
to worry about them anymore.
But we're definitely seeing
new and emerging pests coming
into the Bermuda.
And then I can't quite speak for
the produce guys because I'm not
a produce grower, but I am a
pest control advisor, which is
PCA, I prescribe the chemicals
for farmers and I go to a lot of

(16:51):
meetings.
And a couple of years back,
Sclerotinia was rampant in the
Yuma area and the Imperial
Valley. It's slowly becoming
more managed, I think through
more fungicide uses and
practices like that.

(17:11):
But there's also
new
bugs that are coming in from,
we had the brugada bug that was
a big problem in broccoli for a
while. It's
a true bug that comes in and
stings the growing point of the
broccoli and the broccoli makes
a triple head or a double head
that's non -marketable.
And then you have the newest one

(17:33):
that's coming in is a virus
carried by thrips and it
you can see it it's it's like a
almost a mosaic pattern going
through the field of where the
thrip lands and feeds it infests
the the lettuce plant
and it
just died i think it's called
insv is what i don't know what

(17:54):
it stands for but um it's uh
it's a big product problem in
salinas right now not so much
here but it'll get here most
things in salinas come
down to us because we're just we
don't have as much produce year
-round they're able to grow
pretty much year -round because
their climate and we were

(18:16):
only half the year.
So they have a little bit faster
development of these pests and
diseases.
I'm curious. I'd like to
understand your perspective and
your thought process.
As a PCA, you get to see what's
happening and what's going on.
You have the benefit of some of
a historical perspective.
What's your take on the

(18:36):
increasing pressure and what the
long -term solutions for some of
those challenges might be?
The increasing pressure, I
think, is just because we
do the same thing year after
year after year.
And it's almost a
foregone conclusion that you're
going to get something to come
in.

(18:57):
I mean, avocados are a good
example. When they first started
planting avocados in California,
there were no pests.
They planted them on this.
You can see them still if you
drive to San Diego.
They're planted on the side of
hills where you could harvest
them, but you can't drive a
tractor around there.
You can walk.
And they've just abandoned those
because now we have pests that
have come into the avocados and

(19:18):
they can't spray them.
They can't do anything to manage
it.
With ours, what I have seen is
just
a lack of
diversity in our management
practices.
We just,
if it's a bug, we spray it with
an insecticide.
If it's a weed, we spray it with
a herbicide. We don't look at

(19:38):
any other
processes, which is kind of what
I'm trying to do with my farm
right now.
The main thing that I'm doing is
a boron regiment.
I put
boron through...
Oh, this is going to be a fun
conversation.
You just hit one of my hot
buttons.
I'm using Solubor to put boron

(19:59):
through the, into the roots,
through the water.
And then I also come in with a
foliar application of
boron throughout the year.
I try and get twice a year and
I have actually seen
a decrease in ligase pressure
in my alfalfa seed compared to a
neighbor who sprayed.

(20:20):
I was getting upwards of,
I think it was at least half the
ligase pressure that he got.
I've got my notes here.
I'm trying to look at them and
see.
It was at least half, but
sometimes it was three or four
times more in the
conventionally managed field
compared to mine that had a
boron treatment and

(20:42):
inoculations just
in my opinion, a healthier,
happier plant that was able to,
if for nothing else,
not let the ligus get
established and reproduce like
the other fields were able to.
All right.
As I said, you hit on one of my
buttons, so we're going to dig

(21:02):
into this one because I
don't know that if I've made
this comment on the podcast, but
I certainly haven't in many
presentations, but I'm of the
persuasion that
if crops generally had adequate
levels of boron or even on the
generous side of adequate levels
of boron,
insecticide use would probably
drop by in the neighborhood of

(21:23):
plus 80%, upwards of 80 % across
the entire industry.
So
this is something that I'm
quite interested in digging
into.
In your your ligus bug
experience, just to understand
the context, when you talk about
conventional treatment versus
your boron treatment with
the fields that you applied the
boron on, did those also have an

(21:44):
insecticide treatment or was
that without any insecticide?
No, no insecticides.
I haven't sprayed an insecticide
on my ranch in,
that was probably three or four
months ago. I said I did
the math and it was about 18
months. So we're going up,
we're coming up on almost two
years with no insecticides
whatsoever on my ranch.

(22:06):
Most conventional practices for
alfalfa and alfalfa seed
treatment are usually about one
spray per cutting and probably
two to three sprays
on the conservative side for
seed production.
Some of the
farmers that are on the nicer
ground that are able to produce

(22:27):
large yields,
they will get probably five to
six sprays per
cutting. When you say five to
six sprays or two to three
sprays per cutting, are each of
those sprays an insecticide
spray?
Is that what you're describing?
An insecticide spray.
It's heavy, heavy insecticide.
I'm going to get crucified for
bringing this up on a on a

(22:47):
podcast, but I don't care.
It's the truth.
I just I found that I don't need
insecticides.
My goodness, going from that
type of regime,
spray regime, to to no
insecticides in 18 months or 20
months.
that's
quite a shift.

(23:09):
There was definitely some
growing pains. It was a
conscious decision I made.
I don't know why, but this agave
has been kind of a gateway for
me to get into the regenerative
movement,
I won't say organic, because I
look at organic as more of a
marketing scheme than anything
anymore. It used to be something

(23:30):
that actually meant something,
but anymore it just means that
you spray a lot more of a
lighter material, in my opinion.
And
that's not a popular opinion,
but it's in my
view.
Well, I think you have kind of a
front row seat as a PCA to know
what's actually happening and
what's going on in the fields of
California, that your opinion
has some merit.

(23:51):
It just seems like with the
organic,
They use, it's softer
chemistries,
things that are
derived from plants,
but they're sprayed,
you know, in an organic spinach,
you might spray every two or
three days, something like that.
Or, I mean, corn, it's just,
it's just a ton.
And again, they're lighter,

(24:13):
they're derived from plants most
of the time, but
there are,
you know, there's still plants
that are detrimental to humans
out there. So I don't.
I don't know about the whole
organic movement.
I know there are some very, very
good organic crops out there,
and there's some very good
organic growers.
And
I've tried to support those over

(24:34):
the years by purchasing their
products. But I just
see that it's a
little bit of a
marketing thing.
But back to the agave, it was
kind of a gateway to get into
this.
And I
first put in my agave on a
field,
and I sprayed everything over
the top of it, from Roundup to

(24:56):
Prowl to
I mean, just anything I could,
because I was trying to see.
if it would survive.
And it does because it's got a
waxy cuticle, it stomata are
open at night.
It's just, it's a pretty
resilient, awesome plant.
And then most of the chemistry
that I was using ties up in the
soil so that the roots don't
uptake it.
And then I moved to a different

(25:20):
plot of land that I started
planting the agave and
for whatever reason, started
looking into regenerative
practices on agave
and just in general.
And I stopped spraying my agave,
didn't spray it.
I put, the one thing I did do
was I put some diatomaceous
earth because we had a cricket

(25:40):
infestation that actually ate
them down to the ground.
Yeah, it was,
I've never seen crickets eat
something like that, but I mean,
they,
pretty much foot tall to foot
and a half tall agave down to
the ground. They've all come
back because they're just tough
plants. But
that
got me into not spraying on

(26:02):
my Bermuda and I stopped putting
TR10,
the pre -emergent herbicide,
the granular herbicide that we
would all put down.
I stopped. I didn't
do it. And then I would walk my
fields and I would walk the
other fields that I managed that
were conventional and
I didn't see a lot of difference
in the Bermuda.
Yeah, I had a few broadleaves

(26:24):
here and there,
but when
I started looking at them and
figuring out what they all were,
they're all forbs.
So I
don't mind having them out there
and they all die off before the
Bermuda gets harvested and I
don't have to worry about them
gumming up any of the combines.
That led into my alfalfa

(26:45):
production, which I just stopped
doing any
pesticides. I kept with the
herbicides for
a while because I wanted a
clean, pretty field.
but
the insecticides I stopped
because they didn't make any
sense to me
in the economics because I could
look and see it was, you know,

(27:05):
maybe it would eat,
the insects would eat
a quarter ton of hay.
I make another ton and a half of
hay, ton and a quarter,
but I have to spray a pretty
expensive spray.
Most of them, even the low end
generics are,
$20 or $30 to the acre.

(27:27):
And then I've got a tractor that
has to go through a field, a guy
that has to sit in the tractor
and the economics just didn't
work out for me.
So I stopped. And
for probably the last five
years, I haven't sprayed my
alfalfa seed with an insecticide
throughout the year.
I would spray what we call the
cleanup spray in the beginning,
which was a heavy dose of
herbicides, insecticides, pre

(27:48):
-emergent,
a
little bit of fungicide, a
little bit of miticide.
I mean, it was,
it was a huge cocktail and.
It was $100 an acre to put that
on, if not 120.
And I don't
produce enough seed.
I'm
on tougher ground.
I'm not a seed grower in the

(28:09):
alfalfa sense.
I grow it for hay.
I'm learning now how to grow it
better for seed, but that's only
been in the last five, six years
that we've grown alfalfa for
seed on a regular basis.
And I just, I couldn't make the
production that some of these
other guys could on their
ground. So I didn't see the
point in putting $120 worth of
expense

(28:30):
for something that even with
that, I would make
marginal yields.
And when on the fields that I
didn't spray,
I made the same yields.
So I haven't lost anything, in
my opinion. And people look at
my fields, and they'll tell me
if I had done it, I'd have made
200 extra pounds.
But
I
don't really agree.

(28:51):
I think that it would have been
the same
whether I sprayed or whether I
had left it alone.
When you consider that cocktail
that you're describing, you had
a pretty heavy dose of
herbicides there.
Has not putting on those
herbicides affected your seed
purity in the alfalfa in any
way?
My germination rate has gone
through the roof.
Okay, that's,

(29:12):
wow.
How
has your germination rate
changed from historically to
present?
It's relative.
Through the roof, to me, means I
have another half of a percent
germination rate.
In alfalfa,
99 % germination rate is the
bare minimum that you want.

(29:33):
And I would have stuff in the
98s, 97s.
Now my germination rate is
upwards of 99 .8, 99
.7.
One of the seed wholesalers that
I work through
their number one grade and
number two grade differs by one
-tenth of a percent.
If I'm 99 .5, I'm number one.

(29:55):
If I'm 99 .4, I'm number two.
And you lose about 10 cents,
if not a little bit more per
pound.
So it's gone from in the 97s and
98s, some of it was 96s,
all the way up to the last
germination test I got was 99
.7.

(30:16):
Actually, I think there was a 99
.8 in there also.
Okay, this is a slightly
different question or response
than the question I was asking.
I was actually asking about if
you have any contamination with
other weed seeds or anything
like that.
So you're ascribing the
improvement in germination rate
to a lack of herbicides

(30:36):
primarily?
Prescribing it to my entire
practice of no herbicides,
no sprays,
soil inoculations,
a different
minor nutrient regimen,
and a lot of just
management practices that have

(30:57):
changed. Maybe I'm a better seed
grower. Maybe it's been five
years. I'm learning the ropes.
I don't know. But I don't think
that's the case.
I think that maybe I am a better
seed grower, but I don't think
that that's increasing my
germination. But the purity,
that's never been a problem.
With most of the weed seeds that

(31:18):
we have here, they're
of a
very different size than our
alfalfa seeds, so they're easy
to mill out or to
get
out in the combine.
The combines are able to take
them out pretty easily.
The only ones we have a problem
with are Dotter and Curly Dock,
and Curly Dock's pretty easy to
spot. It's bright red out in the

(31:39):
middle of the field.
You can go pluck it out
if you have any.
And Dotter,
little harder to spot.
I did have a bit of
contamination with daughter this
year,
but between me and the seed
miller aren't sure whether it
came from
my field or whether it came from
either a contaminated combine.
And it was there was literally

(32:01):
one daughter in a pound of
alfalfa seed, which is enough to
to
bring down the purity to
critical levels.
They have to run it through
another machine to clean the
daughter out.
But daughter has a rough texture
on the outside and
alfalfa seeds are smooth so they
run it over
essentially velcro and the

(32:21):
daughter stick to the velcro and
the alfalfa seed keep sliding so
it'll be cleaned out no problem
and I'll be back into 99 %
purity.
Yeah
all right so
you mentioned you're
giving credit to that the
compost of all the various
things that you're doing.

(32:41):
And so far, we've talked
primarily about the
reductions in pesticide
applications. And I still have
this thing in the back of my
mind that I'm going to come back
and talk more about this boron
issue as well. But let's talk a
bit about what are some of the
other changes that you've been
making?
You mentioned the inoculation
and the trace mineral
applications and things that
you've been working on.
Yeah, I inoculated for the first
time last year.

(33:03):
My alfalfa seed
is also one of the changes that
I made. I only use my own seed
now, because I make enough that
I can sell it,
sell probably 90 % of it and use
10 % for myself, if not less
than 10%. You
don't,
for the seed that you plant, you

(33:24):
get a lot more than that off of
it.
So I haven't had to buy seed.
And so I know it's coming off of
my field,
my regiment,
my
soil microbiome, all the things
that are conducive to me having
a better
beginning and a better final

(33:44):
product.
The micronutrients here in the
Imperial Valley,
we would do some soil sampling.
My dad and I never
did any petiole samples or
anything of the sort, but I
started doing some sap samples
and working with you guys to get
a
better grasp on the

(34:06):
soil micronutrients
and the
mining of the soil nutrients
that are in there to help
get the plant onto a more
balanced footing and a better,
just a better base.
You have some interesting soil
challenges to deal with, with

(34:26):
the salinity and the alkalinity
and the challenges that you have
there.
So how have you been addressing
some of those trace mineral
imbalances that you've been
uncovering?
The main
one before,
what we would do is to
counteract the salts,
we would put
a, we have a liquid
calcium product that we would

(34:47):
put on and it would help leach
out the salts, bind the calcium
to the sodium, help leach it out
in the tile lines.
It also increased the, or helped
with the soil structure.
So we would do that.
And then the other thing that we
would do, because we're on a
clay soil,
we would put
a lot of nitrogen.

(35:08):
We upped
our nitrogen depending on what
we had by up to 20 % on some
fields, some crops to
help with. We also have high
calcium soils, which doesn't
make any sense that I would put
calcium on, but,
you know, the forms of calcium
are different than
in that it's a plant available
calcium.

(35:30):
So we would do that to manage
the
salt and the sodium, I mean, the
calcium tying everything up.
Now I'm working to
use sap samples, look at what's
going on in the plant, rather
than just kind of guessing.
Before we did NPK,
and we didn't really do a lot of

(35:50):
K.
It was mostly nitrogen
and potassium.
And then we would do nitrogen
and phosphorus.
Yeah, sorry.
And then we would do a little
bit of potassium for
root development here and there.
And most farmers around here
don't
even think about it.

(36:12):
The only other thing we would do
that was a little bit
outside of the norms, we would
put a
sulfur solution
on to help with the nitrogen
uptake.
But now I've started working
with a lot of different
chemicals that I never even, or
not chemicals, but
that I never even thought of,
like molybdenum and copper.

(36:36):
The
only time I ever thought about
copper before was for a
fungicide. Now I'm using it for
increased pollen vitality, for
just plant vigor.
And then the molybdenum, I have
really seen a difference in
using molybdenum and my
nitrogen.
I've cut my nitrogen back by

(36:57):
about 20 % hopefully gonna cut
it back a little bit more
I don't want to cut too much
back as I've
heard people say the grounds
kind of like a drug addict It's
hooked on all the conventional
products. You can't just pull it
off and not give it anything
It'll it'll kind of seize up and
well your plant won't be ready

(37:18):
for it.
So it'll go through withdrawal
symptoms So
that's that's been the main
changes that I've made has been
to balance the
miners so that the
macro nutrients are more
plant available and the ones

(37:38):
that are in the plant are used
to the highest benefit of the
plant.
In those alkaline soil
conditions, how are you
addressing those trace minerals?
Are you adding them in your
irrigation solution?
You're adding them to the soil.
How are you ensuring they get
into the plant?
The only trace mineral that I
apply to the soil is solubor or
boron through the irrigation

(38:01):
water.
And I also put a calcium
solution in with it when I do
that. But everything else, any
of the minors are foliar.
I
don't
think in our soil that with the
small amounts that we use,
it would even make it to the
plant. I think it would have
tied up before it even had a

(38:21):
chance to get into the plant.
So I've been doing everything
foliarly.
Yeah, I think in your soil
conditions, that's probably
true.
And molybdenum actually is quite
available in alkaline soil
conditions, but that's an
exception.
So you mentioned boron again.
Remind me, I think you said that

(38:42):
you applied a pound of boron in
the irrigation system, and then
you did some foliar as well in
your alfalfa seed production?
So,
almost everything I put boron
when I went through foliarly,
I would put boron.
And now, everything that I do
with an irrigation, I put at
least one boron application,

(39:03):
and it is
five pounds to the acre
of soluble borer.
One pound per acre of actual
boron.
Oh,
yes.
Yeah.
Sorry, because it's a 20 %
solution. Yes.
What does your total boron
application look like over the
course of an entire 12 -month
season?
It's probably about,

(39:27):
I would say, between 6 and 7
pounds of boron depending
on however many waters I get and
cuttings.
Because every cutting I try and
put
an application of boron since
I've taken, if I do cut for
hay, I will put another

(39:47):
application of boron because I
just, you know, you're bailing
it off.
You're taking all the nutrients
out of the field.
But if I sheep it off, I won't,
I will probably do, I'll
probably skip that one and put
it on the next one.
So again,
just for clarification, when you
say six or seven pounds over the
course of the season, you're
referring to pounds of actual
boron.
Yes.
So I do, I do five pounds per

(40:09):
cutting of
alfalfa. So it ends up being
between five and six.
Yeah.
Yeah, so.
have it sounds what you're
describing is all is this
magical combination.
I've observed it in a number of
areas around the country where

(40:29):
you have
high calcium soils,
you have a strong calcium
foundation to work from.
And then, of course, you're
adding further calcium that is
actually plant available.
And
against
that
foundation of calcium, you are
leveraging boron.
And it seems every time I see
that
that

(40:50):
that combination,
Not only are there very strong
quality responses,
but there are also consistently
just simply exceptional yield
responses where we get very
strong yields.
So since you've been, how long
have you been doing the boron
and what,
aside, we spoke about the ligus
beetle,
the change in ligus beetle
pressure and insect pressure,
but
what changes have you observed

(41:10):
in crop yield and performance
and quality since you started
doing that?
The crop yield hasn't changed
just yet.
Our soils are very,
where I am, are extremely high
clay.
So most
things change very slowly in
there.
When you start adding minor

(41:31):
nutrients, they get tied up
pretty fast. They don't
show up in the plant for at
least a couple of years if you
do a
long -term treatment.
But the quality of the plants
has changed drastically.
The
Bermuda we watered back after
our seed harvest,

(41:53):
Because it's so hot here, we
have to keep it alive.
If we don't water it,
it'll die. You'll lose half
the established crop.
So I watered it back,
and
no fertilizer whatsoever, just
put
irrigation water on it.
And I had people calling me
asking me how much fertilizer I

(42:13):
put, how many pounds of
nitrogen. did I have on because
it looked
better than
any other fields around the
area.
And I had not put,
granted, there's probably some
residual from the
Bermuda crop before,
but not that much to
where it would look this
vigorous and

(42:35):
healthy.
So that's one of the things that
I've noticed is the plant
bounces back.
a lot better.
I've got two alfalfa fields that
are side by side.
One was inoculated and treated
with the boron all year long.
One wasn't inoculated and got a
boron treatment during its seed

(42:55):
production,
and I'm going to have to replant
that entire field.
The one that was inoculated and
got the boron,
I don't know if I'm going to
have to replant it all.
It came back from the summer and
is looking
It's ragged right now.
It needs to be sheathed off and
cleaned up.
But
none of it died.

(43:17):
Usually here, we have such a hot
summer,
and our soils are so tight
that the water sits on it for
too long, and it will scald out
the alfalfa. In some
fields, you'll lose the entire
field.
Other fields, you'll lose
50%.
And then on the sandier soils,
you don't lose any, because it
doesn't sit. It's on and off so
fast.

(43:38):
But all the boron fields have
come back.
a lot faster and a lot healthier
than the fields that didn't have
it.
You mentioned the inoculation as
well.
Was it inoculated with
mycorrhizal fungi?
What was the inoculation?
With your product,
the PBS.
The BioCoat Gold?
No, well, BioCoat Gold was in

(43:59):
the seed, but I inoculated the
soil with...
I'm drawing a blank on the name,
but it's... Spectrum.
Yeah, Spectrum PBS, the...
Yep,
Phosphorus Soluble.
bacteria.
So that was because I had a lot
of
tied up phosphorus,
we decided that that would be
the way to go.
I think this year we're going to

(44:20):
switch to the DS because of all
the salinity and because it's a
lot of drought stress in the
summertime.
But the phosphorus solubilizing
bacteria,
I think it did a great job
because I never ran low on
phosphorus and I never applied
any.
So I have a follow -up question
on the boron with the boron soil

(44:41):
applications.
You mentioned your high clay
content soils and you sometimes
have difficulty getting applied
trace minerals and minor
elements into the plant.
How have you seen boron move
from that soil application in
the SAP analysis?
I've seen it
in the SAP analysis.

(45:02):
It showed up not nearly as
strong as for the application
because it's
It's just not getting in the
plant. Where it really showed up
and you could see it moving was
the foliar application of the
boron.
But it's just so easy to put the
soluble in the water.
And it's cheap.
Exactly.
That I do that.

(45:23):
But I'll
never depend on that anymore now
that I've seen an entire year of
foliar applications,
which was never a thing on our
ranch that we did.
We ran everything.
Either we dry spread urea and 11
-52.
or we water ran all of our
other fertilizer, our liquid
UN32s and AN20s and things like

(45:45):
that.
I will
never not do a foliar spray
going forward because I just
have seen
the
value of it in how fast it gets
into the plant and the
small amounts that I can get
a large boost
in the plant using,

(46:08):
I mean, if I were to run it in
the water, it would get so lost
in my water that it wouldn't.
Yeah, you don't even see
anything.
Yeah.
So but if you put it on, I put
it on foliarly,
I have a big spray boom, I go
through there, I can knock out a
field in a day,
and then we water right
afterwards. And it's, it's
great.

(46:29):
Out of curiosity, what form of
boron were you using in your
foliar?
Rebound.
Rebound boron.
It's an important point, and
I've posted a couple of clips on
this, but it's worth
reiterating, reminding people,
because we get these awesome
results from boron.
There's a handful of crops that
can thrive and can transport

(46:49):
solubor if it's applied as a
foliar, but for the most part,
you have to have the chelated
boron. Otherwise, it's phloem
immobile. You apply solubor, and
you don't
get the types of responses that
you're describing that you
experienced, and then people are
puzzled about why that is the
case.
That's what I found with almost
any of the fertilizers.
The company that I also work
for, we have a chelated sulfur,

(47:11):
potassium,
and phosphorus that
is 95 % available,
as opposed to the opposite in
1152, that's 95 % tied up.
And
it gets into the plant, it
moves,
it's,
you can, I mean, they've,
the
company that started it has a,

(47:35):
where they did the radioactive
dyeing, you can see it moving
through the plant.
You can see how fast it gets in
as compared to
standard
1034s, 1152s that just
get tied up in the soil and
don't make it into the plant.
But
the foliar with

(47:55):
any of the foliar applications,
I've just seen 10 times more
activity and availability, even
then the chelated stuff running
in the water at, you know, we'll
run 25 gallons of
phosphate in the water,
which is,
it sounds like a lot, but it's,
it's really not because it's,
it's like a 1 % solution

(48:17):
of,
or I guess it's
6 % solution, but it's,
it's all available to the plant,
but
doing a foliar application,
it's night and day, even to
water running,
high quality products like I
use.
The foliar just is, it outshines
it
10 times.

(48:38):
On a couple of occasions, you've
mentioned sheeping off the
alfalfa and perhaps the Bermudas
as well. And one of the things
that
I've observed is that anytime
you add,
when you have these generous
levels of boron, I think if
there is any one mineral
or any one nutrient that I would
associate with a high Brix

(49:00):
content, higher sugar content,
it's probably boron.
It has almost the most direct
analog, obviously,
elevated sugar production is
involved. There's a suite of
nutrients that are involved in
that process, not just one, but
boron has perhaps the most
direct analog effect.
And so,
quite commonly, I see
improved palatability and

(49:21):
desirability on forages from
higher boron applications.
Do you have any indicators from
the sheep or any livestock of
changes in perception and
quality?
Yeah.
So on the sheep production or on
the sheeping off the field,
two fields I was talking about
that had the late season born

(49:42):
application and then the born
application and inoculation all
year long,
the sheep fed for about seven
days per block on the
standard field.
And then on the inoculated field
treated with the boron, they got
at least one more day per block.
Some of them were two days per

(50:04):
block.
And the
fields, when we would bale them
off,
are almost identical in yield.
They're
very similar
size, very similar ground
type.
they would always, actually the

(50:25):
one that was untreated would
usually beat the other field by
a little bit,
maybe two
or three
hundred males, something like
that,
not a lot.
But
in this case, the sheep were in
there and they ate on it.
And I took seven acres of that
field out and put in agave.
So the field was even seven

(50:47):
acres smaller than the other
field.
They're 140 acre fields apiece.
So we were looking at 130
compared to 140.
And they fed for a total of
about five and a half days more
on
the treated field.
So if I'm following your train
of thought here, you're
describing that

(51:08):
there were
there were smaller yields in
terms of biomass per acre, but
larger yields in terms of animal
feed days per acre.
In other words, the animals were
getting more out of the forage.
They were more satiated with
what they were feeding.
Is that is that what you're
describing?
Yeah. Sorry, I kind of rambled
around a little bit right there.
I had a bunch of thoughts
bouncing around in my head.
But so, yes, the animals fed

(51:30):
longer
on the field that was treated
compared to the field that
wasn't.
But when we would cut them,
Historically,
those fields yielded almost
identical.
And then I also have taken
acreage out of the treated field
for agave.

(51:50):
So there's even less acreage on
that field and the sheep fed for
five to six days more
on the treated field.
Yeah, got it. So when we think
about observations around
quality, we spoke a little bit
about alfalfa seed.
We spoke about the livestock
indicators. We haven't really
talked about the Bermuda grass.
Have there been any observations

(52:11):
of improved quality with the
Bermuda grass seed production?
This
was a bad year to
try to evaluate that.
We've got a water program here
where we were
able to shut off our water,
able,
we were compensated for shutting
off our water for two months in
the summer, and I

(52:34):
didn't see the writing on the
wall. It was too late when they
had us do it. We did it August
and October,
which this was one of our
hottest October, last October,
was one of our hottest Octobers.
I think on record, we broke at
least two records during the
year for high temperatures.
I saw 118 in the middle of

(52:55):
October.
And it dried out the fields so
much that I think it killed at
least half
of the established Bermuda that
was out there.
So the seed yield this year was
terrible.
Luckily this year the the same

(53:15):
program is going on, but we were
able to choose a different date.
I did mine earlier I'm already
out of the program and watering
again in our hottest months So
it
hasn't seen nearly the effect
that it did last time so
hopefully next year.
I'll be able to see some
improvements,
but this this year the field

(53:37):
that
was completely treated with
inoculation boron all of it is
And I
didn't listen to my
AEA advisor.
And he told me to only take the
nitrogen down by 20%.
I have a bad habit of if 20 % is
good, then 50 % is better.

(53:59):
So I took my nitrogen down way,
way lower than you're supposed
to, which is why I know now that
plants go into withdrawals.
But
it produced the same as the
field next door that had the
full standard
regimen on it.
So I definitely think the minor
nutrients attributed to that,
and I would, I kind of regret,
not kind of, I 100 % regret not

(54:20):
putting the full
nitrogen package on there,
plus the minors to see what it
would have done.
But it was the same yield on the
two fields that
had the same treatment,
or had the different treatments.
And I had about 50 % less
nitrogen on the
treated field.

(54:41):
So Jay, I've got to ask the
question. You're a PCA, you make
lots of pesticide
recommendations.
How are these experiences that
you're having on your own farm
influencing the recommendations
you're making for other people?
I definitely try and I've
always been the guy that trained
me.

(55:01):
was very frugal with the way he
managed his fields for his farm.
It had nothing to do with plant
health. He just wanted to do the
best job monetarily that he
could for his growers.
And he passed that along to me
in the way that we manage
fields.
You have
to
tailor it to your grower.
Some growers want no bugs

(55:23):
whatsoever. If they see a gnat
flying around that doesn't even
have mouthparts, they want those
sprayed.
On other farmers that are
willing to take a little bit of
damage,
but not
have the cost of the spray.
Those are the ones you can
really dig in and start working
with.
And maybe you can skip a spray

(55:44):
on one of the
cuttings, but it's definitely,
that was already part of my DNA.
And now that I'm seeing this,
I can use my experiences on my
fields.
And I'm always the canary in the
coal mine that
does stuff first with any,

(56:04):
new treatments or new products
that we have because I farm and
I work for a fertilizer slash
chemical company.
How does how does this work that
you work for a fertilizer
company and you're using AEA
products?
And hopefully they don't hear
this.
He understands my I have a great
boss and he understands that I

(56:27):
am
able to I'm able to go out and
use other products.
They don't carry these products.
We have some, but they're
Most of our stuff is very
conventional.
To be clear, Jay, you are one of
many.
You're just the first one that's
in that particular spot that
I've happened to have on the
show and interview.
You know, my boss understands

(56:49):
that there's other products out
there. We're not the only game
in town.
I don't go recommending other
products.
I will tell people what I put on
mine.
It was on my Instagram and I had
a friend of mine
that kind of laughed, but he's
like, so are you just
kind of putting this out there
hoping that your boss doesn't

(57:10):
see it? I said, yeah, that's
exactly what I'm hoping.
But if they work, they work.
And that's just the nuts and
bolts of it. If a product works,
it works. And I'm not ever going
to
say one of our products is
better than another when it
isn't. If there's another
product that another company has
that is better,
I'll recommend that they go use

(57:31):
that product.
But if we have one that works,
I will always recommend mine or
my company's
before I recommend another, but
when they, the products work,
they work.
And so I
have definitely moved my
management practices more to
nutrients than to

(57:52):
chemistry, depending on,
um,
just coming in and doing a
rescue spray.
My wife laughs because my wife
is like maha movement to the
max. She loves all of the
natural foods. And I don't even
think we have Florida in our
toothpaste anymore.
So she

(58:12):
always asks me about things.
And my stance is that I
believe pesticides and
herbicides and fungicides
are a
necessary evil to for lack of a
better term, that they're a
they're a tool that
should be used
like you would any other tool.

(58:34):
They're not
everything that you should be
using. You should look at all
aspects of it. You can't use a
hammer to take out a screw.
You have to use a screwdriver.
So that's the way I look at
pesticides and herbicides is
if they work in this situation,
and
that's all that you can use, say

(58:54):
you're getting eaten up by worms
or weevil or something along
those lines,
and you don't have time to
manage the nutrients,
Yeah, absolutely.
Go in and spray because it's a
lot better getting a yield and
having to spray than getting
eaten up and not getting
anything.
But now next year, learn from
that
and
manage your nutrition like

(59:17):
you should and pay
attention to those things.
And eventually you can get to
the point where you're not using
them,
but for emergencies.
Where you just went with this
conversation, Jay, is so
important. And it was

(59:58):
I think it's this that
foundation of integrity that has
really
allowed us to have the impact
that we have as a company
because
we only we don't we don't have a
universal product lineup and we
recommend many products that are
not a part of our lineup.
And I think it's to
me, that's that's that is a mark

(01:00:18):
of integrity in agronomic
recommendations when you're
willing to take and to truly
advise and recommend what is
what is the best and produces
the best response.
And it
occurs to me that in what you
were just describing,
about pesticides, from a
pesticide use perspective, being
a necessary evil.

(01:00:38):
The
challenge or
the conundrum is that
the knowledge and the
information to,
as well as the incentives for
integrity of recommendations
related to pest management, the
conversation we were just having
around boron, for example,
and the responses that you saw

(01:00:59):
with
ligus bug pressure on alfalfa,
like there are...
That is... This knowledge of how
to use nutrition management for
disease control and insect
control is knowledge
that I would desire, and many
other people I'm sure would also
desire, to be much more widely
known and understood in
agronomy. And so there are

(01:01:20):
many people who have integrity,
but who perhaps lack that
integrity. knowledge to truly
make the best recommendations
from
this nutrition versus pesticide
dimension.
And that's an interesting place
to find ourselves in.
I completely agree with you.
It's one of the things that

(01:01:41):
has...
I like the products for one, but
I
just...
put him out there and let him
know how much I appreciate it.
Pedro has been fantastic.
There are very few times that
I've seen
someone that's selling something
look at a
soil sample or even just a field

(01:02:03):
and say,
yeah,
everything's good.
I think we're good.
I don't think we need to do
anything. And at
least a couple of times he don't
get him in trouble for this.
He has said,
no, you're good.
Everything looks fine.
I don't think we need to apply
anything. And
that
solidified my relationship with
him as a customer because I

(01:02:26):
knew he was taking the same
approach that I do.
That I have talked farmers out
of
chemicals
or putting extra nitrogen or
something like that on because I
didn't think they would need it
as opposed to just being a
salesman and pushing the sale
and making more recommendations.

(01:02:46):
I had a conversation with a co
-worker of mine
And he was asking me what
because I he has a very good
grasp of the basic
NPK and some of our calcium.
And we have another amino acid
product that we that our company
makes.
And
he is instrumental in a couple
of getting those off the ground

(01:03:07):
and getting them into farmers
hands and showing them how to
use them.
And I pick his brain constantly
because he's been in the in the
industry about 10 years longer
than I have.
And he
started asking me questions.
why are you asking me that?
What's going on with this
direction of questions?
Because he knows I'm a PCA.
And I told him, I said, I'm

(01:03:29):
trying to find the best way to
manage things
for the grower, for myself,
because in the long run,
I made a joke that if I do my
job or if I do everything right
that I'm trying to do, I'll be
out of a job in 10 years.
But that's not the case.
I don't want to be out of a job.
I want to make
my job.

(01:03:50):
Well, yes, essentially, I want
and I told him I want me to be
the most valuable aspect for a
grower, my knowledge base, my
experience, to be
what I know to be the value as
opposed to the fact that I can
sell you a $1 ,200 a gallon
fungicide

(01:04:10):
that
is a, you know, miracle cure.
And that's all, that's all I
have to know is, you know, in
March, I put this fungicide on
and everything's golden.
But I would rather it be,
if we need to, I know how to use
that. But if I don't
need to use it, I know other
aspects, other avenues that we

(01:04:31):
can take that maybe,
maybe my bonus isn't as big, but
my conscience is better.
And that's kind of where I've
gone with most of the things
that I've done in, in everything
is
I have to make a living,
uh, even in farming, like my,
uh, uh, my market garden that I
want to do, it has to make money
to be

(01:04:52):
reasonable. I'm not going to go
lose money on it,
but it was more of a calling
to do something good for the
community and people around me
to give them something healthy
and, um,
beneficial to them
than it was to find another
revenue stream.
Obviously I

(01:05:13):
would love for it to be.
off and have 140 acres of market
garden that I'm selling at
grocery store prices and retire
by 50, but
that's not the goal.
The goal is to do something that
makes
my conscience, my soul, my
whatever you want to call it,
content.
And that's the way I try to

(01:05:35):
approach all of my dealings with
the fertilizer industry.
If you need me to prescribe,
a pesticide or herbicide,
that's no problem.
I'm not one of those people that
gets the icks trying to
use a pesticide or even,
God forbid,
going in there and disking up a

(01:05:55):
field if you have to.
I've learned that there are uses
for everything.
There are also alternatives to
everything.
And I try and do the best thing
for my customers,
my field.
And one
of the main things that drove
this is I have three kids.
My oldest daughter is six years

(01:06:16):
old. She's decided she wants to
be a flower grower and seller.
So I'm learning how to grow
flowers.
My middle son is four
and loves everything about the
farm.
So I
want to give him something that
he can

(01:06:37):
look at and be proud of, not,
you know, say, oh, well, you
know, the farm costs me a
million and a half dollars a
year and I make,
you know,
million six profits.
I got $100 ,000 to live off of.
That's pretty nice.
I want him to know,
yeah,
dad worked on this.
He built up this soil.
There's a reason that

(01:06:58):
we don't have all the issues
that the people around us do
have some pride.
Maybe we lose some acres.
Maybe we cut back and we focus
more on smaller acreage.
But we can
we're there doing
what's best for the ground.
And I'm making sure that he has
something, if he,
maybe he doesn't want to be a
farmer, maybe he wants to, you

(01:07:19):
know,
use his head and be a doctor or
something like that.
But I, I want this to be
something that - For the record,
I don't think doctors use their
heads any more than farmers do.
I don't think they use Chad GPT
anymore.
Yeah.
Thank you for that monologue
there at the end, Jay.
The legacy of farming and I

(01:07:40):
think what
you described is
this fulfillment aspect that all
of us want to find our work
fulfilling. And fortunately,
most of us as farmers and
growers get the opportunity to
do that.
And particularly if we are able
to take this
approach and this mindfulness

(01:08:00):
perspective into our operations.
We've had a very wide -ranging
conversation, which I've greatly
enjoyed. What important topics
have we missed talking about?
The only one that is kind of
interesting, and it goes to
multi -species cover crops and
the plant interactions.

(01:08:23):
This is just my little pet
project that I keep noticing and
wanting to dig deeper into,
but the
Alfalfa that you know this the
stray seeds that made it into
the agave area and grew
have
Unfortunately, I can't harvest
them. They're right next to the
agave, but they're triple the

(01:08:45):
the seed production the
ones that are growing right next
to the agave are much healthier
and much happier
There's also I've had three
cover crops in there from a
brassica heavy cover crop to
some
pollinator mixes and a lot of
other things. that I've had

(01:09:07):
specially blended up for that
exact area.
And the
alfalfa keeps coming back in
there and it looks so much
better.
So I just, I think that there is
something plant
interaction that unfortunately
I can't do it in my broad acres,
but in the agave and

(01:09:30):
for trees and vineyards and
things like that, I definitely
think there's,
something to be explored with
putting other
crops around.
I think they just,
they're meant to grow together
instead of separately in a
big wide open field.
I wish I could figure out how to
do it in my broad acres,

(01:09:50):
but I just, especially for seed,
it doesn't work.
But that's one of the things,
the plant interaction has been
fantastic in the
agave because of all
the different crops.
It's quite an intriguing
observation and I'm wondering
is, okay, does the agave,

(01:10:11):
and obviously it's a desert
adapted plant with different
photosynthetic pathways and all
the various pieces that that
means and the implications from
a soil microbiome perspective.
So there's a few thoughts that
went through my mind and one of
those is, did the benefits from
whatever that microbiome
association or root association
is,

(01:10:31):
to what degree do those transfer
to the following generation, to
those seed? You might want to
start collecting seed there for
your next generation.
I need to get a little pouch and
go through there.
Yeah.
If they're producing triple the
yields, it'd be interesting to
see how that transfers.
It's just, it's one of the small
observations that I've made.
My wife laughs at me.

(01:10:52):
I spend probably 90 % of my time
walking up and down those agave
and 10 % of my time driving
around the other fields because
they're so broad and so big.
that,
but I can walk the entire agave
field in one, you know, one
hour.
I can walk up and back and look
at the whole thing and I'll
just,
you know, I name all my plants.
But it's interesting to see,

(01:11:13):
it's a
very nice little snapshot of
everything, what everything
could be if you were able to put
everything out there and just
not have to worry about
what it's going to produce
because it's just
almost a test plot.
And I'm

(01:11:33):
very interested to see what all
the interactions do.
There's so much left for us to
explore and so much to be
observed.
Well,
Jay, thank you.
Thank you for being here, for
the work that you're doing, for
sharing your experiences and
your observations.
And I look forward to coming to
visit at some point and having
more conversations like this
one.

(01:11:53):
Absolutely.
I look forward to it.
I think Pedro is coming out
sometime this year.
He was pretty curious as to how
everything works here because
it's a whole different world,
the way we irrigate, the way we
have to farm.
So I think he's coming out.
All right. Thank you, Jay.
Thank you very much.