October 29, 2024 • 48 mins
Dr. Jacqueline (Jackie) Persons is a distinguished clinician, researcher, and Clinical Professor at the University of California, Berkeley. She served as president of the Association of Cognitive and Behavioral Therapies (ABCT) in 1999 and currently works in private practice at the Oakland Cognitive Behavior Therapy Center. With over 35 years of experience, Dr. Persons is recognized globally for her pioneering work in integrating research into private practice, particularly in the areas of case formulation and measurement-based care.
In this insightful conversation, we dive into Dr. Persons' unique journey, exploring how she built a thriving private practice while contributing significantly to scientific research. She shares practical strategies for clinicians interested in research, the importance of data collection in therapy, and how she navigates collaboration with graduate students and academic institutions. Dr. Persons also talks about balancing her clinical and research roles and why she continues to find research personally rewarding.
In this episode, you’ll learn…
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How Dr. Persons integrates cutting-edge research into her private practice
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The benefits of measurement-based care and data-driven therapy in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jason Luoma (00:00):
Welcome to the Research Matters podcast, where I interview leading
researchers in psychology and othersocial sciences in order to understand
what makes them so good at what they do.
My goal is to draw out the tips, tricks,habits, and routines of extraordinarily
productive researchers in a waythat leads to actionable methods
(00:21):
that can improve your own research.
A warning for psychology studentsand early career researchers.
If you enjoy the tribulations ofwriter's block and a haphazard
workflow, this podcast is not for you.
(00:56):
Today we have a specialepisode featuring Dr.
Jackie Persons, a pioneer in thefield of cognitive behavioral therapy.
With over 35 years of experiencein private practice, Dr.
Persons is not only a highly regardedclinician, but also a researcher,
Consultant and clinical professor atthe University of California, Berkeley.
(01:17):
She's internationally recognized for hergroundbreaking work on case formulation
in CBT, and for being a remarkablyproductive researcher using data
directly from her clinical practice.
A very rare feat in those workingin practice based settings.
Today, she shares insights on howshe's managed to bridge the gap between
(01:37):
research and practice, Her passion forhypothesis driven care and much more.
We're thrilled to have her on the show.
So let's dive in to thisfascinating conversation with Dr.
Jackie Persons.
All right.
Hi, Jackie.
It's so great to have youon the interview today.
Jackie Persons (01:54):
Thank you, Jason.
Jason Luoma (01:56):
I just thought we'd start off if you could tell us a
little bit about your work context,how you managed to integrate research
into private practice, how just.
Really challenging.
That is, there are so few people who areable to do that, even though there are
a lot of people who want to, and so I'mreally excited to be able to talk to you
today about how you've managed to do it.
And you've been doingit for several decades.
(02:18):
I'm really looking forwardto learning from you.
So if you could just start off with alittle bit about how you do that, how
you've come to do that would be great.
Jackie Persons (02:26):
I'm happy to do that.
It's one of my excuse me, passions.
So if I say too much, please just stop me.
I work in private practice.
There's a small group of us here.
And so private practice and seeingpatients, adults who have mood and
anxiety, that's my main source of income.
And, My research is a, is veryimportant to me and something that
(02:53):
I've been doing for a very long time.
So the question you're asking meis, how do I get research done
in a clinical practice setting?
And I can say a few thingsabout it and then you'll tell
me what I should say more.
One.
way that I have been successfulin doing this is to integrate my
research very tightly into my clinicalwork in a couple of different ways.
(03:18):
One is I try to pay attention to during myclinical work, the questions I have that
come up in my clinical work and to thinkabout, can I collect some data to examine
those questions or test those hypotheses.
And can I test those hypotheses bothduring the clinical work and have the
(03:40):
potential to write up a research paper?
Because there's a lot of interestingquestions that we all confront
every day in our clinical work.
And we're doing hypothesis testing,ideally, in our clinical work.
And we're doing measurement based care.
I hope.
So what that means is collecting a lotof data to guide the clinical work.
(04:05):
So I try to integrate the researchand the clinical work in the data
collection and in the questions.
I try to make sure I'm usinga platform an online tool.
for collecting the datathat is research friendly.
So I personally can export the datato my database rather than having to
(04:26):
call up somebody and send an emailand get them to send me the data.
No, I want to be able to export the data.
And when the data come to me, I wantthem to be in database ready format.
So that's like a CSV or a similar format.
I once was using a softwareplatform, the name of which.
unfortunately, I cannot remember.
They said, sure, we can,we'll get you the data.
(04:47):
They send me the data as a PDF document.
That doesn't help me.
So paying attention to how do you getthe data out of your tool is important.
Other things that are important to me ingetting my work done as collaborators,
many of my research skills, I havecertain strengths as a researcher.
(05:08):
I like to think my main strengths arethinking clearly about good questions
data analysis is my weak link.
I'm sure I have other weak links too.
So then I need to bring insome collaborators to help me.
One of the main ways I getthese collaborators is through
my UC Berkeley connection.
I'm on the clinicalfaculty at UC Berkeley.
(05:29):
So I'm able to snag some super talentedgraduate students who want to produce
some publications and want to do research.
And that's good for me, becausethey're smart and talented.
Collaborators.
Another key thing for me, which issomething I was fortunate to learn
when I was a trainee, David Burns wasone of my first clinical supervisors.
Jason Luoma (05:53):
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (05:53):
And I was trained at the University of Pennsylvania,
and so David taught me to include,David was a practitioner also,
based at the university, but itwas really his private practice.
He taught me to include in mytreatment agreement, a paragraph.
It's asking the patient to giveme permission to use data from the
(06:19):
clinical record in research in a waythat does not identify the patient.
So the fact that I've been doingthis for my entire career gives
me access to a ton of data.
I recently had the insight, or maybepartly because I sit on an IRB as you do,
I'm more aware.
(06:41):
That I want to give peoplepermission or the option to opt out.
So in recent years, I give them theoption to opt out, but it's a routine
part of the treatment agreement.
So those are some of the key elementsof how I integrate my research.
into my clinical work and I could saymore about how I manage the time and
(07:02):
other things if that would be helpful.
Jason Luoma (07:04):
Yeah, that would be great at some point.
I have a number of follow up questionsfor what you've already said.
I think those are some really greattopics and one of the maybe first
would be I'm curious how you developthat habit of paying attention to The
questions that come up in your clinicalwork and how you manage to organize that
(07:28):
because I know part of what happens forme as a researcher is I have tons of
questions that come up and it, part ofwhat happens is they come and they go.
And if I don't record them orgo forward, they disappear.
And so I'm just curious how youhave developed that habit and
how you figure out which arethe ones you're going to chase.
Jackie Persons (07:47):
Let me say a little bit about that.
All of the research startswith well, not all of it.
The bulk of the research I dostarts with the data I collect
to monitor my patient's progress.
And I was very fortunate to be trainedas a graduate student where Dr.
Tim Beck was one of my first teachers.
(08:09):
I went over to the Beck Mood Clinicwhere I was taught to, before the
session with the depressed patient, askthe patient to come five minutes early
to the waiting room, fill out a BeckDepression Inventory, bring it in to me.
I would score it and I would plot it.
Jason Luoma (08:29):
Yeah,
Jackie Persons (08:29):
and use the data to guide the work.
It's very interesting that he didn'tintegrate that idea into his protocol.
But anyway, I won't go there.
Anyway, so where I'm saying whereI'm going with this is one of the
ways I develop research questionsis backwards, which is, I ask Okay,
so now Jackie, and sometimes Ihave some smart people helping me.
(08:51):
Okay, we have a large database now,which we do, of data collected in every
therapy session to monitor symptomsof depression, symptoms of anxiety.
I have a large intake batterythat provides a lot of data.
So often I'm thinking backwardsabout research questions, which
is, Okay, now that I have thesedata, What questions can I answer?
(09:16):
Presumably the data are collectedalso to answer certain questions.
The questions I'm most interestedin are questions about right now I'm
working on a study of session frequency.
Does session frequency contribute,is it related to outcome?
There's a couple of studies inthe literature suggesting it is.
(09:36):
And it's a constantquestion, not constant.
It's a frequent questionI confront in my clinical work.
Patient says, I want tomeet every other week.
I can tell you I don't liketo meet every other week.
But are there any data indicatingthat meeting every other week
is not actually a good idea?
You know what?
There are some data.
And I'm going to provide somemore because I have data.
(09:58):
And we could study that question.
Also And you probably do this too, Jason.
I have the top journals in the fieldsending me journal alerts every
month so I can see what questions thefield is asking and is interested in.
Not too long ago, Pim Kuypers and ArtNezu and some other people, I think,
(10:20):
had a special issue of consultingin, what is the name of that journal,
CPSP, Clinical Psychology Scienceand Practice, on the topic of non
response and worsening in treatment.
We're really interested in that.
And what they pointed out isit's an understudied topic.
We can understand why.
But as clinicians, we're especiallyinterested in, okay, so now this
(10:43):
patient is not getting better.
Why is that?
So I'm really interested inand I'm also, I'm interested
in the case conceptualization.
So I'm working on a project nowwith my colleague Garrett Ziv.
We have a large data set of a tonof longitudinal data, and we can
ask, does the presence of a caseconceptualization in the chart, mean
(11:08):
that when the patient has an episodeof worsening during treatment, they're
more likely to recover than if there'snot a conceptualization in the chart.
So these are questions that arejust part of our daily practice.
I don't know if I'm answering the questionof how do I figure out which To pursue.
Sometimes the answer is stupid,which is what data do I have?
Jason Luoma (11:31):
It sounds like part of what is somewhat unusual about your site is
having this large bank of data that'sbeen set aside and is organized in such
a way that it's accessible, which I thinkis maybe one thing for practice based
researchers think is how can I set upmy data collection in a way that will
result in a usable database over time andthat it may take a while to get there.
(11:56):
And I'm curious for yourself, howwas that the way you did it from the
beginning that you developed the databaseand you've been working largely off of
databases that were created, and thenon the backend looking at it for what
You know, what makes sense for you,what's interesting, what the field seems
(12:18):
interested in, or when you first gotstarted, did you manage to work research
projects into your practice in some otherway while you were waiting, for maybe a
few years for a database to build up tothe size where it has enough statistical
power and those kinds of things.
Jackie Persons (12:36):
It was some kind of hodgepodge of mostly the latter.
Jason Luoma (12:42):
So mostly waiting, getting the database going, really
focusing on data collection.
Mostly
Jackie Persons (12:46):
just I collected the data from the beginning, so then early on, I
had a very small database, and it was onlymy patients, because I didn't have a group
practice until later, so for the first20 years of my practice, it was just me.
So then after let's see in1999, which means, oh my God,
Jason Luoma (13:10):
25 years ago,
Jackie Persons (13:11):
sorry, 20 years after I started, I decided I
was going to go and look at myoutcomes of my depressed patients.
So I went into the data that Ihad and I created a database.
And I pulled out theones who met criteria.
I wanted patients who would havelikely met criteria for the randomized
trials, which means initial BeckDepression score of 20 or greater.
(13:34):
And I wanted to compare my outcomes tothe outcomes of the randomized trials.
Because those were the days wewere studying effectiveness.
So I'm thinking, okay, I'm goingto do an effectiveness study.
So I just went and got my dataand I entered it into a database.
And it wasn't a largedata set at that time.
I think there were like 45cases that met those criteria.
(13:56):
And I published them.
And I had a postdoc at the time whohelped me, and I hired a statistical
consultant to help me, and we produceda paper on that topic that was published
in, either it was published in CognitiveTherapy in Practice, or maybe, It was
published in, yeah, I think so, in BRAT.
I don't know.
So that was my first paper.
(14:17):
And then it was one of my first papers.
And then one of my colleagues hereat UC Berkeley, Anne Kring, wanted
to do a study of changes in positiveand negative affect over the course
of cognitive therapy for depression.
So then, We added the PANAS, the positiveand negative affect scale, to the routine
(14:39):
outcome monitoring packet that ourdepressed patients completed in every
session, which in those days was a boxin the waiting room where they would
go and get a piece of paper, right?
So we added the PANAS and wegot data from, I don't know, 30
or 40 cases, I don't remember.
And we did a study of the PANAS.
(15:00):
And so then we put those patients inthe same database as the other ones.
And so now the database is growing.
And then in about 2005, my colleague,Canon Thomas, Canon must've worked
with me on an earlier study.
Oh, in 2005, I was now part of agroup practice, so there were like
(15:23):
five of us, and we're all doingoutcome monitoring in every session.
Cannon said, you know what, we shouldmake a database out of all these data
from you and your colleagues, and all mycolleagues were using the same treatment
agreement that gave us permissionto collect the data for research.
So Cannon and I and ourresearch assistants, In about
(15:44):
2005 embarked on a project.
Oh, my God.
I wrote a paper about how topull your data into a database.
It just about killed me somewherebetween two and three years.
We're like, Pulling boxes of records outof storage in Livermore, bringing the
records to my office, covering the patientnames with the post it, passing the data
(16:09):
to the research assistants, enteringthe data, then we're proofing the data.
I don't know.
It just about killed me,but I have a database now.
I have 15, almost 1500 cases.
I have longitudinal data.
This database is like gold.
I have published like 10 papers out of it.
It's so much fun.
(16:29):
Longitude.
I have item by item scores on the vector.
You can hear how excited I get.
I love these data.
Anyway, so I have item by item scoreson the vector pressure inventory
from this large number of cases.
Longitudinal data.
There aren't many data sets likethis, and it has the potential
for a lot of cool studies.
Jason Luoma (16:50):
Yeah, it shows a great example of how, if you integrate data
collection into your day to day practice,how you can accumulate a tremendous amount
of data over time that has a complexity interms of the longitudinal quality of it,
session by session information that isn'toften available in many treatment studies.
(17:12):
The one of the other things you'vementioned a few times is collaborators
and you, I know you mentioned that youhave had a lot of collaborators have
gotten involved, graduate students andothers through affiliation with Berkeley.
So could you say a little bit more aboutthat affiliation How it came about and
how you have enough contact with graduatestudents such that they would even know
(17:35):
about your research or want to be involvedin in some sort of collaboration with you.
Jackie Persons (17:41):
Yeah I knew you would ask me this question, so I'm not
sure how it happened, but in 1999,which means 20 years after I arrived
in the Bay Area, UC Berkeley askedme to join the clinical faculty.
Clinical faculty means, as perhapsyou know, I am not paid a salary.
(18:03):
I'm not on the tenure track and Icontribute to the clinical training.
How did this happen?
I don't know.
Someone on the faculty, previously Ihad been on the clinical faculty over
at UCSF in the Department of Psychiatryand that happened because Ricardo
Munoz, who asked me to join the clinicalfaculty and do clinical teaching in
(18:25):
the depression clinic that he ran overat San Francisco General Hospital.
Ricardo was friends, you know how itis, Ricardo was friends with Tony Zeiss,
and Tony Zeiss and I were therapistsin a randomized trial that was being
done by Dolores Gallagher, so it's amatter of your professional context.
(18:48):
So then Ricardo wanted meto come and do teaching and
supervision for his, trainees.
And the thing is, thesetrainees are so talented.
So then I'm over there every weekteaching a course in cognitive therapy
for depression to the trainees who areseeing patients in the outpatient clinic,
(19:12):
the depression clinic that Ricardo isrunning at San Francisco General Hospital.
So then I'm presenting the data, thiswas in about 1985, and I'm saying, okay,
so now the current data, Beck's theorysays patients hold schemas, which get
activated, and cause depressive symptomsand then even when they recover from the
(19:34):
depressive episode you'd expect them tostill hold these schemas unless they were
actively treated but the fact is when youlook at the data usually patients are not
reporting these schemas anymore so there'ssomething funky going on here and one of
my students in the class said to me ohmaybe reporting of schemas is mood state
(19:54):
dependent and if you're not depressedIf you get asked about your schemas,
you say, no, I don't believe that.
Jason Luoma (20:00):
Uh Huh.
Jackie Persons (20:01):
So that was Jeannie Miranda.
So that's Jeannie's hypothesis.
So Jeannie and I did three studiesto test that hypothesis, and we
got our papers published in theJournal of Abnormal Psychology.
It was very cool.
So the, am I answering your question?
Jason Luoma (20:16):
I'm curious these days how much are you involved there?
Are you teaching a course?
Are you supervising students?
I'm just kind of curious what level of,what level of, because it sounds like it's
probably not paid and what level of effortdo you have to put in to unpaid work for,
local university to pay off in terms ofresearch collaborations, for example,
Jackie Persons (20:40):
your question is good.
The department brings me in about everytwo to three years to teach a semester
long course cognitive behavior therapy.
For which they do pay me.
Jason Luoma (20:53):
Yeah, okay as an adjunct.
Jackie Persons (20:54):
They pay me to teach that course, and I have learned to use
that opportunity to explicitly teach thestudents about progress monitoring, and I
spend a little bit of time talking abouthow if you, because these are scientist
practitioner types trained, right?
So I have an excuse for spendinga little bit of time talking
(21:17):
about how if you do this, youcould create a beautiful database.
And I have one.
And if you want to do some work with me,you just call me a little bit of time
talking about My database and encouragingstudents to come and work with me and
when I'm not teaching a course, then,although I'm getting old and tired.
(21:43):
So I used to every year.
I would provide clinical supervisionfor one of the graduate students,
which required basically an hour a weekplus of my time for which I was not
compensated accept in a token kind of way.
I think they might havepaid me 500 for the year.
So that was a big investment.
Occasionally, oh, more recently, Ihave said to the person who's matching
(22:08):
me with a student, I am willing todo this, if the student is willing
to work with me and To collect datafor a single case experimental design
while we're doing the clinical work.
How about that?
Jason Luoma (22:22):
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (22:23):
And if it's not a single case experimental design, let's figure
out how to get some data collection.
See if we can get a paper out of thisproject because the UC Berkeley students,
they have an interest in getting a paper.
I have an interest in getting a paper,
Jason Luoma (22:35):
right?
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (22:36):
I just let the paper.
the person who sends me thestudents, send me a student who'd
be interested in doing some researchin the process of the clinical work.
That has been somewhat successful,but not hugely successful.
These graduate students, they getpulled in a million directions.
Last week at a meeting, she said, Oh,that case we were going to write up.
(22:58):
I should call you about it.
Has she called me?
No, it's okay.
Jason Luoma (23:04):
It's the same as getting dissertations published.
Yes.
Jackie Persons (23:07):
Yes.
Jason Luoma (23:07):
There's been a few mentions about money and I'm curious
how you think about money in this.
You've talked about hiring astats consultant at one point.
I know that you, At least in the pastvolunteered, most of this time in the
past was essentially volunteer time.
It wasn't compensated.
So I think you used to set asidea day, a week or something.
(23:30):
So could you talk abouthow you think about that?
Because.
The all this time you're spending onresearch, you could be spending seeing
clients and making money and theneven sometimes you're having to pay
money to say, go to a conferenceto present or hire a consultant.
So how do you think about, how doyou think about like how much you're
(23:51):
willing to volunteer, how much ofyour time you're willing to set aside
to these activities that don't makeany money directly, at least, and how
much of a budget do you put to this?
Jackie Persons (24:02):
Your question is a good one.
And I'll say a few things.
It's I guess one thought I have aboutwhat to say is just to acknowledge that
I am a privileged person in the sensethat When I finished graduate school,
I did not have a large student debt.
Jason Luoma (24:19):
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (24:20):
I have a husband who, number one, makes a good salary.
It doesn't make a huge dollarbecause he's a faculty person
himself here at UC Berkeley.
But but related, he's also anacademic, and so he's supportive
of my academic efforts.
So that is very important.
(24:42):
I have been known, on a coupleof occasions, I wrote and
got funded grant proposals.
A long time ago, I wrote an NIMHsmall grant that gave me about
40, 000 to pay for my research.
That was cool.
Jason Luoma (24:57):
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (24:58):
And Kelly Kerner and I wrote a small business
innovation research grant.
That funded our work to study teachingclinicians to do progress monitoring.
So that was fun, too, to havesome funding for the research.
Since that time, however, mostly, I, itdoesn't feel worthwhile to me to take
(25:21):
the time to write the research grant.
I just devote the time to the research.
And in general.
I just do the work because I lovedoing the work and I do not get
compensated for it, and as you pointout, in a certain way, it costs money.
Because Garrett and I are going topresent a piece of research we're doing
(25:44):
on deterioration at the conferencein Philadelphia, and that means we're
all, paying to go to Philadelphia.
I guess the way I think about it is Andthe closest it comes to money is the fact
that I am doing this, and I'm going toPhiladelphia presenting my work and such
and the other, it makes me a slightly bigdeal, which means I can set a higher fee.
Jason Luoma (26:07):
Huh.
Jackie Persons (26:08):
So I can collect a little bit for it in the sense that
I can set a higher fee, pay a little
Jason Luoma (26:14):
bit more per hour.
Jackie Persons (26:15):
And so my patients in a certain way are funding my
research through the fees they'repaying me, which are perhaps higher
because I have a research reputation.
Certainly here in the Bay area, there'sa lot of sophisticated consumers.
If you see somebody who's doing research,then that's the person they want to see.
And they're willing topay a little bit more.
(26:36):
more for it.
But fundamentally, Jason, theanswer is I do it because I enjoy
doing it and it costs me money.
But that's a joke in my house.
It's probably I'll never retire.
Why?
Because I don't really have a analternate life or other things I
enjoy doing that's not completelytrue, but it's pretty close to true.
Jason Luoma (26:58):
Hm
Jackie Persons (26:59):
have two grandchildren who are, Pretty special.
And my daughter lives right here.
But mostly I just I enjoy it.
It's rewarding.
And so that's the bestanswer I can give you.
Jason Luoma (27:11):
And what do you find motivating on a day to day basis to
stay involved in research and and blockout the time that's necessary to do it?
What aspects of the researchprocess are the ones that, and if.
Give you energy or feed you.
Jackie Persons (27:26):
The most exciting aspects to me are conceptualizing the questions.
Like Garrett and I, GarrettZeve and I were studying
deterioration and lack of progress.
I'm really interested in deteriorationand lack of progress, which
are understudied topics in theliterature and under attended to
(27:48):
topics in clinical work as well.
So certain ideas are exciting to me.
Research is horrible in manyrespects, it's so tedious and certain.
The parts that I enjoy arethinking about good questions.
I also set aside Fridays for myresearch and I have two Three, actually,
(28:12):
undergraduate research assistants.
Actually, they're post baccalaureatestudents who are wanting to get
ready to apply to graduate school.
I imagine you have some of themaround your operation, too.
I enjoy working with the young people.
I enjoy mentoring themand bringing them along.
I like to write up the paper.
(28:34):
I like whoever did the dataanalysis, which is usually not
me, to write the data analysis.
And then I like to write theintroduction and the discussion.
It's very important tome how it's written.
One of my favorite papers in theentire world is a paper written
by Daryl Bem about how to writean empirical journal article.
Did you ever read that, Jason?
Jason Luoma (28:56):
Yeah, I think it's been a long time, but it probably.
Jackie Persons (29:00):
Yeah, so that paper is 30 years old and it's a little bit out
of date in certain respects, but hesays you know you want to start with a
problem that if you explain the problemto your grandmother, she'd say oh yeah, I
want to know the answer to that problem.
I like the writing.
I like to do clear writing is importantto me and I enjoy it very much.
(29:21):
Those are the pieces I enjoy, thewriting and the conceptualizing and
the thinking about the questions.
And I don't know, for some reasonI, I love looking at, I don't
love looking at it, but I love theidea that I have this beautiful
database it's just thrilling to me.
And I'm working on creating anotherdatabase now, although, at the same time.
(29:42):
It is so annoying.
Jason Luoma (29:45):
You also seem to enjoy at least some level
of mentoring and supervising.
And I
Jackie Persons (29:50):
do.
Jason Luoma (29:51):
Yeah.
And you just mentioned that youhave some, that sounded like
volunteer RA's who are like postbac and training some experience.
I'm curious if you could talk more aboutthat because my experience with working
with folks who are in that spot has beenpretty mixed that We often will have to
(30:12):
go through quite a few people before wehave, before we find one person who's
reliable enough to, be from a productproductivity standpoint, at least be
able to contribute enough to even comeclose to balancing out the amount of time
we had to invest in them to try to getthem oriented and on board and things.
(30:37):
And so I'm curious how you go aboutselecting people screening people
onboarding and supporting those volunteersin such a way that that it's successful
enough that you keep continuing it.
Jackie Persons (30:52):
For the most part, I have been successful, although I would
say at the current moment, I have one.
That I'm having to ease her outfor exactly the reason you say the
amount of energy that I need to putin to get her work or contribution
up to half of what I needed.
It does not compute.
(31:14):
And so I had to let her know lastweek that this is not working
and I need to ease her out.
It was not pretty.
I have to say.
I think I must, I'mtrying to learn from this.
I think what I'm learning is I waited toolong to do, I should have done it earlier
because I don't know how long we've beengoing along, but she got the idea that
(31:37):
things were fine, which they weren't.
I didn't speak up, maybe becauseI thought it was ugly and now
of course it is ugly but maybethat's because I waited too long.
But you're asking me a better question,which is how I've been more successful.
I've had a lot of fantastic.
People.
I don't know, how do I screen them?
(31:57):
I ask them to send me their CV.
I like to pick someone, if possible,who has previously worked in
another lab in the university.
And been able to be successfulthere because my lab, so I have is
(32:19):
hesitate even to use the word lab,this work setting is unstructured.
It's not completely unstructured, butit's a little idiosyncratic and only
not everybody can be successful here.
So I want you to have experiencein an academic setting.
Often they're UC Berkeleystudents, so they're pretty bright.
(32:40):
I've only had to let go, Iwould say three out of 15 or 20.
And some of them have just been fantastic,detail oriented able to juggle lots
of different things, remember thisweek what we were doing last week.
What can I say?
What, how else do I screen them?
Jason Luoma (33:02):
How do you supervise them?
How often do you meet with them?
Is it in a group?
Is it one on one?
How often?
What are the kinds ofthings you talk about?
Perhaps some of it, it sounds likesome of it might be in the guidance
you provide or the support you provideperhaps and maybe we've been too lean
(33:22):
in terms of how much we put in andmaybe if we invested more, perhaps
it would be more likely to work out.
So I'm curious aboutthe supervision process.
Jackie Persons (33:33):
Yeah.
I'm happy to tell you about thatbut I think you're exactly right.
You want to be careful.
You're not investing morethan you're getting back.
The other thing I do when I'm screeningis I ask the student to, tell me what
is your proposed career path and howdoes working here with me fit into it?
I want to hear a coherent storyabout that, because I'm very aware
(33:56):
that you're volunteering your time.
I don't want to be justtaking advantage of you.
I want you to have an experience herethat's going to help you move forward.
So let me answer thequestion about Sabrina.
I have a google doc where Ipost a message for the RAs.
The RAs come on Friday.
They arrive at 10.
(34:16):
They leave at 4 plus or minus.
When you arrive at 10, read thismessage about For, and usually for
each one, I'll say a priority foryou today is could you do this?
I'm going to send you an emailwith some articles I would like
you to pull from the library.
I have data from these participants.
(34:38):
Would you go and pull it from thesoftware monitoring tool and enter it
into the database and then proof it?
So I leave them certain tasks to do.
We have a research meeting at 11.
Garrett is there.
The three RAs are there.
I'm there.
Garrett Zebe is like my number twohere in the research enterprise.
(34:59):
So I hear from the studentsabout what they're working on.
Do they have any questions?
We talk with, like Garrett is goingto come next time with his results
for the deterioration study, whichwe're presenting in Philadelphia.
One of my students wants to do a studyof the data from the intake packet in
(35:24):
which the patients report on history oftrauma, do those data predict outcome?
So she, I asked her did last timetell us where are you and what help
do you need to move that forward?
And then last week I met with each onefor 15 or 20 minutes while I had to tell
the one that she needed to that we weredone that took a little bit of time.
Jason Luoma (35:47):
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (35:48):
But usually I'm not meeting with them individually, usually,
I need them to be pretty good at, if Isend you this email saying please get me
these articles, I need you to understandthe format that I want the articles to be
named, how to get them into my articlesbox, I want them all entered into Zotero,
I want you to send me that this is whatI want, it's all written down, read that
(36:10):
please, and I need it to happen I don'tknow if I'm answering your question.
Jason Luoma (36:15):
Yeah, no, that's great.
So they're actually coming on site.
And so
Jackie Persons (36:20):
yes, they are.
Jason Luoma (36:21):
I guess part of screening is going to be, you need to come
here on Fridays during these times.
And so if they can't dedicateWhatever that was six hours a week.
Jackie Persons (36:31):
That's right.
Jason Luoma (36:31):
Basically every week, then they're not eligible.
And so they're having to makea commitment from the beginning
and they're also on site.
I like that, that's interesting becauseI could see how that would help.
They're there.
They're there with other people.
They're there with other RAswho are hanging out together
and supporting each other
Jackie Persons (36:51):
together.
Yeah.
Jason Luoma (36:52):
Yeah.
And you have a regular meetingwhere you meet with them.
And do you have a minimum commitmentthat they make at the beginning for
the number of weeks that they willparticipate or how do you hash out that
kind of sense of how long they're goingto volunteer for, at least initially?
Jackie Persons (37:11):
Oh my God.
I can't quite remember.
I think I do ask themto commit for a year.
But I can't remember, but yes, I amasking at least for a semester, UC
Berkeley is on the semester system.
So give me a commitment for a semester.
And it is a big commitment10 to four Fridays.
(37:32):
And onsite and.
When I moved into this new space in2015, my landlord and I collaborated
with building out the kitchen.
So it's a little bit extra big andit has a table for the research
assistants and a cabinet where eachone of them can have a little box
(37:52):
where they store some of their things.
So it's designed to support the research.
Jason Luoma (37:59):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah.
It's really interesting.
I think we, we've definitely takenquite a bit of a different tack
and more eased people in and oftenhaven't had people dedicated to
working on site and That's it.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I'm gonna put some more thoughtinto that because we have been
thinking about potentially startingto have research volunteers.
(38:21):
It's been a few years sincewe've had any research volunteers
because it was so uneven, but we'rethinking about doing it again.
So that's really interesting.
Curious.
If you can share any advice thatyou'd have for, say early career
psychologists to if you came from ascientist practitioner program, they
(38:42):
have an interest in research in andthey're in private practice, if that's
an individual practice or group practice.
And I wonder what kind of advice youhave about for them in terms of thinking
about how to conduct research in.
In, in, in that context,
Jackie Persons (39:00):
Certainly.
Number one.
You're going to want to integrate intoyour clinical work data collection, and
you're going to want to be collectingsymptom measures at a minimum.
And I'm really interested in developingor in finding more measures to monitor
psychological maintaining mechanisms.
(39:21):
David Clark was here last week teachingus about the treatment of social anxiety
disorder, and so I can see he's got acouple of measures of safety behaviors
that are commonly used by people whohave social anxiety disorder and beliefs.
If I can get those measures andsymptom measures and monitor them over
time, there's a paper right there.
(39:44):
Anyway, so in private practice,you're going to want to devote time
to getting a good mechanism for datacollection, which is a beautiful thing
to do in practice, because there aretons of data showing that measurement
based care leads to better outcomes.
Randomized trials show that.
So it's a great thing bothfor your clinical practice
(40:06):
and potential for research.
I would add a paragraph to yourtreatment agreement asking your patients
to give you consent for research.
And if you go to my website,you can snag the one I use,
which was reviewed by our IRB.
Those would be the two key elements.
The, maybe another key element,for me, it's been very important
(40:28):
to participate in the ABCT.
Or if you're not a cognitive behaviortherapist, some other scientific society
I go to the conference every year andI'm part of a group of practitioners,
but I'm also part of the largercommunity of evidence based practitioners
and scientists in clinical science.
(40:51):
And being part of that community ispart of what allows me to do research
in ways that I could spell out,but um, otherwise I'm too isolated.
I'm just sitting overin my clinical practice.
Research will not happen unless I'mpart of the larger community, so that's
another piece I would encourage people to.
(41:12):
And I saw something on the list nottoo long ago, people, a clinician
saying when I was a faculty person, mydepartment would pay for me to go to the
conference and now I'm a practitioner.
Nobody's paying for meto go to the conference.
I'm trying to figureout if I should do it.
I don't know.
My, my head just explodeswhen I hear that.
I don't know.
What can I say?
(41:33):
Going to the conference, you learn aton of things and it opens up your mind.
You're going to learn clinically,you see what research is going on,
and it allows you to participatein the larger community.
Unless you do that, you're notgoing to get any research done.
Jason Luoma (41:50):
Yeah, I agree.
That's a reallyunderappreciated component.
Of being able to conduct researchout in a non academic setting in
the academic setting, you have thatalmost inbuilt flow of information
about what's happening in the field.
You have the trainees or students you'reworking with, and they're telling you
about what they're reading and they'rewriting papers on the newest stuff and
(42:12):
you're having to just by grading them,you're learning about what's happening
and all kinds of brown bags happening and,You're out in private practice and unless
you're really mindful about it, you canbecome very siloed easily and isolated
from other practitioners and particularlyones who know more about what's happening.
(42:33):
That's on more on the cuttingedge and where the field's going.
And that's definitely something I'veseen with you that you have been.
A real leader, you were at one pointpresident of ABCT, the Association for
Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies,the largest, I think the largest
real association about like evidencebased therapies in the world.
(42:53):
And and being involved in yourprofessional community and staying
aware of what's happening isreally key to being relevant.
And it sounds like that also ispart of how you develop some of your
collaborators as well, in addition to whatyou talked about more locally at Berkeley.
So I think that's a great example.
Jackie Persons (43:15):
Part of how I develop collaboratives, but also I think
it's part of the rewards for me.
I'm going to go to the conference.
Garrett is going to presentthe paper we're working on.
I'm going to chair this symposium.
Rob DeRubis is going to be our discussant.
Adele Hayes.
is going to present some of herwork on sudden gains and losses.
(43:36):
I am truly part of theinternational scientific community.
These are my colleagues andmy professional friends.
And that's very important to me.
It's very rewarding to have.
Those colleagues and friendsbe part of the world I live in.
Jason Luoma (43:52):
And yeah, and you're a great example of how that's possible
that, someone who's in private practicedoesn't have to be isolated and they don't
have to be a consumer, like they can beproducing knowledge and influencing other
people through a variety of means andthat is, that definitely is a possibility
and I've seen lots of people do it.
(44:13):
I don't know if I've ever seen anybody.
Produce as much research asyou have in private practice?
But, I think you're a real, you're areal leader there and a good model for
other people to be able to think abouthow they might stretch themselves and
open themselves up to new avenues.
So I really thank you for that.
Jackie Persons (44:32):
I'll just say one thing, which is when I was early in my career,
very young, I decided, okay, Jackie,because I have a certain ambition.
And.
Okay, Jackie, the rule for youis every year you go to the
ABCT and every year you present.
That's my rule.
Every year I go to theconference, every year I present.
(44:54):
And Those years add up.
Jason Luoma (44:56):
Yeah.
And it's a competitive conference, right?
You don't, it's not necessarilyeasy to present every year.
Jackie Persons (45:02):
Oh, you can't believe some of the submissions
I've submitted that got turned down.
Jason Luoma (45:07):
Yeah.
So you have to really put some thoughtinto it to get to that, to get to that
where you can actually be You know,seen as relevant enough to be able
to present and so that's interesting.
I like that as a guideline.
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (45:19):
And some of my presentations are clinical
presentations, I get invited to do amaster clinician training workshop.
That's, I'll count that.
It counts.
And like my idea of heaven is, I'mgoing to the conference this year, I'm
chairing a symposium, and we have anempirical paper on an important topic.
And I've got big deal presenters,and then a couple of young people
(45:41):
too, presenting in the symposium.
That's my idea of heaven.
Jason Luoma (45:46):
That's fun.
All right.
Any last things you want to share orsay, things that you were thinking
about, but didn't get to say yetas we Get close to wrapping up.
Jackie Persons (45:57):
Thank you, Jason.
You did a good job ofasking good questions.
So I don't think there's anythingimportant that I would like to
say that I did not already say.
Thank you.
Jason Luoma (46:08):
Yeah, this has been really fantastic.
You you've been a colleague ofmine for quite a few years on
the IRB that we helped create.
And for folks listening, we,Jackie, myself and a number of
other people created an independentIRB nonprofit IRB called BHRC.
And a number of the papers thatJackie's written about how to conduct
(46:32):
research in a practice based settingsare linked from that website.
So anybody's interestedin that it's BHRCIRB.
org.
And it's a good place to go tolook at a number of the papers that
Jackie's written and other membershave written about conducting
research in practice based settings.
And so there are a lot, there are a lot ofmore, a lot more concrete resources there.
Jackie Persons (46:53):
Yeah, also on that website, Jason, is the text for material
you can add to your treatment agreementto ask your patients for research consent.
Posted on that website also.
Jason Luoma (47:05):
Exactly, yeah.
Thanks for all you've done.
I know you've given away lots ofknowledge over the years and um,
Support a lot of other people indeveloping the capacity to do research
and in practice based settings.
And here's another example of that.
So thanks for having you on the show.
Jackie Persons (47:22):
Thank you so much, Jason.
Very enjoyable to talk with you today.
Jason Luoma (47:26):
If you'd like to learn more about Dr.
Persons and her work, be sure tocheck out the links in the show notes,
including articles and resourceson research in private practice.
And if you found this episode helpful,don't forget to subscribe, leave a
review, and share it with anyone whomight be interested in these insights.
Also, if you know an amazing researcheryou'd love to see interviewed, so
(47:47):
that we can learn more about howthey do it, please let me know.
Thanks for tuning in to theResearch Matters Podcast,
and we'll see you next time.
Welcome to the Research Matters podcast, where I interview leading
researchers in psychology and othersocial sciences in order to understand
what makes them so good at what they do.
My goal is to draw out the tips, tricks,habits, and routines of extraordinarily
productive researchers in a waythat leads to actionable methods
(00:21):
that can improve your own research.
A warning for psychology studentsand early career researchers.
If you enjoy the tribulations ofwriter's block and a haphazard
workflow, this podcast is not for you.
(00:56):
Today we have a specialepisode featuring Dr.
Jackie Persons, a pioneer in thefield of cognitive behavioral therapy.
With over 35 years of experiencein private practice, Dr.
Persons is not only a highly regardedclinician, but also a researcher,
Consultant and clinical professor atthe University of California, Berkeley.
(01:17):
She's internationally recognized for hergroundbreaking work on case formulation
in CBT, and for being a remarkablyproductive researcher using data
directly from her clinical practice.
A very rare feat in those workingin practice based settings.
Today, she shares insights on howshe's managed to bridge the gap between
(01:37):
research and practice, Her passion forhypothesis driven care and much more.
We're thrilled to have her on the show.
So let's dive in to thisfascinating conversation with Dr.
Jackie Persons.
All right.
Hi, Jackie.
It's so great to have youon the interview today.
Jackie Persons (01:54):
Thank you, Jason.
Jason Luoma (01:56):
I just thought we'd start off if you could tell us a
little bit about your work context,how you managed to integrate research
into private practice, how just.
Really challenging.
That is, there are so few people who areable to do that, even though there are
a lot of people who want to, and so I'mreally excited to be able to talk to you
today about how you've managed to do it.
And you've been doingit for several decades.
(02:18):
I'm really looking forwardto learning from you.
So if you could just start off with alittle bit about how you do that, how
you've come to do that would be great.
Jackie Persons (02:26):
I'm happy to do that.
It's one of my excuse me, passions.
So if I say too much, please just stop me.
I work in private practice.
There's a small group of us here.
And so private practice and seeingpatients, adults who have mood and
anxiety, that's my main source of income.
And, My research is a, is veryimportant to me and something that
(02:53):
I've been doing for a very long time.
So the question you're asking meis, how do I get research done
in a clinical practice setting?
And I can say a few thingsabout it and then you'll tell
me what I should say more.
One.
way that I have been successfulin doing this is to integrate my
research very tightly into my clinicalwork in a couple of different ways.
(03:18):
One is I try to pay attention to during myclinical work, the questions I have that
come up in my clinical work and to thinkabout, can I collect some data to examine
those questions or test those hypotheses.
And can I test those hypotheses bothduring the clinical work and have the
(03:40):
potential to write up a research paper?
Because there's a lot of interestingquestions that we all confront
every day in our clinical work.
And we're doing hypothesis testing,ideally, in our clinical work.
And we're doing measurement based care.
I hope.
So what that means is collecting a lotof data to guide the clinical work.
(04:05):
So I try to integrate the researchand the clinical work in the data
collection and in the questions.
I try to make sure I'm usinga platform an online tool.
for collecting the datathat is research friendly.
So I personally can export the datato my database rather than having to
(04:26):
call up somebody and send an emailand get them to send me the data.
No, I want to be able to export the data.
And when the data come to me, I wantthem to be in database ready format.
So that's like a CSV or a similar format.
I once was using a softwareplatform, the name of which.
unfortunately, I cannot remember.
They said, sure, we can,we'll get you the data.
(04:47):
They send me the data as a PDF document.
That doesn't help me.
So paying attention to how do you getthe data out of your tool is important.
Other things that are important to me ingetting my work done as collaborators,
many of my research skills, I havecertain strengths as a researcher.
(05:08):
I like to think my main strengths arethinking clearly about good questions
data analysis is my weak link.
I'm sure I have other weak links too.
So then I need to bring insome collaborators to help me.
One of the main ways I getthese collaborators is through
my UC Berkeley connection.
I'm on the clinicalfaculty at UC Berkeley.
(05:29):
So I'm able to snag some super talentedgraduate students who want to produce
some publications and want to do research.
And that's good for me, becausethey're smart and talented.
Collaborators.
Another key thing for me, which issomething I was fortunate to learn
when I was a trainee, David Burns wasone of my first clinical supervisors.
Jason Luoma (05:53):
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (05:53):
And I was trained at the University of Pennsylvania,
and so David taught me to include,David was a practitioner also,
based at the university, but itwas really his private practice.
He taught me to include in mytreatment agreement, a paragraph.
It's asking the patient to giveme permission to use data from the
(06:19):
clinical record in research in a waythat does not identify the patient.
So the fact that I've been doingthis for my entire career gives
me access to a ton of data.
I recently had the insight, or maybepartly because I sit on an IRB as you do,
I'm more aware.
(06:41):
That I want to give peoplepermission or the option to opt out.
So in recent years, I give them theoption to opt out, but it's a routine
part of the treatment agreement.
So those are some of the key elementsof how I integrate my research.
into my clinical work and I could saymore about how I manage the time and
(07:02):
other things if that would be helpful.
Jason Luoma (07:04):
Yeah, that would be great at some point.
I have a number of follow up questionsfor what you've already said.
I think those are some really greattopics and one of the maybe first
would be I'm curious how you developthat habit of paying attention to The
questions that come up in your clinicalwork and how you manage to organize that
(07:28):
because I know part of what happens forme as a researcher is I have tons of
questions that come up and it, part ofwhat happens is they come and they go.
And if I don't record them orgo forward, they disappear.
And so I'm just curious how youhave developed that habit and
how you figure out which arethe ones you're going to chase.
Jackie Persons (07:47):
Let me say a little bit about that.
All of the research startswith well, not all of it.
The bulk of the research I dostarts with the data I collect
to monitor my patient's progress.
And I was very fortunate to be trainedas a graduate student where Dr.
Tim Beck was one of my first teachers.
(08:09):
I went over to the Beck Mood Clinicwhere I was taught to, before the
session with the depressed patient, askthe patient to come five minutes early
to the waiting room, fill out a BeckDepression Inventory, bring it in to me.
I would score it and I would plot it.
Jason Luoma (08:29):
Yeah,
Jackie Persons (08:29):
and use the data to guide the work.
It's very interesting that he didn'tintegrate that idea into his protocol.
But anyway, I won't go there.
Anyway, so where I'm saying whereI'm going with this is one of the
ways I develop research questionsis backwards, which is, I ask Okay,
so now Jackie, and sometimes Ihave some smart people helping me.
(08:51):
Okay, we have a large database now,which we do, of data collected in every
therapy session to monitor symptomsof depression, symptoms of anxiety.
I have a large intake batterythat provides a lot of data.
So often I'm thinking backwardsabout research questions, which
is, Okay, now that I have thesedata, What questions can I answer?
(09:16):
Presumably the data are collectedalso to answer certain questions.
The questions I'm most interestedin are questions about right now I'm
working on a study of session frequency.
Does session frequency contribute,is it related to outcome?
There's a couple of studies inthe literature suggesting it is.
(09:36):
And it's a constantquestion, not constant.
It's a frequent questionI confront in my clinical work.
Patient says, I want tomeet every other week.
I can tell you I don't liketo meet every other week.
But are there any data indicatingthat meeting every other week
is not actually a good idea?
You know what?
There are some data.
And I'm going to provide somemore because I have data.
(09:58):
And we could study that question.
Also And you probably do this too, Jason.
I have the top journals in the fieldsending me journal alerts every
month so I can see what questions thefield is asking and is interested in.
Not too long ago, Pim Kuypers and ArtNezu and some other people, I think,
(10:20):
had a special issue of consultingin, what is the name of that journal,
CPSP, Clinical Psychology Scienceand Practice, on the topic of non
response and worsening in treatment.
We're really interested in that.
And what they pointed out isit's an understudied topic.
We can understand why.
But as clinicians, we're especiallyinterested in, okay, so now this
(10:43):
patient is not getting better.
Why is that?
So I'm really interested inand I'm also, I'm interested
in the case conceptualization.
So I'm working on a project nowwith my colleague Garrett Ziv.
We have a large data set of a tonof longitudinal data, and we can
ask, does the presence of a caseconceptualization in the chart, mean
(11:08):
that when the patient has an episodeof worsening during treatment, they're
more likely to recover than if there'snot a conceptualization in the chart.
So these are questions that arejust part of our daily practice.
I don't know if I'm answering the questionof how do I figure out which To pursue.
Sometimes the answer is stupid,which is what data do I have?
Jason Luoma (11:31):
It sounds like part of what is somewhat unusual about your site is
having this large bank of data that'sbeen set aside and is organized in such
a way that it's accessible, which I thinkis maybe one thing for practice based
researchers think is how can I set upmy data collection in a way that will
result in a usable database over time andthat it may take a while to get there.
(11:56):
And I'm curious for yourself, howwas that the way you did it from the
beginning that you developed the databaseand you've been working largely off of
databases that were created, and thenon the backend looking at it for what
You know, what makes sense for you,what's interesting, what the field seems
(12:18):
interested in, or when you first gotstarted, did you manage to work research
projects into your practice in some otherway while you were waiting, for maybe a
few years for a database to build up tothe size where it has enough statistical
power and those kinds of things.
Jackie Persons (12:36):
It was some kind of hodgepodge of mostly the latter.
Jason Luoma (12:42):
So mostly waiting, getting the database going, really
focusing on data collection.
Mostly
Jackie Persons (12:46):
just I collected the data from the beginning, so then early on, I
had a very small database, and it was onlymy patients, because I didn't have a group
practice until later, so for the first20 years of my practice, it was just me.
So then after let's see in1999, which means, oh my God,
Jason Luoma (13:10):
25 years ago,
Jackie Persons (13:11):
sorry, 20 years after I started, I decided I
was going to go and look at myoutcomes of my depressed patients.
So I went into the data that Ihad and I created a database.
And I pulled out theones who met criteria.
I wanted patients who would havelikely met criteria for the randomized
trials, which means initial BeckDepression score of 20 or greater.
(13:34):
And I wanted to compare my outcomes tothe outcomes of the randomized trials.
Because those were the days wewere studying effectiveness.
So I'm thinking, okay, I'm goingto do an effectiveness study.
So I just went and got my dataand I entered it into a database.
And it wasn't a largedata set at that time.
I think there were like 45cases that met those criteria.
(13:56):
And I published them.
And I had a postdoc at the time whohelped me, and I hired a statistical
consultant to help me, and we produceda paper on that topic that was published
in, either it was published in CognitiveTherapy in Practice, or maybe, It was
published in, yeah, I think so, in BRAT.
I don't know.
So that was my first paper.
(14:17):
And then it was one of my first papers.
And then one of my colleagues hereat UC Berkeley, Anne Kring, wanted
to do a study of changes in positiveand negative affect over the course
of cognitive therapy for depression.
So then, We added the PANAS, the positiveand negative affect scale, to the routine
(14:39):
outcome monitoring packet that ourdepressed patients completed in every
session, which in those days was a boxin the waiting room where they would
go and get a piece of paper, right?
So we added the PANAS and wegot data from, I don't know, 30
or 40 cases, I don't remember.
And we did a study of the PANAS.
(15:00):
And so then we put those patients inthe same database as the other ones.
And so now the database is growing.
And then in about 2005, my colleague,Canon Thomas, Canon must've worked
with me on an earlier study.
Oh, in 2005, I was now part of agroup practice, so there were like
(15:23):
five of us, and we're all doingoutcome monitoring in every session.
Cannon said, you know what, we shouldmake a database out of all these data
from you and your colleagues, and all mycolleagues were using the same treatment
agreement that gave us permissionto collect the data for research.
So Cannon and I and ourresearch assistants, In about
(15:44):
2005 embarked on a project.
Oh, my God.
I wrote a paper about how topull your data into a database.
It just about killed me somewherebetween two and three years.
We're like, Pulling boxes of records outof storage in Livermore, bringing the
records to my office, covering the patientnames with the post it, passing the data
(16:09):
to the research assistants, enteringthe data, then we're proofing the data.
I don't know.
It just about killed me,but I have a database now.
I have 15, almost 1500 cases.
I have longitudinal data.
This database is like gold.
I have published like 10 papers out of it.
It's so much fun.
(16:29):
Longitude.
I have item by item scores on the vector.
You can hear how excited I get.
I love these data.
Anyway, so I have item by item scoreson the vector pressure inventory
from this large number of cases.
Longitudinal data.
There aren't many data sets likethis, and it has the potential
for a lot of cool studies.
Jason Luoma (16:50):
Yeah, it shows a great example of how, if you integrate data
collection into your day to day practice,how you can accumulate a tremendous amount
of data over time that has a complexity interms of the longitudinal quality of it,
session by session information that isn'toften available in many treatment studies.
(17:12):
The one of the other things you'vementioned a few times is collaborators
and you, I know you mentioned that youhave had a lot of collaborators have
gotten involved, graduate students andothers through affiliation with Berkeley.
So could you say a little bit more aboutthat affiliation How it came about and
how you have enough contact with graduatestudents such that they would even know
(17:35):
about your research or want to be involvedin in some sort of collaboration with you.
Jackie Persons (17:41):
Yeah I knew you would ask me this question, so I'm not
sure how it happened, but in 1999,which means 20 years after I arrived
in the Bay Area, UC Berkeley askedme to join the clinical faculty.
Clinical faculty means, as perhapsyou know, I am not paid a salary.
(18:03):
I'm not on the tenure track and Icontribute to the clinical training.
How did this happen?
I don't know.
Someone on the faculty, previously Ihad been on the clinical faculty over
at UCSF in the Department of Psychiatryand that happened because Ricardo
Munoz, who asked me to join the clinicalfaculty and do clinical teaching in
(18:25):
the depression clinic that he ran overat San Francisco General Hospital.
Ricardo was friends, you know how itis, Ricardo was friends with Tony Zeiss,
and Tony Zeiss and I were therapistsin a randomized trial that was being
done by Dolores Gallagher, so it's amatter of your professional context.
(18:48):
So then Ricardo wanted meto come and do teaching and
supervision for his, trainees.
And the thing is, thesetrainees are so talented.
So then I'm over there every weekteaching a course in cognitive therapy
for depression to the trainees who areseeing patients in the outpatient clinic,
(19:12):
the depression clinic that Ricardo isrunning at San Francisco General Hospital.
So then I'm presenting the data, thiswas in about 1985, and I'm saying, okay,
so now the current data, Beck's theorysays patients hold schemas, which get
activated, and cause depressive symptomsand then even when they recover from the
(19:34):
depressive episode you'd expect them tostill hold these schemas unless they were
actively treated but the fact is when youlook at the data usually patients are not
reporting these schemas anymore so there'ssomething funky going on here and one of
my students in the class said to me ohmaybe reporting of schemas is mood state
(19:54):
dependent and if you're not depressedIf you get asked about your schemas,
you say, no, I don't believe that.
Jason Luoma (20:00):
Uh Huh.
Jackie Persons (20:01):
So that was Jeannie Miranda.
So that's Jeannie's hypothesis.
So Jeannie and I did three studiesto test that hypothesis, and we
got our papers published in theJournal of Abnormal Psychology.
It was very cool.
So the, am I answering your question?
Jason Luoma (20:16):
I'm curious these days how much are you involved there?
Are you teaching a course?
Are you supervising students?
I'm just kind of curious what level of,what level of, because it sounds like it's
probably not paid and what level of effortdo you have to put in to unpaid work for,
local university to pay off in terms ofresearch collaborations, for example,
Jackie Persons (20:40):
your question is good.
The department brings me in about everytwo to three years to teach a semester
long course cognitive behavior therapy.
For which they do pay me.
Jason Luoma (20:53):
Yeah, okay as an adjunct.
Jackie Persons (20:54):
They pay me to teach that course, and I have learned to use
that opportunity to explicitly teach thestudents about progress monitoring, and I
spend a little bit of time talking abouthow if you, because these are scientist
practitioner types trained, right?
So I have an excuse for spendinga little bit of time talking
(21:17):
about how if you do this, youcould create a beautiful database.
And I have one.
And if you want to do some work with me,you just call me a little bit of time
talking about My database and encouragingstudents to come and work with me and
when I'm not teaching a course, then,although I'm getting old and tired.
(21:43):
So I used to every year.
I would provide clinical supervisionfor one of the graduate students,
which required basically an hour a weekplus of my time for which I was not
compensated accept in a token kind of way.
I think they might havepaid me 500 for the year.
So that was a big investment.
Occasionally, oh, more recently, Ihave said to the person who's matching
(22:08):
me with a student, I am willing todo this, if the student is willing
to work with me and To collect datafor a single case experimental design
while we're doing the clinical work.
How about that?
Jason Luoma (22:22):
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (22:23):
And if it's not a single case experimental design, let's figure
out how to get some data collection.
See if we can get a paper out of thisproject because the UC Berkeley students,
they have an interest in getting a paper.
I have an interest in getting a paper,
Jason Luoma (22:35):
right?
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (22:36):
I just let the paper.
the person who sends me thestudents, send me a student who'd
be interested in doing some researchin the process of the clinical work.
That has been somewhat successful,but not hugely successful.
These graduate students, they getpulled in a million directions.
Last week at a meeting, she said, Oh,that case we were going to write up.
(22:58):
I should call you about it.
Has she called me?
No, it's okay.
Jason Luoma (23:04):
It's the same as getting dissertations published.
Yes.
Jackie Persons (23:07):
Yes.
Jason Luoma (23:07):
There's been a few mentions about money and I'm curious
how you think about money in this.
You've talked about hiring astats consultant at one point.
I know that you, At least in the pastvolunteered, most of this time in the
past was essentially volunteer time.
It wasn't compensated.
So I think you used to set asidea day, a week or something.
(23:30):
So could you talk abouthow you think about that?
Because.
The all this time you're spending onresearch, you could be spending seeing
clients and making money and theneven sometimes you're having to pay
money to say, go to a conferenceto present or hire a consultant.
So how do you think about, how doyou think about like how much you're
(23:51):
willing to volunteer, how much ofyour time you're willing to set aside
to these activities that don't makeany money directly, at least, and how
much of a budget do you put to this?
Jackie Persons (24:02):
Your question is a good one.
And I'll say a few things.
It's I guess one thought I have aboutwhat to say is just to acknowledge that
I am a privileged person in the sensethat When I finished graduate school,
I did not have a large student debt.
Jason Luoma (24:19):
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (24:20):
I have a husband who, number one, makes a good salary.
It doesn't make a huge dollarbecause he's a faculty person
himself here at UC Berkeley.
But but related, he's also anacademic, and so he's supportive
of my academic efforts.
So that is very important.
(24:42):
I have been known, on a coupleof occasions, I wrote and
got funded grant proposals.
A long time ago, I wrote an NIMHsmall grant that gave me about
40, 000 to pay for my research.
That was cool.
Jason Luoma (24:57):
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (24:58):
And Kelly Kerner and I wrote a small business
innovation research grant.
That funded our work to study teachingclinicians to do progress monitoring.
So that was fun, too, to havesome funding for the research.
Since that time, however, mostly, I, itdoesn't feel worthwhile to me to take
(25:21):
the time to write the research grant.
I just devote the time to the research.
And in general.
I just do the work because I lovedoing the work and I do not get
compensated for it, and as you pointout, in a certain way, it costs money.
Because Garrett and I are going topresent a piece of research we're doing
(25:44):
on deterioration at the conferencein Philadelphia, and that means we're
all, paying to go to Philadelphia.
I guess the way I think about it is Andthe closest it comes to money is the fact
that I am doing this, and I'm going toPhiladelphia presenting my work and such
and the other, it makes me a slightly bigdeal, which means I can set a higher fee.
Jason Luoma (26:07):
Huh.
Jackie Persons (26:08):
So I can collect a little bit for it in the sense that
I can set a higher fee, pay a little
Jason Luoma (26:14):
bit more per hour.
Jackie Persons (26:15):
And so my patients in a certain way are funding my
research through the fees they'repaying me, which are perhaps higher
because I have a research reputation.
Certainly here in the Bay area, there'sa lot of sophisticated consumers.
If you see somebody who's doing research,then that's the person they want to see.
And they're willing topay a little bit more.
(26:36):
more for it.
But fundamentally, Jason, theanswer is I do it because I enjoy
doing it and it costs me money.
But that's a joke in my house.
It's probably I'll never retire.
Why?
Because I don't really have a analternate life or other things I
enjoy doing that's not completelytrue, but it's pretty close to true.
Jason Luoma (26:58):
Hm
Jackie Persons (26:59):
have two grandchildren who are, Pretty special.
And my daughter lives right here.
But mostly I just I enjoy it.
It's rewarding.
And so that's the bestanswer I can give you.
Jason Luoma (27:11):
And what do you find motivating on a day to day basis to
stay involved in research and and blockout the time that's necessary to do it?
What aspects of the researchprocess are the ones that, and if.
Give you energy or feed you.
Jackie Persons (27:26):
The most exciting aspects to me are conceptualizing the questions.
Like Garrett and I, GarrettZeve and I were studying
deterioration and lack of progress.
I'm really interested in deteriorationand lack of progress, which
are understudied topics in theliterature and under attended to
(27:48):
topics in clinical work as well.
So certain ideas are exciting to me.
Research is horrible in manyrespects, it's so tedious and certain.
The parts that I enjoy arethinking about good questions.
I also set aside Fridays for myresearch and I have two Three, actually,
(28:12):
undergraduate research assistants.
Actually, they're post baccalaureatestudents who are wanting to get
ready to apply to graduate school.
I imagine you have some of themaround your operation, too.
I enjoy working with the young people.
I enjoy mentoring themand bringing them along.
I like to write up the paper.
(28:34):
I like whoever did the dataanalysis, which is usually not
me, to write the data analysis.
And then I like to write theintroduction and the discussion.
It's very important tome how it's written.
One of my favorite papers in theentire world is a paper written
by Daryl Bem about how to writean empirical journal article.
Did you ever read that, Jason?
Jason Luoma (28:56):
Yeah, I think it's been a long time, but it probably.
Jackie Persons (29:00):
Yeah, so that paper is 30 years old and it's a little bit out
of date in certain respects, but hesays you know you want to start with a
problem that if you explain the problemto your grandmother, she'd say oh yeah, I
want to know the answer to that problem.
I like the writing.
I like to do clear writing is importantto me and I enjoy it very much.
(29:21):
Those are the pieces I enjoy, thewriting and the conceptualizing and
the thinking about the questions.
And I don't know, for some reasonI, I love looking at, I don't
love looking at it, but I love theidea that I have this beautiful
database it's just thrilling to me.
And I'm working on creating anotherdatabase now, although, at the same time.
(29:42):
It is so annoying.
Jason Luoma (29:45):
You also seem to enjoy at least some level
of mentoring and supervising.
And I
Jackie Persons (29:50):
do.
Jason Luoma (29:51):
Yeah.
And you just mentioned that youhave some, that sounded like
volunteer RA's who are like postbac and training some experience.
I'm curious if you could talk more aboutthat because my experience with working
with folks who are in that spot has beenpretty mixed that We often will have to
(30:12):
go through quite a few people before wehave, before we find one person who's
reliable enough to, be from a productproductivity standpoint, at least be
able to contribute enough to even comeclose to balancing out the amount of time
we had to invest in them to try to getthem oriented and on board and things.
(30:37):
And so I'm curious how you go aboutselecting people screening people
onboarding and supporting those volunteersin such a way that that it's successful
enough that you keep continuing it.
Jackie Persons (30:52):
For the most part, I have been successful, although I would
say at the current moment, I have one.
That I'm having to ease her outfor exactly the reason you say the
amount of energy that I need to putin to get her work or contribution
up to half of what I needed.
It does not compute.
(31:14):
And so I had to let her know lastweek that this is not working
and I need to ease her out.
It was not pretty.
I have to say.
I think I must, I'mtrying to learn from this.
I think what I'm learning is I waited toolong to do, I should have done it earlier
because I don't know how long we've beengoing along, but she got the idea that
(31:37):
things were fine, which they weren't.
I didn't speak up, maybe becauseI thought it was ugly and now
of course it is ugly but maybethat's because I waited too long.
But you're asking me a better question,which is how I've been more successful.
I've had a lot of fantastic.
People.
I don't know, how do I screen them?
(31:57):
I ask them to send me their CV.
I like to pick someone, if possible,who has previously worked in
another lab in the university.
And been able to be successfulthere because my lab, so I have is
(32:19):
hesitate even to use the word lab,this work setting is unstructured.
It's not completely unstructured, butit's a little idiosyncratic and only
not everybody can be successful here.
So I want you to have experiencein an academic setting.
Often they're UC Berkeleystudents, so they're pretty bright.
(32:40):
I've only had to let go, Iwould say three out of 15 or 20.
And some of them have just been fantastic,detail oriented able to juggle lots
of different things, remember thisweek what we were doing last week.
What can I say?
What, how else do I screen them?
Jason Luoma (33:02):
How do you supervise them?
How often do you meet with them?
Is it in a group?
Is it one on one?
How often?
What are the kinds ofthings you talk about?
Perhaps some of it, it sounds likesome of it might be in the guidance
you provide or the support you provideperhaps and maybe we've been too lean
(33:22):
in terms of how much we put in andmaybe if we invested more, perhaps
it would be more likely to work out.
So I'm curious aboutthe supervision process.
Jackie Persons (33:33):
Yeah.
I'm happy to tell you about thatbut I think you're exactly right.
You want to be careful.
You're not investing morethan you're getting back.
The other thing I do when I'm screeningis I ask the student to, tell me what
is your proposed career path and howdoes working here with me fit into it?
I want to hear a coherent storyabout that, because I'm very aware
(33:56):
that you're volunteering your time.
I don't want to be justtaking advantage of you.
I want you to have an experience herethat's going to help you move forward.
So let me answer thequestion about Sabrina.
I have a google doc where Ipost a message for the RAs.
The RAs come on Friday.
They arrive at 10.
(34:16):
They leave at 4 plus or minus.
When you arrive at 10, read thismessage about For, and usually for
each one, I'll say a priority foryou today is could you do this?
I'm going to send you an emailwith some articles I would like
you to pull from the library.
I have data from these participants.
(34:38):
Would you go and pull it from thesoftware monitoring tool and enter it
into the database and then proof it?
So I leave them certain tasks to do.
We have a research meeting at 11.
Garrett is there.
The three RAs are there.
I'm there.
Garrett Zebe is like my number twohere in the research enterprise.
(34:59):
So I hear from the studentsabout what they're working on.
Do they have any questions?
We talk with, like Garrett is goingto come next time with his results
for the deterioration study, whichwe're presenting in Philadelphia.
One of my students wants to do a studyof the data from the intake packet in
(35:24):
which the patients report on history oftrauma, do those data predict outcome?
So she, I asked her did last timetell us where are you and what help
do you need to move that forward?
And then last week I met with each onefor 15 or 20 minutes while I had to tell
the one that she needed to that we weredone that took a little bit of time.
Jason Luoma (35:47):
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (35:48):
But usually I'm not meeting with them individually, usually,
I need them to be pretty good at, if Isend you this email saying please get me
these articles, I need you to understandthe format that I want the articles to be
named, how to get them into my articlesbox, I want them all entered into Zotero,
I want you to send me that this is whatI want, it's all written down, read that
(36:10):
please, and I need it to happen I don'tknow if I'm answering your question.
Jason Luoma (36:15):
Yeah, no, that's great.
So they're actually coming on site.
And so
Jackie Persons (36:20):
yes, they are.
Jason Luoma (36:21):
I guess part of screening is going to be, you need to come
here on Fridays during these times.
And so if they can't dedicateWhatever that was six hours a week.
Jackie Persons (36:31):
That's right.
Jason Luoma (36:31):
Basically every week, then they're not eligible.
And so they're having to makea commitment from the beginning
and they're also on site.
I like that, that's interesting becauseI could see how that would help.
They're there.
They're there with other people.
They're there with other RAswho are hanging out together
and supporting each other
Jackie Persons (36:51):
together.
Yeah.
Jason Luoma (36:52):
Yeah.
And you have a regular meetingwhere you meet with them.
And do you have a minimum commitmentthat they make at the beginning for
the number of weeks that they willparticipate or how do you hash out that
kind of sense of how long they're goingto volunteer for, at least initially?
Jackie Persons (37:11):
Oh my God.
I can't quite remember.
I think I do ask themto commit for a year.
But I can't remember, but yes, I amasking at least for a semester, UC
Berkeley is on the semester system.
So give me a commitment for a semester.
And it is a big commitment10 to four Fridays.
(37:32):
And onsite and.
When I moved into this new space in2015, my landlord and I collaborated
with building out the kitchen.
So it's a little bit extra big andit has a table for the research
assistants and a cabinet where eachone of them can have a little box
(37:52):
where they store some of their things.
So it's designed to support the research.
Jason Luoma (37:59):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah.
It's really interesting.
I think we, we've definitely takenquite a bit of a different tack
and more eased people in and oftenhaven't had people dedicated to
working on site and That's it.
Yeah, it's interesting.
I'm gonna put some more thoughtinto that because we have been
thinking about potentially startingto have research volunteers.
(38:21):
It's been a few years sincewe've had any research volunteers
because it was so uneven, but we'rethinking about doing it again.
So that's really interesting.
Curious.
If you can share any advice thatyou'd have for, say early career
psychologists to if you came from ascientist practitioner program, they
(38:42):
have an interest in research in andthey're in private practice, if that's
an individual practice or group practice.
And I wonder what kind of advice youhave about for them in terms of thinking
about how to conduct research in.
In, in, in that context,
Jackie Persons (39:00):
Certainly.
Number one.
You're going to want to integrate intoyour clinical work data collection, and
you're going to want to be collectingsymptom measures at a minimum.
And I'm really interested in developingor in finding more measures to monitor
psychological maintaining mechanisms.
(39:21):
David Clark was here last week teachingus about the treatment of social anxiety
disorder, and so I can see he's got acouple of measures of safety behaviors
that are commonly used by people whohave social anxiety disorder and beliefs.
If I can get those measures andsymptom measures and monitor them over
time, there's a paper right there.
(39:44):
Anyway, so in private practice,you're going to want to devote time
to getting a good mechanism for datacollection, which is a beautiful thing
to do in practice, because there aretons of data showing that measurement
based care leads to better outcomes.
Randomized trials show that.
So it's a great thing bothfor your clinical practice
(40:06):
and potential for research.
I would add a paragraph to yourtreatment agreement asking your patients
to give you consent for research.
And if you go to my website,you can snag the one I use,
which was reviewed by our IRB.
Those would be the two key elements.
The, maybe another key element,for me, it's been very important
(40:28):
to participate in the ABCT.
Or if you're not a cognitive behaviortherapist, some other scientific society
I go to the conference every year andI'm part of a group of practitioners,
but I'm also part of the largercommunity of evidence based practitioners
and scientists in clinical science.
(40:51):
And being part of that community ispart of what allows me to do research
in ways that I could spell out,but um, otherwise I'm too isolated.
I'm just sitting overin my clinical practice.
Research will not happen unless I'mpart of the larger community, so that's
another piece I would encourage people to.
(41:12):
And I saw something on the list nottoo long ago, people, a clinician
saying when I was a faculty person, mydepartment would pay for me to go to the
conference and now I'm a practitioner.
Nobody's paying for meto go to the conference.
I'm trying to figureout if I should do it.
I don't know.
My, my head just explodeswhen I hear that.
I don't know.
What can I say?
(41:33):
Going to the conference, you learn aton of things and it opens up your mind.
You're going to learn clinically,you see what research is going on,
and it allows you to participatein the larger community.
Unless you do that, you're notgoing to get any research done.
Jason Luoma (41:50):
Yeah, I agree.
That's a reallyunderappreciated component.
Of being able to conduct researchout in a non academic setting in
the academic setting, you have thatalmost inbuilt flow of information
about what's happening in the field.
You have the trainees or students you'reworking with, and they're telling you
about what they're reading and they'rewriting papers on the newest stuff and
(42:12):
you're having to just by grading them,you're learning about what's happening
and all kinds of brown bags happening and,You're out in private practice and unless
you're really mindful about it, you canbecome very siloed easily and isolated
from other practitioners and particularlyones who know more about what's happening.
(42:33):
That's on more on the cuttingedge and where the field's going.
And that's definitely something I'veseen with you that you have been.
A real leader, you were at one pointpresident of ABCT, the Association for
Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies,the largest, I think the largest
real association about like evidencebased therapies in the world.
(42:53):
And and being involved in yourprofessional community and staying
aware of what's happening isreally key to being relevant.
And it sounds like that also ispart of how you develop some of your
collaborators as well, in addition to whatyou talked about more locally at Berkeley.
So I think that's a great example.
Jackie Persons (43:15):
Part of how I develop collaboratives, but also I think
it's part of the rewards for me.
I'm going to go to the conference.
Garrett is going to presentthe paper we're working on.
I'm going to chair this symposium.
Rob DeRubis is going to be our discussant.
Adele Hayes.
is going to present some of herwork on sudden gains and losses.
(43:36):
I am truly part of theinternational scientific community.
These are my colleagues andmy professional friends.
And that's very important to me.
It's very rewarding to have.
Those colleagues and friendsbe part of the world I live in.
Jason Luoma (43:52):
And yeah, and you're a great example of how that's possible
that, someone who's in private practicedoesn't have to be isolated and they don't
have to be a consumer, like they can beproducing knowledge and influencing other
people through a variety of means andthat is, that definitely is a possibility
and I've seen lots of people do it.
(44:13):
I don't know if I've ever seen anybody.
Produce as much research asyou have in private practice?
But, I think you're a real, you're areal leader there and a good model for
other people to be able to think abouthow they might stretch themselves and
open themselves up to new avenues.
So I really thank you for that.
Jackie Persons (44:32):
I'll just say one thing, which is when I was early in my career,
very young, I decided, okay, Jackie,because I have a certain ambition.
And.
Okay, Jackie, the rule for youis every year you go to the
ABCT and every year you present.
That's my rule.
Every year I go to theconference, every year I present.
(44:54):
And Those years add up.
Jason Luoma (44:56):
Yeah.
And it's a competitive conference, right?
You don't, it's not necessarilyeasy to present every year.
Jackie Persons (45:02):
Oh, you can't believe some of the submissions
I've submitted that got turned down.
Jason Luoma (45:07):
Yeah.
So you have to really put some thoughtinto it to get to that, to get to that
where you can actually be You know,seen as relevant enough to be able
to present and so that's interesting.
I like that as a guideline.
Yeah.
Jackie Persons (45:19):
And some of my presentations are clinical
presentations, I get invited to do amaster clinician training workshop.
That's, I'll count that.
It counts.
And like my idea of heaven is, I'mgoing to the conference this year, I'm
chairing a symposium, and we have anempirical paper on an important topic.
And I've got big deal presenters,and then a couple of young people
(45:41):
too, presenting in the symposium.
That's my idea of heaven.
Jason Luoma (45:46):
That's fun.
All right.
Any last things you want to share orsay, things that you were thinking
about, but didn't get to say yetas we Get close to wrapping up.
Jackie Persons (45:57):
Thank you, Jason.
You did a good job ofasking good questions.
So I don't think there's anythingimportant that I would like to
say that I did not already say.
Thank you.
Jason Luoma (46:08):
Yeah, this has been really fantastic.
You you've been a colleague ofmine for quite a few years on
the IRB that we helped create.
And for folks listening, we,Jackie, myself and a number of
other people created an independentIRB nonprofit IRB called BHRC.
And a number of the papers thatJackie's written about how to conduct
(46:32):
research in a practice based settingsare linked from that website.
So anybody's interestedin that it's BHRCIRB.
org.
And it's a good place to go tolook at a number of the papers that
Jackie's written and other membershave written about conducting
research in practice based settings.
And so there are a lot, there are a lot ofmore, a lot more concrete resources there.
Jackie Persons (46:53):
Yeah, also on that website, Jason, is the text for material
you can add to your treatment agreementto ask your patients for research consent.
Posted on that website also.
Jason Luoma (47:05):
Exactly, yeah.
Thanks for all you've done.
I know you've given away lots ofknowledge over the years and um,
Support a lot of other people indeveloping the capacity to do research
and in practice based settings.
And here's another example of that.
So thanks for having you on the show.
Jackie Persons (47:22):
Thank you so much, Jason.
Very enjoyable to talk with you today.
Jason Luoma (47:26):
If you'd like to learn more about Dr.
Persons and her work, be sure tocheck out the links in the show notes,
including articles and resourceson research in private practice.
And if you found this episode helpful,don't forget to subscribe, leave a
review, and share it with anyone whomight be interested in these insights.
Also, if you know an amazing researcheryou'd love to see interviewed, so
(47:47):
that we can learn more about howthey do it, please let me know.
Thanks for tuning in to theResearch Matters Podcast,
and we'll see you next time.
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