September 29, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of “Run a Profitable Gym,” Chris Cooper presents hard numbers and explains why the gap between 3% and 5% churn can be the difference between stability and collapse.
He shares lessons from two decades of studying the science of retention, showing how most gyms don’t fail because they need more leads but because they can’t keep the people they already have.
Coop explains why contracts aren’t the answer, why chasing Facebook leads and six-week challenges can actually erode your community, and how gyms with 300+ members can get into trouble fast if they’re bleeding members.
Chris also breaks down the two key metrics every gym owner should track to boost retention and revenue—length of engagement (LEG) and average revenue per member (ARM)—and explains why retention is really just “sales over time.”
Tune in for Coop’s full retention playbook, then apply his tips to keep members longer, change more lives and build a profitable business that lasts.
Join Coop’s free retention workshop on Sept. 30 at noon Eastern in Gym Owners United (linked below).
Links
Gym Owners United
Book a Call
0:19 - When clients stay longer
7:10 - 3% versus 5% churn
11:29 - A better retention metric
13:11 - Onboarding and goal reviews
17:24 - Keeping people for 2 years
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris (00:00):
What's the difference between a 3% and a 5% churn
rate?
It could be the differencebetween the life and death of
your gym.
I'm Chris Cooper.
This is Run a Profitable Gym,and retention has been my
obsession now for two decades.
Years ago, when I met my firstmentor, Dennis, I was talking to
(00:22):
him about putting people oncontracts and how I would do
that and where I would get thecontracts and how I would
enforce it.
And he said, Chris, do you wantto spend your time helping
people or do you want to spendyour time suing people?
I thought about it and he said,well, you know, if you put
people on contracts, are youreally willing to enforce these
contracts?
Are you willing to take them tocourt and force them to pay you
(00:43):
when they don't want to be atyour gym?
And I said, well, no.
And he said, well, then let'sstop wasting time talking about
contracts and start studying thescience of keeping people
around.
Today, I'm going to tell youwhat I've learned on this 20
year journey, diving deep intothe science of retention.
I'm going to tell you whatmetrics you need to track and
(01:03):
what you can actually do toimprove retention at your gym
versus what's just BS andguessing.
Most gyms fail not because theydon't have enough leads or even
because they're not gettingenough clients in the door.
They fail because they can'tkeep those people.
Even a flagship gym with 300plus clients can fail without
(01:24):
retention.
I'm going to talk you throughthat math in a who's ever walked
through your door.
Even if you're only two yearsinto gym ownership, but
especially if like me, you're 20years in, we're talking about
dozens, hundreds, thousands ofpeople.
Now imagine if each one ofthose people had stayed six
(01:45):
months longer.
What difference would that havemade to your business, to your
family's income, and to theclient?
What happens if a client stayssix months longer?
Well, they adopt habits thathopefully they'll stick with
longer.
You can actually impact theirhealthspan and lifespan just by
keeping them six months longer.
And that's how important thisis.
(02:06):
Good retention is not just afeature of good business.
It is our duty as coaches tounderstand the science of
retention, what keeps peoplearound so that they can
meaningfully change their lives.
Now, years ago, I was aCrossFit gym and the most
popular CrossFit gyms, the onesthat got featured a lot in
CrossFit media, were these gymsthat had 300 members.
And there were some reallyamazing gyms out there that had
(02:28):
300 members, like greatcoaching.
Awesome.
You know, and you find outyears later that the owners
weren't making a great livingand the owners weren't even
really enjoying it because with300 members, if they were
losing, you know, 10 people amonth, they'd have to replace 10
people a month, 10 new membersevery single month just to break
even.
(02:48):
And in the early days, thisseemed like no big deal because
it was really, really easy.
People were attracted toCrossFit and you can apply this
same example to any franchisenow, right?
And metabolic row Fit BodyBootcamp, F45, like go down the
list.
You get this early wave ofclients and you think, wow, I'm
great at business.
And you don't really noticewhen these clients are flushing
(03:10):
out.
And I'm going to tell you in aminute, like why that's so
important to keep an eye on.
But also it's easy because newpeople are coming in and
replacing them until one daythat trickle of new leads slows.
And now you've got 10 peoplegoing out and nine people coming
in this month.
Well, not much to worry aboutyet, right?
And then you've got 10 peoplegoing out and seven people
(03:31):
coming in the next month.
And you think, well, maybe it'sa downtick.
You know, we'll wait anothermonth, see what happens.
And the next month you got 10people going out and now you've
got four coming in.
Oh, what do we do now?
Well, if it's 2018, you buy abunch of Facebook ads, you run
something like the new youchallenge or gym launch, and you
flood your gym with leads.
And in the short term thatworks, boom, you've got the most
(03:53):
members you've ever got, butthen suddenly 15 leave and then
20 leave.
And you've reached this tippingpoint where now the outflow is
impossible.
possible to keep up with.
And before you know it, in acouple of years, you're down to
an average size gym.
We're going to figure out whatwent wrong here.
I'm going to use science totell you how to reverse it and
make sure it doesn't happen toyou.
And I'm going to tell you howimportant this actually is to
(04:15):
your gym using numbers.
The first thing I want to do isget your mindset right.
Retention is sales over time.
That means that every singleday we have to sell every single
client on coming back tomorrow,on making the next appointment.
Showing up is not their defaultsetting until they've been with
(04:36):
us for about two years.
Every single day, they have tomake a conscious decision to go
to the gym or not.
And of course, a consciousdecision to go to your gym or to
try something different or not.
You have to resell the value ofthe program.
You can't count on yourprogramming or your coaches or
your clean bathrooms to do thatfor you.
I'm going to tell you how to dothat in a moment.
But I want you to have thatmindset first, that every single
(04:59):
time...
a client comes into your gym,you are selling them on showing
up the next time.
That's what retention means.
The other frame that I'm goingto give you right now is that
the average gym, averagecoaching gym, whether it's
CrossFit or whatever, bootcamp,whatever, has 122 members, not
300.
And the reason is not that theydon't get 300 members.
(05:20):
The reason is that they don'tkeep 300 members.
Nobody sustains that very well.
Sustainable growth creates lesspressure on your marketing to
keep up and more lifetime valuefrom each client that you get.
So let's break down the actualnumbers here of how important
this is, because I want to makesure we're on the same page with
like how critical it is tounderstand this stuff.
(05:41):
So first, let's talk aboutretention versus churn.
Churn is how many people leaveyour company in a given month.
Usually it's expressed as apercentage, okay?
And this comes from thesoftware world.
Nobody was talking about churnuntil the software world started
talking about it.
And that means it's become abuzzword.
A buzzword is like, oh, that'sa catchy phrase, but what does
(06:01):
it actually mean?
In the software industry, youwant to track churn as a
percentage because you've got10,000 or 100,000 clients and
you don't know their names.
You don't know anything aboutthem.
All you're looking at is like,what is our churn rate?
But in a gym, you have aone-on-one relationship with
everybody.
And so talking about a churnrate makes you overlook, hey,
(06:22):
Mary left.
Why did Mary leave?
Billy quit this month.
Where did Billy go?
Now, I'm really passionateabout this because the there's
some dangerous industry BS goingaround saying like, oh, there's
no value in pulling your churnbelow 3% and your target should
be 3% to 5% churn.
But there's a massivedifference between 3% to 5%
(06:43):
churn.
The average coaching gym has102 members, as I just said.
If you have 122 members andyour churn is 3%, you need to
have a net gain of four clientsper month to say the same.
A net gain, okay?
A positive growth.
Now, the average gym is gettingabout 70 clients a month and
losing four.
Okay.
Now check, you know, againstthe state of the industry data
(07:05):
that we produce and publishevery year without two brain,
nobody would even know thesenumbers.
At 3% churn with 122 members,you are treading water.
You're just staying the same.
You're not growing, but you'renot failing.
If you have lower than 3%churn, you're growing, you're
gaining clients.
But at 5% churn, you need a netgain of six new clients every
(07:26):
month.
And again, the for a net gainof three.
So at 5% churn, the average gymis shrinking by three clients
every single month.
The difference in three to 5%churn is not small.
It's the difference betweenkeeping and losing your
business.
Focusing only on your marketingand accepting a high churn
(07:47):
level is what leads to businesscollapse.
We turn a blind eye to keepingpeople and instead focus on the
new people.
Stop doing that.
And I'm going to tell you whatto do here.
But first, I want to just drivethis point home with an even
worse example.
So I said back in 2018,Facebook ads were cheap and
super effective.
And a lot of challenges startedto emerge.
(08:07):
First, there was New You, andthen there was Gym Launch, and
then there were a thousanddifferent copycats.
And every one of these workedon the same premise.
You would bring people in for asix-week challenge of some
kind, and you would sell that ata high value.
So, you know, double, triplewhat you normally sold your
membership for.
And you'd run them through thischallenge, and then at the end
of that challenge, you couldsell them on membership.
(08:28):
You know, and And new you andgym launch, they changed their
business model over time.
But basically, they had a peakand then they rapidly
disappeared.
Like, I don't even know wherenew you is anymore.
You know, it's a shame.
Here's what happened.
And this happened in my gym.
And I've got 100 other examplesof this happening.
The people coming in for thechallenge were numerous,
(08:50):
especially the first time youran the challenge.
So they'd come in, they do thesix week challenge, and then
they'd say, missionaccomplished.
Goodbye.
The retention rate for fromthese people after three months
was less than 10%.
Sure, some of them convertedinto long-term membership, but
after three months, they werealmost all gone.
Nine out of 10 had gone.
So what did you do?
Well, that worked.
(09:11):
I'll do it again.
The cash was great, right?
And some people built theirentire business model around
this.
It was wild.
So then you do it again andlike, okay, well, last time I
had 30 people.
This time I had 24.
Okay.
And two of them quit early.
Two of them defaulted.
Okay.
Well, that's okay.
We'll keep doing this.
So the third time you run it,you've got colder leads and you
You have to sell harder and nowpeople are defaulting and the
(09:32):
quality of the client gets worseand worse and the people who
sign up get lower and lower.
But here's the worst part.
With this tidal wave of newclients coming in and going out
and coming in and going out, youstart to wash your best clients
out with them.
It's like a tide running underthe pier at the beach.
Eventually, it starts toundermine the stones that the
(09:54):
pier are sitting on and thewhole pier starts to weaken and
collapse.
A lot of gyms have told me thisstory.
They would do these challenges.
30 people would come in.
They would quit.
And when they quit, two oftheir best members would go with
them because they'd say, hey,I'm not getting any attention
here anymore.
It's all about the new people.
The coaches are payingattention to the new people.
They don't know what they'redoing.
They're getting in my way.
I'm in a class.
(10:14):
I don't know anybody.
Where's the community?
And then the more thishappened, the more desperate the
gym owner would get, the morepeople they would bring in, and
the more existing OG stablebedrock clients that were
holding up the pier left withthem.
And so after After a few roundsof this, they found themselves
worse than ever.
The bedrock of their communitywas gone.
(10:34):
The people who held everybodyelse together had gone to
another gym.
Leads were harder.
Sales were harder.
They were getting defaults.
Rude people.
The ads weren't working.
They were doubling ad spend.
And this is because theyfocused so hard on marketing,
they didn't stop to think, am Ibringing the right people in?
And they didn't have systemsfor retention in place.
This is what can happen.
(10:55):
You can actually reach atipping point where so many
people are leaving thateverybody goes with them.
Now that's an extreme example,but what can actually happen in
your gym?
If you've got a 5% retentionrate and 120-ish members, you're
slowly bleeding out everymonth.
And every so often, one of yourbest people, clients, you know,
(11:18):
the people on whom your wholenation is built, they will go.
And when they go, the wholething gets weaker.
And you won't even see theflood happening as quickly, but
it will be happening at atrickle instead of at a flood.
So we do want to know our churnrate, but the more important
metric we want to track here islength of engagement, okay?
L-E-G, we call this leg.
Average revenue, remember, isarm.
(11:38):
Length of engagement is leg.
The two together build lifetimevalue of a client.
So you want to know how longthe average person stays,
because if they stay less thantwo years, you're not
meaningfully changing theirlife.
But you also want to know,like, all of your marketing, is
it worth it, right?
And the longer we keep aclient, the more value you're
getting from your marketing.
So if you got poor retentioneven if you're selling a high
(12:01):
ticket item and getting lots ofleads in your arm is really high
but your leg is tiny and soyeah you become a marketing
machine where that's all you doall right hopefully i've made my
point here about how importantthis is so how do you actually
keep people longer we're goingto go step by step here and
we're going to start by lookingat your leg okay you need to
know what your leg is how longthe average person stays but you
(12:24):
also need to know where theaverage person is likely to drop
off so if i'm looking at myleg.
I'm not just saying like, okay,yeah, 17 months, my retention's
doing okay.
But when people quit, they tendto quit at the three-month mark
or they tend to quit at theseven-month mark.
You want to know that, okay?
I'm going to give you pointsthroughout the first two years
(12:45):
of what to do depending on whereyour clients quit.
All right.
Now, if you don't have thisbroken out yet, you know, go to
your gym management software,say, how do I do this?
Kilo, you know, how do I dothis?
Wattify and let them tell you.
But you can also just go byyour knowledge.
Okay.
So think like, where are peoplequitting right now?
So first off, if they'requitting from the time they
(13:07):
signed up to the first twomonths, okay, here's what to do.
If they're dropping off in thefirst two months, that's a head
scratcher to you.
But the reality here is that wehaven't bridged the gap from
purchase to becoming part of thecommunity.
Okay.
You need stronger onboardingsystems.
You need an on-ramp program.
That's what this is for.
So that they don't have time tothink about buyer's remorse
(13:28):
because they're always thinkingabout your gym.
This means they've gotappointments for one-on-one
on-ramp with you.
They've got text messages fromyou in between.
Hey, Chris, I want you to dothis stretch.
Hey, how was that workoutyesterday?
They've got appointments tomeet you and try a group class
with you toward the end of theiron-ramp.
They've got an appointment withyou at the end of their on-ramp
to talk about their next beststeps.
(13:48):
Joey Coleman, in his book,Never Lose a Customer Again,
calls these the admit and affirmphases.
Admit, you're getting them intoyour gym.
You're teaching them yoursystem and the philosophy.
Affirm, you're not giving themtime to second guess their
decision and have buyer'sremorse.
If you look at the new year'sresolution effect, everybody
that joins a gym January 1st,right?
(14:09):
They drop off before the 90 daymark.
Usually it's like February 27this drop off day for commercial
gyms.
They've paid for a year inadvance, but that's when they
stopped coming on average.
And it's because they haven'ttransitioned properly in that
admit and affirm phase.
You haven't onboarded themproperly.
And so they're gone.
So if they're quitting withinthe first two months you need to
(14:29):
build and maybe a betteron-ramp if they're quitting
within the next three monthsfrom two to five months you need
to map out the client journeybetter you need to insert
frequent touch points that couldbe a phone call it could be
text it could be a video itcould be email you need to do an
earlier goal review you need tosit down with them how are how
(14:50):
are things going measure theirprogress update their
prescription and you need tointroduce them to at least three
other people in the gym notjust hey i'm the coach not just
hey i'm sat across the circle atthe 9 a.m.
group, but actually introducethem.
Give them a touch point.
Give them a buddy.
They need a training partner.
Most resolution clients, as Isaid earlier, quit before the
start of March because theydon't have those things.
(15:11):
They don't have consistentfollow-ups.
They don't have emails.
They don't have instructions.
Here's what to do.
Nothing is affirming theirchoice.
They haven't made connectionsin the gym.
That's a really big one.
That's why a lot of access gymsnow, 24-7 gyms or clubs, have a
personal training program.
And part of that personaltrainer's job is to introduce
(15:31):
you to one other member orattend a class with you so you
know one other person.
But you need to be deliberateabout this.
You can't just be passive andhope it happens.
If somebody quits between thefive and the nine month mark,
you need to do a goal reviewwith them and you need to ask
for referrals.
So this is really interestingbecause a lot of people wouldn't
(15:52):
assume that asking for areferral helps retention.
In fact, you might worry thatit's like infringing on your
relationship and it weakens it.
That's not the case.
Think about what happens whenyou find a new restaurant and
you love it and you take yourBFF to the restaurant.
You want them to love it,right?
So you're going out of yourway.
Hey, did you try that steaksauce?
You should order the fish.
I highly recommend the fish.
Like you want yourrecommendation to be a success.
(16:14):
You're bought in.
And so when somebody bringstheir friend into your gym, they
act the same way.
Hey, you got to come to the 6a.m.
class.
Oh, you got to meet coachAmanda.
Oh, hey, did you notice thesoaps in the bathroom?
Hey, by the way, didn't youlove that workout?
The programming here is sogood.
great.
This is exactly what shouldhappen, but in many gyms, it
doesn't because the ownerdoesn't ask for the referral.
(16:37):
We wait for it.
We're passive.
We hope it's going to come.
We do a free community workouton Saturday and that works once
and never works again.
And we do a bring a friend weekbecause we don't know any
better and it's not structuredand you just hope people show up
and you might promote it toyour community, but you're not
active.
Your clients are not marketers.
You need to take the initiativeand do the marketing with them.
(17:01):
Have them stand beside you andintroduce you to their friends
so that you can bring theirfriend in.
This is Joey Coleman's advocatephase, if you've read Never
Lose a Customer Again.
If they quit between the nineand 12 month mark, this is a
really critical point becausewhen people stay 12 months,
they're very likely to stay for16 months.
And if you can keep them pastthe 16th month, they're very
likely to stay till the end ofthe second year.
(17:23):
So drop-offs are highest in thefirst year, but if you can get
them over that one year mark,statistically, you're way more
likely to keep them for two fullyears.
The best way to do that is toput somebody in charge of
retention.
We call this person a clientsuccess manager.
Now, this is not a full-timerole.
This is maybe, depending on howmany clients you have, it's
like five hours a week.
It's not a highly paid rolebecause it's not a highly
(17:45):
skilled role.
All you have to have is anattitude about caring for
people.
And so the CSM gets a list ofyour clients and they get maybe
an attendance list for the lastweek.
And the first thing they do istext everybody who didn't show
up.
Thank you for joining us.
(18:14):
Send the birthday card, sendthe anniversary gifts, of
course, all that stuff.
But this stuff is reallyimportant.
And the reality is, I'm bad atit.
A busy gym owner is bad at it.
And the coaches are very bad atit.
You know, there used to be thisorganization called Mad Lab
that did business coaching inthe gym space.
And they really understood thevalue of retention.
(18:34):
And what they used to say isthat retention is everybody's
job.
But the problem, and you and Iknow this now, is that if
something is everybody's job,it's nobody's job.
Nobody does it, right?
You have to have somebody justlike a trained salesperson who
is trained in retention.
Now, that's not a full-timejob, neither sales nor
retention, but somebody has tobe well-trained on it, and it
(18:55):
has to be part of one person'sjob.
You need your best person onthis because it's that
important.
So hire a CSM if people areleaving between the nine and
12-month mark in your gym.
If they make it to a year, butthey don't make it to two years,
it's because they don't see afuture at the gym.
They don't have a goal thatthey're aiming for.
They don't know their next stepis.
(19:16):
They've hit some PRs and stuff,but like, man, are they going
to keep hitting PRs forever?
Why should they keep doingthis?
People give up when they runout of future.
And this is where belt systemslike level method or, you know,
just a black belt system inmartial arts, milestones and
gamification really play a hugerole.
Now, the science here wascreated and studied by George
(19:38):
Lowenstein at Carnegie Mellon,and it's called gap theory.
You can Google it.
What's important is not thereward for what they've done so
far.
It's showing them that the nextstep is really, really close.
The smaller you make that gapbetween where they are now and
their next step is what'simportant.
So giving people a t-shirt forattending 100 classes, that's
nice, but showing them that ifthey can attend 200 classes,
(20:01):
they will get somethingvaluable, that's way better.
The gap theory, it doesn'treally work if you're rewarding
what they've already donebecause they weren't trying to
do that.
They just kind of did it,right?
But if they're trying to dosomething, that will keep them
engaged.
So, for example, if somebody'sgot a deadlift that's 290 pounds
and they're dying to get a 300or a 315, they're not going to
(20:23):
miss deadlift day, right?
That's gap theory.
They're very, very close tothat goal.
It becomes irresistible tothem.
But if you give them a specialhat because they've just had
their first 200 deadlift andthey didn't know that that prize
exists and, you know, they'vegot other hats, it's not going
to do anything to keep themaround.
Rewarding past success does notinfluence retention.
It's only the promising futuresuccess that makes retention
(20:47):
sticky.
I'm going to say that again.
Rewarding past success does notimprove retention.
Having a short-term goal forfuture success is what makes it
sticky, okay?
So the badging and stuff,that's all cool.
It's cute, I guess, but like itdoesn't actually keep people
around longer.
What you actually need is somekind of ascension model.
(21:07):
And I'll use the black beltmethod from martial arts.
Level Method does this reallywell in functional fitness, by
the way.
And in Two Brain, we teachpeople how to to build a DIY
belt system too.
So when you start in jujitsu,let's say, you have a belt, it's
just pure white.
And after you show a basiclevel of progress and
(21:28):
familiarity, you get a littlestripe on that belt.
And soon you might have asecond stripe.
And then you get eventually ayellow belt.
And then you move up in thebelt system and each level
becomes more and more part oftheir identity and the next
level becomes irresistible.
That's what keeps people inmartial arts.
It's not that they come in andthey win a match or they get in
a fight and save their life.
(21:48):
It's always striving for thatnext level.
That's what keeps them in,right?
Again, it's not historicalaccomplishment that keeps people
around and engaged.
It's the promise of futureaccomplishment and how close
that seems to them.
So you want to build anascension model.
The reason this actually worksis the psychology of hope.
People feel hope when they havea clear picture in their brain
(22:12):
of a better future and they knowthe next step to take to get
there and they're willing totake that step.
Belt systems make this really,really easy.
Now, when somebody's brand new,they don't care that much
because everything'soverwhelming and also the wins
come really, really easy.
But after they've been in yourgym for a year, the belt system
can make a massive difference bygiving people a clear picture
of the next steps so they don'trun out of future and it tells
(22:34):
them what the next step is totake to get to that future.
Okay, so now let's talk abouthow do you do all this stuff.
You don't have to do it all atonce.
Start by building an on-ramp,then build out your 90-day
client journey journey, etc.
Then go deep into goal reviews,then hire a CSM, and then build
a belt system.
Don't try to do these all atonce.
Do them in that order.
The best thing that you can do,though, is track your leg and
(22:55):
look at the places where peopleare quitting.
Then refine what you'recurrently doing, add the systems
that you're not doing, and getbetter at the ones that you are.
Only after you've got the humansystems dialed in should you
look to automate with automatedmessages and reminders and
software like Kilo.
Remember that the science ofretention is the science of
(23:15):
positive habits and hopedelivered consistently.
It is not enough to have agreat product and think you're
going to keep people because therest of their life is telling
them to quit.
Their wife is saying, I don'twant to make two meals anymore.
Their kids are saying, whyaren't you with us at the beach,
dad?
Their boss is saying, how comeyou keep coming back to work
sweaty, right?
The cookies on the table aresaying, why don't you eat me?
(23:37):
We have to fight all of that.
And that means we have to bereally, really great at
retention.
It's probably one of thegreatest skills a can have.
It is a powerful tool.
Once we learn the science ofretention, it's so powerful that
sometimes people can actuallyuse it for evil, but we're going
to use these tools that I'vejust given you for good.
We're going to use them toactually help people.
We want to keep people for twoyears so that they establish the
(24:00):
habits that they will keep forlife.
If we don't keep them for twoyears, you know, the habits just
go away really quickly.
And anybody who tells you tofocus on marketing and ignore
retention or to accept a 5%monthly churn rate is not
helping you.
Your mission is to keep everyclient I'm Chris Cooper.
This is Run a Profitable Gym.
(24:33):
I sometimes do webinars on thisstuff at this free group called
GymOwnersUnited.com.
And when I do a webinar, I giveyou the worksheet for free and
then I coach you through it.
This is one of those times.
If you joinGymOwnersUnited.com, You'll see
when the next webinar is comingup.
And of course, at any time, youcan ask questions of me, my
team of mentors, or the 10,500other gym owners who are in that
(24:53):
group.
What's the difference between a 3% and a 5% churn
rate?
It could be the differencebetween the life and death of
your gym.
I'm Chris Cooper.
This is Run a Profitable Gym,and retention has been my
obsession now for two decades.
Years ago, when I met my firstmentor, Dennis, I was talking to
(00:22):
him about putting people oncontracts and how I would do
that and where I would get thecontracts and how I would
enforce it.
And he said, Chris, do you wantto spend your time helping
people or do you want to spendyour time suing people?
I thought about it and he said,well, you know, if you put
people on contracts, are youreally willing to enforce these
contracts?
Are you willing to take them tocourt and force them to pay you
(00:43):
when they don't want to be atyour gym?
And I said, well, no.
And he said, well, then let'sstop wasting time talking about
contracts and start studying thescience of keeping people
around.
Today, I'm going to tell youwhat I've learned on this 20
year journey, diving deep intothe science of retention.
I'm going to tell you whatmetrics you need to track and
(01:03):
what you can actually do toimprove retention at your gym
versus what's just BS andguessing.
Most gyms fail not because theydon't have enough leads or even
because they're not gettingenough clients in the door.
They fail because they can'tkeep those people.
Even a flagship gym with 300plus clients can fail without
(01:24):
retention.
I'm going to talk you throughthat math in a who's ever walked
through your door.
Even if you're only two yearsinto gym ownership, but
especially if like me, you're 20years in, we're talking about
dozens, hundreds, thousands ofpeople.
Now imagine if each one ofthose people had stayed six
(01:45):
months longer.
What difference would that havemade to your business, to your
family's income, and to theclient?
What happens if a client stayssix months longer?
Well, they adopt habits thathopefully they'll stick with
longer.
You can actually impact theirhealthspan and lifespan just by
keeping them six months longer.
And that's how important thisis.
(02:06):
Good retention is not just afeature of good business.
It is our duty as coaches tounderstand the science of
retention, what keeps peoplearound so that they can
meaningfully change their lives.
Now, years ago, I was aCrossFit gym and the most
popular CrossFit gyms, the onesthat got featured a lot in
CrossFit media, were these gymsthat had 300 members.
And there were some reallyamazing gyms out there that had
(02:28):
300 members, like greatcoaching.
Awesome.
You know, and you find outyears later that the owners
weren't making a great livingand the owners weren't even
really enjoying it because with300 members, if they were
losing, you know, 10 people amonth, they'd have to replace 10
people a month, 10 new membersevery single month just to break
even.
(02:48):
And in the early days, thisseemed like no big deal because
it was really, really easy.
People were attracted toCrossFit and you can apply this
same example to any franchisenow, right?
And metabolic row Fit BodyBootcamp, F45, like go down the
list.
You get this early wave ofclients and you think, wow, I'm
great at business.
And you don't really noticewhen these clients are flushing
(03:10):
out.
And I'm going to tell you in aminute, like why that's so
important to keep an eye on.
But also it's easy because newpeople are coming in and
replacing them until one daythat trickle of new leads slows.
And now you've got 10 peoplegoing out and nine people coming
in this month.
Well, not much to worry aboutyet, right?
And then you've got 10 peoplegoing out and seven people
(03:31):
coming in the next month.
And you think, well, maybe it'sa downtick.
You know, we'll wait anothermonth, see what happens.
And the next month you got 10people going out and now you've
got four coming in.
Oh, what do we do now?
Well, if it's 2018, you buy abunch of Facebook ads, you run
something like the new youchallenge or gym launch, and you
flood your gym with leads.
And in the short term thatworks, boom, you've got the most
(03:53):
members you've ever got, butthen suddenly 15 leave and then
20 leave.
And you've reached this tippingpoint where now the outflow is
impossible.
possible to keep up with.
And before you know it, in acouple of years, you're down to
an average size gym.
We're going to figure out whatwent wrong here.
I'm going to use science totell you how to reverse it and
make sure it doesn't happen toyou.
And I'm going to tell you howimportant this actually is to
(04:15):
your gym using numbers.
The first thing I want to do isget your mindset right.
Retention is sales over time.
That means that every singleday we have to sell every single
client on coming back tomorrow,on making the next appointment.
Showing up is not their defaultsetting until they've been with
(04:36):
us for about two years.
Every single day, they have tomake a conscious decision to go
to the gym or not.
And of course, a consciousdecision to go to your gym or to
try something different or not.
You have to resell the value ofthe program.
You can't count on yourprogramming or your coaches or
your clean bathrooms to do thatfor you.
I'm going to tell you how to dothat in a moment.
But I want you to have thatmindset first, that every single
(04:59):
time...
a client comes into your gym,you are selling them on showing
up the next time.
That's what retention means.
The other frame that I'm goingto give you right now is that
the average gym, averagecoaching gym, whether it's
CrossFit or whatever, bootcamp,whatever, has 122 members, not
300.
And the reason is not that theydon't get 300 members.
(05:20):
The reason is that they don'tkeep 300 members.
Nobody sustains that very well.
Sustainable growth creates lesspressure on your marketing to
keep up and more lifetime valuefrom each client that you get.
So let's break down the actualnumbers here of how important
this is, because I want to makesure we're on the same page with
like how critical it is tounderstand this stuff.
(05:41):
So first, let's talk aboutretention versus churn.
Churn is how many people leaveyour company in a given month.
Usually it's expressed as apercentage, okay?
And this comes from thesoftware world.
Nobody was talking about churnuntil the software world started
talking about it.
And that means it's become abuzzword.
A buzzword is like, oh, that'sa catchy phrase, but what does
(06:01):
it actually mean?
In the software industry, youwant to track churn as a
percentage because you've got10,000 or 100,000 clients and
you don't know their names.
You don't know anything aboutthem.
All you're looking at is like,what is our churn rate?
But in a gym, you have aone-on-one relationship with
everybody.
And so talking about a churnrate makes you overlook, hey,
(06:22):
Mary left.
Why did Mary leave?
Billy quit this month.
Where did Billy go?
Now, I'm really passionateabout this because the there's
some dangerous industry BS goingaround saying like, oh, there's
no value in pulling your churnbelow 3% and your target should
be 3% to 5% churn.
But there's a massivedifference between 3% to 5%
(06:43):
churn.
The average coaching gym has102 members, as I just said.
If you have 122 members andyour churn is 3%, you need to
have a net gain of four clientsper month to say the same.
A net gain, okay?
A positive growth.
Now, the average gym is gettingabout 70 clients a month and
losing four.
Okay.
Now check, you know, againstthe state of the industry data
(07:05):
that we produce and publishevery year without two brain,
nobody would even know thesenumbers.
At 3% churn with 122 members,you are treading water.
You're just staying the same.
You're not growing, but you'renot failing.
If you have lower than 3%churn, you're growing, you're
gaining clients.
But at 5% churn, you need a netgain of six new clients every
(07:26):
month.
And again, the for a net gainof three.
So at 5% churn, the average gymis shrinking by three clients
every single month.
The difference in three to 5%churn is not small.
It's the difference betweenkeeping and losing your
business.
Focusing only on your marketingand accepting a high churn
(07:47):
level is what leads to businesscollapse.
We turn a blind eye to keepingpeople and instead focus on the
new people.
Stop doing that.
And I'm going to tell you whatto do here.
But first, I want to just drivethis point home with an even
worse example.
So I said back in 2018,Facebook ads were cheap and
super effective.
And a lot of challenges startedto emerge.
(08:07):
First, there was New You, andthen there was Gym Launch, and
then there were a thousanddifferent copycats.
And every one of these workedon the same premise.
You would bring people in for asix-week challenge of some
kind, and you would sell that ata high value.
So, you know, double, triplewhat you normally sold your
membership for.
And you'd run them through thischallenge, and then at the end
of that challenge, you couldsell them on membership.
(08:28):
You know, and And new you andgym launch, they changed their
business model over time.
But basically, they had a peakand then they rapidly
disappeared.
Like, I don't even know wherenew you is anymore.
You know, it's a shame.
Here's what happened.
And this happened in my gym.
And I've got 100 other examplesof this happening.
The people coming in for thechallenge were numerous,
(08:50):
especially the first time youran the challenge.
So they'd come in, they do thesix week challenge, and then
they'd say, missionaccomplished.
Goodbye.
The retention rate for fromthese people after three months
was less than 10%.
Sure, some of them convertedinto long-term membership, but
after three months, they werealmost all gone.
Nine out of 10 had gone.
So what did you do?
Well, that worked.
(09:11):
I'll do it again.
The cash was great, right?
And some people built theirentire business model around
this.
It was wild.
So then you do it again andlike, okay, well, last time I
had 30 people.
This time I had 24.
Okay.
And two of them quit early.
Two of them defaulted.
Okay.
Well, that's okay.
We'll keep doing this.
So the third time you run it,you've got colder leads and you
You have to sell harder and nowpeople are defaulting and the
(09:32):
quality of the client gets worseand worse and the people who
sign up get lower and lower.
But here's the worst part.
With this tidal wave of newclients coming in and going out
and coming in and going out, youstart to wash your best clients
out with them.
It's like a tide running underthe pier at the beach.
Eventually, it starts toundermine the stones that the
(09:54):
pier are sitting on and thewhole pier starts to weaken and
collapse.
A lot of gyms have told me thisstory.
They would do these challenges.
30 people would come in.
They would quit.
And when they quit, two oftheir best members would go with
them because they'd say, hey,I'm not getting any attention
here anymore.
It's all about the new people.
The coaches are payingattention to the new people.
They don't know what they'redoing.
They're getting in my way.
I'm in a class.
(10:14):
I don't know anybody.
Where's the community?
And then the more thishappened, the more desperate the
gym owner would get, the morepeople they would bring in, and
the more existing OG stablebedrock clients that were
holding up the pier left withthem.
And so after After a few roundsof this, they found themselves
worse than ever.
The bedrock of their communitywas gone.
(10:34):
The people who held everybodyelse together had gone to
another gym.
Leads were harder.
Sales were harder.
They were getting defaults.
Rude people.
The ads weren't working.
They were doubling ad spend.
And this is because theyfocused so hard on marketing,
they didn't stop to think, am Ibringing the right people in?
And they didn't have systemsfor retention in place.
This is what can happen.
(10:55):
You can actually reach atipping point where so many
people are leaving thateverybody goes with them.
Now that's an extreme example,but what can actually happen in
your gym?
If you've got a 5% retentionrate and 120-ish members, you're
slowly bleeding out everymonth.
And every so often, one of yourbest people, clients, you know,
(11:18):
the people on whom your wholenation is built, they will go.
And when they go, the wholething gets weaker.
And you won't even see theflood happening as quickly, but
it will be happening at atrickle instead of at a flood.
So we do want to know our churnrate, but the more important
metric we want to track here islength of engagement, okay?
L-E-G, we call this leg.
Average revenue, remember, isarm.
(11:38):
Length of engagement is leg.
The two together build lifetimevalue of a client.
So you want to know how longthe average person stays,
because if they stay less thantwo years, you're not
meaningfully changing theirlife.
But you also want to know,like, all of your marketing, is
it worth it, right?
And the longer we keep aclient, the more value you're
getting from your marketing.
So if you got poor retentioneven if you're selling a high
(12:01):
ticket item and getting lots ofleads in your arm is really high
but your leg is tiny and soyeah you become a marketing
machine where that's all you doall right hopefully i've made my
point here about how importantthis is so how do you actually
keep people longer we're goingto go step by step here and
we're going to start by lookingat your leg okay you need to
know what your leg is how longthe average person stays but you
(12:24):
also need to know where theaverage person is likely to drop
off so if i'm looking at myleg.
I'm not just saying like, okay,yeah, 17 months, my retention's
doing okay.
But when people quit, they tendto quit at the three-month mark
or they tend to quit at theseven-month mark.
You want to know that, okay?
I'm going to give you pointsthroughout the first two years
(12:45):
of what to do depending on whereyour clients quit.
All right.
Now, if you don't have thisbroken out yet, you know, go to
your gym management software,say, how do I do this?
Kilo, you know, how do I dothis?
Wattify and let them tell you.
But you can also just go byyour knowledge.
Okay.
So think like, where are peoplequitting right now?
So first off, if they'requitting from the time they
(13:07):
signed up to the first twomonths, okay, here's what to do.
If they're dropping off in thefirst two months, that's a head
scratcher to you.
But the reality here is that wehaven't bridged the gap from
purchase to becoming part of thecommunity.
Okay.
You need stronger onboardingsystems.
You need an on-ramp program.
That's what this is for.
So that they don't have time tothink about buyer's remorse
(13:28):
because they're always thinkingabout your gym.
This means they've gotappointments for one-on-one
on-ramp with you.
They've got text messages fromyou in between.
Hey, Chris, I want you to dothis stretch.
Hey, how was that workoutyesterday?
They've got appointments tomeet you and try a group class
with you toward the end of theiron-ramp.
They've got an appointment withyou at the end of their on-ramp
to talk about their next beststeps.
(13:48):
Joey Coleman, in his book,Never Lose a Customer Again,
calls these the admit and affirmphases.
Admit, you're getting them intoyour gym.
You're teaching them yoursystem and the philosophy.
Affirm, you're not giving themtime to second guess their
decision and have buyer'sremorse.
If you look at the new year'sresolution effect, everybody
that joins a gym January 1st,right?
(14:09):
They drop off before the 90 daymark.
Usually it's like February 27this drop off day for commercial
gyms.
They've paid for a year inadvance, but that's when they
stopped coming on average.
And it's because they haven'ttransitioned properly in that
admit and affirm phase.
You haven't onboarded themproperly.
And so they're gone.
So if they're quitting withinthe first two months you need to
(14:29):
build and maybe a betteron-ramp if they're quitting
within the next three monthsfrom two to five months you need
to map out the client journeybetter you need to insert
frequent touch points that couldbe a phone call it could be
text it could be a video itcould be email you need to do an
earlier goal review you need tosit down with them how are how
(14:50):
are things going measure theirprogress update their
prescription and you need tointroduce them to at least three
other people in the gym notjust hey i'm the coach not just
hey i'm sat across the circle atthe 9 a.m.
group, but actually introducethem.
Give them a touch point.
Give them a buddy.
They need a training partner.
Most resolution clients, as Isaid earlier, quit before the
start of March because theydon't have those things.
(15:11):
They don't have consistentfollow-ups.
They don't have emails.
They don't have instructions.
Here's what to do.
Nothing is affirming theirchoice.
They haven't made connectionsin the gym.
That's a really big one.
That's why a lot of access gymsnow, 24-7 gyms or clubs, have a
personal training program.
And part of that personaltrainer's job is to introduce
(15:31):
you to one other member orattend a class with you so you
know one other person.
But you need to be deliberateabout this.
You can't just be passive andhope it happens.
If somebody quits between thefive and the nine month mark,
you need to do a goal reviewwith them and you need to ask
for referrals.
So this is really interestingbecause a lot of people wouldn't
(15:52):
assume that asking for areferral helps retention.
In fact, you might worry thatit's like infringing on your
relationship and it weakens it.
That's not the case.
Think about what happens whenyou find a new restaurant and
you love it and you take yourBFF to the restaurant.
You want them to love it,right?
So you're going out of yourway.
Hey, did you try that steaksauce?
You should order the fish.
I highly recommend the fish.
Like you want yourrecommendation to be a success.
(16:14):
You're bought in.
And so when somebody bringstheir friend into your gym, they
act the same way.
Hey, you got to come to the 6a.m.
class.
Oh, you got to meet coachAmanda.
Oh, hey, did you notice thesoaps in the bathroom?
Hey, by the way, didn't youlove that workout?
The programming here is sogood.
great.
This is exactly what shouldhappen, but in many gyms, it
doesn't because the ownerdoesn't ask for the referral.
(16:37):
We wait for it.
We're passive.
We hope it's going to come.
We do a free community workouton Saturday and that works once
and never works again.
And we do a bring a friend weekbecause we don't know any
better and it's not structuredand you just hope people show up
and you might promote it toyour community, but you're not
active.
Your clients are not marketers.
You need to take the initiativeand do the marketing with them.
(17:01):
Have them stand beside you andintroduce you to their friends
so that you can bring theirfriend in.
This is Joey Coleman's advocatephase, if you've read Never
Lose a Customer Again.
If they quit between the nineand 12 month mark, this is a
really critical point becausewhen people stay 12 months,
they're very likely to stay for16 months.
And if you can keep them pastthe 16th month, they're very
likely to stay till the end ofthe second year.
(17:23):
So drop-offs are highest in thefirst year, but if you can get
them over that one year mark,statistically, you're way more
likely to keep them for two fullyears.
The best way to do that is toput somebody in charge of
retention.
We call this person a clientsuccess manager.
Now, this is not a full-timerole.
This is maybe, depending on howmany clients you have, it's
like five hours a week.
It's not a highly paid rolebecause it's not a highly
(17:45):
skilled role.
All you have to have is anattitude about caring for
people.
And so the CSM gets a list ofyour clients and they get maybe
an attendance list for the lastweek.
And the first thing they do istext everybody who didn't show
up.
Thank you for joining us.
(18:14):
Send the birthday card, sendthe anniversary gifts, of
course, all that stuff.
But this stuff is reallyimportant.
And the reality is, I'm bad atit.
A busy gym owner is bad at it.
And the coaches are very bad atit.
You know, there used to be thisorganization called Mad Lab
that did business coaching inthe gym space.
And they really understood thevalue of retention.
(18:34):
And what they used to say isthat retention is everybody's
job.
But the problem, and you and Iknow this now, is that if
something is everybody's job,it's nobody's job.
Nobody does it, right?
You have to have somebody justlike a trained salesperson who
is trained in retention.
Now, that's not a full-timejob, neither sales nor
retention, but somebody has tobe well-trained on it, and it
(18:55):
has to be part of one person'sjob.
You need your best person onthis because it's that
important.
So hire a CSM if people areleaving between the nine and
12-month mark in your gym.
If they make it to a year, butthey don't make it to two years,
it's because they don't see afuture at the gym.
They don't have a goal thatthey're aiming for.
They don't know their next stepis.
(19:16):
They've hit some PRs and stuff,but like, man, are they going
to keep hitting PRs forever?
Why should they keep doingthis?
People give up when they runout of future.
And this is where belt systemslike level method or, you know,
just a black belt system inmartial arts, milestones and
gamification really play a hugerole.
Now, the science here wascreated and studied by George
(19:38):
Lowenstein at Carnegie Mellon,and it's called gap theory.
You can Google it.
What's important is not thereward for what they've done so
far.
It's showing them that the nextstep is really, really close.
The smaller you make that gapbetween where they are now and
their next step is what'simportant.
So giving people a t-shirt forattending 100 classes, that's
nice, but showing them that ifthey can attend 200 classes,
(20:01):
they will get somethingvaluable, that's way better.
The gap theory, it doesn'treally work if you're rewarding
what they've already donebecause they weren't trying to
do that.
They just kind of did it,right?
But if they're trying to dosomething, that will keep them
engaged.
So, for example, if somebody'sgot a deadlift that's 290 pounds
and they're dying to get a 300or a 315, they're not going to
(20:23):
miss deadlift day, right?
That's gap theory.
They're very, very close tothat goal.
It becomes irresistible tothem.
But if you give them a specialhat because they've just had
their first 200 deadlift andthey didn't know that that prize
exists and, you know, they'vegot other hats, it's not going
to do anything to keep themaround.
Rewarding past success does notinfluence retention.
It's only the promising futuresuccess that makes retention
(20:47):
sticky.
I'm going to say that again.
Rewarding past success does notimprove retention.
Having a short-term goal forfuture success is what makes it
sticky, okay?
So the badging and stuff,that's all cool.
It's cute, I guess, but like itdoesn't actually keep people
around longer.
What you actually need is somekind of ascension model.
(21:07):
And I'll use the black beltmethod from martial arts.
Level Method does this reallywell in functional fitness, by
the way.
And in Two Brain, we teachpeople how to to build a DIY
belt system too.
So when you start in jujitsu,let's say, you have a belt, it's
just pure white.
And after you show a basiclevel of progress and
(21:28):
familiarity, you get a littlestripe on that belt.
And soon you might have asecond stripe.
And then you get eventually ayellow belt.
And then you move up in thebelt system and each level
becomes more and more part oftheir identity and the next
level becomes irresistible.
That's what keeps people inmartial arts.
It's not that they come in andthey win a match or they get in
a fight and save their life.
(21:48):
It's always striving for thatnext level.
That's what keeps them in,right?
Again, it's not historicalaccomplishment that keeps people
around and engaged.
It's the promise of futureaccomplishment and how close
that seems to them.
So you want to build anascension model.
The reason this actually worksis the psychology of hope.
People feel hope when they havea clear picture in their brain
(22:12):
of a better future and they knowthe next step to take to get
there and they're willing totake that step.
Belt systems make this really,really easy.
Now, when somebody's brand new,they don't care that much
because everything'soverwhelming and also the wins
come really, really easy.
But after they've been in yourgym for a year, the belt system
can make a massive difference bygiving people a clear picture
of the next steps so they don'trun out of future and it tells
(22:34):
them what the next step is totake to get to that future.
Okay, so now let's talk abouthow do you do all this stuff.
You don't have to do it all atonce.
Start by building an on-ramp,then build out your 90-day
client journey journey, etc.
Then go deep into goal reviews,then hire a CSM, and then build
a belt system.
Don't try to do these all atonce.
Do them in that order.
The best thing that you can do,though, is track your leg and
(22:55):
look at the places where peopleare quitting.
Then refine what you'recurrently doing, add the systems
that you're not doing, and getbetter at the ones that you are.
Only after you've got the humansystems dialed in should you
look to automate with automatedmessages and reminders and
software like Kilo.
Remember that the science ofretention is the science of
(23:15):
positive habits and hopedelivered consistently.
It is not enough to have agreat product and think you're
going to keep people because therest of their life is telling
them to quit.
Their wife is saying, I don'twant to make two meals anymore.
Their kids are saying, whyaren't you with us at the beach,
dad?
Their boss is saying, how comeyou keep coming back to work
sweaty, right?
The cookies on the table aresaying, why don't you eat me?
(23:37):
We have to fight all of that.
And that means we have to bereally, really great at
retention.
It's probably one of thegreatest skills a can have.
It is a powerful tool.
Once we learn the science ofretention, it's so powerful that
sometimes people can actuallyuse it for evil, but we're going
to use these tools that I'vejust given you for good.
We're going to use them toactually help people.
We want to keep people for twoyears so that they establish the
(24:00):
habits that they will keep forlife.
If we don't keep them for twoyears, you know, the habits just
go away really quickly.
And anybody who tells you tofocus on marketing and ignore
retention or to accept a 5%monthly churn rate is not
helping you.
Your mission is to keep everyclient I'm Chris Cooper.
This is Run a Profitable Gym.
(24:33):
I sometimes do webinars on thisstuff at this free group called
GymOwnersUnited.com.
And when I do a webinar, I giveyou the worksheet for free and
then I coach you through it.
This is one of those times.
If you joinGymOwnersUnited.com, You'll see
when the next webinar is comingup.
And of course, at any time, youcan ask questions of me, my
team of mentors, or the 10,500other gym owners who are in that
(24:53):
group.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.