David Platt Revisits Mark Driscoll Confrontation 14 Years Later (Elephant Room)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And I like actually heard the voice of God unquestionably.
It was His voice in Psalm 130 and Micah 5-6 and seven.
I heard His voice and I'm speaking to him.
And to me, this is something I kind of felt because conflicted
by. I'd love to hear thoughts on
this is that the first time I ever saw you on anything was on
the elephant room. And then there's poverty

(00:21):
theology that if you really lovethe gospel, you're going to
sleep in a tent. Money is extremely dangerous.
Money is dangerous and damning. At the same time, it does seem
like that word has been hijackedat times to mean not, hey, you
don't speak up for those who can't speak of themselves.
Let's create laws that that thatcreate a more just system.

(00:41):
But like anyone who identifies as oppressed as oppressed and
therefore has to be coddled, right?
And it's like that. It is that over correction.
Yeah, people coming up to me just personally, like just
railing at me personally. And like to your face?
Oh yeah. The first time I ever saw you on
anything after the success of Radical, and that being a

(01:03):
massive moment, was on The Elephant Room.
You remember that? Oh yeah, yes.
I like every once in a while, it's funny, like every six to
eight months the Elephant room comes up in a conversation
somewhere like that that that still is with me.

(01:24):
Yeah, I loved it. You did.
I did. I did.
I thought it was. I thought they were like good
conversations to have in terms of what was going on.
They, especially that conversation you remember that
session at. All like the one with James and
Mark on poverty gospel versus prosperity gospel.
Yes. Oh yeah, I definitely remember
the. And you were like the young guy
on the buck. Dude, I was, yeah, I was super

(01:46):
green. I mean, I'm trying to remember
what year that was. 2011 OK 20112007 It was right after the
explosion of your book Radical and that.
Was a big deal, yeah. And so, yeah, I went back and
watched it. I loved it.
I loved it. It's.
Funny man. Some something that somebody
brought it up and one of my sonswas nearby and he's like dad,
what's that? This is my now 17 year old son.

(02:07):
And I was trying to explain it to him.
He was like, can we listen to it?
And so I was taking him to, I don't know, basketball practice
or school or something like that.
So we started listening to it and yeah, I hadn't.
I hadn't listened to it in years.
What'd you, what'd you think? Like the dynamic, the the
conversation, people can go lookit up was more or less the
backdooring of poverty as a virtue within the broader

(02:30):
context of the evangelical church, I guess, if you will.
And you were kind of taking the position of like, we, we can't
be possessed by our possessions.And they were saying, Hey,
pastors need to be paid more. There's this weird virtue of
poverty. And it's not folks who have sold
millions of books and are crushing it.
It's for the 20 year old dude living with his mom that's not
building anything. And, and, and so anyway, what do
you, what do you think of all that in hindsight?

(02:52):
The the challenge with that conversation is it was kind of
billed as let's let's go at eachother and and in a way that
would like appeal like be entertaining for you, which I
don't, I don't think that's the most helpful way to go about
like good biblical conversationsthat will lead to Christ
likeness. So I think just the format while

(03:15):
entertaining, what is not most helpful because it was like, how
do we and and and you think about it like even right now as
I'm processing it like it because that was yeah, that was
2011. That was before a lot of what
we've seen over the last 15 years when it comes to
polarization and what conversations on social media or
whatever can be that can just, yeah, can polarize.

(03:37):
And it was like a foretaste of that in a way that I don't think
was altogether helpful or healthy.
So I mean, I everything I'd saidduring that conversation, I
still believe it was like, but how do you have a conversations
about a conversation about how we approach possessions in this
culture in a helpful, productiveway that's not like for the

(03:58):
purpose of entertainment? Totally, totally.
I think it's like WWE for pastors.
Like that was the vibe of it, which which from entertainment
standpoint it's great. Yeah.
So you have people in the background like, yeah, like,
yeah, buzzing in with a thumbs up or a thumbs down, like Boo, I
don't like that. I was like, well, I, yeah,
without going in all the details, I did not know what I

(04:20):
was getting into so. Do you think it was necessary
though, like to have these I guess more contentious
conversations of people from different theological camps?
Yes, I love, I love conversations like that.
It's like, how do we have those conversations?
It's not like just looking for the next sound bite or looking
to win an argument or looking to, you know, show you're right

(04:43):
or like thumbs up, thumbs down, like no, like where do we agree?
Where do we disagree? How can we have good
conversations like that and still walk out with like our
arms around one another's brothers and sisters in Christ?
I love that. It's just how do you do that?
And our culture is really challenging.
It is, it is. And I think especially now, like

(05:04):
Fast forward 15 years, all the later, it's even more so now.
And so, yeah, that was a very interesting time from for me
'cause I was, I, I came to faithin the early 2000s.
At that point, my church was going through a super heavy
reform phase and it was cool to see folks that I looked up to
sit down and talk to people thatthey may not may not agree

(05:27):
theologically on. And so I thought that was that
was great. But like coming back to it as
like a, when did I first discovered it?
Like I was let me go back and look at it real quick and I
looked back and I was like, wow.And it was definitely as a
component of like almost little bro in you in that conversation
where you're one of the younger guys there, right?
So you had to have been, what, in your early 30s at that point,

(05:48):
all those guys were late 30s, early 40s, maybe 50s.
Did that. Did you ever get that sense from
them? Like kind of like little bro ING
and like they came in with like guns blazing specific talking
points. And you're just like, dude, I'm
just saying like we should be more generous with the poor.
I It definitely felt like that. I think part of the challenge
too was that was some of my first interaction, like

(06:12):
relationally with some of those guys.
And so it's not like there were this deep well of relationship
to build on with those conversations, which there's not
always that, I mean, yeah, you have all kinds of conversations
with people you don't have a deep well of relationship with.
But to have a public conversation like that over
potentially contentious issues and not have any kind of, yeah,

(06:34):
a depth of relationship there, Ithink makes it more challenging.
And so, yeah, I again, I, I, I didn't realize what I was
getting into. And so it was all of a sudden it
was like, whoa, what's what's happening here?
And yeah, it's like just trying to like, I think give, I think a
needed corrective. We live in a materialistic
culture. I, I need this.
I need what God's word says about possessions of my own

(06:57):
heart. Like I think we all need this
so. Yeah, even the concept of what
was it the the, the goldfish? And you guys were like, hey, we
did this thing and we wanted to sacrifices a year for a church.
And so everyone cut back, including the the children's
ministry. So we said we're gonna go
without snacks for the kids. And they were like, how dare
you, Mark, Mark Driscoll goes. I would have I would be in

(07:20):
prison ministry from the inside if you took away clothes, fish
from my kids. So it was like, oh, man.
All right. So let me give you a little
context behind why. And we didn't take away all the
snacks. We weren't like starving our
kids and still just ministry. So yes.
And then it turns into this. Yeah.
And but then it's like, what arewe doing here?
Like, which I, I, I'm fine to have light, light hearted

(07:40):
conversation. At the same time, if we're going
to talk about, like, actual series issues, like, well, just
the art of like, actually being understood and come to those
conversations like, well, I hope, like, humbly to learn,
like, not to just prove a point,yeah.
Would you say any of your views on that topic particularly has

(08:01):
evolved? And I'm only asking this, I'll
give you a copy if if you care to read it.
But I'm, I have a book coming out on godly ambition.
Yeah. And it, it, it's, it's am both
to me, it's not either or like it's am both.
It's like, hey, build something when you're younger so that when
you're older, your wife can stayhome and raise the kids.
If that's what you choose to do,right?
Develop a, a, a strong skill setthat's valuable, right?

(08:25):
And use it to build the Kingdom and use it to push the gospel
forward through radical generosity.
And we should not be possessed by our possessions.
We should be generous. We should not be owned by money
and the love of money and the pursuit of money.
It should be about impact. So I think it's like AII just
hold like A and both position. But I, I will say to their point

(08:46):
there, there is a glorification of poverty as a virtue by the
people who don't need to have that virtue, meaning young men,
18 to 30, no useful skills or very little useful skills, kind
of floating. And by golly, I'll live in a
trailer park for the gospel. And it's like, bro, you're gonna
have a wife someday and she's not gonna wanna live in the

(09:08):
trailer park for the gospel. So would you say any of that's
evolved or would you say it backthen?
I had to and both view of these things.
I, I think back then I had a like we had walked through, we
do this thing called secret church, but it's like a six hour
in depth study of we've done books, the Bible or we've done
like theological issues like that.
So we did one on the gospel possessions and prosperity.

(09:28):
And it was like walk through 125truths.
I think that's what it was. Or text in Scripture, like cram
it in in six hours. And just like, let's get a a
holistic biblical theology of possessions that I think does
yeah. All the things you just
mentioned like beware the love of money is the root of all
kinds of evil and will lead you to total destruction.

(09:49):
First Timothy chapter 6. Give generously.
First Timothy chapter 6. And at the same time, like God
gives good gifts for the take. If you don't take care of your
family, like you're worse than an unbeliever.
Like, so we got to hold all these texts intention.
And so I think now I, I hope I've like grown in maturity in

(10:09):
all kinds of ways since I was 20something years old or early
30s. But I think that theology was
there, which again, that kind ofconversation, the way it was
like pitting. Well, let's talk about this text
first, this text. It's like, OK, but let's let's
realize they they still go together in the end, like
there's a way to care for your family.
Love the poor steward resources well to the glory of God, and

(10:33):
enjoy the good gifts he. Gives Amen so.
How do you do all that and and do you think godly ambition like
that's yes, there's a way to be God glorifying with ambition.
There's a way to be self indulgent with ambition and
possessions play into really both those and so yeah, there,
but we get we need to step into those tensions.
Yeah, I love that. I love that First Timothy 5

(10:56):
flows into First Timothy 6. So First Timothy five is talking
about the widows and the older widows and and, and the church
needing to care for those. But if they're able to get
remarried, let them get remarried.
But if they have family, take care of your family, right?
And so it's almost this like multi generational prescription,
multi generational prescription of how to live, which is not

(11:16):
prevalent in American culture. You send grandma off to the to
the nursing home. But Paul is saying no, no, no,
no, no, no, take take care of those widows that have family.
They need to stay with their family and the family needs to
take care of them. And then the widows that are
actually destitute, those are the widows that the church
should take care of. And then there's that punchline
of and he who does not provide for the needs of his family is
worse than a non believer. And it's not the faith, right?

(11:37):
Interestingly enough, a little bit lower than that.
And that's name chapter. I don't know the exact verse you
you probably would remember better than I do.
He talks about how a elder in the church is worthy of a double
portion, which is I mean, I've seen even more conservative
leaning Calvary Chapel esque pastors like Mike Winger who
said yeah, no, that's about finances.
I guess that's not about, that'sabout money, Like pastors should

(12:00):
get paid more, you know, they should be worthy of double
honor. And then it goes into the, you
know, for the love of money is the root of all evil in, in
First Timothy 6. So I've always found those two
chapters interesting, you know, 'cause whenever, whenever I'm
talking anything related to ambition, financial literacy,
building skills, anything related to that, people will
always quote First Timothy 6th to me.

(12:20):
And I'm like, yeah, but you got to go back and read the reading
chapter. Yeah, that's.
Really good man and and but that's where I think yeah,
that's what I love about God's word.
Like those are back-to-back right.
And that's the same spirit inspired author at that point.
Like that's where that's not even like hitting Paul and James
against each other, which would be like a whole other

(12:40):
conversation, just faith and works.
And how do those work together? But obviously they they go
together the same spirit inspired.
But this is Paul in first Timothy 5 and first Timothy.
And he didn't even split them upinto chapters.
That's just for our organization.
Like he just went from one thought to the next.
And so, yeah, that's what I loveabout God's word.
It it, it brings us into those tensions as our minds need to be

(13:02):
transformed by His word. Yeah, I love that Dallas Jenkins
worked on the Elephant Room, andnow he's gone on to do The
Chosen and all the amazing. I didn't even realize.
You didn't realize. I don't.
I don't know Dallas Jenkins. So yeah, I had no idea.
Yeah, so when me and him first connected, it was like one of
the things that that he brought up, I was reacting to some of

(13:23):
the old elephant room stuff and he was like, yeah, man.
Like we worked on that. That was the church he was at.
I don't remember the name of that church, but that was a
church that he was at at the time.
And so that kind of launched hiscareer in a way.
I mean, he's done obviously things way bigger than that
since, but that was kind of likeone of the first things that he
did that. He like produced.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had no idea.
And so now he's doing the Chosenand all that sort of stuff.

(13:45):
Have you? So you don't remember meeting
him back then? No, I mean, maybe we met during
that, during that time, like in that, I mean, it was just like,
it was like an overnight trip. Like it was in and out.
Yeah, it was. So, yeah, I, and that's where,
again, I, yeah, I don't want to get into all the details, but I,
I didn't even know this was going to be like, produced.

(14:05):
Yeah, I, I, we actually thought this was going to be a more
private conversation. Oh, interesting.
I'm telling you, it was not whatI had envisioned.
That's amazing. OK, so you've, you've been in
some very like public places, secret church president of IMB,
but now you're, you're your local church guy.

(14:28):
Yeah, Yeah. Well, yeah.
So I, I, I pastored in Birmingham, AL for about 8
years. Then I, I thought I was going to
move overseas, but ended up leading the IMB International
Missions organization and then did that for about four years,
but then really missed. Yeah, pastoring.
And so I've been in pastor in metro DC since 2017.
Do you? Do you miss any of the platforms

(14:50):
you've had previously, meaning that being in different seasons,
managing a big board like I am B?
Or do you really love like the local church in what you're
doing now? I'm like in the sweet spot right
now in the sense that so I am a big believer in plurality of
leadership. So there's actually two of us
who are lead pastors in our local church.
So we, we, it's about 5050 preaching, but even, even when

(15:13):
it comes to leadership for the last, for the first 6-7 years I
was there, I was like the primary leader.
I brought an incredible brother,Mike Kelsey alongside me.
And he'd already been serving atthe church for much longer than
I'd been there. But I brought him into a role.
And the way we put it, like withour elders and with the church
was, hey, when I when I lay my head on my pillow at night, what

(15:36):
I dream about is getting the gospel to 3 billion people
who've never heard it. And when Mike lays the citizens
bill is night, he dreams about athriving church in healthy
church in Metro DC, which I wantto see.
And he wants to see the gospel go to the ends of the earth.
But that's just where our leanings are.
So we actually, we said, all right, we're both going to be
lead pastors, but he's going to be kind of the leader of the

(15:56):
lead pastors between the two of us.
So it's what I mean by the sweetspot is I love shepherding this
church family with the word, being a part of this team, doing
that. At the same time, I really want
to give a lot of my attention tosee in the gospel to go to the
people who've never heard it. So I'm able to give a lot of
attention to that while being a part of always.
So that's that's like win, win for me.

(16:18):
And Mike takes like the primary leadership that I just kind of
yield more to him in the local church picture.
I mean, sounds like a healthy, healthy model.
I, it's, it's great like I, I, it's good personally, I think
it's good for the church. I want the church to be
dependent on God's word, not a particular person.
And, and I want to be, I want tofaithfully steward what God's

(16:42):
yeah, put on my heart to do among the nations so.
You you say you have a more evangelistic leaning.
Well, I just, I'm, I'm gripped, yes, yes, generally.
And then like globally, like I just, I think the fact that 3
billion people have little to noknowledge of the Gospel right
now is a massive problem that we, we have unprecedented

(17:06):
opportunity to change today. And I want to be a part of
spending my life, as long as I have breath, changing that
reality. Yeah, I love that.
What do you think about technology playing a role in
that? I'll give you like my reality.
They're saying there's going to be a billion users that hit
YouTube by the year 2030 becausefast Internet is being spread to

(17:32):
developing nations. People have more access to
things like smartphones and tablets and computers.
And so with by the year 2030, we're expecting a billion more
people to hit this platform thatwe're on right now.
What do you think of the, the tech side of this?
Or are you kind of like a hey, let's go and send missionaries
there or it's a ambo? All all definitely both and but

(17:53):
I mean we would be fools to not steward technology like the the
day we live in. I just, that's the way I always
think about it, like there are more people unreached by the
gospel today than ever before inhistory like that.
I think we need to really let that soak in for any father of
Jesus to realize we're living ina time where there are more
people today that have little tono access to the gospel than

(18:16):
ever before in history. And at the same time, we have
more opportunities to reach themthan ever before in history.
Like I think Paul, like he wouldgo, I mean, how long did it take
him to write a letter and get itsent and over months and then
months to get some kind of replyback?
The fact that you and I can communicate with people around
the world through all kinds of means, through devices in our

(18:36):
pockets, this is amazing. So how do we steward that?
So yes, like May God bless everybody who's in this space,
who's got the gospel in a way that leads to the spread of the
gospel through those like I usedto when I travel around the
world. I used to, it was, yeah, 1015
years ago, meeting people who like they found a Bible at a

(18:59):
market in this unreached part ofthe world.
And then they read it, came to know Jesus.
They're like the only believer in this Muslim dominated areas,
whatever it might be today. They don't have to go find a
physical Bible in the market. Like it can pop up on their
phones. And like we've got all kinds of
work happening around the world where that technology can be
used to link together. Believe like I just think about

(19:21):
brothers and sisters in Afghanistan as who both live in
Afghanistan and have been spreadout from Afghanistan.
We're like helping coordinate all kinds of evangelism,
disciple making church planning,leadership training all through
technology as people are scattering among Afghans like
that. The opportunities to do that, I
think Paul would like, he would be salivating over that and

(19:43):
like, so how do we the, the question is how do we steward
those things well then? Yeah, yeah.
I I want to come back to the idea of how to steward them.
Well. I think it's fascinating to what
you pointed out two things, the the rate of teaching going out
through stuff like YouTube and social media and the apps
available to us. With you version, but not just

(20:07):
like a you version of translation of the Bible and
studies, which I think is great.I love what they're doing.
But Logos became a partner of ours recently and they just
changed their entire model. Like when I heard of Logos, it
was like hundreds of dollars, thousands of dollars, 1199 right
now to get the software. I think the most expensive plans
like 20 bucks a month. Wow.
And you're talking the same tools that pastors have been

(20:28):
using to study and put this stuff together.
Now they're doing it for the average person can have.
And I and I now do my Devo on Logos every single morning.
And I'm just like, this is crazybecause just a couple years ago
it was like I felt weird doing anything with him because I'm
like, man, this is a couple $100who has $100 to spend on it on
Bible software, right? If you're a pastor, I get it.

(20:49):
And now they're like, yeah, no, like we're doing 60 day free
trials and almost anyone can afford this thing at 12 bucks a
month. So good, man.
Like yes, yes, that accessibility that we have.
Like accessibility to deeper tools, the Greek, the Hebrew,
the commentaries. Like it's amazing.
It's not hidden. I mean, when you think about it,
and this was like reformation centuries ago when just plain

(21:11):
the word of God made available in the people's language.
But then all the more so to yourpoint with like, yes, those
tools that would help you understand it and that's that.
But that's the thing. I mean, coming back to that word
stewardship, like are we stewarding these opportunities
before? Because we all know that all
these technologies are super distracting.
All these technologies can be used for all kinds of evil.

(21:32):
And and so how do we make sure we are yeah, I mean, I just
think about this device and light of all we're talking about
right now. It can be used for so much good
and it can be used for so much poison in our minds.
So how do we yeah, how do we andif we're not careful, we'll be
conformed to the battle of this world.
That's right. Instead of really stewarding
this unique moment. I mean, really, I, I feel, I, I

(21:55):
hope you do like Ester, like forsuch a like, what a time to be
alive. Like we have more opportunity to
spread the gospel to the ends ofthe earth, to build up the
church all around the world thanever before in history.
Like that's, that's the day we're living in.
Like let's, let's let's Colossians Chapter 4 make the
best use of this time. Yeah, you said, you said

(22:17):
stewardship, right. And one of the things that I
really appreciate your new book,How to Read the Bible.
You guys should go get it. It's actually a really cool,
like short read. You have a framework called maps
in it. And the, the part that really
stood out to me is the is the S which which I want to come back
to, but from folks who aren't familiar kind of breakdown maps

(22:39):
and, and how to incorporate intoour own devotional time.
Because I think there is that it's actually a framework on how
we can steward it. And I want to come to the South
because that really kind of spoke to me, but break that down
for me. Yeah, so I mean maps, acrostic,
the whole idea is like Psalm one19162 I rejoice at your word.

(23:00):
Like one who finds great spoil. Like I, I really believe there
is spoil waiting for us every morning in this word.
And and yeah, I think many Christians are totally missing
out on that spoil and and the treasure that's found there.
So it's like maps. How do you how do you get to
this treasure? And so the real quick run

(23:22):
through would be M meditate and memorize like more than we see
reading God's word. It's meditating.
It's soaking it in, not emptyingour minds like Easter
meditation, but filling our minds with truth.
And God tells us, Someone Like You meditate on my word, day and
night, you will experience everlasting happiness,
blessedness. So.

(23:42):
So meditation and memorize. I think that's part of how we
meditate is by hiding God's wordin our hearts, by memorizing it,
turning it over in our minds. I think we need to always be
continually in a process of memorizing to the extent which
we're mentally able to do that. So meditate and memorize a
apply. Yeah.
Jesus says everyone who hears these words of mine does not put

(24:03):
them in practice. It's like a foolish man who
built his house on sand and it gets destroyed.
So there's actually a way to hear my words that leads to
destruction. And James says the same thing or
similar thing when he says don'tmerely listen to the words so
deceive yourselves, do what it says.
So there's actually a way to read the Bible that actually
leads to deception. So there's a way to read the
Bible that leads to destruction and deception.

(24:24):
How do we avoid that application?
So I just kind of walked througha framework for really thinking
through how to apply God's word.So that's AP pray God's word as
to John 15 just straight from Jesus mouth, you abide in me, my
words abide in you, ask whateveryou wish and will be given to
you. Like there's a lot of things we
pray for that we don't know how God's going to answer, but we
know when we're praying specifically according to his
word, he's going to give us whatwe ask.

(24:46):
So how do we pray according to God's word and let that lead
into like true communion with God?
We're talking to him, We're listening to him.
Like just the thought that this morning, like I had a meeting
with God and it's not just for me, it's any of us.
And I like actually heard the voice of God unquestionably.
It was his voice in Psalm 130 inMicah 5-6 and seven, I heard his

(25:08):
voice and I'm speaking to him all the things that are having
on my heart. So pray and then it leads to ask
share like this word's too good to stop with us.
So how do we I and I think this is missing in a lot of the ways
we think about God's word to to think, OK, what can I get out of
God's word today? How, how, how can I benefit from
it? But it's not I mean, think

(25:29):
Deuteronomy chapter 6 when you walk, by the way, when you sit
down, when you rise, when you and all your conversations be
saturated with the word. And so how do you be intentional
about taking what you hear from God's Word and integrating it
into your conversation all day long?
There's a section in here where you said, are you a receiver or
a reproducer? And you, you actually get into

(25:50):
journaling, which I appreciate because we were big advocates
for journaling. Again, I, I love doing my little
devo on the Logos app, but then I also have a, it's not in this
room. It's in my, where I do my devo.
I have a journal where I go through and I think about what I
read and I write it down becauseI think there's something to
writing out our prayers, writingout the things we're learning.

(26:11):
But this section right here really stood out to me and I'll
tell you why in a second. But you said this command from
Jesus and purpose for our lives means that we see in God's word
is not intended to stop with us.It's intended to spread through
US. I have often asked followers of
Jesus this question, are you a receiver or a reproducer of
God's word? And to me, this is something I

(26:31):
kind of felt, I guess conflictedby.
I'd love to hear thoughts on this is that I have a little
channel on my Instagram thing. It's like daily devo and I'll
read my chapter of Proverbs. I'll try to tie it into
something in a New Testament andI'll put like a little one
paragraph devotional that I sendout on my Instagram every every
morning, right? And sometimes I, I would feel

(26:53):
conflicted in that this, but it's should my devo just be for
me and my own quiet time and my relationship with God?
And is it does it then become performative if I'm reading to
share, right? And do I need to keep stuff
that's just for me and right, but this gave me a degree of
like, no, it's, it's good. Like it's good to share what I'm

(27:15):
learning, even if it's at scale,leveraging technology, right?
A receiver and a producer, not one or the other.
Is is it my My. Yeah, man, man, there's so much
there actually, because I do think it's, it's good to like
check your spirit in that. Because if we're just going to
the word for something to post on social media, then OK, that's

(27:40):
we're actually, I mean, and I'd I'd say this out of the overflow
of yeah, a not good season of myown life where it was actually
soon after radical had come out pastoring church, church
growing. I'm getting invited to preach in
all these different places. Like on the outside things look
like they was going great. They were going great.
But man, my my intimacy with God, like my time just in his

(28:05):
word just to know him was inconsistent of best non
existent most days. So I would go to the word like
to prepare a sermon every Sunday, but I wouldn't go to
God's word just to know God likethat's that's pretty sick.
Like I was using God as a means for all this stuff.
Like I didn't actually want God.Like I could turn on a public

(28:29):
prayer just like that, but I I wouldn't get alone just to gaze
upon his beauty in a Psalm 27 way and just be with him.
So all that to say, I think it'sa yeah, I praise God for his
grace in my life during that season.
And but it and it's frightening how easily and really even
successful I could be like in this church world and do it

(28:51):
totally apart from intimacy withGod.
So I'm so thankful that season could have gone in so many
different directions that he didn't let it go in.
I wouldn't be sitting here today.
But all that to say, we need to check our motives in that way.
So am I Yeah, in the Proverbs just to know God.
But then yes, it would it would make no sense to dwell on

(29:15):
eternal treasure and then be like, I'm just going to hold
that to close to the vest, like yes, steward the opportunities
to make that known. So I think, yeah, it's a both
end. The illustration I use in the
book, I think I can't remember if I use it or not, but it's
from spending time in Sudan. This was actually years ago
war-torn Sudan, which it's stillthe case today, obviously, but

(29:38):
but spending time with brothers and sisters in mud huts in the
Sudan, diving into God's word and they come up to you and they
say everything we're learning, we're going to take it and
translate it and teach it in ourtribes.
Like they they knew they weren'tjust receiving, they were
reproducing. So it it is about that.
Yeah, that's beautiful. The the book opens with a an

(30:00):
introduction you writing a love letter to a a girl.
And I just got to read this first line because I thought you
you don't have. To.
There's there's dear Heather, dude, I am so glad you called
tonight. And do you go through this thing

(30:21):
you say praying for you, dude, You said dude at least three
times in this thing. And you connect this to the idea
of reading the Bible. Connect the pieces.
Yeah, the whole idea is OK be a little vulnerable at the
beginning totally destroy any credibility one that you might
have. But too like this is like the
word of God like I and I talk about it different points just

(30:43):
love writing a letter receiving a letter from my wife and this
is before like texting or anything like that.
So these, and man, I would obsess over every word I would
write every, every word I would read, but, and, and you'd be
like, yeah, you were totally obsessed.
And yes, but it's because I was in love.
And that's what I want people tosee.

(31:04):
Like this is love relationship with God that this book opens us
up to. And so, yeah, just like when my
wife would write me a letter andI would like dissect every word,
I'd be like, all right, why did she say what, what did she mean
when she said, I'm praying for you?
Like she's saying I'm praying for you like I pray for my
future husband. Is that what she's saying?
Why did she put a :) there? Like what, what if we did that

(31:26):
with God's word instead of just reading over it Like I was in
Psalm 1:30 this morning? Like if you, O Lord, should mark
iniquities, O Lord, who could stand with you, there's
forgiveness and you are to be feared like to whoa, why does he
say, Oh Lord, twice there what Icould I stand if in my sin
before God, No way. Like with you, there's
forgiveness, praise God, there'sforgiveness so that you may be

(31:48):
feared. Whoa.
So I fear God because of his forgiveness.
How does that work? Like you usually think about
fearing somebody because of their wrath.
You actually fear God because oftheir forgiveness.
So that that's like 2 verses from this morning.
So to just really just soak it in because you are communing
with God himself, that's the heart of what I want to get to

(32:09):
in this book. I love that chapter 2 is how not
to read the Bible, which the emotional approach would feel is
good to me. These you have the the pragmatic
approach, what works best for me, the spiritual approach, what
deep hidden meaning is there forme and the superficial approach.
What does this mean to me? Right.
And I think giving people a framework on how not to do it.

(32:31):
And again, you come back to the idea of maps, talk a little bit
about that and and how we shouldn't approach.
Descriptions I think the the reality is there are there's an
adversary who wants to deceive us, who wants to lead us into
error. I mean, he knows if he can get
us believing lies, then he's he's, he's winning.

(32:51):
So and this word is truth. So but The thing is even in
Bibles like this is spiritual battle when you open up this
word this way, I would just encourage like open my eyes and
I make a whole wonderful things in your law.
God, I need your help to understand this word because we
can take any verse from here, twist it and turn it into
anything we want to. We can actually adapt this word

(33:12):
to our lives instead of transforming our lives according
to what's in this word. And we can, if we're not
careful, we can just, I mean, what we were talking about
earlier with first Timothy 5:00 and 6:00, that context is so
important. But if you just cherry pick a
verse out and just, OK, here's my verse for the day, but you
don't read all that's going on around it, understand who's
writing it, who's receiving it, then you're going to, you're not

(33:35):
going to understand it. So to really come to God's word
and say, OK, what is God's saying?
What's what in this passage? What has God been saying for
Yeah, thousands of years to his people?
What's the timeless truth here? And then, yes, then to rightly
and appropriately apply it to our lives like this is where
life's found. But if we're not careful, we'll

(33:56):
we'll actually miss that and andBible reading can be dangerous.
Yeah, yeah. That's good.
And and the reality is that there's certain aspects of the
scriptures that that do kind of hit all these like sometimes you
read the scriptures and it will be emotional, right?
Sometimes it will be pragmatic. Sometimes there will be deep,
deeper hidden meaning that it sounds like you're pushing back

(34:17):
against the idea of like only going for one of these reasons,
like like pitching your tent on just the idea of like, I need
some deep secret esoteric deposit just for me, right.
And you're saying, Hey, that's that's not the.
Way to work. I think what I'm saying is like
go fundamentally with I just, I want to hear your word.
I want to hear what you are saying, what you've said to your

(34:39):
people all throughout history. And then if I, if I get there, I
know your Holy Spirit is going to apply that pointedly in my
life in a personal way. Like I, I love that.
Like Psalm 1:30 this morning, like there is there's truth
there that God's been speaking to his people for thousands of
years. And man, it hit home this cry

(34:59):
for mercy, the very beginning ofthat chapter that I feel right
now as a dad like. So yeah, it, it hit home in a
but I, I didn't, I, I don't, I don't get there without first
seeing what God is saying. And then, yes, it's going to
apply to my life. Yes, it's going to transform my
heart. Yes, it's going to speak like to
me specifically and personally. But if we're not careful, we can

(35:20):
say, OK, what, what, what does this passage have for me?
And we can, we can jump past first just what is God saying in
the passage? That's the whole idea in the
maps framework is just kind of get to what God is saying and
then let that do its work in you.
Yeah. There's a a section when you say
we make time for what we love and compare Bible reading to how

(35:43):
we treat our phones right. What habits have helped you
personally prioritize God's wordin a hyper distracted world?
Yeah, well, I mean, one, this sounds super basic, but and I
it'll almost sound a little maybe cliche or overdramatic, I
don't know. But I, I cannot live without a
concentrated time in this word in the morning.

(36:05):
I, I, yeah, my mind will go in all kinds of different ways.
It'll be conformed to this world.
I I need this word. So that concentrated time in the
morning, I just think Psalms meditating on his word day and
night. So how do you do that?
Well, you got to start by, I think concentrated time in the
morning as as much as possible. That's going to lead throughout

(36:29):
your day. And so then where I would
encourage and so personal practice would be so time in the
morning and I'm journaling in God's Word.
It helps me to stay focused, like writing down what I'm
seeing in God's Word instead of my mind being distracted.
So that's where journaling is super helpful for me, but then
I'll try to throughout the day be turning over at least a verse

(36:51):
in my mind. So that memorized kind of
portion of it. So whether it's I mean, the last
few days it's been Psalm 127 just yeah and and with anxious
toil you you it's in vain that you do all this work apart from
trust in the Lord, rest in the Lord.
And so I've just been turning that over in my mind
continually. So I try to do that all day

(37:12):
long. I've got something.
So this is where I think the phone can be helpful.
Like I've got the my to do app that I use.
I've got a section for memorization so I can pull it
up. So all those idle moments, yeah,
when you're prone to be like, OK, let me just check something.
So I'm pulling up that part the.Actual to do app that comes with
like the standard to do. It's like a Things app.
Oh Things app, so it's. Just it's just things and

(37:33):
there's a project in there that's memorization.
And what I've got is a list of verses that I'm continually
working on memorizing. So if I have idle moment,
whenever that is, then I'm turning to instead of just
checking whatever other apps that it's going to be a time
waste. And it's not that it's bad to
look at anything but the Bible. I'm not saying that, but that's
part of what I'm trying to say in the book.

(37:54):
Like we spend hours filling our minds with stuff.
Let's fill it with what actuallyis going to bring us life
instead of what destroys us. And so that's so I've got verses
Psalm 1199740141 47. So I'm just saying those verses
over and over again as I'm looking down the list.
And so I've got like the verses like Psalm one 19147 right now.

(38:17):
And then in my mind I'm just like, OK, I rise before dawn and
cry for help. I hope in your words.
And I'm just doing that with allthese different verses I'm
memorizing. So that's one practical thing so
that when I lay down on my head on my pillow night, like I'm, I
try to the last thing that I'm, I'm thinking consciously focused
on at least trying to is those verses that I'm memorizing.
So, and in the process, I, I think I'm meditating on God's

(38:40):
word day and night and, and God's promise that this is going
to lead to blessedness in my life.
That's beautiful physical Bible digital.
It's all for me, it's all digital, so I've got.
It's all digital, OK? You have your physical Bible.
I, I go back and forth here because I got, I love physical
Bibles. I have so many of them.
I have a Nas B2020. I have an IV my my church

(39:02):
primarily uses the N IV. So I have, I have like a really
nice NIVNASB study Bible and every NLTKJ.
And so I I jump back and forth Sometimes I really like being in
a physical Bible. Like there's something sure, the
physical aspect and then the journaling by hand and all that
sort of stuff. And then and again lately it's
just been Logos to the ability to just like click on a word and

(39:23):
jump to the Greek or jump to theHebrew has been really nice.
That's what mine mine is usually.
So if I'm home, I, it's not, notas much when I'm travelling, but
I've actually got a, yeah, I've got a, a treadmill in my office
at home and I put it on an incline and a kind of a slow
walk. So, and then I've got my iPad
and I'm just, so I, I'm not likerunning.
I can't focus if I'm sure in thesame way, but a slow walk.

(39:46):
And I, so I've got my iPad and I'm switching back and forth
between my journaling and my Logos app.
And so I'm reading, I'm copy andpasting, I'm making notes, I'm
journaling, I'm praying, listen to music like that's that's not
my hour or whatever in the morning.
All right, well, I feel less badfor being on the digital now.
No, man, yes. Well, I, I it's easier for me in

(40:06):
the journaling picture. Yeah, just to.
So I'm copying and pasting like I.
So I'll copy over these verses from 1 Psalm 130 and then just
write a prayer based on it, or write things I'm observing in
it, whatever. Yeah, I love that.
Yeah. I, I, yeah, I go back and forth.
I want to. I probably I need to figure out
start in the physical, jump intothe digital and get some deeper

(40:27):
insights on the original language and then like end in
the. Physical, you know what other
thing that's helpful for me and I don't, so I don't do this
every morning. I mean, what I just described
is, is my most consistent, but, and I do this some, you can do
this on iPad with like a Apple Pencil or something or, or to
physically print out whatever you're in the word and have some

(40:48):
space in between it so that you can circle underline and just
make notes and just really devour.
Like, OK, I'm going to meditate on this passage and not just
read through it. I'm just going to what, what are
the connections I'm seeing? And this is a lot of the stuff
that I walked through in the book, but just how can I really
soak in all that's here? Yeah, I love that in the book

(41:08):
you shared a story about families in Muslim, in the
Muslim world memorizing the Quran by the age of 13.
How can it challenge us as Christians in churches to to, to
do something similar? I watch, I, you know, the Quran
is much shorter than the New Testament, but it's they're
still memorizing it. Like, that's pretty impressive.
Yeah, it's really impressive. And I think, yeah, if they're

(41:31):
that committed to the the words that are not true, we know these
words are true that we have like, what does that say?
So I, that's where man, I, I would say in light of what we've
been talking about, like meditation on God's Word, that
except for rare situations wheresomeone is just not mentally
able to memorize that we, I would highly recommend us always

(41:55):
being in some process of memorizing.
I think this is part of meditation on God's word.
The, the, I remember the moment when this stuck out for me.
I was a teenager at like a youthretreat and the guy who was
leaving musical worship, he put down his guitar at one point and
he just quoted a passage of Scripture, a chapter of
Scripture. And I was like, my jaw was on
the ground, like I've never hurtanybody.

(42:16):
It was so powerful. Just quote a, a, a chapter of
the Bible. And I remember a brother pulled
me aside, older brother in Christ pulled me aside And he
said, David, if you want to knowGod and be used mindly by God,
you'd hide his word in your heart.
And so that's when I that based on that started, yeah, just
trying to do more focus memorization of chapters or

(42:39):
books. And and I for a lot of people
when they hear that they're like, oh, that feels way out
there. But that I always think of this
one brother in our church family, we were we were walking
through first John and we challenged the church to
memorize the first chapter together.
This guy never memorized a chapter of the Bible.
He's like, I'm going to do it. He got his teenage son and said,
hey, let's do this together. So that on the drive to and from

(43:01):
school in the morning, they would do this.
They memorize this whole first chapter, first John chapter one.
They get to the end and his son looks at him and says, we're not
stopping here, are we? And his dad was like, I guess
not. They memorized the whole book of
first John together. Like what more valuable thing
could a dad and son, teenage sondo in the car than this right
here? And it totally changed this

(43:21):
guy's life. So it's doable.
And one of the the verses I I point to Psalm 1/19/72.
Pretty sure it's 72, but the lawof your mouth is worth more than
thousands of gold and silver pieces 'cause I know a lot of
people say I just, I'm not very good at memorization, but if I
were to tell you like between now and this time tomorrow, I'll

(43:42):
give you $100,000 for every verse you can memorize.
I think most figure it out. Figure it out like Jesus wept.
Boom. Like which?
Book would you recommend people start with it?
They were like, hey, I'm, I'm inone New Testament book.
You think we could start with? Well, I would say both.
Both robust theologically. Yeah.
Well, I mean, I would like, I would recommend if you're going
to memorize like a chapter of the Bible, I would totally go to

(44:04):
Romans chapter 8 and just memorize Romans 8.
It's 8 slaps. Yeah, it's, I mean, now it's a
chime. It's 39 verses, but you will not
regret one moment of that. The other thing I would add
though, and there might be a little easier start would be
like memorize A Psalm. Like that's memorization changes
your prayer life and prayers andpsalms are prayers.

(44:25):
So it changes your prayer life. It just changes everything about
you. It changes the way you think it
because it's becoming sacred nature to you.
It changes your prayer life. It changes your ability to
encourage other brothers and sisters in Christ.
Now you have the storehouse of God's word just to speak life
into others changes your conversations with unbelievers.
Not that you're going to like goand quote Romans 8 to an
unbeliever, but you do have likeyou have good news that there's

(44:46):
no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, that the
law of the spirit of life sets you free from the law of sin and
death. Like that's, that's great news
to share with some everybody andit yeah.
So it just, it transforms so much.
Oh, Buck. I mean, I would probably start
with a smaller book like one of Paul's letters, like, well,
Philippians. OK, I was thinking Philippians.

(45:08):
Colossians, Ephesians is a little bit longer.
So those, I mean that that wouldbe, that'd probably be where I
would start, yeah. Yeah, you know, a chapter and I
don't know if this would be great.
From James. Sorry.
Anyway, go. No Philippian.
I think Philippians and Colossians are amazing.
Acts 7, it's kind of cool because it's summarizes the
entire narrative of scripture, right?

(45:29):
This is as Steven, I think that Steven's giving a speech to the
Saint Hedro. And so it's like if someone's
even a new reader, like new to the scriptures, like you kind of
go to Acts 7 and kind of get themeta narrative of scripture in
one chapter. It's funny you say that, that
that brother who kind of pulled me aside at that point when I
was in high school and said, Hey, he pointed to Steven and he
said, so here's a guy who's on trial basically, and he's about

(45:50):
to lose his life and he just recounts the whole to us like
it's just it's in him like he doesn't have to like go read it
and and he's on trial and it's just the word of God is just
flowing from him. So that's man, what would it
look like if that was like the way we were living like that?
I really think that and not in away that's weird and awkward and
like, OK, you're just like this Bible person just thumping like,

(46:13):
no, don't get that. But it's life.
Like, we talk about politics andweather and sports and a million
other things that are all going to burn up.
Like, they're not going to last.Like, at some point, how are we,
like, filling our mouths with that which is life in natural
ways? Yeah.
I love it Bible in a year plans you think it's too much

(46:35):
information. You think something every
something everyone should do once.
I have quite a few of the Bible in a year plans different
translations. So by the Bible in a year I'm
talking about. So this is, I think this is the
new King James, right? And this has Old Testament, New
Testament, Psalm and Proverb every single day of the year.

(46:57):
And it's you get through the whole Bible in a year.
For me, the con has always been,man, you hit them long like
Leviticus stretches. Yeah, yeah, just like.
Oh my gosh, right. But I've run I've I've I've read
through the Bible cover to coverlike 6 or 7 times because I'm
just sticking to the Bible on the year plan now how much of it
I retained in the Old Testament?Well, but you're that, that's

(47:18):
the thing I think you're gonna have to like, yeah, you're not
gonna retain it all. Like that's I I was just
reading, rereading some of George Mueller's biography.
He read through the Bible like 200 plus times.
Like, yeah, yeah, But I do. I would say yes, we need to hear
the whole counsel of God. Like we actually need Leviticus
at some point in our Christian life.
Like we don't need just to just stay in Philippians because it

(47:42):
seems more applicable. So I would recommend having over
the course of some amount of time, like one of my favorite
Bible reading plans that I've used, it actually goes through
over the course of two years. It's by a guy named Robert
Murray McShane, but it's Old Testament once New Testament in
Psalms twice over the course of two years because two chapters a
day, like I think that's totallymanageable.

(48:04):
Yeah. So right now our church families
were reading through the Bible over the course of the year.
So we we've got more like four or five chapters a day, but and
so, so and I think it's good to switch it up.
One other thing is it. Is it real quick?
Is there a physical version of the robber?
Yeah, if you anybody can just Google it.
Robert McShane, Solid 8. All together into.
And what's great is I've given this out to so many people, but

(48:26):
DA Carson wrote a devotional that goes along with it.
It's a 2 volume devotional. So, so you can actually do all
that 4 chapters a day and do it all in one year Old Testament
once, New Testament Psalms twice, or you can spread it out
over 2 years. And DA Carson has a devotional
that identifies like one of the chapters in, in each day's
reading. So it's, that's called for the

(48:47):
love of God. And it's a, it's just a great,
it's a great devotional. So anyway, I, I recommended that
the other thing I was going to add years ago, my wife and I
started using the same Bible reading plan and it's been game
changing because so we, we have our own time with the Lord in
the morning, but when we, we usually are kind of normal

(49:09):
routine when I'm in town, like we're in the spend time with the
Lord. Then we finish, we get in the
car and we go do CrossFit workout and, but as soon as we
get in the car, and it's not every morning, it's like this
amazing biblical discussion or whatever, but we've got a, a
foundation for the rest of our day.
We've just heard the same thing from God.
Like, did you see that? Did you hear that?

(49:30):
Man, that was so helpful. Wasn't it this bad?
And so and throughout the day and then we've, as our kids have
grown, they are part of that Bible reading plan with us.
And so when our, we have family worship times at night, it's
like, Hey, what are you guys seeing in the word?
What did you learn from this part of like Mica today or this
part of Psalms? Like we know we're in the same
place and we actually do it as achurch family too.

(49:50):
So which I would add is really helpful when you get in those
Leviticus stretches and you're not on your own, like you've got
others that you're walking through it with and you can even
process what in the world was that?
Yeah, Yeah, that's good. I, I, I first time I heard about
that breeding plan was, was fromyou.
So the one, that one that we've done again, I've done it in a
small group, in small group, it was great.
But I almost like it's a little too much information trying to

(50:12):
get through the whole thing a year, right?
That's why I've liked the two chapters a day.
I like do it over the course of two years.
That's been probably my favoriteBible reading.
OK. Audio Bibles, what do you, what
do you, what do you think of those?
Sometimes when I'm trying to catch up, when I was doing the
Bible, you get, you know, I falloff or I don't read the whole
thing. Throw on the audio Bible to

(50:33):
speed, just to get caught up. What do you think of that?
I think I mean more Bible the better.
So I'm not going to like dish onlike any Bible reading in one
sense, as long as we're really wanting to know God.
I think, and I would add like people learn differently.
Like I, I don't do as well with audiobooks period.
I it's better for me to like to see it.

(50:54):
I would say maybe one particulardrawback of just audio Bible is
it is harder to memorize, meditate, memorize, really turn
over. How does this word relate to
this word? How does that can I I think we
need to see be that to really meditate in that kind of way.
So I I think but that's where I would say I intentionally said

(51:14):
just audio Bible because I thinkit'd be good to see it and be
able to meditate it on that way.But yeah, any chance you get to
fill your mind with the truth ofGod's word audio Bibles, yeah.
When? So you mentioned earlier in
your, your own journey, Birmingham, AL yeah, that's

(51:36):
where you were pastoring. How many years did you pastor?
Eight years? Eight years?
And did you plant that church? No, OK.
You. So, yeah, I stepped in.
I had not pastored before. And it was, yeah, this the the
church been planted about. I'm trying to remember 15 years
before something like that. And used to have grown really
quickly. Yeah, I did.

(51:57):
I was totally in over my head, man.
Like, I mean, whichever your pastor is, but I mean, I, I feel
like literally sit down on the first day and like, what do I
do? I have no idea what to do.
How old were you when you started?
I was like 26 or 27 at that point.
What do you what? Do you make of that?
OK, so I have a theory now. I'd love to bounce this off of
you in hindsight as someone that's been a part of church

(52:19):
plants with guys in their late 20s and I was in my teens early
and early 20s. I.
I could never see myself being apart of something like that
again, only because, and maybe you were the exception to the
rule. So I just, it seems like a rough
time to plant a church in terms of the season of life.
And now I'm at Rhythm Church, which was a plant of North Coast

(52:41):
Church here in Vista. Larry Osborne, Chris Brown, I'm
sure you know who those guys aregreat guys.
And, and it, it is so different being in a church plant under
Pastor Jeff Moore's, who plantedin his mid 40s, then under a guy
who planted in there. Oh, I'm.
Sure, yes. Of course, so you, you're
stepping in at 2627 to lead a church is do you have the same

(53:05):
kind of pluralistic elders in ina support system and you're just
kind of like the Sunday morning Bible preacher or like what what
was that like? Is that not to have been hard in
your late? I mean, Zach.
Zach, how old are you? So he's 27.
I couldn't imagine Zach pastoring in church.
Zach, man, I'm sure, bro, if theLord called you to it, he'd like
man. I Yeah.

(53:27):
Was that why? I mean, I don't know, man.
The Lord was gracious and I I that that's part of why,
regardless of how old like now I'm a big believer in plurality
of leadership like plurality of elders, pastors in church.
It does not need to be on one person shoulders like we've got.

(53:47):
I don't trust myself that much. Yeah, yeah, I I need the Holies.
I love X15. It seemed good to the Holy
Spirit and to us that we do this.
So I I do think a lot of what webuilt in, especially larger
church structures that well, andit's not just larger church,
smaller churches that puts a loton the shoulders of one person

(54:08):
is super unhealthy for that person and for the church.
So thankfully, yeah, there were good leaders around me during
that time, but I mean, I was, I was leading, but I, and it's my
take away from that time is likethe word does the work.
I just, I remember sitting down like, what do I do?
OK, I got to preach on Sunday. And so OK, let's just follow,

(54:31):
let's start walking through the word and follow what the word
says. We and yeah, organize our
leadership structure around as best as we can what we
understand the word and it's it's actually a good place to be
where your dependence is not on your skills, but on the spirit
and the word. You only can do at the same time
maturity and is is a good thing.OK, so one of your kids, they're

(54:55):
in their mid 20s and they're like, hey, I'm going to go
pastor a church. What are you telling them?
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm saying, OK, well, I'm looking at where they
are. Like I, I think of Charles
Spurgeon at 21, like yeah, like so I mean, there are some yeah,
yeah, yeah, survives of grace orjust yeah and and experiences.
So I mean, I'm but to, to make that discernment process with a

(55:18):
group of godly people seeking the Lord.
Like, there's so many factors that go into that with, you
know, anybody of any age, but especially at angry age.
And I do think we need to be more guarded, like not to be too
hasty and laying out of hands. Yeah, Yeah, that's good.
So where are you originally from?
Metro Atlanta. Metro Atlanta.

(55:39):
OK. So you're from Georgia, you lead
in Birmingham, and then you're in DC.
Now I know a couple pastors in DC, because that's where.
Yeah, like, yeah, we're in MetroDC kind of all around there
metro area. And that's, I mean, that's a
very different culture. That's a very different world in
terms of the the overlap of politics, that degree of, you

(56:02):
know, it's kind of Southern, butnot like 'cause, 'cause there's
just like that, that like you goa little further South and it
and you're in Virginia and that's kind of country, but that
area is very urban and, and, anddeveloped.
And So what was that transition like going from a Birmingham to
Metro DC? It's.
Very different yeah. Like and, and in so many good
ways like I I'm in our church family.

(56:25):
We have people from 100 different countries in the
church like it's, it's awesome, it's beautiful and it's hard
like holding, I mean, you got people from all kinds of
different backgrounds and in metro DC.
So our we've got 5 locations forour church and they're kind of
spread out around the metro area.
So we've got Maryland and then kind of Northern Virginia,

(56:46):
different counties, but for morerural to and conservative to
more progressive county in Maryland and everything in
between. So holding that all together,
especially over recent years, holding it all together around
Jesus has has been a challenge. At the same time, it's what I

(57:07):
love because there's no other explanation behind why all these
people from all these different backgrounds and all these
different perspectives who may actually be on some very
different ends of the spectrum on some particular things
politically or whatever it mightbe.
But why are they together? Because they actually love
Jesus. He's and his word, they all like

(57:31):
trust his word. We want to be obedient to his
word. One of the things I love, like
we'll have times where we'll getleaders together, members
together. We're sitting around and we'll
like bring in an issue immigration that will OK, let's
talk about this. How does the word because I want
people to be discipled by God's word, not the world on these
things and but we'll have this conversation with brothers and

(57:53):
sisters. OK, how do we think about this?
And people are bringing the wordto bear and but they're not
agreeing on exactly where they land on this.
But they're able to have and we were talking about this earlier,
like good conversation with one another that is in the context
of love. And they're able to totally
disagree, even to the point of like tears, but then walk away

(58:14):
with their arms around each other as brothers and sisters in
Christ. This is the body of Christ that
we're part of. We're part of another Kingdom
like that doesn't look for to this Yeah, every political
position in this country to be what unites us.
So, yeah, I just a couple monthsago did an event with the and
campaign and that was the the conversation we had, which

(58:35):
oddly, and as an immigrant, I'm,I'm a refugee from Azerbaijan, I
took a much more conservative position on some of this stuff
and how the Bible presupposes borders and how there's, you
know, laws in place. And so it was, it was definitely
an interesting dialogue to have on that specific issue because
it's a, it's you, you, you can. I mean, there's a lot of

(58:55):
passages on welcoming in the foreigner and the alien, yet
there seems to be an expectationof assimilation within said
culture. Not kind of hijacking and and
building your own thing, you know?
And, and in the context we're in, I just think, I think about
one particular sermon I preachedfrom Acts 17, God orchestrating

(59:16):
the movement of peoples that they might find him like just
got sovereignty over the movement of peoples.
I, I told a story about just theillustrated the refugee crisis
like in the world. And it wasn't even specific to
U.S. policy on immigration, but it was just like, we live in a
world of refugees all over the place.
I mean, I think it was a Syrian refugee story I told.

(59:37):
But all that to say, like the reaction from that was, whoa.
So you're saying you're from open for for open borders.
You're saying this. And it was just like, all these
things start getting loud. And it's like, wait a second,
Like we start just filtering even just the topic through all
the fabric of this political polarization instead of just I
mean, the whole point in the sermon was God is sovereign.

(01:00:00):
We should care for refugees. Let's think through Ivan when I.
I try to go out of the way to say, hey, I'm not saying this
just easily becomes this policy like we need to have good
discussions about how to do justice in that.
That's where I was in my time with Lord and Micah 6 this
morning. But, and, and we're probably
going to come to some different places on that, but to be in a

(01:00:20):
context where you're able to have good conversation around
that with the word at the centerand, and the Great Commission as
our goal, Like we're making disciples of all the nations.
Like we're not living for the promotion of a particular
country or political party or candidate.
Like we're actually living for the promotion of Jesus.
Like that's, that's who we are. It's what we do.
Principles, not prescriptions ofpolicy.

(01:00:41):
When the word is not like directand clear, yes.
Yeah, that's good. In around 2020, there was some
controversy with some stuff thathappened in McLaren that led to
a whole lawsuit, and it was a whole whole dog and pony show
that happened. What was that like walking
through that process? It seems like because you're in

(01:01:03):
a more metro area, you're speaking to some of these
issues, to issues of justice andthe entire thing outside of the
church structure stuff, it seemed like it started from,
Hey, you're too woke. It's CRT, it's this, it's that.
And the interesting part is I was just, I was just kind of a
conversation with my buddy Amin,South Side rabbi, I think you
and we were having this conversation on X and then we

(01:01:24):
went off X and it was this idea of like, hey, just cause the
Bible says justice, that doesn'tmean justice is a Marxist idea,
right? Like, like there is a precedent
for justice in Scripture. We see it all throughout.
At the same time, it does seem like that word has been hijacked
times to mean not hey, you don'tspeak up for those who can't

(01:01:44):
speak of themselves. Let's create laws that that they
create a more just system. But like anyone who identifies
as oppressed as oppressed and therefore has to be coddled,
right? And it's like that.
It is that over correction. And then there's the white
evangelical over correction. I know I'm using hyper
generalities. People can hate me for it, but
that's like, no, like nothing exists, nothing to see here.
There's no issues, No, no disparities, right?

(01:02:07):
And and if there are disparities, it's all natural.
And it's not because laws from 30 or 50 years ago have impacted
people negatively today. What was it like going through
all that, man? Because that that had to have
been hard. A small number of people end up
causing a pretty big bus in the church lawsuits.
Give me your side of it kind of like removed from it, going

(01:02:27):
through it and then now all the lawsuits are settled, dismissed.
It's all done. Give me give me your thoughts on
all that. Yeah, there's a lot there.
I, I would say 1 convictionally,I and other leaders during that
time, like, OK, this word justice, like people are going
to be discipled by the world or the word on this and I want them

(01:02:48):
to be discipled by God's word. So we we went through a whole
like in depth study as a church,like what does the Bible teach
about justice? Because it's not just a side
thing like that's what I was in my time with the Lord this
morning. He requires us to do justice,
his people to do justice. Micah 6-8.
So what does that word mean? And we walked through like
hundreds of references to see what the word means.

(01:03:10):
But what we found is even havingsome of those conversations in
this context are muscles for having those conversations in
healthy ways as the church as a local church at that point.
And then I think in the broader church have just not been
strong. And so I think so that led to,
yeah, particularly unhelpful, unhealthy ways of trying to

(01:03:34):
address that conflict and and LED to like a whole organized
strategy to how to oust your woke pastor.
And I was the example for this particular group and and not
sitting down across the table, like actually seeking peace with
one another in a Romans 14 kind of way.

(01:03:57):
And so it was really hard whenever we try to walk through
conflict using the world's strategies, and especially in a
political atmosphere, like we live in a metro DC political
strategies, that's not going to lead to helpful places like
there. God gives us good ways in his
word to walk through conflict. And when we go outside those
ways, it's going to it's disastrous for the church.

(01:04:19):
It's disastrous for the name of Jesus, his reputation in the
church. So, so it was hard.
It was, yeah, sanctifying. It's really, but in the end,
really good because, well, our church, by God's grace, the Lord

(01:04:40):
was he's, he's, he's faithful tohis church.
He he, we are at such a much healthier, happier place in
Christ than we were a few years ago.
So I'm so thankful for that. And even for me personally, like
man, I, I could tell you a ton of stories just of how God has

(01:05:00):
used this, that that those challenges in my own life to
like I just one example. I was we just this last fall.
We were walking through the Sermon on the Mount and I preach
about 50% of the time, but the text I just happened to have
were so good and so timely. Like rejoice and be glad when

(01:05:23):
they speak all kinds of evil falsely against you on my
account. Like how do you do that?
Like Luke's account actually says jump, leap for joy when
people speak lies about you. Oh man, how do you do that?
Well, clearly you're living for another world, like, and but
then the one, there was one particular week where, yeah,
just some criticism and people just saying all kinds of things

(01:05:47):
about me. And it was leading to, yeah,
people coming up to me just personally, like just railing at
me personally and. Like to your face?
Oh yeah, and it does. It's not AI mean yeah, it's not
an awesome feeling, especially in the in the flesh.
But that week I just so happenedto be preaching Matthew 61.
Be careful not to do your acts of righteousness before there is

(01:06:08):
to be seen by them. And I I'm literally preaching
that when I'm looking at my manuscript and I say the words
that I've written. True delight is found in the
contentment in the in the joy ofknowing that God sees and knows
and living for his glory alone. Like I know that I would have

(01:06:28):
told you for decades, I'm livingfor an audience of one, but once
an audience really starts, once some some people in an audience
really start coming at you, you,you, that's a it's a good check.
Like, am I really living? And it was like the Lord just
saying to me, I see, I know and be content in that.
And it was so freeing. Like I, I was talking with a a a

(01:06:52):
spiritual hero of mine. About a month later, I'm telling
him just what God was doing in my own heart through this.
And he looked at me and was like, you feel unstoppable,
don't you? I'm like, yeah, bro, I, I do.
I feel freer than I've ever feltfrom the applause of men.
So all that to say, like, yeah, God's, God's been really, really
gracious in the church and in, in my own life personally.

(01:07:15):
And, and at the same time, there's still a, a heaviness
like we pray for, for those who are brothers and sisters in
Christ, like we pray for restoration and, and yeah, for
a, a picture of the power of thegospel to reconcile.
So do you, was there anything that you have changed your mind

(01:07:35):
on in terms of not the biblical aspects of calling for justice,
but maybe some of the other stuff that was said?
Like I could, I could definitelysay that 2020-2021, very
different polarized time. And I think out of a desire for
trying to stick to the Scriptures that some of the
paradigms were perhaps not as a line to the Scripture.
I don't know if that's making sense, but I think for me, one

(01:07:57):
of the things that I'm, I'm gladthat during that time is I, I
was able to point to specific policy.
So I was a big advocate for the 8 Can't Wait campaign.
And it was like, hey, in light of this situation here, I can't
assess what isn't, isn't systemic and what isn't, isn't
this, but these eight things that are being recommended to
create more accountability within law enforcement.
I think we should all rally behind these, whether you're

(01:08:19):
black, white, whether you believe this is structural or
not structural, these eight things I can stand.
But in that I definitely my, my views have definitely evolved on
some of this stuff where I don'tknow how much bad policies from
50 years ago, 100 years ago, 30 years ago impact people today.
I don't know how much I I know there is some impact, but I

(01:08:40):
don't know if it's like the thing that to be talking about.
Would you say not talking about,obviously, you know, just
conversation for it, But would you say some of your views on
this has has changed and evolvedsince then?
Was were some of the critiques valid, do you think?
And and obviously not that you woke into the the labeling, but
just some of the ideas that perhaps you've evolved on.
Yeah, I, I think what I tried tobe, I can just think of

(01:09:05):
different, like sermons. I tried to be like as tired as I
could to hear is what God's Wordsays.
I'm sure though, there are timeswhen as soon as you just take
one step away and you're like trying to apply it to a
particular thing where there might be some disagreement.
That's where I, I'm all the morecareful now as a pastor to be

(01:09:26):
really clear, this is what God says.
And if I'm ever like veering offof here's how I would apply this
in the way this way that I'm given like more freedom here for
not like binding the consciencesof the people I'm leading.
Like you should believe this over here if it's not clear and
direct in God's word. So that policy example you just

(01:09:46):
mentioned, like to, I think it'sgood to, well, I, I don't think
it's actually good for me to give like some of those specific
policy things like when I'm preaching God's word and I want
people to be able to trust this is coming straight from God's
word. But then that's where I and I,
I, I, I wouldn't say I've got itfigured out.
Like how in a conversation like this, can I maybe even share

(01:10:06):
some of where I would lean toward on policy things without
yeah, without in any way coming across as I think every
Christian should believe exactlythat.
And if you're not, if you don't believe that, then you're not
even a Christian or you're not you don't believe God's word.
Like that's where I think it that the conversation goes there
so quick in our culture. If you don't vote for this
person, if you don't believe, believe this about this policy,

(01:10:28):
how are you even a Christian? Like we just I don't I don't
think those are health healthy ways to have that conversation.
So all that to say, I, man, I'm thankful for times when I and
other leaders in our church, like really held fast to what
God's word says and made it really clear, even when it was
costly. I, for any times where we, we

(01:10:48):
took a step off that and startedto apply it in ways that there
should have been more freedom orjust helpful.
But I, I feel like every time wetry to give a million caveats,
it's still not enough. So it's just so hard to
communicate in this culture. Yeah, there was, you know, a
quote of we're coming to take the church back.
And then it was also, there was also the the issue is that when

(01:11:10):
people disagree, they go to radical extremes, pun intended,
in terms of how they disagree. I remember reading there was a
rumor started that you guys weregoing to sell a building and to
a mosque and just like all kindsof outlandish stuff that again
removed from from it four or five years later, clearly aren't
true. You guys didn't sell a building
to a mosque. How would I guess, what would be

(01:11:34):
your advice to the broader church body and in these
disagreements? And ultimately this stuff was
was done legally. All the lawsuits were dismissed
and a lot of the stuff that was hurled wasn't accurate.
Yeah, I would say one like, don't be surprised like this is
it's opened my eyes in a fresh way.
There's nobody in this book who followed God, Jesus and didn't

(01:12:00):
experience like from Nehemiah toPaul and everywhere in between.
Like don't be surprised. Where did you where did I ever
get the idea that this was goingto be easy.
Like the more you press it and that, and that's where I would
encourage like again, to the extent with which like it's
clear and direct in God's word, like keep pressing in there
knowing it's going to be challenging, knowing you're
going to have things hurled at you.

(01:12:21):
Like, but I mean, I, I spend a lot of time with brothers and
sisters around the world who experience far worse than
anything I've experienced when it comes to attacks.
And so, and they're persevering.Like, yes, this is what we do.
But we at the same time, I do think we have to guard against
the temptation to just kind of shrink back then.

(01:12:41):
OK. So it's a lot easier if you
don't start, if you don't talk about justice, if you just kind
of skirt the whole issue. So it's going to be costly to
talk about justice. So work hard to make sure what
you're saying about justice is you can show like clear and
direct is in God's word. You can stand before God like
I'm leading based on what your word says, but just know it's

(01:13:02):
going to be costly. It's going to be a harder road
to step into some of these issues.
But it's, it's worth it if if you're holding fast to God's
word. So I would, I just, I wrote a
book somewhere in the middle of all this over the last couple
years. Don't hold back.
But the whole idea was like, yeah, don't it?
It'd be easier just to shrink back and not, you know, to avoid

(01:13:27):
some of the criticism of the challenges, but step into and
trust that God's going to be faithful to you in the process.
Amen. You've LED large institutions,
you've preached around the world, endured criticism,
lawsuits, and now this book is about intimacy with God, right?
Full circle moment. Read the Bible.

(01:13:51):
What do you think God is teaching you right now in this
season? Haven't gone through all this.
Man, how do I summarize that? Like I can say and, and, and I
mean, we've talked about trials or challenges on a church level.
Those have been they've paled incomparison to just some more

(01:14:12):
personal family. Yeah, challenges and but God, I
mean the song I just keep singing over again during these
days in my quiet time. He has good plans.
I can trust him. He's my father.
He is good. He's working for my good and and

(01:14:32):
our good and all these things. I I told, I told my wife when
I'm on a date night. I was like, babe, these are
these have been hard days, but I, I, I can truly say I know God
more. I love God more.
I trust God more now than I did four years ago.
And if he's the goal, then thesehave been great days.
And the good news is he's the goal.

(01:14:53):
Like this is. Yeah, he's the goal and he's
sufficient. His word sufficient.
His grace is sufficient, man. Yeah, I again, I could tell so
many other stories about even how God is stretching me
theologically. Like, I'll tell one quick one,
like we we're going through a challenging time in in that

(01:15:17):
season that we were been talkingabout.
And there was one particular moment where it's just like,
yeah, someone physically coming at me.
I won't go into all the details in a way that police were
involved. I was able to remove myself from
that situation. But it was pretty, it was

(01:15:38):
chaotic. It was traumatizing.
Well, the next morning, I'm at this gathering with these
brothers and sisters. Many of them I didn't even know.
And somebody who did know kind of what we were walking through
said, hey, we want to gather around David and Heather, pray
for them. So they start praying and this
sister in Christ on the other side of the room, I didn't even
know who she was at that time. She says after being praying for

(01:16:01):
a while, she says, hey, I don't I don't, I don't know who you
are. I don't know what you're walking
through. But when you walked up, I saw a
picture of something having comeat you like a cannon being shot
towards you and Jesus stepped inthe way and protected you.
But the effect of that is just been traumatizing.
And she said, I just want you toknow.

(01:16:23):
And she starts quoting from Isaiah 59 about how God is your
defender and your protector and your provider and, and I'm just
like bawling like it was. So that that stretches me a
little theologically from where I've been, but.
You're going to become a charismatic with the rest of us,
bro. Words and visions, come on.
So that The thing is, The thing is, I would I would say like

(01:16:45):
throughout this is a whole another conversation about about
theology, but I would say I'm I'm I'm not cessationist like I
believe in, but I'm pretty functionally cessationist.
Like I don't live in. But now, bro I, I would say,
yeah, I'm pressing in more to the Holy Spirit, yeah, than I
ever have in my life. So bro, I, I, I love it.

(01:17:06):
I, yes, it's worth it. Like it's, I'm, I'm a, I'm a
deeper places, better places in my relationship with the Lord
than I've ever been. And I remember 1 time, 1
morning, I was having a quiet time and yeah, just as I'm spend
this time with Lord and I'm justsoaking in his love and the way
he's using these different things for good.

(01:17:27):
And I'm just like, Lord, I wouldlove to experience this without
the trials. But then it hit me like, yeah,
that's that's heaven. It's coming.
One day we're going to have beautiful, perfect intimacy.
No trials. But as long as we're here, it's
actually trials that they get usthere.
And so, so James, right, rejoicein the trial because you know
it's getting you to him. What's your hope for someone who
picks this up? Maybe they've they've felt

(01:17:48):
disconnected with scripture. I hope they experienced like
that's why I put the subtitle what I did intimacy with God
through his word. I want them to experience
delight, joy, what Psalm 1 promises in God's word.
I hope that this is a just a helpful little tool in their
hands that can get them into thetreasure that's found in God's

(01:18:09):
word that can lead them to intimacy with God himself.
That's that's my hope for this little book.
Final question, someone's listening to this and, and they
feel burnt out or disillusioned with the church, perhaps with
some of the things you describe going through, being labeled,
not feeling connected to a body because of some of these social
issues or whatever. They've they've, they've,
they've experienced church hurt,but they still have Jesus.

(01:18:32):
What would you say to them? One, I, I would want to step in
like I, I wouldn't want to say anything without just really
stepping in. Like tell me about the reasons
why, because, yeah, those are real reasons why somebody would
feel hurt, disillusioned. Yeah.
At the same time, I would want to then press in and say the,

(01:18:56):
the body and the bride of Christare worth it.
And you, you actually. So what you've experienced when
it comes to hurt, I, I don't know every circumstance, but
likely what you've experienced when it comes to hurt is not
God's design for his bride and his body.
His Bride and His body are supposed to be a place of
healing for you, for people, a place of redemption, a place of

(01:19:16):
hope, a place of joy and peace. Like this is all that flows from
the fruit of the Spirit of Jesusand His body.
And so don't give up on the Bride, figure out a way to keep
pressing in to find a local church that can be the body and
you can be a part of the body and be that for others.
We none of us can follow Jesus in isolation.

(01:19:37):
We are designed for the body. And just biblically, 114 times
we see ekklesia, the word for church in the New Testament.
Over 90 of those times it's specific local churches like the
whole picture of the Bible is followers of Jesus together in
local bodies that are doing the 59 one another's in scripture
with one another and in the process showing the light of

(01:19:58):
Jesus in a world that desperately needs when only he
can give. That's that's worth it.
So let's work through the herd and the challenges to get to the
healing that God's designed for you in the body of Christ, not
apart from it. Amen.
David Platt, ladies and gentlemen, appreciate you, man.
This is great. Hopefully we have you back some
time. Man, good luck to you.
Like, May God bless your stewardship of this technology,

(01:20:22):
the yeah, the platform he's entrusted to you in ways that
build up the body of Christ and spread the gospel around the
world in this unique time and place we're in.
May God bless you toward that end, bro.
Appreciate you. Hi, guys.
We're out of here. Hey, thank you so much for
checking out the video. Please be sure to comment below
and subscribe and all that good stuff.
And check out this other video that YouTube seems to be

(01:20:43):
recommending just for you. Let me know if they nailed it.
All right, I'll see you over there.
Peace.

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