Hulvey on Mental Illness & Fake Christians in the Industry

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I just had a moment just struggling and I was like, am I
having a heart attack? Heart's beating really fast.
I went and the and the guy, the doctor was like listen man, I'm
bro and I have this moment whereI hear the Lord speak to me bro
2 words follow me. And I broke down crying like
weeping. You brought up Sierra last time
we were out here. You the remix with Sierra.
That's right. That just came out and you were

(00:22):
catching quite a big backlash. There's a lot of Christian
artists who are the most unashamed artists on their
platform who don't know God. That's sobering hard to hear.
Some people's icons might not know God.
OK, you, you got that's, that's a very controversial thing you
just said. That's right.
You got to unpack that, Bruce. LON tours going good.

(00:42):
Incredible, bro, yeah. It's dope to see you in bigger
venues it. Feels good.
It's from 300 to more thousand 1500.
Big difference. What's the biggest size on this
tour so far? The Novo, I think the Novo and
the Tabernacle. Tabernacle.
Factory in Dallas, the Tabernacle was like 2300.

(01:02):
We did like 1400 in there, but it felt sold out OK.
It was incredible. What about the Novo?
That one's crazy. It's like 2300.
I think we're looking to post up16117 hundred.
It's going to be sick. Dude, it's dope seeing you just
kind of explode in the past several years because I think we
met or or at least we were around each other and it was a

(01:26):
three C 2019 and is right beforethe pandemic, I think.
And I remember there was talks of Reach got a new artist, Reach
got a new artist, Reach got a new artist.
And I was hanging out with, I think it was, I was, I think it
was with RG and you and Tori Deshawn were performing at the

(01:48):
A3C thing. Yes, it was a it was a Rapzilla,
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Was that that like small
clubhouse? It was, it was not big.
And then I remember turning to RG's like, is that the new
artist? And he was like, yeah.
And I thought it was Tori, whichall props to Tori, 'cause he's
killing it right now. Shot to Indy tribe.
He was like, yeah. And then like, it took me a
while to realize like, Oh no, it's it's Hovey.

(02:11):
And you had had a whole background.
Tell us like how you connected with reach and those like
earlier days of your career? Yeah.
So, you know, First off, thanks for having me, Doug.
And this is overdue. So let's get it, bro.
What people don't know is actually my uncle worked with
Ben Washer at a corporate job way back in the day.

(02:35):
OK, so who's Ben Washer, though?Ben.
Washer is the CEO of Reach Records, so him and Lecrae Co
own it together. He's like the guy behind the
scenes, but he's so crucial to the company, bro.
They work together. And so my uncle knew about, you
know, Reach because Ben had leftthat job to start Reach.
So when I had just got into hip hop, found Lil Wayne, Eminem, my

(02:58):
mom was looking for alternativesfor me to listen to.
You know, she kind of freaked out a little bit about it.
So my uncle was like, yo, he should listen to Lecrae.
So when I heard Lecrae, I heard Jesus music, all of that, I was
glued. And so that was actually my
first introduction. So I already kind of had not a
connection in a sense, but just there was a different closeness

(03:18):
because my uncle had seen it blossom, you know.
And so Fast forward, bro, freshman year in college, IDM
Dace Harris, the A&R at Reach onTwitter.
Bro, at the time it was Twitter and I and I said, yo, here's
some demos because he was looking for demos for artists to
send. And in those demos were also
beats that I made. He loved the beats, I think even

(03:40):
more than the actual music, because the beats.
Was on super soul on your Kanye.Yeah, it was super soul, but it
had that like, South Georgia sound to it and he loved it.
What year is this? This is 2017.
OK Fall. Yeah.
And he he heard it and loved it in a you know, and saw
potential. How long have you been doing
music at that point? Bro, I've been rapping since I

(04:00):
was 11, but I was making music at like 15, bro.
OK, Yeah. So how old are you in 2017?
I don't. Know 2017 I was 18 OK.
So you're rapping since you're 11, putting out music on on what
just like SoundCloud, SoundCloudstuff.
OK. And then 2017 is when you
connect with Reach and when was your first like major release?

(04:20):
Was it around that 20/20/2019 window?
First major release was 2019 summer playlist with reach song
called Motions. That was my first one, yeah.
I, I just think it's beautiful that even from your first major
release to now, right 2015, excuse me, 2025 where it's six
years removed and now you're doing bigger venues and 1000 + a

(04:44):
night. And it, it, it's, it's, it's
amazing. But that was a six year grind.
Even working with a label that'sright.
And people today think it's justsupposed to happen overnight
away, right? Like God told me to to do this.
Ministry. God told me I'm a blow up God.
Told me I'm a blow up. God told me start YouTube.
God told me start pie. So I'm quit my job and I'm doing

(05:05):
it, and that's not how it's. Worked for No.
I was broke for a couple of years.
Sign to reach. And that's just being real.
You know, I, I started out with a $5000 advance.
I lived on that for six years. I mean, sorry, six years, six
months they had you. That'd be crazy.
Six years. I lived on that for six months.

(05:27):
I was eating peanut butter and Jelly cookout.
That was it. And I just tried to be faithful
and I was in a studio non-stop to the point where I practically
lived there, bro. I was there all the time.
And so, yeah, bro, it really is a grind.
It is any artist out there, if you're signing a record deal,
don't think it's going to changeovernight.
You know, your work that you putin now is what really dictates

(05:51):
later. So just grind now.
Yeah, that's good. So you have a bit of a
connection, but you're also hitting the ANR.
You guys are chopping it up, you're sending demos.
And then at what point was it like, oh, this, this, this label
that I'm fond of and I'm I'm growing up listening to and
these are my guys. Does it become, hey, we want to

(06:11):
work with you? Yeah, it was, I think about a
year after that, I, I consistently sent Ace Music over
and over and over and over. And he would actually respond,
but there was nothing serious there.
But then I did this one set of studio sessions in Jacksonville,
FL. I sent Ace the records and and
those were the ones that turned the tide for him.

(06:33):
And he was like, yo what? Was let me get you different
about those records. Well, one was like about Jesus
coming back. It was a song called PSA, never
came out anything, but I just rapped with so much urgency,
showcase my diversity in my skill set.
And then the other one was like a very premature song I had
called Wasted Times that did come out, and he heard those.

(06:53):
He just saw a different commercial value, but also I
think a lyrical ability he didn't know I had or you know
what I mean, in a diverse skill set.
And I think it felt reminiscent of NF at the time.
Obviously my music is way different than what it was, but
I think at the time he saw some potential in that type of lane.
And so he was really interested in, he wanted my number.

(07:15):
And then he called me. I was, I was actually working at
my college library and I get a call during my job.
So I'm like picking up the phonelike in the library very
quietly, like, yo, what's up, bro?
He's like, hey, man, like I'd beinterested in building with you,
you know, you know, possibly developing your talent, Yeah,
maybe bringing you to reach, maybe not, you know, but just
kind of throwing it out there. And now it was like the first,

(07:38):
like, real. OK, something's happening.
And yeah. That's dope.
Now your background, you you play ball in high school.
I played soccer. Soccer.
But didn't you also try? I love the basketball team.
Could not make it. I love basketball.
I play. I don't mean you were on the
team. Yeah, I know, but I played a
lot. Yeah.
Yeah, I had talent too, but where I'm from?

(07:58):
So tell me about that 'cause youhave a song where you reference
it and it, it's interesting, 'cause I got cut my sophomore
year and that was the thing thatdrove me to music.
And so I was like, I, I rememberlistening to, I think I was
texting you about it and I was like, well, this is, this is
amazing. Thank you, Perry Lane.
Yes. Yeah, tell me about that.
Yeah, so where I'm from, Brunswick, GA, incredible

(08:19):
basketball players, state championship level high school
teams, even the middle school I went to had one of the middle
school championship I believe like 7 years in a row.
I mean, it was unreal talent andI had talent, but I just wasn't
like raw on defense, you know what I mean?
I wasn't as athletic as the people around me, but I could

(08:39):
play. So I would always be the guy
that was like the next on the list to make it.
Literally, bro. Like almost every year was like
right there. They liked my talent and like,
yeah, we see it, but not. And then in my 11th grade year,
it was the last time I ever tried out.
Scarred me. The head coach actually picked
me to make the team, but the twoassistant coaches vetoed it.

(09:01):
They would do a vote among each other.
He fought for me, but it's like,look like one out of three.
You ain't made the team. And bro, I just ran this, ran
out their music, you know what Imean?
Because that's what I felt like I was really good at.
And I was also good at soccer, you know what I mean?
I had a college scholarship offer, didn't take it, chose
music. But like, you know, that was

(09:23):
hard for me. And I actually, my team went to
the state championship, like thebasketball team that I got cut
from and I made a song for the team.
So it's kind of funny. Full circle.
Yeah, it was like full circle and they loved it, but it was
just, it was funny. Yeah, yeah, the lyrics, one of
the lyrics on a song the the second verse is talking about
the the basketball situation. And you said I just got off the

(09:47):
phone with Cray said I need counseling to dig up why I feel
this pain. I keep assuming everyone around
me feel the way. I guess I'm scared to get cut
just like 11th grade. My dad called me the other day
told me he went to the gym whereI couldn't play.
Coach said congratulations, yourson is truly made it.
Then it hit me, the way they watching every shot I take.
That's right, that's fire. Bro, thank you man.

(10:07):
No thank you. It's.
True. I'm I'm one of those guys that's
like like my favorite records bethe deep cuts.
Yeah, bro, you don't. No, that that one that that
Perry Lane is definitely a fan favorite, and it's a vulnerable
one, too. I mean, that's a true story.
My dad walked in the basketball gym talking to the coach and
he's like, man, see what your son is doing is crazy.
You know, the same guy that cut me and now even the middle

(10:27):
school coach that cut me, bro, is like hanging out with
friends. Like, yeah, man, he used to rap
all the time. You know, it's crazy.
So yeah, I mean, it was is the first verse about that you talk
about going to urgent care because which it sounds like
it's like it's a panic attack. Yeah, like, yeah, OCD anxiety
because I'm like, actually diagnosed with OCD for real.
So it's like I just had a momentof just struggling and I was

(10:50):
like, am I having a heart attack?
Heart's beating really fast. I went and the and the guy, the
doctor was like, listen, man, this used to happen to me in
college. Just relax, man.
Take it easy. Everything's OK.
So yeah, no, that's definitely what that was about.
Yeah, the line I just went to the urgent care scared.
I had a heart attack. My cardiac was Jordan Air.
Yeah, that's a fire bar in in a sense of how it ties into the

(11:11):
second verse of the. Yeah, I mean the.
Basketball to the music. Yeah, no, yeah, they said I'm
perfect. My anxiety killing me.
I had to stop and pray. When did you get diagnosed with
OCD? And and and what was the process
to discover? That about six months ago
because I would constantly like find myself just so like uptight
about any thought that would hitmy brain or like over dissecting

(11:33):
myself and I really got tired ofit.
I'm like I need help. Bro so like obsessive.
Yeah, just obsessive thoughts. Like, Oh my gosh.
Because when people think OCD, they think like.
Cleaning. Yeah, yeah.
Tinkering and it's not. Cleaning, I could be better at
cleaning. I'm not, you know, but for me it
was like that mental battle of constant like obsessive thoughts
and worry and and also OCD is very ritualistic.

(11:55):
Like you feel like you got to dosomething to like make up for
your OCD. So it's all of that.
And so I went to a really good psychologist and within 30
seconds he said you have OCDI was like, oh, shoot.
And it really helped me bro. And.
What does that? What does that mean?
Like how could he tell that? And what does that mean to
someone that doesn't know anything about?

(12:15):
OCD. Yeah, basically he could tell
because of the worry that I had of thoughts that would hit my
brain the moment I started talking and telling him like, Oh
yeah, I hated that these thoughts would enter my brain.
He's like, yeah, that's OCD. Like when you have like panic
over thoughts that hit your mind, that is very evident of

(12:37):
somebody that would have OCD. I'm not saying everyone would
that happens to anyone, but whenit's constant OCD.
And by panic you mean like a? Freak out.
You're like, Oh my gosh, yeah, in a sense, yeah, you, you feel
it. But also you're just like
extremely distressed and worriedlike, Oh my gosh, that's not who
I am. I'd never do that or I'd never
like. Any thoughts that hit your brain

(12:57):
that you don't like when they make you feel like you're
tormented could be OCD. And I'm not one that's so stuck
to the idea that you always haveit.
I'm just getting that like whereI'm at right now, I'm trying to
grow with it. And so, well, it helped me
identifying like, oh, OK, this is what the world says it is.
I got a believer this this guy is giving me spirit filled

(13:20):
advice and he still understands the science behind it.
I felt like after that moment, bro, I was able to grow because
then my wife was helping me out.I'm reading the book.
You know what I mean? It's just it helped me so.
You said that with OCD there aretimes where a thought in in
feeling bad about a thought wouldn't cause different
rituals. It it could, but more so like

(13:42):
it'll just make you panic and and overthink about it.
So like you, you keep feeling like you have to revisit it.
You know what I mean? That's ritualistic.
You got to keep coming back to it.
But some people are like, Oh no,that I locked the door.
I got to go back to the door andre lock it.
I, I do that too, you know what I mean?
So that would be ritualistic or Oh no, I got to make this
basketball shot to make sure that, to make sure that that

(14:06):
wasn't me. Like it's that type of stuff,
stupid, like thoughts in your brain that you can't reason, you
know and. What was?
What has treatment and healing look like for you in that?
Area treatment and healing bro. Very clearly for me, it's been
talking out loud to God. Very it really helps.
Don't keep it in your brain. You get it out loud reading
books or reading things about it.

(14:27):
And then for me, what's really helped me is talking to my wife
because she doesn't have OCD. And so she like Jesus says if
you don't have it in your eye, you can help somebody take it
out of theirs. And so she actually can see me
and be like, oh not Chris, you're good.
Let me pray for you or you know what I mean, like just very
simple wisdom and advice. So for me, it's those things,
talking to the Lord and having my wife there with me, and His

(14:51):
word, bro, because His word applies to it.
Don't worry about anything, but pray about everything and give
thanks and He will give you peace that surpasses all
understanding. That's a promise.
So if it's a promise that He'll give me peace, even if I have
OCD, still applies and I can pray with Thanksgiving and I
will have peace. And it works every time, bro.

(15:13):
In the midst of my weakness, Hisstrength shines because of that
verse. Yeah.
Was it frustrating living with OCD for so much of your life,
not knowing that you had it? Yeah, for sure.
It was very frustrating. Made me just super.
I don't know. It took me out the game a lot.
I'll be in a studio wondering like, why can't I just record

(15:34):
this one take and keep it? It would sound amazing, bro.
A vocal take would sound amazingwhen I record it, and it would
be like, I didn't think about God whenever I recorded that.
I need to record it again. So I didn't say Holy Spirit
speak through me. I need to record it again.
It would be like that. And sometimes God would use that
to keep me focused on him, but other times I found that it was

(15:56):
unhealthy and it was ritualistic.
You know what I mean? So that was really hard for me
until I realized, oh, this is just the weakness that I carry.
God's going to use it for his glory.
Like it helps me stay intentional.
Actually, the counselor told me,Chris, this is going to keep you
from becoming a narcissist. You're going to, you are going
to be so humbled by this every day.

(16:16):
It'll remind you who you are every single day that you need
him, that you're weak. And I needed to hear that, bro.
And it was encouraging to me. This is going to prevent you
from becoming somebody you don'twant to be because it's going to
make you rely on God. So that's good bro.
Ongoing counseling or? I went that one time.
I went, I went that one time. And I don't say that that people
shouldn't keep going, but for meit was like remedy because he

(16:38):
was like, look, you can come again.
But the way it was set up is he's like, I want you to read
this. You know what I mean?
I want you to do these things. So it was more like he wanted me
to go and like practice because I'd already been reading on it
before I even went to him. But he he was just confirmation.
But bro, when I tell you, it's been leaps and bounds, bro.
Just in the last six months. Yes bro leaps and bounds like if

(16:59):
if I struggled at 100%. I feel like I'm at 50 right now.
I mean that that's awesome. I think I'm always going to be
weak, so I can't take that away,but I can rely on him to have
the mind of Christ. I'm in the midst of it.
So yeah, bro, that's where I'm at.
And that's a praise report. Like that's a testimony.
Because anybody out there that struggles with it, that maybe

(17:20):
doesn't know they have it, they probably feel so tormented, so
confused, so angry at themselves.
But you don't have to carry thatweight.
Jesus already did. And so, yeah, I live in that
reality now. Yeah, it reminds me of the
passage from 2nd Corinthians 12.Verse nine and seven says when I
am weak then I am strong, that there's something about being

(17:40):
being broken. I never knew it was written that
way. When I am weak then I am strong.
So it's like until I get to the point of weakness, I'm not
strong. Yeah, I mean, if you think about
the entire Christian worldview, it's contingent on dying to
self, on being weak, on going low with Jesus and then rising
with Jesus. The idea of baptism is you're
dying and rising, right? So everything about the, the,

(18:04):
the carry your cross. It's a torture instrument, you
know, And so you die to be reborn, to die like Christ, to
be born again, you know, that's.And so do you think we choose to
be weak? In a sense, almost.
That's a great question. I think, I think when we're
front faced with the reality of who we really are, right, you,
you have it in a, in a, in an actual condition, if you will.

(18:27):
But I think anyone that takes a sober approach to like, hey,
here the area is, I know I'm sinning against God.
Here are the areas I know I should be doing something that I
don't do the thing I should be doing.
Here are my thoughts. Here are my words, here are my
motivations for the good things I do.
I think anyone that's really confronted with that reality of
who they really are is usually broken down and then God can

(18:49):
rebuild them. You know, then that's, that's
the path of the cross, That's the path of Jesus.
You know, it's like you, you're broken down so that you could be
made new for his his purpose. Beautiful bro, Yeah.
So I, I, I, I don't know if you would choose or I don't know how
it works in the grand scheme of things, but I do think there's
something beautiful to saying. I don't have it all together,

(19:09):
you know. Like acknowledging it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 'cause that's it.
Does it really does work? Yeah.
Yeah. And in your case, I mean, you,
you have seen tremendous success.
Oh, my God. And from an external standpoint,
people would look and be like, yo, Hobie's killing in every,
you know, bigger shows, bigger this, bigger numbers, bigger
collabs. Yet all along you're still
dealing with real things. And yeah, like your counselors

(19:31):
point like this is what keeps you anchored and and keeps you
from. Becoming a gosh, yes, bro keeps
me on a stage praying. Yeah.
Holy Spirit, yeah, I need you right now.
Yeah, Yeah, I need you. Yeah, They have to feel you
right now because I'm so weak. Like that is me on a stage
constantly, bro. And for some reason, man, like
you said, he just moves. He moves from that place, man.

(19:52):
I want to stay there, honestly. Yeah, that's not what I think.
I think was was so refreshing about you is there's a purity to
your spirit and a purity to yourmusic And I even think
providentially, and I'm not likethe biggest.
Calvinist guy. But I would say providentially,
like when you arrived at Reach, I know Craig fairly well and I
know Ben and they were going through a lot of transition and

(20:14):
a lot of turmoil and a lot of artists coming and going and a
lot of issues. And a lot of what Lecrae was
personally going through was hisown journey and his own
deconstruction, which he's been transparent about.
But it was this desire of like, hey, 116 unashamed, this is what
blew you guys up. And it seems like there's a
drift from that. And right as people were kind of

(20:36):
what's going on over there, likeHovie gets there, you know, and
you kind of brought, I would saysome of that initial, not to say
the other artist didn't. This isn't shade on anybody else
over there, but I'll say you kind of brought some of that
initial purity that I think people fell in love with Reach
as a movement for. Yeah, I mean, that's what I was
inspired by. I've been listening for a long
time. That's that's what moved me and

(21:00):
helped him be attached to reach.So I felt like conviction to go
in there and stay on that, you know what I mean?
And bro, like people back home like, but it was like prophecy
on my life, bro, like I'm like going to, I remember I went to
this prophecy session. I'm from a conservative Baptist
Church, by the way, but my mentor took me to a charismatic

(21:21):
session and the people are like,yo, like you're going to like
tap into the sounds of heaven. I'm like, what are they talking
about? This is crazy.
You know, God gave me a revelation for my first project.
And I felt like that's what started happening.
I was experiencing heaven as I was making songs and I wanted to
bring that in, bro. And, and at no cost was I going

(21:42):
to let that go. I can't.
I can't. Do you feel like there was a
time or is a time where Christian hip hop kind of went
to the other extreme, right, Because I think when I initially
got exposed to it, like, and andespecially at that peak era that
I would say that 22,007 to like 2013, 2014 as things really

(22:05):
exploded. Incredible.
It was it was dope. And it was like this renaissance
movement. And then seen like what came
after was folks that kind of like wanted to be mainstream
artists wanted to make mainstream music that just was
clean and not overtly Christian,right.
And, and some of that overcorrected to that extent, I
would say yes. How has that been like for you?

(22:25):
And, and paying attention to theto the genre as a whole.
This the genre that you're a fanof, but now you're kind of one
of the figureheads up. Yeah.
I mean, I do always reminisce onwhat it was before I came into
it, gives me an understanding ofwhat it is now.
So to your first question, do I think that there was an extreme

(22:46):
switch? Yes, I do.
I think some of it was for good.I think some of it, some of it
actually helped all of the new artists.
Now see, hey, be careful of getting attracted to the world
before you have your identity set because.
Because for some guys, I think there was a righteous mission in

(23:09):
that. And so I can't take that away.
Like dream junkies, I felt like y'all, when you listen to the
music, it was an authentic expression that was not
Christianese. It was just y'all and it could
translate two other audiences. But yeah, there was a sense of
rudeness when I would hear the lyrics from all three of y'all.
So you get what I'm saying. Like, I got to pay homage to the

(23:32):
fact that dudes did love Jesus. It just had a different taste
and flair. Now, like Lecrae said, he's
like, man, I've tasted that, theheights, and it just didn't work
for me. I think that's where we have to
see the warning signs where it'slike, hey, when your spirit is
now being asked to trade teams, there's a problem.

(23:52):
That's good if. We're going Luka Doncic and this
Mavs, the Lakers, like there's an issue.
There's an issue bro. That's good.
There's an issue it you cannot trade teams and I think
sometimes we we we we're too loose with it yeah bro, to live
is Christ, bro. To die is gain.
If that is not it, yeah, we are not on his team.

(24:14):
I mean, maybe that's too bold tosay, but I think if we're I'm
going to be on this team, it's like, bro, God will let you have
that, but bro, that ain't that ain't his destiny.
And that's hard to to to grapplewith.
I'm not saying you can't even gofully into mainstream and do the
whole thing, but you better be full of the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, that's good. You know what I mean?
What do you make of some of the artists that are, I guess we

(24:36):
would call, I don't know how to how to how else to call it like
like Christian secular artist, aChristian mainstream artist.
So I think of like my guy Nick DI think of I think of Jake, you
know, JVKE, of course, I think of quite a few people that are
Paul Russell now, you know, thatare have some roots within
Christian hip hop or Christian Christian music, probably less

(24:57):
Jake, But and now they're they're full on crossover
mainstream artists. We're predominantly non
Christian audiences. Yeah, I would say those three
specific examples, all three of them basically had the same
message to me before they ever crossed into mainstream.
The only difference was that their songs got bigger.

(25:18):
I feel like they always, Paul Russell always had his vibe and
his message to me from what I'veheard.
Maybe a little different, but nothing.
I was like, so crazy. Nick D, same thing.
I think his music was what it was and still is.
And Jake, same thing. So I, I think it's always been
that way. So I think they're different.
I think it's different if a guy,if I was to tomorrow completely

(25:44):
switch, I think people would be confused.
Yeah, like like if you went from.
What I'm on right now. To like a positive love song.
I think people would be so perplexed bro.
Like, I think it wouldn't even make sense.
So yeah, I think more of what mything is is like infiltrating.
If I'm infiltrating the mainstream, I'm just doing it

(26:05):
because God threw me in there. It's not because it's, it's not
because that's who I am. It's because I'm his son and he
can throw his sons wherever he wants to reach people at.
So that was how it was Rolling Loud.
I mean, in my performance was anything different than what it
is? No, it was just that we were at
Rolling Loud and they experienced him.

(26:26):
Could it be a different approach?
Sometimes, yeah. Yes, Yeah, Yeah.
I mean, yeah, yes. Your your performance of role in
that was the same thing I saw you do at a Christian event that
me and my son went to in San Diego.
Same thing. Same thing.
Yeah, that's good. I think all of us, every artist
that did it, they just who what they were, who they were.
Yeah, yeah. I think there's something cool
about the time that we're in where the Internet has made the

(26:47):
world smaller. And so you can end up on
anyone's algorithm just randomly.
And so like the the idea of making explicitly and
unapologetically Christian musicthat's very good because we're
not going to take away from the quality of it and then ends up
on a non Christian's feed is really high.

(27:09):
It's happening all the time now.Yeah, and that there seems to be
a, my buddy Gavin Ortin calls ita vibe shift.
Like there seems to be somethingthat's shifting in the air where
people are. Maybe they're not overtly like
waving the flag of Jesus, but I think I read a study recently I
said 46% of Gen. Z said they're Jesus.
Curious. You know which is Which is

(27:31):
phenomenal if you. Really think about it.
You know, and so you're seeing church attendance rise back up
to pre pandemic levels, just seeing a shift.
And so then when they see Hovey or they see Dill or they see
Forrest Frank, they see these things pop up on their feet and
it's like, hey, I'm unapologetically Christian and I
love Jesus. And the music reflects that.
I don't think it's as jarring asit was Once Upon I.

(27:51):
Don't think so either. I think too probably just
because music was beating the same drum, especially in hip hop
for like way too long. From like maybe 2017 to 25 it
got a little old, you know what I mean?
The SoundCloud rap era was amazing, but that sound
specifically has gotten a littleplayed out.

(28:13):
Lyrics got played out. I think people really are just
hungry for something else, honestly.
I've always felt like and you tell me how you feel about this.
This is might be controversial. I'm here for it.
I felt like as a Christian who made hip hop, I always had to be
more intentional and more serious because it was similar
to being a white dude in hip hopbecause I don't naturally fit in

(28:39):
the space, especially back when I was making.
You're a guest in the culture. I'm a guest to an extent, so
like, I have to go above and beyond to be excellent or I'm
going to get laughed out of the room for being white.
And then when I became a Christian is the same thing.
I'm going to get laughed out of room for being Christian.
So to me, the idea that like Christian music and especially
hip hop should be better, like it has to be better, or at the

(29:01):
very least at the same level. I think to even get in a room,
it's got to be better or, or on the same level.
I I would agree it can't becauseyou're already offering a
message that is completely counter what it is.
So it's like, yeah, bro, I thinkthe music's got to be insane.
I think that's why Lecrae stepped in the door the way he

(29:22):
did, because he has some songs that really did not feel like
what people is used to. And so they were like, boom, OK,
you're invited for good reason. Great music.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you.
And I think one step change, like the with the perception
changed similar to once Eminem came through and was like, oh,
like, no, like all rappers aren't Vanilla Ice and all

(29:43):
rappers aren't wack is in the same way that like once Lecrae
broke through and then others broke through, it was like all
all Christian rappers ain't wack.
Like there's actually like, because I remember for a while
there was you would hear even mainstream folks say like, yeah,
I already like Christian music, but like, Lecrae is dope, right?
And that one thing, like Lecrae is dope.
And then it was like Lecrae and Andy.
And then now it's like a bunch. Of a sea of people, a sea of

(30:04):
people. There is no one face.
Yeah. For a long time, I felt like a
lot of our peers were searching for who's the next Lecrae.
I think that's out the window right now.
It's not even the same thing. God's doing something new.
It's not who's the next Lecrae. It's like, Nah, we an army and
we all got different weapons, Weall got different talents.
Some of us are great in the bunker, some of us are great

(30:25):
snipers, some of us are great inthe front lines.
We all, we all play a role. But I feel like it's not what it
was because hip hop has changed.I think back in 2014, as a
culture, you had the Big three, you had Kendrick, Cole, Drake.
People still try to create the Big Three narrative now, but
when you look Playboy, Carti, Travis, it's so.

(30:46):
So different. So it's different.
Fans are like coming in in niches now.
So it's like we could have 10 CHH artists, which is literally
happening right now, go crazy and I'll have a different fan
base. Like literally different fan
base, bro. When people come to my shows,
the base is not, it's not what Isaw back when I went on
Unashamed. It's a different fan base,
literally, which is amazing thatthere's more people being

(31:09):
reached. So yeah, bro, it's, it's a
different game now, bro. No, you're right.
And I think it's a, a byproduct that was just like the Internet
and things like TikTok and Instagram, which often times get
demonized, but they don't really.
People don't consider how much of A outreach opportunity
utility it is marketing asset itis to be able to be somewhere

(31:29):
where now not only is distribution consolidated to
Spotify and iTunes or whatever, right?
Because because you don't even got to buy.
You could you already have the subscription, but now the, the
audience is all kind of all on acouple apps.
And if you could get to the audience creatively, you can
disrupt. Instagram, some reels started
going crazy like 3 years ago andnow look, I mean bro, just on

(31:53):
there alone you see careers made, you see careers made just
by dudes like force, you know what I mean?
Going in there and just Caleb Gordon going in there and being
consistent and being themselves and doing it a lot.
People are touched man. So yeah, not for sure.
Yeah. I feel like one of the things
you you've done a good job at islike strategic collaborations.

(32:15):
Oh yeah, yeah. Obviously you've had the big
records with Lecrae KB, but you had a two big records with with
Forest, right As Forest was kindof taken off.
And then you've continued to do like strategic collaboration.
Yeah, at one point in time, it wasn't like this in hip hop and
in Christian hip hop, like therewas a lot of there was a lot of
back door bickering. A lot of like people appeared to

(32:36):
be cool but didn't really want to collaborate.
It was kind of elitist. And now it seems like everyone's
collaborating. How?
How intentional was that for you?
Well, I I can't fully say it wasintentional lot for it because
when Forrest reached out, he found my music.
He hadn't done a Christian song yet and we.
Had that kind of Sunday's best record.
That was kind. Of Sunday Best.

(32:57):
Yeah, yeah, I was like services but for forest Frank.
He hadn't even done a forest Frank record yet.
He had his forest page but bro like he just sent me no longer
bound and it was we connected and we clicked.
And I didn't know that was his first solo Forest Frank.
You saying this is first solo Forest Frank record or his?
First solo Forest Frank. Christian Record.
I think he had a couple, but like he really like buckled down

(33:19):
on it and went for it. So I was honored to be a part of
that. So we went on a little run
together, man, and it was a blessing.
And definitely I'm sure more will be on the way.
But that was just a God thing, bro.
And then right after no longer bound was Walk with Lecrae, you
know what I mean? And then we had love like that
later in the year with me, Tori Deshawn, Alex Jean.
I think now collaboration has tohappen, bro.

(33:40):
And I do feel like actually whatI see is that even when people
have differences, they're still collaborating.
Now I will say I'm seeing that and I love that.
Or it's like, no, this is just the right thing to do.
We might not agree on everything, but what, We're not
going to make a song that's stupid.
Like, you know, I get that timesare different now too.
Like back in the day, dudes weremore concerned about theological
similarities. But now I think people feel the

(34:02):
burden of like, we still need tohave peace regardless of our
differences. So they're both beneficial.
Yeah, I mean, I, I would say it's like understanding the
opportunity to outreach and evangelize versus to have
internal dialogue on differences.
Like I think both are important,but I think you, you can't
ignore the opportunity in terms of outreach and evangelize right
now because it's, it's like there's a, there's, there's like

(34:25):
strike when the iron's hot. Like we, this may not happen in
20 years, in 10. Years you got to shoot sometimes
it's a month window bro. I remember Forrest, actually,
when No Longer Bound happened, Iwas searching for more records
that I was going to put out. He said, listen, bro, he kept it
very honest when he said, bro, the next song you release needs
to be a hit. He was very blunt with me.

(34:47):
Forrest has been very blunt about his approach on how he
sees things. He's like, listen, your next
song needs to be a hit, needs tobe a great song.
So when I was sending him a song, he's like, this ain't it,
this ain't it, this ain't it. And he got to a point where it's
like, Dang, OK, I really got to fight for this.
Send him altar. He was like, yeah, bro.
And he's like, I'd love to hop on it.
I'm like bet. And So what I'm getting at is we

(35:07):
should be intentional, bro. We should be like, yo, how do we
make great songs? There ain't nothing wrong with
having hits. Ain't nothing wrong with it.
For a minute, I think people felt like, even myself, am I
following God if I make hits? It's like, no, bro, people
actually feel like they can access the song a little better
when they can sing along to it. And it's something accessible.
Yeah, even me included. Like when I listen to music, I

(35:28):
love deep cuts. But also, and the artist has hit
records. It draws me in.
So yeah, bro, the window is tight and I think we got to you
got to strike when the iron's hot for sure.
Yeah, I, I, I, I wonder if musicgoes the direction of what's
happening with content. YouTube content where a lot of
streamers, a lot of Youtubers. What I loved about transitioning

(35:52):
to YouTube was how willing people were and are to
collaborate versus when I was doing music, it was like very
cutthroat. I get from the era I come from
was very different. It's very cutthroat.
There's a lot of fighting, there's a lot of, you know,
bickering and I get to YouTube and I'm like, oh man, like this
is totally different. Like everyone is welcoming.
Everyone's welcoming. What even people who disagree

(36:14):
theologically or pull up, they, they pull up.
And so I, I, I see now music going that direction and
specifically hip hop. And oddly enough, we see the the
genre as a as a whole rising, you know?
It's like, wow, you would have never thought, you know, we're
Better Together. You know what I mean?
It's crazy, Yeah. Yeah, tell me a bit more about
how what came first for you? Faith in Jesus or music?

(36:37):
It's tricky for me. Here's here's why I say that.
I grew up in church. I'm four years old.
I said the sinner's prayer. So faith came first.
But I actually think when I lookat the fruit of my life, I think
of music technically came first if we're going on fruit.
So like 11 years old fell in love with music, but 16 years
old really fell in love with theLord, you know what I mean?

(37:00):
So I think music came first and.What what what got you into hip
hop music specifically? Bro it was just a culture of
Brunswick man. I'm around so many at school.
I'm around so many people that just listen to Lil Wayne.
Lil Wayne at Time was like the biggest thing for us, yeah.
So you grew up in a Christian household and then you have an
encounter. I heard KJ 5 too.

(37:22):
OK, you know, yeah. Yeah, shout out to KJ.
Yeah, you have a kind of a moment of faith moment at four.
Yeah. And then?
Definitely a real moment for sure.
And then you're you're in publicschool.
Sounds like doing sports and theentire community year round is
into Lil Wayne hip. Hop.
Yeah, yeah. But specifically Wayne, because
he was just like the icon at thetime.

(37:44):
Yeah. Like Drake was still coming up,
but Wayne had the culture. So that's all I was hearing
about. And Eminem, too.
So when I heard that stuff, I fell in love with it.
I was like, yeah, bro, this resonates with me.
So, so. So at the time, you know, Lecrae
did fill a gap for me at that time too, because he came in
with music that I felt like lived up to part of what I was
hearing. And I fell in love.

(38:05):
I was freestyling, bro. I was battle rapping.
My record must have been 103, bro.
I was battle battling everybody bro.
Like freestyle off the top or like.
Yeah, straight off the top bro in the locker room just making
fun of dudes having fun yeah andI started getting close to the
lure and my my freestyles weren't the same.
You know what I mean? Because I I wasn't saying the
same stuff. I my heart was changed bro.

(38:27):
I couldn't even just even simplymaking fun of people was
different for me. Like it couldn't just didn't
feel the same so. Yeah, that's fire.
And what was it at 16 would you say, that solidified you and the
Lord? Bro, I think that's the most
important thing I could even share Bros.
I went on a mission trip to Memphis, TN and on that trip I

(38:49):
saw a man with six infused vertebrae in his back.
On the first day of the trip, before the actual mission trip
even started at the hotel, a manwith six infused vertebrae in
his back healed right in front of me, bro.
And I was like, OK, this is interesting.
I grew up in church, never saw this one time.
And my mentor actually was the one leading the trip.

(39:10):
He disciples me now. His name is Doug.
And Doug LED us all to lay our hands on the guy and he's
healed. And this is one of those tall,
like Texas stoic type of guys who would not lie like a older
man who's like is literally healed.
They were so impacted. Him and his wife gave us $100
because they didn't know what todo.
They're like he's healed. On the same trip, we're at a gas

(39:32):
station in Memphis, TN and saw awoman demon possessed, healed.
OK this is getting interesting. Doug laid his hands on her.
She's freaking out. She's feeling like a burn
feeling sensation and demons arecasted out of her.
That was interesting for me bro,growing up in Southeast Baptist
world because you read these things in the Bible but then

(39:53):
when you see it you're like OK this is real.
I say all that to say this, bro,when we get to the bunk room at
the mission house near the end of the week, it's me and Doug.
I'm sitting in there and I'm thinking about my life and I'm
struggling thinking, just feeling feelings of shame,
feelings of condemnation, just thinking back as as a child and

(40:14):
bro. And I have this moment where I
hear the Lord speak to me, bro 2words follow me.
And I broke down crying like weeping because I felt the peace
I was searching for my whole life and bro.
After that I mean everything changed bro.
I'm not saying I was perfect or anything like that but I came to

(40:35):
know God. John 17 three for this is
eternal life that you would knowGod and Jesus Christ and he has
sent. That verse was huge for me bro
because my whole life I knew about God and a lot of people I
knew knew about God and they were very smart and very well
versed in the Bible. But it's different when you
experience them. And I'm not saying experiencing

(40:57):
him means you're following him. That just means he's inviting
you. But that experience Jarred me to
follow him, bro. Because I came face to face with
the King of Kings, bro. I came face to face with the
real Jesus, bro. You know I'm experiencing him in
a way I haven't felt before. I'm crying for an hour full of
peace in my heart. Went after him, bro.
I started trying to pray for healing for people at my job at

(41:19):
winn-dixie, at a grocery store, because I was so excited.
I bro, I started walking with him and getting to know him and
that was the change. And literally my son is named
Memphis because of that. Trip Oh, that's fire yeah, bro,
that's fire so it sounds like you had a biblical understanding
of the God I'm. Sure, I had a heart for God, I
would say. Yeah, but but it was the
experience side. Of Jesus.

(41:41):
That that would you say when youwent from being believer to
disciple? Yes, right there.
Yeah. I would say I was a believer.
Whatever that means in terms of eternity.
I don't know. Disciple.
Yeah, it became a disciple. Started actually getting
discipled too by that Doug guy. Yeah.
And how long has that been since?

(42:02):
2016, yeah, 2016 So 9 years. Wow.
That's awesome. In terms of where you see things
going, do you, do you think in that way or are you just kind of
a man? I'm here in the moment and and
whatever God wants to do, like like how do you approach?

(42:22):
I try to think. I really try to think there and
I can't get there. I feel like I can't seem to even
know what it's going to be. I do know.
I do know what he's called me to, and that's to be his
missionary bro to the four corners of the Earth.
That's the call of my life. So that's always going to be the
DNA of what I run to my bro. I don't even know what it looks

(42:43):
like, but I do know even me and my team have been feeling this,
that something's brewing, bro. And I'm not trying to be like
ultra, ultra prophetic here, butI'm being for realized
something's brewing and I just want to steward it for what it
is at these shows, man. I'm seeing what I'm seeing.
I'm like, all right, I got to lock in.
This is important. And sometimes I even think like

(43:05):
the creative writer's block means something so special could
happen soon. Because I'm like, I don't know
exactly what my, all my next music is going to be, but I feel
something brewing in my spirit. I don't even know how to
contextualize it yet. And it's, it's time to search
and find that out. But I'm here for it bro.
Yeah. Tell me a bit about when you

(43:25):
were going back to Lil Wayne. Come on, You were a Christian,
but you're listening to Lil Wayne.
Yeah. And a lot of people would
wrestle with that. Yeah.
Help me understand how you navigate that.
Or was it because you weren't like super you were believing
not a disciple yet that you you were?
Listening so influenced, OK. So tell me about that.

(43:45):
Yeah, I mean, the reason why I would listen to him and still
say I love God too is because I was just conflicted and
influenced by guys around me that I wanted to look cool
around, but not only look cool. I actually felt cool hearing 6
Foot 7 foot and hearing She Willthose songs.
Unfortunately I love the songs, so I couldn't get around that

(44:07):
part. So yeah, that was just where I
was. I was just influenced man, like
I. Influenced by the environment or
by the music. Both.
Both, OK. Both.
Yeah. No, I wasn't seeing dudes
drinking or popping pills aroundme.
I'm just with my friends in the neighborhood.
It's more so like, yeah, I just the vibe set.
We're playing backyard football.The songs on it just hit.
Yeah, you know what I mean. For sure, for sure.

(44:29):
It's interesting because I, I feel like today, thanks to what
you're doing and, and, and, and what indie tribe is doing and
what, there's so much good musicout there, right?
Like there's so much good music out there, but incredible.
There was a time where it wasn'tlike that yet, or you had to
really dig to find. Good, bro.
When I heard church clothes I'veI was jubilant.
I was like, Oh my gosh, finally.I actually remember being like,

(44:53):
yo, Lecrae made something that sounds like Lil Wayne because he
did church clothes actually got some Lil Wayne vibes to it.
I was, Oh my gosh, I found something that can replace Wayne
or that's living up to it. Let's go.
That's how I felt, bro. And so, yeah, now I think people
are so dope that it's original. You can't even compare it.
I feel like my music's gotten inthat space for myself where I

(45:15):
don't even think it sounds like other stuff is just my music,
you know? No big deal is like that.
It's his music. Yeah, that's good.
I can't compare. It it is, there is a refreshing
amount of originality, which I think, which I think is super,
super dope. And again, I just like that
there's different pockets now because it's I don't know if
we'll ever have a ubiquitous moment like that.
You know what I mean? Like like this is what I'm
saying. Like if you think about hip hop,

(45:35):
like Lil Wayne was like a everyone was talking about that.
Everyone. Everyone was.
Even non rap fans knew Lil Wayne.
And then, you know, I would say,you know, you had Drake.
I think the closest we got to that recently would be like the
Kendrick, not like us movement, you know what I mean?
Not movement moment where it waslike everyone was talking about
this one thing, but even that there's still a pocket of

(45:58):
people, right, and there's stilla it's not as like everybody is
talking about it all at the sametime.
Like I think Wayne, he was everywhere.
He was a he was a mega. Star T-shirts in the mall, bro.
Yeah, it's, it's wild. So here's the, here's the, the,
the flip side of that is like there I, I would say even with a
Kendrick, there's a, there's still some sort of redemptive

(46:21):
quality in his music. Yes, yeah.
And even though I think some of his ideology and his worldview
and Eckhart Tolle influence and the Christ consciousness is very
dangerous, extremely, yeah, there's still a degree of like,
redemption. What, Wayne?
It was just sex, drugs, murder, hedonism, weed, weed, weed,
weed. Like, it was crazy.

(46:42):
The amount of just complete debauchery in in, in his music,
for sure, 'cause I 'cause I 'cause I come from a climate.
Like before Wayne, it was like Kanye, you know, like, and Kanye
had a degree of redemptive quality and it was redemptive
art college. Dropout was definitely
redemptive. Late registration and then and
then Wayne just took the world by storm.
And it was like, man, this is dark like this really dark.

(47:04):
Because I was I was a Christian walking with Jesus at that
point. So I was cool on kind of
stepping out of the Lil Wayne era.
Like I would listen to the singles.
I think I listened through through the Carter once or
twice. I've heard all the albums, but
that wasn't my soundtrack. Like I was like, well, I was
married at the time. I was 23 married.
I'm like this this. This does not fit your your
world or experience. Yeah.
And so I, I, I wonder hip hop asa whole, like to bring it back

(47:27):
to a macro hip hop conversation.Come on.
I think, I think the issue I'm seeing right now, especially
online, especially in the areas that I frequent, is there's
this, there's this hasty generalization with conflating
certain types of rap music with all rap music.
There's a conflation of inner city drill culture with rap

(47:48):
culture. There's a conflation of gang
culture with black culture. And these things are not
synonymous. They're not one in the.
Same like not. This is a broader thing
happening, but the stuff that gets glorified and promoted is
often the darkest thing. Yeah, bro, you said it best,
bro, is, is, is honestly, to me,it's people's way of

(48:12):
stereotyping, bro. It's people's way of, of trying
to fit people into this box of like, oh, this is who you are.
Oh, you love hip hop. You're a gangster.
It's like, what do you like, payattention to like everything
that has taken place, even if you're not a believer.
Like if you listen back to Kendrick's music, he's telling

(48:33):
you there's a different way. So I'm with you, bro.
It's tons of stereotypes and assumptions on who people are
and honestly racism too. Where people?
We saw it this week where the situation in Frisco, TX I'm not
sure if you've been keeping up with.
It refresh me. Very tragic situation where
there was a confrontation at a track.

(48:55):
Meet in the bleachers. In the bleachers, Yes.
Yeah, Yeah, I do know about. That black kid stabs white kid
and the family sounds like they're believers of the white
kid that passed. We're like, hey, let's not
politicize this. Extending mercy and grace.
Like the way they handled it wasso interesting and it instantly,
it instantly became politicized where it was like one side was

(49:18):
using it to say, we'll see. This is that drill.
This is that rap music. This is that black culture like
and a hyper drill. That's racist.
And the other side was like, Nah, this is self-defense 100%.
If anybody pushes me and puts their hands on me, they're
they're liable to get stabbed. This kid did nothing wrong.
And I was like, like, I haven't seen things this politically

(49:38):
charged and this two people looking at the same situation
and having totally different conclusions of it.
It's because of our timelines, bro.
Yeah, your timeline literally sinks to whatever you're paying
the most attention to. And when you pay attention to
only, I don't know what you callit, Democratic politics and then
Republican politics when that's the only thing you look at.

(50:01):
Or if shoot, if you look at a bunch of rap culture stuff,
that's all you're going to see on your timeline.
I think people probably get pretty influenced and feel like
now everything is politicized because that's all they see on
their timeline is situations being politicized, which is
unfortunate bro. It's, it's unfortunate because I
think what it does is it, it, it, it uses a fringe of a fringe

(50:24):
case and then it indict indicts a whole culture and a whole
group of people for said thing, right?
So it's like you use this thing to say it's no different than
what what with police brutality.I think police brutality and the
lack of consequences was the issue that needed to be
addressed. I don't think we then say all
police officers are racist or most police officers are racist,

(50:47):
right? It's the same thing.
It's like, it's like the, it's like the the spider man meme.
It's like everybody pointing at the same thing and, and, and
saying hey, this and it's like, wait a minute, hold on.
Like we're doing the same thing to each other.
We're hyper generalizing based on a fringe of a fringe case.
Most people are not violent. Anyone that's ever, anyone
that's ever grown up in the hoodwill tell you that it's a very
small percentage of people that do the the majority of the

(51:10):
crime. And the same thing if you go to
West Virginia or the Appalachian.
Mountains. Same thing if all words of
people do large percentage of the crime, you know, and so
people then take these things and they and they use it as an
indictment against a music genreor worse a, a, a race of people
you know, and it's and it's really sad so.
I'm going to have the love of Christ, bro.

(51:30):
Yeah. And that, that, that that's what
it goes back to, right? It's like if you're, if you view
people as image bearers, if you view people as image bearers,
whether they're white, black, Democrat, Republican police,
right, you see them as image bearers first.
You know, we're all susceptible to sin, but to but to then hyper
generalize and say these people do these types of things because

(51:50):
it's intrinsic to their identitymarkers is is so preposterous to
me. It's not.
It's also just not fair to someone's experiences and life
because it's like, yo, I'm saying this about this person,
but I don't know the 18 years oflife they lived and what
happened to them or just who they are, what their experiences

(52:11):
on both sides of the coin of anysituation.
So yeah, bro, it gets a little, it gets sketchy doing that.
So tell me like, like I can, I can share about my experience,
but tell me about like your experiences growing up as a, as
a white dude in hip hop, a predominantly black black genre
and, and what has that been like?
And have you felt welcomed and, and, and what is that
experience? Beyond welcomed.

(52:32):
I am thankful and grateful bro, to even be able to make the
music I make and to be welcome because I I understand the kind
of scars that can come up when awhen a white artist uses black
music and uses influence for their own gain.
And so. But when I look out in the

(52:53):
audience and I see a majority ofa black audience at my shows,
bro, for me, it's like really humbling because I'm like, not,
I feel like I've been invited into sharing the hip hop
culture, but bro, I'm a guess inthis thing, bro.
And I'm thankful. Like, I don't, you know, I just,
I want to be able to put on 2 for artists around me and, and
make people feel like they're genuinely getting the love of

(53:15):
God in my music, bro. Because man, it, it would be
really whack to go and do something and then just do it
all for your own gain. Because then people feel used
and they feel abused, I think. Yeah, bro, I'm grateful.
That's been my experience has been gratefulness.
Like even Lecrae Co signing me and let me in to his world.

(53:35):
That was the start of that. You know what I mean?
Sierra doing a record with me, you know what I mean?
Those things like I'm grateful for that because yeah, bro, I'm
just a guest. Yeah.
You brought up Sierra last time we were out here, the remix with
Sierra, that's right. That just came out and you were
catching quite a big backlash. Huge as as.

(53:57):
As was she. Now that you've had a year
removed from that situation, have you reflected about it?
Do you think some of the backlash was warranted for folks
who didn't know? Hobie put out a remix of Alter
with Sierra, which I thought wasa fire remix by Thank you Bro.
I remember I was with you in thecar.
I was like getting meticulous about the tweaks in the mix.
I was on my own OCD, if you will.

(54:20):
Right. Like what about this?
Is the vocal take different? And but I thought it was a great
remix. And then some people had
concerns, I guess, because she. The low vibrations.
Line, the low vibrations line. That's right, the low vibrations
line. And then just kind of some of
her overall presence on social media and her background.
Yeah, now that you're you're andlow by low vibrations, people

(54:40):
associate that with new age. Yes, they were hearing that and
saying this is new age. That's what they heard.
Yeah, for me, here's my playing hard on the Sierra situation and
hasn't changed too much is bro. When I got on the phone with
her, her heart was I just want to use what I have to give God
glory and to use this as an opportunity to give him praise.

(55:04):
That's what I want to do. And I thought that that was a
very like what's the word like honorable or valiant effort to
be like yo, I want to use all that I've had to give glory and
praise to Jesus right now in my career.
I want to just take a step out and let them know I love Jesus.
For me, I did not feel like I was supposed to go in and over

(55:25):
examine every last thing she's done.
I saw this more as an opportunity not just for
ministry outwards, but for her to have a space to share.
That was like my heart with y'all to remix.
I wanted to give an artist a space to share their faith like
how Jelly Roll did with Brandon Lake.
It's the same thing to me. And so that was my heart and she

(55:46):
still did this day of so excitedabout it and wants to make more
music and just loves the Lord. And so for me, that's my hard on
it bro. I think when people heard the
low vibrations thing, I saw why they got upset because they
heard a term that if you're to put it up against what people
use that term for, it's like what the heck.

(56:06):
People thought it was counter, like, God, what I heard when I
heard that genuinely was a different context.
I heard that as, oh, she's trying to get away from low
vibrations like protect me from this.
I heard it different when I heard it that way.
I didn't hear it as her like Co signing those things.
I heard it like protect me. You protect me from that.

(56:28):
And I heard it as that was her context of how she said it.
Yeah, not this is what I soak inand believe No, keep me away
from these things. I want you.
And so I heard it differently. Got you genuinely.
So that's that's my hard honestyeverything, bro.
And yeah, I mean, shout out to Russell Wilson too.
He showed a lot of love and always is using his platform to

(56:50):
glorify the Lord too. So yeah, I'm thankful for it,
bro. Yeah, they've, they've shown you
a lot of love and shared the record and.
All that even since man, like with true and I put out true,
they love the song and would useit.
And she, she is, she's reached out to me by making more music.
So yeah. I think it's tough because I
think as a, as a creative person, I hear what you're
saying and I go, Oh, I totally understand because I understand

(57:11):
the opportunity of evangelism increative work.
And I don't, I, I, I think if you're not a creative, you don't
get that meaning that if I have a conversation with someone
that's not a Christian, if I have a, have a conversation with
someone that's struggling interfaith or, or, or is a newer
Christian, there's a, there's somuch opportunity for
relationship, there's so much opportunity for ongoing process

(57:31):
of helping them in their journeythat I, I, I think if you're, if
you don't understand creative people that, like, that does not
make sense to most people, right.
And so it's like sometimes the point of a collaboration is not
to make the the most theologically sound.
Piece of that's. Right.
It's to build rapport. It's to let them share their

(57:53):
story. It's to let them glorify God in
the way they can in this moment.Now, here's the flip side of
this. The flip side of this is people
look to me and look to you not as creatives, podcasters,
Youtubers, rappers, singers, content creators.
They're looking at us leaders inthe faith.
Leaders in the faith. So now they're not seeing a
Hovie is building relationship with this young lady and her

(58:17):
husband and they they're on their own journey.
They're saying it as Hovie is running a church and and, and,
and, and this Sunday, the guest speaker is Sierra.
And she has, and she's talking. About low vibrations in new age,
yes. Thank you.
Yeah, Yeah. Sorry, I can't contextualize it
that well, but yes, yeah. And that's the thing and I

(58:39):
think. That's a fair.
I understand. I get it.
No, I. Know I get it, I get it
actually, I get why people are going to see it that way.
Yeah, if that's the vantage point that they view me at, yes.
But I always want to remind people the way that Jesus LED
too. Jesus was very intentional about
highlighting everyone's need forGod.

(59:00):
Everyone's. And I think that's what the
remix did was highlight that. Hey Sierra, who you Christians
might some of you Christians might have a problem with.
She wants and loves the Lord andis trying to use this
opportunity to tell him that sheloves him and she needs him.
And bro, I want to share this about that song.

(59:20):
When people ask me, Hovie, what's your thoughts on the
altar remix like you know, what's your thoughts on it?
Bro? I say I've never had a song that
reached more family members thanAltar Remix.
Never. Your own family members?
Yeah, A. Lot of my in law family would be
like yo that's so dope bro and then they were bought into my
music and how we have more conversations and it's really

(59:44):
dope. And I've never seen more of an
impact than when that happened. So spiritually I'm also getting
a different viewpoint. Everyone has a different
viewpoint, so I understand yoursif you had a problem with it.
And listen, love you guys and I'm here to glorify the Lord and
everything I do. Just know people have been
touched and people are impacted and God's moving.

(01:00:04):
Yeah. That's good.
Yeah, I think. I mean, I think of you.
You mentioned Jelly Roll. Yeah.
And Brandon Lake. I think of Chandler Moore and
Will Smith. We just reacted to the craze pod
with Will Smith. Yes.
And and we were. Watching clips.
I haven't watched the whole thing yet.
Yeah, yeah. We were, we were watching it and
we were, we were torn because like, we'll, we'll come really
close and then would drop, drop kind of like a new age thing on

(01:00:26):
us, right. And I'm like, and I'm like as a,
as a, as a fan of Will Smith, I understand the position that
Lecrae is in because he's tryingto probably work on a long term
relationship, right. But then as a, as, as a fellow
dude in the faith, like when I sat down with Tyrese, Bible in
hand, we, I'm making sure you'regetting this word right.
Like I needed to drive home thatpoint with Tyrese because of,

(01:00:48):
you know, some of the controversies and some of the
things around Tyrese, like I needed to make sure to drive
that point. And so I think, but that's me
though, like not everyone can. I can't expect that of
everybody, you know? And so it's like if, if
Chandler's doing a song with Will Smith and it seems like
he's on a journey towards Jesus and he's trying to nudge him
along in that direction of Lecrae sitting down a little and
trying to nudge him along in this direction.

(01:01:09):
We want either a like clear proclamation and a repentance
and like get away from the syncretism and combining new age
with Christianity and all this weird stuff you're doing.
Or we want a a like unapologeticredirection and rebuke in the
content of sad things. And I understand, but I don't
know if people understand that that's not how relationships and

(01:01:29):
that's not how how making. It's also not how relationship
with Jesus works. That's the problem, is that
there's a lot of Christian artists who are the most
unashamed artists on their platform who don't know God.
So that's sobering. Hard to hear some people's icons
might not know God. OK, you you got that's that's a

(01:01:49):
very controversial thing you just said.
That's right. You got to unpack that.
You're saying there are Christian artists right now that
people know, yes, that that havemassive influence in the
Christian world. And it's you're saying that they
they. There might be some that don't
know him that I'm not saying I'mout here knowing him personally.
If you read the word, the top religious leaders or in full

(01:02:09):
rebellion to God and actually the way their hearts were and
they were in full rebellion to their own Savior who looked them
in their eyes and they rejected him.
I think the same thing takes place in Christian music all the
time. And so I just want to put that
out there. I know it's controversial, but
what I'm getting at is, man, I want to be able to make sure
that I'm viewing this from a heart level, not a perception

(01:02:32):
level. Lord.
Lord, didn't I sing hit platinumrecords in your name?
Yeah. Apart from me, Yeah.
I never knew you. That's what I'm getting at.
It's hard to say, but the reality is that we have to, you
know, we we have to know him. Yeah, have to walk with him.
I'm not out here putting accusations on artists.
I'm getting at the idea that, hey, if it's possible for a

(01:02:52):
pastor, if it's possible for thePharisees, it's possible for
Christian artists. Don't get it twisted.
You know, I think a lot of fans are aware of that.
You meet people that actually come to your shows and go, hey,
I just wanted to meet you. So I made sure what my
prerequisition of of you is the same.
You know what I mean? Well, I mean, I, I think that's.
So I hope you hear my heart on that.

(01:03:13):
I'm not coming at your favorite Christian artist like for
example, I went. On to like how you cleaned that
up. I went on tour with Brandon Lake
and Phil Wickham. Loved the Lord, inspired the
heck out of me. They're the real deal.
They actually made me go Dang CCM world got some really Jesus
loving dudes. Phil.
Phil is local to hear. I know, Phil.
Amazing. He's a good guy.
So that's what I'm getting at isI'm not throwing any like, oh,

(01:03:34):
what about this person not to create speculation, create the
realization that it could be happening.
And so, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And, and ultimately, this is what I think.
I think how Christian artists can serve themselves to make
sure that they aren't conflatingthat is in having long form
conversations like this, becauseeven though your music can give

(01:03:54):
you doses of who you are, there's nothing like sitting
down and hearing Hovie for an hour, shares Heart.
You go hear the raw truth, you know what I'm saying?
I ain't going to be perfect. But bro, I love the Lord and I
want. I think without talking about
it, all you're hearing is some singing.
You know what I mean? Had plenty of moments where I
was singing a church. You're singing worship songs.
You go home and you're dry. So yeah, I think it's very

(01:04:15):
important to hear from the artist.
Yeah, I think media, it's huge, but I'm about to go on George
Djenko. I'm about to share my heart on
this. These things I need are needed.
Like what y'all do is needed bro.
And it's appreciated, appreciated on our side.
I feel like I want people to know my heart more.
Haven't done a lot of interviewsrecently and it's time so.
I love that. What are you most excited about

(01:04:36):
next? Yeah, I mean, I think tides have
turned into my career where I'm becoming more just a little not
self-sufficient. What I'm getting at is a little
more I'm trying to find the right word, not even
independent, but I'm able to make some of my own decisions a

(01:04:57):
little more. I don't lean on as much advice.
It's more channeled where I'm leaning on channeled wisdom with
a team I trust and we're making decisions versus it being like,
what do you think? What do you think?
What do you think? Now I feel like I'm getting in a
spot where it's like I'm ready to just run with the Lord and
make records and drop. Like that's where I'm at.

(01:05:19):
Touring has changed a lot of my mindset on that because I had to
become kind of independent in mytouring.
Like no one owns my touring I do.
So I've had to learn how to run a whole entire company business
ministry with me and my wife andmy team, you know what I mean?
So it taught me how to make my own decisions.
So now going into it, it's like,now what I'm more so need is

(01:05:41):
when I'm working with the label,for example, it's like I can
just make the music I love me and Ace can cook.
And then, you know, they can help me resource it.
But I'm locked in on my mission.You know what I mean?
I know what I'm doing. I don't need people to tell me
who I am. The Lord tells me who I am.
And, and I go from that place, you know, I love that.
Still need wisdom, but I'm saying keeping it more

(01:06:02):
channeled. And I think what's next for me
is people seeing a consistent stream of music and possibly me
stepping out to have fun in the way I express my faith
sonically, you know? Yeah.
Yeah, I think, I think you articulate your faith very well.
So I can see you sharing your testimony more, actually see

(01:06:25):
teaching more. I can see you sharing and using
that aspect of you as well, 'cause I love that.
Like 'cause you're, you're 26 now.
Yeah. Like this is the, this is the
season where you, where you're, you're being refined and the
things you're really good at. But then like other parts of
your brain start opening up. So you're talking about
entrepreneurship and business and you know, under and and
detention of that with ministry because at the end of the day,

(01:06:45):
you do want to. Ministry, I had no clue.
I said, oh, man, like you got topay taxes on this stuff.
You got to record deals, have contracts.
Yep, Yep. And that you deadlines.
Deadlines. Yeah, turn in dates.
People are counting on you even though they're believers.
There's for profit companies that make for profit decisions

(01:07:08):
and you have to understand your place in that.
That's hard. Is that hard to navigate in
terms of the ministry versus business?
It's been my biggest. Grief.
Tell me, Tell me my career. Tell me why.
It's been harder for me than OCDRuslan because I'm sometimes I
can be emotionally led and I'm my feelings can get hurt in the

(01:07:30):
business, bro. It's hard for me to.
I'm somebody who tries to fight for fairness, bro.
It's those moments where I'm in the business, I'm like, man, I
want this to be fair and it doesn't feel that way.
It's hard, bro. You have to remember that
capitalism and for profit business just works a little

(01:07:51):
different than my expectations. And it's not fair for me to look
at somebody's heart as rotten because they have a different
vantage point as me in business.It's hard.
It's grieve me because I'm having to continue to work on my
perspective. How how how how are you working
in your perspective? Like unpack that.
Bro I'm asking tons of questions.

(01:08:12):
I'm talking to my wife all the time like hey check me here like
tell me right now I'm not tripping.
I'm having tons of talks with with people I would trust, like
talking with Lecrae, understanding things.
Give me wisdom, you know what I mean?
Like I said, bro, I mean, I'm running a whole touring thing.
I get to see how the venues workand the way business works on

(01:08:33):
the back end, all of that. And I'm learning like, you know,
I just can't control what other people are going to do, bro.
And I think that's the wisdom I've been starting to get is
that I have to focus on what theLord is doing in my heart.
The moment I start getting this spot of like, Nah, but it's not
being done for me. It's not being done for me.
This isn't fair. This is hard.

(01:08:54):
This isn't right. This should be right for me,
even though those things could be true.
Jesus is like, yo, man, like give your shirt and your jacket,
you know what I mean? Like be willing to just trust me
to be your sustenance. I think that's where I'm just
having to kind of, I'm waking upto that, bro.
I'm 26, so it's been like AI gotinto this very young, 20 years

(01:09:16):
old. So it's like, I think it's a
normal music industry revelationof, oh, OK, it's the industry.
Yeah, that's what's up, man. Well, listen.
There's good hearted people in it.
I want to say that's what makes me thankful.
You know, I think, listen, I'll,I'll say this.
I think they're the, the we create false binaries.
Sometimes I think anyone that's running a ministry still has to

(01:09:37):
file taxes. You still got to have your
meetings. You still got to do the, the
legal requirements of running a nonprofit.
Anybody run any Christian running a business should still
minister and should still look for opportunities to be a
blessing, even when it doesn't make sense on paper.
Like I think that's, that's verycommon sense.
But I think we draw these false binaries and we create this
tension that's often times unnecessary, you know, and, and

(01:10:00):
so I think like, I think my buddy, like my buddy is a
operator of a Chick-fil-A. They're always going out of
their way to bless their staff, bless people in the community,
bless people that can't afford food and that, that like, that's
by design. Yet at the end of the day, like
if they don't sell them chicken sandwiches, like bills ain't
getting paid. Like you, you, your kids don't
eat right. So I think there's this binary
that like, if you do business, you can't be a good Christian.

(01:10:22):
Or if you do, if you're a Christian, you can't have clean
business and take care of stuff.And it's like I, I think it's am
both. Like I think you've got to be on
it. Like there has to be diligence.
To me, business is never just business.
To me, I'm with you because I think who you are should
overflow into these things. I've actually been reading in
Matthew 16, Jesus says literallysays, here's the lesson.

(01:10:43):
Use your worldly resources to benefit others and make friends.
That's right. That's right.
Yeah. So.
Shrewdness is OK. Mine too.
Shrewdness is OK, yeah, but use it for the right reasons.
Right. That's right.
Because that that guy and that parable, he used it to make some
friends. He was a little snaky in the way
he went about it. Jesus is like, hey, don't use

(01:11:04):
the snakiness, but the shrewdness.
You can honor the shrewdness because the shrewdness,
sometimes you got to be practical so that you can help
others, so that you can benefit others.
Hey, if I'm making a lot of money in one season, what am I
going to do with the money to help somebody?
That's right, Practical. You know what I mean?
Yeah, bro, that's good. Any final thoughts before we get
out here? It's a blessing, man.

(01:11:24):
Thanks for having me, bro. I mean, anyone watching this,
bro, if you if you're wrestling,you're struggling.
I always share this at the shows.
But like, he really does carry the burden.
He does and, and I challenge youto go in your room, lock your
door. Don't just leave it unlocked.
Lock your door. Speak out loud to God and he'll
hear you loud and clear and he will meet you where you're at
and allow Jesus to just show up wherever you are right now, even

(01:11:48):
if you're struggling and, and he'll heal you because that's
his heart. That's what he died for and rose
again for. So Amen.
Thank you for doing this brother.
Appreciate you. Honor, thank you, man.
We're out here, guys. Peace.
Hey, thank you so much for checking out the video.
Please be sure to comment below and subscribe and all that good
stuff. And check out this other video
that YouTube seems to be recommending just for you.
Let me know if they nailed it. All right, I'll see you over

(01:12:09):
there. Peace.

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