The Christian Mastermind Behind Micheal Jackson

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Did you know that the mastermindproducer behind Michael Jackson,
Beyoncé, Whitney Houston, JustinBieber, Destiny's Child, The
Pussycat Dolls, Lady Gaga, BlackEyed Peas, Mariah Carey, Sam
Smith, Scissor, and Maroon 5 is actually a devoted follower of
Jesus? And the profound conversations
about faith he's had with these massive names may shock you.

(00:22):
I. Remember when I worked with
Michael Jackson? They called me up.
The balloon was like, I need youto pray for me.
And I was like, OK, let's let's do that right now.
And he's like, no, I want to come where?
You are. So I flew out and sat down in
studio with Rodney Jerkins, alsoknown as Dark Child.
He's produced multiple songs that defined generations,
billboard #1 records that were massive multi platinum moments,

(00:45):
Grammys on Grammys on Grammys. But behind all the fame and
flashing lights, he's a Christian in the heart of the
secular music machine. So how does he reconcile working
in such a dark industry? Whenever I've heard of Dark
Child, I've always known you were a Christian.
Yeah, but I but being there's another green line, right?
Like a lot of us call ourselves Christian.

(01:06):
Was there any tension in terms of like you're producing for non
Christian artist? I think I I tasted all, seen it
all and I know it's better. I know God has better.
You're Solomon and Proverbs, like I can't tell which which
season you're in, in terms of you having experienced the peaks
of what the world has to offer. Then Rodney actually flipped it,

(01:27):
pressing me about the intricacies and insurance and
outs of Christian YouTube, such as why do I talk about
celebrities, many of which he knows.
I always wanted to know, like asI watch different podcasts and I
watch different Christian podcasts, specifically why the
emphasis is on secular artists? Rodney Jerkins is pressing me
right now on Christian YouTube. Bruce LON.

(01:50):
The the legendary the legendary Rodney Jerkins.
Appreciate. That bro, thank you.
I'm like, I'm like a legit fan of your catalog.
I grew up listening to you and not just let let me just say
this and I'm not and I'm just trying to guess you not just
like listening to you and not knowing, like listening and

(02:10):
knowing who Darkchild is knowing, knowing because I was
into music releasing music in the early 2000s.
So I knew, oh, that's a that's aDarkchild record.
Like I knew your credits 25 years ago.
So to be sitting here with you today in person, in the flesh,
and just to even have your support and your encouragement
for what I do and wanted to havea conversation with me is is

(02:33):
just amazing. So I.
Watch you every day bro Wow. Yeah, well, one time for for
Rodney Drake is watching me every day.
Every day. That's love, man.
OK, so, all right, I don't, I don't.
I mean, listen, people can look up the accolades and you have a
an incredible discography. I don't know how many platinum
records you got, but for folks who are like tuning in, may not
be familiar. You just also won an amazing

(02:55):
award and achievement award. Just tell people briefly a
little bit about Rodney Drakens and then we'll get to some of
the fun stuff. Yeah, I've been.
I've been songwriting producer for 30 plus years.
I worked with every artist imaginable, from Michael Jackson
to Justin Bieber to Beyoncé to Lady Gaga to Kirk Franklin, just

(03:16):
everyone. So I've, I've been on this,
this, this, this music Rd. for along time.
A long time, yeah. So 30 years, what was if you can
go back and say the first kind of breakout moment for you.
Do you remember what that momentwas in terms of like one, Hey,

(03:38):
your name is now starting to getsome buzz and people are coming
to work. And it also like, hey, like I'm
making a comfortable living now and this and this is.
Yeah, I was, I was 18 years old.I'm from South.
I'm from South New Jersey. And there was an artist from
South Jersey that I discovered. Her name was Gina Thompson.
And we had this record that we put out.
It was kind of just bubbling. It's one of those records that's

(03:59):
everybody's talking about. And that led to to Mary D Blige.
Her A&R called me, asked me to come to New York for like a
listening session and play my music, and it led to me
producing pretty much a third ofthe Share My World album.
So that was the first. Breakout moment, that was it,
yeah. What was the first pop moment

(04:19):
for you where you was like oh wewe, we on the pop Top 40?
Yeah, I think it was. Honestly, I think it was when
Brandy and Monica's the boy's mom crossed over.
Yeah, you know what I mean, man.You talking about my childhood
right now bro? Yeah, that came when that came
out. It kind of just like, I think it
kind of was like 1A radio shocker because I think
everybody at that time was accustomed to like babyface on

(04:41):
the on the ballot and and Teddy Riley and the new Jack stream.
And then this sound that I created was like something with
orchestras and harps and different things and and it just
kind of like hit radio differently.
Yeah. OK.
So you were talking, I mean thisis this is this.
Is that was 98 when that came out.
Yeah, this is really early. Gosh, I was like 8th grade.

(05:04):
So you same same year. Was that was that was that the
Jordan 14 infamy? Probably.
So I think 98, right. Jordan against the Utah.
I think that was his last, the the last dance.
I think it was 98. Yeah.
Because I remember going into eighth grade and that yeah.
That was a wow. OK, so then tell me a bit about
your faith. Did you grow up in a church?

(05:24):
My dad's a Bishop. Dad's a Bishop.
My own choir director. OK, so you learn to play in
church. I mean a little bit, I think
just naturally, I think if you're in a church where you're
part of a family that you just have to play like there's no,
like there's no, you just get upthere and you just go.
And so that was really, my brother was really the, the

(05:45):
keyboardist and my sisters played tambourine, singing the
choir. And I was kind of like the, I
was, I was the kind of the, the kid that would come into the,
the church with a, with a drum machine on this.
I was a little bit out-of-the-box.
For it was letting you rock the drum machine in church.
Definitely. Wow.
Yeah, it was. I mean, I had people, of course,
in the church that didn't understand it and looked at me

(06:08):
funny, but that was just who I was.
OK, so music is very different today versus back then, right?
And and every measurable metric,how artist is broken, how the
music is made everywhere measurable.
But for you early on, you're you're a church kid, Dad's a
Christian, you know, a Bishop. Was there a any tension in terms

(06:31):
of like you're producing for nonChristian artist?
You know what's funny is that like, I'm older now, so I look
at, I look, I look at life differently than I did back
then. So the journey was when I was a
young teenager wanting to be a producer and I was gravitating
towards hip hop and secular music.

(06:51):
It was actually forbidden in my house.
So was it because it was forbidden that it it made you
want it more I? Think so.
I think naturally most Christians, we always that we
rebelled, you know, so I was rebelling and I was also trying
to, you know, do hip hop in church.
And the more I did it, the more and then actually when I started
to actually make money from it, then it's like that's when

(07:14):
everything got received. So now I look back and I'm like,
oh, that's super. That's that's just not right in
my opinion, you know what I mean?
Like I would have rather it beenlike stand on 10/10 toes down
and be like, Nah, this is forbidden and don't do whatever
versus OK, OK, now we we go withit checks rolling in, some tiles

(07:34):
coming in, offers coming in. We good now, right.
So I feel differently now. Yeah.
Now that I'm older and I look back and I'm just like man, like
it just makes me like wondering question a lot of things in in
in certain churches. Yeah.
I'm assuming as you got older and as you got more established
that you you could speak into the content more of the music

(07:57):
that was being made. But was there any stuff back
then that you produced that you were like, man, some of this
content, some of the stuff that's being said in record, not
necessarily like is it, is it labeled Christian?
Is it label, secularism, hip hop?
Is it R&B? But like, oh man, there was some
stuff set over your music that if you go back, you go, I'm
uncomfortable. With I made positive music like,

(08:17):
you know, lyrically, like all the music that I, that I've been
a part, a part of, I think it was, you know, 90.9% positive.
But you say what, a 90.9 or 9099point?
OK, I was going to say. 'Cause that's 10 percent,
90.999, OK, right. Two nines.
OK, OK. But but I will say this like
again, as I get older, I'm starting to realize that the

(08:40):
path is also narrow. Yeah.
And I feel like, you know, when you end it in the church, when
your, your church, your your father's who's the pastor's
rooting you on that you think everything you're doing is
right. That's a degree.
I mean, we, we people deal with.There's a degree of pragmaticism
like be it's pragmatic in the sense that because something is
successful, therefore the Lord must be in it and he must be

(09:01):
cool with it. And sometimes things can be
successful and God may not all the way be be in the how right
the why might be like Hey, I want to glorify God with my
gifts to to produce and make music, but that some of the how
might be but. It's a glorifying.
Guy is it? Yeah, it's a glorifying guy.
Yeah, it. Comes that, that rule that, that
that question that even I struggle with sometimes, right?
Because it's like even now, likeif I was, if, if I was there to

(09:25):
call from like Justin tomorrow and he's like, yeah, man, I
really need you to be part of myproject.
I would think that, you know, the, the natural instinct, my
natural producer instinct were like, yeah, let's get it.
That's my natural thing. But now the spirit side of me.
But I hold on. Is it, is it line up?
Is it line up where, where I'm at in my life?
Are we going to be able to make the music that's going to be

(09:46):
able to line up where I'm at with my life, you know, and, and
that that came from maturity. And by the way, it's maturity,
but it's a I'm not going to see her lie.
It's a struggle. It's a thing that I wrestle with
daily, right, because it's like,there's, there's, there's people
that are Christians that'll say,Oh, there's nothing wrong with
that, right. And then I think that's the part
where when you start to search your own heart and it's like,

(10:09):
man, and, and I'm just like, I'mat that, that crossover.
I'm like, I just want to hear God's voice and know that I'm on
the right and that on the right path because of what I, what I
don't want to be is I don't wantto be like, yeah, Nah because
you know, it's, it's just good and the lyrics is good and ain't
nothing really. So I'm OK.
Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like now I want to be justifying

(10:29):
because I don't want to be judged on that either.
Like I I fear that. I fear that moment like that
that you know, the world ends inand God is judging you.
Like Nah, but you, you knew in your heart that was wrong, but
you except you kept choosing to do wrong.
Yeah, yeah, I know of a handful of producers, but one in a
particular close friend of mine who primarily sustained himself

(10:51):
for producing for all the local non Christian artists.
And they weren't just non Christian.
I mean this, this is some straight like debauchery, some
straight St. money, some some trafficking money like.
And and they were sustaining themselves.
And to them they compartmented like, 'cause they started going
to church and they were kind of working through their their
their faith. And they were like, man, I see
this more as a job. And then what happened is when
they would come work with us at the time, it was the brakes and

(11:13):
it became the dream junkies. It was like, man, I'm just happy
to be working with some Christians, like I'm just happy
to be producing on Christian record.
So I'll do whatever y'all. Want, by the way, that's how I
saw it my whole life, my whole life was like, well, what's the
difference? And when, when I would have
these conversations, I'd say, well, what's the difference with
the person that's working at a 711 and selling cigarettes or
liquor? They're working at 711 or what's

(11:33):
the difference? A person that said that's
working at a casino, right? And someone and they're behind
the blackjack table and someone's, you know, gambling.
That's how I looked at. I'm like, they're not the one
that's doing wrong. It's the person that's that's
actually the drink of that's doing wrong.
It's the person. And I feel like if I have to
find that much in it, then something's wrong.
If I have to question it that much, then something's not right

(11:53):
because that just means I'm convicted.
My mom was a blackjack dealer for like 25 years and I, I will
tell you that she indoctrinated me and, and my mom was not a
Christian, but like never gamble.
Like she's seen the most upfrontlevels of degeneracy with
gambling and, and like what it does to people.
However, there was a window of time where she recently came to

(12:18):
the faith, But about 15 years ago, she started kind of going
to a church. And the first thing that hit her
with was, Hey, you know, you can't work at a casino.
She's like, wait a minute, Like,what do you mean I can't work
with a, you know, like this is all I know.
And so I do think there is a, hey, let's not put a yoke on
people. They may not be ready for like,
let's walk them through the journey of sanctity
notification. And, and then at some point we

(12:40):
may need to sit down and say, you can't work at Hooters for
Jesus, sis. You know, you can't do, you
can't do cards for Jesus, sis, Like you, you, you can't like,
you know, I mean like, like those kind of more Gray areas,
you know, 'cause this stuff likeyou can't be a meth head for
Jesus. You can't be a, a, a, a pimp for
Jesus. But then there's those little
kind of compromising Gray area careers that I think people

(13:01):
often, you know, they you kind of justified it, but telling
someone that too soon could can potentially scare them away as
well. Facts, you know, will you think
if someone would have came harsher at you in the earlier
seasons of your life, it may have pushed you away from God or
pushed you away from the church?Or do you think that, you know,
or or was it? Yeah, I disagree.

(13:22):
And then you still can't come toit in your own time.
I. Just think I wasn't, I wasn't
equipped with the word enough asa as a young and to even
understand it. So if someone would have put
that on me, it wouldn't have mattered anyway.
I would have had the wisdom, I wouldn't have had the knowledge
to be able to to to accept it properly.
But I feel like I've always, whenever I've heard a dark
child, I've always known you were a Christian.
Yeah, but I but being there's another green line, right?

(13:45):
Like a lot of us call ourselves Christian, right?
But what what what does that really mean, right?
To be Christ like. So to be Christ like is like, is
Christ producing CNNA is Christ,you know, producing, you know,
as long as you love me or Telephone for Lady Gaga.

(14:06):
So, you know, so I can't. I don't, you know, Yeah.
I mean, I would consider myself a Christian if someone said, you
know, how do you why do you consider yourself Christian?
I'd be like, oh, because I separate myself from a lot of
worldly things. Like I don't go to clubs, I
don't drink, I don't do all these things.
It doesn't. But the bottom line is that
doesn't nitigate the fact that Iwas a Sinner in sin all of these

(14:27):
years. No matter what, no matter how
many times I call myself a Christian, I still lived in sin.
In what ways? In many ways, it's just in, in
life from from women to to, you know, not I think a real, I
think being a Christian is living the word like the like
knowing the word and living it is, is to be a real Christian,

(14:48):
right? Everything else is to me.
It's just like, Yo, we got so many people that use that, that,
that use that title. But then you, you knew it
because you might have seen magazine.
Oh, he's a he's a Christian or Biosense.
Oh Christian. Nah, dah dah.
But it's going to be in the fruit.
It's not going to be in anythingelse.
It's going to be like until you get to know the person, until

(15:10):
you see the fruit, you don't really know what that what they
really are, you know, so. Was there a moment where you
feel like you had that full surrender to Jesus or late later
on in your life where you were like, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm giving
God everything, including my, mymusic?
Yeah. I think recently, like I think
recently it's been more so that surrender like, like God, I want

(15:34):
to do whatever you want me to do.
I. Want to?
Be obedient to to you. I think fear of God.
I think, I think as you know, I want to, I want to, I want to
live in a place of fear of God every day.
If I can do that, then I think then I'll get wiser every day.
So, and I don't think I lived like that before.

(15:57):
I think I was just making music,having fun, just being riding
and growing and having fun. And just like, that's just what
it is. And then you get older to a
point where it's like, I got 4 kids, my wife and you know, I
want to be, I want to be a, a great example to people.
And I also want, and I also see something in the Christian hip

(16:18):
hop space, Christian R&B. I see all these spaces and I'm
like, man, like they need, they need someone to help them as
well on many levels, not just the music side, but many levels.
Yeah, can I, can I kind of prideand poke a little bit.
So one of the things I talk a lot about in my, in a, in a book

(16:41):
I just wrote called Godly Ambition, which I'll get you a
copy of, is the idea that often people just as Christians, we,
we know we're supposed to removesin, right?
We notice things we should be doing, but what we've tend to
forget to do is is you, you can't just remove vice without
replacing it with virtue. And so was there a, a layer to
what you're just saying? If I'm just listening to you

(17:03):
from the outside in where you knew, oh, I shouldn't be doing
XY and Z. But it wasn't until you had the
vision to replace it with something new, something fresh,
something different, something challenging, Christian hip hop,
aliens alive, all these new artists you're working with.
Would you say there was, there was a correlation there for you
in terms of, yes, I know I noticed those new things, but

(17:23):
now I got a vision for what I amsupposed to be doing.
I am supposed to be pouring intothis, yeah.
I think God showed me clearly what I was supposed to be doing.
But I think also when I got around it and I seen, I saw a
different type of hunger from the youth that those that
intensified me, right? And it inspired me.
I was like, I was known. I noticed like everybody that I

(17:45):
was meeting, like they were all married and young.
I was like, whoa, like that's different, right?
Like the secular industry is theopposite.
They're telling you don't get married right.
They they're telling you the absolute opposite.
Everything is the opposite. And I'm meeting all these guys.
Hovey's introduced me to his hiswife.
John Keith has introduced me to his wife.
Alex Jean has introduced me to his wife and I'm like, this is

(18:08):
amazing. Wow, Like that alone right there
is just different and that that is that's encouraging to know
and that encouraged my kids. My son, who's 17 years old,
right. He's like he has his mind set
that and you know, he wants to find a wife in his younger years
and get married, right and enjoyhis youth with it, right.
So it's I just think that God, he just he's always been like

(18:32):
knocking at my door. Like I've always knew he was
knocking at my door, but I just think like in the last couple
years he started banging on my door.
Come on, like for real. Like I really think like I
honestly think like like maybe you know, I know this could
sound crazy, but maybe I probably escaped hell, right?
Because if he was banging that hard, he must have knew like,

(18:53):
Yo, you're on the wrong path. And I need you to get right so
you can enjoy really what I havefor you.
Because I kind of like to tell people like this ain't nothing
like what we experience here. We're just, we're just here to
really, we're really here reallyto encourage to tell people
about Jesus. But it's really the eternal life
that's we need to look forward to.

(19:14):
Our goals have to be set on that.
If our goals are just set on you, I want to have the hottest
hot podcast or I want to have the hottest song.
That's so limited, you know whatI mean?
That's good. Yeah.
I mean, I was, I was 23, my wifewas 21 when we got married,
married almost 17 years now. So I think that that is a that
is, that is a really good observation from you.

(19:35):
Having kids really changes everything.
Everything I remember like even,you know, 20 years ago, I mean,
even 15 years ago, the the, the,the things that I would allow to
be played in my car. Not, not like crazy, like I'm
not talking drill music, but like Nas, Jay-Z, you know, just

(19:55):
the stuff I was like and like now I couldn't imagine playing
Stillmatic or Illmatic for my 10year old.
You know it. Which is why the music, the
Christian music is so huge. Because my.
My folks that I grew up was likeTupac indoctrinated me like DMX
was who who taught me that that God could be real.
Wow, you know, Nas stillmatic era beefing with Jay-Z, you know

(20:20):
like these. These are the people that
discipled me, you know, in termsof world and, and it was so much
I had to detangle. But my child, my, my son, my 10
year old and my 4 year old as well.
Like John Keith, like he know, he, he knows John Keith.
Like John Keith comes by the house, you know, indie tribe
force Frank, you know, Hovey, like he has met all of his
favorite rappers, like literallyall of his favorite rappers he's

(20:41):
met, or at the least he's been on FaceTime with him.
And so I, I was like, man, what if I would have met Tupac at
10:00? What if I would have met Nas at
13? You know, like what, what, what
a, what a trip to, to, to see the experience that he's having
in this music that is coming outtoday is so wholesome.
And so it's like, I don't reallyhave a desire to even go back to

(21:05):
stuff meaning like I, I listen to like the latest Nas mass
appeal release. It's like, right.
That's the I don't, it's not a rotation like that, you know,
because there's so much good. Christian music question like
can I and I, I gotta ask you a question because like, I've
always wanted to understand it. So I was watching another
episode of yours recently and you were talking about, you
know, the the dude from I think he's in Eclipse and one of them.

(21:30):
Malice, Yeah. Malice and didn't.
I like that. I like that he brought brought
this up. So now this is this fair game.
Go ahead. No, no, no.
The reason why I asked because it's like like I always wanted
to know like as I watch different podcasts and I watch
different Christian podcasts, specifically why the emphasis is
on secular artists, right? Like I feel like there's a big

(21:50):
emphasis on what happened yesterday with Justin Bieber's
project just dropped and I or Eclipse project just dropped.
And it's like, I feel like it's interesting to me.
I'm trying to learn like why? Why as Christians do we study
secular? Like even in even in our label,
I have most of my artists on my label will text me and say, Hey,

(22:12):
yo, you think you can get so andso on.
What project? And it's always a secular
artist, right? My, my, my son was talking to an
artist last week and he and he asked her like, so who like who
you inspire by? She's a Christian artist.
And it was like Drake, Kendrick future, these are all the
people. And I'm just like, is, is it, is
it that that we don't have enough great Christian artists

(22:34):
out there? Like for your like your son
listens to right? Do we not have enough?
Or why is it that we feel like we still have to go to the world
to be inspired? And that that's that that's
starting to jolt my spirit like crazy lately because I know like
in James 4, we're not even supposed to be like looking at
worldly things like that. And it's jolted me because I'm
watching all of these different Christian podcasts.

(22:57):
Like, you know, I've had conversations, I've had
conversations with like a MarcusRogers before, right?
And but let's say Marcus Rogers,like he talks 9 to 10 times
about secular artists. So I just want to understand,
like from someone who actually does this, like, why do we feel
the need to to go? Can we not talk about Christian

(23:21):
artist? Is that not?
Is it not juicy enough? I'm just trying to figure out
the perspective behind. I like the Rodney Jergens is
pressing me right now on Christian YouTube.
This is great. This is great.
Yeah, I just want to understand so, so I would say we are
talking about Christian artist. I'm talking about Christian
artist. We did 2 Forrest Frank videos
this week because he got miraculously healed from a a

(23:44):
back injury supposed to take him6 to 6 to 12 weeks.
Wow. And he got healed in two weeks
and he's back to walking withoutyeah, without walking with a
with a back brace on top of having like two number one
songs. Wow, back-to-back.
That's amazing. That he wrote while broke
without the other music. We just did 2 Force Frank videos
this week. OK, I've done videos
highlighting Christian artists all the time.

(24:04):
Right here's the the the macro though.
The macro is there still is a a culture out there and in the
same way that Jesus would use cultural references.
He's talking about farming and agriculture.
He's talking about the 10 bags of gold.
He's talking about the five talents, right as like that.

(24:24):
Those are cultural references that that I think people can
resonate with. They that stuff made sense to
them at that time, right. Render on the Caesar with the
Caesar's right. So that's a reference to a
iconic person in that culture. So when, when we're talking
about it, I'm, I, I attempt to do 2 things.
One, I attempt not to just dunk on culture and not just say

(24:47):
Justin Bieber is still smoking weed, right?
No, I go, hey man, here's all the things he did really well.
Like I'm really proud of him fordoing XY and Z really well.
I think it's dope that he talks.About Jesus, that's why I watch
you so much, because I feel likeyou're you're not bashing.
People, I don't really try and Ireally.
Try and. I feel like after you give the
the the text of the content, yougo to Scripture and I and I

(25:09):
appreciate that I just me, I've been really.
I see I see a lot of artists always hit me up for the secular
fee. Yeah, and I'm just trying to
figure out like, why do we feel we?
Really have to go. I'll explain that in a second
though. So, so I think 1 that that that
that's why I do it. And I'm also trying to create a
different precedence that when the person I'm making a video

(25:30):
about clicks in the video, they hear me sandwich it with
something really positive, hopefully, and then a concern or
a critique I may have and then something really positive at the
end. And oddly enough, people be
watching like, like, like I mentioned the Tyrese, like me
and Tyrese became friends because I made a video bigging
them up, you know, and then said, Hey, I'm concerned about
some of this stuff. You know what I mean?

(25:52):
So that that that's my intent. I can't speak for everybody in
the space. I do think that the music space
is, is still slightly behind because there is still a need
for validation from the world a bit, you know, where like I
don't need a non Christian to come on my platform to feel

(26:13):
validated. If I, if I get the interview,
you know, I don't know, Justin Bieber someday, cool.
If I don't cool, like I don't need that to validate what I'm
doing, but I do think these are interesting cultural
conversation conversations wherethere's overlap with faith.
I do think that and what rappersdesiring secular collaborations.

(26:33):
I I don't I don't know. I think if there's genuine
relationship with someone that you have and they're a secular
artist or maybe a, a non Christian artist, a a second
artist to Christian privately, Ithink that's a bit different.
Like I think we all want to makemusic with folks who you're
friends with, even if they're not Christian.
Like I think that's, that's that's what creative people do.
But the desire to be like, Oh, like I need a verse from fill in

(26:56):
the blank. I need a feature from I've, I
haven't felt that way in a decade plus.
You know, I haven't done that. I just, I just haven't felt that
way. So I, I think it's, there's
still a desire for validation. I think we still want to be
validated by the world because we don't feel validated in our
identity in Jesus. And I'm, and I'm not saying for
everybody, all places at all times.
I'm, I'm saying generally, I think that's, that's, that's

(27:18):
it's, it's in my opinion, from alittle bit of immaturity, you
know what I mean? It's.
Wild. It's just wild.
It's wild because here we, we'rehere, we have the cheat code,
the king of kings, and yet we still want to be validated by
people who are struggling with so many different things and
pushing so much stuff on our children that's not of God, but
yet we want that validation. That's crazy.

(27:39):
Yeah, no, that's good. I think that Christian music
though, as a whole, but specifically Christian hip hop
is getting there. Like I think the resurgence
we're seeing with what's happening at CCM, the the Phil
Wickham, Brandon Lake stadiums, force, Frank Arenas, I think
it's about to like, I think Christina pop is next.

(27:59):
Like I just saw Hovie pack out the same venue that force packed
out the 1000 seater in San Diego, 15112 hundred something
like that observatory in San Diego.
I just saw Hovie there three months before that.
I saw force sell out the same venue.
So I think it's about to happen.The, the, the hard part is music

(28:20):
at scale that that serves a needin the market, meaning that what
Forest does what Hovie does, man, it is it it serves a very
specific need and it's clear andwhat it is, and it's a a very
clear brand product proposition.I think Christian hip hop's a
little fuzzy on that right? Sometimes we we don't know if we

(28:41):
want to be sold out for Jesus orif we want to be Mr. Undercover
Christian, but still play at churches.
Like I think there's a bit of anidentity crisis and some of that
stuff, but I think it's getting refined.
Like I think it's getting more and more refined, but creative
people are just hard, man. Like creative people in general,
you know, I just difficult, you know?
Yeah, I mean, I, I, you know what?
I just, I want, I want to be a, a leader in our, in our, in our

(29:03):
community that doesn't get too caught up in the numbers of it
all. Because I feel like, I feel like
sometimes like we want those features because it's going to
boost the number, right? So it's like, yo, if I can get
so and so on the record, like what, what does it really
matter? Like really?
OK, so the record's going to getmore exposure because that

(29:24):
person's on the record, the numbers are going to go up,
right? Is that really the goal or is
the goal really to touch lives? Like it has to be A and and I
want to help these artists. So I'll be the first one when
they asked me, I'm like, I'm honest with them.
I'll be like, do you really need?
So if you want me to, I'll reachout.
But do you really need like I had to recently tell someone
that where I was like, I would prefer that you know, the artist

(29:46):
discover your music this way, you know?
That's the best. That's the best way right there.
Beautiful. Yeah, if someone is like, yo,
and they hit me up and be like, yo, there's this artist as
Christian so and so like, yeah, like I just feel like that's a
beauty. That's much of A way better
story, too. I think the consumer is becoming
more sophisticated with that's what they prefer as well.

(30:07):
I don't think this idea of like,you can't, I mean, like the
biggest labels in the world, like are having trouble breaking
artists. Like TDE is still having trouble
breaking Dochi and she got a guyon Grammy and she's still doing
festivals and it's it's rough, you know, So it's like the
biggest labels in the world withthe machines behind them are
still having trouble breaking artists.
So because the, the listeners become more sophisticated and

(30:29):
they want to feel like I discovered this, not that it was
in my face by the, the algorithm, you know, but I
discovered it. So I, I think you're honest, but
I think it does require Someone Like You that has had the
success and is in a place where it's almost like the way you
speak sounds like a like, I can't tell if you're coming from

(30:50):
the perspective of Solomon and Ecclesiastes.
Like I've tasted it all, I've seen it all and like, you know,
work your land and love the Lord.
Like that's the that's the rightor you're Solomon and Proverbs.
Like I can't tell which which season you're in, in terms of
you having experienced the peaksof what the world has to offer
and now being settled which, which, which one do you think?

(31:13):
I think the the the first one, Ithink I I tasted all seen it all
and I know it's better. I know God has better.
Come on. And and I want it and I want to
see that. I want to taste that.
I want to feel that I want to touch that.
I want to know all that he has. And I know it's so much more and
I and it's and I also believe it's so it's so much that I

(31:36):
can't even handle it right now. So he's given us glimpse little
pieces here and there to show uslike this is this is what I have
for you. I'm going to give you a little
appetizer. I can't give you the whole
buffet right now and but it's exciting to be on that journey.
Yeah, that's good. You brought this up earlier, the
clips, right? From one standpoint, A

(32:00):
phenomenal body of work, a phenomenal moment in hip hop.
You got two brothers that are pushes almost 50.
Mao is in his 50s and you know, and you know, massive record,
massive cultural moment. I think it's saying a lot about
just a shift in hip hop that like it it one, lyrics matter to

(32:22):
it. You don't have to age out that
that that you can be a grown man.
You I mean, you could be a grandfather and still make music
that resonates with people. Right.
The flip side of that is that there's I think some of what
they rap about, not all of it isalso a bit of there.
It's it's a character. I'm I am playing in a movie real

(32:45):
role and it's this whole thing that we're doing.
And So what do you make of that moment from one just from what
what what is happening within the zeitgeist of hip hop.
But then from the faith aspect of of of Mal, who is a solid
Christian like Mal is a solid. This is interesting to me
because I mean, maybe I think I'm thinking a little bit too
deep with it, but it like when Ithink of it, when you say like

(33:05):
this, OK, you have a a 50 year old and you have someone in
their 50s, right? And not even knowing that album,
I can probably, I could probablytell you that they probably the
subject matter is similar to many subject matters that
they've talked about before, right?
You know, St. stuff, right? And I can, I can almost
guarantee that stuff is not evenhappening in their lives right

(33:27):
now. So then it becomes a thing where
now I'm questioning the real, the real intent, because hip hop
to me from as a purist, as a kidwho grew up in hip hop, you told
stories from the places that youlived and where you were at,
right? You're telling us you're taking
stories from now. If you're telling those same
stories and you're 50 years old,something's wrong.

(33:48):
Oh, you're telling stories from your 20s and now you're in your
50s? You told those stories.
I feel like if you if if I had to go through lyric by lyric,
I'd be like, I bet you I heard this before.
I bet you I can find like said this somewhere else 20 years
ago, 15 years old, ten years ago, right.
So my thing is from a growth standpoint, from a from a we're
growing now, right? I would clearly, if you really,

(34:10):
if you look at like Jay-Z, for example, right, he doesn't make
too many albums, right? But you can clearly see that he
wasn't talking about things thathe was talking about in his 30s
anymore. It just it, it changed.
The subject matter had to changebecause he's just not living
that anymore. Like the kid is not in Brooklyn
on the streets anymore. He's running the company
soldiers and you heard him talk about that.

(34:31):
So I think from a hip hop tourist perspective, like it
would make me wonder. I bet it's freak.
I bet it's really good. I bet the music is really good.
I bet the musicality of it is really good.
I was just wondering the subjectmatter, what they're, what
they're, what they're saying if how real it is.
I have came across a lot of folks who behind the scenes live

(34:52):
rather normal lives. Hip hop artist, big big artist
who beyond the scenes live pretty normal lives.
Maybe they're not, you know, married with a family, but they
got, you know, they're with their BMS, they got their main
girl and they're trying to like,they got, they got home and they
come home to someone, right? And then publicly they got this
persona as the drugged out rapper, the pimp rapper, the
player rapper, the the the the the drug dealer rapper, the

(35:12):
gangster rapper. What do you, what do you make of
that? Like what do you make of dudes
that have a different persona and but privately live more of
what you would call a nuclear family normal type life?
I mean, I think many, many indifferent, many, many people
live that and and choose that road anyway.

(35:34):
They're not exactly who they arelike, you know, from even from
big actors that we see, right? And artists.
Even artists. I think it's specifically
someone like Future who got sober and kept rapping about
being on drugs. Yeah, that's a good point.
Like, that's really sad to me, you know?
And then when more was discovered, Juice World was

(35:58):
influenced by likely a few a sober future to do drugs do.
You think the reason why someonelike that keeps rapping about
that is because they they feel like the people won't want to
listen to them rap about anything else, right?
I think so I. Got like, like, like, like, you
know, I grew up on, I grew up with friends, with friends of
Mace. Actually, I'm the one who led

(36:19):
Mace to the Lord back in the day.
Yeah. So like no one made like to me,
like I don't really care for a murder Mace because it's like if
I'm talking to you when I'm talking to you, I'm talking to
you as Mace. But then I hear the murder man.
I'm like, that's not, no, that'snot, you know, maybe you could
be that back 20 years ago, but that's not who you are.
Why do you think he did that when he when he when he signed

(36:41):
with G unit post being a pastor?Because I think, I think it goes
back to like even the future thing.
I think sometimes it's just like, you know, you're
struggling and wrestling with with just that acceptance of
like, you know, I don't want, I don't want to just be out of
this game. So, you know, and everybody's
calling me corny and this and that instead of just being like,

(37:02):
yo, this is what it is like, yo,God changed my life.
And you know, I can't, I'm, I can't touch that no more, you
know? I love the welcome back album.
Listen, Mason's one of the, by the way, low key Mason's one of
the best lyricist. He's nice, nice.
But that welcome back album was amazing.
Nice. No, he's not.
He's been here and worked on some stuff like God stuff,

(37:23):
Christian stuff, like he nice, nice, you know what I mean, But
you know, like AI think a lot oftimes the world be pulling like
the enemy's always busy and and trying to and also will try to
make you feel like boy, you, you, you are nice, but you're
only that nice on this side. Like over here.
It's not going to really do anything, but over here like you

(37:43):
need something you need. Again, it goes back to
validation. I did an event with Mace and
what was interesting was how well he preached and then how
how normal he was like all things like he was a normal
dude. And then I saw him in Atlanta,
popped into his church, me and my wife and all of like the

(38:05):
sweetest dude, you know. So then it was like this back
and forth. He.
Was he was on the Church of San Diego at one point, I think,
yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this this back and forth of him kind of in the music out the
music in the music out the musicpreaching like and then.
Because he's nice, that's what Imean.
But but but, but why not? Why not just lean all into being

(38:25):
one person? Like the root word of integrity
is integer, which is being one, right?
Why you think it's strictly validation?
Do you think it's because he doesn't see the vision of what
Christian hip hop can be? No, I think he's, I think he's
just nice like that. Like it's like, for example,
right? It's like, why would Floyd
Mayweather keep doing exhibitionfights or fighting?
But you think Christian hip hop is the equivalent of an

(38:46):
exhibition fight? Why would you?
Why would you need to fight whenyou've already proven yourself
as a fighter? Because you could be in Pool to
it, OK, no matter what, just like, oh, I got, I can still
beat him, OK, I still like yo I I want to compete, but I might
need to fight Manny Pacquiao onemore time because I still
believe. I want to compete with the best
of the best in the secular. Exactly.
But, and that's my struggle. Yeah.
So my struggle is when I hear production, today's production

(39:09):
and things that go on, I'm like,I will body that right now.
I'll hear something to be like, I'll body that right now.
And it'd be, and that'd be the enemy trying to pull me into it,
like just to prove to myself. And that becomes prideful.
It becomes egotistical and then all those demons that you that
you was get rid of start to start to hunt you again.
Man, do you think that whoever the next Mace is because of

(39:34):
what's the infrastructure being built in Christian hip hop will
no longer see? I'm not.
I'm doing music for the Lord as the exhibition version of
boxing. You know what I mean?
Like, I think someone else is going to come to Jesus.
I think someone else predominantis going to come to Jesus.
I'm 100% in agreement with, in fact, I feel it so strongly that
we're going to see something happen over the next few years

(39:56):
where we see a lot of secular artists giving their lives to
Christ and literally making albums and singles and things.
And we're like, whoa, I didn't realize that person.
But their Lord to go back won't be as strong because there's
there's a there's an infrastructure and there's an
audience. Yeah, yeah.
That's, I think that's what it'sgoing to, it's going to be
worse, like, oh, they don't evenknow that really exists.

(40:18):
And then it's going to be a thing where, OK, this is here
and I could keep doing this and not feel like I have to go back.
To yeah, I feel, I feel like thethe the feeling that this is
junior varsity, I think it's probably crippling for the hyper
creative person that's competingat an elite level.
I think that's a very valid point you make.
If someone's competing at an elite level and they feel like
Christian music is junior varsity versus hey, Nah, like

(40:41):
actually the biggest Christian artist are outselling some of
the biggest secular artist. Technically, it's even bigger in
certain aspects. Technically, how many, how many
secular artists are doing stadiums right now?
You know, three maybe, right? Jay-Z, Beyoncé together, right?
They're doing stadiums. Who else is doing stadiums right
now? Stadiums, I don't think yeah, I,

(41:05):
I don't know many people that are doing stadiums, you know,
and so it's like, but Brandon, Brandon Lake and Phil Wickham
are doing stadiums, you know, I think Forest could do stadiums
in in a year or two, right. So I think the the, the bar has
been raised from just a audiencestandpoint and and that has been
cultivated and I think. It's going to come from no, I
think it's going to come from the heart of our heart, the

(41:27):
heart posture of worship. The Bible talks about us
worshiping in spirit and truth. And when we can do that, and
Jesus also said where he be lifted up, he'll draw all men,
not some, not a couple, not a few, not me.
All men will be taught. So stadiums will be like that'll
be like the norm once that you that unified worship starts to

(41:49):
happen and really people start to get it and be like, Yo, like
my, my kids were just saying they were like, man, some just
feels a little, but Brandon Lakejust feels authentic to me.
That's what my kids said today, right?
Well, look what you just said, like he sell it like right.
And that's when I look at him like if we had Tim Moore that
Tim Moore this. So now the norm of it is like

(42:12):
stadiums is nothing. That's good, That's good.
This man being prophetic right now, man.
You had an I'll moment on The Breakfast Club where you went in
there unapologetic and even corrected Charlemagne and some
of the other people about about some of this stuff.
It was super dope to see you on there, seeing John Keith on

(42:35):
there, who I've seen, you know, I've known John since 1516 years
old. You know, tell me, tell me what
it's been like this last run of podcast you've done and being in
these spaces where sometimes youmight, you, you might be the
only follower of Jesus in the room, you know, and, and the
boldness that you had in those spaces to stand 10 toes down
when engaging with a Charlemagneand having to kind of correct

(42:58):
him and redirect him a little bit on some of his takes.
Yeah, I'm terrified in the pod, these podcasters, but that's
what God uses me the most. Because it's funny, because when
I'm walking in, when I'm walkinginto the space of it all, I'm a
little bit like, oh man, I, I don't know if I want to do what
am I going to, you know, And then God just lets me know like
the, the, the, the room is stilland that he's, he's with me.

(43:21):
And like, it's like, it's almostlike no one like David when he
was fight facing his giant, right?
It was like, what people don't realize about that story, at
least the way I see it, is this.It's like, how could he miss?
Like, if the giant is so big, then you should be able to close
your eyes and throw something atit and hit it.

(43:41):
Bigger target. Yeah, bigger target.
The God is with you. You're not missing.
So I look at it like that, from that perspective that someone
like Charlemagne, who I've seen have said things multiple times
and that I don't, that I don't necessarily agree with.
And you know, that here's an opportunity for me to have a
conversation with him about Jesus means the world to me,

(44:03):
right? Because it's like you just never
know what someone's going through.
You never know what someone's thinking.
But just to get some things off the chest and and not trying to
correct in a demeaning way. Yeah, just trying to you.
Did a really good job, yeah. Not trying to just like though,
this is how I see it from my perspective and my opinion and
it and it all that, you know, that, you know, we tend as human

(44:24):
beings to just chase these awards like people are people
are if people infatuated with like Grammys and different
things on their shelves and all of that, right.
And I remember when I worked with Michael Jackson, right, I
was working with Michael Jacksonand Michael first of all, just
where he lived like in, in, in, in Neverland was just like this

(44:47):
amazing place, right? And he had all of these
different places, like I'm talking like a two-story video
game spot. And I remember there was always
this door closed and at the at the game room, right.
And every time I go, I always just like, I want to know what's
in it being nosy, right? And then one day it was unlocked
and I snuck in there and I went down and I saw all of the

(45:09):
Grammys and I'm just like, I waskind of like I was only 21 years
old or young. And I saw all of these Grammys
and all, and all the awards. And I said, so then I got back
to the house and I said, yo, Mike, I was like, yo, why are
your Grammys? Like he said, what am I supposed
to do, tap myself on the back every time I see the Grammy?

(45:29):
And that was like a tea check for me, right?
Because I'm like, you know, if I'm with them Grammy, you're
going to be seeing them everywhere, right?
That's what I'm thinking of myself.
So but the goal, what we have ashuman beings, right?
We've made it. We put it so much about winning
the gold, winning that earthly material thing, right?
And I just wanted to make it really clear, Like, I just don't

(45:52):
think God cares. I just don't think he's really
sitting on the throne and being like, yeah, yeah, I got to go
get like the Grammy you want forthe song called so and so.
Yeah, that I just don't think he's sitting there.
I just think it's bigger than that.
And it's beyond earth. It's the eternal reward, come
on, that we should be really focused on.
Because if we're focused on that, then all the stuff here is

(46:17):
not going to matter. Yeah, I mean.
And and that's, and and that's and I'm and honestly that's a
struggle when I think all of us like we all want, I coach my
son's basket, my 10 year old bachelor.
I want to win the championship every time we go every like I'm,
I'm super competitive. So I want to win the
championship. I want, I want, I remember one
of the, I remember someone told me a long time ago, it's, it's,

(46:39):
it's not about, not about the medal, right?
And it isn't like it isn't aboutthe metal.
I just want to see the smile on their face when they get it and
know that they put, they worked hard and that they achieved
something. And then use that as a way like,
OK, now let's put that into spiritual perspective.
If you work hard at your craft with your relationship with
Christ, there's a reward that's waiting for you.

(46:59):
That's beyond what this is. Yeah, that's good.
That's good. What I, what I love about that
is the, the thing to actually become the guy with the Grammys,
right? The, the Michael Jackson, the,
the, if I'm going to take it in,in a practical sense, is
actually being in love with the process of becoming the type of
person that can make the type ofthing to have the set success.

(47:24):
So in, in Atomic habits, James clear talks about people want to
change and they just focus on the outputs.
So it's like I, I, I want to change.
I want to, I want to Grammy, I want to make more money.
I want to, I want to scale. I want the scale on the weight
to be different and you're just consumed with the output.
But he says what really has to happen is that you have to

(47:45):
change your systems and your processes.
Because if you become the type of person that has the daily
systems to become who you want to be, the outputs will come in
time. You got to fall in love with the
process and the systems, right? And because he says you never
rise to the, to the level of your goals.
You always fall to the level of your systems.
So what are your daily systems, right?
But he says you can't change your systems unless you have a

(48:06):
change of identity. So identity is so crucial in
that the first, the person that no longer identifies as a smoker
is more likely to quit smoking. The person that sees themselves
as an athlete is more likely to do things and create the systems
and the processes that behave like an athlete.
And then they'll eventually get the output, right.
The issue though, even with thatis, well, where do we get our

(48:27):
identity from, right? Like, like if you, what if I am
a smoker? Like what, what, what, what if,
what if I'm not? What if I'm not good at what if
I've never been an athlete? And you just like, just imagine
I'm just, I'm an athlete. I'm no longer a smoker.
And so the what you're getting out though in, in, in in a
deeper spiritual sense is that identity.
It can't be outside in. It can't be validation numbers

(48:48):
on a board and it can't be inside out.
It can't be subjective to my whims and my feelings.
Because if you if your kids basketball team just keep saying
we're champs, champions, What ifthey're not champions?
What if there's some other team that's just nasty because they
stacked the deck and they got all the kids that grew up
together, right? So what if they're not?
But if we say our identity is not outside and it's not inside
out, it's actually top down. So Jay Warner Wallace coined the

(49:11):
language top down. So my identity is anchored in
who Jesus says I am, not in my external validation or my
subjective feelings, my identity.
So therefore I am a child of God.
I am no longer a St. I'm a Sinner.
I am sanctified, right? I am a friend of God.
I am a I'm adopted, I'm accepted, I'm loved.
I I am the temple of the living God.

(49:32):
So you want to talk about motivation to create the systems
to change our physical outcomes.It's like my body's a temple of
God. Of course, I got to pay
attention to what I'm eating andwhat I'm drinking and what
right? So you, you, you have the shift
is like, and it's because of whohe says I am, not the, the
external motivation or the, or the subjective feelings.
And so I think what you're getting out on a, on a deeper

(49:52):
sense, man, is that, yes, there was something in Michael to say
these Grammys don't mean anything.
I'm just the type of person thatcreates the type of music that
gets those types of results. There's a degree of obsession
and a degree of commitment to that.
But what, what, what is that overflowing from?
Because that could be overflowing from I need to prove
them all wrong. That could be overflowing from I

(50:12):
need validation or it could be overflowing from I want to bake
the most of my time, talent and treasure to bring glory to my
God with everything He's given me 'cause actually everything
he's giving me is not even my own.
These gifts are my own. This life's not my own, right?
So I, I, I love, I love that that you connected.
I love that you connected to basketball 'cause we did the
same thing. We coached the basketball and it

(50:33):
was, it was rough, bro. We had a couple teams that
stacked the deck. I'm going.
Through that right. Now bro it's bad it's bad y'all
doing like like traveling team? Yeah.
But we, we, we have like we, we're like out of our last 20
games, we're like 18 and two, oh.
You're nice. Yeah, and we and we won and we
won like the, and we won the championship and then we came

(50:54):
back the next season and we lostthe championship.
And now this season we we just lost the first game this season
and we got a game on Saturday, playoff games on Saturday.
So it's like we when we get to the championship again and I'm
not going to be at the championship, I'm going to be a
holy smoke. Yeah, we we did 3rd place last
season in this and in this previous season it was a

(51:15):
complete blowout. It was awful.
Worst season ever. So we're trying to regroup.
Anyway, tell me about you made the claim, which I had heard
rumblings about, that Michael actually came to faith in Jesus
few weeks before he passed away.Yeah, so I, I mean, listen, I
was sometimes now I look back, I'm like, man, was, I was, I

(51:36):
was, I was I working with Michael just to pray with him?
Like, was that the real purpose?Like I, because I remember being
in New York City and I remember leaving a session with Michael
in New York. This is this is 99 by the way,
1999. What album was this invincible?
Invincible and with 1999, I'm leaving the session and I
remember that day getting to thehotel and I prayed that night.

(51:59):
I said, God, if you want me to introduce you, to introduce you
to Michael or Michael to you, rather, if you want to introduce
Michael to you, you have to openthat, open that door.
Because I was 21, I was a little, I was, I was a little
scared to say anything. And like literally the next day,
like the door just flew open. Like Michael said something,

(52:20):
Michael said something next to, you know, it was like an open
door. And I remember from that moment
on, we would just have like conversations here and there.
We talk about faith, we talk about different things.
He would talk about his upbringing and Jehovah Witness,
all these different things. And then in 2003, four years
later, he was in a big trial with his whole huge trial.
Which you which you beat, by theway.
Yeah, yeah. And he and he, he, he called me

(52:41):
out the blue. I wasn't even working with him.
He called me out the blue and was like, where are you?
And I said, I'm in, I'm in Hollywood.
I had a student. He was like, I need, I need you
to, I need you to pray for me. And I was like, OK, let's, let's
do that right now. He's like, no, I want to come
where you are. And he literally my, and my
father was with me, Chris Tucker, who's a good friend of
mine. He was with me.
And Michael drove down right, like left where he was, came to

(53:05):
the studio. And The funny thing, we'll tell
you what's crazy about that, this story, before he came, my
father, he anointed the whole studio with oil.
He went around and prayed over every room, the elevators,
everything. Soon as Michael got off the
elevator, first thing he said was the first word that came
out. He says I sense a sweet spirit
in his place. That's the first thing he said.

(53:27):
I never get that. And we prayed and then he
laughed. He went back to the land and it
was just like he just, I think it was just like, I think he had
a moment where he remembered us praying.
He was like, who can I call? That's not going to judge me.
And, and, and, and he knew that,you know, from our talks that
God was the only thing I was going to give him the strength
that he needed. And then Fast forward now before

(53:49):
he passes away or when he beforehe passed away, two weeks prior
to him passing away, Sandra Crouch and Andre Crouch, right,
who were friends of his, they did the sinner's prayer with
him. And Seth Riggs, who was his
vocal coach, I heard it first from him.
So Seth came to my house. This is right after Michael

(54:11):
died, Seth came to my home and he was saying Michael did the
sinner's prayer 210 days ago. And I was like what?
He was like, yeah, they literally, he literally did the
sinner's prayer with Andre. And and so when I went to the
memorial service, I was trying to find Andre and Sandra.
I'm looking all over like I justwanted, I wanted to verify this.

(54:32):
So I got to Sandra and I said, Sandra, what happened?
And she goes, Michael, accept the Lord Jesus Christ as a
personal savior. 10 days ago. Come on.
And I'm like, and so now my mindgoes like, is this like a Enoch
thing where it like, you know, Mike, God just takes him out of
here. Like maybe that's the situation.
Maybe it's like, I've been calling you for so long.

(54:54):
I've been knocking on your door for so long and now you we can't
hold on too much longer. It's like that's the stuff that
would go through my head. I was literally like struggling
a lot with that. Like, Dang, like I didn't want
to see him pass away. No one I think want to see him
pass away. But then I'm like, yo, man, like
the fact that, you know, that happened 10 days prior, like

(55:14):
man. So I rejoice in that, you know
what I mean? I rejoice in that and that part
of it all because I know like, you know, for, for, for Michael,
I don't, I don't think Michael ever did anything that wasn't
heart based. He wasn't that type of person.
So it's like you can't just havea conversation with him and he's
just going to be like, Oh yeah, I'm, I'll, I'll do this in his

(55:35):
prayer with you just because I know you.
I'm sure Andrea and Sandra Crouch, who've known him since
the 80s, had probably presented Christ to him many times and he
said no, I can almost guarantee it.
But for some reason that was thetiming that something connected.
That's incredible, man. Wow.
And praise God that he used you to plant seeds throughout that

(55:56):
whole process. Man, that's so cool.
Invincible was one of those, like, infamous albums that cost
30 million to make, and it was abig, you know, loss for Sony and
a bunch of controversy. What was it like working on that
record? It was, it was a, it was like a
mind trip because Michael was such a perfectionist.

(56:19):
So he was always just like, you know, just testing me and making
me just just go through hoops toget the sounds that he wanted.
Like just like just. Beyond yes, you cooking up live
for him like you producers love that.
Hey, hey, do a magic trick for me, for me, right on the spot
like that. Or like or calling me at 4:00 in

(56:40):
the morning, like are you in thestudio?
I'm like no or go back to the studio.
I need to hear what you worked on today.
Like those type of it was like what like, and I'll be like in
my car 4:00 driving back to the studio, OK.
And you know, it was it was intense.
It was very intense. And you know, but it was the
greatest experience in, in probably my career because I
always say like that was school for me.

(57:01):
You know, I got, I got the the teachings of Michael Jackson,
who got the teachings of Barry Gordy and Quincy Jones and Teddy
Riley and people that I looked up to.
So to be 21 years old and working with that, working with
him on that project was like blown away.
Is there anyone you've worked with in the Christian space that
reminds you of Michael's work ethic?
Not yet, no. Anyone come close?

(57:27):
Not yet that I've seen, though Ihaven't seen it yet.
Michael's work ethic is. You got to understand though,
there was one. There was no one in the secular
realm that had his work ethic. No, no, no one.
I've never worked any. No, there's, there's there was
no artists. I can compare.
No, no artists different, different level of
perfectionist. I'm talking about.

(57:48):
I have that, remember that tapes, I have that tapes where
it says mix pass #40, mix pass #4.
That means we spent 40 days on one mix and it still isn't done.
Yikes. On one mix.
Yikes. So he was really hands on with
everything then? Absolutely.
Not just his parts, but the production, the mixing, just
ridiculous with everything. Absolutely.

(58:09):
What were what were the records you landed on that Invincible?
Record Oh I landed like the first song was Unbreakable him
featuring Biggie Invincible. The title track Rock My World.
Rock My World is a jam. That's the one.
Yeah. I thought, man, I was like, I
thought that was going to be another mega, mega, mega, mega

(58:29):
record. Track it would have been it, but
it couldn't because at the time so right before the project
dropped not right before literally like 6 months Michael
was in a lot of like back and forth with Sony and it was it
was nasty yeah and it was like. Called him devilish.
Yeah, it was, it was, it was bad, you know, so I don't think
it was ever going to really get its real.
Yeah. I mean when have you ever seen a

(58:51):
Michael album not have multiple videos?
Yeah, it's true. Right.
And I funny thing is, is like I always, I'd look back and I
think about how Michael literally told me 5 songs that
he was going to shoot short films to and four of those five
were my songs and he only had one video for the whole project.
Which was the record you did though?

(59:12):
Yeah. That record specifically, is
that 100% you doing all of it orare you no, are you doing
references? 100% And then I did the track
and then I had my team, my team of writers.
It was me, my brother. Yeah, playing on it and doing
the instruments, yeah. No, no, no.
I did all the instruments. You did all the instruments.
You did everything. All instruments.

(59:33):
So what? So what?
What did other people do on it that you did?
The the lyrics. The writing on.
It the lyric I had a we I have aproduction team, so the main
lyrics, a lyrical team and melody team.
So it was myself, Lashawn Daniels, my brother Fred, Nora
Payne and Harvey Mason Junior that was like my team.
So you did all the all the composition, all the production

(59:54):
for all of it. They're coming in and sending
and what, laying down a scratch vocal for Michael to come in and
listen to it and what have. The demo, you still have it?
Yeah. Can I hear it?
Oh yeah, I'll play it for. You what does it sound like it?
It sounds like rock more. But is it?
But are they trying to emulate his voice?
Like, are they trying to do it? And his voice did.
It so like I would I would literally like.
I will make every demo try to sound as much as close to

(01:00:15):
Michael as possible. And so he's just coming in.
And what was his first impression of that record?
Yeah, like, like he was, he was blown away.
He was just like, you know, I, Ithink that at at that period I
had cooked up 17 records for him.
So I was playing them 17 songs in one day.
And that was song number six in that list.
And I remember telling him before I played it, this is the

(01:00:35):
one. Like I knew it.
I always felt that like, you know, and then he always laughed
cause the way I would dance to that so.
But yeah, so that became like the one.
That's fire. That's one of that that's one of
my favorite someone I grew up onMichael in the early 90s and and
my first exposure to American culture.
I don't if you know, I grew up in the former Soviet Union.
Oh wow. It came out as a refugee from a

(01:00:57):
country called Azerbaijan. And my dad had a video business.
Oh, wow. It was smuggling video cassettes
from America. And so he brought over American
Ninja and Michael Jackson on VHScassette.
And my first exposure, all I knew of America prior to coming
to America was American Ninja and Michael Jackson.
That's why. So as a kid that like grew up on

(01:01:18):
Michael Michael stuff. And then so and then that
record, like that's still one ofmy favorite rock in my world is
still one of my favorite rock. Yeah, that's that's still one of
my favorite micro records. Yeah.
So yeah, it was. It was a time, yeah.
Tell me, tell me this now you'redoing Christian hip hop stuff.
You have the label, you have an amazing roster, John Keith, aha,

(01:01:38):
Gazelle, Alex, phenomenal roster.
How has it been getting all of this off the ground?
And, and what are you, what are you most excited about this
garden that you're, that you're tending to and you're growing?
I'm I'm just excited about it all because my wife and I was
just discussing one day, like how are we going to how are we

(01:02:00):
going to shepherd our children away from the just the the
negative stuff that I knew. Like it's funny because when I
was a young teenager, though, I feel like Caris 1 wasn't
negative to me or Big Daddy Kanewasn't so much negative.
Like like you said, Nah, like you listen to it, but you were
like, that wasn't that bad, right?
But today, right. So me and my wife were like, we

(01:02:21):
already saw like there was this kind of like thing happening
with the kids as they're gettingolder, they're getting friends
and the friends are talking about this artist and this
artist. So like, how are we going to
shepherd them? And we found this station here
in Orlando that played Christianhip hop.
And I started playing it every day.
And I, I play it every day religiously.
And they were in the back seat, not into it.

(01:02:43):
Next thing you know, my son and my daughter were like Dad, we
should, we should start a Christian division.
How long was this? It's about two years ago and I
was like, I was like, OK, cool, but we do it.
We got to do it like right, We got it like it's all about the
roster. So I went and we went and.
And what is what is your day-to-day at that point?
What are you doing just? Producing I just finished

(01:03:03):
working with scissor. OK, so you still produce, you
still getting busy? Yeah, I was just.
I had just. Finished working with her and.
Scissor, you know what I mean? And and so like we go in and and
there was a local concert here. It was only like maybe like 53
people there, but it was like TJCarroll, DJDJ Bryce, Kayla

(01:03:24):
Gordon, Alex Jean. And.
Kenny Rivers and we went to thatshow and I invited all of them
back to my house afterwards and we just hung out and we just
talked and hang. We're just talking.
And then the next day I'm telling my my son and my
daughter, I'm like, let's make alist of artists that you guys
like. And we started making a list on
the whiteboard. And it was like John Keith and
it was, you know, all these different artists on his, on

(01:03:46):
his, on his, on his whiteboard. And now I'm like, OK, I got to
see who they're signs, if they're sign, if they're not.
And I started doing my research and now I'm listening to them.
And as I started, I started liking like, and I'm like, OK, I
got actually obsessed with it tothe point where I couldn't
listen to anything else. Like I couldn't like I get my

(01:04:06):
car and it's like, I won't listen to anything still right
now. Turn, go, turn the key right
now. That's what you're going to
hear. And so and I just wanted to
genuinely help these guys. I feel like I feel like some
want to be helped, some don't want to be helped.
I'm learning that part. Ain't that the?
Truth. I know I'm learning that point
out, but it's OK because we all have to grow.

(01:04:30):
But I know in this season God has put me literally for some
reason, he's put me right in thecenter of this for for several
reasons. One is to disciple, help these
artists grow, but also to also help people with better deals.

(01:04:50):
Tell me about that. I just think that like, I've
heard too many stories of people's deals not being on the
up and up. And so with that being said, I
was like, OK, then I'm going to do things differently.
And I'm going to make sure like we do the right thing by these
artists. If we're going to do it, let's
do it the right way. Let's not try to take advantage

(01:05:11):
of anyone. Let's do the right deals.
And so I really started taking, I started even my home attorney
Black. You're going to give that,
You're going to do that. Give me an example.
There's something you did that that that's against legal
counsel. And then the artists own their
masters but but still funding itfor.
You let artists own. Their but still, but still.

(01:05:33):
Hey man, hold on man. This man is a St.
Bro no, no, no. You let artists own their
masters, you don't even Co own it with them.
No, like we'll, we'll do like a licensing thing for a period of
time, but yeah, like cuz I and the only reason why I like one
of the the the things that wouldlike started breaking my heart
was like I would see of the labels selling the the the

(01:05:54):
catalog and the artist not benefit from it.
Hold on SO. Then I would say so.
So I would say, OK, OK, from a business perspective, I
understand that, right? They sign those deals, so
there's nothing they can do about it.
But what if there's a world where we could actually create a

(01:06:14):
system, right? Where it's like, OK, you can own
your masters. But at the same time, what if
let's say you didn't own this masters and I decided to sell
this kettle, but you still got achance to eat off the entire
thing, right? Isn't it how it should be?
So that's my mindset. I love that.
Yeah, I love that. Anything else you could think?

(01:06:35):
Of I mean, I think it's, it's somuch it's so much to unpack in
it and I'm still learning from it.
But the the major thing to me isjust making sure that that these
artists that have families that will have families, if they
don't have families, that they will have a backbone and a leg

(01:06:55):
to stand on. And if that if they're giving
their whole heart to music, thatthey'll be rewarded for it at
some point later on in life. Yeah.
And not feel like, yo, like, yo,this.
I just we we sold. They had, they sold it for this.
And I didn't get anything like, come on.
Yeah, come on. And I know the situation.
You talk about, which is why it's uncomfortable.
For me right now, that also thatalso that that's when I started,

(01:07:18):
that's when I started saying to myself like, OK business or
Kingdom business, like OK, or ifwe're Christians, like that part
of it. And then we got to really search
our heart in that part. I think, King, I think what
makes Kingdom business differentis radical generosity, is that
as a Kingdom person, I want to make sure that I never fight

(01:07:43):
with you about money and that I go above and beyond to
overcompensate you, which you'reworth, because that's Kingdom to
me, you know, I mean. And that OK, so that's another
thing, right? So I'm glad you said that.
So you asked me another thing. Like most of the artists that I
know that I met that they would tell me like what their advance
or if they didn't, they I just I'm I'm I just signed a sign or

(01:08:06):
something. It's almost done, but I'm
surprised by the time this comesout.
I'm signing a female artist right now.
She's she's not Christian hat pop singer, but she's a singer,
right? Singer.
When she told me what her advance was, I was like, wow, I
couldn't believe it. So I get fair advances.
My advances are better than somesecular company advances, right?

(01:08:26):
And I only choose to do that because I think that it's the
right thing to do. That's dope, man.
I asked you, we did a tour and Isaid are you, are you, are you
partnered with the major? I was like, are you, are you,
you got investors and you were like, Nah, I don't know what any
of that is. So this is this is, this is you.
Yeah, that's 100 a 100%, me and my my wife, because we're

(01:08:48):
partners, you know, that's my partners.
My 5050 is my wife. So that's all of our resources
that we pour into this. Yeah, we hope we will have some
investors soon to help out too, but you know, we we we just
don't be being obedient, you know, told to do and pour into,
you know, the talent and and I and I also see like it for me.

(01:09:10):
The funny thing is like people about yo, are you making money?
I'm like, no, like really, like I've given money away.
I've helped artists that have some money and has a but I'm not
making anything off of I can't tell you like yo, I'm in a
profit margin right now and I'm no like, and I'm not even
thinking about it like in the minute that you do have

(01:09:31):
investors, that has to change a little bit.
So I do understand that, right, But I'm just, I'm just trying to
help people get their music out and help them enjoy it.
And I also believe like, like, why can't we shoot better
videos? Like one thing, like we're
working on Grow Wings with John.I was super adamant about like,
yo, we got to level up with the the visuals.
Are crazy for that, by the way. Yeah, right.

(01:09:52):
Yeah, so and, and I and, and, but John will tell you like we
had a full on conversation here.The student like, yo, we got to
level up with these videos. And I and it wasn't, it wasn't
about making a great video for him.
It was about the community, because I feel like the only way
other people will make great videos if they start to get
inspired by what you do. So let's do something great with

(01:10:13):
John, right? I had AI have a guy on my on my
own team just question why we just shot of the video that we
shot with TJ Carroll, who's likea newer artist, right?
And I don't like to be questioned when I know what I'm
doing, what guy's telling me to do, right?
Like I don't, I don't trust me. Everything that I'm doing, I'm
not doing is just just because like God is leading, right?

(01:10:35):
So if, if I'm capable and able, able to be kind, right, and help
a artist get better, then I'm going to do it.
And then hopefully another artist that's watching another
label, that's what they're goingto say.
Hey, maybe we should, maybe we should take some notes and, and
we should step our thing. And then that's when the whole.
That's when the culture changes.Yeah, it's culture building.

(01:10:56):
That's what you're talking about, right?
Right. Your culture eats vision for
lunch. You could have the greatest
intent, the greatest vision, thebiggest ideas.
But if you, if you can't build culture, which is your systems,
how you operate, how you move your values, your ethos, if you
can't build culture, then, then,then, then it'll all end.
You know, how can people? Support you?

(01:11:16):
Well, let me say that also we got to treat everyone the same.
So what I wanted, you know, showwas like, OK, number wise, TJ
not may not be on the number wise as John Keith, but he just
shot a video that's on the same number number level as John
Keith, right. When Jesus fed the people, he
didn't say, well, I'm just goingto give you a little piece of

(01:11:37):
this fish and just give and givethat person over there.
Nah, he fed 5000 and he went right.
So we have to talk walk the way Jesus would have did it.
And that's, you know, and that'sbeing kind.
Yeah, you're a St. bro. No, I ain't no St.
I'm. I'm far from that, trust me.
How can people pray for people? How can people support y'all?

(01:11:58):
That's how you support us. You support us by praying for
us, right? Because, you know, the, the more
we, the more we do this and the more we grow, the more the
enemy's busy, right? You know, like the enemy wants
to. Is it this like funny, 'cause
I'm like the enemy trying to attack these last couple weeks
and I'm just like, I literally called a prayer meeting with my
team and I'm like, hold on, everybody that's good on, on

(01:12:19):
Zoom call. We got to pray today 'cause the
enemy's busy. And I know why the enemy's busy
'cause we're, we are Kingdom bound.
We're doing things to interrupt what's happening around here,
right? We want we want to interrupt and
be disruptive to to the enemy's plan, right And with God, we can
be right. And so so we expect that.
We expect it. But I just asked for like

(01:12:41):
prayer, like the the, you know, the the Bible says the prayer of
the righteous availeth much. And so we need other Kingdom
people, you know, locked in and being like, Yo, we're going to
pray for that, for that team over there that God uses them in
a mighty way. And that's it.
That's the that's the way. That's the way we.
Anything specific we could be praying for?

(01:13:03):
I just think like, give it. I think courage and having the
courage to just be. I want us to be more intentional
about about the name of Jesus. I think, I think something got
lost somewhere where people started telling artists in the
Christian space to stop saying Jesus so much.

(01:13:24):
I don't know where it happened. I don't know what label started
it, but I'm, I'm 100% against that.
I think we need to be more intentional.
And I told, I tell all my artists, I told John that I tell
every, I say I need to talk about Jesus more because the
Bible says I'm ashamed of man who's ashamed of me.
And like I said earlier, he saidwhere I'll be lifted up.

(01:13:45):
I will withdraw all men. So I think we need to be
intentional about really not like before I think about it,
one of the major things was radio, right?
People be like, Oh, you say I'veI've read something.
I don't know if somebody posted something recently where they're
like Kanye was saying, like in acontract.
Rotation contract. Yeah, yeah, like can't be
mentioned. I don't, I don't know how, how

(01:14:07):
real it is, but that's wild if it is like that wild.
Yeah, right. When you think about.
It well, he said that, but then no malice did all these
interviews talking about Jesus fairly openly.
So I don't know if it's like youcan't say it in the albums or
what, but like I felt it was this, there was this some Jesus
references. Man, let me tell you something.
Little, little thing, I don't know if, but I, I had in 2006,

(01:14:27):
we got in two in 2006, I worked at Def Jam Records and the
president of Def Jam at the timewas Jay-Z and I was senior vice
president of A&R at the time. And I never forget going to my
house one night. We going, I go to these A&R
meetings every week, right? And never forget one night I had

(01:14:48):
this dream that Jay-Z was cryingout to God.
The guy that worked for Jay-Z atthe time was crying out to God.
Another guy that was associated with Jay-Z was crying out to God
like crazy. Like I'm talking about like
porn. I woke up startled and I
remember telling my wife and shesays you need to, you need to
tell him. And I remember like we had two

(01:15:09):
ways back then. I see them, you know,
blackberries rather. And I remember hitting texting
right away and called him and told him my dream.
Now that I'm old, I look back and I'm like, like, why did I
have that dream? Like, what was that dream for?
Right. And I think about it like the
Bible says, even the rocks will cry out, right?
And he was showing me in that time that we had put them as

(01:15:33):
such on such a pedestal, right Rock, the Rockefeller, the Roc
Nation. But even the rocks will cry out.
Come on, that's good. I'll tell you my Jay-Z story
real quick. So 2012 South by Southwest, I'm
at the Christian hip hop festival thing and then I'm with

(01:15:55):
Bentley and Bentley is like, yo,let's head to the good music
showcase. This is right as watch the
throne's about to come out. And so they take me, hop in.
I, I leave because I'm like, I should I stay and like cultivate
the Christian hip hop thing. And I remember waito shout out
to waito was like, now you got to go, like you need to go.
And so I go, I get there, Bentley gets me backstage.

(01:16:19):
Bentley's a great dude, by the way.
He was always very. We did toured together, we did a
bunch of together. He gets me backstage.
That Bentley hasn't like Fon's husband, Yeah.
Yeah, Fon's husband. Yeah, my wife's best friend.
Get out. Yeah.
Like Fon's she's she's amazing. She's amazing.
Yeah, Fon and Derek are amazing.So he gets me.
He gets me backstage and he's like, yo, he said something like

(01:16:41):
whatever you do, just like don't, don't, don't, don't talk
to Yay. Like Yay is about to go on.
He's in his own. Like, just leave him alone.
And I'm like, got it. OK.
But he didn't tell me not to talk to Jay.
OK, So Beyoncé's back there. Everyone's there.
But it's right when push comes around, pushes that come up to
push, like, yo, your brother came to faith in Jesus.
He's just looking at me like, I'm crazy.
I don't care, right? So sure enough, Jay-Z is, is

(01:17:05):
walking and this is around the time he toured with U2 and he
kept wearing this Jesus Lord shirt.
And so I walked, I walked up to him and I was like, yo, and I
dapped him up. He dabbed me up.
And I'm like, hey, man, like what's up with the Jesus Lord
shirt, bro? And he's like, he just kind of
looks at me. He got these sunglasses on.
He just kind of looks at me and he's like, and I'm like, are you

(01:17:26):
trying to make a theological statement?
Like, what's up? You know.
And he he just so perplexed. And he was like, I don't know,
man. I don't ask Alexander Davinci,
like, I don't know. And then just just kept walking,
you know. But I, I remember, I remember
telling Derek about that. He's like, you did what to who?
And I was like, hey man, if there's one thing I will know is
that he will remember that moment and someone approaching

(01:17:48):
him about Jesus because I wasn'ttrying to hand him a demo.
That's what he said to me on thephone, by the way, when I call
him and say I remember, I know one thing.
I remember this moment because you're the first one I ever even
brought this to my attention. Yeah.
So that's crazy that you felt the same way.
Yeah. You know what I mean?
Yeah. So anyway, interesting time.
Anything else brother you want to leave us with before we get
out? Man, I just thank you for having
me on your on your show world. Like I like I said, I'm a fan.

(01:18:10):
I, I watch you religiously and it's, you know, and you and
you're impacting lives and impacting the Kingdom, man, and
it's, it's, it's well appreciated, bro.
Yeah, so thank you for having mein your beautiful space.
Thanks man. Thank you for yeah opening your
doors man. This has been great.
Hopefully it's a blessing to people.
Yes Sir. Hi guys, we're out of here.
Peace. Hey, thank you so much for
watching this video all the way to the end.

(01:18:31):
If you liked it then hit the like button.
If you liked it a lot and have athought to share, leave a
comment. If you are listening to this on
the podcast app, make sure to leave a review and you could
even leave a comment over there.And if you want to watch another
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(01:18:53):
monthly, which helps us out a lot in our monthly community.
Get access to early drops and all that kind of good stuff over
here. All right, I'll see you over
there. Peace.

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