August 5, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, Ruslan sits down with Christian apologist Wes Huff to explore the difference between chasing influence and building expertise. They discuss the years of faithfulness, study, and behind-the-scenes preparation that led to Wes’s viral impact, emphasizing the importance of character, stewardship, and godly ambition. Together, they unpack what it means to pursue passion that embraces discomfort, live a life worth questioning, and use every opportunity for God’s glory.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
As you may know, Wes Huff had a meteoric rise after his infamous
debate with Billy Carson, 2 subsequent appearances on Joe
Rogan, flagrant podcast and podcast all over the YouTube
stratosphere. But what many don't know is how
speakers, authors, apologist like Wes Huff, go from working
in obscurity and anonymity to finding that sweet spot of their
(00:23):
purpose and calling. And this idea of knowing your
calling, walking in your purpose, knowing the difference
between selfish wish desires andGod's desire for your life are
some of the most frequently asked questions I get in person
when I speak at conferences and events and things that we see
online in the comments section from many of you.
So that's why I think today's conversation with Westheuf will
(00:44):
be extremely valuable for you. We're pulling the curtain back.
And I also put all of this together in my brand new book,
Goddamn Mission, which Westheuf actually gave an incredible
endorsement for that will be peeking in the middle of this
conversation in this book outlines the road map of what
many people from the outside will say.
Christians who found success have taken how to walk in your
(01:06):
purpose, how to know your identity, how to defeat
distractions, how to find community, collaborate, and walk
ultimately in the fullness of your true potential in Christ.
It's rich in scripture and theology, while at the same time
being extremely practical to help you move the needle in your
life today. And it's the same road map and
theological framework that the Christians you see on this page
(01:27):
have also used to walk in their column. pre-order book now at
your favorite retailer and get abunch of pre-order bonuses like
the intro in the 1st 4 chapters of me reading them live on
camera and giving you some of the back story now.
All right, go to mygodlyambition.com to claim
your pre-order bonus. OK, ladies and gentlemen, today
we have an amazing guest with ustoday, the one and only Wes
(01:48):
Huff. Thanks for joining us.
I wanted to have you on, man, because you know, often times
when we're talking about other aspects of whether it's YouTube,
whether it's business, whether it's ministry, people always
have this phrase. You don't really want to know
how the sausage is made, right? And what I appreciate about you
is that the more I get to know you, the more I discover like
(02:11):
how consistent and persistent and faithful you have been
behind the scenes for decades before anybody ever knew who Wes
Huff was. And I kind of wanted to, to get
in that and peel away at that a little bit.
Because I think a lot of Christians are looking at the
kind of stuff you're doing, the kind of stuff I'm doing, the
appearances, the social media presence.
(02:32):
And they, they, they aspire for these things.
They aspire to become influential, but they're missing
some of the foundational aspectsof it.
And so unlike the sausage being made, which is kind of a, a
negative term, this is different.
This is, hey, the, the way that your life has been built up in
the last decade and a half before anybody knew who you were
(02:54):
has been extremely honorable because you leaned in.
We're faithful, worked hard. And that's expressed itself in
in many different ways. And so for folks who don't know
some of that that that back story, like not, not the where
you're from and the FAQ type stuff, but like the back story
of how you develop the expertiseand, and the patience to be able
to have the, the the breakout moments, the preparation that
(03:16):
led to the the opportunities that then exploded.
Wes Huff and, and who we know you are to be today.
Yeah, well, I. Think a a big part of that is
that word you used, faithfulness.
It's like we were just called tobe faithful.
We're not called to be influential.
We're not called to be like an influencer.
God will use you despite you. And that can be on so many
(03:41):
different layers. Like I think of my my
grandfather recently passed awayand my grandfather was just a
quiet, faithful steward of who he was never graduated high
school. He wasn't an academic.
He wasn't, you know, someone whowas known on a a grand level.
And yet you hear all these stories of people who he just
(04:02):
influenced by his testimony of agodly Christ centered life.
And so, you know, that's really what we are required to do.
I think a lot of people look at the Ruslan's or you know, the
the Frank Turex, the William Lane Craig's of the world and
(04:23):
they feel like they need to be hitting the home run when in
reality scripture is just calling us to step up to the
plate. That's it.
And the confidence of what Scripture tells us about what
God will do is that if we take the opportunities prayerfully to
step up to the plate, God is going to be the one that hits
(04:43):
the home run no matter what it is.
And I think that should give us confidence because His sheep
will hear His voice. And we just need to be ready.
We need to be prayerful in looking for the opportunities to
let the Spirit lead us and take advantage of that.
Always be ready to give an answer for the reason for the
hope that we have, but that implies that we're leading a
(05:05):
life that is expressing a hope that that people are asking us
about. And so in one sense, when you
read that you know first pretty of 315 and 16 verse in your
hearts prepare Jesus is Lord always be prepared to give an
answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope
that you have, but do so with gentleness and respect to
keeping a clear conscience. It's not actually speaking to
(05:25):
me, whose job title is Christianapologist, speaking to the
regular, but in the Pew faithfulbeliever who's living a life
that is expressing something that is meriting that people are
going to ask about that hope. What's what's different about
you? And the answer is Jesus.
That's good, Yeah. Living a life that is different
from the rest of the world. That is a sweet aroma.
(05:50):
I think of the passage, you know, live such good lives among
the pagans that though they accuse you of doing wrong, they
will see your good deeds. And that could lead them to
glorify God on the day he returns.
Glorify Jesus when he returns. Right.
So I think, I think, I think, yeah, I think, I think you're
spot on there. So for folks who are trying to
hit the home run without first learning, hey, let's just step
(06:13):
up to the plate. Give us a little bit about the,
the, the stuff you were doing before anybody was familiar with
you. Like your level of expertise
wasn't developed overnight. It was developed and it wasn't
developed in front of the world.It was developed in a quiet
place. Tell us what that was like going
to school, learning the things you've got to learn, being in
(06:35):
ministry. Give us a little bit about of
that background. Yeah, I mean, I've talked about
this a little bit on different platforms, but I was fully
convinced coming out of high school that I was going to be a
police officer, that I was goingto go into the police force.
I was going to pursue being a police detective, and that was
the trajectory that I was going to go on.
And it was really feeling the conviction of the Spirit in my
(06:58):
life via other people as well, you know, speaking into my life
and hearing that godly wisdom from individuals who knew more
about that particular Rd. and then stepping out in faith in,
in areas that were a little bit uncomfortable.
I didn't know what I was going to do.
(07:22):
I knew that if I went to seminary and I graduated with a
degree in theology, I couldn't take my diploma to the
apologetics factory because thatdidn't exist.
And so I, you know, I couldn't put in my application for that
type of career. The career wasn't but thing that
existed. And so there was a little bit of
fear and trepidation in terms ofGod's leading in my life.
(07:43):
But knowing that I had a passionthat I that I felt a calling,
you know, not any type of voice from heaven or something like
that. But just feeling the weight of
people who didn't know Jesus andjust the excitement of this book
that held these truths and had ahistory to it and spanned
(08:06):
centuries. And that you can dig into the
languages that that was originally written in.
And when you hold an English translation in your hand today
that that has a long history. You know, it didn't fall out of
the sky with the leather cover and, you know, nice gold edging
on the pages that that there's ahistory to that, right?
(08:26):
It wasn't written on golden plates that we dug up in the
forest. And so there's something to
that, right? And, and that's exciting in and
of itself, the way that God has preserved his word through
normal people who do things likemake scribal mistakes, who who
make spelling errors. And that plays into the reason
why we can have confidence that what we have now is what the
original authors wrote. And so this being, you know,
(08:52):
trying to be faithful in the abilities that God had given me
and the opportunities in particular learning languages
isn't necessarily my strong suit.
I wouldn't say that that is a gifting that I have.
I know some people who genuinelyhave that, but I just took that
journey as something that I feltpassionate about, even though I
didn't necessarily have the giftings to naturally just kind
(09:15):
of pick up the Greek New Testament and and have that just
kind of intuitively make sense. It was a long, storied time of
Ida Ida professor at one point who said that learning the
biblical language is going to belike when Jacob wrestled with
the Angel that you got to hold on and it'll bless you
eventually, but you might walk away limping.
(09:36):
And there were times where I walked away limping and that was
OK. But just the faithfulness in
that of seeing that this is something that is rewarding to
pick up a Greek New Testament orHebrew Testament and be able to
read that and understand that and communicate that to others.
In giving them confidence that when they hold their English
translation, that it is actuallywhat the, the Hebrew and Greek
(09:59):
say. That it's not masked in some
kind of obscurity because it's an ancient language.
Or that they, you have to listento this person who actually has
the secret knowledge because they can understand some sort of
meaning behind the Greek. No.
You know, you pick up an NIV or an ESV or an NLT and it says
(10:21):
pretty much what the Greek and Hebrews say.
Yeah, Yeah, that's good. How many total years of
education have you now been ableto do from your preliminary to
now? You're in a PhD program.
I'm not sure if you ended up finishing it or not.
Yeah, I would. How many years is that total?
I think I'm in what, grade 2829?I, yeah, I still a student,
(10:45):
still very much a student tryingto wrap up my P, my PhD
dissertation, but it's, it's a, it's been a long journey and
there were gaps, right? I graduated high school and I
did missions overseas for a little bit.
I was in the Middle East and then I was in Rwanda.
And then I, I did an undergraduate program in
sociology, like I said, with full intention of eventually
(11:08):
going on to police college. And, but instead of doing that,
I went on and I did a master's of theological studies, ended up
starting another master's degreeafter that THM.
But I, I put that on pause shortly after I started it
because I was recruited to do apologetics work with an
organization called Power to Change, which is the Canadian
(11:30):
version of CREW. And so I worked with them for
close to five years, but in the midst of that, I put it on pause
so I could support raise so thatI could do the missions work on
the university campuses. But I, I paused that.
And actually throughout that whole time I was, I was
continuing to work on my, my language studies.
(11:52):
In fact, one of the reasons why I started taking the second
master's degree instead of goingright into a PhD program is
because I felt that I needed to kind of bulk that up, that I
needed to make sure that I had the competency in going into
something that required me to beable to fluently pick up a Greek
New Testament. And although I felt some level
(12:13):
of being able to do that, I needed to have, you know, that
that really solidified for me. And so I started that second
master's degree, put it on pause.
And then the opportunity came updue to a number of different
factors that I could drop that master's degree and apply for
(12:35):
the, the PhD program directly. And even that was a risk.
You know, I was dropping the master's degree.
I did D enroll and then re enroll.
And there was no guarantee that that would happen, that I would
get into the PhD program, that Iwould get the supervisor that I,
I was, you know, pursuing in, inthat program.
And it did, it fell into place. So it was, you know, four years
(12:57):
of undergraduate studies, two years of a master's started
another three-year masters, and then transitioned that into a
APHD program, which I've been atfor way too long.
But you know, life and family and ministry and all those good
things. Yeah, yeah, There's something
(13:18):
you said earlier. I want to unpack a few words,
one of which is is stewardship and faithfulness.
We're going to come back to that.
But you said passion and I have the section I wanted to
highlight for you. You've checked out some of the
book God the Ambition, but I think the way you use the word,
I think people can misconstrued it in a way.
So let me share what I wrote andand see what you think about
this. Right.
So this says choosing your vocation is not about finding
(13:41):
something you love to do so much.
You do it for free. And if you can make money from
it, whoopty Doo. No finding something you're
passionate about that you're willing to sacrifice yourself
for it, to lay down your life for it, to endure agony.
It's not about never working a day in your life.
It's about finding so much meaning in your work that you
allow the work to transform you.If you do it as easy, your life
(14:01):
will be hard. But if you do it as hard, your
life will be easy. Passion allows us to choose the
hard things in life so that overthe long haul, life will become
easier. Don't separate passion from
pain. If you honor your passions,
expect the road to be rewarding,but not easy.
And then I go on to say how the second definition of passion,
passion in the dictionary actually refers to the passion
(14:25):
of the Christ. The second definition refers to
the suffering of Jesus. He shows us that passion and
pain intermingle for the most beautiful life imaginable.
Again, I'm not putting work our work on the same level as
Jesus's, but as his disciples, we should follow his example by
accepting pain as a natural partof doing great things for the
Kingdom. So I think sometimes we deal
(14:49):
with the idea of passion as a very superficial.
I just feel this thing in my heart to go and, and, and build
this thing, right. But the reality is that biblical
passion, and I would say the sustainable passion is way more
comfortable embracing discomfort, way more comfortable
in agony, way more comfortable in working through and having a
(15:12):
master's program and do another passport and then doing the PhD
program, right. That, that that is true passion
that will lead to sustain you interms of your vocation.
I think often times people are just like, what am I passionate
about? I'm passionate about basketball.
So I'm going to be a professional basketball player.
It's like, no, like that, that that's not how it works.
So I'm not sure if you want to speak into that idea of passion
(15:33):
with within the context of vocation, but I think it's it's
a huge one. And this is from the the chapter
3, the chapter on calling in my book Godly Ambition.
But yeah, what what are your, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah. I think our passion should be
investments in our character, inthat what excites us should
ultimately lead to an end that is not necessarily something
(15:56):
that is going to be safe financially savvy.
I remember there's this conversation I had with my wife
Melissa, when we were driving ina car.
I, I can picture where we were, although I don't know where we
were driving to or even actuallywhen this took place.
It was before we had kids. But I, I, she was kind of
struggling with the fact that, you know, she was graduating
(16:17):
teachers college and thinking about, you know, she's done all
this school, but she really wants to be a mom.
And does that mean that she's going to all the school was a
waste and us talking about the fact that no, all of that
education was an investment in herself in that she was learning
things that she would take on, even if it was just discipline,
right? Even if the degree was just
(16:39):
learning to be disciplined and learning to make sacrifices for
the purpose of this degree or, or what have you.
And that, that passion should lead to something that that
builds our character up in who we are.
And, and there's going to come atime, you know, that you kind of
(17:00):
had that refrain, something thatyou, you love so much that you
never work a day in your life. Well, if it's a true passion,
the danger is that you're going to work every day of your life
because, because you love it so much, right?
Because. You want to put.
All of you into it. And there's a danger in that
too, right? And that it can cause things
like burnout because you're the lines will blur if you make your
(17:24):
career and your passion crossover in that the in some
ways punching in and punching out in a 9:00 to 5:00 is way
easier. And so the, the level of that
passion, ultimately, like a Christ centered passion will be
one that is going to sanctifyingly move you towards
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being conformed to the image of Jesus.
And no matter what that is. And you know, there's this line
from, I think it's in Martin Luther's table talks where he
says that the, that the godly cobbler, right, someone who
mends and makes shoes that his, his, his expression of his faith
(18:05):
isn't by sewing little crosses into the the tongues of shoes,
but by making really good shoes.And so all of those things that
we do should be an act of worship, no matter what it is.
It doesn't have to be overt. I had a conversation with an
individual and mentor of mine, Andy Bannister, who now works
(18:26):
out in the UK. And he was telling me when I was
talking with him about, you know, pursuing ministry in a
more formal way and him saying, you know what Wes, that as
someone who was currently in active full time ministry said,
you know, you might actually have more opportunities
evangelistically as a layperson than I do in that you can talk
(18:49):
to unbelievers in a secular workplace.
And that could afford more one-on-one relational evangelism
than me talking on a stage and and taking that to heart and
really thinking about that and the implications of that, that
sometimes we glorify something like full time ministry and fail
to realize that wherever God hasput you right, because we have
(19:13):
this grass is greener on the other side mentality.
But no grass is green where you water it, and it's going to be
green if you're investing where you are and you're pursuing, you
know, not for our own sake, but for the sake of the Kingdom.
I love that what what I feel like you exhibit well is the
counter of what we see in society today.
(19:35):
We see a lot of folks who aspirefor influence without expertise.
And one of the beautiful things is that you have the expertise.
And it's because you had the expertise that then you
developed the influence. And I think that that's been the
beautiful part about watching your journey.
So when you say that, I instantly think of moments you
want Joe Rogan, you with Andrew Schultz, you having these
(19:59):
conversations with folks who perhaps aren't waving the banner
of Christianity or Jesus just yet.
But you're in an evangelistic setting that yes, had you just
been in a full time ministry context, preaching from stages,
which which all of that is amazing, the same doors to
evangelize wouldn't have opened.And So what do you make of the
(20:23):
space where we're at, where we have influence without expertise
as kind of the the North Star? Unfortunately that that that
drives a lot of people in today's climate.
Yeah, I, I think that's dangerous because I think what
it will often force people to dois make shortcuts that
ultimately will not benefit thempersonally or, you know, it's,
(20:51):
it's like, it's like cutting corners in the building of a
bridge. You know, you don't cut corners
when you build bridges because if the bridge does not have a
firm foundation, if the engineering isn't sound, well,
the bridge is going to collapse and everyone on the bridge is
going to end up in the river. And that's that can have
(21:15):
ramifications that go beyond simply the bridge breaking like
it can lead. People can have a negative
influence on on their lives, right?
They could die. And so it's, it's making the
small progressions of 1st and, and that's why I said earlier,
you know, it's investment in yourself.
(21:36):
You shouldn't cut corners on your character.
You shouldn't cut corners in theway that you invest in yourself,
whether that's with your health or whether that's with your
family or whether that's with your career, because it's, it's
just not worth it. And the limelight isn't all it's
crack up to be. And the lie of the influence is
(21:58):
that you are the sum of your actions.
You're not the sum of your actions and, and society is
going to tell you that, but it'sit's not true.
And so God is going to use you no matter what position or
status or vocation that he has LED you in.
(22:20):
And you know, we're called in Scripture to lead a quiet life,
and pursuing the limelight can be dangerous because it's the
opposite of that. Yeah, it's like, it's like
pursuing money for the sake of money instead of pursuing money
as a byproduct of being effective at something and
having a craft that's valuable in the marketplace.
You're just, you just want the end result without the process
(22:42):
of what it takes to deliver. It's like pursuing being jacked
just for the sake of being jacked.
It's like, yeah, you could take a bunch of drugs and you could
take a bunch of stuff to get yousuper jacked, but man, that
comes with consequences. Not outside of the vanity and
the body dysmorphia that many bodybuilders end up dealing
with. Like you're pursuing something,
trying to just get to the end result without the the process
(23:05):
transforming you from the insideout.
So there's nothing wrong with becoming super fit.
There's nothing wrong with earning money.
There's nothing wrong with becoming successful.
It's just if you're going after the end result and not embracing
the process, it could be very, very detrimental to your, to
your health. Right.
So I think that's the part that a lot of folks aren't
calculating for. One of my favorite verses in the
(23:26):
Psalms is Psalm 24/1, which saysthe earth is the Lord's and
everything in it. And you mentioned the idea of
stewardship earlier, right? And so sometimes that word like
stewardship, it sounds like a lofty Christian term, but the
idea of stewardship is quite simply living out that verse.
It's living out the idea that God owns everything.
(23:47):
God owns me and, and, and my life is not my own and my body's
not my own and my family's not my own and my career is not my
own and my influence is not likenone of it is mine.
It's all on loan to me by God tomanage and steward it in a way
that brings glory to him. Similar if I was asked to house
sit for a buddy of mine that hasan A beautiful mansion and he's
(24:09):
like, Hey, I'm going away. There would be some expectations
for me to not throw parties to make sure I tidy up, to make
sure I go check the mail to, to make sure I'm taking care of his
place, right. And so the idea of stewardship
is sometimes we miss that our lives and not our own that, that
we think that, that we're, that we have main character syndrome,
right? But when you look at it from the
(24:30):
lens of stewardship, it's like none of this, this is mine.
This is all given to me by God to manage onto his glory.
Can you speak a little bit into that with regards to a holistic
picture of all these different elements that people are after?
People want to earn more money. They they want to be in better
shape. But if you're just pursuing
those things without the proper anchoring, again, it can lead us
(24:52):
into some some some trappings that become worldly.
Yeah, I think even if we have good motivations, if our our
methods by attaining those motivations are incorrect, then
the ends justifying the means will always become complicated,
right. If you, you want to get jacked
and you want to get strong, so you you take all the drugs
(25:12):
prematurely and and you compromise your health.
Well, sure, you might feel strong in, you know, for however
many months you're taking a cycle of whatever's going on
there, but it's it's not going to actually make you a healthy
individual. It's not going to lead to a
flourishing life. It's going to compromise your
(25:33):
health. It's going to you know,
physically and mentally and you're going to damage yourself
and and people around you. It's so that the stewardship is
exactly what you said, Ruslan, understanding that these things
are given to you for the purposeof you glorifying God, that all
(25:55):
of our acts professionally, personally, they're acts of
worship. And so if we can see our lives
within the framework of a Worshipful mindset, then that's
going to change our perspective on how we do things.
It's going to, it's going to recalibrate our understanding.
(26:16):
Of course, we're we're not goingto do that.
Well, we, we endeavour to do it,but you know, that's why, I
mean, I remember reading recently a theology of sleep and
it basically saying like, there's a reason why you turn
into a sack of potatoes for like8 hours every 24 hours.
(26:36):
It's because God is reminding you that you, you need to slow
down, you need to rest. You know, there are limitations
to who you are and that's a goodthing.
And the stewardship part of thatis understanding your
limitations and handing those over to God and letting your
life be that Worshipful reflection of how you can
(26:58):
glorify Him in all things small and large.
Yeah, yeah, no, that, that that's amazing.
I think the, the way that I am am trying to bridge this
together for people as people are are looking at what is their
calling, what why are they here.The way I'm trying to fuse this
together is that stewardship andgodly ambition in my framework
(27:21):
are interchangeable, right? Like godly ambition, that
healthy ambition that is anchored in Jesus, anchored in
his word, is ultimately reflected and and made revealed
to the rest of the world in the idea of stewardship.
I really want you to pick up my brand new book, Godly Ambition.
You can get it at whatever retailer you prefer.
We have links pinned below. It comes out September 9th, but
(27:44):
right now if you pre-order it, you can go to
mygodlyambition.com. After you pre-order it, you can
get a screen screenshot of your receipt.
Go to mygodlyambition.com, hit claim pre-order access and
upload your screenshot to get the first 3 chapters along with
the intro chapter and an Ambition Action worksheet to
help you work through how do youdiscover your purpose and your
(28:05):
calling now? So this is available right now.
This will get emailed to you as soon as you pre-order it again.
The link is pinned up in the comment and in description
below.
As you may know, Wes Huff had a meteoric rise after his infamous
debate with Billy Carson, 2 subsequent appearances on Joe
Rogan, flagrant podcast and podcast all over the YouTube
stratosphere. But what many don't know is how
speakers, authors, apologist like Wes Huff, go from working
in obscurity and anonymity to finding that sweet spot of their
(00:23):
purpose and calling. And this idea of knowing your
calling, walking in your purpose, knowing the difference
between selfish wish desires andGod's desire for your life are
some of the most frequently asked questions I get in person
when I speak at conferences and events and things that we see
online in the comments section from many of you.
So that's why I think today's conversation with Westheuf will
(00:44):
be extremely valuable for you. We're pulling the curtain back.
And I also put all of this together in my brand new book,
Goddamn Mission, which Westheuf actually gave an incredible
endorsement for that will be peeking in the middle of this
conversation in this book outlines the road map of what
many people from the outside will say.
Christians who found success have taken how to walk in your
(01:06):
purpose, how to know your identity, how to defeat
distractions, how to find community, collaborate, and walk
ultimately in the fullness of your true potential in Christ.
It's rich in scripture and theology, while at the same time
being extremely practical to help you move the needle in your
life today. And it's the same road map and
theological framework that the Christians you see on this page
(01:27):
have also used to walk in their column. pre-order book now at
your favorite retailer and get abunch of pre-order bonuses like
the intro in the 1st 4 chapters of me reading them live on
camera and giving you some of the back story now.
All right, go to mygodlyambition.com to claim
your pre-order bonus. OK, ladies and gentlemen, today
we have an amazing guest with ustoday, the one and only Wes
(01:48):
Huff. Thanks for joining us.
I wanted to have you on, man, because you know, often times
when we're talking about other aspects of whether it's YouTube,
whether it's business, whether it's ministry, people always
have this phrase. You don't really want to know
how the sausage is made, right? And what I appreciate about you
is that the more I get to know you, the more I discover like
(02:11):
how consistent and persistent and faithful you have been
behind the scenes for decades before anybody ever knew who Wes
Huff was. And I kind of wanted to, to get
in that and peel away at that a little bit.
Because I think a lot of Christians are looking at the
kind of stuff you're doing, the kind of stuff I'm doing, the
appearances, the social media presence.
(02:32):
And they, they, they aspire for these things.
They aspire to become influential, but they're missing
some of the foundational aspectsof it.
And so unlike the sausage being made, which is kind of a, a
negative term, this is different.
This is, hey, the, the way that your life has been built up in
the last decade and a half before anybody knew who you were
(02:54):
has been extremely honorable because you leaned in.
We're faithful, worked hard. And that's expressed itself in
in many different ways. And so for folks who don't know
some of that that that back story, like not, not the where
you're from and the FAQ type stuff, but like the back story
of how you develop the expertiseand, and the patience to be able
to have the, the the breakout moments, the preparation that
(03:16):
led to the the opportunities that then exploded.
Wes Huff and, and who we know you are to be today.
Yeah, well, I. Think a a big part of that is
that word you used, faithfulness.
It's like we were just called tobe faithful.
We're not called to be influential.
We're not called to be like an influencer.
God will use you despite you. And that can be on so many
(03:41):
different layers. Like I think of my my
grandfather recently passed awayand my grandfather was just a
quiet, faithful steward of who he was never graduated high
school. He wasn't an academic.
He wasn't, you know, someone whowas known on a a grand level.
And yet you hear all these stories of people who he just
(04:02):
influenced by his testimony of agodly Christ centered life.
And so, you know, that's really what we are required to do.
I think a lot of people look at the Ruslan's or you know, the
the Frank Turex, the William Lane Craig's of the world and
(04:23):
they feel like they need to be hitting the home run when in
reality scripture is just calling us to step up to the
plate. That's it.
And the confidence of what Scripture tells us about what
God will do is that if we take the opportunities prayerfully to
step up to the plate, God is going to be the one that hits
(04:43):
the home run no matter what it is.
And I think that should give us confidence because His sheep
will hear His voice. And we just need to be ready.
We need to be prayerful in looking for the opportunities to
let the Spirit lead us and take advantage of that.
Always be ready to give an answer for the reason for the
hope that we have, but that implies that we're leading a
(05:05):
life that is expressing a hope that that people are asking us
about. And so in one sense, when you
read that you know first pretty of 315 and 16 verse in your
hearts prepare Jesus is Lord always be prepared to give an
answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope
that you have, but do so with gentleness and respect to
keeping a clear conscience. It's not actually speaking to
(05:25):
me, whose job title is Christianapologist, speaking to the
regular, but in the Pew faithfulbeliever who's living a life
that is expressing something that is meriting that people are
going to ask about that hope. What's what's different about
you? And the answer is Jesus.
That's good, Yeah. Living a life that is different
from the rest of the world. That is a sweet aroma.
(05:50):
I think of the passage, you know, live such good lives among
the pagans that though they accuse you of doing wrong, they
will see your good deeds. And that could lead them to
glorify God on the day he returns.
Glorify Jesus when he returns. Right.
So I think, I think, I think, yeah, I think, I think you're
spot on there. So for folks who are trying to
hit the home run without first learning, hey, let's just step
(06:13):
up to the plate. Give us a little bit about the,
the, the stuff you were doing before anybody was familiar with
you. Like your level of expertise
wasn't developed overnight. It was developed and it wasn't
developed in front of the world.It was developed in a quiet
place. Tell us what that was like going
to school, learning the things you've got to learn, being in
(06:35):
ministry. Give us a little bit about of
that background. Yeah, I mean, I've talked about
this a little bit on different platforms, but I was fully
convinced coming out of high school that I was going to be a
police officer, that I was goingto go into the police force.
I was going to pursue being a police detective, and that was
the trajectory that I was going to go on.
And it was really feeling the conviction of the Spirit in my
(06:58):
life via other people as well, you know, speaking into my life
and hearing that godly wisdom from individuals who knew more
about that particular Rd. and then stepping out in faith in,
in areas that were a little bit uncomfortable.
I didn't know what I was going to do.
(07:22):
I knew that if I went to seminary and I graduated with a
degree in theology, I couldn't take my diploma to the
apologetics factory because thatdidn't exist.
And so I, you know, I couldn't put in my application for that
type of career. The career wasn't but thing that
existed. And so there was a little bit of
fear and trepidation in terms ofGod's leading in my life.
(07:43):
But knowing that I had a passionthat I that I felt a calling,
you know, not any type of voice from heaven or something like
that. But just feeling the weight of
people who didn't know Jesus andjust the excitement of this book
that held these truths and had ahistory to it and spanned
(08:06):
centuries. And that you can dig into the
languages that that was originally written in.
And when you hold an English translation in your hand today
that that has a long history. You know, it didn't fall out of
the sky with the leather cover and, you know, nice gold edging
on the pages that that there's ahistory to that, right?
(08:26):
It wasn't written on golden plates that we dug up in the
forest. And so there's something to
that, right? And, and that's exciting in and
of itself, the way that God has preserved his word through
normal people who do things likemake scribal mistakes, who who
make spelling errors. And that plays into the reason
why we can have confidence that what we have now is what the
original authors wrote. And so this being, you know,
(08:52):
trying to be faithful in the abilities that God had given me
and the opportunities in particular learning languages
isn't necessarily my strong suit.
I wouldn't say that that is a gifting that I have.
I know some people who genuinelyhave that, but I just took that
journey as something that I feltpassionate about, even though I
didn't necessarily have the giftings to naturally just kind
(09:15):
of pick up the Greek New Testament and and have that just
kind of intuitively make sense. It was a long, storied time of
Ida Ida professor at one point who said that learning the
biblical language is going to belike when Jacob wrestled with
the Angel that you got to hold on and it'll bless you
eventually, but you might walk away limping.
(09:36):
And there were times where I walked away limping and that was
OK. But just the faithfulness in
that of seeing that this is something that is rewarding to
pick up a Greek New Testament orHebrew Testament and be able to
read that and understand that and communicate that to others.
In giving them confidence that when they hold their English
translation, that it is actuallywhat the, the Hebrew and Greek
(09:59):
say. That it's not masked in some
kind of obscurity because it's an ancient language.
Or that they, you have to listento this person who actually has
the secret knowledge because they can understand some sort of
meaning behind the Greek. No.
You know, you pick up an NIV or an ESV or an NLT and it says
(10:21):
pretty much what the Greek and Hebrews say.
Yeah, Yeah, that's good. How many total years of
education have you now been ableto do from your preliminary to
now? You're in a PhD program.
I'm not sure if you ended up finishing it or not.
Yeah, I would. How many years is that total?
I think I'm in what, grade 2829?I, yeah, I still a student,
(10:45):
still very much a student tryingto wrap up my P, my PhD
dissertation, but it's, it's a, it's been a long journey and
there were gaps, right? I graduated high school and I
did missions overseas for a little bit.
I was in the Middle East and then I was in Rwanda.
And then I, I did an undergraduate program in
sociology, like I said, with full intention of eventually
(11:08):
going on to police college. And, but instead of doing that,
I went on and I did a master's of theological studies, ended up
starting another master's degreeafter that THM.
But I, I put that on pause shortly after I started it
because I was recruited to do apologetics work with an
organization called Power to Change, which is the Canadian
(11:30):
version of CREW. And so I worked with them for
close to five years, but in the midst of that, I put it on pause
so I could support raise so thatI could do the missions work on
the university campuses. But I, I paused that.
And actually throughout that whole time I was, I was
continuing to work on my, my language studies.
(11:52):
In fact, one of the reasons why I started taking the second
master's degree instead of goingright into a PhD program is
because I felt that I needed to kind of bulk that up, that I
needed to make sure that I had the competency in going into
something that required me to beable to fluently pick up a Greek
New Testament. And although I felt some level
(12:13):
of being able to do that, I needed to have, you know, that
that really solidified for me. And so I started that second
master's degree, put it on pause.
And then the opportunity came updue to a number of different
factors that I could drop that master's degree and apply for
(12:35):
the, the PhD program directly. And even that was a risk.
You know, I was dropping the master's degree.
I did D enroll and then re enroll.
And there was no guarantee that that would happen, that I would
get into the PhD program, that Iwould get the supervisor that I,
I was, you know, pursuing in, inthat program.
And it did, it fell into place. So it was, you know, four years
(12:57):
of undergraduate studies, two years of a master's started
another three-year masters, and then transitioned that into a
APHD program, which I've been atfor way too long.
But you know, life and family and ministry and all those good
things. Yeah, yeah, There's something
(13:18):
you said earlier. I want to unpack a few words,
one of which is is stewardship and faithfulness.
We're going to come back to that.
But you said passion and I have the section I wanted to
highlight for you. You've checked out some of the
book God the Ambition, but I think the way you use the word,
I think people can misconstrued it in a way.
So let me share what I wrote andand see what you think about
this. Right.
So this says choosing your vocation is not about finding
(13:41):
something you love to do so much.
You do it for free. And if you can make money from
it, whoopty Doo. No finding something you're
passionate about that you're willing to sacrifice yourself
for it, to lay down your life for it, to endure agony.
It's not about never working a day in your life.
It's about finding so much meaning in your work that you
allow the work to transform you.If you do it as easy, your life
(14:01):
will be hard. But if you do it as hard, your
life will be easy. Passion allows us to choose the
hard things in life so that overthe long haul, life will become
easier. Don't separate passion from
pain. If you honor your passions,
expect the road to be rewarding,but not easy.
And then I go on to say how the second definition of passion,
passion in the dictionary actually refers to the passion
(14:25):
of the Christ. The second definition refers to
the suffering of Jesus. He shows us that passion and
pain intermingle for the most beautiful life imaginable.
Again, I'm not putting work our work on the same level as
Jesus's, but as his disciples, we should follow his example by
accepting pain as a natural partof doing great things for the
Kingdom. So I think sometimes we deal
(14:49):
with the idea of passion as a very superficial.
I just feel this thing in my heart to go and, and, and build
this thing, right. But the reality is that biblical
passion, and I would say the sustainable passion is way more
comfortable embracing discomfort, way more comfortable
in agony, way more comfortable in working through and having a
(15:12):
master's program and do another passport and then doing the PhD
program, right. That, that that is true passion
that will lead to sustain you interms of your vocation.
I think often times people are just like, what am I passionate
about? I'm passionate about basketball.
So I'm going to be a professional basketball player.
It's like, no, like that, that that's not how it works.
So I'm not sure if you want to speak into that idea of passion
(15:33):
with within the context of vocation, but I think it's it's
a huge one. And this is from the the chapter
3, the chapter on calling in my book Godly Ambition.
But yeah, what what are your, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah. I think our passion should be
investments in our character, inthat what excites us should
ultimately lead to an end that is not necessarily something
(15:56):
that is going to be safe financially savvy.
I remember there's this conversation I had with my wife
Melissa, when we were driving ina car.
I, I can picture where we were, although I don't know where we
were driving to or even actuallywhen this took place.
It was before we had kids. But I, I, she was kind of
struggling with the fact that, you know, she was graduating
(16:17):
teachers college and thinking about, you know, she's done all
this school, but she really wants to be a mom.
And does that mean that she's going to all the school was a
waste and us talking about the fact that no, all of that
education was an investment in herself in that she was learning
things that she would take on, even if it was just discipline,
right? Even if the degree was just
(16:39):
learning to be disciplined and learning to make sacrifices for
the purpose of this degree or, or what have you.
And that, that passion should lead to something that that
builds our character up in who we are.
And, and there's going to come atime, you know, that you kind of
(17:00):
had that refrain, something thatyou, you love so much that you
never work a day in your life. Well, if it's a true passion,
the danger is that you're going to work every day of your life
because, because you love it so much, right?
Because. You want to put.
All of you into it. And there's a danger in that
too, right? And that it can cause things
like burnout because you're the lines will blur if you make your
(17:24):
career and your passion crossover in that the in some
ways punching in and punching out in a 9:00 to 5:00 is way
easier. And so the, the level of that
passion, ultimately, like a Christ centered passion will be
one that is going to sanctifyingly move you towards
(17:45):
being conformed to the image of Jesus.
And no matter what that is. And you know, there's this line
from, I think it's in Martin Luther's table talks where he
says that the, that the godly cobbler, right, someone who
mends and makes shoes that his, his, his expression of his faith
(18:05):
isn't by sewing little crosses into the the tongues of shoes,
but by making really good shoes.And so all of those things that
we do should be an act of worship, no matter what it is.
It doesn't have to be overt. I had a conversation with an
individual and mentor of mine, Andy Bannister, who now works
(18:26):
out in the UK. And he was telling me when I was
talking with him about, you know, pursuing ministry in a
more formal way and him saying, you know what Wes, that as
someone who was currently in active full time ministry said,
you know, you might actually have more opportunities
evangelistically as a layperson than I do in that you can talk
(18:49):
to unbelievers in a secular workplace.
And that could afford more one-on-one relational evangelism
than me talking on a stage and and taking that to heart and
really thinking about that and the implications of that, that
sometimes we glorify something like full time ministry and fail
to realize that wherever God hasput you right, because we have
(19:13):
this grass is greener on the other side mentality.
But no grass is green where you water it, and it's going to be
green if you're investing where you are and you're pursuing, you
know, not for our own sake, but for the sake of the Kingdom.
I love that what what I feel like you exhibit well is the
counter of what we see in society today.
(19:35):
We see a lot of folks who aspirefor influence without expertise.
And one of the beautiful things is that you have the expertise.
And it's because you had the expertise that then you
developed the influence. And I think that that's been the
beautiful part about watching your journey.
So when you say that, I instantly think of moments you
want Joe Rogan, you with Andrew Schultz, you having these
(19:59):
conversations with folks who perhaps aren't waving the banner
of Christianity or Jesus just yet.
But you're in an evangelistic setting that yes, had you just
been in a full time ministry context, preaching from stages,
which which all of that is amazing, the same doors to
evangelize wouldn't have opened.And So what do you make of the
(20:23):
space where we're at, where we have influence without expertise
as kind of the the North Star? Unfortunately that that that
drives a lot of people in today's climate.
Yeah, I, I think that's dangerous because I think what
it will often force people to dois make shortcuts that
ultimately will not benefit thempersonally or, you know, it's,
(20:51):
it's like, it's like cutting corners in the building of a
bridge. You know, you don't cut corners
when you build bridges because if the bridge does not have a
firm foundation, if the engineering isn't sound, well,
the bridge is going to collapse and everyone on the bridge is
going to end up in the river. And that's that can have
(21:15):
ramifications that go beyond simply the bridge breaking like
it can lead. People can have a negative
influence on on their lives, right?
They could die. And so it's, it's making the
small progressions of 1st and, and that's why I said earlier,
you know, it's investment in yourself.
(21:36):
You shouldn't cut corners on your character.
You shouldn't cut corners in theway that you invest in yourself,
whether that's with your health or whether that's with your
family or whether that's with your career, because it's, it's
just not worth it. And the limelight isn't all it's
crack up to be. And the lie of the influence is
(21:58):
that you are the sum of your actions.
You're not the sum of your actions and, and society is
going to tell you that, but it'sit's not true.
And so God is going to use you no matter what position or
status or vocation that he has LED you in.
(22:20):
And you know, we're called in Scripture to lead a quiet life,
and pursuing the limelight can be dangerous because it's the
opposite of that. Yeah, it's like, it's like
pursuing money for the sake of money instead of pursuing money
as a byproduct of being effective at something and
having a craft that's valuable in the marketplace.
You're just, you just want the end result without the process
(22:42):
of what it takes to deliver. It's like pursuing being jacked
just for the sake of being jacked.
It's like, yeah, you could take a bunch of drugs and you could
take a bunch of stuff to get yousuper jacked, but man, that
comes with consequences. Not outside of the vanity and
the body dysmorphia that many bodybuilders end up dealing
with. Like you're pursuing something,
trying to just get to the end result without the the process
(23:05):
transforming you from the insideout.
So there's nothing wrong with becoming super fit.
There's nothing wrong with earning money.
There's nothing wrong with becoming successful.
It's just if you're going after the end result and not embracing
the process, it could be very, very detrimental to your, to
your health. Right.
So I think that's the part that a lot of folks aren't
calculating for. One of my favorite verses in the
(23:26):
Psalms is Psalm 24/1, which saysthe earth is the Lord's and
everything in it. And you mentioned the idea of
stewardship earlier, right? And so sometimes that word like
stewardship, it sounds like a lofty Christian term, but the
idea of stewardship is quite simply living out that verse.
It's living out the idea that God owns everything.
(23:47):
God owns me and, and, and my life is not my own and my body's
not my own and my family's not my own and my career is not my
own and my influence is not likenone of it is mine.
It's all on loan to me by God tomanage and steward it in a way
that brings glory to him. Similar if I was asked to house
sit for a buddy of mine that hasan A beautiful mansion and he's
(24:09):
like, Hey, I'm going away. There would be some expectations
for me to not throw parties to make sure I tidy up, to make
sure I go check the mail to, to make sure I'm taking care of his
place, right. And so the idea of stewardship
is sometimes we miss that our lives and not our own that, that
we think that, that we're, that we have main character syndrome,
right? But when you look at it from the
(24:30):
lens of stewardship, it's like none of this, this is mine.
This is all given to me by God to manage onto his glory.
Can you speak a little bit into that with regards to a holistic
picture of all these different elements that people are after?
People want to earn more money. They they want to be in better
shape. But if you're just pursuing
those things without the proper anchoring, again, it can lead us
(24:52):
into some some some trappings that become worldly.
Yeah, I think even if we have good motivations, if our our
methods by attaining those motivations are incorrect, then
the ends justifying the means will always become complicated,
right. If you, you want to get jacked
and you want to get strong, so you you take all the drugs
(25:12):
prematurely and and you compromise your health.
Well, sure, you might feel strong in, you know, for however
many months you're taking a cycle of whatever's going on
there, but it's it's not going to actually make you a healthy
individual. It's not going to lead to a
flourishing life. It's going to compromise your
(25:33):
health. It's going to you know,
physically and mentally and you're going to damage yourself
and and people around you. It's so that the stewardship is
exactly what you said, Ruslan, understanding that these things
are given to you for the purposeof you glorifying God, that all
(25:55):
of our acts professionally, personally, they're acts of
worship. And so if we can see our lives
within the framework of a Worshipful mindset, then that's
going to change our perspective on how we do things.
It's going to, it's going to recalibrate our understanding.
(26:16):
Of course, we're we're not goingto do that.
Well, we, we endeavour to do it,but you know, that's why, I
mean, I remember reading recently a theology of sleep and
it basically saying like, there's a reason why you turn
into a sack of potatoes for like8 hours every 24 hours.
(26:36):
It's because God is reminding you that you, you need to slow
down, you need to rest. You know, there are limitations
to who you are and that's a goodthing.
And the stewardship part of thatis understanding your
limitations and handing those over to God and letting your
life be that Worshipful reflection of how you can
(26:58):
glorify Him in all things small and large.
Yeah, yeah, no, that, that that's amazing.
I think the, the way that I am am trying to bridge this
together for people as people are are looking at what is their
calling, what why are they here.The way I'm trying to fuse this
together is that stewardship andgodly ambition in my framework
(27:21):
are interchangeable, right? Like godly ambition, that
healthy ambition that is anchored in Jesus, anchored in
his word, is ultimately reflected and and made revealed
to the rest of the world in the idea of stewardship.
I really want you to pick up my brand new book, Godly Ambition.
You can get it at whatever retailer you prefer.
We have links pinned below. It comes out September 9th, but
(27:44):
right now if you pre-order it, you can go to
mygodlyambition.com. After you pre-order it, you can
get a screen screenshot of your receipt.
Go to mygodlyambition.com, hit claim pre-order access and
upload your screenshot to get the first 3 chapters along with
the intro chapter and an Ambition Action worksheet to
help you work through how do youdiscover your purpose and your
(28:05):
calling now? So this is available right now.
This will get emailed to you as soon as you pre-order it again.
The link is pinned up in the comment and in description
below.
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