This Demonic Practice Has Infiltrated the Church & Disguised as "Science"

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Because new age. It's the red dude with a
pitchfork and the ponytail. New Thought is made to look and
sound Christian. This is where it will get you.
I see in the church today two polar opposite examples and
views on finances one extreme isthe prosperity gospel.
God wants you to be rich. The other extreme Mike Winger
Calvary Chapel pastor. You said that you love that he's

(00:22):
going nuclear on Todd, Todd White, him not having told a lie
in 11 years, not lusted after a woman in in 11 years,
positioning himself as this likesuperhero Christian with
superpowers because. This is like the biggest push
back I get is whether it's Bill Johnson, whether it's Todd
White, Kenneth Copeland, whoeverit is, is the biggest pushback

(00:45):
is Bruce LON. I sat down with Melissa
Daughtry, a Christian author andYouTube who is an expert in New
Age and New Thought theology infiltrating the Christian
Church today. We got into some of the ways
that we've seen this manifested within the Christian Church
today. Specifically, the influence of

(01:05):
the New Age on the prosperity, health and wealth gospel, the
backswing of that turning into what I call the poverty gospel,
and ultimately why Christians need to be on alert for these
little subtle heresies that keepsliding in to so many people's
view of God. But before we get into that,
guys, my name is Ruslan. This channel exists to
encourage, empower and inspire you to live a life that blesses

(01:26):
God. So if you're new here, if you're
not new here, hit that subscribebutton.
Huge percentage of you to watch this channel, unfortunately, or
not subscribe. Let's jump into the video.
We were talking about new age, new thought people.
New age, new thought. And them having some degree of
real powers, yes. And does that then verify the
root of the faith or does that verify all the conclusions of

(01:47):
the faith? I'm so glad you brought up
pragmatism. Yes.
And yeah. We would just say it's
pragmatism, Yeah. A lot of it is pragmatism, but a
lot of it is woo woo wiggity waxstuff.
OK, we're talking about. I mean, we'll get into like
defining the two, but I mean, I read a lot of like really
boring, dusty history books, newthought history books and and

(02:07):
testimonials and and books that I grew up with because this is
this goes back to. You grew up in this whole like,
new age, new thought. Insanity.
And I thought it was new Age, but I, I didn't know there was
words for these things. It just sounded Christian.
It looked Christian. It looked really cool.
I mean, I'm talking about spiritual experiences, really

(02:28):
interesting things happening in my childhood that I didn't have
an explanation for. And I got a I liked that stuff.
I got attracted to that. And I thought, you know, more
spiritual experiences equals, Hey, you're favored more in some
sort of spiritual realm. And Jesus was an example of
this. And if Jesus could do it, so
could you and some right. So there's lots of lots of

(02:51):
Christianese. That's not new Age, though
sometimes it can overlap. But one of the books that I read
in my research, the entire thing, all this book is, is
testimonials of people who have been healed and gotten wealth
through their right thinking they're not Christians.

(03:11):
It's a new thought book. And so, yeah, before we got on
this is where, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So, so I would say that's. What we were talking about.
One of two things. One, it is possible that the
demons or the Elohims of of likeMichael Heizer's talking about
the Elohims. I'm sure you sat with some of
this stuff. So there's, there's these
demonic angelic weird forces called Elohims and I think it's

(03:32):
possible that those have powers,enough power to give people
stuff. I think that's, that's one
possibility. Another possibility is that the
God of Yahweh threw him a bone because he's a good God.
Like that, that that's possible.Someone could have been healed
because they're a good God. In terms of the wealth aspect,
this is where I would say the idea of like manifestation, I

(03:57):
think it's nonsense, right? Like, I don't think my thoughts
become things. I do think if my, if I just my
thinking and my paradigm moves from scarcity to gratitude, that
if I move from wanting to control everything to being OK
with the universe or whatever term we're going to use, I do

(04:18):
think that those aspects can help someone become the type of
person to build and start something to make them more
wealthy. Right.
So it was meaning there's something happening in the
practical, in the, in the, in the real practical things, but
they're attaching it to like, well, I thought this thing, I
made a vision board and then voila, now I'm a millionaire.
And it's like, no, no, no, it's not the vision board.

(04:40):
Is that your thoughts? It's you thought it and then you
did it. You went and had a plan and you
built it out and you did the thing that you thought about.
And that's why there was, there was movement.
That's why disagree. You thought would adamantly.
Disagree, they would say it's just their thoughts.
New thought builds on the idea of your thoughts.
It's funny you say thoughts becoming things.
That's actually a old age new thought term.

(05:04):
That is new thought in a three words.
Thoughts are things because yourthoughts are powerful and can
actually create your reality andit has a lot to do.
It's more than it's what you. I'm glad you said it though,
because it's more than just thinking positive to them.
It's in this movement anyway. It's not a religion, it's a
philosophy of thinking, and it builds an idealism, which is

(05:26):
this way of understanding epistemology, what's true.
And so if what's true is something like the material
world is a response to our thoughts and our mind, and
there's a spiritual realm which is really the true, this is
where it gets really Gnostic. That's like the truest part of

(05:46):
you. That's the truest part of
everything. So if there's something wrong in
the physical realm, you bring itforth from the spiritual realm.
And you do that through your thoughts, words and feelings.
You with your spoken word. Thoughts, words and feelings,
yes. OK, there's power in that and
and I'll do one more. The one thing about new thought,
a big thing about it is it misuses not only scripture in

(06:11):
Christian terms, but it misuses science.
OK, so think of think of this. Have you ever seen like on
Instagram or on Tiktok, Tiktok people maybe saying, hey, if
you, you know, the vibrational frequencies of your words, if
you say it like this or if you listen to music on this
frequency, the vibrations and that that go out into your cells

(06:31):
will actually change and, and heal you.
Or maybe there's a certain vibration in this oil, this
whatever it is, your words can actually physically react to the
other frequencies and vibrationsaround you and create, you know,
and by the way, it's quantum mechanics backs this up.
So this. Neuroscience is tuned to four, 4

(06:54):
Hertz and yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that kind of gets
mixed in with a lot of New Age stuff.
But New Thought is really known for misusing neuroscience,
quantum mechanics. It can get really wiggity wack,
but that's how they back it up. They say it's scriptural and
scientists. Yeah.
So it's interesting because I dothink like thinking positively
can help practically. I think the flip side to that is

(07:15):
like I think of people and I'm not this is not an endorsement
or saying that he has the standard.
And I think he probably has slidinto some of this stuff, but he
also contrast this by the idea of staying paranoid.
So Patrick with David who built the MLM also is big on like stay
paranoid. I've heard of this guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He runs value tainment and he
it's. OK, I'll put this in my roof on

(07:36):
expose video. Yeah, it'd be great.
So he talks about, yeah, you gotto think positive, but you also
got to be paranoid. So I think there's people who
become successful not because they're thinking positive,
because they're paranoid and they're actually operating from
this like hardwiring of like everything in my, my life may
collapse if I don't keep performing and doing XY and Z

(07:58):
and that becomes. Paranoid that like you have to.
Yeah, like, like, like your competition and business and
your enemies. I see they're working right now
and you're relaxing. Like, you better work, you
better grind harder. Like, like it's almost that that
paradigm. Like have you seen my video on
MLMS or did you even know I madeone?
No, I don't think I'm. It's interesting you mentioned
MLMS and him. Yeah, a few people have brought

(08:18):
him up and I never heard of him before.
But my whole point with MLMS is,you know what is, is it a
pyramid scheme? All these things.
But also the part that I wanted to jump into is why all of them
have new thought books for training.
Yes. Yeah.
Yes, and so it's all about the mindset, the mind, power and a
lot of them like power of positive thinking.

(08:38):
Norman Vincent Appeal you have Napoleon Hill.
Napoleon. Well, he was a he was a scammer,
right? Oh my word, have you seen my
video on him? I have seen a bunch of videos.
I don't know if I've seen your videos.
Yeah, that guy was a dirtbag. He was, he like made it all up
basically, right. Like there was like he had all
these like interviews with thesehigh profile people and no, none
of that stuff was true or, or itdoesn't look like it was true.
Doesn't like he ever came into contact with Carnegie.

(08:59):
Here's. Here's what he did.
OK, Here's what I think NapoleonHill did.
Have you ever, like, met somebody from a distance that's
just super famous? OK, then turn that, take that
story, right? So maybe you see somebody from
far, you're like, oh, I got a picture, you know, and you say
you exaggerate that story into we're best friends now.
We call each other every day andwe all know on some level maybe

(09:21):
somebody that's done that, maybewe've done it.
Napoleon Hill was notorious for this and he was an opportunist
in that regard. I went into my deep dive on him,
not realizing just how scammy hewas, but I didn't, I didn't
really want to go over all of that in the video, but I had to.
But yes, his his book, his beliefs, he was like a part of a

(09:43):
metaphysical cult there for a while.
They used his book as one of thereligious texts for it, and it
was a New thought cult that thatused it.
But the that book is so problematic because a lot of
Christians read it, but they don't realize that there's this
belief system, this new thought beliefs that are underneath

(10:04):
everything. That's not everything, but a lot
of things that are being said. So you take the business advice
and it's just what you were saying with thinking positive.
You have this good stuff that's kind of being sold along with
it, this the spiritual stuff. And you kind of can't separate
the two at some point. Yeah.
Yeah, he wrote. Oh, this is handy.
Look at this. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Where?
Where The answer is the book. Oh my gosh, right back.

(10:25):
Think and grow rich, yeah? Think and grow rich, which was,
I mean, Napoleon, this, this washuge.
So a little bit about my background.
People may not know this. Yeah, this right here.
Were you in an MLM? I was in an MLM, yeah, yeah.
So in 2023, some of my friends. This was recent. 20 Sorry in

(10:47):
2003. Gosh, what about that the stone
loose LON comes out as an Emma Lemmer.
That would get some videos. Made it's just great.
It's yeah, I'm getting stuff from my exposed video.
Thanks. So in 2003 I was about to turn
18 and some of my friends got into doing prepaid legal at the
I think it's changed to legal Shield.

(11:09):
Oh yeah, remember this? I've heard of this. 30 bucks a
month gets you access to some legal services.
So if you get pulled over, if you need to fix a ticket, it was
actually a a good idea like likeAI guess a lawyer, almost like a
access to a lawyer or a legal aid armored trainer.
Basically, most people don't useit.

(11:30):
But if you need a contract reviewed, if you need a fix a
ticket dealt with all these sorts of things.
And so yeah, my buddy, it was actually kind of weird.
One of my really good friends who's doing really well in media
now, like he's doing like TV shows, he ends up recruiting me
on the day I turned 18 and I started doing these legal

(11:51):
shield, called prepaid legal at the time, and I actually made it
up to be a manager. Within six months I was a
manager totally CUV. And an MLM.
And I read some of this stuff like I remember, Eat that frog.
I remember Robert, Robert RobertKiyosaki, right?

(12:12):
Rich dad, Poor dad. I remember I listened to Power
of Positive Thinking and I remember reading some of this
stuff and to me, I just came to the conclusion of like, I was
making music at the time. And I just said this is taking a
lot of time and it's asking me to like recruit my friends and
family, which feels icky. And if I'm going to ask my

(12:33):
friends and family to do anything, I'm going to ask him
to come to my rap show for my album release party and sell him
a ticket for that before I ask him to go to this Monday night.
Rah, rah thing about how you canbecome a millionaire through
selling prepaid legal. Like it just it just didn't make
sense to me. It's like, no, no, I could.
I don't like this. This is this feels weird, you

(12:54):
know, but there was some aspectsof it that around mindset and
some aspects like principles around finances that I think
we're valuable. But it what there was a lot of
this like, yeah, your thoughts are things, vibrations,
emotions. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait. This is a there's a line we're
crossing of like, hey, we can gleam practical wisdom from the

(13:15):
Proverbs I think are helpful to building something versus we're
really following like a false paradigm that doesn't even line
up with anything remotely in theChristian worldview.
And this is my big problem with MLMS is that you can go and do
whatever you want with whatever your time.
But my issue is that spiritual aspect gets into a lot of

(13:36):
Christian spaces because a lot of MLMS tell a lot of Christian
terminology. Did you come across that?
Like, did they OK? I'm not surprised.
There's a lot of Christians thatgot recruited.
There's a lot of Christian language.
It's just another way that thesenew thought beliefs, you know,
and we're kind of halfway into like we're, we're into this.
But I actually kind of want to define this a little bit more

(13:58):
because it keeps saying this term, but I feel like people who
are listening are like, what areyou talking about?
Yeah, because most of us will probably miscategorized new
thought as New age. OK so tell me the difference.
What is New Age and what is New Thought?
New Age is probably more recognizable to you.
OK, If you were to go into, you know, a a new age shop, you
would walk in and probably see tarot cards.

(14:19):
You would see chakras, crystals,yeah, even crystals.
You know, even though the energyand the frequencies can kind of
overlap, you know that that kindof belief system, numerology,
astrology, Reiki, yoga, karma. Would we say like Hinduism is,
is new age? Yeah.
Hinduism. Buddhism.
Buddhism. OK.
You're talking about like more eastern and origin, so the.
Universe is God, yeah, and there's one consciousness.

(14:43):
And you have nonduality even though there's.
No distinction between creator and creation.
Yes, so from a worldview perspective, new age would be
more pantheistic, right? So everything is God.
Everything is God, OK? A new thought would be more pan
entheistic OK, which I think is a cop out.
In my opinion. It's like a unholy marriage

(15:03):
between pantheism and theism. OK because it still makes you
separate from the creator, but you're still the creator.
Interesting. Kind of annoying to define, yeah
if I'm honest. But that would be what where new
Thought would say is that and, and well, let me go into that
actually, because new thought would be more Gnostic in origin.

(15:24):
They claim to be Christian. It's a Christian concept.
They claim that. And I say they new thought as a
philosophy is, is saying and claiming that they are trying to
recapture the true teachings of Jesus and the, and the apostles,
that we are actually the same asGod in that sense that we share
in this divine DNA, this Christ consciousness, as they say, and

(15:49):
thoughts are things. I'm, I'm very impressed that
you, you mentioned that in, in this regard, because that's such
a new thought term. It's metaphysical Christianity.
And this is where the danger comes in because new age.
It's the red dude with the pitchfork and the ponytail.
New thought is made to look and sound Christian.

(16:10):
This is where it will get you. And This is why a lot of
Christians believe in a lot of these beliefs but don't realize
that it's what this actually is.This is why I lost my mind and
wrote this book. This is what happened to me.
I didn't realize that it was, itwasn't New Age though.
For a while I kind of just mixedthe two together and then I
realized, oh, these are two different movements that overlap

(16:30):
in certain places, but they are definitely different.
And so some things that people might understand is more new
thought. I mentioned a little bit before
affirmations like I am affirmations, declarative
prayers began with the new thought movement.
You're praying in the now. You're praying as if you had it
in the now and it will come intoyour reality, your Co creator

(16:52):
with God manifesting law of attraction, Christ
consciousness. And then I mentioned, you know,
vibrations and frequencies. Some people that would be more
new thought that our, you know, people think our new age would
be Oprah. Oprah's probably the best
example I could think of. Of new thought or new age new

(17:12):
thought, new thought. At a whole videos like she's not
a new Ager guys, she claims to be Christian, but that video is
just really showing people what new thought is and why people
they don't say hey, I'm a new thought or they say that they're
Christian. And this might get controversial
because a lot of people follow alot of prosperity teachings as

(17:32):
well. The health and wealth prosperity
teachings that we see in a lot of churches began with new
thought. The the the belief that we have
the right to be healthy and wealthy all the time began with
the mind cure movement in new thought that God never wills you
to be sick or poor. And what ended up happening in

(17:54):
that genesis of those beliefs isthat you, you had Christians and
this is what we were talking about before.
Say that you want revival and you want revival and, and
through signs, wonders, miraclesor whatever.
And you're seeing it over here in this realm that's not
Christian. And you're like.
Well, it sounds like Bethel. Yeah, sounds like Bethel.

(18:16):
We're going to redeem. You're going to manufacture.
We're going to redeem the new age and the new thought we're
going to it's going to be calledphysics of heaven.
You're. Exactly right.
We're going. To get behind it, we're not
going to actually read what it says, but then we're going to
repackage and repurpose it underthis ministry guide.
That belongs to the church. Imagine that in the 1800s,
because here I am just, you know, telling you about all the

(18:37):
people that really got attractedto the new thought movement
because they it worked. They Napoleon Hill.
He's one of the people that undergirded the self help
movement with a book that helpedmake you rich with not just
practical advice, but with spiritual wisdom because you're
a, you're all part of the divinemind.

(18:57):
You know, you, you can, you know, make this happen and so.
Well, I think the dangerous partabout what you just described is
that we've seen Bill Johnson sayBill Johnson, pastor of Bethel.
I cannot not allow for, I cannothave a theology that allows for
sickness. Yes.
And, and, and, and that sort of,I think, I don't know if you
said sickness and poverty, but you definitely, definitely said

(19:18):
sickness. That's the yeah.
And it's interesting because Bethel, you have the New
Apostolic Reformation, NAR, and I've yet to see an NAR prophet
or apostle that is not also Wordof Faith.
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, so I, I actually had to
look into this when I was doing my, I have a whole chapter on
Word of Faith. I had to think, OK, is the NAR,

(19:39):
is that the same thing as the Word of Faith?
No, it's not. It's an extension of it.
It's a another, you know, evolution in the chain of
events, if you will, of what NARis.
And also I took a picture of this in this book last night,
the same book I was telling you about that it's just
testimonials of healings. This is what they have to say
about New Thought. Not being New Age, it says New

(20:03):
thought is not new age. It's not a dogmatic system of
thought, philosophy or religion.It is the belief that health,
health, happiness and success are the birthright of every
child of God. New thought practices in the
21st century what Jesus taught in the first.
So they're trying to redeem and recover these teachings.
We see Jesus not as the great exception, but as the great

(20:24):
example of a fully awakened being who practice turning
possibilities into reality. And then they quote John 15/9
that you can do the same thing. Jesus did greater works.
He who believes, yeah, he who believes in me and the works
that I do, he will also do in greater works than me, so or
than these. And so it's so you can see
Scripture being used. You see them talk about Jesus.

(20:47):
This is not a Christian book. Man, there's so many.
OK, so. Affirmations.
I mean, we can go anywhere. So affirmations, Seeker
sensitive. I got to.
I'd actually be very curious foryou to to because I have a
section in my book where I'm referencing identity markers in
scripture to the believer. What do you mean identity

(21:10):
markers? I am saved.
I am redeemed. I am restored.
Those aren't affirmations. And and there's and you know, I
am the righteousness of God, right?
Like, so those are things and there's the whole section of
them, but they're not. I'm not framing this sort of
stuff as like you get up and look in the mirror and you say
these things to yourself. But I do think that so Jay

(21:32):
Warner Wallace talks about identity as outside in inside
out, right? So outside in identity would be
like, I'm a basketball player, therefore my value and my
identity isn't being a basketball player.
This is me in high school, right?
Inside out is I'm whatever I want to be, right?
So so this is what we're seeing a lot with the whole trans

(21:54):
thing. And like I feel this way on the
inside, therefore I'm said thing, right?
But then he gets into top down identity markers.
So when you're talking top down identity, that is what does God
say You are right, God declares your identity.
And so I think for the Christianidentity is super huge.
So anyway, I have a whole section in my book on identity
and I'd like to, I'd like to hear your thoughts on I'll show

(22:15):
it to you later is when we're talking about identity and we're
saying, no, no, no, my identity is not what I feel I am.
My identity is also not what I have the most utility for what
I'm known for in in the marketplace or in school or in
sports. My identity is actually what God
says I am according to Scripture.
And I think a lot of Christians don't know their identity and
don't know what Scripture says and, and, and talks about them.

(22:36):
And so I think that I don't, I don't think those are
affirmations. Like I don't think I'm, I'm
looking in the mirror and I'm saying these things.
I'm think I'm trying to remind the Christian of their identity
in Christ. You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, IA 100% agree with all of
that. OK, what do you think?
Declarative prayers, Declarations.
And why are they formed that way?
I don't know. From what I've always heard,

(22:58):
declarative prayer would be something along the lines of
we're going to declare what the scriptures already say.
You declare and decree. I don't like the decree.
I don't like the decree. I don't I don't like the
Melissa, I'm going to decree that you're going to get a
million subscribers this year. Like I think that's mad cringe
and nor do I think that's scriptural.
But if I say Melissa, you're, you're created in the image of

(23:22):
God and you have value even if you have 1000 views on a video,
If I, if you have a million views on a video like I, I, I
see there, there's a utility to decreeing what we already know
to be true in in Scripture. You hit it on the head.
It's basically, you know what's aligned with reality and what's
true about reality. Ah, OK.
So you mentioned, you know, a few things ontology, like the
nature of being we're talking about the nature of truth, all

(23:43):
these things. All of this matters in defining
what affirmations are and what affirmative prayer is.
So if we're going to take it as semantics, OK, I, and I actually
write about this in one of my chapters, is that there's a
woman that I know there's a victim's advocate.
She sees a lot of tough things. Every time I think of her, I

(24:05):
just, I love what she does. And I'm so grateful for her even
existing. And these women and children
will walk into our office and they'll see what we would label
as affirmations up on the wall. You know, you are loved.
You are, you know, this, this beautiful creature, you're all
these things. I don't see those as
affirmations, OK. OK, because you had me scared it

(24:26):
for a second. I was like, wait a minute.
I pulled up my book and I'm looking at this.
I'm like, is Melissa gonna make an exposed video?
So. So here's I'm.
Just here for the Ruslan Exposedvideo.
That's all I'm here for. I know you you probably will
make it into a Ruslan Exposed video after this.
Conversation. So, so here's like in my actual
book, like I am accepted. I am God's child, I'm Christ's
friend. I've been.
I've been justified. These aren't affirmations to me,
these are true statement. I am secure.

(24:48):
I am free from condemnation. I am assured all things work
together for good. I am significant.
Do you call these affirmations in your book?
No, absolutely no, absolutely not.
But this is so I say. This habit may seem basic, but
don't underestimate the power ofunder, of surrounding yourself
with God's Word. The Bible is a massive book, I
know. If you're looking for a simple
way to start, here's a list of verses compiled by Neil TD

(25:09):
Anderson that declare aspects ofyour Christ given.
Identity. This makes a full circle for me.
Right, so this is about declaring what what the
scripture say for you. This is interesting.
I just got asked by Neil T Anderson about this.
OK if if you're quoting something from his book.
This isn't from his book, this is a list that he compiled.
That's what it is then that. I was like, oh, I really like

(25:30):
this. Oh, that is.
So. Interesting added to some of
these. Well, you know, here it's it's
funny because whoever asked thatquestion, I'm looking at this
and I don't let me define what affirmative prayer is.
That would be good. This isn't this is this is very
important because you have affirmative prayer and positive
confession and I draw the best that I can do.
I draw these lines back to from the health and wealth Word of

(25:53):
Faith movement back to new thought in four areas, positive
confession, affirmations, health, wealth and little gods.
OK. And so because the Word of Faith
movement is compiled of three, you have the Pentecostalism and
then you have the faith care movement, and then you have a
new thought. And if those three things could

(26:13):
have a baby, you would get the Word of Faith movement.
So some of it is Orthodox. It's a cheap shot to say that
it's not all that it's all new thought or something like that,
but affirmations. In fact, I again I took a random
screenshots of what I thought I would need today, but let me
read this from a New Thought book talking about affirmations.

(26:37):
In New Thought we have a emphasis upon affirmative
prayer, positive statements of absolute truth.
This is capitalized absolute truth.
In New Thought, the truth is from within.
You have a true self and a falseself, and the true self is where
your your truth comes from. Emotions and your thoughts and

(26:58):
feelings are on the same level as reason.
This is so dangerous, right? We would see this as something
very dangerous. But to them, your feelings are
the the test of what is good andbad.
So if I'm walking into this roomand I don't feel a certain way,
that means, oh, my true self is trying to tell me something,

(27:19):
even if it's not real, even if it's not true.
OK, So that absolute truth, OK. And the power of the spoken
word, there's power in your words.
We learned that the spoken word is a mighty creative force
because it sets in motion powerful currents of thought.
Remember I was talking to beforein the ether that produce
external results in accordance with their quality and essence.

(27:42):
So rather than begging God, you do not ask God.
This is very important. You do not ask God for anything.
You do not beg. You do not.
You declare it. You affirm it because it's
already yours. OK, You don't.
You don't ask them for things that you seem to lack, which is
actually an expression of our lack of faith.

(28:04):
OK, that's a lack of faith. We make powerful declarations
that we already have. Or are those things which are
desired? That's heavy.
So, and that's just one definition.
Affirmations are how you do it is.
It's all part of like law of attraction stuff.
OK? You're affirming what you want
because it's already yours. You affirm in the now.

(28:26):
And it's. This is where your feelings
really come into play because that's what makes it more
powerful. And it actually shuts down a lot
of critical thinking. If you think.
Yeah, because if you're thinkingthat you don't have or that you
lack, then that's exactly what you you're taught you will get.
Yeah. So any anything that say say you
believe this stuff, OK. I would be looked at as a a

(28:50):
beacon of negativity of you getting results.
Say you have a healing that you're trying to get.
And I'm I see that you're not getting healed and you're
getting sicker. And in fact, you might die as
your friend. I'd go up to him like Russon,
buddy, you might want to go see a doctor.
You're you have no part of my healing.
You are part of the problem. You're bringing the bad vibes,

(29:13):
right? You like you're, you're bringing
forth a contradiction to what I'm having faith for.
And so I would be seen as like bad company that I would be
hindering that result to them. It's it's a vibrational thing,
it's a spiritual thing, it's a force thing.
But affirmations are spoken and I am statements for a reason.

(29:34):
Because whatever follows, that is what you are.
And you have to be what you showed me.
That doesn't, no. Because I don't got like, I'm
already healed and, and, and, and, you know, rich and wealthy,
that sort of stuff. So I think that's, that's
interesting. Well, you know, here's, here's
the frustrating part. And I think, I guess the the

(29:54):
burden for me and what what I'm attempting to do is that I think
everything you just described sounds like a perversion of
truth. Yeah.
And it's and it's tweaked just enough that on a on a surface
level, people won't know the difference.
Yes. And so unless they read your
book or unless they they they godeep on this stuff.
But it's just enough of a perversion of truth where some

(30:15):
of it it's like, yeah, well, yeah, words do matter.
Like you, you should be positive.
This was the hardest part of my book because you have to nuance.
It you got a nuance you. Cannot cheap shot this.
This was the hardest thing you're.
I'm glad you hit on that. Yeah.
And so for me, I go, OK, like ifwe're talking about finances,
right, I see in the church todaytwo polar opposite examples and

(30:37):
views on finances. 1 extreme is the prosperity gospel, God wants
you to be rich. The other extreme is the poverty
gospel, God wants you to be poor, right?
And it's both sides take passages out of context, out of
their historical context, right?Meaning that if I'm reading
Ecclesiastes, if I'm reading Proverbs, if I'm reading the Old
Testament, I think what people are missing is the macro system

(31:00):
of government is different. They're living under the judges
era or they living under a theocracy, They're living under
a king. So their context is different.
If you're looking at the New Testament, they're living under
Roman occupation that is trying to wipe out Christians to
totally different context. And I think they complement each
other in terms of like the theology of the New Testament of
money versus the theology of Proverbs, right?

(31:22):
They're not in contradiction. They, they they're in context.
So Jesus says don't store for yourself treasure in heaven.
What Proverbs says a righteous man leaves an inheritance for
his grandchildren, right? What is treasure?
Well, my identity is not in money, but I want to help my
kids buy their first home, right?
So these things work together. And I think what happens is we
have two polar opposite extremes.
We have prosperity. God wants you to be rich and

(31:44):
often times just Proverbs out ofcontext.
And the other is God wants you to be poor and God wants you to
suffer, removing the cultural context of what the disciples in
Jesus was living under and the reality that, yeah, you
shouldn't make money your God. But there's not a lot of
conversation where I would say someone like a Dave Ramsey that
I think provides a healthy balance of, hey, God wants you
to live below your means, actually.

(32:06):
And he also wants you to save. And he also wants you to be very
generous. And he also wants you to have a
budget. And he also, right.
There's not a lot of conversations on this.
That's creating a robust view. Yeah.
And so, but what happens is if you don't have a robust view of
what the Scriptures actually teach on a topic as polarizing
as money, as polarizing as success, as polarizing as
happiness, you then go to these crazy extremes.

(32:29):
And then people get get misled and stay stuck in a in AI would
say a dangerous path where neither extreme is helpful to
them. And I think, I think that is
where I go and I go it my opinion if the church taught
better on this actual financial literacy, like what is biblical
financial literacy really look like, right?
What are the principles? If we were to extract Scripture,

(32:50):
how would we talk about financial literacy?
It wouldn't be the prosperity gospel, but goodness gracious,
it wouldn't be. God wants you to be poor and
living, living. Who's teaching that, though?
The poverty gospel? Yeah.
I think there's a lot of pervasive poverty gospel in in
different Christian circles. I think something as simple as
looking at Acts and and ignoringthat that's a space and time
where they sold all their possessions and came together

(33:11):
and yet some of them still had property, right.
So Ananias and Sapphira when they lie to God.
Well, I mean, if you could die for preaching the gospel, I
mean, you might want to come up with a plan, right?
Right. But that's descriptive, not.
Prescriptive, descriptive, not prescriptive.
But also you see Ananiasis fire and Peter telling them, hey,
like you sold this property, like you could have held some of
it for your own. It was wasn't it yours?
Like that's what Peter's asking them And and you lied about the

(33:34):
amount, but you could have just been honest and said, Hey, we
kept some of it for XY and Z, right?
And so I think there's a lot of people that slide into this
like. I've never actually heard that
before. Oh, I see it all the time.
Try try talking about financial literacy on your YouTube
channel. I'm serious.
Try talking about talking about financial literacy.
Try telling Christians, hey, youneed to live on a budget, you
need to save, you need to live below your means, you might want

(33:56):
to consider retirement at some point.
And you should be and you shouldbe generous it.
Sounds like common sense to me though.
I'm SO. Confused, but but it's not
because, because there's so muchperversion of this stuff.
On the other end is when you, when you factor in Marxism, when
you factor in communism, when you factor in the system is
rigged, everyone's against me. Capitalism is bad.
There's a lot of this stuff that's crept into the church
where the actual view that building something is bad that

(34:19):
that, that, that acquiring to buying a home is bad.
It's it's very prevalent. Could be more of AI, see what
you're saying. Yeah, How that could be more of
like a cultural thing too. You're right.
Yeah. Try.
I promise you, try making them avideo.
Sure, let's do that. Try making a video of saying.
Hey guys, be smart with your money.
Don't overspend. Say hey, hey in life and sense.
Here's a great Melissa Doughty video in light of the prosperity

(34:42):
gospel. In light of the prosperity
gospel and how much we see the topic of money perverted, I
wanted to give you Melissa's 10 rules for handling finances
according to the Scripture. Yeah.
Make that video and try talking about saving.
Try talking about retirement. Yeah.
Try talking about investment. Yeah, you will get torched.
They will drag you and say you're preaching the prosperity
gospel. Guarantee.

(35:02):
That's the poverty gospel mindset.
That's Marxism. That's that's Marxism.
And then they got to own that because that's that's.
Kind of an overcorrection. That's so silly.
It is and so I think both sides are are so on the extremes and
unless there's, in my opinion, good T that's why I like Dave
Ramsey stuff. I think it's some of it's a bit
dated it in today's context. I think he does a good job of
creating like a balanced robust view of like, hey don't make

(35:24):
money your God, but at the same time acquire money to help
people and serve God. Yeah, and I think there's
warnings on both sides of those.I think that's such an
interesting point though, Ruslan, because it's like there
seems to be almost like you're more enlightened if you have
less money. Oh yeah?
Well, that Gnosticism, yeah, man, material world's bad.

(35:45):
Yeah, everything physical is bad.
And so you, you need to not worry, you need to, you know,
you're so heavenly minded that you're of no earthly good.
Yeah, right. I'm so Jesus coming back next
Thursday so. More spiritual.
I'm more spiritual. I'm going to pump my life.
I'm waiting for the rapture. Yeah, who cares about my kids or
my grandkids? And I would just say that's not
a biblical way to live. It's very interesting because
the only time I've ever come across that or in like cultish

(36:06):
religions, well, a cult straightup cult is Jehovah's Witnesses.
You can't live a certain way above your because Armageddon's
coming any day. And so if you have any extra
riches, you have to give it to Jehovah's, you know, Kingdom
and. I think there's a lot of
Christians that functionally live like that.
That functionally live. And so any any reference to
this, they think it's. Like a second hand guilt, right?

(36:28):
Yes, I can understand that. And then the whole other aspect
of here's the other thing, beingrich is not a sin.
I don't think being prosperous at all.
We live in America, man. This is such a prosperous
country. You have so much opportunity.
You want to go open a business tomorrow.

(36:49):
The goal of that is to become successful.
Now, as a Christian, what you dowith it, there's responsibility
there. That's right.
There's responsibility with it. But it's not a sin to be poor
and it's not a sin to be rich. That's right.
It's, it's, it's this whole level of you can be corrupted on

(37:12):
on that level if you're misusingit.
That's right. And that's why in my opinion,
if, if, if we're gonna grow and say we have money as Christians,
OK, say that you are financiallymore than financially stable.
Let's just say that you're making tons and tons of money
that you're you're above you guys live in California.
So, I mean, you guys are the poorest people here are probably
like the richest people in New Mexico where I live, but you

(37:36):
need more accountability around you.
That's the other problem though,is that if somebody is making a
lot of money and they're not using it correctly.
We kind of talked about this a little bit before we got on, but
leaders in positions of power who maybe they're abusing
finances, maybe they're spiritually abusive, maybe they

(37:59):
watch porn, maybe they're this, maybe they're that they're not
held accountable, maybe out of fear.
And so I think that there's the more money that you have,
sometimes the more problems you have.
But that also means that if you're a wise Christian, you're
going to set yourself up to havemore responsibility.
I love that. Well, shout to you for quoting A
notorious BIG. I wanted to go there but I'm

(38:20):
like, should I? No, I, I think that's, I think
that's, I think that's so wise. And, and this is, I guess in a
macro sense, I think about everything you just described.
And I think two things. One, I think anyone that's a
Christian business owner is going to have some degree of
wanting to minister and serve with the money that they're
acquiring through their business, right?
So I think of Chick-fil-A, Chick-fil-A is selling people

(38:42):
chicken sandwiches. It's not that deep.
But. But if you watch how they train
their young people and you watchthe degree of care and the
degree of service they do their their staff and that they do pay
them above minimum wage and thatthey do do very generous
packages when you move up the ranks and that you can own your

(39:05):
own Chick-fil-A if you go through their program.
And for $10,000 a month, you could be a fifty, $52,000 total.
You could be a 5050 investor where you have you're your own
operator. I got a buddy that's been with
them for 12 years. He just got his own store,
right? And they do so much for the
community and they give away so much food.
To me, that's a Christian business that is willing to
serve, which is what ministry often is, is serving in the

(39:29):
marketplace, right? I think that's good and that's
healthy. And I think that's necessary for
any Christian is doing anything and is successful.
Is are we actually serving people or not?
And are we actually here to helppeople on this side of eternity?
And I think Chick-fil-A does a good job of that.
I have a question about this. Tell me what you think about
secret churches. Secret churches?

(39:49):
Yeah, like secret churches that have a church growth model to
grow their churches. And they're very, very rich.
What do you do? Would define rich.
They're very, they make millionsand millions of dollars.
And this is a format, a model that has been created to grow.
Churches, and I'm not talking, let me be very careful with my

(40:11):
words here. I'm not talking about mega
churches. OK, OK, you can have a big
church and not have like a seeker model.
I'm finding that that's very interesting and good actually,
you having a big church that teaches scripture.
I'm talking about like the church growth model, the seeker
sensitive model. OK.
So I would say I don't know enough about the church growth

(40:35):
model and the seeker sensitive model.
Like I've heard of it. I probably started going to
church initially at a seeker sensitive type church, right?
Where we're going to accommodateand we're going to make you feel
comfortable. The, the flip side to that is,
is twofold 1. I started meeting these pastors,
right? So I was very critical of, of
mega churches in general. And then I became friends with

(40:56):
some of these guys and I startedwatching their life and I
started watching how they lead and I started understanding how
much they make. And like here's a real practical
example. We just did a tour video of
North Coast church. North Coast Church in Vista is
the biggest church in Vista. They actually coined the multi
site model and they're brought up in, you ever heard of the

(41:16):
rise and fall of Mars Hill? So they're brought up in the
rise and fall of rise and fall of Mars Hill.
When Drusco was going through all that stuff, he was at North
Coast down the street with LarryOsbourne trying to kind of get
some, some degree of healing andgetting getting his footing
back. Right.
This is not an endorsement of March, for the record.
And so they have the biggest church in I think the North
County, one of the biggest in San Diego, right?
And then we did a vlog on them and they were very transparent

(41:38):
about everything. This is how much we make.
This is how much goes here, thishow much goes here.
And you find out that a church that's generating $30 million a
year, the top three positions there, mind you, we're in
Southern California, cap at 150,000 a year.
As far as like you mean? The senior.
Pastor got it. Is not making more than 150 KA
year good. OK, that's that's I think very

(42:01):
ethical is personally living in Southern California.
I want them to make more. I want them to be able to send
their kids to college and I wantthem to be able to buy a home
and retire with dignity. Right.
And so I I talked to them about this sort of stuff and we went
in deep and then I had this conversation.
Oh, I'm forgetting the guy's name, but I'm having him on this
guy that, that that's doing a documentary series on the
religion of business. I can't remember his name.
Christian dude. And we had a conversation and I

(42:22):
said, he's like, man, mega church is bad, big church bad.
A lot of corruption in evangelical circles bad, the
tithe bad. And I'm like, OK, well, who do
you know in these circles? And he started telling me some
of these people, I was like, well, this is who I'm connected
with. I'm connected to North Coast.
The North Coast is the church that planted my church, rhythm
Church. And we're not a mega church.
I'm connected to this person, this person, this person.
And he goes, Oh, you're actuallyconnected to the guys doing it

(42:45):
right. Like the guy making the
documentary series exposing all of the mishandlings of finances
in church is like, no North Coast church is actually like a
beacon of hope and, and and financial responsibility.
They are the gold standard for how churches should handle
money. So I meet these people like I
meet Pastor Ed Newton from CBC Bible in San Antonio.
I meet N like I meet mega churchpastors and I go, yeah, they're

(43:06):
not at all how you would think they would be.
Now, I don't know it's your point.
I don't know if that's the seeker model.
I don't know if it's the growth model.
Pastor Chris Brown goes up thereand preaches for an hour every
Sunday and takes people through books of the Bible.
He's just a killer communicator and he he can crush him.
Does he do like exegetical teaching?
Oh yeah. Yeah, exegetical, cultural
context, what's happening. He's a great storyteller, so he

(43:27):
can go from setting the stage ofwhat's happening historically to
going into the scriptures and going deep into scriptures.
I mean, it's it's it's really good.
So anyway, I still have to say that the the more people I meet
like that, the the more I go. Yeah, that's not like the Rick
Warren. Let me find a topic that I want
to talk about and give you 3 verses where I don't even read
the full verse and I use a very watered down translation.

(43:49):
Right. And again, I've met Rick Warren.
I think he's a sweet guy. Not the same thing though.
Like the mega churches that I'm connected to are not that
they're not like. I'm just that's very interesting
and you know, I interesting thatyou can.
Separate. The two, yeah, thank you.
Separate the two because you're right.
That's why I'm saying it's a cheap shot to kind of just say.

(44:09):
Just lump them all together. Yes, and it's very interesting
you mentioned Rick Warren. Yeah, the the the church model,
the church growth model is very different when it comes to what
they teach at the pulpit though,too, because it is more life
application and not as exegetical, because it's
designed to attract the unbeliever.

(44:32):
You want the unbeliever to come to your church, which isn't bad.
That's actually a really good thing.
You know, we should want that. No, the reason why I'm asking is
because one of the other things I wrote about it was probably
one of the most controversial things in in my book was the
church growth model started withyou're out in California.
Have you ever heard of Robert Schuller, The Crystal Cathedral?

(44:54):
Oh yeah, yeah, I've driven past that before.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the Crystal Cathedral that
was like a big thing in 80s and 90s.
And Robert Schuler is credited with he's the positive thinking
pastor. He's a new thought pastor.
And Norman Vincent Peale like changed his whole was was a very
big pivotal figure and him changing his theology more

(45:14):
towards like a positive thinkingtype of message.
And he's credited as one of the people to design a church growth
model. And then he mentored other
pastors, directly mentored them.Who do you think one of those
pastors was? If I had to take a wild guess,
Rick Warren. Yeah, yeah, I bet.
That's why I'm that's why I'm like, wow, Ruslan had his
Wheaties today. Well, I mean, Saddleback is is a

(45:37):
behemoth out here in Orange County.
So they're they're huge of the end of this is also where the
Jesus revolution happened and Calvary Chapel came out of which
is some people would say similar, but yet Calvary.
Chapel is no very exegetical. Exegetical, right?
And there's and there's some bigCalvary chapels out there, but
they primarily preach word for word.

(45:57):
I mean like prime friend books in the Bible.
And I'm here for it. I think it is so cool.
And don't you think it proves the point that you can go to
these bigger churches? Like Christians actually want to
know their Bibles? We're so hungry for it.
And we have all these questions.And I think that if you have a
pastor that can sit there and tell you in modern language,
hey, this is what a wineskin is.Hey, This is why they had to do

(46:19):
sacrifices. This is why the temple existed
and put it in a context. I love it.
Yeah, we're going through the book of Acts at my church.
I'm at Rhythm Church, church inside.
So we're on like Acts 8 I think right now and it's been months
we're going. I mean, we're not even doing a
chapter a week, like it's like 6verses and then connecting it.
Yeah. OK.
So you brought up or I brought up Calvary Chapel, Mike Winger,

(46:40):
Calvary Chapel pastor or or not anymore, but initially was a
Calvary Chapel pastor and you said that you love that he's
going nuclear on Todd, Todd White.
I think he's going nuclear on a lot of people that probably need
a good nuke. OK, so let's talk about that and
let's talk about your impressions of the Todd White
situation. What do you think?

(47:01):
My impression, I'm here for it. Yeah, I, we talked about this
before we got on, But I have a fire in my belly over this topic
because I see so many leaders inpositions of power who are
protected. Nobody comes forth.
Nobody wants to kind of be that person that breaks away from the

(47:24):
tribe and looks like the bad guy.
And it is a tribalistic, you know, what it reminds me of is a
corrupted politics, OK? Like, you can't say anything.
This is going to get me in trouble, and I don't care in a
way. But you can't say anything bad
about the right right now as a Christian, right?
Oh, yeah, they'll come for you. Oh.
Yeah, they come for us every week.
Oh yeah. Oh.
Yeah. Oh, really?

(47:45):
What do you say? What do you do?
The the like the anti-Semitism on the right and the I think
racism rate the racism on the right, like Matt Walsh saying
young black men are more violent, which is not not like
you can't show that in the data,you know, And so like
generalizing entire group of people to say these people,
they're just more violent. And it's like, wait a minute,
wait a minute. This is 1% of black men are

(48:08):
committing violent crimes. Usually all the crime is done by
a small percentage of the community.
And so this idea that like it's,it's connected to that stabbing
situation in in Frisco, he's he should reach.
Out to him. Matt Walsh, he's not talking to
me. He's not going to position
himself because I did. I responded to his tweet where
he said young black men are disproportionately more violent.
And I said, if I were to tell you that white men are

(48:31):
disproportionately more likely to have sex with animals, to
abuse their animals, to commit drunk driving, to be serial
killers, to be school shooters, we wouldn't say white men are
disproportionately more violent.We wouldn't say that.
We wouldn't say this is a a white culture issue.
We would say this is a issue of a couple of crazy French people

(48:51):
that do some crazy French things.
And it's sad and that needs to be addressed.
And maybe it's a rural white country issue, but even that is
too broad, right? Like like it's not every white
dude in in on a farm isn't sleeping with cows.
See, but everything you're saying right now I don't think
is like bad, like you're not. You're just having a a
discussion about a position. Oh yeah.

(49:12):
Well, because it's easier to hyper generalize this
demographic of people in whatever way with Jewish people,
they're just sneaky and they're conniving and they're and that's
why they they hold all the powerand control the banks, right?
That's that's a lot of that stuff on the right.
And then there's right now with this whole situation, like I
think folks crashing out and making they're, they're doing it
under the guise if it's just culture, but you have to be

(49:33):
delicate with how you talk aboutculture, punchline black culture
or black people are not all intodrill music, Cardi B and, and,
and violence. Like that's not like, because if
you think that you don't know enough black people.
In my opinion, most black peopledon't live like that.
Most black people don't carry themselves in that way.
A lot of them don't like that style of music like WAP and all

(49:57):
this like this is this is not reflective of black culture.
Like it's a very specific pocketof a specific group of people.
And that could be addressed within certain pockets and
communities. Like we should address that of
what? Why is the gun, the gun, the gun
rate violence so high in Chicago, in Atlanta?
Like let's talk about that. But you can't just hyper
generalize and say black cultureis drill rap, gangster rap and

(50:21):
misogynistic women flaunting their bodies and objectifying
those and say that is then I canspread that out.
And so anyway, so I've gotten a lot of backlash.
Yeah, you got a little bit more.Yeah, I.
Got a lot of backlash. So anyway to come back, sorry,
and clip all that out because we're going to make this this
it's own clip the the Mike Ringer bit and Todd Todd, Todd
White. You connected it to politics on
the right and you said. Connecting it to the fact that

(50:42):
you can't. You can't criticize certain
things and certain people. You cannot criticize certain
things and certain people and the the fact that if you are are
in a position of power and leadership in the church, people
don't want to people have a hardtime calling that out.
Yes, and either. And the reason why I bring up,

(51:02):
you know, it reminds me of corrupted politics because it's
the same way. It's like, hey, you owe me a
favor or hey, I know this about you and you know this about me
or whatever it is. It's and then also you have the
whole man of God thing. Man or women of God, they are
God's anointed you, you can't say anything bad about them.
I am. I always say that it's device.

(51:26):
It's not divisive to call out bad theology.
It is not divisive to say, hey, you're teaching something that's
harmful to the body of Christ. That is unbiblical.
What's divisive is teaching it to begin with.
That's right. What's divisive is you coming
along teaching these unbiblical things, claiming it in the name

(51:47):
of God, not the person who's crying foul.
And then let me take it a step further.
Not only is it divisive to teachthose things, it's divisive to
protect those who are teaching those things.
And that is why I'm looking at what Mike is doing.
And I'm just, that's not easy for him to do.
People are going to come for him.

(52:08):
And it's almost like, you know what, I'm with you.
You know who do we need to protect?
Yeah, he he's done a few of these videos.
I think what makes Mike unique is that this is not the
overwhelming majority of his content.
It's not. He's a Bible teacher.
Yeah, he's a Bible teacher. So it's few and far in between
videos actually that will go outof Bethel or Kenneth Copeland or

(52:31):
right now Todd White. I'm sure there's something
coming out on Sean Bowles and and those videos are few in
between. So I think well, so when Mike
spends an 11 hour video talking about women in ministry, you
know what I mean? Which is like, I've never seen a
YouTube video that's 11 hours long and and into a video that's
a first by verse Bible study of Hebrews.
And then these other videos are kind of spliced in.

(52:51):
I think it lends more credibility to him as a as a
overall voice. Then folks that I say are
different, that like primarily exists to just criticize other
ministries, right. And again, I don't think there's
a time and a place for that as well.
But like, I think that's what gives Mike so much credibility.
So when he comes out and says, Hey, like Benny Hinn's a real,
real bad man, I go, OK, I trust you.

(53:13):
You know, so the Todd White thing, what was the most
shocking thing to you about thatentire revelation of the letter?
Those guys that don't know Todd White's former ministry group
and accountability put together a letter going over all of the
things, it's like 25 things or something crazy that they feel

(53:35):
like he did that is sinful or questionable.
And then they went to Mike Winger to kind of get the word
out about this and he individually interviewed all of
the people that have been affected.
We would I could say I would be comfortable using the word
victims and has put together a video going over that and and in
playing specific clips of Todd White basically alluding to
sinless perfection, alluding to being able to fast for 40 days

(53:59):
on just water and be healthier at the end of it.
There's some pretty wild stuff in it.
But what was the most egregious thing to you?
There's a lot, there's a lot that he goes over, but the one
that really stood out to me evenbefore you asked, before I had
to look this up to refresh my memory, was the embellishment of
the stories, the lies. This is particularly troubling

(54:21):
to me because think of the people.
This can shipwreck somebody's faith.
Think of it for a second of somebody who believes that they
have this is this is a lot. Hold on.
Let me put my brain together because it all kind of clicks
together for me. And in a sequence, if you have

(54:46):
had a miracle or a healing or something that was connected
with Todd White and that broughtyou to Christ and then all of
this stuff comes out. Then all of a sudden that faith
that you thought you had, which you know it is in God, but it

(55:06):
makes you question. It makes you question, well,
this is from God and this is a man of God.
This is why this stuff, it makesme so angry.
If you're going to speak for God, do it with the fear of the
Lord in your belly. You, you do not do this.
This is something that's so serious because look at all the
people that are probably going to be having just a a crisis of

(55:29):
their faith because Todd White, you know, is a scumbag behind
the scenes. And this is my major issue with
a lot of teachers and in power if you can.
And then the other issue was theaccountability.
If you don't have somebody keeping you accountable or
you're pushing them away, this is where abuse can run rampant
and spiritual abuse, any kind ofabuse, which Speaking of abuse,

(55:52):
the other one was that he, I guess he gave his daughter a
black eye, like he actually physically harmed his daughter.
And there's, in other words, it,it's, it's a cesspool of pride.
If we cannot hold ourselves accountable and if we think that
God talks to us and it makes us some sort of spiritual authority
and it makes us more important than others, you better fear the

(56:15):
Lord when you speak. You are you are in a position
where a lot of people are going to trust you.
They're going to follow you. They're going to believe that
what you're teaching is biblical.
And now there's probably a lot of people that are questioning
God because of the actions of this man.
And he's not the only one. Expose them.

(56:35):
This is not a bad thing. So the lack of accountability
was the other one. And this is, this goes back to
what I was saying before. And one of my biggest issues
with this whole thing is that it's divisive to protect those
who are teaching bad theology. We need to check our hearts on
why we why are you protecting somebody?

(56:56):
Why are you protecting an abuserin, in ministry?
Then you are part of the problem.
And I think that that's the lackof accountability aspect.
And people are afraid. Think of this like, I'm sure
that you and I could think of positions where we should have
called something out, but we didn't.
And we're looking at what's thatgoing to do to our reputation?

(57:17):
Reputation. What is that going to do with
our friendship? How is this going to affect me?
What do they know about me that can come back?
You know, think of like high school, right?
Brenda's over there saying something about Jillian.
And I can't say anything to Jillian because Brenda knows
this, You know, it's, it's just this really this way of thinking
that's going to cost us something that I think enables

(57:37):
people to protect sin instead ofexpose it.
Yeah, yeah, I think the idea of him not having told a lie in 11
years, not lusted after a woman in in 11 years, positioning
himself as this like superhero Christian with superpowers.

(57:59):
His Cape flowing in the wind. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I was like, oh
man, that's really, really rough.
And even when he would do these 40 day fast, he would drink
protein shakes on the fast. And I'm like, that's not a fast,
fam. Like that's not a water fast.
Like I can understand if someonegoes, hey, I'm going to have one
meal a day to just get my nutrients and then the rest of

(58:20):
the time I'm not going to eat. OK, that's, I guess that's more
of a fast, right? But to say I go, I'm going 40
days with just water and you're looking all puffed up and thick
in it. Look how spiritual I am.
Look how spiritual I am. God does it.
You know, I think that that was pretty crazy.
But then to juxtapose all of that within finding out that he
allegedly spent money on liposuction and TRT was crazy.

(58:43):
I'm like, wait a second, these two things our lot like this is
1 is an omission, you're omitting details.
The other is you're positioning yourself this way while not even
really doing the work on the health side to maintain the
physique that you claim you wantto have, and you're going and
getting liposuction. Let's play a fun devil's
advocate game, because I can seethis happening in the comments

(59:03):
section. Ruslan, look at all the good he
does though. Look at this man of God.
Look at all the things he. He healed me, He's given me.
He paid off my house. He went and healed my friend.
What do you got to say to? That bad people can do good
things, right Jesus in Matthew 7says like those of you who are
evil know how to give good giftsto your children, right.

(59:26):
If your if your son or daughter asks you for food, you're not
going to give it a snake, right?You're not going to give it a
rock. And so I think of Matthew 7.
So it's like people who don't know Jesus or people who are
manipulating their faith in the public, public persona, I think
can can still do good. Like I think someone.
Can a man of God perform a miracle and heal me?

(59:48):
Can it? Can it?
I think God can heal you. But that man of God, he speaks
to God. These things can't be true
because. I think God.
I think God can use very flawed people to do miraculous things
and they not know God or they bein a really rough spot with God.
How do we know who's a true teacher then versus a?
False 1 So I would say it's the,it's the, it's the, it's the.

(01:00:12):
Was it First Timothy? Watch your life and doctrine.
Is it first or second? Is it first, maybe second
Timothy? It's the requirements for an
apostle, I think an elder, and it says watch your life and
doctrine, right? So there's this idea of life and
doctrine. So I think someone that is
walking in what God has for them.

(01:00:33):
I think it's a combination of isyour life congruent to the
things you you say you believe, and what are the things you
actually believe in that they fall within the lines of
orthodoxy. Would you agree that's like
fruits. Yeah, fruit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll know them, but I would
say know them by their fruits. I got to add a caveat to that,
because Mormons have fantastic fruit.
Yeah, I was just going to say Mormons have fantastic fruit.
Yeah, they're, they're the sweetest, so kind and they have

(01:00:55):
great fruit. But I would say if we're looking
at a fundamental view of who of their Christology and who Jesus
is, that is not the, the, the, the eternal Co, eternal Son in
Scripture that we see. And I think fruits mean more
than just good works, because then the Pharisees had good
fruit. Sure, sure.
Yeah. That's why I said life and
doctrine, like, like life and your life, your fruit, the fruit

(01:01:15):
of your life as well as your doctrine and which you believe.
And, and I don't mean like on everything, 'cause I think you
can get very myopic and like youfind one thing you disagree with
someone on and then you throw itall out.
But I would say like, do they generally hold to the plain
things and the main things of Scripture?
If they generally hold to those things and there's fruit and
evidence of, of repentance in their life, then I would say,
OK, I, I, I would be OK with that.

(01:01:36):
I may not agree with them on everything, but I would be
comfortable with saying that's aman of God.
Because this is like the biggestpush back I get is whenever,
whether it's Bill Johnson, whether it's Todd White, Kenneth
Copeland, whoever it is, the biggest push back is, well, look
at all the good they've done. You know, look at look at this,
look at that, you know, that's aman of God.

(01:01:57):
And I think that I think the locks stay on for so many
reasons. And I I to kind of break away
from that. And I think that's one reason
why they have such a culture of protection around leaders.
And it's not just in the Todd whites of the world.
This is this is an issue that can happen in any church and and

(01:02:17):
protect those. And this is also another reason
why I think it's, it's always confused me because you'll see
somebody do ministry with somebody who's like a heretic.
And I'm like, well, how did thathappen?
What's going on here? And I do think that it has a lot
to do with people kind of wanting to build a bridge, but
in building that bridge, they compromise.

(01:02:40):
It ends up being a synchronistictype of relationship instead of
kind of staying in, staying in that lane and perhaps having a
conversation about theology. Yeah.
But yeah, that that the tribalism, I think can create a
mindset of compromise. Yeah, well, I think the tale
sign with Todd White was always these.

(01:03:00):
What even is that? What am I?
Those are the little toe shoes. These are toe shoes.
You know, the toe shoes that arelike really popular in fitness a
couple years ago. Oh.
Thank God those fell out of. All memory, not for Todd.
So I made a joke a long time agowhere I was like, oh wait,
something always felt funny about the guy.
And I said it's in the shoes. I said the shoes, these, these,
these were a tail sign that something was not right with

(01:03:23):
Todd White. You can actually tie those up.
That's like, that's not right, man.
Yeah, that was. Anyway, that's a.
That didn't make the the Mike Winger video.
Unfortunately that should have those shoes.
Are the tail signs something? Something.
Yeah, I think I I, I agree with you.
I think there's AII guess my my struggle sometimes is what are

(01:03:46):
the things that I think the things that make someone a
heretic and the things that makesomeone heterodox Maybe or or or
Hey, I don't agree with this. Yeah, with you.
However, I'm not going to mark you mark and avoid you.
Majoring on the minors. Majoring on the minors.

(01:04:07):
So like, I think there's been a push back from some folks in the
cessationist world where anyone that believes God can heal and
God can move and God can prophecy through people today
that charismatics generally are like out, right.
And so I've seen some of that and I go, yeah, I think that's a
bit too broad. So hold on, clarify that.

(01:04:28):
So you mean that there's some cessationist who would say that
there's heretical beliefs if youbelieve that the gifts have
continued? Yeah, like if you watch the
cessationist documentary, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say
it's a primary issue for them, but they put it really high up
there. Is is is hey, it's like if you
believe there's modern day prophetic words, not prophets,
prophetic words, right, that youare potentially following

(01:04:51):
another gospel like you're following another Jesus.
And I would say, wait a minute. OK, so let me get, let me.
Let me give you. Oh, yeah, this is, and I'm not
saying they would come out out right and say this right, but
there's these hyper generalizations made by John
MacArthur who would, who would kind of allude that charismatics
and prosperity gospel folks are synonymous.
Charismatic and Word of Faith are synonymous.

(01:05:11):
And they're not, not, not synonymous.
There's a, there's a, there's a spectrum there, right?
There's a massive spectrum there.
Let me give you a very practicalexample.
So I have friends who I openly disagree with on this stuff.
I've had conversations on their platforms and my platforms about
deliverance. Oh, I disagree with them on
deliverance, right? And I'll sit down and we'll have
these conversations. And I think those are healthy

(01:05:33):
conversations to have, right? I think those are healthy.
Conversations to. Have and so, but someone will
say, well, Ruslan, these guys are your friends and therefore
you're enabling heresy and I would say wait, wait.
They follow within the lines of historic Christianity in terms
of the essentials of the faith we would acquire to.
I just disagree with them that speaking in tongues on a Sunday
morning is biblical. I don't think that's biblical.
I think we should be speaking intongues in a public setting on a

(01:05:55):
Sunday morning. I would say, Dad, that's not
good. But I wouldn't put them as a
heretic if their church does that right?
Or I don't think a Christian could be possessed by a demon in
in the sense that it's controlling you.
And then they would nuance it and say, well, we're not saying
possessed. We're saying that latches on
whether it's your flesh, your spirit.
We don't think it could be in the same place as the spirit,
but it could be in the same place as as your soul.

(01:06:16):
And so they would nuance it and I'll say, yeah, I don't know
about that. I don't think everything's a
demon, right? And they would say we don't
think everything's demon. And people say, well, see their
views on deliverance in demonology puts them in the
heresy category. And I'd say, I don't think that
puts them in the heddersy category, I think.
I think they would need to define what makes somebody
hartic. Right, right.
Exactly what, what, what do we mean?
But that word gets thrown aroundso flippantly about everything

(01:06:37):
now, right. So if you're if you're not in my
camp, you're heretic. And this is even more prevalent,
I would say amongst my Catholic Orthodox folks is if you, it's
all or nothing approach, like either you believe everything
the church teaches or you don't.And so it's like, I could be
like, Hey, I think it's beautiful how you guys have
awesome art. I love Eastern Orthodox art.

(01:06:59):
I think it's gorgeous. I think it's beautiful, but I'm
not with the veneration of the Saints.
I think, I think that's a bit ofa stretch.
I think that developed over a couple 100 years.
And I'm not, I'm I can't bow down and kiss pictures
respectfully. If you want to kiss pictures,
cool. I can't kiss pictures.
You want to see them as windows in the heaven.
I can't see them. And so like they would say,
well, yeah, that's anathema. Like you're an anathema of
Second Nicene Council. You know, you, you, you.

(01:07:22):
And so it's an all or nothing type of approach.
And every group has some form ofthat, right?
The Marian dogmas and Catholicism, right.
Like if you don't agree with these Marian dogmas, you're out,
you know, And I'm like, I don't know about that one.
Like I, I, I, you guys want to think Mary's a perpetual virgin.
I'm not mad at you. I don't think the scriptures are
clear on that, but fine. But so I think every group has

(01:07:42):
some form of that to various degrees.
Yeah. But then there's yeah, I agree
with that. There's this wrong.
There's the core doctrines though.
So like if if you have Versola scriptura, right, Scripture
alone, Bible alone, Gospel aloneand Christ alone.
And I think that anything out ofthat comes what the gospel is

(01:08:02):
and who Jesus is, right? And I've, I've tended to be
really careful who I call out with salvation unless it's
really obvious, because I got saved at 16 and I believed in
stuff that was really, really wrong.
Like I thought this is how I gotinto New Thought teachings.
And so but I was still saved. I think that through
sanctification, God brought me out of that and corrected my

(01:08:25):
theology, and that's what I prayfor if that happens.
But yeah, I think that that is the fundamental question though,
is what are the core doctrines then?
What makes somebody a heretic? What makes somebody outside of
the faith? And that's another issue with
what makes somebody a false teacher.
Right here we are talking about Todd White and we're talking

(01:08:45):
about Bill Johnson, and a lot ofpeople would make the case that
especially in a lot of Word of Faith and AR circles, there's a
whole other gospel that can go along with that, right?
Like so like Bill Johnson, you can be saved, but along with
your salvation must come these other things.
I can't, I think you said it before we got on.
I can't believe in a gospel thatdoesn't also have.

(01:09:07):
That allows room for you for sickness.
Yeah, yeah. And so there's.
What does that mean then to the person that's hearing the gospel
at a Bethel service? And so all these questions come
up. You know, another one is Joel
Osteen, right? You know, you know, you have a
positive preaching pastor. Is there any hearsay going on
there? You know, is there anything

(01:09:29):
that's that's happening when it comes to his message of, you
know, positive thinking? I and those are affirmations.
They're mixed in together with some biblical stuff.
But he's he's got a lineage there with a new thought
movement. But if you're talking about
teachers who have bad theology, where do we draw that line in
suggesting, like, would you suggest Todd White as a teacher

(01:09:51):
say this never came out? Would you then be like, yeah.
No, but I got dragged. I got dragged for this years
ago. You get dragged a lot, I've
noticed, but I mean I don't. No.
So I would not recommend to ToddWhite.
I would not recommend to Joel Osteen because I think there's a
balance and A and A and a robustness.
To the reverse interview right now.

(01:10:11):
Yeah, I think, I think there's abalance in a, in a robust
presentation of the Gospel. And I think it's it's and both,
right. So like God doesn't just want
you to be happy, He wants you tobe holy.
I think there are times where holiness actually leads to
happiness, but I think ultimately joy is what God is
after. That's the fruit of the spirit.
So I think whenever I'm hearing something that's very one sided
and, and, and presented in a waythat I think it's inaccurate to

(01:10:34):
Scripture, I would just say I'm probably not recommending a Joel
Osteen or Todd White or definitely a Bill Johnson.
Then there's other guys that I would say, yeah, I feel
uncomfortable with the way Bethel has handled a lot of the
criticism. And it's not just, hey, these
are these are things we can disagree on.
No, no, like you guys, the way you're going about these things

(01:10:55):
looks SUS. Mike Winger, for example, like
Mike Winger getting attacked by Joel Osteen, you know, like I
have. I have mutual friends with Joel
Osteen, you know, and I was like, did you actually listen to
what happened? Like, do you understand how
petty it is to go after a YouTube in the way he did?
Do you understand how crazy it is for Benny Hinn to do what he
did? Like these are that these are

(01:11:16):
indications of where their character and where their head
is to me, right, like outside ofthe theology being held
accountable and now you're goingafter people.
Like I would say those are the things that I've had some some
offline conversations with some mutual friends of theirs.
You know what I'm just like, butmy question goes to them is
like, how many false prophecies is too many false prophecies?
Thank you. You know, like if, if, if, if,

(01:11:37):
if Benny Hen was in your church and made the same amount of
false prophecies in your church that he's made from his
platform, you would have been sat him down, you know, and they
won't, they won't acknowledge this publicly, but privately
they were like, yeah, that dude's kind of tripping.
See what I mean? Why?
Why wouldn't they go up to like Benny Hinn?
I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why.
Charismatics tend to be too gullible.
We're too charitable. We're too gullible.

(01:11:58):
We have sometimes an over inflation of honor that's
unhealthy and I think we need toown that.
I think on the other side, the cessation is a too critical.
Everything is a heresy every they're super cynical about
everything. And I think that's the other
correction. I think if I own it, I would
say, yeah, I tend to really believe the best about people.
I start with yeah, you do. Let me start with the believing

(01:12:20):
the best about you before I'm trying to be hyper critical and
and and that and that could be that could lead to being too
you. Err on the side of grace.
I err on the side of. Let me assume your motives are
good, and let me assume you're doing your best before I assume
you're trying to be something that is a wolf.
What gets you there? What gets me to when someone
like. Gets you to the other side where

(01:12:41):
you're like oh mark and avoid. I would say like overtly
heretical teaching, like something that's like overtly
heretical what's? An heretical teaching.
Saying that God doesn't allow for sickness, I would say that
that's the I would say. That God doesn't allow for
sickness. God, God doesn't allow for
someone charismatics, right? God always wants you healed.

(01:13:02):
I was saying that that's how I would say anything outside of
like. Jesus.
Jesus not being Co eternal. OK, Jesus, Jesus being a
thought, I would say the Trinityis way, way, way high up there.
Yeah, Jesus being God's thought.So healing 100 God, God, God,
God is going to heal you 100%. And if he doesn't, well then you

(01:13:23):
didn't believe enough. You didn't have the faith.
Not that he may have not wanted to heal you, not that he may not
have wanted to use suffering forgood.
Which hello. That's the cross, right?
So I would say, I would say those things so.
What about the gospel as far as.The gospel.
I would I would say yes, with the caveat that when you start

(01:13:45):
getting into words like grace and what is it, what does grace
mean and what is saved mean? Like here's a good example.
I, I think Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox and Catholics
who place their faith in Jesus, our can experience salvation.
Our words, we use different words to say very different

(01:14:06):
things. So they would say you're saved,
you're being saved, and you willbe saved.
That would be the Christian. That would be the Protestant
parallel of justification, sanctification and
glorification, right? And so when we look at those
words, we're saying the same thing, but they're using the
word saved in a multifaceted area.
So they believe you can lose your salvation.
They believe there's a degree ofworks involved to reveal and or

(01:14:27):
to confirm your salvation. I think justification is a
declarative moment. So would we disagree on the
Gospel? I don't know.
Probably. Like there's probably some
disagreements on what does it mean to be justified because of
the work of Jesus. And from that justification, now
that I'm a child of God, I get to do good works.
I get to cooperate with the HolySpirit of my life.

(01:14:49):
I get to become more sanctified and consecrated, right?
Would that be a gospel disagreement for some?
I. Actually am not familiar too
much with Eastern Orthodox. Yeah.
And I don't want to open that kind of worms too much.
I had, I had this the same conversation this morning with a
friend of mine who's Eastern Orthodox and how after Jordan
Peterson and Jonathan Paggio didthe Gospel series, they were

(01:15:10):
like Dennis Prager was like, hey, where is this verdict of
justification? We Christians talk about,
evangelicals talk about, and they don't have a place for that
in their Eastern Orthodox cut, that Catholic theology meaning
that we see like you're justified.
Yeah, right. In Romans, like you're justified
because of the work of Jesus. And then from that you start

(01:15:33):
living different. Yeah, right.
They don't make that distinguishment the same way.
Right. So where would you place this is
fun. Hold on.
So with the gospel, where is it?Just tell me what the gospel is.
What saves you? Yeah, I believe the gospel is
Jesus came live the life we couldn't live, died to death.
We should have died on the crossin our place for our sins, rose

(01:15:54):
on 1/3 day and then sent his Spirit to give us new hearts,
new minds and new desires and tousher to not just so that we're
going to heaven, but to usher inKingdom on this side of
eternity. Meaning like I believe we're all
ambassadors of Christ here and now.
So it's not just something then,it's also now.
Like, I think there's a goodnessand a beauty that we are to be a
part of bringing into this world.

(01:16:14):
What would the difference between Mormons believe that and
so did Jehovah's Witnesses. Right.
They have a different. They have a different Christ.
Yeah, so. That's why I said, remember
eternal Jesus there has to be a Co eternal.
Jesus, yes. OK, so let's say that, you know,
say that there's somebody new thoughters believe that.
They believe. Everything you just said.
Oh, oh, oh, so so then the the line let's.
Just say that there's somebody who calls them.

(01:16:36):
Oprah believes that. You know what I mean?
You think Oprah should read my book, man?
Oh. You think Oprah believes that?
That aspect of salvation. It's it's reinterpreted,
interesting. OK.
But you can have a gospel message like that.
And a lot of people are like, yeah, I believe that, yeah, but
they really don't. So I would say there's a
difference between being. Like a different gospel, a

(01:16:57):
different Jesus. Well, a different so the gospel
is how are we made right and reconciled to God, right?
So I think someone can be made right and reconciled to God and
be an error. Yes, me too.
I see that, yeah. So, OK, so from your position,
new thought, would you say that they're in error or would you
say that? No, they're outright heretics,
OK? And and so, so, so from your

(01:17:19):
benefit, what would make them outright heretics?
Like, where's that line for you?Oh, it's it's blatant in what
they believe. It's a different Jesus, a
different gospel. The identity of Jesus is not the
same as what scripture proclaimsbecause scripture to them is
subjective. If you're they made the
scripture scriptures into a selfhelp book.
What does this verse mean to me?Right.

(01:17:40):
And so, you know, and then Christ, it has a different
meaning. If you and I hear the word
Christ, we think anointed one, we think Messiah as it should,
because that's the literal definition.
They don't do that. They separate the 2 They make
Jesus. It's funny, you know a little
bit about Eastern Orthodox. There's a view that they take
of, of Jesus where I forget the fancy words for it, but there's

(01:18:05):
like a lower view, which isn't a, I mean that that that word
when I say lower, it means that they're kind of looking at him
as a human. And then there's an upper view
of looking at him as God. And I forget what those words
are, but it's, in other words, there's a lot of emphasis on
Jesus as a human being. Fully human, full of God.
Yeah, Fully human, Fully God, truly God, truly human.

(01:18:28):
The truly human part is where it's made for us to identify
with Jesus. And that's really where a lot of
it comes from, right? Where it's like he's a, he's a
human just like us. And look, you can obtain this
thing called the Christ, which is something he obtained, he
became conscious of. And the Christ is the inner

(01:18:49):
divinity within us. That's not the gospel.
That's not yeah, yeah, it's right.
It actually has some overlaps with the the Mormon view of the
ontologically you can become ontologically God, right.
So Eastern Orthodox would say their view of glorification,
which like we will be glorified and and our sinful nature will
be removed and will be forever in the presence of God, they

(01:19:11):
would take that a step further and say God became man so that
man can become God. Lowercase G this is like
standard Eastern Orthodox. Yeah.
So it sounds crazy on the surface, but what they're saying
is in heaven we will get to participate with God's energies.
And they have this energy essence distinction.
So the essence of God would be the ontology of God, the
ontology of Yahweh, right? Versus the energies of God is

(01:19:34):
the energies of God are distinctfrom the essence of God.
We get to participate in God's energies in heaven in this
process called deification or theosis.
And that sounds crazy, but I promise you, if you dig into
church history, it's not as crazy as you think it is.
And, and, and so, but what people will do is they will take
aspects of new age and they'll say, well, look, the Eastern
Orthodox believe this. And it's like, no, no, no, they
don't believe you ontologically become God.

(01:19:56):
They don't believe you become Yahweh.
They don't believe your essence changes.
They believe you're, you can become one with his energies
when you're in his presence in heaven.
So they go a little further thanProtestants in our view of
glorification. So if you were if we were to
align both views right next to each other, it would be minor
differences. What's the difference between
Word of Faith deification then and Eastern Orthodox?
I would say because little gods,yeah, when we're talking Word of

(01:20:19):
Faith, I think they're talking about creation abilities.
Like God has the ability to be capital C creator.
And so in becoming little gods, you're becoming capital C
creators. You can create realities, you
can shape shift almost right. You talking about which?
Which perspective? I'm talking about the, the, the
prosperity folks, right? Well, I don't think the Eastern

(01:20:41):
Orthodox would say that's what'shappening, that you're not,
you're not becoming lowercase gods and that you're becoming
creators and you can shape shiftyour reality and you can shift
your, your emotions and your thoughts or things.
I don't think they believe that.I think they're saying in
heaven, one day we will be one with God.
We will be in the presence of God.
And so they, they just go a little further than than
Protestants. Let me let's look it up because
what I don't? Want to know so much about

(01:21:02):
Eastern Orthodox? I got a lot of Eastern Orthodox
friends. Yeah, they're, they're, they're
great because I think some of this stuff they they get right.
And some is just like, oh, I don't see that in Scripture, but
it's interesting. I don't see the energies.
Back then so for for you and your perspective.
So I'm pretty sure you've gottena lot of heat for like, you
know, maybe bringing people on that you don't completely agree

(01:21:22):
with. Would you ever have like what,
what would be your litmus test, so to speak, to call out
somebody for heretical teachingsin in that regard?
Like if you had a teacher on or somebody that you didn't agree
with? Yeah, I.
Mean I would say the the eternalnature of God, right?
Jesus being eternal, fully human, fully divine.
I think those are pretty pretty hard lines.

(01:21:43):
I'd say the scriptures are inspired that they have
objective meaning. That God should always heal or
should that God shouldn't alwaysheal you?
What about other peripheral teachings like you know you
have? Maybe you have somebody like
Todd White who preaches all the right things.
Maybe he preaches a a gospel that's intact.

(01:22:04):
But would he be a false teacher for all the things?
And this is just one example. It could be any other teacher
that's maybe doing the same things.
Maybe they're going out and performing false healings or
maybe getting, you know, you know, they're laying hands on
somebody or whatever it is. They're just doing a lot of
malarkey. What would it take for you to

(01:22:26):
call them a false teacher if they're preaching a true gospel
and a true Jesus? That's a great question.
Again, I would go back to well, if there's like overt lying, if
there's like overt, like what's hot white, I think there was
overt lying. There was the the leg thing, the
moving the leg thing was pretty was pretty SUS.
I would say stuff like that. Then there's other folks that

(01:22:47):
like they add on stuff that's just not biblical.
So there's like folks in certainpockets and I'll it's like.
A gospel plus. Yeah, when you're doing Jesus
plus Jesus plus anything ruins everything.
So let me give you the 2, the two, the two visions just so
that I don't, I don't misspeak and then folks get upset at me
because they will get upset at me.
So this is the Eastern Orthodox view of deification, and I got

(01:23:08):
it on the screen. Yeah.
Theosis. So the in in Eastern Orthodoxy
definition, also known as theosis, refers to the
transformative power process of becoming united with God through
grace, specifically the divine energies of God.
It's a concept of attaining A likeness to or union with God,
aiming for a close relationship with God.

(01:23:28):
Then Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Theosis is not pantheistic as itemphasizes the retention of
unique human characteristics in the Union, while the divine and
human nature's remain distinct. I don't know, I'd have to look
more into that. And so here's the here's the
Protestant definition of glorification, which again, this
is just mainline, this is what will be what happens in heaven,

(01:23:49):
right? And Protestant glorification
refers to the final stage of salvation.
So there is a final stage of salvation in future, a state of
complete spiritual and physical perfection with where believers
share in God's glory. So here it's God's glory, here
it's united with God. Yeah, I think some of it is
semantics. It's a process where believers
are delivered from sin and transformed into the image of

(01:24:10):
Christ. This transformation involves
both spiritual and physical dimensions resulting in sinless
Christ like existence. So they're very similar.
When you look at them right nextto each other, they're not the
same. There's some distinctions and I
would say they go a little further in the energies and
becoming one with God's energiesand we would probably not go as
far, but I think it's very, very, very similar.
So like I don't think that's thesame as lower G God's you will

(01:24:31):
be Gods Creflo dollar who is whois pushing that stuff?
Kenneth Copeland. I don't.
Think it's the biggest one with it, Yeah, yeah.
Alright, so that concludes the first part of our conversation
with Melissa Doterie. And that is just Part 1.
We have an entire Part 2 that's coming out soon, but why wait
before Part 2 comes out? Consider signing up for our
Patreon community and a free seven day trial for as little as

(01:24:55):
$10 a month to go see the entirefull podcast before it goes
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directly to Patreon before anyone else sees them.
So hit the link in the pinned comment, get your seven day
trial, and check out the rest ofthis full conversation before
anyone else. So here's a little sneak peek of

(01:25:16):
Part 2. You went in person.
Oh, I went in person. It wasn't virtual.
No, I went in person and somebody yelled at me, but it
took a turn when I told her I didn't agree with Kenneth
Copeland. I did not like my gender at all.
And so I struggled with that fora while, and I played a boy for
a while. Well, the fact that he didn't
think his wife sinned against him by cheating on him.
Yeah, because we're all one. But within that community, there

(01:25:40):
is a lot of weird stuff that goes on that shouldn't go on.
I mean, you're talking about Bruce LON.

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