December 6, 2024 • 30 mins
Episode Summary
In this insightful episode of the SaaS Sessions Podcast, we down with Satya Ganni, the CEO and Founder of Userflow and Beamer. Satya shares his journey as a serial entrepreneur, having founded six companies before leading Userflow and Beamer, two innovative platforms revolutionizing user onboarding and product engagement. We dive into how AI is reshaping Product-Led Growth (PLG), strategies for leveraging data effectively, and the future of PLG and Product-Led Sales (PLS).
Key Takeaways
- Satya’s Journey in SaaS:
- Over two decades of experience in SaaS as a founder, operator, and executive.
- The mindset of a problem solver is the driving force behind his entrepreneurial success.
- AI's Role in PLG:
- AI influences every stage of the PLG funnel, from acquisition to engagement.
- Personalization powered by AI can reduce CAC and improve time-to-value.
- Examples of effective AI use in PLG include content generation, user segmentation, and in-app personalization.
- The Importance of Data in PLG:
- PLG's success relies heavily on combining formographic, behavioral, and in-app data.
- Tools like product analytics, session replays, and experimentation platforms are key to unlocking actionable insights.
- Challenges arise with inaccurate or incomplete data, but the right systems can mitigate these issues.
- Challenges and Misconceptions in PLG:
- PLG requires a massive market and some elements of virality to thrive.
- Many SaaS companies are in the early stages of adopting personalization and leveraging AI to its full potential.
- Integration of data-driven tools and workflows is critical for success.
- Future of PLG:
- Hybrid models combining PLG and PLS (Product-Led Sales) will dominate.
- AI-driven precision will empower sales teams to nudge users toward upgrades and drive conversions.
- PLG will evolve to emulate the personalization seen in B2C platforms like Instagram and Amazon.
Lightning Round Insights
- Biggest Lesson: The value of having a mentor or coach early in his career to accelerate growth.
- Book Recommendation: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman—a must-read for understanding decision-making.
About Userflow and Beamer
- Userflow: A user onboarding and guides platform that simplifies the journey for SaaS and digital-first businesses.
- Beamer: A product adoption and engagement platform designed for product leaders and marketers to drive engagement.
Connect with Satya
- Website: Userflow | Beamer
- LinkedIn: Satya Ganni
Subscribe & Stay Connected
Don’t miss upcoming episodes! Subscribe to SaaS Sessions Podcast on your favorite platform and follow us for more insights from SaaS leaders.
Visit our website - https://saassessions.com/
Connect with me on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunilneurgaonkar/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sunil (00:08):
Hey everyone.
Welcome to the latest episode ofthe SAS sessions podcast.
Today, we have Satya Gandhi onthe show with us.
Um, Satya is a CEO and founderof Userflow and Beamer, right?
So two great, great products,uh, and I'm sure like all of you
must have used in, you know, insome stage.
(00:30):
Uh, so user flow just to sharein like one line, use a user
flow as it is in the name.
It's a user onboarding, uh, youknow, and guides platform for
SAS and digital firstbusinesses.
Right.
Uh, and Beaver on the otherside, it's, it's more on in the
similar lines, but in, um, it'slike a product adoption and
engagement platform for, youknow, product leaders and
(00:52):
product marketers.
Right.
So, Hey, Satya, such a pleasureto have you on the show.
Satya (00:57):
No, great.
Great to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Awesome.
Sunil (01:01):
Great.
So, Satya, like I gave a veryshort intro about you and user
flow and Beamer, right?
Um, so why don't you tell usmore about yourself, like, how
has your journey been into thisSaaS ecosystem?
And maybe then.
You know, a couple of, uh, lineson what Beamer is and what user
flow is.
Satya (01:20):
Got it.
Got it.
Uh, thanks.
And then, yeah, I think my, mybackground, uh, has
predominantly been a SaaSfounder, operator, executive for
the last, um, you know, close totwo decades, um, funny part is I
didn't end up in a SaaS.
I started with something calledas an ASP model.
Um, that was a precursor tosass, right?
(01:41):
Um, ASP allows you to kind ofpost and manage your own servers
and data Um, so kind of kind ofas I said, it's a precursor to
sass Um where you have to docustomization licensing Set up
all of it, but but either eitheron a single machine or multiple
machines and deliver over theinternet So kind of started
(02:01):
there.
That was my, um, first, uh,company, um, and, and since then
it evolved into SAS.
So, uh, as I said, for the lastdecade and a half, I've been
predominantly, uh, into SAS, uh,selling across different
markets.
So enterprise, mid market, um,uh, SMB, um, and, and it's been
(02:21):
fascinating, uh, so far.
Yeah.
Sunil (02:25):
Nice.
Nice.
Great.
That's a great journey, Satya.
But you know, something that Ifeel everybody should know about
is that you have.
Like, you know, you have foundedand you know, you have been the
CEO of like six companies in thepast, right?
Like something that I cameacross, uh, from a LinkedIn and,
um, and this is previously to bemore and user flow, right?
(02:47):
It's like six companies you'vebeen a founder for, uh, and I'm
sure like, uh, there, there,there were some exits, um, from
there.
So like, you know, what, what.
Keeps you going.
And you know, what, what makesyou feel like, you know, I am
like, you know, I always wantto, you know, build a product
and build a company.
And, you know, uh, becausethat's, that's, that's really
(03:08):
crazy to be like, you know, afounder of like six companies
and now like seven and eightone.
Satya (03:15):
Yeah.
Thanks, O'Neill.
I think, uh, first of all, uh,at the core, uh, I like to
consider myself as a problemsolver, uh, you know, as a
problem solver, I like solvingproblems, whether that's on the
engineering side, product side,go to market, right?
So I have a natural, uh, tint ofcuriosity to identify problems
and, and solve them.
(03:35):
So I think some of thosesolutions eventually.
You know, uh, lead to birth ofnew companies, right?
Um, funny part is, you know, Iwas a mechanical engineer by
education and a self taughtprogrammer.
So I thought, how can I marryboth?
Um, because software engineershas Visual Studio, mechanical
engineers has CAD tools.
So for a long time, I wasthinking, how do I marry both?
(03:56):
And then I came up with thisidea that Hey, we need a visual
studio like tool for mechanicalengineers.
So that was my first company,right?
So I think it all starts withthe problem.
Um, I think what keeps me goingis, um, I think the technology
space is super exciting, always,uh, evolving most, most fast.
Um, and it also scales fast, uh,if you think there are right,
(04:19):
uh, guardrails, um, it alsoscales fast, right?
So I think these, these, theseare the different things that
keep me going, a lot of excitingproblems to solve, um, using
technology as the leverage to,um, build or, or, uh, scale.
And, uh, so many opportunities,um, you know, that we have
before us.
Yeah.
Sunil (04:39):
Definitely.
That that's a very interestingaspect.
Um, so then, you know, given,uh, uh, like our today's topic,
right?
Like how AI is like reshaping,uh, PLG and user experiences
again, you know, like PLG hasbeen like, uh, it's, uh, it's
not new.
It's been around for, for manyyears now.
Um, but it's definitely like AIis.
(05:01):
Uh, reinventing like the PLGexperience, uh, for a lot of
companies.
And, um, and, and I feel likeuser flow and bemer at are at
the core of, uh, core of it,right?
So, yeah, like, you know what,what, what do you feel like, you
know, what, what's that roleRight, uh, of AI in, you know,
(05:22):
enhancing these PLG strategies?
Satya (05:25):
Yeah, yeah.
No, uh, great question again.
Um, I think if you look at, uh,product led growth, it's
predominantly a funnel drivenmodel, right?
Um, usually there are fivestages of this funnel.
There is acquisition, there isactivation, there is engagement,
there is conversion.
Um, so usually you go, you havethese.
You know, um, both phases, Iwould say AI is definitely
(05:48):
influencing every stage of thePLG funnel.
Like for example, let's takeacquisition, right?
Um, you know, uh, you, you, you,if you're adopting organic
strategies to dive, uh, youknow, better we start to sign up
conversion or a better, Uh, timeto sign up or or a reduction in
CAC.
So you can use AI to generatethe content, publish the content
(06:10):
and drive visitors back, right?
A second thing is even thepersonalization of the website
or landing pages.
So for example, if you sell totwo, three different user
personas, and um, when you usethe content to drive them to a
website or landing pages, youcan actually personalize the
landing page.
landing pages or the websitesthat suit to their needs, um,
(06:31):
right?
So that's acquisition.
But even when you look atactivation, um, as I said, if
you have a large volume of userscoming in, how do you cohort
them appropriately to say, Hey,for each cohort, I want to
accelerate the time to value.
I want to improve the activationrate.
Um, similarly.
So I think, I think at everystep of the PLG funnel, you can
(06:51):
use.
Um, a led tools or techniques tobe able to personalize and drive
better conversion.
So that's, that's how I wouldthink about it, right?
Um, PLD is all funnel driven.
And if you can, uh, think abouta led strategies at each stage
of the funnel, um, I think that,that, that's what would produce
(07:13):
a value.
Sunil (07:15):
Nice, nice.
That's, that's, uh, you know, Ithink that would bring a lot of,
um, you know, seamlessness asto, to the entire user flow,
right?
Um, where, you know, what theyare, they see an ad somewhere,
you know, um, you know, which isagain personalized and they come
to a landing page, which ispersonalized, they sign up.
(07:37):
It's again personalized.
And, you know, uh, then they gothrough the activation and
onboarding, as you mentioned,which is like, again, very
personalized to them or theirrole or their industry, like
different levers that you canpull.
Right.
So, uh, but I'm sure like, youknow, some, some, sometimes, uh,
this personalization is, isdriven by data, right.
Um, and data, yes, you know,that you get from, let's say,
(07:58):
you know, intent platforms or,you know, something like an
Apollo or zoom for, you know,maybe they have collect, you
have collected, you know, It's acrunch base or, you know,
multiple, you know, sources,right.
And you never know, like, youknow, like how accurate is the
data, right.
Because you're getting it.
So, and, and, and if you solelylike very much rely on, uh, you
(08:19):
know, this, this level ofpersonalization, which you, uh,
are collecting or you're, we areorganizing it.
Um, from data that of collectingfrom multiple sources, the
personalization can go for atoss as well.
Right.
So it's sometimes like,obviously it can be great if you
blend it correctly, but becauseof like data not being right,
might be like one problem, butthere can be like several other
(08:40):
problems, uh, where it can gowrong as well.
Right.
So where do you think in yourexperience where you've seen
like PLG really win and in, in,in some cases where it, you
know, it does fail.
Satya (08:53):
Yeah, I think, um, I, I, you know, my personal belief is
that, uh, still there are somany misnomers about what, uh,
PLG is and how it works and whyit works, right?
Um, I think the number oneprecursor to PLG, uh, is you
absolutely have to be in amassive market.
that's number one, right?
So if you, if you.
(09:14):
If you're selling in a very,very niche market, um, then then
PLJ is not the best fit for you.
So obviously, you know, you wantto be in a wider, um, and a
large market.
I think the second, uh, uh,precursor, uh, is that you want
to have some elements of, uh,uh, virality, um, in your app or
collaboration, right?
So for example, Uh, productslike Slack or, or Zoom is a
(09:37):
perfect example, which is whatwe are on, right?
So I can't do Zoom talking tomyself, right?
I need a person on the otherside of it.
So that means that I have toinvite you and you have to be
part of the conversation.
So I think certain products havethese natural ingredients,
whether you call Miro, whetheryou call Slack or Zoom, and you
know, a lot, a lot, you know,wide majority of SaaS products
(09:58):
don't have this virality, right?
So first of all, I think we haveto, uh, figure out, uh, the
misnomers of, uh, PNG, um, and,and, uh, do it.
Second thing is, I think theinter, the con, uh, interfaces
are changing very rapidly.
I think we'll see more and moreof, um, I think right now we
have this, uh, classic, uh,application structure model
(10:20):
where you have a front endthat's driven by, uh, you know,
components and, and, uh, youguys, I think, um, it will
change to more conversationalinterfaces.
It will change to more inside.
When, um, uh, conversationalinterfaces, right?
So I think that shift we're inthe early days of making that
(10:40):
shift happen.
Um, as I said, uh, PLJ as a, youknow, uh, as a standalone is, is
one aspect of it, but I thinkyou have to look at holistically
in terms of your applications,the experience to the end users,
um, and, and some of themetrics, I think, I think we are
in a moving ship, um, here,especially with the AI coming
into the mix, right?
(11:01):
So.
Still, still early days.
Yep.
Sunil (11:05):
Nice.
Nice.
That's, that's a good, good wayto look at it.
Right.
Uh, Uh, but, but, you know,taking a step back and just
like, you know, talking about,uh, that data that, that we're
collecting like more on that,right.
Uh, obviously cannot control,um, you know, the, the quality
of data that you get from thesethird party platforms, right.
But you, uh, generally like, youknow, as you mentioned correctly
(11:29):
in a PLG offering, right, um,where, you know, these, these
are more open tools where Youknow, uh, there is a sort of
fireality built into the pictureand, you know, and, and these
tools, like all the men, theones that you mentioned, right.
Even Slack or zoom or, you know,Miro and, you know, Figma and
all of these, like they have a,they have an onboarding process,
(11:49):
right.
Or any PLG onboarding process.
Right.
Um, and, and, and during thatonboarding process, you collect
like.
Uh, some information about likethe user, right?
Typically what's their role,like, where do they hear about
you?
Um, you know, what is the, whatis the use case that they're
trying to, uh, you know, uh,trying your product out for,
(12:11):
right?
Uh, what department do they comeunder?
Right.
And, and maybe some more righthere and there.
Uh, obviously they, you havetheir email, so you can figure
out like what company do theywork for, what industry, you
know, how big is the company,what industry they belong to,
and, you know, some moreinformation there.
But, uh, you know, I've seenoften that, um, like companies
(12:33):
do collect this information,but, uh, you know, they, they
don't necessarily personalizethe, Um, the product, right.
Based on that information, justto give an example, if, uh, and
for the listener as well, if youhave signed up on Canva ever,
right, like very easily.
So they do have a very goodonboarding, right?
Like you sign up on Canva.
(12:53):
They ask you like, what's therole they ask you?
Like, what do you want to dowith Canva?
And, you know, some things and,and obviously they know what's
my industry.
They have all that informationabout my role, my
responsibilities, my use case.
But still, when I land on Canva,they still like show me, uh,
the, the, there is nothing likepersonalized in the home screen.
Yes.
Right.
For me versus let's say you signup, like Satya, Satya signs up
(13:17):
or I sign up or somebody elsesigns up.
Like all of us see the same homescreen.
Then what's the point ofcollecting that data?
Right.
Uh, that's, that's what makes methink, right.
So how can companies in yourexperience that they're like,
how can companies go from, youknow, just not just collecting
data, but also like takingactions, uh, on using this data.
Satya (13:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
As I mentioned, I think we're inthe very, very early days.
Um, I think you see a lot of,uh, uh, use cases in the B2C
world, right?
Um, I would, I usually,whenever, you know, people are
looking at some trends in B2B, Ipoint them to B2C.
I would say look at what B2C hasbeen doing because in a couple
of years, B2B SaaS would verywell emulate, right?
(14:03):
So that's where even when youlog into some of the social
apps, whether it's Instagram,Access, you know, I think that's
a personalized experience,right?
So they're using data well.
To really personalize the, um,uh, personalize the experience
or, or the feed, right?
Um, I would say in, in, in termsof SAS, we're still in early
(14:23):
days of, of bringing that levelof personalization.
And I'm sure whether it's Canvaor somebody else, they're deeply
thinking about, Hey, what is theproblem the user is trying to
solve?
How can we personalize theexperience?
And maybe, maybe the answer issometimes personalization is not
required.
Thanks.
Um, because he's trying to do anactivity to derive an outcome.
So let's go stay focused onthat.
(14:45):
Um, let's go stay focused onthat.
Right.
So, so that is also, uh,possible, uh, right.
Um, but, but I think more andmore you will see, uh,
applications, especially theborderlines of, uh, prosumer,
um, um, you know, self serve andeverything else that start to
span over.
And, and, uh, I think majorityof the PLD companies.
(15:07):
is not limited to a geo.
Um, like zoom doesn't sell inus, right?
It is used by users across theglobe, right?
Um, across the globe.
I think when you see that hugediversity of, um, users coming
from, uh, uh, various geos,various, uh, languages, et
cetera, I think personalizationwould play a big role.
(15:28):
So I think, yeah, the SAS appswould evolve just in the early,
early days of that experience.
Yeah.
Sunil (15:34):
Got it.
But, uh, again, like what, what,what is the problem that you
feel, which is there, whichhasn't allowed like SaaS apps
to.
Like, you know, be at thatstage, right?
Because like, see, Instagram hasbeen doing these
personalization, like a lot ofthe Instagram, but you know,
(15:55):
the, the, you know, B2C or D2Cplatforms, right?
Like even e commerce, right?
Like the more, like you go toAmazon and you keep buying like,
you know, uh, more and morestuff.
And then like the feed kind ofkeeps changing to, uh, to, uh, a
more personalized feeds as tolike what you would buy.
Right.
So my Amazon feed would looklike very different from your
(16:18):
feed.
And, you know, that's the sameaspect for any B2C platform, as
you mentioned.
Right.
And, uh, and this has been theresince like many, many years,
right.
Even before like AI came intothe picture, right.
So like now with AI into thepicture, I think it should be
more easier and more, you know,um, like, you know, easier to
(16:38):
get basically more easier to getinto, uh, doing something like
this.
So what, what is it that youfeel in your opinion is stopping
the companies?
This is it.
Um, like, because they don'thave the right data, they don't
have the right tools, they don'thave the right, uh, you know,
process or systems or like, whatis your, uh, opinion on this?
Satya (17:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think this, uh, one of thesecret sauce of many PLG
companies is extremely strongfoundation in data, like, like
every, every bit and piece ofdata, right?
So we talked about the funnel.
We talked about, uh, um, funnelconversion, funnel stages, all
of it, right?
So a lot of that is, is, youknow, experimentation, um, is
(17:23):
driven by data.
And, and, uh, one is, of course,you, you have the data about the
user, um, the org, thecorresponding org that he
belongs to, um, and, and etcetera.
Second thing is, I think theactions that user do, that's
where I think tools like productanalytics are very, very
important because.
What happens is when you get afirst time user is actions in
(17:46):
the app are very, very critical,you know, very, very critical
because that tell you somethingthat he or she might not have
told you, um, in a, in a zoomcall or something, right?
Is he using the app?
What features is he using?
How deeply the feature isadopted, uh, why is he not
adopting the feature?
Right.
Um, is it a discovery problem?
(18:07):
You know, is it a value problem,et cetera, et cetera, right?
So again, you, you have to usethat product data combined with
the, um, uh, combined with his,uh, Uh, you know, behavioral
data on the website combinedwith his formographic data,
formographic means, you know,uh, again, the location, the
org, um, where he belongs.
(18:27):
So unless you combine all threetypes of data, you have to
combine the formographic, the,you know, behavioral data that
he exhibits, uh, on the websiteand blog and other sources or to
your email campaign.
The third thing is in app.
And I think you have to combineall of it to really understand
what is the user trying toaccomplish, right?
You know, why did why didsomebody from a mastercard
(18:50):
signed up on this particular?
Application what is he trying tobehave?
So the foundation for a lot ofstuff Um, and that's where I
think you probably need a datastore or whatever, so that
you're able to bring in all thisdata together and then
understand the account or theuser.
(19:11):
And then you can think aboutpersonalization or, or anything
like that.
So I think the secret sauce to alot of PLG, very successful PLG
companies is data, massive data.
Yeah.
Sunil (19:21):
Nice.
Nice.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's, um,that's, that.
For sure.
I mean, like for any, any, uh,uh, like motion, whether it's
PLG or sales led or, you know,some, something else, right?
Like I feel like data is like atthe core of it for, uh, for
everything, right.
Like, uh, to help you takeinformed decisions.
(19:42):
Right.
So, uh, and, and I, I know wetalked about, and you also
mentioned a little bit like, youknow, a bunch of tools, right.
That, um, That generally makesall of this possible, like makes
all the PLG possible.
Right.
So, um, what do you think aresome of these platforms or what
do you think some of these toolsthat, you know, help.
(20:02):
Companies put together thiswhole PLG motion, right?
Uh, we say like data and thendata tools is like one aspect or
one category, but then I'm surelike, you know, there's like a
whole lot of other, uh,platforms that are required.
And I'm sure like, you know, getBeamer like Beamer and user flow
are, um, you know, like, youknow, part of that tool stack.
(20:26):
So yeah, maybe you can sharemore, uh, on the tools that
enable PLG.
Satya (20:32):
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Yeah, no, uh, absolutely.
Um, I think, uh, I would broadlyclassify into two buckets.
Um, uh, right.
Especially for product teamsthat is new to drive, you know,
better, better activation,better engagement, better
conversion, right?
Um, there is the quantitativeside of the house and then there
is the qualitative side of thehouse, right?
(20:54):
And combining both is super,super important.
And on the quantitative side, Iwould put something like product
analytics, which is a must have,uh, for every B2B SaaS, uh, PMs,
right?
Um, uh, and then you have thingslike, you know, user onboarding
or, you know, product adoptionand product engagement
(21:14):
platforms.
Um, the third is what I callexperimentation, you know, and,
and feature flagging, becauseyou would want to run
experimentation, um, within yourown application, uh, to say,
hey, you know, um, Are ourpeople signing up converting
better through path number oneor through path number two?
So experimentation is a very bigpiece of it.
(21:35):
Um, fourth thing is the feedbackI think the ability to collect
qualitative feedback Um, youknow about the experience itself
what is working what is notworking etc, etc So I would
classify this toolkit into fouror five pillars one.
There is the Usage aspect of it,which is driven from, uh,
product analytics tool.
There is the experimentationaspect of it is, which is driven
(21:57):
by, um, experimentation, featureflagging, all, all of those, um,
uh, tooling, um, third is youhave, uh, you know, the
engagement side of the house,which is where we play, um,
onboarding, you know, feedback,um, you know, uh, driving,
driving, uh, adoption.
And fourth is, you know, thereare There are tooling like, you
know, session replay that allowsyou to watch user sessions and,
(22:20):
and figure out a, which usershave, have stuck through the
journey, et cetera.
So usually there are four orfive pillars, um, that are, that
are, uh, that, that are quiteimportant, especially in context
of B2C, B2B SaaS, I think B2C isa whole different world, um,
because the level of.
Uh, infrastructure and thetooling they require to
personalize the experience.
(22:41):
Um, I think that that hasevolved significantly.
I think B2B SaaS is justcatching up.
Yep.
Sunil (22:47):
Nice.
Nice.
Very, very interesting.
Uh, and, and I think great,great set of tools, um, and, and
good pillars.
Like I've not PLG motion.
Um, just fairly worked with afew companies, uh, on the side
for that.
And, uh, we did have.
Like same pillars, I would say,um, you know, that, that would
(23:12):
help us like, you know, enable,um, the PLG or drive the PLG
motion, uh, for the product.
Right.
So, uh, great stuff there.
So before we move on to the lastsection of the episode, which is
the lightning round, um, youknow, I, I know we, you touched
upon like, Hey, we are in thevery early stages of the whole
PLG.
(23:33):
Uh, scenario.
Right.
So what, what do you feel like,what's next for PLG then, like,
you know, in your opinion, like,okay, what's, what's the future
of PLG lies in the next fewyears?
Satya (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
I think, uh, uh, uh, again, uh,companies like Atlassian
probably, you know, two decadesago kicked off this trend,
right.
And more and more, uh, companieshave been adopting this, uh,
trend.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think a broader, uh, thesis isif you look at, um, a typical
sales lead, um, they have highCAC and high LTV, right?
(24:08):
You know, that's how sales leadworks.
Uh, if you take a typical PLG,probably they have lower cac,
um, but have medium, uh, LTV,right?
Uh, sometimes they might getlucky and have very high LT.
So that's the fundamental limitsof, you know, whether you go
sales led or, or a PLG and bothare phenomenal.
Um, I would feel that a vastmajority of the PLG companies,
(24:32):
uh, go, go into a hybrid mode,hybrid mode, in a sense, they
would have.
Product led growth and productled sales.
So which is, which is like asales assistant motion, right?
You might not have sellers onthe street, on the field, uh,
but you might have sellerswithin, you know, within, within
your own office or work remotelyto serve the customer.
So I would say 99 percent of thePLG companies.
(24:55):
Uh, go, go into a hybrid model,right?
Where you have product ledgrowth, which, uh, addresses
yourselves or users.
And then you have a product led,um, sales motion where your, uh,
sales and solutioning team ishelping customers, uh, resolve
the problem.
So I would frame that model assomething like an inbound led
sales assist, right?
So you're still driving theneeds inbound.
(25:17):
But you're using the salesassist to do it.
It's not for say classic PLG.
Um, it's not self serve, but Iwould call it product led sales.
So I think at the intersectionof, uh, uh, PLG and PLS is where
the future lies.
Yeah.
Sunil (25:34):
Yeah, I think, I think this, and this is something like
a lot of companies, um, likehave come into this specific
category, which enable, uh,product led sales as well.
Right.
Um, uh, and, and, and I thinkthat that would be, uh, like,
you know, I, I'm not, I've notbeen like very far, like Mary
was following these companies,but I'm sure like they've,
(25:56):
they've already been using AIto, uh, to, You know, drive, uh,
or like, you know, preciselydark or with precision, tell you
like, Hey, these are, this isthe next company, uh, or
prospect, uh, account that, youknow, that, uh, is going to
upgrade.
Right.
So why not give them a littlenudge, uh, and, and, you know,
(26:17):
take them to the finish line.
Right.
So, yeah.
Great.
Great.
Satya.
Uh, so, you know, moving on tothe lightning round, the last
section of the episode.
So, uh, I've already asked youlike too many questions, but you
know, I'm just going to ask youlike three more and, uh, then
you have to answer like withwhatever is on top of your mind.
(26:38):
Right.
So, uh, starting with the firstone, right.
What's the one thing that youwish you would have known?
Yeah.
Satya (26:48):
I think, uh, if I had, uh, a coach or a mentor, um, uh,
when I first started, I think Iwould have been the next more
successful.
I think, uh, people vastlyunderestimate the impact of a,
of a very solid, um, you know,CEO coach or a founder coach or
someone, someone who actuallywent through your shoes.
(27:11):
A couple of years, uh, he'dwrite again, maybe those people
are also busy, but if I had acoach that could mentor me from,
from my very early days ofstarting, because I took a lot
of time to learn, um, uh, maybe,maybe it's my very nature.
I took a lot of time to learn,but had a coach.
See, uh, one thing you have toknow is even people in the top
one percentile in their fieldrequires coaches.
(27:33):
Look at Olymp.
You know, people who go toOlympics or people who are like
top one percentile in theirsports, they also have absolute
coaches, right?
So, um, are they not talented?
Are they not skilled?
No, I think, uh, there arecertain, uh, behavioral aspects.
There are certain, uh, uh,aspects that a coach can double.
So I would say if I go back, uh,decades ago, uh, I would love
(27:55):
to, you know, get, get a mentoror a coach.
Yeah.
Sunil (27:58):
Nice.
That's, that's a veryinteresting take.
I'm, uh, I'm sure I'm Uh, like,you know, there's few people who
after listening to this, likewould go and, uh, you know, find
a coach or maybe they already,if they already have one, they,
they would have their faithreinstated on, uh, if, if they
are losing in like, why should Ihave a coach and all of that?
(28:19):
Um, nice, uh, onto the last one,right?
So what's the one bookrecommendation that you have for
the audience?
Satya (28:28):
Um, I think, I think I'm assuming your audience, uh, um,
you know, you're, you're,you're, um, you know, your
audience are mostly founders,CEOs and, and, uh, SAS, um,
operators.
I think recently I read a book,um, which is, um, Uh, thinking
fast and slow by Daniel Kuhn.
(28:48):
I think it's an amazing bookthat everyone should read
because sometimes we make veryfast decisions.
Sometimes we make slowdecisions.
I think there is a rational whywe make fast decisions and why
we make slow decisions.
Um, I felt it's an amazing bookthat gives you a deeper, um,
underpinnings of why we, youknow, why we think fast and make
(29:08):
decisions and, you know,sometimes why we move slow.
It's an amazing book.
It's a strongly recommend thateveryone reads that.
Sunil (29:14):
Yeah.
Nice.
Nice.
Yeah.
I've, I've read it personallyand like, definitely it's, it's
a, it's a great one for, foreveryone that either, like, not
just like operators or SaaSfounders or anything, but, uh, I
think it's a, it's a good readfor in, in general.
Um, all right.
Awesome.
Uh, thanks again for coming onand, you know, sharing all these
(29:35):
insights with us and, you know,um, like everything about PLG
and I'm sure like, You are atthe, uh, you know, you're,
you're building like twocompanies, which enable PLG, uh,
to the core.
Right.
Um, so, um, great, great stuffthere.
So thanks again, once again, to,uh, to come on the show, take
some time out and share allthese insights.
Satya (29:58):
No, really appreciate your time and thanks for the
opportunity Sunil.
Um, I think in our case, we arebuilding, you know, one company,
of course, like every othermulti product, a SaaS company, I
believe most successful SaaScompanies become multi product.
So we are a single company, twoproduct lines, um, and looking,
looking forward to, you know,building, um, a product adoption
(30:21):
and engagement platform.
We are very specifically focusedon SaaS product teams.
So, so that's.
Kind of where we serve, but, uh,really thanks for the
opportunity.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Hey everyone.
Welcome to the latest episode ofthe SAS sessions podcast.
Today, we have Satya Gandhi onthe show with us.
Um, Satya is a CEO and founderof Userflow and Beamer, right?
So two great, great products,uh, and I'm sure like all of you
must have used in, you know, insome stage.
(00:30):
Uh, so user flow just to sharein like one line, use a user
flow as it is in the name.
It's a user onboarding, uh, youknow, and guides platform for
SAS and digital firstbusinesses.
Right.
Uh, and Beaver on the otherside, it's, it's more on in the
similar lines, but in, um, it'slike a product adoption and
engagement platform for, youknow, product leaders and
(00:52):
product marketers.
Right.
So, Hey, Satya, such a pleasureto have you on the show.
Satya (00:57):
No, great.
Great to be here.
Thanks for inviting me.
Awesome.
Sunil (01:01):
Great.
So, Satya, like I gave a veryshort intro about you and user
flow and Beamer, right?
Um, so why don't you tell usmore about yourself, like, how
has your journey been into thisSaaS ecosystem?
And maybe then.
You know, a couple of, uh, lineson what Beamer is and what user
flow is.
Satya (01:20):
Got it.
Got it.
Uh, thanks.
And then, yeah, I think my, mybackground, uh, has
predominantly been a SaaSfounder, operator, executive for
the last, um, you know, close totwo decades, um, funny part is I
didn't end up in a SaaS.
I started with something calledas an ASP model.
Um, that was a precursor tosass, right?
(01:41):
Um, ASP allows you to kind ofpost and manage your own servers
and data Um, so kind of kind ofas I said, it's a precursor to
sass Um where you have to docustomization licensing Set up
all of it, but but either eitheron a single machine or multiple
machines and deliver over theinternet So kind of started
(02:01):
there.
That was my, um, first, uh,company, um, and, and since then
it evolved into SAS.
So, uh, as I said, for the lastdecade and a half, I've been
predominantly, uh, into SAS, uh,selling across different
markets.
So enterprise, mid market, um,uh, SMB, um, and, and it's been
(02:21):
fascinating, uh, so far.
Yeah.
Sunil (02:25):
Nice.
Nice.
Great.
That's a great journey, Satya.
But you know, something that Ifeel everybody should know about
is that you have.
Like, you know, you have foundedand you know, you have been the
CEO of like six companies in thepast, right?
Like something that I cameacross, uh, from a LinkedIn and,
um, and this is previously to bemore and user flow, right?
(02:47):
It's like six companies you'vebeen a founder for, uh, and I'm
sure like, uh, there, there,there were some exits, um, from
there.
So like, you know, what, what.
Keeps you going.
And you know, what, what makesyou feel like, you know, I am
like, you know, I always wantto, you know, build a product
and build a company.
And, you know, uh, becausethat's, that's, that's really
(03:08):
crazy to be like, you know, afounder of like six companies
and now like seven and eightone.
Satya (03:15):
Yeah.
Thanks, O'Neill.
I think, uh, first of all, uh,at the core, uh, I like to
consider myself as a problemsolver, uh, you know, as a
problem solver, I like solvingproblems, whether that's on the
engineering side, product side,go to market, right?
So I have a natural, uh, tint ofcuriosity to identify problems
and, and solve them.
(03:35):
So I think some of thosesolutions eventually.
You know, uh, lead to birth ofnew companies, right?
Um, funny part is, you know, Iwas a mechanical engineer by
education and a self taughtprogrammer.
So I thought, how can I marryboth?
Um, because software engineershas Visual Studio, mechanical
engineers has CAD tools.
So for a long time, I wasthinking, how do I marry both?
(03:56):
And then I came up with thisidea that Hey, we need a visual
studio like tool for mechanicalengineers.
So that was my first company,right?
So I think it all starts withthe problem.
Um, I think what keeps me goingis, um, I think the technology
space is super exciting, always,uh, evolving most, most fast.
Um, and it also scales fast, uh,if you think there are right,
(04:19):
uh, guardrails, um, it alsoscales fast, right?
So I think these, these, theseare the different things that
keep me going, a lot of excitingproblems to solve, um, using
technology as the leverage to,um, build or, or, uh, scale.
And, uh, so many opportunities,um, you know, that we have
before us.
Yeah.
Sunil (04:39):
Definitely.
That that's a very interestingaspect.
Um, so then, you know, given,uh, uh, like our today's topic,
right?
Like how AI is like reshaping,uh, PLG and user experiences
again, you know, like PLG hasbeen like, uh, it's, uh, it's
not new.
It's been around for, for manyyears now.
Um, but it's definitely like AIis.
(05:01):
Uh, reinventing like the PLGexperience, uh, for a lot of
companies.
And, um, and, and I feel likeuser flow and bemer at are at
the core of, uh, core of it,right?
So, yeah, like, you know what,what, what do you feel like, you
know, what, what's that roleRight, uh, of AI in, you know,
(05:22):
enhancing these PLG strategies?
Satya (05:25):
Yeah, yeah.
No, uh, great question again.
Um, I think if you look at, uh,product led growth, it's
predominantly a funnel drivenmodel, right?
Um, usually there are fivestages of this funnel.
There is acquisition, there isactivation, there is engagement,
there is conversion.
Um, so usually you go, you havethese.
You know, um, both phases, Iwould say AI is definitely
(05:48):
influencing every stage of thePLG funnel.
Like for example, let's takeacquisition, right?
Um, you know, uh, you, you, you,if you're adopting organic
strategies to dive, uh, youknow, better we start to sign up
conversion or a better, Uh, timeto sign up or or a reduction in
CAC.
So you can use AI to generatethe content, publish the content
(06:10):
and drive visitors back, right?
A second thing is even thepersonalization of the website
or landing pages.
So for example, if you sell totwo, three different user
personas, and um, when you usethe content to drive them to a
website or landing pages, youcan actually personalize the
landing page.
landing pages or the websitesthat suit to their needs, um,
(06:31):
right?
So that's acquisition.
But even when you look atactivation, um, as I said, if
you have a large volume of userscoming in, how do you cohort
them appropriately to say, Hey,for each cohort, I want to
accelerate the time to value.
I want to improve the activationrate.
Um, similarly.
So I think, I think at everystep of the PLG funnel, you can
(06:51):
use.
Um, a led tools or techniques tobe able to personalize and drive
better conversion.
So that's, that's how I wouldthink about it, right?
Um, PLD is all funnel driven.
And if you can, uh, think abouta led strategies at each stage
of the funnel, um, I think that,that, that's what would produce
(07:13):
a value.
Sunil (07:15):
Nice, nice.
That's, that's, uh, you know, Ithink that would bring a lot of,
um, you know, seamlessness asto, to the entire user flow,
right?
Um, where, you know, what theyare, they see an ad somewhere,
you know, um, you know, which isagain personalized and they come
to a landing page, which ispersonalized, they sign up.
(07:37):
It's again personalized.
And, you know, uh, then they gothrough the activation and
onboarding, as you mentioned,which is like, again, very
personalized to them or theirrole or their industry, like
different levers that you canpull.
Right.
So, uh, but I'm sure like, youknow, some, some, sometimes, uh,
this personalization is, isdriven by data, right.
Um, and data, yes, you know,that you get from, let's say,
(07:58):
you know, intent platforms or,you know, something like an
Apollo or zoom for, you know,maybe they have collect, you
have collected, you know, It's acrunch base or, you know,
multiple, you know, sources,right.
And you never know, like, youknow, like how accurate is the
data, right.
Because you're getting it.
So, and, and, and if you solelylike very much rely on, uh, you
(08:19):
know, this, this level ofpersonalization, which you, uh,
are collecting or you're, we areorganizing it.
Um, from data that of collectingfrom multiple sources, the
personalization can go for atoss as well.
Right.
So it's sometimes like,obviously it can be great if you
blend it correctly, but becauseof like data not being right,
might be like one problem, butthere can be like several other
(08:40):
problems, uh, where it can gowrong as well.
Right.
So where do you think in yourexperience where you've seen
like PLG really win and in, in,in some cases where it, you
know, it does fail.
Satya (08:53):
Yeah, I think, um, I, I, you know, my personal belief is
that, uh, still there are somany misnomers about what, uh,
PLG is and how it works and whyit works, right?
Um, I think the number oneprecursor to PLG, uh, is you
absolutely have to be in amassive market.
that's number one, right?
So if you, if you.
(09:14):
If you're selling in a very,very niche market, um, then then
PLJ is not the best fit for you.
So obviously, you know, you wantto be in a wider, um, and a
large market.
I think the second, uh, uh,precursor, uh, is that you want
to have some elements of, uh,uh, virality, um, in your app or
collaboration, right?
So for example, Uh, productslike Slack or, or Zoom is a
(09:37):
perfect example, which is whatwe are on, right?
So I can't do Zoom talking tomyself, right?
I need a person on the otherside of it.
So that means that I have toinvite you and you have to be
part of the conversation.
So I think certain products havethese natural ingredients,
whether you call Miro, whetheryou call Slack or Zoom, and you
know, a lot, a lot, you know,wide majority of SaaS products
(09:58):
don't have this virality, right?
So first of all, I think we haveto, uh, figure out, uh, the
misnomers of, uh, PNG, um, and,and, uh, do it.
Second thing is, I think theinter, the con, uh, interfaces
are changing very rapidly.
I think we'll see more and moreof, um, I think right now we
have this, uh, classic, uh,application structure model
(10:20):
where you have a front endthat's driven by, uh, you know,
components and, and, uh, youguys, I think, um, it will
change to more conversationalinterfaces.
It will change to more inside.
When, um, uh, conversationalinterfaces, right?
So I think that shift we're inthe early days of making that
(10:40):
shift happen.
Um, as I said, uh, PLJ as a, youknow, uh, as a standalone is, is
one aspect of it, but I thinkyou have to look at holistically
in terms of your applications,the experience to the end users,
um, and, and some of themetrics, I think, I think we are
in a moving ship, um, here,especially with the AI coming
into the mix, right?
(11:01):
So.
Still, still early days.
Yep.
Sunil (11:05):
Nice.
Nice.
That's, that's a good, good wayto look at it.
Right.
Uh, Uh, but, but, you know,taking a step back and just
like, you know, talking about,uh, that data that, that we're
collecting like more on that,right.
Uh, obviously cannot control,um, you know, the, the quality
of data that you get from thesethird party platforms, right.
But you, uh, generally like, youknow, as you mentioned correctly
(11:29):
in a PLG offering, right, um,where, you know, these, these
are more open tools where Youknow, uh, there is a sort of
fireality built into the pictureand, you know, and, and these
tools, like all the men, theones that you mentioned, right.
Even Slack or zoom or, you know,Miro and, you know, Figma and
all of these, like they have a,they have an onboarding process,
(11:49):
right.
Or any PLG onboarding process.
Right.
Um, and, and, and during thatonboarding process, you collect
like.
Uh, some information about likethe user, right?
Typically what's their role,like, where do they hear about
you?
Um, you know, what is the, whatis the use case that they're
trying to, uh, you know, uh,trying your product out for,
(12:11):
right?
Uh, what department do they comeunder?
Right.
And, and maybe some more righthere and there.
Uh, obviously they, you havetheir email, so you can figure
out like what company do theywork for, what industry, you
know, how big is the company,what industry they belong to,
and, you know, some moreinformation there.
But, uh, you know, I've seenoften that, um, like companies
(12:33):
do collect this information,but, uh, you know, they, they
don't necessarily personalizethe, Um, the product, right.
Based on that information, justto give an example, if, uh, and
for the listener as well, if youhave signed up on Canva ever,
right, like very easily.
So they do have a very goodonboarding, right?
Like you sign up on Canva.
(12:53):
They ask you like, what's therole they ask you?
Like, what do you want to dowith Canva?
And, you know, some things and,and obviously they know what's
my industry.
They have all that informationabout my role, my
responsibilities, my use case.
But still, when I land on Canva,they still like show me, uh,
the, the, there is nothing likepersonalized in the home screen.
Yes.
Right.
For me versus let's say you signup, like Satya, Satya signs up
(13:17):
or I sign up or somebody elsesigns up.
Like all of us see the same homescreen.
Then what's the point ofcollecting that data?
Right.
Uh, that's, that's what makes methink, right.
So how can companies in yourexperience that they're like,
how can companies go from, youknow, just not just collecting
data, but also like takingactions, uh, on using this data.
Satya (13:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
As I mentioned, I think we're inthe very, very early days.
Um, I think you see a lot of,uh, uh, use cases in the B2C
world, right?
Um, I would, I usually,whenever, you know, people are
looking at some trends in B2B, Ipoint them to B2C.
I would say look at what B2C hasbeen doing because in a couple
of years, B2B SaaS would verywell emulate, right?
(14:03):
So that's where even when youlog into some of the social
apps, whether it's Instagram,Access, you know, I think that's
a personalized experience,right?
So they're using data well.
To really personalize the, um,uh, personalize the experience
or, or the feed, right?
Um, I would say in, in, in termsof SAS, we're still in early
(14:23):
days of, of bringing that levelof personalization.
And I'm sure whether it's Canvaor somebody else, they're deeply
thinking about, Hey, what is theproblem the user is trying to
solve?
How can we personalize theexperience?
And maybe, maybe the answer issometimes personalization is not
required.
Thanks.
Um, because he's trying to do anactivity to derive an outcome.
So let's go stay focused onthat.
(14:45):
Um, let's go stay focused onthat.
Right.
So, so that is also, uh,possible, uh, right.
Um, but, but I think more andmore you will see, uh,
applications, especially theborderlines of, uh, prosumer,
um, um, you know, self serve andeverything else that start to
span over.
And, and, uh, I think majorityof the PLD companies.
(15:07):
is not limited to a geo.
Um, like zoom doesn't sell inus, right?
It is used by users across theglobe, right?
Um, across the globe.
I think when you see that hugediversity of, um, users coming
from, uh, uh, various geos,various, uh, languages, et
cetera, I think personalizationwould play a big role.
(15:28):
So I think, yeah, the SAS appswould evolve just in the early,
early days of that experience.
Yeah.
Sunil (15:34):
Got it.
But, uh, again, like what, what,what is the problem that you
feel, which is there, whichhasn't allowed like SaaS apps
to.
Like, you know, be at thatstage, right?
Because like, see, Instagram hasbeen doing these
personalization, like a lot ofthe Instagram, but you know,
(15:55):
the, the, you know, B2C or D2Cplatforms, right?
Like even e commerce, right?
Like the more, like you go toAmazon and you keep buying like,
you know, uh, more and morestuff.
And then like the feed kind ofkeeps changing to, uh, to, uh, a
more personalized feeds as tolike what you would buy.
Right.
So my Amazon feed would looklike very different from your
(16:18):
feed.
And, you know, that's the sameaspect for any B2C platform, as
you mentioned.
Right.
And, uh, and this has been theresince like many, many years,
right.
Even before like AI came intothe picture, right.
So like now with AI into thepicture, I think it should be
more easier and more, you know,um, like, you know, easier to
(16:38):
get basically more easier to getinto, uh, doing something like
this.
So what, what is it that youfeel in your opinion is stopping
the companies?
This is it.
Um, like, because they don'thave the right data, they don't
have the right tools, they don'thave the right, uh, you know,
process or systems or like, whatis your, uh, opinion on this?
Satya (17:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think this, uh, one of thesecret sauce of many PLG
companies is extremely strongfoundation in data, like, like
every, every bit and piece ofdata, right?
So we talked about the funnel.
We talked about, uh, um, funnelconversion, funnel stages, all
of it, right?
So a lot of that is, is, youknow, experimentation, um, is
(17:23):
driven by data.
And, and, uh, one is, of course,you, you have the data about the
user, um, the org, thecorresponding org that he
belongs to, um, and, and etcetera.
Second thing is, I think theactions that user do, that's
where I think tools like productanalytics are very, very
important because.
What happens is when you get afirst time user is actions in
(17:46):
the app are very, very critical,you know, very, very critical
because that tell you somethingthat he or she might not have
told you, um, in a, in a zoomcall or something, right?
Is he using the app?
What features is he using?
How deeply the feature isadopted, uh, why is he not
adopting the feature?
Right.
Um, is it a discovery problem?
(18:07):
You know, is it a value problem,et cetera, et cetera, right?
So again, you, you have to usethat product data combined with
the, um, uh, combined with his,uh, Uh, you know, behavioral
data on the website combinedwith his formographic data,
formographic means, you know,uh, again, the location, the
org, um, where he belongs.
(18:27):
So unless you combine all threetypes of data, you have to
combine the formographic, the,you know, behavioral data that
he exhibits, uh, on the websiteand blog and other sources or to
your email campaign.
The third thing is in app.
And I think you have to combineall of it to really understand
what is the user trying toaccomplish, right?
You know, why did why didsomebody from a mastercard
(18:50):
signed up on this particular?
Application what is he trying tobehave?
So the foundation for a lot ofstuff Um, and that's where I
think you probably need a datastore or whatever, so that
you're able to bring in all thisdata together and then
understand the account or theuser.
(19:11):
And then you can think aboutpersonalization or, or anything
like that.
So I think the secret sauce to alot of PLG, very successful PLG
companies is data, massive data.
Yeah.
Sunil (19:21):
Nice.
Nice.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's, um,that's, that.
For sure.
I mean, like for any, any, uh,uh, like motion, whether it's
PLG or sales led or, you know,some, something else, right?
Like I feel like data is like atthe core of it for, uh, for
everything, right.
Like, uh, to help you takeinformed decisions.
(19:42):
Right.
So, uh, and, and I, I know wetalked about, and you also
mentioned a little bit like, youknow, a bunch of tools, right.
That, um, That generally makesall of this possible, like makes
all the PLG possible.
Right.
So, um, what do you think aresome of these platforms or what
do you think some of these toolsthat, you know, help.
(20:02):
Companies put together thiswhole PLG motion, right?
Uh, we say like data and thendata tools is like one aspect or
one category, but then I'm surelike, you know, there's like a
whole lot of other, uh,platforms that are required.
And I'm sure like, you know, getBeamer like Beamer and user flow
are, um, you know, like, youknow, part of that tool stack.
(20:26):
So yeah, maybe you can sharemore, uh, on the tools that
enable PLG.
Satya (20:32):
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Yeah, no, uh, absolutely.
Um, I think, uh, I would broadlyclassify into two buckets.
Um, uh, right.
Especially for product teamsthat is new to drive, you know,
better, better activation,better engagement, better
conversion, right?
Um, there is the quantitativeside of the house and then there
is the qualitative side of thehouse, right?
(20:54):
And combining both is super,super important.
And on the quantitative side, Iwould put something like product
analytics, which is a must have,uh, for every B2B SaaS, uh, PMs,
right?
Um, uh, and then you have thingslike, you know, user onboarding
or, you know, product adoptionand product engagement
(21:14):
platforms.
Um, the third is what I callexperimentation, you know, and,
and feature flagging, becauseyou would want to run
experimentation, um, within yourown application, uh, to say,
hey, you know, um, Are ourpeople signing up converting
better through path number oneor through path number two?
So experimentation is a very bigpiece of it.
(21:35):
Um, fourth thing is the feedbackI think the ability to collect
qualitative feedback Um, youknow about the experience itself
what is working what is notworking etc, etc So I would
classify this toolkit into fouror five pillars one.
There is the Usage aspect of it,which is driven from, uh,
product analytics tool.
There is the experimentationaspect of it is, which is driven
(21:57):
by, um, experimentation, featureflagging, all, all of those, um,
uh, tooling, um, third is youhave, uh, you know, the
engagement side of the house,which is where we play, um,
onboarding, you know, feedback,um, you know, uh, driving,
driving, uh, adoption.
And fourth is, you know, thereare There are tooling like, you
know, session replay that allowsyou to watch user sessions and,
(22:20):
and figure out a, which usershave, have stuck through the
journey, et cetera.
So usually there are four orfive pillars, um, that are, that
are, uh, that, that are quiteimportant, especially in context
of B2C, B2B SaaS, I think B2C isa whole different world, um,
because the level of.
Uh, infrastructure and thetooling they require to
personalize the experience.
(22:41):
Um, I think that that hasevolved significantly.
I think B2B SaaS is justcatching up.
Yep.
Sunil (22:47):
Nice.
Nice.
Very, very interesting.
Uh, and, and I think great,great set of tools, um, and, and
good pillars.
Like I've not PLG motion.
Um, just fairly worked with afew companies, uh, on the side
for that.
And, uh, we did have.
Like same pillars, I would say,um, you know, that, that would
(23:12):
help us like, you know, enable,um, the PLG or drive the PLG
motion, uh, for the product.
Right.
So, uh, great stuff there.
So before we move on to the lastsection of the episode, which is
the lightning round, um, youknow, I, I know we, you touched
upon like, Hey, we are in thevery early stages of the whole
PLG.
(23:33):
Uh, scenario.
Right.
So what, what do you feel like,what's next for PLG then, like,
you know, in your opinion, like,okay, what's, what's the future
of PLG lies in the next fewyears?
Satya (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
I think, uh, uh, uh, again, uh,companies like Atlassian
probably, you know, two decadesago kicked off this trend,
right.
And more and more, uh, companieshave been adopting this, uh,
trend.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I think a broader, uh, thesis isif you look at, um, a typical
sales lead, um, they have highCAC and high LTV, right?
(24:08):
You know, that's how sales leadworks.
Uh, if you take a typical PLG,probably they have lower cac,
um, but have medium, uh, LTV,right?
Uh, sometimes they might getlucky and have very high LT.
So that's the fundamental limitsof, you know, whether you go
sales led or, or a PLG and bothare phenomenal.
Um, I would feel that a vastmajority of the PLG companies,
(24:32):
uh, go, go into a hybrid mode,hybrid mode, in a sense, they
would have.
Product led growth and productled sales.
So which is, which is like asales assistant motion, right?
You might not have sellers onthe street, on the field, uh,
but you might have sellerswithin, you know, within, within
your own office or work remotelyto serve the customer.
So I would say 99 percent of thePLG companies.
(24:55):
Uh, go, go into a hybrid model,right?
Where you have product ledgrowth, which, uh, addresses
yourselves or users.
And then you have a product led,um, sales motion where your, uh,
sales and solutioning team ishelping customers, uh, resolve
the problem.
So I would frame that model assomething like an inbound led
sales assist, right?
So you're still driving theneeds inbound.
(25:17):
But you're using the salesassist to do it.
It's not for say classic PLG.
Um, it's not self serve, but Iwould call it product led sales.
So I think at the intersectionof, uh, uh, PLG and PLS is where
the future lies.
Yeah.
Sunil (25:34):
Yeah, I think, I think this, and this is something like
a lot of companies, um, likehave come into this specific
category, which enable, uh,product led sales as well.
Right.
Um, uh, and, and, and I thinkthat that would be, uh, like,
you know, I, I'm not, I've notbeen like very far, like Mary
was following these companies,but I'm sure like they've,
(25:56):
they've already been using AIto, uh, to, You know, drive, uh,
or like, you know, preciselydark or with precision, tell you
like, Hey, these are, this isthe next company, uh, or
prospect, uh, account that, youknow, that, uh, is going to
upgrade.
Right.
So why not give them a littlenudge, uh, and, and, you know,
(26:17):
take them to the finish line.
Right.
So, yeah.
Great.
Great.
Satya.
Uh, so, you know, moving on tothe lightning round, the last
section of the episode.
So, uh, I've already asked youlike too many questions, but you
know, I'm just going to ask youlike three more and, uh, then
you have to answer like withwhatever is on top of your mind.
(26:38):
Right.
So, uh, starting with the firstone, right.
What's the one thing that youwish you would have known?
Yeah.
Satya (26:48):
I think, uh, if I had, uh, a coach or a mentor, um, uh,
when I first started, I think Iwould have been the next more
successful.
I think, uh, people vastlyunderestimate the impact of a,
of a very solid, um, you know,CEO coach or a founder coach or
someone, someone who actuallywent through your shoes.
(27:11):
A couple of years, uh, he'dwrite again, maybe those people
are also busy, but if I had acoach that could mentor me from,
from my very early days ofstarting, because I took a lot
of time to learn, um, uh, maybe,maybe it's my very nature.
I took a lot of time to learn,but had a coach.
See, uh, one thing you have toknow is even people in the top
one percentile in their fieldrequires coaches.
(27:33):
Look at Olymp.
You know, people who go toOlympics or people who are like
top one percentile in theirsports, they also have absolute
coaches, right?
So, um, are they not talented?
Are they not skilled?
No, I think, uh, there arecertain, uh, behavioral aspects.
There are certain, uh, uh,aspects that a coach can double.
So I would say if I go back, uh,decades ago, uh, I would love
(27:55):
to, you know, get, get a mentoror a coach.
Yeah.
Sunil (27:58):
Nice.
That's, that's a veryinteresting take.
I'm, uh, I'm sure I'm Uh, like,you know, there's few people who
after listening to this, likewould go and, uh, you know, find
a coach or maybe they already,if they already have one, they,
they would have their faithreinstated on, uh, if, if they
are losing in like, why should Ihave a coach and all of that?
(28:19):
Um, nice, uh, onto the last one,right?
So what's the one bookrecommendation that you have for
the audience?
Satya (28:28):
Um, I think, I think I'm assuming your audience, uh, um,
you know, you're, you're,you're, um, you know, your
audience are mostly founders,CEOs and, and, uh, SAS, um,
operators.
I think recently I read a book,um, which is, um, Uh, thinking
fast and slow by Daniel Kuhn.
(28:48):
I think it's an amazing bookthat everyone should read
because sometimes we make veryfast decisions.
Sometimes we make slowdecisions.
I think there is a rational whywe make fast decisions and why
we make slow decisions.
Um, I felt it's an amazing bookthat gives you a deeper, um,
underpinnings of why we, youknow, why we think fast and make
(29:08):
decisions and, you know,sometimes why we move slow.
It's an amazing book.
It's a strongly recommend thateveryone reads that.
Sunil (29:14):
Yeah.
Nice.
Nice.
Yeah.
I've, I've read it personallyand like, definitely it's, it's
a, it's a great one for, foreveryone that either, like, not
just like operators or SaaSfounders or anything, but, uh, I
think it's a, it's a good readfor in, in general.
Um, all right.
Awesome.
Uh, thanks again for coming onand, you know, sharing all these
(29:35):
insights with us and, you know,um, like everything about PLG
and I'm sure like, You are atthe, uh, you know, you're,
you're building like twocompanies, which enable PLG, uh,
to the core.
Right.
Um, so, um, great, great stuffthere.
So thanks again, once again, to,uh, to come on the show, take
some time out and share allthese insights.
Satya (29:58):
No, really appreciate your time and thanks for the
opportunity Sunil.
Um, I think in our case, we arebuilding, you know, one company,
of course, like every othermulti product, a SaaS company, I
believe most successful SaaScompanies become multi product.
So we are a single company, twoproduct lines, um, and looking,
looking forward to, you know,building, um, a product adoption
(30:21):
and engagement platform.
We are very specifically focusedon SaaS product teams.
So, so that's.
Kind of where we serve, but, uh,really thanks for the
opportunity.
Yeah.
Awesome.
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