An Architectural Marvel & Mosaic Mastery: The Cathedral Basilica of Saint Louis

Exploring the grand tapestry of St. Louis history, the Cathedral Basilica of Saint Louis emerges not just as a sacred space but as a monument to time itself. Our conversation with John C. Guenther dives into the architectural marvel that is the Cathedral Basilica, weaving through its 352-year history—from its early log church days in 1770 to the stunning mosaics that now grace its walls. We reminisce about the old cathedral, which was built in the early 19th century, and how it all ties into the rich narrative of St. Louis's founding.

Did you know that the Cathedral Basilica boasts the largest collection of glass mosaics in the Western Hemisphere? That's right! With over 83,000 square feet covered in vivid colors and intricate designs, it’s a visual feast that tells the story of faith and community. John shares the creative process behind the mosaics, revealing how artisans captured the light with their craftsmanship, making each piece of glass come alive in a dance of brilliance. This isn't just architecture; it's a living, breathing story that continues to unfold with every visitor who steps inside.

We reveal the significance of the Cathedral Basilica being a pilgrimage site and a testament to the faith of the people of St. Louis. John passionately recounts how the Basilica was designed to bring heaven to earth, a sentiment echoed in the stunning architecture and the historical events that have taken place within its walls. This episode isn’t just about bricks and mortar; it’s about the heart of a city, the stories of its people, and the enduring spirit that has shaped St. Louis.

[00:00] Introduction to St. Louis in Tune

[00:39] Weather Talk and Show Introduction

[01:24] Guest Introduction: John Gunther

[04:31] History of the Old Cathedral

[06:08] The New Cathedral and Its Significance

[21:15] The Mosaics of the Cathedral Basilica

[27:06] Creating the Mosaics: An Artistic Journey

[30:17] The Mosaic Installation Process

[31:44] The Artists Behind the Mosaics

[33:53] Architectural Marvels and Comparisons

[37:36] Renovations and Maintenance

[41:11] Historical Anecdotes and Personal Stories

[46:55] Upcoming Events and Final Thoughts

Takeaways:

• The Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis is a masterpiece that took years to create, and it showcases 83,000 square feet of stunning mosaics that truly leave you in awe.
• Did you know that the old cathedral is actually the only piece of property that has remained under the same ownership since the founding of St. Louis? Talk about history!
• John C. Gunther’s new book dives deep into 138 key moments in the cathedral's development, intertwining the history of St. Louis with the architectural marvel itself.
• The cathedral's mosaics are made of 41.5 million pieces of glass and come in 7,000 shades of color, making it the largest collection of mosaics in the Western Hemisphere!
• Archbishop Glennon’s vision for the cathedral combined Romanesque and Byzantine styles, which is a unique architectural blend not commonly seen in America.
• The process of creating these mosaics is nothing short of miraculous, involving thousands of individual pieces carefully placed to catch the light just right, turning the interior into a sparkling wonderland.

• Cathedral Basilica of Saint Louis – Reedy Press
• John C Guenther - LinkedIn

This is Season 8! For more episodes, go to stlintune.com

#cathedralbasilica #stlouis #stlouisarchdiocese #catedralbasilicastlouis #johncguenther #reedypress...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
352 years of history in St.Louis, the Cathedral Basilica of
St. Louis. Wow. You want toread this book that we're going to
talk about on St. Louis inTune? Welcome to St. Louis in tune

(00:27):
and thank you for joining usfor fresh perspectives on issues
and events with experts,community leaders and everyday people
who make a difference inshaping our society and world. I'm
Arnold Stricker along with cohost Mark Langston. Mark is trying
to keep warm as best as he can.
Oh, my. Yes, you're right. Iwalked out of the house today. I
didn't have a jacket on and Iquickly turned around, I walked back

(00:49):
in. My family was there and Isaid, I'm not going. I grabbed a
jacket and I even have glovesin the pocket of my jacket.
Yeah, you have to at thispoint of time.
I know.
And tomorrow it will be 72 degrees.
Yeah. Nice weekend, too.
Yes.
Yeah. What are you going todo? There's no global warming, though.

(01:09):
No.
We love talking about theweather here in St. Louis, folks,
because it could be zero oneday and 80 the next.
That's right. I like the 80s.
It could snow in July.
No humidity. And I'm fine.
There you are.
Yep, yep. All that.
But we're here cozy in thestudio. We've got a wonderful guest
in his second time visiting usand we're going to talk about his
new book. But folks, we'reglad that you've joined us today.

(01:32):
We want to thank our sponsor,Better Rate Mortgage, for their support
of the show. You can listen toprevious [e-mail] please
help us continue to grow byleaving a review on our website,
Apple Podcast or yourpreferred podcast platform.
And can I add something real quick?
Absolutely.
Ladies and gentlemen, folks,kids of all ages. And you've added.
We've added. You've added.Somebody's added a YouTube channel.

(01:55):
Right.
You could get all the YouTubeson the kxok.com website. You still
can if you go there. There's aplaylist for all of them. But now
it's even more convenient tolook at past shows and see. You can
even see our guests coming up.John, you can look and say, oh, that's
what John looks like.

(02:15):
We can link that to the podcast.
John has a great face for radio.
That's right.
But you'll have a chance tosee what he looks like.
That's why we're in radio market.
I know. That's right. You'renot kidnapped. Yeah. YouTube is really
so check that out, folks.
Thanks for talking about that. Mark.
Yeah. How do you find that?You just go to the YouTube.
They can check on the podcastpage and it just click on the YouTube
button and link there.

(02:36):
You go link there.
Or go to YouTube.com and it's@stl intune.
It's the long saint too. It'snot the abbreviated saint, but they.
Can do the ampersand sign. Ohat stl intune and get the show that
way also.
I learn things all the time onthis show. That's all I can say.
Okay. Sorry to interrupt.
No, that's fine.
Take those exit ramps.
Matter of fact, our thoughtfor the day involves creativity.

(02:59):
As Mark was talking about andgetting the information out and as
our guest will be talkingabout. The whole creative process
is putting opposites togetherinto something that wasn't there
before. I want to say thatagain. The whole creative process
is putting opposites togetherinto something that wasn't there
before. That's Doris WaughBetts. Something that was very creative

(03:21):
that I know. Mark and I, whenwe grew up here in St. Louis, as
did our guest is we watchedthe cathedral Basilica of St. Louis,
the mosaics put together andit was an ongoing process for years
and years and years. Andarchitect John Gunther, who holds
a fellowship in the AmericanInstitute of Architects and was a

(03:43):
lecturer in the College ofArchitecture at Washington University
in St. Louis where he cofounded and taught Mid Century Modernism
in St. Louis, 1930-1970. Asour guest, he serves as president
of the Society ofarchitectural historians, the St.
Louis chapter. And he was inearlier, not today, not last year,
but I think two years ago onthe Gateway Arch, an illustrated

(04:06):
timeline. And he's alsowritten Missouri's Architectural
Treasures, published byMissouri Life magazine and 25 Must
See Buildings in Missouri forUSA Today and the introduction to
the Lost St. Louis Riverfront1930-1943, which documents the historic
riverfront architectureremoved in anticipation of the Gateway
Arch National Park. John,welcome back to St. Louis in Tune.

(04:28):
Thank you very much. It'sgreat to be with you.
It is great to have him. Can Iask him a real quick question just
to start with the oldcathedral and the new cathedral,
which changed to the basilica,but the old cathedral was built before
the new cathedral.
Yes, it's on cathedral blockand it was built between 1831 and
1834, but there were otherchurches there prior to that. It

(04:51):
was designated Cathedral Blockat the outset of the founding of
St. Louis in the city plan.But there was a log Church of 1770
and then a second log church1776 and then a brick church in 1818.
Okay. I was just trying to getmy head around because the old cathedral
is the only church on that rowthat they. That has remained.

(05:13):
Yes. In fact, this is the onlypiece of property that still remains
under the same ownership, theCatholic Church, since the founding
of St. Louis.
Okay. And because we're goingto talk about the cathedral, the
new cathedral, there's a lotthat's a big story.
And to give people a littleunderstanding of this, a church.
Most people understand what achurch is. It's a general term for
a Christian place of worship.A cathedral is the main church of

(05:36):
a diocese, which is thegeographical area under the jurisdiction
of a bishop. And a basilica isa title of honor given to a church
by the Pope, regardless ofwhether it is also a cathedral. So
you can have a cathedral, butthen you can have a cathedral basilica.
And in St. Louis, we have twocathedral basilicas. The old cathedral
is the Bastila Basilica.

(05:57):
Is that right?
And the new cathedral.
I'm even a Catholic, and Ididn't know that.
And the old one is because ofits historic understanding and recognition,
and the new one because of itsarchitectural. Which is why we're
here to talk about cathedralBasilica of St. Louis Book John wrote.
John, why did you write thisbook to begin with?
It's a building that I'veadmired for a long time. I'm Catholic

(06:18):
as well. And so I've had theprivilege of attending various services
there over the years andalways came away with a sense of
awe and inspiration. But alsoI had the opportunity to write this
book beginning in 2023. Andhaving written the Gateway Arch book,
An Illustrated Timeline, Icame to appreciate the power writing

(06:39):
a story, but then amplifyingit with illustrations along every
step of the way. And so withthis book, we have 138 key moments
in the development of not onlythe cathedral basilica, but the old
cathedral and the city of St.Louis and its founding and expansion.
So you can go to variouspoints in history and see an illustration
or two or three that back upthe writing so you have a much deeper

(07:03):
appreciation.
Yeah. And Mark, he goes backall the way was 1643.
1673. 1673, with Marquette andJoliet coming down the Mississippi
river on an expedition, amissionary expedition, and one to
see where the Mississippiriver was going.
And then you just lead furtherand further. You go to. And there's
something I didn't know thatPierre Le Le is not his last name.

(07:27):
I was like, did you know that,Mark? No, I always thought it was
Pierre Lecled.
I'm learning things.
Yeah. When I read this, I waslike, what in the world? Pierre Laclede,
Le Guest.
Yes.
I was like, we never heard Le Guest.
No.
Why is that? Do you know?
I think we've just. It's justbeen shortened over time there to
bear Laclede.
And we never hear AugustAugusta Chouteau's first name, which

(07:49):
is Renee.
Get out of town.
Yeah.
We'll see you, Mark.
Wow.
I think those are some of thethings, John, that make reading a
book like this, and then thepictures are just unbelievable. But
reading a book like this,giving it a real historical foundation
in which people were like, Iunderstand why we are where we are

(08:12):
now.
Yes. Yeah. It's reallyfascinating to see that. And also
of note, as you werementioning, beginning in 1673, I
also document the Illinoismissions, and of note, Cahokia, just
across the river. And there'san amazing church there, the Holy
Family Log Church. It wasfirst built in 1699. So Cahokia was

(08:33):
founded before St. Louis, andthree missionary priests from Canada
came and they started thisparish. And in fact, they celebrated
on December 8, 1698, the dayof the three masses, the feast of
the Immaculate Conception. Andthey actually came across to the
west bank of the Mississippito approximately where Arsenal street
is today, and celebrated aMass on a rock outcropping there.

(08:56):
And so that was one of thefirst Mass that I know of on the
west bank bank of theMississippi. And then in 1699, they
built the Holy Family LogChurch. And sadly, it burnt in 1740,
but then rebuilt in 1799. Soit's the oldest church west of the
Alleghenies and a verybeautiful structure to behold. And

(09:17):
it's in a vertical logconstruction style known by the French.
And amazingly, these blackwalnut logs, which they reused after
the fire, they. They date backto the time of Christopher Columbus
coming to America. So that'show ancient this structure is. They
were growing at that point intime. And another point I would mention
is the dimensions of thischurch are virtually identical to

(09:42):
the second log church oncathedral block in St. Louis in 1766.
So if you want to time traveland see what it would have been like
to go to mass on theriverfront in 1766, visit Cahokia
and go to the Holy Family Log Church.
I'm going, that's crazy.
I am.
I'm going.
It's open for Mass at 9am onSundays for a Latin Mass.

(10:04):
That's unbelievable that it'sstill standing like that.
Yeah. Yeah, I was going to askthat as he was.
Now when was the first. Takeus back because it's I think of the
Cathedral basilica on. Of St.Louis on Lyndall street or as Siri
says, Lindell. Lindell Avenue.It's like the great granddaddy. But
what was the original. Wherewas the original church building

(10:28):
in.
St. Louis when St. Louis wasfounded? Cathedral block was established.
Okay. And explain cathedral block.
And so cathedral block was inthe very center of St. Louis. It
was three blocks up from theriver and right in the center line.
So there's about 18 streetseast west framing that that block.
And it was the center ofreligious activity, social activity
and educational activity. Andso on that block, 1764, there was

(10:54):
a one room log church of 1770that was built there to serve the
purposes. And then later on,as they say, a second log church
was built. But that has beenthe original site of the original
church of St. Louis.
Would that be like now wherethe arch stands or more towards the
river?
It's exactly where you see theold cathedral, the stone cathedral

(11:17):
that is there. From 1831-34 itoccupied a block around that. So
at various points in time. Sothe log church was about in the middle
of that block. And then therewas a cemetery on the northwest corner
and then a rector's house andthen gardens and a well house and
so on. Then a second logchurch was built alongside of it.

(11:38):
And then in 1818, a brickchurch was built at the northeast
corner of that site. And. Andthen at a certain point it was ready,
we were ready for a reallybeautiful church in stone that was
built in 1831-34 and that wasunder the direction of Bishop Rosati.
And that's the one that we know.

(11:59):
Currently is the oldcathedral. Right.
So that's that that cathedralblock is down is still.
It's all, it's all. If youcould imagine a block surrounding
that existing building, eventhough you can't make out a block
because it's landscaped andit's part of the arch grounds now.
But that was the block.
Well, I remember back in theday, I don't remember this, but back
in the day the old cathedralwas surrounded just by buildings

(12:21):
after that. And it was. Theywere wondering what are we going
to do with this? That's when Ithink the arch kind of came into
mind and we need to preservethis like the old rock house. And
they move that.
Yeah. In fact, interestingstory there. In doing the research
for the Los St. LouisRiverfront, the idea there they ultimately,
after analyzing 40 blocks ofthese buildings, only three were

(12:42):
chosen to remain. The oldCathedral, the Old Courthouse, and
the old rock House. And theold rock house would have been just
inside the north leg of thearch, as Eero Saarinen envisioned
it. But when they had torelocate the railroad tracks about
100ft to the west, thatunfortunately meant the destruction
of the old rock house, which,by the way, they saved pieces of

(13:04):
it. And it's in the museum inthe. Under the arch there. But so
we really have just tworemaining structures, the Old Cathedral
and the Old Courthouse. Ofnote, Charles Peterson, a really
great historian, preservationarchitect, part of the national park
parks, and he founded HABSHistoric American Building Survey.
He wanted to save as manybuildings as possible. And then they

(13:27):
measured and photographedthese buildings and documented them.
And then the best examples ofthose buildings, say the cast iron
fronts and so on, they salv.They put them in a warehouse. They
were going to have a museum ofAmerican architecture so that citizens
could still appreciate thearchitecture that was on the grounds
before they were removed.Sadly, there was not funds available

(13:47):
to build that Museum ofAmerican Architecture, so that never
came to be. And then theseartifacts were distributed all across
the country in points unknown.But he did everything he could to
save those buildings. But areally interesting fact that I came
across was there was actuallydiscussion of the old Cathedral being
relocated basically to wherethe KMOV, the Channel 4 tower is

(14:12):
alongside Luther Ely of SmithPark. And fortunately, Charles Peterson,
he fought for that and said,no, it's got to stay right where
it is. And that's one of hisproudest accomplishments, was not
having it moved. And we're allgrateful for that too, that it's
still in the original location.
We as a family, we used to goto the old Cathedral on New Year's
Day and go to Mass. It was ourtradition that we did. I remember

(14:33):
this still hurts me still seethe results of it. Somebody took
a spray can and the pillars ofthe old cathedral, they sprayed eye
level, they sprayed circlesaround it. And they came. Maybe you
don't know this, I don't know.And they came and they wanted to
get rid of it. And I thinkthey scrubbed it. And you can now

(14:54):
see where when they clean thatup, it dug into those pillars. So
maybe next time you go downthere, you see they were there. There
was. It was terrible. Iremember it. I was young, very young,
and I remember going to massand seeing those, and they just let
it sit there for a long timebefore they were able. And they came
in and they scrubbed it somuch, they did scrub some of the

(15:14):
rock, the stone, away fromthose pillars, but it was. Yeah.
And of note, that building iscreated out of Joliet limestone from
Joliet, Illinois. Maybe thatJoliet comes down. But they actually.
They actually built that outof limestone. And it's a little bit
soft.
I was going to say limestoneis a little soft.
It's aged. And you can. Cansee that kind of.
If you look at it, you'll seewhere you'll go, oh, this must be

(15:37):
where some vandal came with ablack spray can. And just.
But of note, this was thefirst building of significance in
the state of Missouri, thefirst cathedral west of the Mississippi
River. And it was designed byMartin and lavey, the first architects
west of the Mississippi.
Wow.
So a lot of firsts there.
Yeah. Something I thought wasthat. I didn't realize either was

(15:57):
that St. Louis was the centerof the diocese, which really was
half the United States.
That's correct.
It was like, what is that?
Right?
Yeah, there's a picture in thebook. It's like, what?
Yeah, 1826. And so, by theway, next year will be the 200th
anniversary of the founding ofthe Diocese of St. Louis. And so

(16:18):
you're correct. It was half ofthe United States. Pope Leo XII was
the one who founded theDiocese of St. Louis. And this is
July 18, 1826. And he dividedthe Louisiana Territory into two.
Diocese New Orleans, which isbasically the state of Louisiana,
and then St. Louis was theremainder of the. Of The Diocese

(16:40):
of St. Louis, of the remainderof the Louisiana Purchase. So basically,
that Louisiana territorydivided in two, doubled the size
of the country, and added avast number of Catholics to serve
in this area, about 50,000Catholics to serve. And so that was
quite a monumental task toserve all of those people in this
burgeoning country.

(17:00):
John, how many Catholics doyou think are in St. Louis right
now? I've heard a couple ofdifferent. 250, 300,000. Apparently.
We have a large population ofCatholics here.
Yes, very much. And that'spart of the book, too. So you can
appreciate the influence ofCatholicism on the city of St. Louis
and how it was founded andexpanded and so on.
Yeah. And as the expansionwent further west, it seemed the

(17:22):
church was like, we need tomove the center of where we need
to be. And there was some.Okay, we need to go to Grand. No,
we need to go further out. Oh,we need to go further out. And they
landed at the current locationon Lindell, right?
Correct. Yeah. In fact,Archbishop Peter Kenrick, he. He
was faced with that task aswell. He was at the. The old cathedral

(17:44):
on the riverfront. And as youpoint out, it was full of buildings
all around and lots ofindustry, lots of shipping coming
and going, outfitting thosewho are going westward. And at a
certain point he felt like itwas so crowded that he was starting
to think that maybe thiswasn't the best location for the
cathedral and his Episcopalseat. So he actually went to St.

(18:06):
John the Apostle andEvangelist and made that his pro
cathedral. And that was about16th street, so a little further
west to serve again theexpanding city and the Catholic population
moving westward. And so he wasthere for a number of years. And
that was his task then, tolook for yet the next new cathedral
location. And they looked at avariety of locations and ultimately

(18:28):
his successor found thearchbishop. Kane found the Lyndall
and Newstead site for thatproperty in 1895.
Arnold Stricker with MarkLangson of St. Louis in tune. We're
talking about the cathedralBasilica of St. Louis book, which
is by John C. Gunther. He'sour guest today. An architect and

(18:50):
an author. And this book is anillustrated timeline because when
you go in here, you will seesome unbelievable references of photographs
that are. I've never seenanything like this. You've done some
yeoman's work on getting avisual representation of what you
talk about in words here inthe book. And where did you get all

(19:13):
these things?
From a variety of sources. AndI might say this be this evolved
from writing a book to acalling. I was totally consumed with
doing this. But I had thegreat privilege of researching in
the archives of the St. LouisArchdiocese. And they rolled out
amazing files for me to reviewand pour over and study and document

(19:34):
and so on. So there was lotsof information there. Also at the
Cathedral Basilica itself,there's an archive on the third floor
of the rectory. And I wasgranted permission to go there and
study for days and hours upontime to actually look at the records
and actually hold what we callmaquettes, samples, designs of the
great arch and the transeptdomes and so on. So to be able to

(19:58):
hold that history and study itfirsthand was truly amazing. Along
with the constructiondocuments, and then there was a variety
of other sources. MercantileLibrary with the various collections,
the Globe Democrat collectionof photographs and so on. I found
it interesting to see whatmoments in time they thought were
worthy of documenting in thenewspaper. And so those are part

(20:19):
of the book as well. Also, theconstruction photos are from a book
from 1911, Notable CatholicInstitutions. And this was from the
St. Louis Public Library,Central Library. And it documented
the construction process from1911 to 1914 or so. Or so 1907 to
about 1914. So we could seehow the building was built. And it's

(20:40):
really amazing because it addsa human touch to it. You see the
workman opposing. Actually,there's a signal man standing really
on the precipice of a granitewall way up in the air, signaling
that it's time for the craneto lift up materials to an upper
level. And definitely pre osha.
And he had his lifeline on.
Yeah, Right. And. And they'rein suit coats and bowler derby hats.

(21:03):
Yeah. It was so classy. But itwas really interesting to see.
Work clothes back then.
The craftsman chipping away atthe stone on between the cathedral
chapel and the cathedral under construction.
Okay, now I want you to gointo why this building became a basilica.
And it's mainly from myperspective, it's the mosaics, which

(21:24):
started when. And when didthey stop? Are they still going on?
They have been completed. Theywere completed in 1988. They began
with the Commission forMosaics in 1912 with the Tiffany
Company of New York for thetwo chapels off to the side, off
to the left side. And thosetwo chapels were designed by Tiffany

(21:45):
and Aristide Leonori, anItalian architect and artist. And
they're done in the Italianstyle. And I mention that because
when you look at that,compared to the rest of the basilica
with the Byzantine style ofmosaics, you note that the Italian
style is a bit flatter. It's abit more painterly, photographic
almost. And when you look atthe Byzantine mosaics, the artisans

(22:07):
would put the mosaics on thewalls, but then they would angle
the glass tesserae mosaicsever so slightly to catch the light.
So when you notice the sparkleof the Byzantine mosaics, that is
why, because they actuallyangled. It's not perfectly flat,
but rather very sensitivelyangled to catch the light. But we
begin in 1912 with thecommission with Tiffany. They are

(22:28):
installed in 1915. They wereon display in Tiffany in New York
before they came to St. Louis,but they were installed in 1915.
And then we proceed fromthere. And Archbishop Glennon wanted
to work with local artisans.And so Emil Frey Art Glass Studios.
Emil Frey senior had the ideaof incorporating a group called Ravenna

(22:49):
Mosaics. And he was fromGermany, Emil Frey Sr. Was, and he
knew of Poole and Wagner fromBerlin, and he knew this was a great
firm with talented artisansand artists who could produce in
very large quantities theseByzantine mosaics that Glennon wanted
to have. And so they formedthe Ravenna Mosaic Company with Emil

(23:09):
Frey senior as a local basefor the operation. And then Paul
and Arno Heideck, father andson, came to, to St. Louis to then
implement, install these,these mosaics in both of them. They
spent their entire livescreating the mosaics that you see
today. In fact, Arnaud passedaway just a few months prior to,

(23:30):
just after the completion ofthe mosaics in 1988. So it was a
really lifelong dedication.And this whole book is a testimony
to all the amazing artists andcraftsmen, architects, builders,
such persistence and thevision that the Archbishop had and
so on to build thismagnificent cathedral. You can appreciate

(23:51):
every step of the way bynoting when these mosaics were put
into place. So I document thefirst Byzantine mosaics in the transepts
in 1923. And then we go onfrom there. 1947-61. Hildreth Meir,
amazing muralist. She wasknown throughout the country. Known,
celebrated, received an honorfrom the American Institute of Architect

(24:12):
for Art. She graces with, Ithink it was about nine mosaic designs
throughout the cathedral thatwe greatly admire today.
Now, let's talk about that alittle bit so people understand.
And we're going to probably goto a break here in a little bit,
but let's tease them a littlebit. How many square footage, square
feet are we talking about orhow many.

(24:32):
Yes.
How many millions of mosaics?
This is the largest collectionof glass tesserae mosaics in the
Western Hemisphere. Uponcompletion, I believe it's been surpassed
a little bit by a church inWashington D.C. but at the time of
completion, we have 83,000square feet of glass Tasserae mosaics.

(24:52):
Wow. And when you think thereare 500 pieces per square foot, they're
very small pieces. That totals41.5 million square feet. And this
is done in 7,000 shades ofcolored glass and 200 different shades
of 24 karat gold mosaics. Soit's an amazing artwork to behold

(25:15):
and it's a must see. I've beentold by friends that if this cathedral
were in Europe, there'd belines around the block going to see
it. I believe that, yeah,everybody should really take the
time to come in and visit andreceive that sense of awe when you
see it.
We're going to talk more aboutthat as we talk about the book cathedral
Basilica of St. Louis, anillustrated Timeline by John Gunther.
But we'll do that right afterour break. This is Arnold Stricker

(25:36):
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(26:22):
Who's driving this thing?
Not me.
W. I don't think I am either.
Welcome back to St. Louis inTune. This is Arnold Stricker with
Mark Langston. We're talkingto John Gunther about his latest
book, cathedral Basilica ofSt. Louis, an illustrated Timeline.
Folks, this is a greathistory, whether you're Catholic

(26:43):
or not. It's a wonderful bookof architecture and art because of
what we just talked about,that the cathedral Basilica of St.
Louis features the Westernworld's largest collection of mosaics,
covering 83,000 square feet ofthe cathedral's interior, composed
of more than 41 and a halfmillion pieces of glass in 7,000

(27:03):
shades of color. Now, John, Iremember these little pieces of tile.
Okay, how big are these piecesand how do they go about doing this?
Do they do. Because I know anartist would draw out what they want
and then they would do likewhat you said, a, a sample.
Right.
And then they would put it upon, on the wall or on the ceiling.

(27:25):
But do they make portions ofthis on a table and then put it up,
or do they take individualpieces and stick it up there? Because
it's, you got to get the colorscheme going and the shading and
everything. How do they do allthis stuff?
It is truly, I consider it amiracle, really, when you see the
process and what has resulted.But let me take you through step

(27:45):
by step, the process. Sothere, there was a master plan, if
you will, for the overalldesign and layout of where these
various mosaics and themesshould go within the cathedral. That
was produced again by EmilFrey Studios and Ravenna. And then
an artist is selected for acertain feature. So let's just say

(28:07):
it's the Arch of Triumph. Andthen that artist will set about creating
a sketch and a drawing,typically in pencil, and that is
reviewed with the client withan approval and then if that receives
approval, then that goes intoa color maquette and so that the
artist and the client canstart to see the colors involved

(28:28):
with this creation. And thenwhat happens is they create what
are called a cartoon. It's afull size drawing of various components
of this great arch. And itwill have. The individual pieces
will be drawn with pencil onthis brown paper. And then they have

(28:51):
to look at the colordescription of this design. And then
they have to choose one of7,000 colors of glass, tess, glass,
tesserae to put in thatposition. And as you can see, they're.
They're just the creation ofthe face. And there's a beautiful
example, I might point out ofMoses, a mosaic that's in the museum

(29:15):
on the lower level of thecathedral. And although it was not
used in the cathedral, itstands as testimony to the amazing
craftsmanship, artistry and soon of those artisans who fabricated
this mosaic. So they pick outvarious shades, 7,000 shades, to
create the face of Moses andothers, along with the background

(29:38):
and what have you. And what isamazing to me though, is these 7,000
shades, they arrive, they'rein the factory as pancakes of glass.
So they have these circularpancakes where they pour out the
colored glass and it hardens.And then from that they take a chisel
and they chisel off a piece tocreate the exact shape they need.
Then they take that piece ofmosaic and they glue it to that hand

(30:01):
drawn cartoon paper on brownpaper, pencil on brown paper, and
they glue it onto the face andthey create this panel. Now, this
panel may be the size of adesk here. It may be 2 1/2, 3ft by
4ft. Then. So this is allbacked up by this paper. Then they
climb up the scaffolding tothe ceiling and there is a wet mortar

(30:22):
cement applied to the concretestructure. And then they position
it and push it into that wetmortar. And then they tap the mosaics
to give a slight angle so thatit catches the light. They let that
dry and harden. Then they pullthe paper off, and then they clean
it and grout it. But what'spart of this process is it's all

(30:43):
done. The image is done inreverse. I was going to say that
you're looking at the face ofthis mosaic, but that face will be
applied to the, to the surfaceof the dome. And then when it's pulled
off, then you see it and howit's supposed to appear. So when
there's letters written inmosaics in the ceiling, they were
all in reverse originally onthe floor of Rivetta mosaics. And

(31:05):
then what is truly amazing isthese are. They create this panel,
this master panel diagram thatshows this panel. Here it is next
to the next panel, and so onand so forth. And they're not square
panels. They are in and outand so on. And so these are created.
They were created in Ravennamosaics, a lot of them in Germany
and sent over and then lateron in Fredericktown, Missouri. But

(31:28):
they're fabricated in thestudio and then brought to the site
and then put up. So they allhad to fit absolutely perfectly.
So, again, I consider thisalmost a minor miracle that it came
out so beautifully, but thatjust speaks to the quality of the
artists, the artisans, thecraftsman that installed it.
Now, are these pieces, arethey like clear colored glass or

(31:48):
are they like what I wouldcall tile that we would see, like
in a bathroom kind of thing?
Yeah, they are a solid colorof glass. Glass, okay. And then the
gold Tess Ray, they applied afilm of gold and baked that on to
the. To the glass piece. But,yes, it's a solid panel of glass,
of colored glass that comes.That makes these.
So each one has a little goldon it, too?
Not each and every one, but.But many do.

(32:12):
Unbelievable.
Wow, look at that. Okay. Yeah,so that's page 135, Mark. Okay, we'll
have to. I'll have to postthat one up.
Yes. Yeah.
All right.
And how many different artistswere involved with this?
There were quite a few over time.
That kind of were the. WithAmo Frey. Of who. With all of the.

(32:34):
Because it seems like themosaics kept going and going. We
brought education in. And howmany. Like what the church was doing
to. As far as mission work andthings like that.
Yeah. So August Etkin was aprofessor and an artist in Germany.
He designed those firsttransept mosaics. The vestibule,
which is quite amazing, wasdesigned by John von Wicht in 1931.

(32:56):
That was installed. That's thebarrel vault with a lot of glass,
golden glass tesserae in thereto reflect more light from the three
arched windows that face tothe south. So that was another amazing
piece. Felix Baumhauer wasanother artist. John DeRozan also
designed the Arch of LastJudgment, and as I mentioned, Hildreth

(33:18):
Meir, a number of thosepanels, a number of those designs.
And then Mary Reardon for themore modern. Just a number of artists.
And then behind them are allthe craftsmen in the studio realizing
their vision for those coloredmosaics and the proper choice.
That's insane. That's insane.Some of These scenes depict from

(33:39):
the Old and New Testament, aswell as principal doctrines of the
church and its history in theUnited States, with an emphasis on
St. Louis. Now, I wanted toask this question because. And maybe
I'm sure you know this, but ifyou don't, that's okay. That Barnett
Haynes was the architecturegroup and was the building itself.

(34:01):
The building itself was prettymagnificent. It was. They were like
likening it to St. Peter's inRome, but at the same time, on the
inside it was just like ablank canvas. And so the artists
had this whole canvas. Fry hadthis whole canvas of basically concrete
and stone to work with. Butthe building itself was pretty magnificent

(34:21):
on its own.
It absolutely was. Andactually George D. Barnett, who designed
the building, he actually madecomparisons to Westminster Cathedral
in London, England.
Westminster, okay.
And he compared all thedimensions, the seating capacities,
the heights and so on with theSt. Louis Cathedral coming out on
top on all of these comparisons.
Wow.
So he was taking a worldviewof how this would look when it was

(34:44):
completed. But I might pointout that an interesting side story,
Barnett Haynes and Barnett,local firm and it's two brothers
and a brother in law. Andthey, the Barnett's were sons of
George I. Barnett, who wasconsidered the first architect in
St. Louis, and he designedTower Grove House and also the Governor's
Mansion in Jefferson City anda number of notable works. But George

(35:07):
Barnett, actually, BarnettHaynes and Barnett were actually
hired by Kane to actuallybegin the first design, which is
in the book a Roman sort ofbasilica style. But when Glennon
came in in 1903, he didn'tcare for the design. He felt that
the design should be acombination of a Romanesque exterior

(35:27):
and a Byzantine interior. Hesaid his rationale was that Gothic
cathedrals have these greatarches and spires that reach towards
heaven, but the Byzantine withits great domes brings heaven to
earth. So that was his theoryof why this building should look
the way it does today. And sohe actually called for a new competition,

(35:49):
an international competitionwith European architects from across
the United States and ofcourse, our own Barnett, Haynes and
Barnett. And ultimately theywon this competition. So they designed
the building for a secondtime. And so they were selected as
winners in 1906 and then beganpreparing the plans for that cathedral

(36:10):
per the requirements of thiscombination of Romanesque and Byzantine.
I looked up on Wikipedia aboutthe Basilica Cathedral and they give
homage to Tom Barnett as thearchitect and who was the son, brother,
rather than George, who wasthe mover and shaker behind it all.

(36:31):
I was like, somebody probablyneeds to correct that A little bit
and give both of them some credit.
Yeah, I'm sure it was acollaboration, to be sure. Yeah.
Architects do not work inisolation. It's a collaborative effort.
Can you imagine walking into ahuge concrete and stone structure
and saying, have at it. Whatwould you do here? I'm sure you have
had clients that said, hey,money's no object. Design me what

(36:54):
you want to design for a houseor if it was a. An art building or
a commercial building and haveat it. That's wow, free reign to
anybody like that.
Yes. And the money is noobject is a very rare occasion, but
in fact it's great. ArchbishopGlennon said that he expected this
building to cost about amillion dollars because it's not

(37:15):
good to have a debt with theAlmighty. So they were held to the
these budgets and it was builtover time as funds were available.
And it's coming, it's going tobe coming up on 100 years anniversary.
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
The official day that it wasopened was in 1926. 26, yeah.
So next year. And it's goneunder. Several renovations, several

(37:39):
roofs and cleaning of theoutside and even some of the stones
being replaced on the outside.What I understand from reading your
book.
It is a massive structure andreacted in different ways over time.
There was, in the 1950s, therewas, you can imagine with the coal
burning and the pollution andthe accumulation of soot on the gray

(38:01):
granite facade. There was agreat cleaning of that facade at
that point in time. And theyalso replaced the green tile roof
as well. But then later onthey. They took a restoration renovation
that went way beyond it. Ittook several years and it was necessary
with. With there was a part ofthe north. Sorry, the southwest tower

(38:24):
was starting to pull away alittle bit. There was a crack developing.
So Alper structural engineerdevised a way to. To reinforce that
and bring it back in alignmentwith. With some stainless steel reinforcing
rods as well. So they restoredand then they tuck pointed the joints
as well as replacing some ofthe damaged granite, they replaced
the guttering system and soon. And then there was also the replacement

(38:48):
of the transept domes whichhad started to leak and actually
damaged the transept paintingsinside. So they had to take those
down. They were put in 1924 inan El seco method, that's a wet plaster
on dry plaster method wherethey actually painted the murals
as opposed to doing them intile. That was because they were

(39:09):
pushing for the hundredthanniversary of the Diocese 1926 to
have as much of the cathedralcompleted as Possible. So that's
what they did. But that lastedfrom 1924-84, and then at that point,
that's when the new mosaicswere installed in 1984-86. But that
was a result of some of thewater damage in those domes. They're

(39:29):
constantly keeping up with themaintenance of this great cathedral
and keeping it watertight andstructurally sound. And in fact,
the most recent work was theRE illumination, the transformational
illumination of the interiorby a friend of mine, Randy Burkett,
a great lighting designer,who, by the way, has lit the Gateway

(39:49):
Arch three times ever, eachtime with greater efficiency.
It's great. Yeah.
But this time with. With theCathedral Basilica, they've installed
these, an array of LED lights,and they use 15% of the energy previously
used. And you can see themosaics in much better illumination
in a whole new way. Hats offto Randy and his team at Burkitt
Lighting, Reed Burkitt. Andthey did a magnificent job.

(40:12):
Yeah. Because just to be able.You walk in, I remember being in
there just briefly one time,and it's. You're craning your neck
to see everything. And thatwas when there was still scaffolding
going on. They were stillworking on some of the ceiling and
some of the walls. In thinkingabout this, in taking a tour, which
I'm sure they do, they give tours.
They do. They have docents whogive wonderful tours on a fairly

(40:34):
regular basis. I would callahead and see when those are, I believe,
afternoon mass on Sundays. Youcan take a tour after that.
And are there other churchesthat have similar kinds of mosaics
in the area? Do you know of.
I'm sure there are some, but Iwould have to.
You focused on this one?
Yeah, I'm really focused onthis one.

(40:55):
Yes.
Yes.
I would say anyone that wantsto go on a tour of the Cathedral
Basilica really needs to readthis book first because it will make
that tour. You might know morethan the tour guide. Matter of fact,
tour guides ought to read thisbook. You catch that, tour guide?
I hope it helps.
Yeah. Is there anyone buriedin the. In the cathedral?
Yes. Yes. There arearchbishops that are interred in.

(41:17):
There's a tomb of internment,a chapel of Internment on the lower
level, below the All SaintsChapel. It's on the. So if you go
down to the lower level to theMosaic museum, if you turn right
to go down that hallway,you'll see that Chapel of Internment.
Okay, so there are severalarchbishops interred there.
Is that several? Okay. Wow.All right.

(41:38):
Yeah. And in fact, of note,Bishop Rosati, who Built the old
cathedral. He had passed inRome while he was there on business.
And he was. He was buriedthere for about 111 years. And then
the Archdiocese of St. Louiswrote to Rome asking that his mortal
remains be brought back to St.Louis. And so that was granted. And

(42:00):
he was interred in this chapelof internment for a number of years.
That was 1954, when he cameback to St. Louis. And then there
was a decision made, a requestthat his body be interred in its
ultimate resting place underthe altar at the old cathedral which
he built. And so that is hisfinal resting place.
Oh, which really makes sense.

(42:21):
It does, really makes sense.
Now, you had a story for usbefore we went on the air about someone
came to you and asked you a question.
Yes. I had a very movingexperience on Sunday. I was signing
books at Barnes and Noble andWest county center, and this young
lady came up to me and askedme if there was a piece of writing

(42:42):
in the book about the firstbaptism in St. Louis. And in speaking
with her, she let me know thatshe was a descendant of this young
Marie, a French child, Frenchinfant who was baptized under a tent
for lack of church. They didnot have a church on cathedral block

(43:03):
at that point in time. SoFather Murin baptized the French
infant Marie. She was thedaughter of Jean Baptiste Deschamps
and Marie Pinon. And she wasborn in September of 1765 and baptized
in 1766. And here with me wasthe descendant of that lineage.
Can you imagine, Mark?

(43:23):
Absolutely amazed. It was sucha great honor to meet her. And then
she asked me if in the bookthere was an image of this event
memorialized in the mosaics inthe cathedral. And yes, there is.
It is in the arch. It's in theDome of local history area in the
south arch. And you can see inmosaics you can see the tent with

(43:45):
the baptism occurring. It's onthe left hand side of the arch.
Amazing.
So that's the beauty when youcome to the cathedral in the dome
of local history, you can seethe history of St. Louis Saints who
spread Catholicism acrossAmerica. And all those who've had
such a great impact in thisregion, Cardinal Ritter, Father de
Smet, Joliet, Marquette, theBolivian missions and so on. So you

(44:08):
can stand there and look upand just learn a lot just by reading
and looking at the mosaics andhave a greater appreciation of all
those who have come before.
Wow.
So many of those bishops nameshave become part of our community.
Absolutely, they really have.
It's amazing. Now, I don'tknow if anyone's going to talk about
the papal visit. The Pope cameto St. Louis. I think he stayed.

(44:29):
I don't know if he stayed atthe rectory or. There's a building
next to the rectory. He spentthe night here even.
Yes. At the Archbishop'sresidence in the corner there, a
little bit to the west. Andyes, that was an amazing event.
I don't believe we've ever hada Pope until that come to St. Louis.
I could be wrong, but, yes, that.
Was first and last so far.

(44:49):
So far, yes. Yes. So at anyrate, those couple of days were very
momentous, to say the least.And. And so many people were able
to attend Mass there at thenew cathedral, at the Cathedral Basilica,
which had just been dedicatedas a basilica, and also to. Down
at the, I believe, the EdwardJones Dome. He said mass to the youth

(45:10):
down there. I would point outsomething that I've learned since
I wrote the book was at themass at the dome, he actually used
a chalice from the pastor ofthe Holy Family Log Church of Cahokia.
So this chalice, dated, it wasover 300 years old. And he was able
to use that chalice tocelebrate Mass.
I'm getting.

(45:31):
So, again, it's thatinterconnectivity of history, connecting
the dots of history that Ifind absolutely fascinating.
And you do a great job ofthat, John. Kudos to you for this
book and previous books, butthis book has just been just the
visual along with the history.It has been unbelievable. Makes me
want to actually go take a tour.
Oh, yeah.
And see exactly what we'vebeen talking about.

(45:52):
Both of my boys have had theirconfirmations. The basilica, the
new cathedral, of course, thatwas. That was fun.
Yeah.
And I've got a. I've got afamily member getting married there.
I've never gone to a weddingthere either. It's quite a place.
It really is.
Yeah. It's worth stopping inand visiting. Yeah.
You mentioned some of thenames that we know so well today.
So when Bishop Berg.

(46:13):
The Bergh High School.
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So whenit was he. When he was designated
to serve this vast area, Ifound it interesting that he spent
the first couple of yearstraveling throughout Europe asking
for help, asking for funding,asking for missionaries to come help
him because of this vast area,in the large population. And so he

(46:34):
asked Father Joseph Rosati tocome over. Father Felix d', Andres,
Mother Rose PhilippineDuchenne. Father Neerings.
There it is.
Father De Smet.
Yeah.
So all these names that weknow today, they answered the call
and came.
Here I didn't know Rezadi Kingwas at. Name of.
Yes, yes. Combination. Combination.
Yes. Wow.

(46:55):
You can see John. And purchasea book, get a book signed, listen
to a conversation that he'sgoing to do. I'm going to give you
some dates here. November 21stat the Oasis Institute, and that's
from 1 to 3pm that's on 50 GayAvenue in Clayton. Then on the 22nd
of November, he's going to beat Clifford Cave branch library from

(47:19):
2 to 4pm that's down onTelegraph Road on Dec. 7 at the Old
Cathedral Museum, the Basilicaof St. Louis, King of France. Old
Cathedral Museum. And thatwill be after Mass, is that correct?
Yes, after 10:30 mass andafternoon mass.
Okay. And then on December12th at the Kirkwood Public Library
from 6pm to 8pm and also atthe Kirkwood Public Library on February

(47:46):
5th from 7 to 9pm but you can.How can people keep an update of
where you're going to be,John? Is there a website or something?
Well, I would suggestcontacting Reedy Press and just checking
in with them to see any kindof new listings.
Okay. Yeah. Now, my lastquestion, and we might not get to
what we're going to get to,Mark, but that's okay.

(48:07):
That's okay.
What was your biggest holysmokes moment?
There's some interesting ones,actually. There's several of them.
But let me do mention thisone. I came across the words of Monsignor
Tellthorst, who was a rectorthere, and he really put things in
perspective for me in studyingthis magnificent cathedral and the

(48:28):
mosaics. And he was addressinghis parish and the members of the
parish, and he said, perhaps amosaic in the end is our best comparison
as each of us adds to thebeauty of the parish family and creates
a magnificent design for theglory of God. So imagine all these
millions of mosaicstranslating that to people.

(48:49):
People.
Yes. And so, by extension, Ithink about reflecting the history
of the Cathedral Basilica ofSaint Louis and all those who dedicated
their lives and efforts to itsrealization. Perhaps a mosaic is
our best comparison with themand then as they contributed their
part to the beauty that webehold today. But I would also further

(49:10):
ask that we all reflect on howeach of us, like a mosaic, contribute
our unique gifts to make ourworld more beautiful.
Sid, I appreciate your calling.
Thank you.
Thank you.
As I'm listening to you andI'm paging through the book, I believe
you're right. I think it was acalling for you. It's wonderful that
you've gathered all thisinformation from all these different

(49:32):
places. And you've attempted,I would say, to fill them into the
book, but done very well withit. Yeah. Quite a calling. Thank
you.
And it's not that you're justan author. You're an architect who
appreciates this. Youunderstand what went into building
this and the artwork that isthere and your Catholic faith just

(49:52):
combined and it, like Mark wassaying, labor of love.
I would say so.
Thank you very much for comingin, John, and talking to us.
Can I ask, John, where youwere? Where'd you go to school?
I attended Chaminade Highschool here in St. Louis.
Okay.
And a wonderful story there,the influence of our teachers. I
took a technical draftingclass my senior year.
Okay.

(50:12):
I think it was his lastsemester of senior year. Mr. Walter
Resch. When I turned in myassignment for the design of an addition
to our house, he looked at itand he said, have you ever thought
about being an architect?Those eight words changed my life
forever. And he handed meinformation and brochures on various
colleges of architecture, andI never looked back. I went forward

(50:34):
with that. I attended theUniversity of Kansas, had a wonderful
education there, and had theprivilege of teaching there and working
in Lawrence, Kansas, beforereturning to St. Louis. And I've
had a wonderful 50 years inarchitecture picture.
It's amazing what teachersinfluence can be with the right words
at the right time.
Amen. Yeah, absolutely.
It worked out good for thebook and for all of us for the historical

(50:56):
aspect of what's going on here.
Thanks for coming in, John.
Thank you so much.
Mark, do you have some days ofthe day?
Oh, I could. I know it'sVeterans Day today. Yesterday was
area code day, and we.
Have a new area code here inthe St. Louis area.
Is that right?
Yes.
Only you would know that.
Don't ask me what it is. Itbegins with a five, though.
Begins with. Okay.
And for those of you who arelistening, we're recording this on

(51:18):
Veterans Day.
Which is Armistice Day, isn't it?
That's correct.
1111. Yep. It's also ChickenSoup for the Soul Day, which is good.
Chicken Soup for the Soul.Chicken soup's good anytime.
Yeah, I'm a big. I'm a big fanof it. National Happy Hour Day. Let's
see. National French Dip Day.Do you like French dips, anybody?

(51:41):
Yes.
And it's also Get OutdoorsWeek when it's cold. Okay.
Yes. Always a time to do that.I can give you some mental floss.
Why do people put rubber duckson the dashboards of Jeeps? Have
you seen that?
Yeah. I'd like to know this.
It's called Duck Jeep. Andapparently a Canadian woman was road
tripping in the States, andafter an encounter at a rest stop,

(52:05):
she decided to do somethingsmall. But Conchi bought a rubber
duck from a nearby store,wrote nice Jeep on it, and placed
it on a Jeep in the parkinglot. And that simple gesture sparked
a movement and Jeep ownersjoined in. And the rest is history.
Yeah.
Now it's like in your way whenyou're driving, I see some of them.
They'Re like so many in thedashboard, they can't see out.

(52:28):
Can you see?
They can't see out.
I know it.
I think I have. I could do onejoke, Mark.
Okay, one joke. That's all wecan take John. Okay. Don't let him
do any more than one John.Just reach across.
Okay. Sorry I said this onelast week, but it still would work.
Okay.
John will appreciate this.Yesterday I helped my Neighbor hang

(52:49):
a 75 inch TV he bought fromsome guy on the street. When he turned
it on, it was the menu from kfc.
Love that. Okay, that's good.
We're out of time, folks. Wethank you for joining us. That's
all for this hour.
Thanks.
If you've enjoyed thisepisode, you can listen to additional
[e-mail] considerleaving a review on our website,

(53:10):
Apple Podcast or yourpreferred podcast platform. Your
feedback helps us reach morelisteners and continue to grow. Want
to thank Bob Berthasell forour theme music, our sponsor, Better
Rate Mortgage, our guest, JohnGunther and co host Mark Langston.
And we thank you for being apart of our community of curious
minds. St. Louis in tune is aproduction of Motif Media Group and
the US Radio Network. Rememberto keep seeking, keep learning, walk

(53:32):
worthy, and let your lightshine. For St. Louis in tune, I'm
Arnold Stricker.