April 22, 2025 • 46 mins
Get ready to swing for the fences as we delve into the fascinating realm of St. Louis baseball with Ed Wheatley, an award-winning author and film producer deeply involved in St. Louis sports. Wheatley discusses his new book, From St. Louis to Cooperstown: Baseball Legends, Born and Made in the Gateway City, sharing fascinating stories and little-known facts about Hall of Fame inductees with ties to St. Louis. The book profiles not only the well-known Hall of Famers but also the many overlooked players from the Cardinals, Browns, and Negro Leagues. Who knew that the journey from the baseball diamond to Cooperstown is filled with such rich narratives?
We discuss the importance of remembering those who might not have made the headlines but played pivotal roles in shaping the game in St. Louis. With a sprinkle of humor, Ed recounts the quirks of baseball history, including the trials and tribulations and heartfelt stories of players who faced adversity but still left their mark on the field. So, grab your glove, settle in, and join us as we celebrate the legends and the legacy of St. Louis baseball—because every player has a story, and every story deserves to be told!
[00:00] Honoring St. Louis Baseball Legends
[00:46] Introduction to St. Louis in Tune
[02:06] Meet Ed Wheatley: Baseball Historian and Author
[03:19] The Rich History of St. Louis Baseball
[04:26] The Importance of Broadcasters and Writers
[06:16] Legendary Players and Their Stories
[11:23] The Role of Managers in Baseball
[16:02] St. Louis' Impact on Baseball History
[23:45] Baseball Trivia and Guest Introduction
[24:14] Better Rate Mortgage Advertisement
[25:01] Dred Scott Heritage Foundation Announcement
[26:16] Interview with Ed Wheatley: St. Louis Baseball Legends
[32:23] The Legacy of the St. Louis Browns
[37:39] Upcoming Book Launch Events
[44:16] Final Thoughts and Fun Funnies
Takeaways:
- The podcast dives deep into the rich history of St. Louis baseball, showcasing legends like Hornsby and Musial, and their impact on America's favorite pastime.
- Ed Wheatley shares fascinating stories about lesser-known players in the Hall of Fame, proving that not all heroes wear capes—or are household names.
- We learn about the significant contributions of the Negro Leagues in St. Louis, highlighting players who broke barriers in baseball history.
- The episode emphasizes the importance of storytelling in baseball, as Ed discusses how radio and television broadcasters shaped fans' love for the game.
- With over 20,000 players having graced the major leagues, the odds of making it are slim, and Ed provides surprising stats that reveal just how rare it is!
- Listeners are treated to witty banter and anecdotes, making the complex history of baseball feel relatable and engaging for both die-hard fans and casual listeners.
This is Season 8! For more episodes, go to stlintune.com
#stlouiscardinals #stlcardinals #stlbrowns #negroleagues #coopertown #halloffame #buschstadium #majorleaguebaseball
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The images of St. Louisbaseball legends are painted on Busch
Stadium's left field wallhonoring their retired uniform numbers
and their inductions into theNational Baseball hall of Fame in
Cooperstown, New York. Nameslike Hornsby, Dean, Musial, Schoendienst,
Gibson and Brock. But themural only highlights 13 of the 55
players inducted into the hallof Fame who played for the National
(00:21):
League St. Louis Cardinals?Who are these other players and what
are their stories? And whatabout the nine men from the American
League St. Louis Browns whoseplaques also hang in Cooperstown?
Who are they and what aretheir stories? Stories and five of
the 37 members of the NegroLeagues have been inducted into the
hall of Fame. They have tiesto the St. Louis Giants and the St.
Louis Stars. Who were they andwhat made each of them stand out
(00:43):
over the thousands of AfricanAmericans playing in the league?
We're going to find out moretoday on St. Louis in Tune. Welcome
(01:04):
to St. Louis in Tune and thankyou for joining us for fresh perspectives
on issues and events withexperts, community leaders and everyday
people who make a differencein shaping our society and world.
I'm Arnold Stricker along withco host Mark Langston who is on assignment
and we are glad that you'vejoined us today. We want to thank
our sponsor Better RateMortgage for their support of the
show. You can listen toprevious shows by the way@stlintune.com
(01:27):
Please help us continue togrow by leaving a review on our website,
st.lintune.com, apple Podcastsor your preferred podcast platform.
Our return to civility todayis hold the door open and let a bunch
of people go in front of you.Especially if you're afraid of what
is waiting for you inside.I've never been scared about going
into a place. I've held thedoor open for people not because
(01:51):
it was raining but because itwas polite thing to do and even if
they got ahead of you in line,that's okay, everybody's gonna get
through. Let's try to be civilfolks. Let's bring back some civility
to our world because thingsare still a little crazy. Our guest
today, he's what I would callSt. Louis in tunes, baseball historian,
(02:13):
author. He's our in house kindof guy because he's been here a lot.
He is the author of a new bookFrom St. Louis to Baseball Legends
Born and Made in the GatewayCity and I want to give Ed a little
introduction here because someof you may not be acquainted with
him. Ed Wheatley is an awardwinning and best selling author and
film Producer deeply involvedin St. Louis sports, he serves on
(02:35):
multiple Sports hall of Fameboards of directors across the St.
Louis region. His manypublished books, matter of fact,
he's the author of six books Ibelieve have received national recognition,
including Sports Digestselection as the best book published
on baseball and a nominationfor the Society for American Baseball
Research Lawrence RitterAward. His multiple films shown on
(02:56):
the PBS network have allreceived regional Mid America Emmy
Award nominations, including aWin. His films have appeared in the
acclaimed National Baseballhall of Fame's annual film festival
and have provided him multipleopportunities to speak at baseball's
venerable institution inCooperstown. Ed welcome back to St.
Louis in Tune.
It's great to be here today.It's always good to talk about baseball's
(03:19):
best town in America. And thepurpose of this book was if we really
are the best town in Americafor baseball, we need to know the
baseball history and we needto know who all these men, as you
spoke about, the 55 men in theCardinals franchise that are in the
hall of fame, the 15 men thatare in the Browns, members of the
hall of Fame that played ayear or two or career here in St.
(03:43):
Louis. But and we have theNegro Leagues not to forget. And
it's also one of the thingsthat makes St. Louis such a good
baseball town is our coverage,whether it's on the radio or in the
newspaper. And I even get intowho were those men that are in those
areas of the hall of Fame.
Yeah. Because looking at thebook here, the book's kind of divided.
(04:05):
The book is divided intoplayers of the St. Louis Cardinals,
players of the St. LouisBrowns, players of the Negro Leagues,
players from St. Louis whoplayed elsewhere, the Ford Frick
Award winning broadcasters andthe Baseball Writers association
of America and winners, sports writers.
(04:25):
Correct.
And I'm really glad that youincluded the latter two. And I want
to talk about that a littlebit because most people think about
it's just about the players.But as you were mentioning radio
and TV and the writers, whatwe read is just as important to have
the fan base go.
It's not only important tohave the fan base going, but it's
the way these men taught usthe game. And we took that love of
(04:48):
the game into our whole livesand it has become generation to generation
handed down. You think abouthow Harry Carey in these days when
baseball wasn't on television,no, Harry came along and really told
the Cardinals they had lousyannouncers in a carry way. But you
know what he really did. Andyou think about this now, he said
(05:11):
the guy Sitting on his patioor on his front porch, needs to see
the game like he's sitting inthe stands and think about his cadence
of the pitcher looks in, toesthe rubber, gets the sign, here's
the wind up, the stretch, thepitch. You saw that in your mind.
The ball game in those dayswhere there was no television. And
(05:31):
not only that, St. Louis beingthe farthest west, the most Southern.
We had this people loving usfrom coast to coast. St. Louis is
what listened everybody to thewest and south, but even back East,
Bob Costas talks about goingand sitting in his dad's car back
east in New York listening toCardinal games.
Interesting.
(05:51):
And so that is what reallybuilt the love of this France, these
franchises. I can't just saythe franchise, because we're really
speaking of three franchisesin this story.
And this isn't a book just forSt. Louis fans. This is a book for
baseball fans. And as you weregetting into that, you go into some
biographies with some basicpersonal and professional stats.
(06:13):
And I really like the nicknamekind of thing.
Yeah.
But let's start with some ofthese well known players that we
know, the ones that are on thewall, left field. And then let's
move to some of the. Maybe notso well known.
Yeah, yeah. We all know themore recent ones like Ozzy and Gibson
and Brock. And I go in andspeak in a lot of schools and you
just got to kind of holy cow,paraphrasing Harry Carey again. But
(06:38):
you'll talk. And kids don'tknow who Stan Musial is here in one
of the greatest ballplayers,Stan Musil. And we don't know about
him in the schools. Theseyoung kids, it's not being passed
down from the parents like wereceived it. They're not seeing baseball
the way we saw it in thenewspapers. It's being minimized.
(07:00):
So it's important that we notonly learn about those who have touched
our lives, but go back to theearly days of baseball. George Sisler,
one of the greatest men everto play the game. Ty Cobb called
him the perfect player. Threeyears in a row. His average was.400.
And so who was Sisler? He wasin that famous picture there in Cooperstown
(07:24):
at the first induction in 1939when they had him outside. But he
played for the Browns. Butbecause Baltimore has nothing to
do with the Browns, there'snothing heralding him. And that's
what we try to do in my booksand also with the Browns fan club.
But we should know all thesepeople because there are the heroes.
We had and these are the menwho made us watch the game. They
(07:47):
won pennants. Only the Yankeeshave more world championships than
the Cardinals. So it'ssomething that it is in St. Louis.
I always, when I wrote thebook Baseball in St. Louis, Little
Leagues to Major Leagues, allI could think about was Susan Sarandon
walking to the ballpark in theopening scenes from Bull Durham movie.
(08:08):
The church bells are ringing.And you know, it's a Sunday, people
walking to the church andshe's walking past them and said,
I've tried all the religions,I truly have, but it. But baseball
meets my soul day in and dayout. Baseball is the religion of
St. Louis. Opening Day is ournational holiday. So let's keep that
up. But let's remember how wegot there. And it's through these
(08:31):
men and they played in allthese franchises. But it's these
men that you spoke of withthose numbers, they're the heroes
of St. Louis baseball.
They really are. You have. I'mjust going to open the book to a
random page. I know Dick Allenbecause he was playing when I was
in school. Jim Bottomley,Sonny Jim. Now, most people wouldn't
(08:53):
know him. I've heard of him,but that's about it.
He was a premier firstbaseman. Those 20s teams going into
the 30s, he was very tophitter. He lost out a couple MVPs
because he had a guy namedRogers Hornsby to his right. But
he was a key cog in thosegreat pennants. He was one of the
(09:14):
people that we got to rememberthat when Branch Rickey left the
Browns and went over to theCardinals and created the first minor
league farm system for a majorleague team. Because, see, in those
days, what we would call theequivalent, they were just independent
teams. They had no allegianceto the major league team. People
would go from them to themajor leagues as free agents, okay.
(09:36):
And he said, no, I'm going tosign them all to contracts when they're
playing down there, and I willdevelop them. I have an eye of talent.
That's how he. The Brownswould not let him build that minor
league system. The Cardinals,Sam Braden had just bought the team,
said, make me a winner. Hedoes. World pennants in 26, 28, 30,
(09:57):
31, 34, 42, 43, 44 and 46. Andit's because these men, we have all
those pennants that I justrattled off. And Bottomley was one
of the key players for those teams.
And I didn't know BranchRickey was a ballplayer himself.
Oh, yes, he was. He was theworst catcher in major league history,
(10:19):
he holds the records for moststeals against a catcher at 12 in
a game. The Washington Postheadline, which I have a copy of
the headline said to stealagainst Ricky, start running. But
he was not a very good player.But he was a great. He had the could
perceive talent and develop itand he knew how to instruct it. But
(10:39):
he's also, I don't want to sayegomaniac, but he, he really believed
he, he was the top of thepyramid. That's why he did well with
the Cardinals and then had toleave because he didn't get along
with the owner after all thoseyears. And he went up to Brooklyn.
We know the Jackie Robinsonstory didn't last very long in Brooklyn
goes to Pittsburgh and he'sbounced around a bit. But wherever
(11:00):
he went, whoever he touched,whether it was the Cardinals, whether
it was the Brooklyn Dodgersand Jackie Robinson, he is the man
who developed Roberto Clementeand brought him really those teams
to Pittsburgh.
Wow. Didn't know that. This,as you're talking about this, I'm
thinking do you know whichposition has pushed forward the most?
(11:23):
Managers like catchers seem tobecause they're kind of like the
general of the field and theyreally watch the game, they understand
the game. I'm not saying noneof the other players do. But are
catchers more prevalent inbeing a manager or shortstops or
does it really matter? Aswe've seen managers, my first answer.
Was going to be bench jockeys.
(11:45):
That's true.
And, and I say that eventhough catchers are a high product
because they understandthey're in every play of the game,
they are kind of like thequarterback out on the field looking,
watching. Yachty is a goodexample. They trust, they believe.
But if you look at a lot ofthe really good managers, the great
managers, bench jockeys areright because they sat there, you
know, think of all the benchjockeys on the Yankees that sat there
(12:08):
between innings of the wholegame from a Billy Martin and all
those players that watchedCasey Stengel and then went off in
their careers developing otherteams. The good players like a Babe
Ruth always wanted to manage.He couldn't control himself, much
less how's he going to controla team. Same way with Ty Cobb. So
(12:29):
these Rogers Hornsby to me isthe poster child. A terrible manager.
He was the greatest right handhitter ever. He came he onto the
Cardinals, developed upthrough Rickey's farm system. Takes
the Cardinals to their firstpennant in 1926, wins the world championship
by tagging out Babe Ruthstealing second base with two outs
(12:52):
in the bottom of the ninth.And he got fired immediately, right?
Or traded? Immediately, rightafter. Because he and the owner got
into it. I remember one timeHornsby tried to kick Sam Braden,
the owner, out of get out ofmy locker room. And Mr. Braden had
to remind Hornsby whose team,locker room and stadium it was. So
they traded him to the Giantsfor Frankie Frisch. Frisch comes
(13:13):
and would become a WorldSeries winning manager with the Cardinals.
But the Giants get rid of himafter a year. He goes to the Boston
Braves. They get rid of himafter a year, he goes to the Chicago
Cubs. And after a year and ahalf they get rid of him. They go
to the World Series. But theplayers refuse to give him a share
(13:33):
of the winnings becauseHornsby could not equate with players.
The good players have toughtimes because he doesn't understand
why they can't all hit.400. Hecan't understand why they can't hit
or execute this. So that isgoing to be something that's going
to be interesting to see howmen like Pujols and Molina, when
(13:55):
they come in to manage, whichis their aspirations right now. They
have proven down in theCaribbean leagues that they can lead.
And I think there is a littlebit of difference in the player today
than there was in those days.Like a Casey Stengel. He was a great
manager, but he was not a verygood player.
It's kind of like Tony La Russa.
LaRussa and Whitey Herzog.Whitey Herzog. They were all bench
(14:17):
jockeys. In the book we talkabout Earl Weaver and all the pennants
he won in Baltimore.
Baltimore.
But Earl Weaver never made itto the major leagues. And even Dick
Williams, who won multipleWorld Series titles and pennants,
he was a marginal player,probably the very good. But you look
at Yogi Berra, he haddifficulty managing the Yankees.
(14:40):
These were all the guys heplayed with and all that in 64 when
the Yankees came and playedthe Cardinals in the World Series.
There was no better person whocame from St. Louis than Yogi Berra.
He knew the game better thananyone, but yet it was difficult
for him to manage. He didbetter when he got the rebound with
the Mets in the early 70s and73. But it was always a tough thing
(15:04):
for him because he was justthe likable kind of guy, a buddy.
And you got to be strict,right? They're not producing. You
got to push, really. I still.Catchers are probably the foremost
and I think about all thecatchers throughout there that are
in the hall of Fame played forthese St. Louis teams going back
all the way to Peckinpah andall this. But it's still the bench
(15:25):
jockey is the best answer.
That's a really good answer.This is Arnold Stricker with Mark
Langston of St. Louis in Tune.We're talking to Ed Wheatley about
his new book. And ed, it'sfrom St. Louis to Cooperstown baseball
legends born and made in theGateway City. I've got. I'm just
going to throw some names outhere. I'm not trying to put you on
the spot here. Kid Nichols,Charles Nichols. Folks, a lot of
(15:47):
these folks you never heardof. Daz Dazzy Vance.
Kid. Kid Nick Nichols. He won30 games, seven times. What? Yeah,
he was a great pitcher inthose early years of baseball. Kind
of had some personality issuesthat would get him in trouble. But
I think I want to put thisinto perspective of the. This book.
There's 346 individuals inCooperstown, the Hall of Fame.
(16:11):
Okay.
345 men and one woman. Do youknow who the woman is?
She was instrumental in theNegro Leagues, correct?
Yes. Yes.
I don't remember her name.
She, she owned the part ownerof the New Jersey. Of the Newark
Eagles.
Okay.
Effa Manning. Okay, Manning.And so she, they put her in. And
(16:31):
there's 248, 245 men from themajor leagues who played. There's
28 men from the Negro Leagues,23 managers, 10 umpires and there
are 40 recognized for theircontributions to the game owners
and things like that. LikeF.M. manley was. But the thing that's
(16:53):
the most interesting is of allthe inductions that have taken place
in the first class was in1936. They had the first induction
in 1939 there in, inCooperstown. Since those, all those
inductions, not every yearthere's not an induction. I think
there's eight that years therewasn't. There was just one recently.
(17:15):
But over 50% of thoseinductions have contained one of
the men in the book. So over50% of the inductions has someone
with a roots to St. Louis and21% of the men inducted have roots
to St. Louis. That's one outof over one out of every five people
(17:39):
in the hall of Fame has a tieto St. Louis. And you think about
there's 30 cities playing balland one out of every five is in St.
Louis. Which goes back to whySt. Louis has this huge tradition
next to the Yankees of WorldSeries is because we had such great
players and that's what weneed to know about them and document
them.
(17:59):
Something before we even goton the air that I thought was fascinating
about the number of playerswho have ever played baseball, professional
baseball, in the majorleagues. And would you expound on
that for our listeners?Because they weren't privy to that
conversation before we started recording.
You know what I was talkingabout is everybody thinks they can
make their child a $40 millionbaseball player per year. And you
(18:22):
see all these young kidsplaying major league baseball has
combined with the Negroleagues now. But if you just start
at the major league baseballlevel, they just crossed the 20,000th
player to play in the majorleagues since the major leagues were
formed as the National Leaguein 1876. So there's just over 20,000
(18:42):
men who've crossed the whiteline. And 27% of them are less than
25 games played. That tellsyou how hard it is. That does not
fill the bottom bowl of Busch Stadium.
And we're just talking majorleague, not minor leagues.
We're just talking majorleague, not minor leagues. No, I
mean there's thousands. Theminor league, to put it in perspective
(19:03):
compared to today. Now we gotcolleges today, but like in the 50s,
the Brooklyn Dodgers had 26minor league clubs. The Yankees had
24. Even the lowly Browns had18. Wow, that is. So many men would
go and play a year or two.Could they make it or not? But unfortunately,
when I wrote some of thesebooks, I talked to a lot of these
(19:24):
men who didn't make it fromlittle leagues to major leagues.
They'd give me theirscrapbooks and whatever. The Yankees
would come in and flood St.Louis big time. And they would all
sign with the Yankees. Howmany years? Five. How many times
did they won five years in arow over a 25 year period, you're
going to go beat out MickeyMano and Phil Rizzuto and Whitey
(19:44):
Ford. So it was really hard.They always regret they should have
signed with a different teambecause they might have had a better
chance. It is in perspectivethe chances of making 6 million kids
a year play baseball. Andsince 1876, and we're coming up on
that 150th anniversary of 1876and just over 20,000 men have played
(20:09):
in the major leagues.
That was really surprising tome when you mentioned that. I would
have thought way more, waymore than that. No, and the fact
that, what is it, 27% onlyplayed less than 25 games.
Think about all the Septembercall ups that you never hear again.
All these guys who come up,play a few innings in September,
(20:31):
you never hear from them againand they're gone. And there's a good
case in point of one of thegentlemen in this book. He's in the
hall of Fame, but he onlyplayed one game in the major leagues.
And in that one game he camein, he played two innings, first
ball hit to him, error. Hegets one bat in the two innings.
(20:53):
Tate strikes out on threepitches. Yet I go back to the bench
jockey. He became a greatmanager and is inducted into the
hall of Fame as a longtimemanager of the Dodgers. Walter Olson.
Oh, but his one game in themajor leagues, one and only happened
here as a St. Louis Cardinal.
(21:15):
He was manager when DonDrysdale and Sandy Koufax.
He was manager back inBrooklyn too, right?
Yeah.
He went west with the BrooklynDodgers to Los Angeles and he was
over like all those greatteams of the Dodgers in those early
60s.
It's those little stories likethat that you have that make your
books stand out on thebookshelf of baseball.
(21:37):
And as going back to HarryCarey once more, when I do research,
all of a sudden my wife hearsme. Holy cow. Like we all remember
in 1974, April 1974, when wewatched Hank Aaron take that trophy
away of career all time homerun record from Babe Ruth. But did
you know who held it for overa quarter century before Babe Ruth
(21:59):
was the career in the book.It's in the book because he has roots
to St. Louis, 25 years he wasthe all time home run king in Major
league Baseball. And it'sthese nuggets. People say who's.
I said buy the book. But itis, we've got, we just. Jackie Robinson.
I mentioned him with a branchricket. The Latin Jackie Robinson.
(22:21):
Who was the Latin JackieRobinson. He came out of the Caribbean
Leagues, went to the Negroleagues, came up here, played five
decades in Major leagueBaseball. He actually played for
five decades. I'll give him.I'll throw him out just in the honor
of that. He's the Latin JackieRobinson, Minnie Minoso. And Minoso
(22:43):
was a great player with theCleveland Indians, the White Sox
was. He has multiple GoldenGloves at different positions. He
was part of that inauguralgolden glove class of 1957. But he
came to St. Louis in 62. Hewas going to be this veteran presence
following Stan Mujo, but hecrashed his head, broke a skull and
(23:05):
then wrist when he fell atSportsman's Park. And so his time
was short here in St. Louisbecause he was basically out the
season and they weren't sure abroken wrist is usually a couple
years to get your strengthback and all he was at more at the
tail end but he went back tocoaching in with the White Sox and
(23:26):
in the and in the 70s he BillVeeck activated him in September
and in the 80s he gotactivated in September as well. In
the 70s games he playedmultiple he did get some hits, but
in the 80s he never did. Buthe did play over five decades.
That's crazy. That's totally crazy.
But it's hey, that's baseball trivia.
(23:47):
That is baseball trivia andthose are the kinds of things we're
gonna take a little break andwe're going to get more of from Ed
Wheatley, who's our guest.This is Arnold Stricker with Mark
Langston of St. Louis in Tune.Don't go away.
(24:14):
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401335 and equal housinglender this is Arnold Stricker of
St. Louis in tune on behalf ofthe Dred Scott Heritage Foundation.
In 1857, the Dred Scottdecision was a major legal event
and catalyst that contributedto the Civil War. The decision declared
that Dred Scott could not befree because he was not a citizen.
The 14th Amendment, alsocalled the Dred Scott Amendment,
(25:18):
granted citizenship to allborn or naturalized here in our country
and was intended to overturnthe US Supreme Court decision on
July 9, 1868. The Dred ScottHeritage foundation is requesting
a commemorative stamp to beissued from the US Postal Service
to recognize and remember theheritage of this amendment by issuing
a stamp with the likeness ofthe man Dred Scott. But we need your
(25:39):
support and the support ofthousands of people who would like
to see this happen. To achievethis goal, we ask you to download,
sign and share the one pagepetition with others. To find the
petition, please go to dredScottLives.org and click on the Dred
Scott petition drive on theright side of the page. On behalf
of the Dred Scott Heritagefoundation, this has been Arnold
Stricker of St. Louis in Tune.
(26:16):
Welcome back to St. Louis inTune. This is Arnold Stricker with
Mark Langston. Mark is onassignment. We are talking to Ed
Wheatley about his new bookFrom St. Louis to Cooperstown Baseball
Legends Born and Made in TheGateway City. Ed's other books I
wanted to mention baseball inSt. Louis, from little leagues to
major leagues. St. LouisBrown's the story of a beloved team.
(26:38):
Incredible Cardinals. St.Louis Cardinals. Everything you need
to know. St. Louis sportsmemories, Forgotten Teams and moments
from America's best sportstown. Ed, how long did it take you
to put all the researchtogether for this? Because I can
imagine getting the basic statstuff that's available, the little
antidotes, you know, that yougo, the little stories that you have
(26:59):
here, which to me really makesthis come alive.
Yeah, it's interesting thatyou do say that when stats are easy
and they're there, you got todo a lot of validating, triangulation
to validate what is the rightstats, whether Baseball reference
or the hall of Fame, becausethere are instances where you think
(27:21):
you have it right. Heck, JesseBurkett is a good example. Who's
Jesse Burkett? He played forthe Cardinals and the Browns at the
turn of the century in 1905,won a couple batting titles, moved
over as a free agent rightafter the American Leagues was created
in 1901 and joined the Brownsbecause he could get more money.
But Jesse Burkett, his plaquesays he hit.400 three times. His
(27:44):
hall of Fame plaque when hewas inducted, I think it was in 1946.
But it got later. Theybaseball, they're always updating
things and they updated and hewent down to.396. He's got this plaque
up in Cooperstown says hehit.403 times, but he only hit.402
(28:05):
times. When you look at ittoday, because they restated two
games that he played in.
Do they go back and change theplaque? Do they leave the play?
They can't change the plaque.No. Really, I noted that it's there.
Those are interesting. Therewas, depending on where you look,
there was this infamousbatting title between Ty Cobb and
(28:26):
Napoleon Lajoie, the Indiansand the Cleveland. And people had
this disregard For Cobb,because he always kept winning in
his surly personality. Butfrom what I've really researched
and studied and talked topeople, Ty Cobb was not that mean
of a guy or bad. There was abook that came out and then the Tommy
(28:47):
Lee Jones movie really shadedhis character. And they had this.
Everybody wanted to have Cobbnot win again. And there was a time
here in St. Louis playing theBrowns. They put the infield on the
grass and Lazuay bunted abunch of times. And they were saying
he beat Cobb. And then theyrestated some games and it changed.
(29:08):
It's always happening. Somehowthey find something and they change
it. You would think in asociety and a world we live on, it
would be fact. Now, in theNegro Leagues, it's a lot harder
because the records weren't asexact or even sometimes didn't even
exist. It's hard, but it does.But it takes you. It takes you a
year and a half, two years toreally get it and get it like you
want it. And you look forthose special stories because in
(29:32):
all these books you look,how's mine going to be different?
My mind's going to be better?
How's it going to stand outfrom other books, right?
So that it's just not the sameold thing. Why would I want to read
that? Because I've read allthese others. The thing about this
is different. There's allthese people you've never heard of,
but they had time here in St.Louis and they are in the hall of
Fame. They helped make St.Louis baseball great. And Kid Nichols,
(29:55):
somebody rate his name andthey say, was that a western cowboy
show or something? In thesenames we had Dizzy and Dazzy. We
had the Dazzy, Desi Vance, wehad the Rabbit. Who was the rabbit?
There's these little storiesand you think about names of baseball.
Two prominent names for peopleof most generations. If you said
(30:17):
Charles Kamitzky, what's thefirst thing you think of?
Comiskey Field.
Comiskey Field in Chicago. Andhe owned the. He would eventually
own the White Sox. Own theWhite Sox. He played before and was
a decent player. And he spenttime here in St. Louis the same way.
If I say Griffith, ClarkGriffith, what do you think? Griffith
stadium in Washington, D.C. hewas a very good pitcher before. He
(30:40):
bought and owned for decadesthe Washington Senators. But he actually
had a. I guess I say he had abetter playing career than he did
an owner career. Because theSox, the Senators, excuse me, weren't
that good. But all thesethings, they have time. We talked
about the Home run king beforeBabe Ruth. And still today, he wasn't
really a home run hitter. Ithink he had 75 in his whole major
(31:04):
league career. But he holdsthe record for inside the park home
runs.
Wow.
And it was Jesse Burkett who Ispoke of a minute ago. He had 55.
That's a record for inside thepark home runs over a career.
That's crazy. Did you go toCooperstown in Kansas City to those
respective hall of Fames toget stories and get information?
And like I said, I've had theluxury of speaking multiple times
(31:26):
in Cooperstown. You talk abouthumbling. Oh, my God, why am I there?
How can this be? But, yeah,you get in their archives and look,
and down at Cardinals hall ofFame, Amy Barrett and them are just
great. And it's people willingto work with you. I call and living
players and talk to them andget their memories. And that's just
in itself an honor.
(31:47):
Yeah, that was my nextquestion. I know you've rubbed shoulders
with a lot of current playersand past players. How about family
members, maybe children,grandchildren who have those stories?
You were able to connect with them.
Yes. I go because I want toget. Make sure the slant's right.
I want to say it right. He'snot tied to the book as being one
of the St. Louis personalitiesin there, but I've been spending
(32:08):
a lot of time with Babe Ruth'sgrandson working on a little project
here. And actually he will becoming to our St. Louis Browns annual
luncheon on August 25th at theMissouri Athletic Club.
Do a little commercial aboutthat Browns luncheon.
Yeah, you're saving.
You're saving the memory ofthe St. Louis Browns for history
here.
The St. Louis Browns legacy.And that's important for two reasons.
(32:30):
One, the Baltimore Orioleshave nothing to do with it. You can't
find the 1944 pennant up therein Camden Yards. Flying George sisler.
And the 15 men in the hall ofFame that played for the Browns aren't
honored. They recognized in1954 when they started up there in
(32:50):
Baltimore, they said theBrowns, they died. They were buried
in St. Louis. Their legacy didnot come east. They chose not to
have that legacy be a part oftheir franchise. See, Baltimore got
kicked in the teeth as well in1903. They were in the original class
of the American League in1901, but 1903, just like the Browns
were not in the Original Classof 1901. They were the Milwaukee
(33:12):
brewers and they were moved toSt. Louis, the largest city in the
country, in 1902. In 1903, BanJohnson, the president of the American
League, moved the BaltimoreOrioles to New York, the largest
city in America. They becamethe Highlanders that season and then
they changed their name to theYankees a few years later. But they
(33:33):
had a great minor leagues.They were like the Yankees of the
minor leagues. And that's thetradition they choose. But what's
so good about. We still haveover 700 people actively participating
in our Browns fan club. Everyyear we have this annual luncheon.
We go over to the Grizzliesand have Brown's Night at the Grizzlies
(33:54):
had a bobblehead and abobblehead. And this year we're doing
Pete Gray. This is the 80thanniversary of Pete Gray playing
in 1945. For those viewers orlisteners, excuse me, don't recall
Pete Gray. He was the onearmed left fielder. He got. He deserved
a shot because he had been theMVP in the Southern Atlantic League,
the Sally League, the yearbefore. But the difference between
(34:15):
minor league baseball,especially wartime minor league baseball,
and major leagues isdifferent. That's why we have tens
of thousands of people everyyear playing minor league baseball
that we'll never hear about inthe majors. It's that hard. But Pete
Gray did get a shot. But thething that's so important, and this
kind of comes back to thisbook, here we are in St. Louis. Costas
(34:36):
calls it the best baseballtown in America. And I'm here to.
Yeah, you go to Atlanta andthe Braves. Honor the Braves in Boston
and Milwaukee, their legacy.You go to Oakland and I guess now
Sacramento. I haven't been tothat stadium yet. In Oakland, they
flew the pennants of ConnieMack's Athletics. In Philadelphia,
(34:57):
the Dodgers honor the Brooklynyears and the Brooklyn 55 World Series
and the Giants the same way,their New York heritage. You go to
Minnesota and people forgetthe Minnesota Twins were the Washington
Senators and they moved toMinnesota. And the major league backfilled
a different team and theyhonor their years, Walter Johnson
(35:18):
and all their pennants therein Washington. But there's nothing
about Baltimore. There is nosupport. So to keep this legacy going
is what we are all about. Andthe thing that is so interesting,
there is nothing like ourclub. Participatory. We get over
300 people to our luncheonsevery year. We get thousands over
(35:40):
at the Browns Night at theGrizzlies. There is no participatory
action of a club or anythingfor the New York Giants, Brooklyn
Dodgers, Boston Braves, or.Who was the other one?
The Senators.
The Senators. Yeah. We arethere. We're special and it's because
St. Louis is such a greatbaseball town.
(36:02):
Is the Baltimore managementownership the same as it was? Has
that passed down to in afamily or is that just a different
ownership? New ownership sayhey, yeah, the Browns.
We've actually made severaltrips up to Baltimore for events
and things and they just saidit's yours now. They did. Baltimore
(36:22):
was sold last year, but theythe new one we've reached out as
is not interested. There'seven talk of him selling it again
a year later, but noBaltimore. We've made inroads in
a way. I'm fine with it. We'vegot it. We're doing pretty good job.
It's led to people know usacross the country from the Emmy
(36:42):
winning Browns films we've hadout on pbs and our Browns book was
picked as the best bookpublished in baseball in 2017. It's
great to see at Cardinal gamesor just walking through some stores
in St. Louis, people wearing aBrowns hat or a Browns T shirt. Or
you go over to the GatewayGrizzlies game, which is August 14th,
(37:04):
and you will see thousands ofpeople all dressed in Brown's attire.
And it's just not St. Louispeople. There's people from all over
the country that come.
Oh, we get people from allover the country to come. We come
people from, let's say we'vehad people who regularly come from
up in New York to ourluncheons from Seattle, Washington,
(37:24):
California. So we try tocoordinate so that there's a Cardinal
game in in that same periodthat we're having the luncheon. So
people come for vacation time.And it's just so special that we
can keep this legacy alive.
That is special. You're goingto be doing the book launch.
Yes.
You got some events andappearances. I want to read these
Friday, May 2nd at ClarkFamily Library on South Lindbergh.
(37:47):
Then you've got May 3rd atMain Street Books in St. Charles,
Tuesday, May 13th at theMissouri History Museum and Sunday,
May 18th at the CrondeletteHistorical Society. I know there's
going to be many more.
There's dozens after that. Butanything, we always kick off my books
usually at the St. LouisCounty Library, which is the number
(38:08):
one author speaking series inthe country.
Really?
Yes. And they've got thatbrand new building there at Lindbergh
and Highway 40. Greatauditorium. So invite everybody,
come out and listen to a lotdeeper discussion on St. Louis baseball
greatness.
And the book is really hot offthe press folks. Like last Friday
from Reedy Press So you canget this at Ready press. Go to readypress.com
(38:31):
it's available there. Mainlast question I've got for you, Ed,
is and I always ask thisquestion and some people may say,
why do you ask that questionall the time? But to me, I'm always
inquisitive because I want toknow what you have discovered that
has been like, man, I didn'tknow that about this player or I
didn't know this aboutbaseball or this city or this stadium
(38:54):
in this book. The biggestsurprise that as you were doing your
research and you said holycow. And your wife was like, what'd
you find now, Ed, what wasthat big surprise for you? That big
wow?
I think the big, the biggestholy cow. And there were, there's
a lot in the in there wasreally Roger Connor, a player I really
(39:16):
never heard about. And he wasthe man who for 25, over 25 years,
I think it was 28, held thecareer home run record that Babe
Ruth finally adopted. And he'salso, he was so big and tall, he
became the image thateventually led to the New York Giants
be called being called theGiants. So there's another backstory
(39:39):
to that. But Roger Connor, Iremember watching the Hank Aaron
Countdown to 7:15 and it hadnever been brought up. Never ever.
No, he is not one that I, Ican't tell you how many times I've
been through the Cardinalshall of Fame. It just never jumped
(40:00):
out at me. There's all thelittle quirky stories like a you
always heard about Ernie Banksnever played in the World Series.
A gentleman by the name ofBobby Thomas Wallace. Bobby Wallace
played for the Cardinals andthen the Browns. There's 66 men who
played for the Browns andCardinals and six of them, there's
all 15 of the hall of Famersof the Browns are in the book. We
(40:24):
only have nine under thesection of Browns because the others
are covered as their time inthe Cardinals. And that's also kind
of like they always had theirbetter years with the Cardinals than
they were on their down yearswhen they got to the Browns because
they didn't want to leave St.Louis. But what would have happened
if it was the other wayaround? But so it is. There's, there
(40:44):
are the, it's hard to just sayone, but that is probably like, why
did I not know that?
Maybe because he was born in1857. I'm reading right now. He died
in 1931, but he played withthe Browns in 1897. He was National
League champion twice nationalleague batting leader, RBI leader
(41:07):
and 6, 3, 220. And back thenthat was huge. That was big.
And one thing to say there,right there, when he said he played
for the Browns there in the1890s, that's one of the biggest
kind of. The term Browns islike a cat with nine lives in St.
Louis baseball. Because therewas 1876. See, St. Louis has had
four major league teams. 1876and 77. They were the St. Louis Browns
(41:30):
Stockings. They got kicked outof the league for gambling and game
fixing issues which wasprevalent in those days. But they
got kicked out. The Americanassociation was created by a gentleman,
Chris Vonderij. Many of yourreaders will remember that he was
a big beer baron of those daysand heard about it. He was an immigrant
from Germany. Heard aboutbaseball. It's good. So I can sell
(41:52):
a lot of beer. And his tavernwas just up the street from Sportsman's
Park. Would go to the ballgame. And then the American association
was very popular because theyserved beer and played on Sundays
where the National League waspuritanical. And they played as the
Brown Stockings, taking homageto the name of that other team from
(42:13):
several years earlier. Andthen they were so good they won multiple
championships of the Americanassociation and actually are the
only American association teamto beat a National League team because
they had a tournament ofchampions prior to the World series.
And this St. Louis team beat ateam from Chicago that had won, which
(42:34):
will be the Cubs. Andestablishes that rivalry between
the cardinals and St. Louis.And then when the Cardinals when
his Brown Stockings actuallymoved into the National League. Because
if you couldn't beat them, youmight as well let them join. In 1892
they came in as the Browns. Sohe actually played on a team called
(42:57):
the Browns. But in 1898 theychanged their name to the Perfectos.
And then they would dome thelovely shade of Cardinal red. And
there ever be the Cardinals.You got to be very careful when you
throw out which franchiseyou're talking about. Because then
in 1901 the Milwaukee brewers,as we said a moment ago, moved it
(43:19):
to St. Louis and took the termBrown in homage to all those others
we know as people think CyYoung came here. He came here and
he played in 1898 and 99 heplayed for the Perfectos. And then
they changed their name to theCardinals and things. And he won
46 of his 511 games here inSt. Louis. People don't know that
(43:40):
Cy Young was a key part of St.Louis baseball history.
See folks, this is why youneed to get this book and Ed's other
books because. And this is whyhe's our resident baseball history
expert. He's got a wealth ofknowledge. This book's a great book.
It's called From St. Louis toCooperstown Baseball Legends Born
and Made in the Gateway City.It's available From Reedy Press,
(44:01):
reedypress.com Ed, great tosee you again.
Thanks for coming in. I'mhappy to be here because you get
me going, man. And there'snothing better than talking baseball.
That's right. That's right.And you know it. It's great talking
to Ed Wheatley. We enjoyhaving him in the studio each and
every time. Even when hedoesn't have a book out. It's great
to just pick his brain aboutwhat's going on with baseball, not
(44:22):
only here in St. Louis, butacross the United States. Our word
for the day is liaison. Itrefers to a person who helps organizations
or groups work together andprovide information to each other
or to a relationship thatallows such interactions. I would
say that Ed Wheatley is aliaison to baseball and the public
(44:46):
because he informs us aboutwhat's happening about players, about
the development of players,and about the history of baseball.
So just to close out the showwith a few funnies for you folks,
finally my winter fat is gone.Now I have spring rolls. Hmm. Just
help my neighbor bury a rolledup carpet in the woods. Her boyfriend
(45:09):
would have done it, but he'sout of town. So. A man loses three
fingers in a work accident andat the hospital he asks the doctor,
will I be able to drive withthis hand? The doctor replies, maybe,
but I wouldn't count on it.And finally, the main function of
(45:33):
the little toe on your foot isto make sure that all the furniture
in the house is in place.That's all for this hour. Thanks
for listening. If you'veenjoyed this episode, you can listen
to additionalshows@stlandune.com consider leaving
a review on our website, ApplePodcasts, Podchaser, or your preferred
(45:55):
podcast platform. Yourfeedback helps us reach more listeners
and continue to grow. I wantto thank Bob Berthisel for our theme
music, our guest, Ed Wheatley,co host, Mark Langston, who's on
assignment, and we thank youfor being a part of our community
of curious minds. Thank Louis.In Tune is a production of Motif
Media Group and the US RadioNetwork. Remember to keep seeking,
keep learning, walk worthy,and let your light shine. For St.
(46:17):
Louis in tune, I'm Arnold Stricker.
The images of St. Louisbaseball legends are painted on Busch
Stadium's left field wallhonoring their retired uniform numbers
and their inductions into theNational Baseball hall of Fame in
Cooperstown, New York. Nameslike Hornsby, Dean, Musial, Schoendienst,
Gibson and Brock. But themural only highlights 13 of the 55
players inducted into the hallof Fame who played for the National
(00:21):
League St. Louis Cardinals?Who are these other players and what
are their stories? And whatabout the nine men from the American
League St. Louis Browns whoseplaques also hang in Cooperstown?
Who are they and what aretheir stories? Stories and five of
the 37 members of the NegroLeagues have been inducted into the
hall of Fame. They have tiesto the St. Louis Giants and the St.
Louis Stars. Who were they andwhat made each of them stand out
(00:43):
over the thousands of AfricanAmericans playing in the league?
We're going to find out moretoday on St. Louis in Tune. Welcome
(01:04):
to St. Louis in Tune and thankyou for joining us for fresh perspectives
on issues and events withexperts, community leaders and everyday
people who make a differencein shaping our society and world.
I'm Arnold Stricker along withco host Mark Langston who is on assignment
and we are glad that you'vejoined us today. We want to thank
our sponsor Better RateMortgage for their support of the
show. You can listen toprevious shows by the way@stlintune.com
(01:27):
Please help us continue togrow by leaving a review on our website,
st.lintune.com, apple Podcastsor your preferred podcast platform.
Our return to civility todayis hold the door open and let a bunch
of people go in front of you.Especially if you're afraid of what
is waiting for you inside.I've never been scared about going
into a place. I've held thedoor open for people not because
(01:51):
it was raining but because itwas polite thing to do and even if
they got ahead of you in line,that's okay, everybody's gonna get
through. Let's try to be civilfolks. Let's bring back some civility
to our world because thingsare still a little crazy. Our guest
today, he's what I would callSt. Louis in tunes, baseball historian,
(02:13):
author. He's our in house kindof guy because he's been here a lot.
He is the author of a new bookFrom St. Louis to Baseball Legends
Born and Made in the GatewayCity and I want to give Ed a little
introduction here because someof you may not be acquainted with
him. Ed Wheatley is an awardwinning and best selling author and
film Producer deeply involvedin St. Louis sports, he serves on
(02:35):
multiple Sports hall of Fameboards of directors across the St.
Louis region. His manypublished books, matter of fact,
he's the author of six books Ibelieve have received national recognition,
including Sports Digestselection as the best book published
on baseball and a nominationfor the Society for American Baseball
Research Lawrence RitterAward. His multiple films shown on
(02:56):
the PBS network have allreceived regional Mid America Emmy
Award nominations, including aWin. His films have appeared in the
acclaimed National Baseballhall of Fame's annual film festival
and have provided him multipleopportunities to speak at baseball's
venerable institution inCooperstown. Ed welcome back to St.
Louis in Tune.
It's great to be here today.It's always good to talk about baseball's
(03:19):
best town in America. And thepurpose of this book was if we really
are the best town in Americafor baseball, we need to know the
baseball history and we needto know who all these men, as you
spoke about, the 55 men in theCardinals franchise that are in the
hall of fame, the 15 men thatare in the Browns, members of the
hall of Fame that played ayear or two or career here in St.
(03:43):
Louis. But and we have theNegro Leagues not to forget. And
it's also one of the thingsthat makes St. Louis such a good
baseball town is our coverage,whether it's on the radio or in the
newspaper. And I even get intowho were those men that are in those
areas of the hall of Fame.
Yeah. Because looking at thebook here, the book's kind of divided.
(04:05):
The book is divided intoplayers of the St. Louis Cardinals,
players of the St. LouisBrowns, players of the Negro Leagues,
players from St. Louis whoplayed elsewhere, the Ford Frick
Award winning broadcasters andthe Baseball Writers association
of America and winners, sports writers.
(04:25):
Correct.
And I'm really glad that youincluded the latter two. And I want
to talk about that a littlebit because most people think about
it's just about the players.But as you were mentioning radio
and TV and the writers, whatwe read is just as important to have
the fan base go.
It's not only important tohave the fan base going, but it's
the way these men taught usthe game. And we took that love of
(04:48):
the game into our whole livesand it has become generation to generation
handed down. You think abouthow Harry Carey in these days when
baseball wasn't on television,no, Harry came along and really told
the Cardinals they had lousyannouncers in a carry way. But you
know what he really did. Andyou think about this now, he said
(05:11):
the guy Sitting on his patioor on his front porch, needs to see
the game like he's sitting inthe stands and think about his cadence
of the pitcher looks in, toesthe rubber, gets the sign, here's
the wind up, the stretch, thepitch. You saw that in your mind.
The ball game in those dayswhere there was no television. And
(05:31):
not only that, St. Louis beingthe farthest west, the most Southern.
We had this people loving usfrom coast to coast. St. Louis is
what listened everybody to thewest and south, but even back East,
Bob Costas talks about goingand sitting in his dad's car back
east in New York listening toCardinal games.
Interesting.
(05:51):
And so that is what reallybuilt the love of this France, these
franchises. I can't just saythe franchise, because we're really
speaking of three franchisesin this story.
And this isn't a book just forSt. Louis fans. This is a book for
baseball fans. And as you weregetting into that, you go into some
biographies with some basicpersonal and professional stats.
(06:13):
And I really like the nicknamekind of thing.
Yeah.
But let's start with some ofthese well known players that we
know, the ones that are on thewall, left field. And then let's
move to some of the. Maybe notso well known.
Yeah, yeah. We all know themore recent ones like Ozzy and Gibson
and Brock. And I go in andspeak in a lot of schools and you
just got to kind of holy cow,paraphrasing Harry Carey again. But
(06:38):
you'll talk. And kids don'tknow who Stan Musial is here in one
of the greatest ballplayers,Stan Musil. And we don't know about
him in the schools. Theseyoung kids, it's not being passed
down from the parents like wereceived it. They're not seeing baseball
the way we saw it in thenewspapers. It's being minimized.
(07:00):
So it's important that we notonly learn about those who have touched
our lives, but go back to theearly days of baseball. George Sisler,
one of the greatest men everto play the game. Ty Cobb called
him the perfect player. Threeyears in a row. His average was.400.
And so who was Sisler? He wasin that famous picture there in Cooperstown
(07:24):
at the first induction in 1939when they had him outside. But he
played for the Browns. Butbecause Baltimore has nothing to
do with the Browns, there'snothing heralding him. And that's
what we try to do in my booksand also with the Browns fan club.
But we should know all thesepeople because there are the heroes.
We had and these are the menwho made us watch the game. They
(07:47):
won pennants. Only the Yankeeshave more world championships than
the Cardinals. So it'ssomething that it is in St. Louis.
I always, when I wrote thebook Baseball in St. Louis, Little
Leagues to Major Leagues, allI could think about was Susan Sarandon
walking to the ballpark in theopening scenes from Bull Durham movie.
(08:08):
The church bells are ringing.And you know, it's a Sunday, people
walking to the church andshe's walking past them and said,
I've tried all the religions,I truly have, but it. But baseball
meets my soul day in and dayout. Baseball is the religion of
St. Louis. Opening Day is ournational holiday. So let's keep that
up. But let's remember how wegot there. And it's through these
(08:31):
men and they played in allthese franchises. But it's these
men that you spoke of withthose numbers, they're the heroes
of St. Louis baseball.
They really are. You have. I'mjust going to open the book to a
random page. I know Dick Allenbecause he was playing when I was
in school. Jim Bottomley,Sonny Jim. Now, most people wouldn't
(08:53):
know him. I've heard of him,but that's about it.
He was a premier firstbaseman. Those 20s teams going into
the 30s, he was very tophitter. He lost out a couple MVPs
because he had a guy namedRogers Hornsby to his right. But
he was a key cog in thosegreat pennants. He was one of the
(09:14):
people that we got to rememberthat when Branch Rickey left the
Browns and went over to theCardinals and created the first minor
league farm system for a majorleague team. Because, see, in those
days, what we would call theequivalent, they were just independent
teams. They had no allegianceto the major league team. People
would go from them to themajor leagues as free agents, okay.
(09:36):
And he said, no, I'm going tosign them all to contracts when they're
playing down there, and I willdevelop them. I have an eye of talent.
That's how he. The Brownswould not let him build that minor
league system. The Cardinals,Sam Braden had just bought the team,
said, make me a winner. Hedoes. World pennants in 26, 28, 30,
(09:57):
31, 34, 42, 43, 44 and 46. Andit's because these men, we have all
those pennants that I justrattled off. And Bottomley was one
of the key players for those teams.
And I didn't know BranchRickey was a ballplayer himself.
Oh, yes, he was. He was theworst catcher in major league history,
(10:19):
he holds the records for moststeals against a catcher at 12 in
a game. The Washington Postheadline, which I have a copy of
the headline said to stealagainst Ricky, start running. But
he was not a very good player.But he was a great. He had the could
perceive talent and develop itand he knew how to instruct it. But
(10:39):
he's also, I don't want to sayegomaniac, but he, he really believed
he, he was the top of thepyramid. That's why he did well with
the Cardinals and then had toleave because he didn't get along
with the owner after all thoseyears. And he went up to Brooklyn.
We know the Jackie Robinsonstory didn't last very long in Brooklyn
goes to Pittsburgh and he'sbounced around a bit. But wherever
(11:00):
he went, whoever he touched,whether it was the Cardinals, whether
it was the Brooklyn Dodgersand Jackie Robinson, he is the man
who developed Roberto Clementeand brought him really those teams
to Pittsburgh.
Wow. Didn't know that. This,as you're talking about this, I'm
thinking do you know whichposition has pushed forward the most?
(11:23):
Managers like catchers seem tobecause they're kind of like the
general of the field and theyreally watch the game, they understand
the game. I'm not saying noneof the other players do. But are
catchers more prevalent inbeing a manager or shortstops or
does it really matter? Aswe've seen managers, my first answer.
Was going to be bench jockeys.
(11:45):
That's true.
And, and I say that eventhough catchers are a high product
because they understandthey're in every play of the game,
they are kind of like thequarterback out on the field looking,
watching. Yachty is a goodexample. They trust, they believe.
But if you look at a lot ofthe really good managers, the great
managers, bench jockeys areright because they sat there, you
know, think of all the benchjockeys on the Yankees that sat there
(12:08):
between innings of the wholegame from a Billy Martin and all
those players that watchedCasey Stengel and then went off in
their careers developing otherteams. The good players like a Babe
Ruth always wanted to manage.He couldn't control himself, much
less how's he going to controla team. Same way with Ty Cobb. So
(12:29):
these Rogers Hornsby to me isthe poster child. A terrible manager.
He was the greatest right handhitter ever. He came he onto the
Cardinals, developed upthrough Rickey's farm system. Takes
the Cardinals to their firstpennant in 1926, wins the world championship
by tagging out Babe Ruthstealing second base with two outs
(12:52):
in the bottom of the ninth.And he got fired immediately, right?
Or traded? Immediately, rightafter. Because he and the owner got
into it. I remember one timeHornsby tried to kick Sam Braden,
the owner, out of get out ofmy locker room. And Mr. Braden had
to remind Hornsby whose team,locker room and stadium it was. So
they traded him to the Giantsfor Frankie Frisch. Frisch comes
(13:13):
and would become a WorldSeries winning manager with the Cardinals.
But the Giants get rid of himafter a year. He goes to the Boston
Braves. They get rid of himafter a year, he goes to the Chicago
Cubs. And after a year and ahalf they get rid of him. They go
to the World Series. But theplayers refuse to give him a share
(13:33):
of the winnings becauseHornsby could not equate with players.
The good players have toughtimes because he doesn't understand
why they can't all hit.400. Hecan't understand why they can't hit
or execute this. So that isgoing to be something that's going
to be interesting to see howmen like Pujols and Molina, when
(13:55):
they come in to manage, whichis their aspirations right now. They
have proven down in theCaribbean leagues that they can lead.
And I think there is a littlebit of difference in the player today
than there was in those days.Like a Casey Stengel. He was a great
manager, but he was not a verygood player.
It's kind of like Tony La Russa.
LaRussa and Whitey Herzog.Whitey Herzog. They were all bench
(14:17):
jockeys. In the book we talkabout Earl Weaver and all the pennants
he won in Baltimore.
Baltimore.
But Earl Weaver never made itto the major leagues. And even Dick
Williams, who won multipleWorld Series titles and pennants,
he was a marginal player,probably the very good. But you look
at Yogi Berra, he haddifficulty managing the Yankees.
(14:40):
These were all the guys heplayed with and all that in 64 when
the Yankees came and playedthe Cardinals in the World Series.
There was no better person whocame from St. Louis than Yogi Berra.
He knew the game better thananyone, but yet it was difficult
for him to manage. He didbetter when he got the rebound with
the Mets in the early 70s and73. But it was always a tough thing
(15:04):
for him because he was justthe likable kind of guy, a buddy.
And you got to be strict,right? They're not producing. You
got to push, really. I still.Catchers are probably the foremost
and I think about all thecatchers throughout there that are
in the hall of Fame played forthese St. Louis teams going back
all the way to Peckinpah andall this. But it's still the bench
(15:25):
jockey is the best answer.
That's a really good answer.This is Arnold Stricker with Mark
Langston of St. Louis in Tune.We're talking to Ed Wheatley about
his new book. And ed, it'sfrom St. Louis to Cooperstown baseball
legends born and made in theGateway City. I've got. I'm just
going to throw some names outhere. I'm not trying to put you on
the spot here. Kid Nichols,Charles Nichols. Folks, a lot of
(15:47):
these folks you never heardof. Daz Dazzy Vance.
Kid. Kid Nick Nichols. He won30 games, seven times. What? Yeah,
he was a great pitcher inthose early years of baseball. Kind
of had some personality issuesthat would get him in trouble. But
I think I want to put thisinto perspective of the. This book.
There's 346 individuals inCooperstown, the Hall of Fame.
(16:11):
Okay.
345 men and one woman. Do youknow who the woman is?
She was instrumental in theNegro Leagues, correct?
Yes. Yes.
I don't remember her name.
She, she owned the part ownerof the New Jersey. Of the Newark
Eagles.
Okay.
Effa Manning. Okay, Manning.And so she, they put her in. And
(16:31):
there's 248, 245 men from themajor leagues who played. There's
28 men from the Negro Leagues,23 managers, 10 umpires and there
are 40 recognized for theircontributions to the game owners
and things like that. LikeF.M. manley was. But the thing that's
(16:53):
the most interesting is of allthe inductions that have taken place
in the first class was in1936. They had the first induction
in 1939 there in, inCooperstown. Since those, all those
inductions, not every yearthere's not an induction. I think
there's eight that years therewasn't. There was just one recently.
(17:15):
But over 50% of thoseinductions have contained one of
the men in the book. So over50% of the inductions has someone
with a roots to St. Louis and21% of the men inducted have roots
to St. Louis. That's one outof over one out of every five people
(17:39):
in the hall of Fame has a tieto St. Louis. And you think about
there's 30 cities playing balland one out of every five is in St.
Louis. Which goes back to whySt. Louis has this huge tradition
next to the Yankees of WorldSeries is because we had such great
players and that's what weneed to know about them and document
them.
(17:59):
Something before we even goton the air that I thought was fascinating
about the number of playerswho have ever played baseball, professional
baseball, in the majorleagues. And would you expound on
that for our listeners?Because they weren't privy to that
conversation before we started recording.
You know what I was talkingabout is everybody thinks they can
make their child a $40 millionbaseball player per year. And you
(18:22):
see all these young kidsplaying major league baseball has
combined with the Negroleagues now. But if you just start
at the major league baseballlevel, they just crossed the 20,000th
player to play in the majorleagues since the major leagues were
formed as the National Leaguein 1876. So there's just over 20,000
(18:42):
men who've crossed the whiteline. And 27% of them are less than
25 games played. That tellsyou how hard it is. That does not
fill the bottom bowl of Busch Stadium.
And we're just talking majorleague, not minor leagues.
We're just talking majorleague, not minor leagues. No, I
mean there's thousands. Theminor league, to put it in perspective
(19:03):
compared to today. Now we gotcolleges today, but like in the 50s,
the Brooklyn Dodgers had 26minor league clubs. The Yankees had
24. Even the lowly Browns had18. Wow, that is. So many men would
go and play a year or two.Could they make it or not? But unfortunately,
when I wrote some of thesebooks, I talked to a lot of these
(19:24):
men who didn't make it fromlittle leagues to major leagues.
They'd give me theirscrapbooks and whatever. The Yankees
would come in and flood St.Louis big time. And they would all
sign with the Yankees. Howmany years? Five. How many times
did they won five years in arow over a 25 year period, you're
going to go beat out MickeyMano and Phil Rizzuto and Whitey
(19:44):
Ford. So it was really hard.They always regret they should have
signed with a different teambecause they might have had a better
chance. It is in perspectivethe chances of making 6 million kids
a year play baseball. Andsince 1876, and we're coming up on
that 150th anniversary of 1876and just over 20,000 men have played
(20:09):
in the major leagues.
That was really surprising tome when you mentioned that. I would
have thought way more, waymore than that. No, and the fact
that, what is it, 27% onlyplayed less than 25 games.
Think about all the Septembercall ups that you never hear again.
All these guys who come up,play a few innings in September,
(20:31):
you never hear from them againand they're gone. And there's a good
case in point of one of thegentlemen in this book. He's in the
hall of Fame, but he onlyplayed one game in the major leagues.
And in that one game he camein, he played two innings, first
ball hit to him, error. Hegets one bat in the two innings.
(20:53):
Tate strikes out on threepitches. Yet I go back to the bench
jockey. He became a greatmanager and is inducted into the
hall of Fame as a longtimemanager of the Dodgers. Walter Olson.
Oh, but his one game in themajor leagues, one and only happened
here as a St. Louis Cardinal.
(21:15):
He was manager when DonDrysdale and Sandy Koufax.
He was manager back inBrooklyn too, right?
Yeah.
He went west with the BrooklynDodgers to Los Angeles and he was
over like all those greatteams of the Dodgers in those early
60s.
It's those little stories likethat that you have that make your
books stand out on thebookshelf of baseball.
(21:37):
And as going back to HarryCarey once more, when I do research,
all of a sudden my wife hearsme. Holy cow. Like we all remember
in 1974, April 1974, when wewatched Hank Aaron take that trophy
away of career all time homerun record from Babe Ruth. But did
you know who held it for overa quarter century before Babe Ruth
(21:59):
was the career in the book.It's in the book because he has roots
to St. Louis, 25 years he wasthe all time home run king in Major
league Baseball. And it'sthese nuggets. People say who's.
I said buy the book. But itis, we've got, we just. Jackie Robinson.
I mentioned him with a branchricket. The Latin Jackie Robinson.
(22:21):
Who was the Latin JackieRobinson. He came out of the Caribbean
Leagues, went to the Negroleagues, came up here, played five
decades in Major leagueBaseball. He actually played for
five decades. I'll give him.I'll throw him out just in the honor
of that. He's the Latin JackieRobinson, Minnie Minoso. And Minoso
(22:43):
was a great player with theCleveland Indians, the White Sox
was. He has multiple GoldenGloves at different positions. He
was part of that inauguralgolden glove class of 1957. But he
came to St. Louis in 62. Hewas going to be this veteran presence
following Stan Mujo, but hecrashed his head, broke a skull and
(23:05):
then wrist when he fell atSportsman's Park. And so his time
was short here in St. Louisbecause he was basically out the
season and they weren't sure abroken wrist is usually a couple
years to get your strengthback and all he was at more at the
tail end but he went back tocoaching in with the White Sox and
(23:26):
in the and in the 70s he BillVeeck activated him in September
and in the 80s he gotactivated in September as well. In
the 70s games he playedmultiple he did get some hits, but
in the 80s he never did. Buthe did play over five decades.
That's crazy. That's totally crazy.
But it's hey, that's baseball trivia.
(23:47):
That is baseball trivia andthose are the kinds of things we're
gonna take a little break andwe're going to get more of from Ed
Wheatley, who's our guest.This is Arnold Stricker with Mark
Langston of St. Louis in Tune.Don't go away.
(24:14):
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401335 and equal housinglender this is Arnold Stricker of
St. Louis in tune on behalf ofthe Dred Scott Heritage Foundation.
In 1857, the Dred Scottdecision was a major legal event
and catalyst that contributedto the Civil War. The decision declared
that Dred Scott could not befree because he was not a citizen.
The 14th Amendment, alsocalled the Dred Scott Amendment,
(25:18):
granted citizenship to allborn or naturalized here in our country
and was intended to overturnthe US Supreme Court decision on
July 9, 1868. The Dred ScottHeritage foundation is requesting
a commemorative stamp to beissued from the US Postal Service
to recognize and remember theheritage of this amendment by issuing
a stamp with the likeness ofthe man Dred Scott. But we need your
(25:39):
support and the support ofthousands of people who would like
to see this happen. To achievethis goal, we ask you to download,
sign and share the one pagepetition with others. To find the
petition, please go to dredScottLives.org and click on the Dred
Scott petition drive on theright side of the page. On behalf
of the Dred Scott Heritagefoundation, this has been Arnold
Stricker of St. Louis in Tune.
(26:16):
Welcome back to St. Louis inTune. This is Arnold Stricker with
Mark Langston. Mark is onassignment. We are talking to Ed
Wheatley about his new bookFrom St. Louis to Cooperstown Baseball
Legends Born and Made in TheGateway City. Ed's other books I
wanted to mention baseball inSt. Louis, from little leagues to
major leagues. St. LouisBrown's the story of a beloved team.
(26:38):
Incredible Cardinals. St.Louis Cardinals. Everything you need
to know. St. Louis sportsmemories, Forgotten Teams and moments
from America's best sportstown. Ed, how long did it take you
to put all the researchtogether for this? Because I can
imagine getting the basic statstuff that's available, the little
antidotes, you know, that yougo, the little stories that you have
(26:59):
here, which to me really makesthis come alive.
Yeah, it's interesting thatyou do say that when stats are easy
and they're there, you got todo a lot of validating, triangulation
to validate what is the rightstats, whether Baseball reference
or the hall of Fame, becausethere are instances where you think
(27:21):
you have it right. Heck, JesseBurkett is a good example. Who's
Jesse Burkett? He played forthe Cardinals and the Browns at the
turn of the century in 1905,won a couple batting titles, moved
over as a free agent rightafter the American Leagues was created
in 1901 and joined the Brownsbecause he could get more money.
But Jesse Burkett, his plaquesays he hit.400 three times. His
(27:44):
hall of Fame plaque when hewas inducted, I think it was in 1946.
But it got later. Theybaseball, they're always updating
things and they updated and hewent down to.396. He's got this plaque
up in Cooperstown says hehit.403 times, but he only hit.402
(28:05):
times. When you look at ittoday, because they restated two
games that he played in.
Do they go back and change theplaque? Do they leave the play?
They can't change the plaque.No. Really, I noted that it's there.
Those are interesting. Therewas, depending on where you look,
there was this infamousbatting title between Ty Cobb and
(28:26):
Napoleon Lajoie, the Indiansand the Cleveland. And people had
this disregard For Cobb,because he always kept winning in
his surly personality. Butfrom what I've really researched
and studied and talked topeople, Ty Cobb was not that mean
of a guy or bad. There was abook that came out and then the Tommy
(28:47):
Lee Jones movie really shadedhis character. And they had this.
Everybody wanted to have Cobbnot win again. And there was a time
here in St. Louis playing theBrowns. They put the infield on the
grass and Lazuay bunted abunch of times. And they were saying
he beat Cobb. And then theyrestated some games and it changed.
(29:08):
It's always happening. Somehowthey find something and they change
it. You would think in asociety and a world we live on, it
would be fact. Now, in theNegro Leagues, it's a lot harder
because the records weren't asexact or even sometimes didn't even
exist. It's hard, but it does.But it takes you. It takes you a
year and a half, two years toreally get it and get it like you
want it. And you look forthose special stories because in
(29:32):
all these books you look,how's mine going to be different?
My mind's going to be better?
How's it going to stand outfrom other books, right?
So that it's just not the sameold thing. Why would I want to read
that? Because I've read allthese others. The thing about this
is different. There's allthese people you've never heard of,
but they had time here in St.Louis and they are in the hall of
Fame. They helped make St.Louis baseball great. And Kid Nichols,
(29:55):
somebody rate his name andthey say, was that a western cowboy
show or something? In thesenames we had Dizzy and Dazzy. We
had the Dazzy, Desi Vance, wehad the Rabbit. Who was the rabbit?
There's these little storiesand you think about names of baseball.
Two prominent names for peopleof most generations. If you said
(30:17):
Charles Kamitzky, what's thefirst thing you think of?
Comiskey Field.
Comiskey Field in Chicago. Andhe owned the. He would eventually
own the White Sox. Own theWhite Sox. He played before and was
a decent player. And he spenttime here in St. Louis the same way.
If I say Griffith, ClarkGriffith, what do you think? Griffith
stadium in Washington, D.C. hewas a very good pitcher before. He
(30:40):
bought and owned for decadesthe Washington Senators. But he actually
had a. I guess I say he had abetter playing career than he did
an owner career. Because theSox, the Senators, excuse me, weren't
that good. But all thesethings, they have time. We talked
about the Home run king beforeBabe Ruth. And still today, he wasn't
really a home run hitter. Ithink he had 75 in his whole major
(31:04):
league career. But he holdsthe record for inside the park home
runs.
Wow.
And it was Jesse Burkett who Ispoke of a minute ago. He had 55.
That's a record for inside thepark home runs over a career.
That's crazy. Did you go toCooperstown in Kansas City to those
respective hall of Fames toget stories and get information?
And like I said, I've had theluxury of speaking multiple times
(31:26):
in Cooperstown. You talk abouthumbling. Oh, my God, why am I there?
How can this be? But, yeah,you get in their archives and look,
and down at Cardinals hall ofFame, Amy Barrett and them are just
great. And it's people willingto work with you. I call and living
players and talk to them andget their memories. And that's just
in itself an honor.
(31:47):
Yeah, that was my nextquestion. I know you've rubbed shoulders
with a lot of current playersand past players. How about family
members, maybe children,grandchildren who have those stories?
You were able to connect with them.
Yes. I go because I want toget. Make sure the slant's right.
I want to say it right. He'snot tied to the book as being one
of the St. Louis personalitiesin there, but I've been spending
(32:08):
a lot of time with Babe Ruth'sgrandson working on a little project
here. And actually he will becoming to our St. Louis Browns annual
luncheon on August 25th at theMissouri Athletic Club.
Do a little commercial aboutthat Browns luncheon.
Yeah, you're saving.
You're saving the memory ofthe St. Louis Browns for history
here.
The St. Louis Browns legacy.And that's important for two reasons.
(32:30):
One, the Baltimore Orioleshave nothing to do with it. You can't
find the 1944 pennant up therein Camden Yards. Flying George sisler.
And the 15 men in the hall ofFame that played for the Browns aren't
honored. They recognized in1954 when they started up there in
(32:50):
Baltimore, they said theBrowns, they died. They were buried
in St. Louis. Their legacy didnot come east. They chose not to
have that legacy be a part oftheir franchise. See, Baltimore got
kicked in the teeth as well in1903. They were in the original class
of the American League in1901, but 1903, just like the Browns
were not in the Original Classof 1901. They were the Milwaukee
(33:12):
brewers and they were moved toSt. Louis, the largest city in the
country, in 1902. In 1903, BanJohnson, the president of the American
League, moved the BaltimoreOrioles to New York, the largest
city in America. They becamethe Highlanders that season and then
they changed their name to theYankees a few years later. But they
(33:33):
had a great minor leagues.They were like the Yankees of the
minor leagues. And that's thetradition they choose. But what's
so good about. We still haveover 700 people actively participating
in our Browns fan club. Everyyear we have this annual luncheon.
We go over to the Grizzliesand have Brown's Night at the Grizzlies
(33:54):
had a bobblehead and abobblehead. And this year we're doing
Pete Gray. This is the 80thanniversary of Pete Gray playing
in 1945. For those viewers orlisteners, excuse me, don't recall
Pete Gray. He was the onearmed left fielder. He got. He deserved
a shot because he had been theMVP in the Southern Atlantic League,
the Sally League, the yearbefore. But the difference between
(34:15):
minor league baseball,especially wartime minor league baseball,
and major leagues isdifferent. That's why we have tens
of thousands of people everyyear playing minor league baseball
that we'll never hear about inthe majors. It's that hard. But Pete
Gray did get a shot. But thething that's so important, and this
kind of comes back to thisbook, here we are in St. Louis. Costas
(34:36):
calls it the best baseballtown in America. And I'm here to.
Yeah, you go to Atlanta andthe Braves. Honor the Braves in Boston
and Milwaukee, their legacy.You go to Oakland and I guess now
Sacramento. I haven't been tothat stadium yet. In Oakland, they
flew the pennants of ConnieMack's Athletics. In Philadelphia,
(34:57):
the Dodgers honor the Brooklynyears and the Brooklyn 55 World Series
and the Giants the same way,their New York heritage. You go to
Minnesota and people forgetthe Minnesota Twins were the Washington
Senators and they moved toMinnesota. And the major league backfilled
a different team and theyhonor their years, Walter Johnson
(35:18):
and all their pennants therein Washington. But there's nothing
about Baltimore. There is nosupport. So to keep this legacy going
is what we are all about. Andthe thing that is so interesting,
there is nothing like ourclub. Participatory. We get over
300 people to our luncheonsevery year. We get thousands over
(35:40):
at the Browns Night at theGrizzlies. There is no participatory
action of a club or anythingfor the New York Giants, Brooklyn
Dodgers, Boston Braves, or.Who was the other one?
The Senators.
The Senators. Yeah. We arethere. We're special and it's because
St. Louis is such a greatbaseball town.
(36:02):
Is the Baltimore managementownership the same as it was? Has
that passed down to in afamily or is that just a different
ownership? New ownership sayhey, yeah, the Browns.
We've actually made severaltrips up to Baltimore for events
and things and they just saidit's yours now. They did. Baltimore
(36:22):
was sold last year, but theythe new one we've reached out as
is not interested. There'seven talk of him selling it again
a year later, but noBaltimore. We've made inroads in
a way. I'm fine with it. We'vegot it. We're doing pretty good job.
It's led to people know usacross the country from the Emmy
(36:42):
winning Browns films we've hadout on pbs and our Browns book was
picked as the best bookpublished in baseball in 2017. It's
great to see at Cardinal gamesor just walking through some stores
in St. Louis, people wearing aBrowns hat or a Browns T shirt. Or
you go over to the GatewayGrizzlies game, which is August 14th,
(37:04):
and you will see thousands ofpeople all dressed in Brown's attire.
And it's just not St. Louispeople. There's people from all over
the country that come.
Oh, we get people from allover the country to come. We come
people from, let's say we'vehad people who regularly come from
up in New York to ourluncheons from Seattle, Washington,
(37:24):
California. So we try tocoordinate so that there's a Cardinal
game in in that same periodthat we're having the luncheon. So
people come for vacation time.And it's just so special that we
can keep this legacy alive.
That is special. You're goingto be doing the book launch.
Yes.
You got some events andappearances. I want to read these
Friday, May 2nd at ClarkFamily Library on South Lindbergh.
(37:47):
Then you've got May 3rd atMain Street Books in St. Charles,
Tuesday, May 13th at theMissouri History Museum and Sunday,
May 18th at the CrondeletteHistorical Society. I know there's
going to be many more.
There's dozens after that. Butanything, we always kick off my books
usually at the St. LouisCounty Library, which is the number
(38:08):
one author speaking series inthe country.
Really?
Yes. And they've got thatbrand new building there at Lindbergh
and Highway 40. Greatauditorium. So invite everybody,
come out and listen to a lotdeeper discussion on St. Louis baseball
greatness.
And the book is really hot offthe press folks. Like last Friday
from Reedy Press So you canget this at Ready press. Go to readypress.com
(38:31):
it's available there. Mainlast question I've got for you, Ed,
is and I always ask thisquestion and some people may say,
why do you ask that questionall the time? But to me, I'm always
inquisitive because I want toknow what you have discovered that
has been like, man, I didn'tknow that about this player or I
didn't know this aboutbaseball or this city or this stadium
(38:54):
in this book. The biggestsurprise that as you were doing your
research and you said holycow. And your wife was like, what'd
you find now, Ed, what wasthat big surprise for you? That big
wow?
I think the big, the biggestholy cow. And there were, there's
a lot in the in there wasreally Roger Connor, a player I really
(39:16):
never heard about. And he wasthe man who for 25, over 25 years,
I think it was 28, held thecareer home run record that Babe
Ruth finally adopted. And he'salso, he was so big and tall, he
became the image thateventually led to the New York Giants
be called being called theGiants. So there's another backstory
(39:39):
to that. But Roger Connor, Iremember watching the Hank Aaron
Countdown to 7:15 and it hadnever been brought up. Never ever.
No, he is not one that I, Ican't tell you how many times I've
been through the Cardinalshall of Fame. It just never jumped
(40:00):
out at me. There's all thelittle quirky stories like a you
always heard about Ernie Banksnever played in the World Series.
A gentleman by the name ofBobby Thomas Wallace. Bobby Wallace
played for the Cardinals andthen the Browns. There's 66 men who
played for the Browns andCardinals and six of them, there's
all 15 of the hall of Famersof the Browns are in the book. We
(40:24):
only have nine under thesection of Browns because the others
are covered as their time inthe Cardinals. And that's also kind
of like they always had theirbetter years with the Cardinals than
they were on their down yearswhen they got to the Browns because
they didn't want to leave St.Louis. But what would have happened
if it was the other wayaround? But so it is. There's, there
(40:44):
are the, it's hard to just sayone, but that is probably like, why
did I not know that?
Maybe because he was born in1857. I'm reading right now. He died
in 1931, but he played withthe Browns in 1897. He was National
League champion twice nationalleague batting leader, RBI leader
(41:07):
and 6, 3, 220. And back thenthat was huge. That was big.
And one thing to say there,right there, when he said he played
for the Browns there in the1890s, that's one of the biggest
kind of. The term Browns islike a cat with nine lives in St.
Louis baseball. Because therewas 1876. See, St. Louis has had
four major league teams. 1876and 77. They were the St. Louis Browns
(41:30):
Stockings. They got kicked outof the league for gambling and game
fixing issues which wasprevalent in those days. But they
got kicked out. The Americanassociation was created by a gentleman,
Chris Vonderij. Many of yourreaders will remember that he was
a big beer baron of those daysand heard about it. He was an immigrant
from Germany. Heard aboutbaseball. It's good. So I can sell
(41:52):
a lot of beer. And his tavernwas just up the street from Sportsman's
Park. Would go to the ballgame. And then the American association
was very popular because theyserved beer and played on Sundays
where the National League waspuritanical. And they played as the
Brown Stockings, taking homageto the name of that other team from
(42:13):
several years earlier. Andthen they were so good they won multiple
championships of the Americanassociation and actually are the
only American association teamto beat a National League team because
they had a tournament ofchampions prior to the World series.
And this St. Louis team beat ateam from Chicago that had won, which
(42:34):
will be the Cubs. Andestablishes that rivalry between
the cardinals and St. Louis.And then when the Cardinals when
his Brown Stockings actuallymoved into the National League. Because
if you couldn't beat them, youmight as well let them join. In 1892
they came in as the Browns. Sohe actually played on a team called
(42:57):
the Browns. But in 1898 theychanged their name to the Perfectos.
And then they would dome thelovely shade of Cardinal red. And
there ever be the Cardinals.You got to be very careful when you
throw out which franchiseyou're talking about. Because then
in 1901 the Milwaukee brewers,as we said a moment ago, moved it
(43:19):
to St. Louis and took the termBrown in homage to all those others
we know as people think CyYoung came here. He came here and
he played in 1898 and 99 heplayed for the Perfectos. And then
they changed their name to theCardinals and things. And he won
46 of his 511 games here inSt. Louis. People don't know that
(43:40):
Cy Young was a key part of St.Louis baseball history.
See folks, this is why youneed to get this book and Ed's other
books because. And this is whyhe's our resident baseball history
expert. He's got a wealth ofknowledge. This book's a great book.
It's called From St. Louis toCooperstown Baseball Legends Born
and Made in the Gateway City.It's available From Reedy Press,
(44:01):
reedypress.com Ed, great tosee you again.
Thanks for coming in. I'mhappy to be here because you get
me going, man. And there'snothing better than talking baseball.
That's right. That's right.And you know it. It's great talking
to Ed Wheatley. We enjoyhaving him in the studio each and
every time. Even when hedoesn't have a book out. It's great
to just pick his brain aboutwhat's going on with baseball, not
(44:22):
only here in St. Louis, butacross the United States. Our word
for the day is liaison. Itrefers to a person who helps organizations
or groups work together andprovide information to each other
or to a relationship thatallows such interactions. I would
say that Ed Wheatley is aliaison to baseball and the public
(44:46):
because he informs us aboutwhat's happening about players, about
the development of players,and about the history of baseball.
So just to close out the showwith a few funnies for you folks,
finally my winter fat is gone.Now I have spring rolls. Hmm. Just
help my neighbor bury a rolledup carpet in the woods. Her boyfriend
(45:09):
would have done it, but he'sout of town. So. A man loses three
fingers in a work accident andat the hospital he asks the doctor,
will I be able to drive withthis hand? The doctor replies, maybe,
but I wouldn't count on it.And finally, the main function of
(45:33):
the little toe on your foot isto make sure that all the furniture
in the house is in place.That's all for this hour. Thanks
for listening. If you'veenjoyed this episode, you can listen
to additionalshows@stlandune.com consider leaving
a review on our website, ApplePodcasts, Podchaser, or your preferred
(45:55):
podcast platform. Yourfeedback helps us reach more listeners
and continue to grow. I wantto thank Bob Berthisel for our theme
music, our guest, Ed Wheatley,co host, Mark Langston, who's on
assignment, and we thank youfor being a part of our community
of curious minds. Thank Louis.In Tune is a production of Motif
Media Group and the US RadioNetwork. Remember to keep seeking,
keep learning, walk worthy,and let your light shine. For St.
(46:17):
Louis in tune, I'm Arnold Stricker.
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