November 17, 2025 • 45 mins
Christopher Alan Gordon takes us on a captivating journey through time as he unveils the poignant stories captured in his latest book, "Letters Home from World War II: St. Louis, Messages of Hope and Heartbreak from the Front Lines." We get to peek into personal correspondence that emerged from one of history's most tumultuous periods. Gordon's exploration isn't just about the letters; it's a revealing of the emotions and experiences of those who fought in the war, as well as their loved ones back home.
With witty banter and insightful commentary, our hosts Arnold and Mark guide us through the fascinating world of military correspondence, highlighting the unique challenges of censorship that shaped the way soldiers communicated. The episode shines a light on the human side of history, showing how these letters reveal not just the realities of war, but the profound connections that endure despite the distance and danger.
We also touch on the importance of historical preservation and the role of institutions like the Missouri Historical Society, where Gordon serves as Director of Library and Collections. From tales of love and longing to the grit of wartime realities, Gordon's book encapsulates a moment in time, reminding us of the resilience of the human spirit even in the darkest of times.
[00:00] Surprising Historical Facts
[00:39] Introduction to St. Louis in Tune
[02:07] Meet Christopher Allen Gordon
[02:51] The Making of 'Letters Home from World War II'
[03:51] Archival Research and Collection
[14:06] The Role of Women and Social Movements
[18:19] The 6888th Central Postal Directory Battalion
[22:02] William Chesney Martin's Military Service
[26:16] Navigating the Home Buying Process
[27:02] Welcome Back to St. Louis In Tune
[27:12] Interview with Christopher Allen Gordon
[27:38] St. Louis' Role in World War II
[31:09] Writing and Researching the Book
[34:54] Upcoming Book Signings and Events
[39:05] Fun Facts and Lighthearted Banter
[43:57] Closing Remarks and Credits
Takeaways:
- Did you know Anheuser Busch was cranking out diesel engines during World War II? Who knew beer could fuel both battles and vehicles?
- Christopher Alan Gordon's book, 'Letters Home from World War II', dives into the emotional roller coaster of soldiers' letters, revealing heartfelt stories and hidden humor.
- The military censorship during World War II was intense, with letters often looking like Swiss cheese due to heavy redactions—talk about a twist on communication!
- Gordon’s research highlights how individuals from St. Louis played significant roles in the war, showcasing a fascinating blend of local history and global impact.
This is Season 8! For more episodes, go to stlintune.com
#ww2 #wII #warletters #ww2stlouis #warstories #firsthandaccounts #reedypress #WorldWarIIhistory #Warletters #MissouriHistoricalSociety
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Were you aware that AnheuserBusch produced diesel engines during
World War II? How about, wereyou aware that the head of the New
York Stock Exchange enteredthe army as a private, retired as
a colonel, and ended up beingthe head of the Federal Reserve?
What about the firstMissourian killed at Pearl Harbor?
He's very significant.
And you will know his name.You can find out more about that
on St. Louis and Tune. Welcometo St. Louis in Tune. And thank you
(00:37):
for joining us for freshperspectives on issues and events
with experts, communityleaders, and everyday people who
make a difference in shapingour society and world. I'm Arnold
Stricker along with co hostMark Langston.
Hey, how.
Come on down, Mark.
I know.
I feel like it's a game show.
(00:57):
We do have those Jeopardy.
Clips too, somewhere. We'vegot it right now you're looking for
right now, but we're not gonna.
Don't push your buttonbuzzers, please.
But please don't pop thosebuttons until an answer is exposed.
No. Sorry. So you will receivesome parting gifts from us. Thank
you so very much. Okay.
Have them in a loop or something.
I know.
I. We just play as many as wecan. I know. Okay. Welcome to the
(01:19):
show, folks.
We're glad that you've joinedus today. We want to thank our sponsor,
Better.
Rate Mortgage, for their support.
You can listen to previousshows@stlintune.com please help us
continue to grow by leaving areview on our website, Apple Podcast,
or your preferred podcastplatform. Our thought to ponder today
is by Michelangelo.
Oh, okay.
(01:41):
The greatest danger for mostof us is not that our aim is too
high and we miss it, but thatit is too low and we reach it.
Ooh, that's very wise.
It is very wise, yes.
Michael.
Now, that can't be said of ourguest today. He's always reaching
for heights, and he achievesthem and he sets new heights. Christopher
(02:04):
Alan Gordon is an author. He'salso an American historian, lecturer,
and museum professional in St.Louis, where he serves as the Director
of Library and Collections forthe Missouri Historical Society.
He's the recipient of the MarkSimmons Writing Award for his research
on the history of the Santa Fetrail and his 2018 book, Fire, Pestilence
and Death. St. Louis, 1849 wonan award of excellence from the American
(02:29):
association for State andLocal History and a silver medal
for regional nonfictionhistory by the Independent Book Publishers
Association. He's in studio totalk about his newest book, Letters
Home from World War II. St.Louis. Christopher, welcome to St.
Louis in Tune.
Thank you for having me.
Wow. This book was. It's agreat read, folks. And it's. I don't
(02:51):
want to say it's a fast read,but it's a fast read because I'm
so enthused with the topic andwhat you have brought out from these
letters. I guess, what was theimpetus for writing the book to begin
with?
There were millions of piecesof mail that were created during
World War II. We had somethinglike 7 million servicemen. Right.
Service people think of thevolume of mail that they are creating.
(03:16):
It's pretty common to haveWorld War II collections in an archive.
And I was having aconversation actually with Josh Stevens
at Rady Press, and I was like,it would be really interesting to
see what's out there and tryto compile them in one place in one
book. And the more I thoughtabout it, I thought, that's a really
good idea. And I bet there aresome really great collections out
(03:38):
there. I just started combingthrough the archives and not just
at my own Missouri HistoricalSociety, but various repositories
around the region and foundsome great stuff.
You go back to the researcharea at the Missouri Historical Society,
and is it like a letterssection or is it. You have to go
back to World War II sectionor how is it cataloged for you?
(03:59):
So archives are generallytasked with creating what's called
a finding aid. So that findingaid is basically an index to a collection.
And when most people donate acollection to an archive, that is,
it becomes a collection thatusually has their name or it has
what that collection refersto. So like The World War II letters
(04:21):
of Bob Smith's World War IIletters or what have you. When you
put all that together, youcreate like a guide. And most archives
will have some kind of post itguide, so it's a little bit easier
to find what you're looking for.
Okay.
So at the Missouri HistoricalSociety, we have. That's what we
have. We have an archivesguide that breaks down our 3,800
(04:43):
collections, archivalcollections, and then you can like
keyword search it and thingslike that. It's not always that easy,
depending on the size of thearchive. But luckily our place is
organized like that, so it wasa good launching point. Also places
like the State HistoricalSociety, Missouri, which is a separate
organization.
And your president of that, correct?
(05:03):
No, the. I'm president of theMissouri association for Museums
and Archives, which is anadvocacy group.
Okay.
No, the State HistoricalSociety of Missouri is a state agency.
Okay.
Missouri historical site isactually privately chartered, but
people get them confused allthe time. But there's great places
like the St. CharlesHistorical Society. A lot of people
don't know that the St. LouisPublic Library has a great manuscript
(05:26):
collection as well. So it wasjust a matter of going through the
weeds in all these places. Wow.
Now, this is a side question.It is related to the book, but it's
not related to the book. Whydo people decide to donate to a collection
to the Historical Society? Andwhat comprises a collection? Do you
go, somebody says, I've gotthis stuff here. Maybe it's photographs
(05:47):
or letters or books orwhatever, or artwork or. What do
you decide? No, that's notreally what we need. You have certain,
like, levels or standards thatyou want. And yes, you turn people
away or you go, yeah, we'dreally like that.
Yeah, all the above, actually.An archive and. Or a museum. They
have what's called acollecting scope. So their mission
identifies with thatcollecting scope. So the Missouri
(06:09):
Historical Society, Primarilywe collect St. Louis regional history
or older Missouri history thatis like the colonial period or pre
Civil War, if it has to dowith eastern Missouri primarily.
So when you're looking at anew collection, that's the type of
criteria you're first lookingfor. How does it fit our scope, our
(06:32):
mission? Why do people donatethis? Luckily, they do it to preserve
history, do it to preservetheir family history. Many people
find it an honor to have thisincluded and add to the story of
our region. When we take thisstuff in, it's not just available
to, say, genealogists. It'savailable to scholars all over the
(06:57):
world, really. And it'samazing what in some of these collections,
what you find. Often you havepeople come in that say, I want to
donate this because I know mykids have no interest in it. I hear
that constantly. And I don'tfind it sad because we get good stuff
in our collection. But I guessfrom a family standpoint, you might
(07:18):
say it's been sitting on.
The shelves, been hollering around.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thething is that. And you see this all
the time in the history world,whether it's archives or museums
or what have you. Yeah,younger people generally don't have
a lot of history interest inhistory until they reach about 40,
and then they get the historybug. And sometimes you think if you
(07:41):
could hang on to it for alittle while longer, your kids probably
will have an interest in it.But that's in a perfect world. But
yeah, it certainly benefitsorganizations like my own, because
then we're able to bring inthese great collections and preserve
them forever. Really, they'renot at risk of being lost, thrown
away, or getting eaten by bugsor what have you.
(08:02):
And especially on this, withthis book, these letters really give
varied insights into whatpeople were thinking, their emotions
during the war, being awayfrom home, et cetera, like that.
How did you cipher throughthese thousands of letters to come
up with the ones that are inthe book?
One of the things that peopledon't often realize with World War
(08:25):
II letters, people watchdocumentaries like the Ken Burns
Civil War or a lot of thegreat movies and documentaries about
World War I, where you hearsoldiers letters being written and
they talk about, oh, I was onthe battlefield at Manassas and I
watched my buddies die and allthis kind of stuff. When you get
(08:46):
to World War II, that doesn'thappen anymore. The military heavily
censored every piece of mail.And so what would happen is that
you would write a letter, youwould address it, toss it in a bag,
your battalion chief orwhatever would collect all that.
They'd throw it on a supplytruck, it would go to a depot somewhere.
(09:07):
Unfortunately, most of thetime they'd take that sack off and
they'd throw it in a warehouseand it would sit there for weeks
or months because the militarydid not have a good postal or logistical
plan for a long time. Butanyway, at some point, a military
censor, sometimes it was your,say, your CO or something, but a
military censor would gothrough your letter and if they saw
(09:30):
something that did not fit thecriteria, they would either redact
it, they'd put heavy black penover it or whatever, or sometimes
they would actually take anexacto knife and cut out the whole
sentence.
Wow.
So I've seen letters that looklike Swiss cheese because they're
all these little boxes thatare all cut out. But they. And then
(09:51):
on state side, sometimes thosesame kind of rules actually applied
to states home front as well.So say your mom wrote you a letter
and she said, oh, your brotherover at the aircraft factory, he's
on strike. Well, they didn'twant you to say stuff like that.
Yeah.
So they would send it back toyour mom and say, rewrite this and
(10:11):
take this out. Or sometimesthey would redact those too.
Yeah, they opened all theletters, read them all. And yes,
I know some of the lettersthey self. They put parentheses where
they were. Yeah, they did iton their own.
They could say things. You hadto keep it as general as possible
if you were going to say whereyou were. So you could say, I'm somewhere
in the Pacific. What does thatmean? That's what, 200,000 mile or
(10:35):
200 million miles or whateverit is. You could say somewhere in
the Pacific, you could saysomewhere in Italy or somewhere in
France after D Day or afterthe invasions and things like that.
But yeah, they. And theydidn't want you to talk about the
weather. They were afraid thateven mentioned, like rain, that the
Germans or the Japanese orwhatever could guess where you were
based on the rain weatherpatterns. Again, you were not supposed
(10:58):
to talk about any kind ofmovement or casualties or anything
like that. So when I would gothrough and pick out these letters,
I'm really looking for theletters where the writers were articulate
enough, had the discretion to.They knew how to maneuver, and basically.
Say they self censored.
(11:19):
They self censored, but itstill expressed their feelings or
still talk about things, butin a very general, encoded way, cryptic
way, whatever you want to say.And some people had that. Some people
had that ability, others notso much. I read a lot of letters
that were like, hi, mom, howare you? I am fine. How's Grandma?
(11:41):
The end. Love, Bob. That's it.
You must have gone through alot of letters just for the book.
How many are in the book?
There's 28 in the book.
And how many did you gothrough to get to those 28?
Oh, gosh, I don't know.Hundreds, probably hundreds. Yeah.
That sounds like a daunting task.
Yeah, but it's really veryinteresting. And. And I had the same
(12:03):
situation happen when I waswriting my first book, Fire, Pestilence
and Death, about the choleraepidemic here in St. Louis. Is you
find these collections and youstart reading these stories and you
develop an emotionalconnection to this person. And then
it's horrible when you findout that they didn't make it or something
like that. It's just. It'sjust as bad 80 years later. Yeah,
(12:27):
but. But certainlyinteresting. And there's one kid
in. In particular that I. Hisname was John Washington. He was
an African American privateand he was assigned to work in like
an ammunitions depot over inItaly. He saw a lot of what was going
on over there and he talkedin. But he was writing these great
(12:48):
letters home to his mother,trying to reassure her, I'm okay.
Don't worry about me. Hewrites this, and this is included
in the book. A great letter,just like a parody. It's hilarious.
He's talking about the food.He said, oh, the cooks over here
are very religious. They makeburnt offerings every day. You know,
things like that. It's greatstuff. But he was madly in love with
(13:13):
this Girl back home who wasn'tgiving him the time of day anymore.
Apparently his friends hadwritten to him, him and said, she
has no interest in youanymore. So he had a little diary
that we have in the archivesat the Missouri Historical Society
now. And he's pouring out hisheart. Oh, I miss her so bad. And
this kind of stuff, but I knowshe doesn't have any. Wants anything
to do with me type of thing.So you read that kind of stuff, too.
(13:36):
And it really. But he made ithome and he eventually had a good
career and he had a bigfamily. So it had a happy ending.
Yeah, it had a happy ending.
Did those diaries. Did otherpeople have diaries to support the
letters or give you a littlebit more background information about
what was going on?
On rare occasions, I wouldfind those. Yeah. Another thing that
(13:57):
you see in these letters isyou get a hint of what's going to
happen in the future with someof these individuals. And in particular,
like, talk about how there wassuch a social movement, so many social
movements that come out of thewar. And one is definitely the woman's.
The women's movement. Andthere's two collections in particular.
One is Adela Schar, who was aservice pilot, a ferry service pilot.
(14:20):
And then Jean Schwarting. GeneSchwarting Anderson, later, she was
a wave. And they're bothtalking about how they're as women,
how they're experiencing adifferent war, basically different
situation. Jean Schwarting wasparticularly funny because she is
(14:43):
going through officer trainingin Massachusetts. And her letters
talk about how they're justtraining these women to do things
that we just, you know, wechuckle at now. It's like how to
change a light bulb, becausethat was a man's duty. And these
letters, oh, we had to get aladder and climb up on the ladder
and unscrew the light bulb. Welaugh at that today, but that was
(15:05):
considered a man's duty athome. But they were having them do
much more challenging things.They had to climb up on the roof
one day. It was like a firedrill type of thing. And I named
the actual chapter after thatline in the letter. She says, a lot
of mothers would get gray ifthey could see their daughters flying
(15:27):
around here in the Navy way.And that was that one particular
letter about how they wereclimbing up on the ladder to get
on the roof and stuff. And shesaid, yeah, the mothers knew that
their daughters were doing allthis, what would consider be manly
things and so forth, that theywould be having a heart attack.
Wow, it's crazy.
Oh, yeah.
(15:48):
That's amazing.
This is Arnold Stricker withMark Langston of St. Louis and Tomb.
We're talking to ChristopherAlan Gordon. He's the author of his
new book, Letters Home FromWorld War II, St. Louis, Messages
of Hope and Heartbreak fromthe Front Lines. Christopher, something
I think that I reallyappreciated about your book is the
other research that you wentin to describe a little bit about
that maybe area thatparticular person was going to be
(16:11):
in. The other thing thatreally stood out to me was when speaking
about the women, when thewomen started the Rosie the Riveter
started getting involved withwork that was being done to produce
airplanes or tanks orammunition that also the disabled
were involved. And then theywere thought of, yeah, you really
can do this. And so there waslike, this, I don't want to say a
great awakening, but there wasthis awakening with the. The military
(16:35):
and with providers of thingsfor the military that, wow, disabled
people can really do somethings in their wheelhouse.
Yeah, that's probably was themost surprising, revealing thing
for me. I had no idea. So yousee the roots of the disability movement,
and there's. There's thisarticle in the. I think it was in
the Globe Democrat here in St.Louis, and they're talking about
(16:59):
there's such a need for labor,and they took a chance and they hired
these individuals thatprobably wouldn't have a job otherwise.
And they've really proventhemselves they can do this work,
and that's great for them. Butit's also a great example of how
it's a testament to the factthat when our servicemen come back
(17:20):
and they may be missing an armor a leg or whatever, that they can
still be productive members ofsociety. And so that was very revealing
for me. I was like, wow, neverhad even considered that. But, yeah,
that's again, one of thosesocial movements that the women's
movement and of course, thecivil rights movement was already
underway, but Certainly WorldWar II gives it a big boost. These
(17:43):
guys, like the Tuskegee Airmenand all these other various guys
that are going through, like,officer training and are stationed
throughout the world anddemanding equal treatment, and when
they come out, they're goingto be involved in that civil rights
movement going into the 50sand 60s.
And wasn't it a group ofAfrican American women who got the
(18:05):
postal system altogether inEngland and got the backlog up to
date and really was themovement for getting all the mail?
Yeah. So the six Triple eightBattalion, which nowadays is getting
a lot of attention, luckily,happily, because for 80 years, basically
(18:25):
70, 80 years they've beenignored when they did a monumental
job. As I. As I mentioned, youhad all these servicemen mailing
letters home. They weregetting thrown in warehouses because
the military just did not havethe logistics to handle the mail.
So the interesting thing aboutthat, the irony of that is that the.
(18:47):
During the whole. During thewhole war, they understood the importance
of the morale of mail. You'dthink that they would have given
more thought to postalbattalions and getting all this process,
but they did not. So therewere warehouses in England, these
old rickety warehouses, forthe most part, where this mail was
(19:08):
just accumulating by themillions bags and bags of it. So
finally, they tasked the 688thCentral Postal Directory Battalion,
made up entirely of AfricanAmerican women. A number of them
were from here in St. Louis.The battalion reached about. I think
it was 854 women by the end ofthe end of the war. But they were
(19:34):
trained here in the US andthen they were sent to England and
they were told to sort outthis millions and millions of pieces
of mail that had accumulated.And they get in there, and sadly,
there was very little justicefor these women because they were
being treated crappily anywaybecause of who they were. But they
(19:54):
get there and there's like,pigeon poop all over these bags and
rats are eating it and allthis kind of stuff. And they're like.
The white officers are like,do something, basically.
Sure.
So they had to start fromscratch. There were something like
7,600 Robert Smiths that wereserving in the military. And mom
(20:15):
and dad would write, RobertSmith, U.S. army, England. And they.
That was it.
Yeah.
So these ladies had to findwhat units these guys were in and
where they were moving and allthis kind of stuff. And Netflix came
out couple years ago with.With a movie about this unit.
Really?
Yeah. It's on Netflix. You canwatch it. It's called Six Triple
(20:36):
Eight. Kerry Washington playsCharity Adams, who is the commander
of the unit. And it goes intodetail about how these women really
thought. Put the thought intohow they could maneuver and find
all these guys. Anyway, theywere given six months to process
this mail, and they did it inthree months.
Good for them.
And it was something like65,000 pieces of mail per shift.
(21:00):
They were going through 24hours a day to get this done. And
by the end of the war, theyhad processed over 17 million pieces
of mail. Wow.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
An unknown group of women whohave not been acknowledged, and African
American women to boot.
Yeah. And morale. Oh, mygoodness. I can't imagine being on
(21:23):
the front and getting a letterfrom home. What that must have done.
Oh, yeah, that was mentionedin. One of the individuals that I
mentioned at the front end ofthe show teasing people was this
individual who was head of theNew York Stock Exchange, was from
St. Louis. He went in as aprivate and he saw, he knew systems,
he developed systems. He wasan executive and he was amazed at
(21:46):
how the army was not preparedor morale at boot camp and was not
good. And then he just notfell into it. But he had his own
skill set which reallypromoted him.
So William McChesney Martinends up being the longest serving
Federal Reserve chairman inAmerican history. He served under
something like fivepresidents. But yes, his beginnings
(22:09):
were here in St. Louis. He's ayoung man, he's 30 years old and
he's president of the New YorkStock Exchange. He's living in New
York city. And in 1940, theUnited States initiates the first
peacetime draft. BecauseRoosevelt and everyone, they know
something's gonna happen. Andthere's actually very little resistance
(22:30):
to that. That was one of theother interesting things I found
about when I did my research,is there was not a whole lot of pushback
on that. People were willingto be conscripted and to serve anyway.
His name is drawn and it wasexpected. A lot of these guys who
had this level of power, I'mgoing to get a deferment or get out
(22:52):
of this one way or another.And Martin said no. He said, I think
that I should act as anexample to all men and start like
everybody else. And he went inas a private, went to Fort Dix, got
assigned to be like a, somekind of flunky clerk in an office.
(23:14):
And the letter that I use forMartin is there was a group that
was formed around1940-1934-1939-1940. They were very
concerned about the state ofAmerican democracy and democracy
in general in the world. Theywere watching Hitler and the Imperial
Japanese and so forth. Andthis guy was friends with Martin
(23:38):
and he writes to Martin, hesays, what do you think? What's your
assessment of the, the moraleof the American serviceman? This
was before the war. This waslike 1940, 1941. And he writes this
multi page report as astockbroker or as a analyst would
do. And he basically istalking about, I've talked with all
(23:59):
these men, all my, all myfellow servicemen, and this is what
I've seen. And he said, one ofthe things is they're willing to
serve, but they have no ideawhat they're fighting for. They have
very little concept ofdemocracy. And he said on top of
that, the military isn't doinga whole lot to encourage it. I don't
(24:19):
see flags around here. I don'tsee military bands. There needs to
be a whole mechanism in placeto educate these guys. And so it's
a fantastic insight into whatthe kind of mental state was at that
time. But of course, December7, 1941, the Pearl harbor attack,
and people really, there wasvery few people that questioned serving.
(24:47):
Right.
And one of the stories I talkabout in the book is over at a municipal
auditorium there was a USOdance every Sunday night. And I was
a little surprised that on thenight of December 7th they went ahead
and had that USO dance. Andthe global Democrat goes over. Reporter
(25:07):
from the Democrat goes overand he's interviewing these guys
that are already in theservice and they're saying, we expected
this to happen, but we got toget it done. We're here to serve
and we got to get it done. Andit's a job to do and we're going
to do it. So, yeah, it'spretty interesting the how there
was just very few people thatwere questioning serving at that
(25:32):
time.
Right.
Yeah.
This is Arnold Stricker withMark Langston of St. Louis in Tune.
We are talking to ChristopherAllen Gordon, author of his newest
his latest book, Letters Homefrom World War II St. Louis. We're
going to take a brief breakand we'll be right back.
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Welcome back to St. Louis in Tune.
This is Arnold's Tricker withMark Langston.
Mark is spinning in his chair.He loves the music theme so much.
(27:05):
Just moving around. Here wegot Christopher Alan Gordon, author
and director of the Librariesand Collections at the Missouri Historical
Society, here in studio totalk about letters home from World
War II. St. Louis. Messages ofhope and heartbreak from the front
line. Speaking of Pearl harborgoes to the first Missouri Missourian
(27:26):
who was killed in the battle.And his name is widely known in Missouri,
especially in westernMissouri. And I'll let you take it
from there.
Yeah. Anyone that is familiarwith military bases in Missouri and
has ever traveled down eitherHighway 70 or Highway 50 towards
Kansas City will have passedWhiteman Air Force Base, which was
(27:47):
originally called SedaliaAirfield, but it was renamed in the
honor of George Whiteman, whowas the first Missourian killed in
Pearl Harbor.
Never knew that.
Never knew that. Yeah, Ididn't either.
These are the kind of things you.
Find out in the book. And alsolike Anheuser Busch was making. What
did I say they were making?
(28:08):
The diesel engine.
Diesel engines.
Yeah.
On the sly.
Missouri had St. Louis area.Do we make a lot of things for the
war? I thought we did.
Oh, yeah. And I know evenbefore the war.
I know out of 70 andGoodfellow, there used to be an armory
there. I think they just.
Ammunition plant.
Yeah. That they just toredown. And that was, I believe, from
World War II.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah. Those of you whoremember your high school history,
(28:31):
college history will rememberthe Lend Lease program, which was.
There was a lot of pushback.People remembered World War I. They
didn't really want the US tobe involved in any aspect of the
war, whether it was in Europeor Asia. They didn't really think.
Honestly, they didn't reallythink too much of Asia at all. They
were worried about Hitler. Andthen Roosevelt luckily realized that
(28:57):
our allies like Britain werenot going to hold out if we did nothing.
And so he pushed Congress topass the Lend Lease program, which
was a way to get around thatneutrality. You could send our allies
arms and supplies and thingslike that, but we weren't directly
involved in the conflict. Inorder to supply them with all that
(29:18):
armor and defensivecapabilities, you have to build it.
And corporations like CurtissWright Aircraft and Douglas Aircraft
and things like that, theybegin upping production. And those
plants were right here in St.Louis for Curtis Wright and then
Douglas, and they're buildingtransport planes and bombers before
(29:40):
the war here and constantlyadding on to these facilities, which
was this huge economic boostfor a city that had been hit by the
Great Depression. Oh, yeah,you read These articles say 5,000
jobs will be produced by thisand then we're adding on 8,000 more
(30:01):
jobs will be produced and soforth. And even before the war, there's
people are migrating to St.Louis to take these jobs, which of
course will also have longterm implications, but. And then
they build Western CartridgeCompany and then American Car and
Foundry, which was. They maderailroad cars. They would eventually,
(30:23):
after the war began, theywould switch to tank production and
landing craft production andthings like that. Wow. All these
companies are expanding.They're switching over to defense
contracts and creating justthousands of jobs all across the
St. Louis region. American Carand Foundry had two plants, actually
(30:43):
three plants, two in the city.They had one over in Granite City,
Illinois, and then they hadanother in St. Charles. They would
produce light tanks and latersome heavy tanks. But all these landing
craft that you see like in Dday and Iwo Jima and things like
that, a lot of those wereproduced right here.
Oh, that's crazy. How long didit take you to write this book? From
(31:09):
inception of talking at Reedyand then boom, we're done.
Believe it or not, a year.
Wow, that's fast.
Yeah. The first book I wrotetook much longer. Having one under
my belt was a little bit. Itmade it a little bit easier. But
yeah. Yeah, I had a year to crank.
It out and how many hours a day?
(31:31):
Oh, I don't know. Whenever Icould squeeze it. I have a day job
too. Yeah.
Come home from work and gonnawork on the book. You just can't.
You have to consistently dosomething. You just can't put it
aside for a week or two. Andwhere was I? What was I doing here?
I think picking the lettersthat you wanted is what a challenge.
(31:51):
That tough thing.
Yeah. Are you a speed reader?
Oh, no, I don't know. I'm nota slow reader. But I also have. I
also have an advantage becausebeing in the museum and archives
fields, I have connection. Ihad people that were, you know.
I could say this stack is agood stack.
Yeah. I can recommend thiscollection or that collection. So
(32:12):
that certainly makes my jobeasier. And. And it's great when
you're. Whether you're aprofessional historian like myself,
or a genealogy or whatever,genealogist or whatever, to be able
to actually talk to anarchivist in one of these places.
And that's where you get themost insight.
I appreciate getting it alllike the funnel effect where you
get it all together and we getit into a wonderful book like this.
(32:35):
Letters from Letters Home fromWorld War II. I think that's great
that you've done.
The hard work for us was theconcept to print the letter, read
the letter, talk about alittle bit about where that person
was, what they were goingthrough, their connection to St.
Louis. And also, I like thatyou followed up and told us what
happened to that person.
(32:56):
Yeah, yeah, I would. Again,going back to the model of my first
book, I love telling thesestories from beginning to end. The
other thing, there's threethings I look for. One is using primary
sources, like the history isbest told through the eyes of the
person who was actuallywitnessing it. Eye, Witnessing it,
experiencing it. So you getthat insight, you get that emotion.
(33:19):
The second thing is puttingeverything in context. And that's
what I wanted to do in thisbook too. I don't just talk about
the letters. I'm talking aboutwhat's going on in St. Louis at that
time. Because it's all one bigstory, right? For what's going on
on the battlefield. And I amnot a. First of all, I'm not a military
historian and I am not a 20thcentury historian. I'm a 19th century
(33:40):
guy. So this was a learningexperience for me too. I saw, I grew
up watching all those greatWorld War II movies and I thought,
yeah, I know all about WorldWar II.
Sure you do.
No, I don't know anythingabout it. When you really start digging
into it, it's prettyfascinating and it's amazing. It's
such. There are just volumesand volumes have written about World
(34:01):
War II. And one of theinteresting things someone was asking
me about this is so much of itis from the perspective of the leaders,
the generals like WinstonChurchill and all that is certainly
fascinating. But these are theguys that were actually fighting.
The guys I'm talking about theletters home. They're the ones on
(34:21):
the ground. And there areclear instances in this book where,
where individuals wereemotionally overwhelmed. That PTSD
comes out of this for sure. Ihave a chapter about two brothers
who certainly were sufferingfrom PTSD and had very long term
consequences for them. And so,yeah, it was a learning experience
(34:46):
for me, but it was also. Youreally get the depth of it by looking
at these letters.
And you've got some upcomingbook signings. Last night you were
at the U City Public Library.
Yeah, that was great.
And you've got. So write thesedown, folks. But we'll also, if you're
driving, don't write it down.We'll put this on the podcast page.
Saturday, November 8th atBarnes Noble, West County Mall. That's
(35:07):
from 1 o' clock to 2 o' clockon Monday, November 10th, at the
Pacific Branch Scenic RegionalLibrary in Pacific, Missouri. That's
6 to 7pm and on November 15,Saturday from 1 to 3pm at the Belle
Fountain or BellefontaineCemetery, however you want to say
it, at Hotchkiss Chapel,November 19th in St. Charles at the
(35:29):
Kathryn Linneman branch. Andthen you go all the way to May 26
at the Warrenton Branchlibrary. Or if you're from Warrenton,
it's Warrenton. And you can goout and get your book signed and
listen to what Christopher hasto say about the book.
Now you're going to be at achapel at the cemetery. Is that what
(35:50):
you said?
Yeah, yeah.
That's different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Belle Fountain is a greatplace. And I actually the final resting
place for at William McChesneyMartin once again.
Oh, and lots of other famousSt. Louis.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. We couldprobably do a show on St. Louis cemeteries.
Oh, they're fascinating.
(36:10):
Yeah.
I think there's. I thinkthere's a Reedy press book out on.
Is there?
Yeah, if there isn't, therewill be.
Yeah.
There actually is one.
Yeah.
On Bell Fountain.
Yeah. It's a fascinating.
So how's response been to the book?
Good. Very good. Sellingbooks, which is always good.
I really enjoyed. I'm not allthe way through. I've. I really enjoy
what I've read so far. Andyou've got some pictures which for
(36:33):
some of the folks who like tosee some pictures about some of the
individuals in there, whichmakes it a little more personal.
There was a story in here Iwas mentioning to Christopher about
a football coach here in St.Louis who was at McKinley and Roosevelt
High School, who happened tobe my father's football coach.
Okay.
And was found out a little bitabout him which I never knew. So
that was interesting. Soexcellent job.
(36:55):
I think the history of WorldWar II is something we should preserve
and be aware of. I think someof this gets lost, I'm afraid.
Absolutely.
It shouldn't be. You shouldremember it. Yep. Give us a little
pat for coming in.
Thank you. Great talking with you.
We've been talking toChristopher Allen Gordon, author.
He's also director of libraryand collections for the Missouri
(37:17):
Historical Society. And youwant to get his book, folks? It's
on Amazon or you can go toreedypress.com Letters home from
World War II of St. Louis.Messages of hope and heartbreak from
the front lines.
All right.
Now you can stick around for alittle bit. We'll have a couple things
to do, and then we'll be done.If that's all right with you.
Yeah, sounds good.
You can participate in those things.
(37:38):
Excellent.
We'll be right back.
Okay.
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is a better mortgage. AtBetter Rate Mortgage, we open the
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(37:59):
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beginning. Betterratemortgage.com.
(38:31):
Welcome back to St. Louis inTune. This is Arnold Stricker with
Mark Langston. And you want toget the book Letters Home from World
War II St. Louis. It's byChristopher Allen Gordon, available
at Reedy Press, or you can goto Amazon. Check the podcast page@stlintune.com
when we post that and we'llhave a link directing you to either
of those sources.
I like the tagline. Messagesof hope and heartbreak from the front
(38:56):
lines.
Yes.
Yeah, that's what it is.
Both. Both were going on.
Yep, they sure were.
So our mental floss for theday. Mark, this is very interesting,
and it is St. Louis related.Did you know that the Rockettes,
the Radio City Rockettes, werefirst started formed in St. Louis
back in 1925, 100 years old,the Rockettes. And they started right
(39:17):
here in the Gateway City orthe Mound City.
Oh, they don't look that old.
No. And I'm surprised, youknow, that they're able to kick up
in the air 160 times per show.Wow. Like, what in the world? They
started with just 16 members.They're the longest running precision
(39:40):
dance company in the United States.
Wow. Good for them.
They were known as the Rockets.
What's that?
They were first known as the Rocket.
The Rockets.
See, we have a historian here.He's gonna.
And they started with just 16 members.
Back then, and now they havehow many?
84 women have trained. So Idon't know exactly how many they
have on their little kicking crew.
(40:02):
That's crazy. That's crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what days of the day do youhave, Mark?
This one is probably notnothing new for you, Arnold. National
Men Make Dinner Day.
That's right.
You make dinner.
I make dinner. Yes.
I don't. My son Matthew, myyoungest, he's making dinner now.
Good for him.
Yeah, he's that kind of thing.National Nacho Day. Do you like nachos?
(40:24):
Yeah. No, not bad. You likethem, Christopher?
Oh, yeah.
Let's see. International StoutDay. You need to go home and have
a. Have some stout.
A stout beer or a stout Nachos.
That sounds pretty.
Chocolate stout cake.
Yeah. With nachos. I'm not.National Basketball Day for those.
Basketball's just gettingstarted up. I guess they. They work
(40:46):
this out. So when basketball starts.
Good idea, huh?
Oh, National Saxophone Day.
Okay.
Didn't you play the saxophone?
I did on this. I'm a clarinetplayer by trade, but yes, I played
saxophone. Alto sax and tenor.
Yeah. National Team ManagerDay. That's for Christopher. It's
a team manager. Let's see. Idon't. Not much more actually going
(41:10):
on here.
Okay.
Yeah, that's about. That'senough. Maybe I could find more.
I'm sure for all of those ofyou who work in an office. And maybe
there's one bathroom or maybethere's a couple. I just replaced
the can of air freshener inthe office bathroom with an air horn.
And now we wait.
(41:32):
Love it. That's a great idea.Isn't that a good idea?
I like that. Yeah, that's great.
Being cremated is my last hopefor a smoking hot body.
That's my wife's smoking hot.
Robin Hood was hospitalizedrecently. Doctors think he has a
case of meningitis.
(41:53):
Wow. It's dangerous. You'regonna start World War three is what
you.
Yes.
You're old when you'reentering your birth year online and
have to spin that thing likeyou're on Wheel of Fortun.
Oh, man.
I've not lost my mind. Half ofit just wandered off and the other
(42:14):
half went looking for it. Andyesterday I helped my neighbor hang
a 75 inch television that hebought from some guy on the street.
When he turned it on, it wasthe menu from kfc.
I like that. There it is.
(42:37):
Back to your co workers atwork. You talked about the bathroom
thing. Here are some nicknamesfor lazy co workers. Cordless only
works for two hours. ET alwayswants to go home. KitKat always taking
a break. Muffler always exhausted.
(43:01):
Wow. Wow.
Seaweed just floats around all day.
Oh, yeah, I know that for sure.
I can't even. I can't see whatI'm looking at right now. My eyes
are squishing so much. Oh, mygosh. Gotta take my glasses off.
All right.
Now you can't see.
Sensor light only works ifsomeone walk walks past. And I love
(43:26):
this one wheelbarrow onlyworks when pushed. Maybe you know,
some folks like that at work.
Folks?
Those are their names. Okay.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Goodness. And we'll close withthis one.
What?
There's more.
Oh. When you're dead, youdon't know you're dead. The pain
is felt by others. The samething happens when you're stupid.
(43:47):
Thank you. Take a bow for thatone. That is absolutely.
Oh, mercy, folks. Mercy. Soglad that you joined us today. That's
all for this hour. Thank youfor listening. If you've enjoyed
this episode, wipe your eyesjust like I am. If you've enjoyed
this episode, you can listento to additional shows@stluntune.com.
consider leaving a review onour website, Apple Podcast, Podchaser,
(44:10):
or your preferred podcastplatform. Your feedback helps us
reach more listeners andcontinue to grow. Thanks to Bob Bertha
Sell for our theme music, oursponsor, Better Rate Mortgage, our
guest, Christopher Alan Gordonand co host, Mark Langston. And folks,
we thank you for being a partof our community of curious minds.
St Lucie in tune is aproduction of Motif Media Group and
the US Radio Network.Remember, keep seeking, keep learning,
(44:31):
walk worthy, and let yourlight shine for Saint Lucian Tune.
I'm Arnold Stricker.
(45:01):
Sam.
Were you aware that AnheuserBusch produced diesel engines during
World War II? How about, wereyou aware that the head of the New
York Stock Exchange enteredthe army as a private, retired as
a colonel, and ended up beingthe head of the Federal Reserve?
What about the firstMissourian killed at Pearl Harbor?
He's very significant.
And you will know his name.You can find out more about that
on St. Louis and Tune. Welcometo St. Louis in Tune. And thank you
(00:37):
for joining us for freshperspectives on issues and events
with experts, communityleaders, and everyday people who
make a difference in shapingour society and world. I'm Arnold
Stricker along with co hostMark Langston.
Hey, how.
Come on down, Mark.
I know.
I feel like it's a game show.
(00:57):
We do have those Jeopardy.
Clips too, somewhere. We'vegot it right now you're looking for
right now, but we're not gonna.
Don't push your buttonbuzzers, please.
But please don't pop thosebuttons until an answer is exposed.
No. Sorry. So you will receivesome parting gifts from us. Thank
you so very much. Okay.
Have them in a loop or something.
I know.
I. We just play as many as wecan. I know. Okay. Welcome to the
(01:19):
show, folks.
We're glad that you've joinedus today. We want to thank our sponsor,
Better.
Rate Mortgage, for their support.
You can listen to previousshows@stlintune.com please help us
continue to grow by leaving areview on our website, Apple Podcast,
or your preferred podcastplatform. Our thought to ponder today
is by Michelangelo.
Oh, okay.
(01:41):
The greatest danger for mostof us is not that our aim is too
high and we miss it, but thatit is too low and we reach it.
Ooh, that's very wise.
It is very wise, yes.
Michael.
Now, that can't be said of ourguest today. He's always reaching
for heights, and he achievesthem and he sets new heights. Christopher
(02:04):
Alan Gordon is an author. He'salso an American historian, lecturer,
and museum professional in St.Louis, where he serves as the Director
of Library and Collections forthe Missouri Historical Society.
He's the recipient of the MarkSimmons Writing Award for his research
on the history of the Santa Fetrail and his 2018 book, Fire, Pestilence
and Death. St. Louis, 1849 wonan award of excellence from the American
(02:29):
association for State andLocal History and a silver medal
for regional nonfictionhistory by the Independent Book Publishers
Association. He's in studio totalk about his newest book, Letters
Home from World War II. St.Louis. Christopher, welcome to St.
Louis in Tune.
Thank you for having me.
Wow. This book was. It's agreat read, folks. And it's. I don't
(02:51):
want to say it's a fast read,but it's a fast read because I'm
so enthused with the topic andwhat you have brought out from these
letters. I guess, what was theimpetus for writing the book to begin
with?
There were millions of piecesof mail that were created during
World War II. We had somethinglike 7 million servicemen. Right.
Service people think of thevolume of mail that they are creating.
(03:16):
It's pretty common to haveWorld War II collections in an archive.
And I was having aconversation actually with Josh Stevens
at Rady Press, and I was like,it would be really interesting to
see what's out there and tryto compile them in one place in one
book. And the more I thoughtabout it, I thought, that's a really
good idea. And I bet there aresome really great collections out
(03:38):
there. I just started combingthrough the archives and not just
at my own Missouri HistoricalSociety, but various repositories
around the region and foundsome great stuff.
You go back to the researcharea at the Missouri Historical Society,
and is it like a letterssection or is it. You have to go
back to World War II sectionor how is it cataloged for you?
(03:59):
So archives are generallytasked with creating what's called
a finding aid. So that findingaid is basically an index to a collection.
And when most people donate acollection to an archive, that is,
it becomes a collection thatusually has their name or it has
what that collection refersto. So like The World War II letters
(04:21):
of Bob Smith's World War IIletters or what have you. When you
put all that together, youcreate like a guide. And most archives
will have some kind of post itguide, so it's a little bit easier
to find what you're looking for.
Okay.
So at the Missouri HistoricalSociety, we have. That's what we
have. We have an archivesguide that breaks down our 3,800
(04:43):
collections, archivalcollections, and then you can like
keyword search it and thingslike that. It's not always that easy,
depending on the size of thearchive. But luckily our place is
organized like that, so it wasa good launching point. Also places
like the State HistoricalSociety, Missouri, which is a separate
organization.
And your president of that, correct?
(05:03):
No, the. I'm president of theMissouri association for Museums
and Archives, which is anadvocacy group.
Okay.
No, the State HistoricalSociety of Missouri is a state agency.
Okay.
Missouri historical site isactually privately chartered, but
people get them confused allthe time. But there's great places
like the St. CharlesHistorical Society. A lot of people
don't know that the St. LouisPublic Library has a great manuscript
(05:26):
collection as well. So it wasjust a matter of going through the
weeds in all these places. Wow.
Now, this is a side question.It is related to the book, but it's
not related to the book. Whydo people decide to donate to a collection
to the Historical Society? Andwhat comprises a collection? Do you
go, somebody says, I've gotthis stuff here. Maybe it's photographs
(05:47):
or letters or books orwhatever, or artwork or. What do
you decide? No, that's notreally what we need. You have certain,
like, levels or standards thatyou want. And yes, you turn people
away or you go, yeah, we'dreally like that.
Yeah, all the above, actually.An archive and. Or a museum. They
have what's called acollecting scope. So their mission
identifies with thatcollecting scope. So the Missouri
(06:09):
Historical Society, Primarilywe collect St. Louis regional history
or older Missouri history thatis like the colonial period or pre
Civil War, if it has to dowith eastern Missouri primarily.
So when you're looking at anew collection, that's the type of
criteria you're first lookingfor. How does it fit our scope, our
(06:32):
mission? Why do people donatethis? Luckily, they do it to preserve
history, do it to preservetheir family history. Many people
find it an honor to have thisincluded and add to the story of
our region. When we take thisstuff in, it's not just available
to, say, genealogists. It'savailable to scholars all over the
(06:57):
world, really. And it'samazing what in some of these collections,
what you find. Often you havepeople come in that say, I want to
donate this because I know mykids have no interest in it. I hear
that constantly. And I don'tfind it sad because we get good stuff
in our collection. But I guessfrom a family standpoint, you might
(07:18):
say it's been sitting on.
The shelves, been hollering around.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thething is that. And you see this all
the time in the history world,whether it's archives or museums
or what have you. Yeah,younger people generally don't have
a lot of history interest inhistory until they reach about 40,
and then they get the historybug. And sometimes you think if you
(07:41):
could hang on to it for alittle while longer, your kids probably
will have an interest in it.But that's in a perfect world. But
yeah, it certainly benefitsorganizations like my own, because
then we're able to bring inthese great collections and preserve
them forever. Really, they'renot at risk of being lost, thrown
away, or getting eaten by bugsor what have you.
(08:02):
And especially on this, withthis book, these letters really give
varied insights into whatpeople were thinking, their emotions
during the war, being awayfrom home, et cetera, like that.
How did you cipher throughthese thousands of letters to come
up with the ones that are inthe book?
One of the things that peopledon't often realize with World War
(08:25):
II letters, people watchdocumentaries like the Ken Burns
Civil War or a lot of thegreat movies and documentaries about
World War I, where you hearsoldiers letters being written and
they talk about, oh, I was onthe battlefield at Manassas and I
watched my buddies die and allthis kind of stuff. When you get
(08:46):
to World War II, that doesn'thappen anymore. The military heavily
censored every piece of mail.And so what would happen is that
you would write a letter, youwould address it, toss it in a bag,
your battalion chief orwhatever would collect all that.
They'd throw it on a supplytruck, it would go to a depot somewhere.
(09:07):
Unfortunately, most of thetime they'd take that sack off and
they'd throw it in a warehouseand it would sit there for weeks
or months because the militarydid not have a good postal or logistical
plan for a long time. Butanyway, at some point, a military
censor, sometimes it was your,say, your CO or something, but a
military censor would gothrough your letter and if they saw
(09:30):
something that did not fit thecriteria, they would either redact
it, they'd put heavy black penover it or whatever, or sometimes
they would actually take anexacto knife and cut out the whole
sentence.
Wow.
So I've seen letters that looklike Swiss cheese because they're
all these little boxes thatare all cut out. But they. And then
(09:51):
on state side, sometimes thosesame kind of rules actually applied
to states home front as well.So say your mom wrote you a letter
and she said, oh, your brotherover at the aircraft factory, he's
on strike. Well, they didn'twant you to say stuff like that.
Yeah.
So they would send it back toyour mom and say, rewrite this and
(10:11):
take this out. Or sometimesthey would redact those too.
Yeah, they opened all theletters, read them all. And yes,
I know some of the lettersthey self. They put parentheses where
they were. Yeah, they did iton their own.
They could say things. You hadto keep it as general as possible
if you were going to say whereyou were. So you could say, I'm somewhere
in the Pacific. What does thatmean? That's what, 200,000 mile or
(10:35):
200 million miles or whateverit is. You could say somewhere in
the Pacific, you could saysomewhere in Italy or somewhere in
France after D Day or afterthe invasions and things like that.
But yeah, they. And theydidn't want you to talk about the
weather. They were afraid thateven mentioned, like rain, that the
Germans or the Japanese orwhatever could guess where you were
based on the rain weatherpatterns. Again, you were not supposed
(10:58):
to talk about any kind ofmovement or casualties or anything
like that. So when I would gothrough and pick out these letters,
I'm really looking for theletters where the writers were articulate
enough, had the discretion to.They knew how to maneuver, and basically.
Say they self censored.
(11:19):
They self censored, but itstill expressed their feelings or
still talk about things, butin a very general, encoded way, cryptic
way, whatever you want to say.And some people had that. Some people
had that ability, others notso much. I read a lot of letters
that were like, hi, mom, howare you? I am fine. How's Grandma?
(11:41):
The end. Love, Bob. That's it.
You must have gone through alot of letters just for the book.
How many are in the book?
There's 28 in the book.
And how many did you gothrough to get to those 28?
Oh, gosh, I don't know.Hundreds, probably hundreds. Yeah.
That sounds like a daunting task.
Yeah, but it's really veryinteresting. And. And I had the same
(12:03):
situation happen when I waswriting my first book, Fire, Pestilence
and Death, about the choleraepidemic here in St. Louis. Is you
find these collections and youstart reading these stories and you
develop an emotionalconnection to this person. And then
it's horrible when you findout that they didn't make it or something
like that. It's just. It'sjust as bad 80 years later. Yeah,
(12:27):
but. But certainlyinteresting. And there's one kid
in. In particular that I. Hisname was John Washington. He was
an African American privateand he was assigned to work in like
an ammunitions depot over inItaly. He saw a lot of what was going
on over there and he talkedin. But he was writing these great
(12:48):
letters home to his mother,trying to reassure her, I'm okay.
Don't worry about me. Hewrites this, and this is included
in the book. A great letter,just like a parody. It's hilarious.
He's talking about the food.He said, oh, the cooks over here
are very religious. They makeburnt offerings every day. You know,
things like that. It's greatstuff. But he was madly in love with
(13:13):
this Girl back home who wasn'tgiving him the time of day anymore.
Apparently his friends hadwritten to him, him and said, she
has no interest in youanymore. So he had a little diary
that we have in the archivesat the Missouri Historical Society
now. And he's pouring out hisheart. Oh, I miss her so bad. And
this kind of stuff, but I knowshe doesn't have any. Wants anything
to do with me type of thing.So you read that kind of stuff, too.
(13:36):
And it really. But he made ithome and he eventually had a good
career and he had a bigfamily. So it had a happy ending.
Yeah, it had a happy ending.
Did those diaries. Did otherpeople have diaries to support the
letters or give you a littlebit more background information about
what was going on?
On rare occasions, I wouldfind those. Yeah. Another thing that
(13:57):
you see in these letters isyou get a hint of what's going to
happen in the future with someof these individuals. And in particular,
like, talk about how there wassuch a social movement, so many social
movements that come out of thewar. And one is definitely the woman's.
The women's movement. Andthere's two collections in particular.
One is Adela Schar, who was aservice pilot, a ferry service pilot.
(14:20):
And then Jean Schwarting. GeneSchwarting Anderson, later, she was
a wave. And they're bothtalking about how they're as women,
how they're experiencing adifferent war, basically different
situation. Jean Schwarting wasparticularly funny because she is
(14:43):
going through officer trainingin Massachusetts. And her letters
talk about how they're justtraining these women to do things
that we just, you know, wechuckle at now. It's like how to
change a light bulb, becausethat was a man's duty. And these
letters, oh, we had to get aladder and climb up on the ladder
and unscrew the light bulb. Welaugh at that today, but that was
(15:05):
considered a man's duty athome. But they were having them do
much more challenging things.They had to climb up on the roof
one day. It was like a firedrill type of thing. And I named
the actual chapter after thatline in the letter. She says, a lot
of mothers would get gray ifthey could see their daughters flying
(15:27):
around here in the Navy way.And that was that one particular
letter about how they wereclimbing up on the ladder to get
on the roof and stuff. And shesaid, yeah, the mothers knew that
their daughters were doing allthis, what would consider be manly
things and so forth, that theywould be having a heart attack.
Wow, it's crazy.
Oh, yeah.
(15:48):
That's amazing.
This is Arnold Stricker withMark Langston of St. Louis and Tomb.
We're talking to ChristopherAlan Gordon. He's the author of his
new book, Letters Home FromWorld War II, St. Louis, Messages
of Hope and Heartbreak fromthe Front Lines. Christopher, something
I think that I reallyappreciated about your book is the
other research that you wentin to describe a little bit about
that maybe area thatparticular person was going to be
(16:11):
in. The other thing thatreally stood out to me was when speaking
about the women, when thewomen started the Rosie the Riveter
started getting involved withwork that was being done to produce
airplanes or tanks orammunition that also the disabled
were involved. And then theywere thought of, yeah, you really
can do this. And so there waslike, this, I don't want to say a
great awakening, but there wasthis awakening with the. The military
(16:35):
and with providers of thingsfor the military that, wow, disabled
people can really do somethings in their wheelhouse.
Yeah, that's probably was themost surprising, revealing thing
for me. I had no idea. So yousee the roots of the disability movement,
and there's. There's thisarticle in the. I think it was in
the Globe Democrat here in St.Louis, and they're talking about
(16:59):
there's such a need for labor,and they took a chance and they hired
these individuals thatprobably wouldn't have a job otherwise.
And they've really proventhemselves they can do this work,
and that's great for them. Butit's also a great example of how
it's a testament to the factthat when our servicemen come back
(17:20):
and they may be missing an armor a leg or whatever, that they can
still be productive members ofsociety. And so that was very revealing
for me. I was like, wow, neverhad even considered that. But, yeah,
that's again, one of thosesocial movements that the women's
movement and of course, thecivil rights movement was already
underway, but Certainly WorldWar II gives it a big boost. These
(17:43):
guys, like the Tuskegee Airmenand all these other various guys
that are going through, like,officer training and are stationed
throughout the world anddemanding equal treatment, and when
they come out, they're goingto be involved in that civil rights
movement going into the 50sand 60s.
And wasn't it a group ofAfrican American women who got the
(18:05):
postal system altogether inEngland and got the backlog up to
date and really was themovement for getting all the mail?
Yeah. So the six Triple eightBattalion, which nowadays is getting
a lot of attention, luckily,happily, because for 80 years, basically
(18:25):
70, 80 years they've beenignored when they did a monumental
job. As I. As I mentioned, youhad all these servicemen mailing
letters home. They weregetting thrown in warehouses because
the military just did not havethe logistics to handle the mail.
So the interesting thing aboutthat, the irony of that is that the.
(18:47):
During the whole. During thewhole war, they understood the importance
of the morale of mail. You'dthink that they would have given
more thought to postalbattalions and getting all this process,
but they did not. So therewere warehouses in England, these
old rickety warehouses, forthe most part, where this mail was
(19:08):
just accumulating by themillions bags and bags of it. So
finally, they tasked the 688thCentral Postal Directory Battalion,
made up entirely of AfricanAmerican women. A number of them
were from here in St. Louis.The battalion reached about. I think
it was 854 women by the end ofthe end of the war. But they were
(19:34):
trained here in the US andthen they were sent to England and
they were told to sort outthis millions and millions of pieces
of mail that had accumulated.And they get in there, and sadly,
there was very little justicefor these women because they were
being treated crappily anywaybecause of who they were. But they
(19:54):
get there and there's like,pigeon poop all over these bags and
rats are eating it and allthis kind of stuff. And they're like.
The white officers are like,do something, basically.
Sure.
So they had to start fromscratch. There were something like
7,600 Robert Smiths that wereserving in the military. And mom
(20:15):
and dad would write, RobertSmith, U.S. army, England. And they.
That was it.
Yeah.
So these ladies had to findwhat units these guys were in and
where they were moving and allthis kind of stuff. And Netflix came
out couple years ago with.With a movie about this unit.
Really?
Yeah. It's on Netflix. You canwatch it. It's called Six Triple
(20:36):
Eight. Kerry Washington playsCharity Adams, who is the commander
of the unit. And it goes intodetail about how these women really
thought. Put the thought intohow they could maneuver and find
all these guys. Anyway, theywere given six months to process
this mail, and they did it inthree months.
Good for them.
And it was something like65,000 pieces of mail per shift.
(21:00):
They were going through 24hours a day to get this done. And
by the end of the war, theyhad processed over 17 million pieces
of mail. Wow.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
An unknown group of women whohave not been acknowledged, and African
American women to boot.
Yeah. And morale. Oh, mygoodness. I can't imagine being on
(21:23):
the front and getting a letterfrom home. What that must have done.
Oh, yeah, that was mentionedin. One of the individuals that I
mentioned at the front end ofthe show teasing people was this
individual who was head of theNew York Stock Exchange, was from
St. Louis. He went in as aprivate and he saw, he knew systems,
he developed systems. He wasan executive and he was amazed at
(21:46):
how the army was not preparedor morale at boot camp and was not
good. And then he just notfell into it. But he had his own
skill set which reallypromoted him.
So William McChesney Martinends up being the longest serving
Federal Reserve chairman inAmerican history. He served under
something like fivepresidents. But yes, his beginnings
(22:09):
were here in St. Louis. He's ayoung man, he's 30 years old and
he's president of the New YorkStock Exchange. He's living in New
York city. And in 1940, theUnited States initiates the first
peacetime draft. BecauseRoosevelt and everyone, they know
something's gonna happen. Andthere's actually very little resistance
(22:30):
to that. That was one of theother interesting things I found
about when I did my research,is there was not a whole lot of pushback
on that. People were willingto be conscripted and to serve anyway.
His name is drawn and it wasexpected. A lot of these guys who
had this level of power, I'mgoing to get a deferment or get out
(22:52):
of this one way or another.And Martin said no. He said, I think
that I should act as anexample to all men and start like
everybody else. And he went inas a private, went to Fort Dix, got
assigned to be like a, somekind of flunky clerk in an office.
(23:14):
And the letter that I use forMartin is there was a group that
was formed around1940-1934-1939-1940. They were very
concerned about the state ofAmerican democracy and democracy
in general in the world. Theywere watching Hitler and the Imperial
Japanese and so forth. Andthis guy was friends with Martin
(23:38):
and he writes to Martin, hesays, what do you think? What's your
assessment of the, the moraleof the American serviceman? This
was before the war. This waslike 1940, 1941. And he writes this
multi page report as astockbroker or as a analyst would
do. And he basically istalking about, I've talked with all
(23:59):
these men, all my, all myfellow servicemen, and this is what
I've seen. And he said, one ofthe things is they're willing to
serve, but they have no ideawhat they're fighting for. They have
very little concept ofdemocracy. And he said on top of
that, the military isn't doinga whole lot to encourage it. I don't
(24:19):
see flags around here. I don'tsee military bands. There needs to
be a whole mechanism in placeto educate these guys. And so it's
a fantastic insight into whatthe kind of mental state was at that
time. But of course, December7, 1941, the Pearl harbor attack,
and people really, there wasvery few people that questioned serving.
(24:47):
Right.
And one of the stories I talkabout in the book is over at a municipal
auditorium there was a USOdance every Sunday night. And I was
a little surprised that on thenight of December 7th they went ahead
and had that USO dance. Andthe global Democrat goes over. Reporter
(25:07):
from the Democrat goes overand he's interviewing these guys
that are already in theservice and they're saying, we expected
this to happen, but we got toget it done. We're here to serve
and we got to get it done. Andit's a job to do and we're going
to do it. So, yeah, it'spretty interesting the how there
was just very few people thatwere questioning serving at that
(25:32):
time.
Right.
Yeah.
This is Arnold Stricker withMark Langston of St. Louis in Tune.
We are talking to ChristopherAllen Gordon, author of his newest
his latest book, Letters Homefrom World War II St. Louis. We're
going to take a brief breakand we'll be right back.
Don't go away.
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and equal housing lender.
Welcome back to St. Louis in Tune.
This is Arnold's Tricker withMark Langston.
Mark is spinning in his chair.He loves the music theme so much.
(27:05):
Just moving around. Here wegot Christopher Alan Gordon, author
and director of the Librariesand Collections at the Missouri Historical
Society, here in studio totalk about letters home from World
War II. St. Louis. Messages ofhope and heartbreak from the front
line. Speaking of Pearl harborgoes to the first Missouri Missourian
(27:26):
who was killed in the battle.And his name is widely known in Missouri,
especially in westernMissouri. And I'll let you take it
from there.
Yeah. Anyone that is familiarwith military bases in Missouri and
has ever traveled down eitherHighway 70 or Highway 50 towards
Kansas City will have passedWhiteman Air Force Base, which was
(27:47):
originally called SedaliaAirfield, but it was renamed in the
honor of George Whiteman, whowas the first Missourian killed in
Pearl Harbor.
Never knew that.
Never knew that. Yeah, Ididn't either.
These are the kind of things you.
Find out in the book. And alsolike Anheuser Busch was making. What
did I say they were making?
(28:08):
The diesel engine.
Diesel engines.
Yeah.
On the sly.
Missouri had St. Louis area.Do we make a lot of things for the
war? I thought we did.
Oh, yeah. And I know evenbefore the war.
I know out of 70 andGoodfellow, there used to be an armory
there. I think they just.
Ammunition plant.
Yeah. That they just toredown. And that was, I believe, from
World War II.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah. Those of you whoremember your high school history,
(28:31):
college history will rememberthe Lend Lease program, which was.
There was a lot of pushback.People remembered World War I. They
didn't really want the US tobe involved in any aspect of the
war, whether it was in Europeor Asia. They didn't really think.
Honestly, they didn't reallythink too much of Asia at all. They
were worried about Hitler. Andthen Roosevelt luckily realized that
(28:57):
our allies like Britain werenot going to hold out if we did nothing.
And so he pushed Congress topass the Lend Lease program, which
was a way to get around thatneutrality. You could send our allies
arms and supplies and thingslike that, but we weren't directly
involved in the conflict. Inorder to supply them with all that
(29:18):
armor and defensivecapabilities, you have to build it.
And corporations like CurtissWright Aircraft and Douglas Aircraft
and things like that, theybegin upping production. And those
plants were right here in St.Louis for Curtis Wright and then
Douglas, and they're buildingtransport planes and bombers before
(29:40):
the war here and constantlyadding on to these facilities, which
was this huge economic boostfor a city that had been hit by the
Great Depression. Oh, yeah,you read These articles say 5,000
jobs will be produced by thisand then we're adding on 8,000 more
(30:01):
jobs will be produced and soforth. And even before the war, there's
people are migrating to St.Louis to take these jobs, which of
course will also have longterm implications, but. And then
they build Western CartridgeCompany and then American Car and
Foundry, which was. They maderailroad cars. They would eventually,
(30:23):
after the war began, theywould switch to tank production and
landing craft production andthings like that. Wow. All these
companies are expanding.They're switching over to defense
contracts and creating justthousands of jobs all across the
St. Louis region. American Carand Foundry had two plants, actually
(30:43):
three plants, two in the city.They had one over in Granite City,
Illinois, and then they hadanother in St. Charles. They would
produce light tanks and latersome heavy tanks. But all these landing
craft that you see like in Dday and Iwo Jima and things like
that, a lot of those wereproduced right here.
Oh, that's crazy. How long didit take you to write this book? From
(31:09):
inception of talking at Reedyand then boom, we're done.
Believe it or not, a year.
Wow, that's fast.
Yeah. The first book I wrotetook much longer. Having one under
my belt was a little bit. Itmade it a little bit easier. But
yeah. Yeah, I had a year to crank.
It out and how many hours a day?
(31:31):
Oh, I don't know. Whenever Icould squeeze it. I have a day job
too. Yeah.
Come home from work and gonnawork on the book. You just can't.
You have to consistently dosomething. You just can't put it
aside for a week or two. Andwhere was I? What was I doing here?
I think picking the lettersthat you wanted is what a challenge.
(31:51):
That tough thing.
Yeah. Are you a speed reader?
Oh, no, I don't know. I'm nota slow reader. But I also have. I
also have an advantage becausebeing in the museum and archives
fields, I have connection. Ihad people that were, you know.
I could say this stack is agood stack.
Yeah. I can recommend thiscollection or that collection. So
(32:12):
that certainly makes my jobeasier. And. And it's great when
you're. Whether you're aprofessional historian like myself,
or a genealogy or whatever,genealogist or whatever, to be able
to actually talk to anarchivist in one of these places.
And that's where you get themost insight.
I appreciate getting it alllike the funnel effect where you
get it all together and we getit into a wonderful book like this.
(32:35):
Letters from Letters Home fromWorld War II. I think that's great
that you've done.
The hard work for us was theconcept to print the letter, read
the letter, talk about alittle bit about where that person
was, what they were goingthrough, their connection to St.
Louis. And also, I like thatyou followed up and told us what
happened to that person.
(32:56):
Yeah, yeah, I would. Again,going back to the model of my first
book, I love telling thesestories from beginning to end. The
other thing, there's threethings I look for. One is using primary
sources, like the history isbest told through the eyes of the
person who was actuallywitnessing it. Eye, Witnessing it,
experiencing it. So you getthat insight, you get that emotion.
(33:19):
The second thing is puttingeverything in context. And that's
what I wanted to do in thisbook too. I don't just talk about
the letters. I'm talking aboutwhat's going on in St. Louis at that
time. Because it's all one bigstory, right? For what's going on
on the battlefield. And I amnot a. First of all, I'm not a military
historian and I am not a 20thcentury historian. I'm a 19th century
(33:40):
guy. So this was a learningexperience for me too. I saw, I grew
up watching all those greatWorld War II movies and I thought,
yeah, I know all about WorldWar II.
Sure you do.
No, I don't know anythingabout it. When you really start digging
into it, it's prettyfascinating and it's amazing. It's
such. There are just volumesand volumes have written about World
(34:01):
War II. And one of theinteresting things someone was asking
me about this is so much of itis from the perspective of the leaders,
the generals like WinstonChurchill and all that is certainly
fascinating. But these are theguys that were actually fighting.
The guys I'm talking about theletters home. They're the ones on
(34:21):
the ground. And there areclear instances in this book where,
where individuals wereemotionally overwhelmed. That PTSD
comes out of this for sure. Ihave a chapter about two brothers
who certainly were sufferingfrom PTSD and had very long term
consequences for them. And so,yeah, it was a learning experience
(34:46):
for me, but it was also. Youreally get the depth of it by looking
at these letters.
And you've got some upcomingbook signings. Last night you were
at the U City Public Library.
Yeah, that was great.
And you've got. So write thesedown, folks. But we'll also, if you're
driving, don't write it down.We'll put this on the podcast page.
Saturday, November 8th atBarnes Noble, West County Mall. That's
(35:07):
from 1 o' clock to 2 o' clockon Monday, November 10th, at the
Pacific Branch Scenic RegionalLibrary in Pacific, Missouri. That's
6 to 7pm and on November 15,Saturday from 1 to 3pm at the Belle
Fountain or BellefontaineCemetery, however you want to say
it, at Hotchkiss Chapel,November 19th in St. Charles at the
(35:29):
Kathryn Linneman branch. Andthen you go all the way to May 26
at the Warrenton Branchlibrary. Or if you're from Warrenton,
it's Warrenton. And you can goout and get your book signed and
listen to what Christopher hasto say about the book.
Now you're going to be at achapel at the cemetery. Is that what
(35:50):
you said?
Yeah, yeah.
That's different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Belle Fountain is a greatplace. And I actually the final resting
place for at William McChesneyMartin once again.
Oh, and lots of other famousSt. Louis.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. We couldprobably do a show on St. Louis cemeteries.
Oh, they're fascinating.
(36:10):
Yeah.
I think there's. I thinkthere's a Reedy press book out on.
Is there?
Yeah, if there isn't, therewill be.
Yeah.
There actually is one.
Yeah.
On Bell Fountain.
Yeah. It's a fascinating.
So how's response been to the book?
Good. Very good. Sellingbooks, which is always good.
I really enjoyed. I'm not allthe way through. I've. I really enjoy
what I've read so far. Andyou've got some pictures which for
(36:33):
some of the folks who like tosee some pictures about some of the
individuals in there, whichmakes it a little more personal.
There was a story in here Iwas mentioning to Christopher about
a football coach here in St.Louis who was at McKinley and Roosevelt
High School, who happened tobe my father's football coach.
Okay.
And was found out a little bitabout him which I never knew. So
that was interesting. Soexcellent job.
(36:55):
I think the history of WorldWar II is something we should preserve
and be aware of. I think someof this gets lost, I'm afraid.
Absolutely.
It shouldn't be. You shouldremember it. Yep. Give us a little
pat for coming in.
Thank you. Great talking with you.
We've been talking toChristopher Allen Gordon, author.
He's also director of libraryand collections for the Missouri
(37:17):
Historical Society. And youwant to get his book, folks? It's
on Amazon or you can go toreedypress.com Letters home from
World War II of St. Louis.Messages of hope and heartbreak from
the front lines.
All right.
Now you can stick around for alittle bit. We'll have a couple things
to do, and then we'll be done.If that's all right with you.
Yeah, sounds good.
You can participate in those things.
(37:38):
Excellent.
We'll be right back.
Okay.
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you really need to turn thatperfect house into your dream home
is a better mortgage. AtBetter Rate Mortgage, we open the
door to so much more. Whetheryou're purchasing your first home
(37:59):
or taking cash out to makeyour dream home even dreamier, our
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how. Call sean directly at314-375-3293 or online at Better.
Remember, at Better RateMortgage, a better rate is just the
beginning. Betterratemortgage.com.
(38:31):
Welcome back to St. Louis inTune. This is Arnold Stricker with
Mark Langston. And you want toget the book Letters Home from World
War II St. Louis. It's byChristopher Allen Gordon, available
at Reedy Press, or you can goto Amazon. Check the podcast page@stlintune.com
when we post that and we'llhave a link directing you to either
of those sources.
I like the tagline. Messagesof hope and heartbreak from the front
(38:56):
lines.
Yes.
Yeah, that's what it is.
Both. Both were going on.
Yep, they sure were.
So our mental floss for theday. Mark, this is very interesting,
and it is St. Louis related.Did you know that the Rockettes,
the Radio City Rockettes, werefirst started formed in St. Louis
back in 1925, 100 years old,the Rockettes. And they started right
(39:17):
here in the Gateway City orthe Mound City.
Oh, they don't look that old.
No. And I'm surprised, youknow, that they're able to kick up
in the air 160 times per show.Wow. Like, what in the world? They
started with just 16 members.They're the longest running precision
(39:40):
dance company in the United States.
Wow. Good for them.
They were known as the Rockets.
What's that?
They were first known as the Rocket.
The Rockets.
See, we have a historian here.He's gonna.
And they started with just 16 members.
Back then, and now they havehow many?
84 women have trained. So Idon't know exactly how many they
have on their little kicking crew.
(40:02):
That's crazy. That's crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what days of the day do youhave, Mark?
This one is probably notnothing new for you, Arnold. National
Men Make Dinner Day.
That's right.
You make dinner.
I make dinner. Yes.
I don't. My son Matthew, myyoungest, he's making dinner now.
Good for him.
Yeah, he's that kind of thing.National Nacho Day. Do you like nachos?
(40:24):
Yeah. No, not bad. You likethem, Christopher?
Oh, yeah.
Let's see. International StoutDay. You need to go home and have
a. Have some stout.
A stout beer or a stout Nachos.
That sounds pretty.
Chocolate stout cake.
Yeah. With nachos. I'm not.National Basketball Day for those.
Basketball's just gettingstarted up. I guess they. They work
(40:46):
this out. So when basketball starts.
Good idea, huh?
Oh, National Saxophone Day.
Okay.
Didn't you play the saxophone?
I did on this. I'm a clarinetplayer by trade, but yes, I played
saxophone. Alto sax and tenor.
Yeah. National Team ManagerDay. That's for Christopher. It's
a team manager. Let's see. Idon't. Not much more actually going
(41:10):
on here.
Okay.
Yeah, that's about. That'senough. Maybe I could find more.
I'm sure for all of those ofyou who work in an office. And maybe
there's one bathroom or maybethere's a couple. I just replaced
the can of air freshener inthe office bathroom with an air horn.
And now we wait.
(41:32):
Love it. That's a great idea.Isn't that a good idea?
I like that. Yeah, that's great.
Being cremated is my last hopefor a smoking hot body.
That's my wife's smoking hot.
Robin Hood was hospitalizedrecently. Doctors think he has a
case of meningitis.
(41:53):
Wow. It's dangerous. You'regonna start World War three is what
you.
Yes.
You're old when you'reentering your birth year online and
have to spin that thing likeyou're on Wheel of Fortun.
Oh, man.
I've not lost my mind. Half ofit just wandered off and the other
(42:14):
half went looking for it. Andyesterday I helped my neighbor hang
a 75 inch television that hebought from some guy on the street.
When he turned it on, it wasthe menu from kfc.
I like that. There it is.
(42:37):
Back to your co workers atwork. You talked about the bathroom
thing. Here are some nicknamesfor lazy co workers. Cordless only
works for two hours. ET alwayswants to go home. KitKat always taking
a break. Muffler always exhausted.
(43:01):
Wow. Wow.
Seaweed just floats around all day.
Oh, yeah, I know that for sure.
I can't even. I can't see whatI'm looking at right now. My eyes
are squishing so much. Oh, mygosh. Gotta take my glasses off.
All right.
Now you can't see.
Sensor light only works ifsomeone walk walks past. And I love
(43:26):
this one wheelbarrow onlyworks when pushed. Maybe you know,
some folks like that at work.
Folks?
Those are their names. Okay.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Goodness. And we'll close withthis one.
What?
There's more.
Oh. When you're dead, youdon't know you're dead. The pain
is felt by others. The samething happens when you're stupid.
(43:47):
Thank you. Take a bow for thatone. That is absolutely.
Oh, mercy, folks. Mercy. Soglad that you joined us today. That's
all for this hour. Thank youfor listening. If you've enjoyed
this episode, wipe your eyesjust like I am. If you've enjoyed
this episode, you can listento to additional shows@stluntune.com.
consider leaving a review onour website, Apple Podcast, Podchaser,
(44:10):
or your preferred podcastplatform. Your feedback helps us
reach more listeners andcontinue to grow. Thanks to Bob Bertha
Sell for our theme music, oursponsor, Better Rate Mortgage, our
guest, Christopher Alan Gordonand co host, Mark Langston. And folks,
we thank you for being a partof our community of curious minds.
St Lucie in tune is aproduction of Motif Media Group and
the US Radio Network.Remember, keep seeking, keep learning,
(44:31):
walk worthy, and let yourlight shine for Saint Lucian Tune.
I'm Arnold Stricker.
(45:01):
Sam.
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