Preserving History While Innovating the Future: Trivers Architecture's 50-Year Anniversary

Trivers Architecture has carved a niche in the architectural landscape by emphasizing the importance of adaptive reuse and historic preservation. Celebrating 50 years in the business, Joe Brinkmann, Joel Fuoss, and Amy Gilbertson sat down with us to share their philosophy on creating buildings that stand the test of time. The conversation kicks off with what adaptive reuse actually means, with Joel explaining it as the art of taking a structure originally built for one purpose and reimagining it for another—think turning an old factory into chic lofts or a historic courthouse into a vibrant community hub.

This episode isn’t just about the mechanics of architecture; it’s about the heart behind it. The trio discusses how their firm started with a focus on historic renovations during a time when many buildings were left to decay. Joe reminisces about the firm’s roots and how they have evolved into a leader in not only preserving St. Louis’s architectural heritage but also actively contributing to the city’s revitalization efforts. With projects like the Gateway Arch Museum and various historic buildings under their belt, the conversation moves into the challenges and triumphs of working on such significant structures, including the intricate dance of balancing modern needs with historical integrity.

As we wrap up, the conversation shifts to the future of architecture, touching on sustainability and the growing need for environmentally-conscious design. Amy emphasizes the importance of listening to clients and the community, ensuring that each project reflects the values and needs of those it serves. The firm’s approach is a testament to the idea that architecture is not just about buildings; it’s about creating spaces that foster connection, creativity, and a sense of belonging. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in how architecture shapes our environment and community—so grab your earbuds and join us for an enlightening conversation!

[00:00] Introduction and Welcome

[00:35] Meet the Hosts and Guests

[01:03] Sponsor Acknowledgment and Thought to Ponder

[02:03] Introduction to Trivers Architecture

[02:30] Understanding Adaptive Reuse

[03:10] The Victor Building Case Study

[04:10] Challenges and Evolution of Trivers Architecture

[05:44] Notable Projects by Trivers Architecture

[07:25] Historic Renovation and Tax Credit Programs

[08:52] Balancing Modernization and Preservation

[09:45] Client Collaboration and Project Examples

[20:39] The Value of Historic Buildings

[22:32] Break and Sponsor Message

[24:43] Architectural Education and Local Influence

[26:03] Favorite Buildings in St. Louis

[26:58] Innovative Building Design

[27:50] Historic Structures in St. Louis

[29:02] Tower Grove Park's Victorian Pavilions

[30:07] Appreciation for Craftsmanship

[30:56] Leveraging Diverse Perspectives in Architecture

[34:40] Sustainability in Architecture

[38:21] Future of Architecture

[44:26] Advice for Aspiring Architects

[50:16] Closing Remarks and Fun Facts

Takeaways:

• Trivers Architecture has been a trailblazer in historic renovation and adaptive reuse for over 50 years, showing that old buildings can have a new life.
• Our guests Joe Brinkmann, Joel Fuoss, and Amy Gilbertson shared their insights on how they balance modern needs with preserving historical integrity in architecture.
• The firm emphasizes that belief in a vision can lead to transformative projects, much like a self-fulfilling prophecy in architecture.
• Adaptive reuse is all about taking structures meant for one purpose and creatively bending them to meet today's community needs, keeping history alive in a modern context.
• They discussed the importance of listening to clients and stakeholders, understanding their deeper needs to truly create...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
How do you create a work oflasting, positive consequence? For
50 years, Trivers Architecturehas been doing that. We're going
to talk more about that on St.Louis in June. Welcome to St. Louis

(00:24):
in Tune and thank you forjoining us for fresh perspectives
on issues and events withexperts, community leaders and everyday
people who make a differencein shaping our society and world.
I'm Arnold Stricker along withco host Mark Langston.
Hi, Arnold.
How you doing, Mark?
I'm, I'm, I'm doing well,thank you. I'm doing all right. How
about yourself?
I'm doing well. I'm trying todesign and build our show today.

(00:49):
In a way.
Build it. Okay.
Yes. That really amplifies theguests that we have on the program.
I'm excited about it. We havethree guests today.
Yes, we do, we do. We're gladthat you've joined us today, folks.
We want to thank our sponsor,Better Rate Mortgage for their support
of the show. You can listen toprevious [e-mail] please
help us continue to grow byleaving a review on our website,

(01:12):
Apple Podcast or yourpreferred podcast platform. Our thought
to ponder today, Mark, this isa really good one and you have to
pay attention because youcould get your brain wrapped around
this and go, huh? The thingalways happens that you really believe
in and the belief in a thingmakes it happen. I'll repeat that
again. The thing alwayshappens that you really believe in

(01:36):
and the belief in a thingmakes it happen.
It's almost like visualizing agoal, isn't it?
Yes.
Is that right?
If you don't have something inmind and you're really pursuing it
and you really believe in it,then that actually will occur. I
want to say self fulfilledprophecy. Who do you think said that?
Let's see. Oprah Winfrey.
No, our guests will jump outof their seats. Frank Lloyd Wright.

(01:58):
Oh, now you're talking.
And our guests are JoeBrinkman, Joel Fuoss, Amy Gilbertson.
And they are from TriversArchitecture. And welcome all of
you to St. Louis and Tim.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You guys have been going nowfor 50 years. July 1st you celebrated
your 50th anniversary and you,I guess the firm had an early focus

(02:23):
on historic renovation andadaptive reuse. And then you grew
into ground up construction.So I guess my first question, and
you guys just bounce back andforth, explain to people what adaptive
review reuse is. I think theyunderstand historic renovation, but
what's adaptive reuse?
They're all looking at each other.

(02:44):
Anybody? Let's draw stridesfrom this.
All Right. I can go first.Adaptive reuse is a way of describing
taking a building that wasbuilt for one purpose and then using
it for a different purposethat serves modern needs for whatever
a community might be needing today.
That's the short version, verysimilar to. The building that you

(03:05):
now occupy as an architecturalfirm. And so describe what I know
as the Butler BrothersBuilding, which is now the Victoria.
The Victor, as it's now known,was constructed in 1907, finished
1907, as the butler BrothersWholesale Warehouse. We always talk
about it as the Costco, theAmazon of the day, where goods were

(03:29):
brought in from Union Station,were brought into the warehouse.
Wholesalers could sell, pickup what they wanted to feature in
their stores or buy there onthe floor, and then it was shipped
elsewhere in the country.Most, most, mostly west of St. Louis
as that changed over over theyears. And until 1957, it was then

(03:53):
closed and used for otheruses, but really remained. I didn't
say vacant. I would say morestagnant. Stagnant, Hibernation maybe
the word. For about 40 yearsuntil our client got ahold of it
and asked us to look at it fordifferent use.
So the firm got started byAndy Trevers, and that's when everything

(04:15):
was moving out of the city.The city was becoming. I'll use the
word stagnant. At the time, alot of buildings were vacated on
Garment Row and which are now.Many of them are now loft buildings,
one that I live in. And sowhat was his goal at the time? He
was like, we can't just letthis architecture just fall.

(04:36):
Yeah, I think that's probablyaccurate. He came to St. Louis to
go to Washington Universityand was witnessing what was happening
not just in St. Louis, but allover the country, with downtowns
in some cases being abandonedand those buildings often not being
repurposed and often beingdemolished. And so that sort of instilled

(04:56):
the passion in him to do whathe could to preserve those cultural
resources and keep them forfuture generations.
That was really before a lotof what I would call historic renovation
subsidies were going on. So itwas pretty much just if somebody
wanted to occupy that buildingor reuse that building, they would
just have to fork over all themoney. It wasn't like they were going

(05:19):
to get any money from thestate or the feds at that time.
Correct.
So what did that develop intothem as he was. Probably because
you've worked at the firmprobably the longest now. What is
it, 20. 20 years?
25 years as of yesterday.
Wow. Well, we should have asilver anniversary how did the. I
don't want to say morphbecause you guys are still doing

(05:40):
a lot of. A lot of historickinds of things. That's matter of
fact, mark some of the notableSt. Louis projects. And I was really
amazed right when I startedreading the list. The Gateway Arch
Museum. Oh, the OldCourthouse, which I haven't been.
I want to go. I saw some ofthe pictures. Wow, this is crazy.
The Post Building, AdamAronson Fine Arts center out of Lamar
Park. Sheldon Concert hall,art galleries, Tar Grove park restorations.

(06:03):
The Old Post Office, numerouslofts. The Airport Copper roof restoration.
Oh, yeah, just like what. Soif you've seen it, folks, it's probably
been Trivers Architecture. Andyou've wondered what in the world.
So what makes TriversArchitecture set apart from other
architectural firms in St.Louis or nationally?
I would say the Andy Triversroots and the historic work and the

(06:28):
adaptive reuse, as Amy wasspeaking about earlier, opened the
door into a very typology,different typologies that we could
get involved with. A historicbuilding can be turned into a numerous
different things. Residentialoffice, galleries, museums, hotels,
you name it. So that allows usto do different types of work and

(06:49):
allows us to explore that indifferent ways because it's housed
in a historic or an existingbuilding. So it allows us to be varied
in the type of work that we'reinvolved with. And it's led us to,
as you mentioned, a myriad ofdifferent avenues that we can pursue.
What are the challenges ofworking with some of these older
buildings? Obviously, otherthan infrastructure, of course, that's

(07:12):
the main thing. There's a lotof exterior, interior go into that.
So people really understandwhy some of these, what I would call
subsidies, actually exist.
Maybe I can start. I was goingto add on to what Joel was saying
too. In terms of our nationalreach with doing historic work. Missouri
has had the tax creditprogram, I think, longer than any

(07:35):
other state, or almost. It'sone of the longest two. So Andy's
passion for doing historicrenovations and adaptive reuse, paired
with Missouri's incentiveprogram, has allowed our firm to
do this work in many caseslonger than a lot of firms throughout
the rest of the country, asother states are picking up tax credit
programs, and now they've gotto comply with the guidelines that

(07:57):
are associated with the taxcredit programs. Our team knows those
standards backwards andforwards. So our clients always want
to modernize the buildings.And a lot of times there's a misconception
that you can't change abuilding if it's historic, if it's
on the national register. Ithas to be as it is. But you can definitely
modernize it. And we know howto do that. So we know how to take
our client's vision for whatthey want to do with a property,

(08:20):
pair it with the guidelines,and come up with a strategy for an
intervention that gets themwhere they need to be.
So when you're talking aboutmodernize, what are most people,
they're not thinking like,we're going to truly change the outside
of the building. You'rechanging the functional use of it.
And a lot of the. Youobviously have to put fire alarm
systems in and.
Sure.

(08:42):
Except the victor didn't havea fire suppression system in it already.
Sprinkler system.
Yeah.
Which was really way ahead ofits time.
It was, it was, yeah.
So modernization has to takeinto account whatever the character
defining features of thebuilding are often the envelope and
what it looks like from theoutside is part of that. But sometimes
on the backside or sideelevations that weren't as important,

(09:05):
you can still make additionsand things like that. But as we were
getting into mid centurybuildings, we're also talking more
about what it felt like to bein the building. So expansive, open
spaces, natural light. So it'sbecoming less about the ornamentation
and craftsmanship and startingto talk about what the feeling was.
So it can be both.

(09:26):
In your process. When you talkto owners or people who want to develop
a building, what's the. Youtalk about a balance being both.
And expand on that a little bit.
Go ahead.
I think as Amy was talkingabout, there's always a trade off

(09:47):
in what you're trying toaccomplish for the success of a project.
And we work with our clientsto really understand what those goals
are and what those needs are.And we like to look at it as not
a compromise. We don't look ata historic structure as a, or an
existing, any existingbuilding as a limiting factor. We
try to see the possibilitiesthat lie within that. So we say,

(10:09):
all right, here's what you.You've got. We don't see that as
limitation. How do we buildupon that and make that something
that can be celebrated orbecome a character defining aspect
of what that building canoffer that particular client. So
it's not. We don't look at itas just a trade off and say, this

(10:29):
can be either nice or not, orit can be expensive or cheap. It's
how do we get the most out ofit for the budget that you have and
to meet your needs. And a lotof times that takes Research, understanding,
listening to really understandwhat a client's looking for, really
understanding what a buildingcan offer you and, and be able to
work with all of those things.And I think to be successful you

(10:54):
have to. You can't look at asa black and white either or it's
an and proposition to take allof that stuff and to make the most
out of it.
So let's put some legs onthat. Let's. And let's use the victor
as the example of that. So theowners, did they do an architectural
search or did they say, hey, Iwant this group because I know what
they've done, they got ahistory of this stuff. And then do

(11:16):
they come, hey, this is myideas of what I want. And I know
you guys are listening tothat, but I'm sure some of the cogs
were turning like, wow, thisbuilding could be X, Y and Z if it
got done.
So their initial contact withus was by recommendation from several
other people in St. Louis.They had already started talking
to contractors, they hadstarted talking to lenders and other

(11:38):
people in town. And our namecame up more than once. So they contacted
us and that's where theconversation started. They had an
idea of what their program wasgoing to be, how many apartment units
and so forth. But on thatbuilding, one of the biggest challenges
was its size. It was too big,honestly. And that was one of the
things that they saw as alimiting factor. But we would have

(12:00):
to be here all day to talkabout how we strategize that and
work through it. And Joel wasresponsible for most of that. But
that, that was the solutionthat had to be arrived at on that
one. How do you take thisenormous building and actually make
it work for what they weretrying to do with their apartment
count and all of that?
Yeah. Which is some of thechallenge of the. What I would call

(12:21):
and Mark would call probablythe old famous bar building.
Railway Exchange.
Railway Exchange. It's a cityblock and it's just this massive
amount of building. What doyou do with something like that?
It's almost too much.
It is. Ye studied that with acouple different organizations and
that is exactly the case. It'shuge. And no one user in this market
is ever going to use thatentire building. So the solutions

(12:44):
are going to have to bepairing up uses, maybe even having
three or four different usesin that building before anybody's
going to come up with asuccessful formula for that one.
Yeah, this Arnold Strickerwith Mark Langston of St. Lucian
Tomb. We're talking to JoeBrinkman Joel Foose and Amy Gilbertson
of the architectural firmtrivers trivers.com, folks. Trivers.com.

(13:06):
and what's probably one of themost challenging projects you guys
have ever done, or maybeyou're still involved in it, or maybe
you don't want to sit?
I'd be happy to. It's also theproject that brought me to the firm,
and it's the Westin Hotel inthe old couples district next to
the ballpark here in St. Louis.
Oh, yeah. Neat building.

(13:26):
Yeah, yeah. I. I saw theconstruction fence going up around
that, saw the Trivers sign andsaid this would be somebody I'd like
to work for after having seenso many buildings get torn down.
So I looked them up and ithappened that they had an opening
and I got hired there andended up at the end of that managing
that project.
Wow, that's great.

(13:47):
It was the combination of fourdistinct historic buildings and connecting
all of those and figuring outall of the challenges and the foundations
were really bad under one ofthem. So we had to fix all of that.
By far, in my mind, the mostchallenging I've been involved with,
but also the most rewarding ina lot of ways.
Absolutely. Joel.

(14:07):
Oh, gosh. I think one of thefortunate aspects is that we get
to work on a lot of differenttypes of difficult projects. We talk
about that maybe we don'treally have an easy project that
we endeavor on and we like itthat way. Yeah, we do. It's hard
work, but it's gratifying. I'mgoing to take a little bit different
turn on this. I've had thefortunate aspect to be able to work

(14:29):
on a lot of different greatprojects. One of those is a new construction
project we did up in NorthCity, the Flance Early Childhood
Center. And while it wasn'tchallenge, it was challenging in
its own way. But it wastearing down a mid 20th century high
rise affordable housingproject and building an early childhood

(14:50):
center in what was the mostimpoverished neighborhood in the
entire state of Missouri atthe time. And 5% of a child's brain
is developed before the age ofearly or 95% is developed before
age 5. And so these kids werejust losing out on these opportunities.
And there was an opportunitythere to design an early childhood
center for 154 kids to changethe trajectory of that neighborhood

(15:13):
and the kids that grew upwithin it. And it's a little different
aspect. I had young childrenat the time, and so that was just
a different avenue of a typeof project that would. It's a long
term change. But we'd like tosee us changing the city in that
part of the neighborhood forthe better.
Amy all right, So I think I'mgoing to go to my first historic
project at Trivers, which wasthe old post office in downtown St.

(15:37):
Louis. So I came to Triversbecause of their work in affordable
housing. I was reallyinterested in that. And then I got
put on this project as anintern, and it completely changed
the trajectory of my careerbecause I fell in love with how you
can modernize historicbuilding. There were a lot of different
stakeholders. WebsterUniversity went in there. I was working

(15:57):
directly with Missouri Courtof Appeals. We had a huge team. I
got to go to all of themeetings where the client team was
trying to persuade legislatorsand the public to get behind this
project. And it was thisreally complicated deal. And I got
to sit in all of thosemeetings and hear how they put it
all together. And then I gotto be the project architect for Missouri

(16:19):
Court of Appeals. So the thirdand fourth floors were my baby for
about three years.
Wow.
And I just fell in love withall the details. And it was so exciting
because we met all of thecourt's security needs and all of
their programmaticrequirements. And we only made one
new opening in the third andfourth floors, which were the most
historic portions of thebuilding. So that challenge of figuring

(16:41):
out what strategy works bestand how can it work for the building
and for the client andbringing all that together was a
really great experience.
Mark. You can really see that,man. It's just this whole process
of communication and listeningis a huge. Which I don't want to
label. I think this is inevery kind of occupation where people,

(17:03):
they don't really listen. Theyjust, I'm going to do my thing. I
know this is what you probablywant because this is what I do or
this is my boilerplate. So I'mjust going to do it that way. Rather
than sitting down and reallygetting people an understanding of
where they're coming from andwhat they want and then offering
some other solutions thatmight even make their thoughts even
rise more.

(17:24):
Is it harder to do newconstruction or rehab? I mean, I
could see it's a 2. I loveseeing an older building repurposed
or rehabbed or that's myterms. But I know sometimes when
I'm working on something, it'sjust tear it out. Just tear it all
out and start better, becauseit's going to be a better and it's

(17:45):
going to last longer. So it'sgot. That's got to be A challenge.
But you were talking aboutworking on foundations. That's a
big undertaking, especiallywith a structure that's there. So
is it more cost effective? I'mnot advocating to tear things down.
Please.
But I'm just curious, is itwhen people go to this. I'm sorry,
this is such a long question.

(18:05):
No, you're fine. Spit it out, Mark.
But when people. I know, it's.I don't know. I just like seeing
the older buildings redone.But sometimes it's just. Is it cost
effective?
I think you have to look ateach project individually. There
are new construction projectsthat I've been involved with that
were incredibly complicated.There were also renovations that

(18:27):
we did that were, quitehonestly, pretty easy. The program
fit and everything worked outokay, and we didn't have some of
the massive challenges.Generally speaking, though, I do
think it's a little bit morecomplicated to take on an adaptive
reuse because you've got todeal with all of the sort of restoration
aspects of it in addition to.And if you're trying, as Amy alluded

(18:47):
to, to stay within theguidelines, if you're getting tax
credits and you need to followthe guidelines that the federal government
has established, then thatadds a whole layer of complexity
also, that can be really hardand sometimes almost impossible to
navigate to put what you'retrying to into that building.
So it's a great commitment, Ithink, by whoever's working on this
project.

(19:07):
My wife and I often talk aboutwhat you just said, Mark. Are all
of these older buildings worthsaving? We've got the Battery Building,
the Streetcar Battery Buildingjust up the street. A wonderful historic
building. It would be reallycool, redeveloped, but who's going
to put money into that? Andit's actually falling apart right
now.
There are some buildings thatare probably beyond their useful

(19:30):
life and in their location andso forth, they need to come down.
That's not to say that wedon't believe that every building
has to be saved, but then youtake buildings like. And this probably
got me into this type of workin the first place. But when I literally
witnessed the implosion of theBouder Building and the Title guarantee
building on 7th streetdowntown to make way for the Gateway

(19:53):
Mall, which then ended up witha building on it anyway. When I watched
those buildings come down thatmorning in, I think it was 1984,
and then walked over to thesite once the dust had settled and
just witnessed that gapinghole in the city, and I thought,
this is crazy. Like, how didanybody justify doing this? And I

(20:16):
would have been 20 no, noteven 20, maybe right at 20 years
old when that happened, Inever forgot that. And I still think
about it all the time. When welook at these buildings lately the
Wainwright's been in the news.And just imagine if those two buildings
were still there on 7th streetand you had the three of those standing
there together. It would havebeen so much more. Oh, yeah, Wonderful.

(20:37):
What? And I think you'retalking about dollars too, but we
should talk about value. So Ihave conversation. I'm having a conversation
with a client now that it's amunicipality and they are working
on restoring their historiccity hall. And it's hard work, but
it's been part of their cityforever and as long as they've been
a city.

(20:58):
And so before you got in the room.
Right.
We're both graduates of thatparticular area. Yeah. So we're very
familiar with that.
And so part of theconversation, we're preparing to
talk to the council and talkabout the value and what does it
say about the community if weinvest in this building that's been
sitting here versus buildsomething new and be left with this

(21:18):
building sitting empty, whichis the same situation we had in University
City. Their City hall annexand Trinity Library building were
sitting empty for a long timewith no planned use. And had they
built new. We talked aboutthis in a lot of the council meetings.
Had they built new, thosebuildings would still be sitting
there empty. When they'reperfectly viable, they're gonna.

(21:39):
There's the policeheadquarters. It's under construction
now. The police will be inthere. We've got a new accessible
entry for the community. We'vesolved the wayfinding and the public
parking. We've added all ofthis to the experience of coming
to City hall. And we'vecreated a use for these buildings
that have been sitting thereempty. So there's a lot of value
there. That's more than dollars.
Is the spotlight still on theroof up there? Is it still there?

(22:02):
It is, yeah.
Yeah. They should turn that ononce in a while just for fun.
They're working on the lift.That's the problem right now. It
doesn't gotcha up anymore.
So. I love that, Bill.
It's a great.
Except the council chambers isvery echoey. It's very. It's like
very hollow. Sounds likeyou're in a bathroom.
Ways to get architecturalacoustic engineers.

(22:23):
Yes, that's handle some ofthat stuff.
Get them in here nowespecially they need to do that in
restaurants, but that'sanother story. We're going to take
a break and we'll be rightback. This is Arnold Stricker with
Mark Langston of St. Louis inTune. Don't go away. This is Arnold

(22:50):
Stricker of St. Louis in tuneon behalf of the Dred Scott Heritage
Foundation. In 1857, the DredScott decision was a major legal
event and catalyst thatcontributed to the Civil War. The
decision declared that DredScott could not be free because he
was not a citizen. The 14thAmendment, also called the Dred Scott
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(23:10):
our country and was intendedto overturn the US Supreme Court
decision on July 9, 1868. TheDred Scott Heritage foundation is
requesting a commemorativestamp to be issued from the US Postal
Service to recognize andremember the heritage of this amendment
by issuing a stamp with thelikeness of the man Dred Scott. But
we need your support and thesupport of thousands of people who

(23:30):
would like to see this happen.To achieve this goal, we ask you
to download, sign and sharethe one page petition with others.
To find the petition, pleasego to dredscottlives.org and click
on the Dred Scott petitiondrive on the right side of the page.
On behalf of the Dred ScottHeritage foundation, this has been
Arnold Stricker of. St. Louisintune as strange as it may sound,

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MLS ID 2401335 and equalhousing. Lender welcome back to St.
Louis in tune. This is ArnoldStricker with Mark Langston. We're
talking to Joe Brinkman, JoelFuoss, Amy Gilbertson of Trivers
architecture firm trivers.comt r I v e r s trivers.com and I was

(24:56):
prompting them with somequestions. Mark during the Break.
I have a crazy question beforewe go any further.
Okay.
My dad was an architect. Heworked at Bank Building Corporation.
But the big question alwaysis, where'd you go to school? Did
you go to Washington U or didyou go to ku? That's what I was.
Good for you. I'm glad to hear that.

(25:16):
That is true for mostarchitects in St. Louis. I did go
to Washington University andso did Joel.
Then my dad went to Wash U too.
I have an undergrad fromUniversity of Illinois and then a
master's from washu.
Yeah, there's quite acompetition between washu for some
reason, I don't get it.
But whatever that is.
And I had a strange path fromIllinois State University as a business

(25:41):
major to Southern IllinoisCartmandale. I transferred into architecture,
and then I went to Universityof Michigan for grad school.
Well, good for you. I thinkit's interesting that there's such
a great architectural schoolhere in St. Louis and that a lot
of the architects are workingin St. Louis, doing stuff here. So
I think that's neat. That's.That's all I had, arnold.
Yeah, good. St. Louis is knownfor great architecture. I know there's

(26:02):
a lot of older cities thathave wonderful architecture, but
we just seem to have thisunbelievable kind of of buildings
that have all this wonderfulbrickwork, all this wonderful stone
facade. What's one of yourfavorite buildings just to look at
here in St. Louis?
Oh, you rephrase that a littlefrom what you said while we were
taking a break to look at.
Okay, so give me the answer to both.

(26:26):
For me, my favorite to look atis the Wainwright building.
Okay.
It really understand what wasgoing on there and look at that building
from a distance and payattention to the geometry and the
way it's arranged andorganized. It's incredible. And especially
when you put it in the timethat it was built, and then as you
get closer to it and see theamount of detail on it and everything

(26:46):
that's going on with theterracotta facade and all that, it's
exquisite. It's just incredible.
Not the first skyscraper inthe country, is that.
Arguably, yes. There are otherpeople who will say other buildings
and so forth, but it reallywas the first one where the exterior
of it was not the structuralelement and the structure resides
within that. So the exteriorcan be organized and thought of differently.

(27:10):
And they had the heating andair conditioning at the top. You
can see the holes, I think, inthe facade of it. Is that to cool
it off up there? Is that. Am Ieven close?
Those are just ornamentation,as far as I know. And I don't think
they had a function back then,but they may have. It doesn't exist
now, but I'm not aware ofthat. I think those were always windows,
the round ones, portholes thatare at the top.

(27:31):
Okay. I had heard it was air,not air conditioned, but heating
or something, some kind ofventing for. However they did their
H Vac back then for that.
Or didn't.
Or didn't.
Yeah, well, there's anotherstory about that.
Oh, gosh, I don't know. Idon't think I can narrow it down.
This goes to maybe Mark'squestion about the historic, question
about keeping buildings. And Ijust think the collection of historic

(27:54):
structures we have here in St.Louis is a wonderful asset of the
city that's honestly underleveraged. Joe mentioned tearing
down the other buildingsaround the Wainwright. Fortunately,
we still have the Wainwright,and there's others around it that
we still have. But we've lostso much. But we have still so much,
you know, around thisneighborhood that's intact of homes
and two families and fourfamilies. Just being around the historic

(28:18):
fabric of the city. You go toother cities, they don't have it.
And that is something that weneed to leverage as a city and as
a region to reach out to otherareas and say, look at what we've
got. This is something that'simportant, and people respond well
to it. They look at thatstuff. They look at that historic
detailing and ornamentationand marvel at it. And it's beautiful.

(28:40):
And we don't construct likethat anymore, and nor should we,
and we should be able tocomplement with that. But it is here,
and we should really retain asmuch of that as what we've got. And
just being surrounded by thatin a city that has so much to offer
is really a wonderful aspectof what we have here architecturally.
Amy.
All right, I'm going to sayone that maybe you wouldn't be thinking

(29:02):
of, but Tower Grove park,their collection, I don't know if
you know this. It's a NationalHistoric Landmark park. It's in my
neighborhood, so I've alwaysbeen near it, and my kids have grown
up there, learned to ridetheir bikes there. I run there with
my friends regularly still.But they have the greatest collection
of Victorian pavilionsanywhere in the world, and we've

(29:23):
been fortunate to start therestoration process for some of those.
So when you said, what's yourfavorite one to look at? I love looking
at those. And even though I'vebeen Looking at them for 20 years
now that we're working on themand restoring them, I'm seeing details
I never saw before. And it.And just the purpose that they were
built for, to create shade andrespite for everyone. Poor people,

(29:44):
wealthy people, the entirecommunity. It's still the purpose
that they're being used fortoday. So I just. I love being there,
and I love getting. We'restarting construction on four more
this year. And getting. It'slike getting to know a new friend.
They have different materials.They were thought of differently.
Each one is very unique. Sothat's been. I love looking at those.
Do you guys marvel when you gointo an old building or you look

(30:07):
at how the materials that theywere using back then and how they
accomplished all these things,or the vision that they had? You
like, wow.
The craftsmanship that you seein older.
Buildings is an artistry.
Unbelievable. And if youreally start looking at it from our
point of view, where we knowhow these things go together, and
start to think, how did theydo that?

(30:28):
And even construction, when welook at old sets of drawings and
it's. The design intent isthere, and beautiful drawings and
the ornamentation on theWainwright, but it's like a half
of an elevation. And then thecontractor and the craftsman made
it happen.
Wow. So, Joel, you mentionedsomething that I thought was very
interesting, that we have thiswonderful architecture here in the

(30:51):
city, and we need to leverageit a little bit more. I want to piggyback
that with the team that youhave. The rest of the team back at
Trevor's is how is it. And whyis it important to have the diverse
perspective that you guys haveas an architectural firm? And how
does that translate intoleveraging how a city can leverage

(31:14):
what it has? In other words,I'm trying to talk. We have all these
different silos of people andgroups that represent a variety of
things out in our community,but it seems like we can never get
them all together to focus inone direction, to really leverage
what we have. So how do youguys. How do you guys leverage what.
That's a tall order.
How do you guys leverage whatyou. Have within your office with

(31:35):
the diverse group that you have?
I would actually take thatanother step further and talk about
our team in the bigger pictureon projects where we've got lots
of consultants that don't workfor us engineers and all sorts of
other consultants that help usnavigate all of those things.
Things.
And that really is the wholeteam on some of these larger projects,

(31:58):
the number of people involvedin the design Process is probably
close to a hundred, and sothat's really the full team. But
I appreciate the awareness ofour team, and we do have a great
team. And recruiting isarguably one of the probably top
three things that we have todo as a firm to maintain the level

(32:20):
that we are to staycompetitive and to stay as. As good
at the things that we do tomaintain that skill. We have to recruit
the best people all the time,and that's a challenge. But once
you do have all those voicesand people from different schools.
We talked about that a littlebit earlier. Different schools teach
slightly differently, andhaving those different backgrounds

(32:42):
helps. Also having interiordesigners in our office and architects,
we. We go to school and we'relearning very different things, and
we really approach projects ina very different way, and that's
important, too. So all of thatdoes get blended together.
I think it ought to continuewith Joe's thought. There is the.

(33:02):
As you mentioned earlier,Arnold, the listening aspect is critical.
And I think no matter who itis, on our office, we really emphasize
the fact of listening to whatthe client is saying, and not just
what they're saying, butreally what they're meaning to say
behind that. And sometimes youhave to dig a little deeper to understand,
you know, what it is aboutthat. And I think for us to solve

(33:25):
complex problems, we have toask hard questions sometimes and
go a little deeper into whatit is they're trying to say. And
so if you. You have to createa culture of being comfortable with
asking those questions andhaving people that are there that
have the desire to have avision of the future that's better
than what we have of thepresent. And so by everything that

(33:48):
Joe said of finding the rightpeople to bring into the firm and
the diverse backgrounds, andcouple that with this thought and
mentality to be able to make apositive difference, we really try
to foster that culture withinour office.
Yeah, I think we know thatdiverse teams perform better. There's
all kinds of research studiesthat prove that. And so we are intentionally

(34:10):
trying to create a team withas much diversity as we can. Because
added to Joe's list of peopleworking on a project, our client
team is also a huge. Theprimary stakeholder in any project.
And they have their ownconsultants with their own backgrounds.
And so the more we can offerour clients in terms of perspectives
and backgrounds and viewpointsand all of that, it's only going

(34:33):
to serve them better and allowus to communicate better with our
clients, too.
I have a question about. Leadis a big thing. Has been a big thing
in the architectural world fora while. Aspects for those people
who really don't, I think theyunderstand maybe a superficial view
of sustainability. Give ussome aspects, some attributes of

(34:53):
sustainability in what you doon a daily basis and what you design.
Yeah, you're all elite certified.
Amy's been setting the. Justthe aspect of reusing the existing
buildings is really awonderful starting point. And to
mark. Sometimes you can'treuse it, sometimes you can and you

(35:15):
have to move on from that. Butthere's 3 billion square feet of
underutilized square footagein the United States. So we have
housing shortages, we havemisalignment of where that's used.
So there isn't necessarily ahuge rush to go out and build new
square footage, especiallywhen you're having a hard time in
a slow growth region like wehave here. So what can you do to

(35:38):
reuse the resources that youhave? And starting with the existing
structure. You have existingstructure, you have existing envelope
that can be up to 35% of whatyou put into the building right off
the bat. And that's a hugestarting point. Then you add in new
system upgrades and take abuilding that is even. We're looking
at a building right now thatwas built in the late 90s and upgrading

(35:59):
its H vac system. Just byrepurposing that, changing out the
lighting, we can save themhundreds of thousands of dollars
a year in operational costs.Thinking just beyond tear down, redo,
start over, it's how can wesupplement, how can we make best
of what we've got and how tointerject new technologies, even
existing buildings that wehave old windows. I think a lot of

(36:21):
things we do. Joe mentioned wedo a lot of work with Wash U even
retaining existing windows,but putting historic storm windows
on those to reduce the energyor increase the energy performance.
And the R value of thosewindows is something pretty simple
and rather inexpensive thatyou can do. So it's just thinking
about it a little bitdifferent way than you would, you
know, from an existingbuilding. If you start with an existing

(36:43):
building and a LEED Platinumbuilding, it's going to take 10,
15 years for that leadplatinum building just to equal the
amount of resources that goesinto that embodied carbon and everything
that goes into an existingbuilding to catch up to it.
Because is it the firm's goalor is it the architectural goal?
Was it 2035 about carbon?Quote that for me because I know

(37:04):
I don't have that correct.Carbon free or.
Yeah. And essentially net zeroby 2030 on carbon. We've got a Tough
road to climb to get to thatpoint as a collective society.
Yeah, we signed on to thatchallenge officially stating that
we would do everything we canto get ourselves there. But to Joel's

(37:26):
point, it's it. That's a tallorder. And a big part of any project's
sustainable goals is what theowner wants. All too often we have,
and I would say honestly, inmy opinion, if there's ever misalignment
between us and the clients,it's usually on that the first cost
of those things can be higher.To take the steps that you need to

(37:48):
do a building correctly thefirst time, that cost can be higher.
But you have to understand thepayoff and the value to that going
forward. And if some clientshave a plan to not hold a building
as long or things like that,then that's going to be tough to
convince them of. And also Ithink that in general the public
has to get a little moreeducated about that and has to understand

(38:09):
that these are importantthings. And right now that's not
the case across the board.
That's true. So here's a bigquestion. Looking historically, architecture
has gone through a lot ofdifferent kind of design phases,
which I think you probablywould understand. Maybe I'm thinking
there's Romanesque, there'sRenaissance, there's mid century

(38:31):
modern, blah, blah, blah,blah. But also some structural and
foundation and maybe sometheoretical basis and phases also.
Where do you see architecturegoing in the future if you put your
crystal ball hat on?
One of the changes I feel likewe're seeing is as we talked a little

(38:52):
bit earlier about thislistening aspect of architecture.
For so long, architecture wasthis master builder come in and you
dictate the design and this iswhat you're getting where the architect's
the master thinker behind itall. And I think we're really seeing
maybe a shift away from thatmentality because as Amy was talking

(39:12):
about, the diverse makeup ofour team and our clients and that
just doesn't, doesn't work forthose solutions. There's very complex
problems that need to besolved and not one person is going
to be able to take thatbecause they have of innate biases
in their own way that theyapproach certain things. And so you
need a lot of different voicesat the table. And so I think the

(39:35):
firms that are successfulbringing those together are going
to be the ones that reallyhave to me the best aspect of in
the future of architecture.Because the climate issue isn't going
away. And so we've got to beable to deal with that. And those
are going to be hard problemsand we're going to need a lot of
minds to put that to helpsolve that.

(39:56):
I'd maybe go back to our bothand comment on the form versus function.
I'm just sitting here thinkingabout it, but I think there's renewed
appreciation for artistry andthings that are beautiful and things
that make you feel good, thatmeet. But we also need our buildings
to function and perform welland be good for the planet and be

(40:19):
good for the people that areliving in them. So I hope that the
future is blending those two,figuring out how to create solutions
that perform really well, butalso make people feel good and are
lovely to look at. Maybe wecreate a building that's your new
favorite building toolkit, butyeah, I hope that it's both. Yeah.

(40:43):
I had a very similar questionin one of my final exams in school
and I was struggling with howto write that answer. And the answer
that I wrote was, the onlything I know for sure is it's going
to continue to change. And Ileft it at that. And I got literally
a letter from the professorsaying that's the answer I've been

(41:03):
looking for a long time. Idon't know. I don't think any of
us really know. I know it'sgoing to change. I know that what
we do is somewhat reactive towhat's going on in the world and
in society and we have toadapt if we're going to be successful,
where society going to go. AsJoel said, this climate change stuff

(41:23):
isn't going away and societyis going to need us to react to that.
That's going to become anincreasingly important part of what
we do and that will change theway we put buildings together. There's
no question about it. So Ialso think that there's going to
be revolutionary change in thematerials and things that we use
to put buildings together. Iworry that someday that is going

(41:46):
to make what we do a lotadaptive, reuse close to impossible.
But there's probablytechnology that's going to be developed
to deal with those buildingstoo, that we don't even understand
right now. I would say it'sgoing to be a lot different than
it is now. And I don't knowwhat it's going to be.
You know what's interesting,Mark, is a lot of people do not consider
architecture art, but itreally is. It's. Oh yeah, it's a.

(42:10):
Because what you just saidmade perfect sense to me in the realm
of art and music and dance andbecause you're reacting to things
around you in the environmentand technological changes. And you
have to incorporate those inwhat you do on an ongoing basis.
And then something else comesin is how does that fit into this?
Yeah, that. And I see artistshave done that. I see musicians have

(42:33):
done. The dancers have donethat. Literary arts does that, you
know, and it's just it. Youcan't just view like an old building
as well.
That's.
That was built in the 1890sbecause the inside might be totally
modern. And you have to seehow everything. The amalgamation
of our culture and society haspushed architecture as an art forward

(42:54):
even more.
The architectural design of somany buildings is just beautiful.
It's just. It is, it's an art,it's an artistic expression. I think
of the architects.
Yeah.
And like you say, what's goingon around us in our day to day things.
Yeah. There's so manybuildings, so many things that you
can talk about that just areso weird. On Kings highway, the new

(43:17):
apartments or condos on. Rightover there by the, by the Chase Park
Plaza. That's artistic to me.It's different. It's not the same.
Old Amy was talking about thejoy and beauty in buildings and we
as Joe was talking about thechange in society and how what we're
responding to, we have adecision to make. We live in the

(43:38):
environment that we construct.This is not dictated to us. We have
a decision to be able tocreate the environment that we want
to live in. So if we, we talkabout the craftsmanship and the artistry,
at some point when we weredoing these types of buildings a
hundred years ago, there was adesire to do that, there was a passion,
there was expectation thatwhat we created for ourselves was

(44:01):
beautiful and functional. Andit's up to us to be able to still
demand that and expect thatout of the environment that we reside
and we call home.
I think that's demand andexpect that because we've kind of
lowered the bar a little bitin our society as far as what we
expect out of things becausewe've become a very throwaway society.
And I think we need to raisethat back a little bit. Get that

(44:23):
back. Question I always askartists, musicians or literary arts
people or those who draw. Youhave somebody listening who is thinking
about a career inarchitecture. What do you tell them
to do to continue this, tobuild that feeling, that desire to

(44:43):
do that, and what thingsshould they do to enhance their chances
in architectural school and beyond?
First I would say travel,study other buildings, look at other
architecture. But as someonewho transferred into architecture,
I would also say it's nevertoo late, and you don't have to take

(45:04):
the classes in high school orwhatever. The career can be and should
be for everyone. And we needeveryone. So reach out. We get calls.
We host a shadow day in thesummer for high school students or
early college students whowant to see what architecture is
like. It's pretty differentthan what portrayed on television.
That's one of the things Ilove about it. Every day is different.

(45:26):
And I also think there's aplace for everyone. You can be a
technical architect who maybecan't hand draw things beautifully.
You can draw a beautifuldetail, or you can be a conceptual
architect who has a great bigidea paired with someone else who
knows how to execute the idea.So you don't have to have all of
the things that go intoarchitecture to be part of a really

(45:47):
great team. So reach out tous, reach out to firms that you admire,
reach out to. People lovetalking about their work, and they'll
most often call you that.
Okay.
I often say our superpower ofour profession is to continue to
see things not as they are,but as they could be. And so I think
anybody who walks around thisworld and imagines a different world

(46:10):
and imagines how somethingcould be changed or different, I
would say to follow thatcuriosity, because there's a lot
of times we'll say, oh, mygosh, that could be that. And somebody
say, I've never thought of itthat way. And so I think there's
some something to thatcuriosity and slowing down. I think
Amy's point about travel isgreat because you start to see things
in a different light. And Ialways say when you travel, you don't

(46:32):
only necessarily learn aboutwhere you are, but where you're from.
And I think it's a wonderfulreflection if you just stop and look
at a building. So often we'rejust taking a picture. We saw it,
and we move on. But if youjust sit there and study, understand
the proportions and the makeupand the detailing and how the light
works, and you just sit thereand observe for a while, you have

(46:53):
to take a moment and take itin and just not be in a rush. You
start to see the world alittle bit differently than maybe
you did before. And if that'sin you, then pursue it.
Those are good answers, and Iwould have probably said parts of
those. But I would also add tothat. I think the most important
thing that I learned veryearly on when I was still in school

(47:16):
was through working for aconstruction company and actually
witnessing construction everyday. And seeing what happened and
interacting with carpentersand plumbers and people just solving
the problems of it. Because alot of people today come out of architecture
school not reallyunderstanding how a building actually

(47:36):
goes together. And it is whatwe do. After all. We're drawing directions
for them to do this stuff. Andif you can be more informed about
how it actually gets built,that would be my advice to young
people.
I'm sure there's contractorsthat have come back to you and said,
thanks for that detail. Thatreally saved me thinking about this.
Or I was able to put thattogether a lot quicker than if I

(47:57):
hadn't had that.
Oh, yeah, yeah. And reallywhen they're questioning us, it's
because they have to. They'vegot to get it done. They have to
make it work. And if wehaven't given them enough information,
they're stuck. And that's animportant part of it. But also, I
think you do a better job ofit when you know how it really goes
together. Because then you canreally achieve your goal in a way

(48:19):
that's achievable by thecontractor. If you give them something
that you think looks the wayyou want but is going to be really
hard to build, that's notgoing to be successful. It's being
able to actually execute theidea and the vision in a way that's
practical and can get done.
Is knowing math important tobeing an architect? Is that that's
something I should bestudying. I hate calculus.

(48:44):
I think it's more the abilityto solve problems analytically, which
sometimes does involve math.But perhaps you could go at it a
different way. I love math.
But Google.
Well, we all have tools thatdo it for us now. Complex geometry.
We don't work it out by doingequations on the notebook anymore.
It's all done in our computers.

(49:05):
And so you don't have a sliderule anymore?
Yeah, no, don't use thatslide, actually. But I don't use
it, Mark.
The worst grades I got incollege were in calculus.
Good to hear.
And it takes the team, right?
That's right.
Do the math.
That's like how CAD haschanged. What you guys do is just
crazy.
And it's gone from handdrawing, even in our time span of

(49:29):
hand drawing to cad. Now it'sthree dimensional building and we're
creating a three dimensionalmodel. Crazy as we draw.
It's unbelievable.
And then you can, you can putthe people in the building and people
see what's up.
Yeah. Right now we use VR andwe're able to put our clients in
the building so they can seeit. And they're like, oh, this is
what it's like. And they'relike, oh, yeah, this, as you try
to describe it and explain it,and sometimes you just can't see

(49:51):
it. People can't read planslike we can, so it's important for
them to experience it. And ifthey can do that early in the design
process, we hope they're goingto be as satisfied in the end.
Some people are very visual.They're very visual.
Yeah. Trying to translate a 2Ddesign into a 3D in your head is
that's what these folks do?
Yep.

(50:14):
It's really been an honor tohave you guys in and to help celebrate
the 50th anniversary ofTrivers and congratulations to what
you guys have done and whatyou're going to be doing, what you're
working on and those projectsthat haven't even dropped in the
lap yet. Kudos for all thegreat work that you've done and helping
sustain our community and keepit pressing forward. So thank you

(50:36):
very much for coming in andtalking about.
Thank you for having us.
Yeah.
Okay, Mark, that's all for theshow today. We. We.
That's all you got?
Bucked up. I've got more, butI really have a great joke. I know
I have some mental floss and Ihave some other things, but if. Do
you have some days of the.
Day or just a couple. This isfor Joel International Youth Day,

(50:57):
because Joel did the. TheEarly Childhood Center. So it's National
Youth Day. Milkman Day. Didyou ever have a milkman come to your.
Yes.
In your neighborhood?
Yes, I did.
And we used to go out and askfor ice because they'd have big blocks
of ice. So they'd chip the iceoff and they'd give them to the kids
in the neighborhood. And howmy teeth are still good, I have no
idea. But they used to dothat. That's right. Oh, here's a

(51:18):
good one. Middle Child Day.
Oh, I'll celebrate that.
We got a couple hands raised.I know. Let's see.
Stable ones.
I know. It's Mother's Day inThailand and your favorite, National
Gooey Buttercake day.
That's the St. Louis thing.
Yes, it is. All right.
I thought this is some mentalfloss. There are some playgrounds

(51:40):
around the United States thathave some very integrative, innovative
playgrounds. One is inBrooklyn, the Domino park playground.
It sits on the side of the oldDomino Sugar Refinery and was. They
used the. The manufacturingplace there to help give the kids
a de facto journey through thesugar production process. There's

(52:00):
the city museum here in St.Louis. Very well known, very popular.
30 total slides, three on theroof, a five story one. You got a
bus and a plane and a Ferriswheel on top. There's another one
in Greensboro, Alabama. It'scalled Lions Park Playscape. It's
constructed entirely out of 55gallon galvanized drums, 3,000 of

(52:24):
them. And they used to holdmint oil and so they create a maze.
Then there's the Little Debbiepark in Collegedale, Tennessee. Little
Debbie Park. It's very sweetpark and with play structures modeled
after Nutty Buddies, CosmicBrownies and oatmeal cream pies.

(52:44):
The Chattanooga area park sitson land donated by the McKee Foods,
the company that makes LittleDebbies. And there's a playground.
It's a civic pride for thecity and the company's employees.
So just some interesting kindsof things there.
I love it. Okay, great.
We won't do a joke today. Mark.
If you have just moments, youcan probably sneak one in if it's

(53:07):
really bad.
Okay.
Which is not hard for you ifit's really bad.
I know. Here's one. It's so hot.
Yeah. How hot is it?
Farmers are feeding theirchickens crushed ice to keep them
from laying hard boiled eggs.
Oh, come on. You're almostdone here. You got 30 seconds.

(53:29):
My whole life, I never read awarning label telling me not to eat
laundry detergent or put gluein my hair. Somehow I just knew.
I'm with you on that one. Iknow it. Do you really have to tell
people that?
Yep, you do. Well, that's allfor this hour, folks. Thanks for
listening. If you've enjoyedthis episode, you can listen to additional
[e-mail] Considerleaving a review on our website,

(53:52):
Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, oryour preferred podcast platform.
Your feedback helps us reachmore listeners and continue to grow.
I want to thank Bob Berthiselfor our theme music, our sponsor,
Better Rate Mortgage. Ourguests From Trivers Architecture,
trivers.com and co host MarkLangston. And we thank you for being
a. Part of our community ofcurious minds. St. Louis Intune is
a production of Motif MediaGroup and the US Radio Network. Remember

(54:15):
to keep Seeking, keeplearning, walk Worthy, and Let yout
light shine for St. Louis intune. I'm Arnold Stricker.

(54:41):
Sam.