Building Mental Resilience: How Bodybuilding Teaches Life Lessons!

Discover the surprising truth that extreme physical discipline and self-imposed hardship are the keys to building unbreakable mental resilience. In episode 811 of the Savage Perspective Podcast, host Robert Sikes sits down with natural pro bodybuilder Josh Lay to reveal how the intense sacrifices of competitive bodybuilding teach invaluable life lessons. They explore how dieting to extreme levels of leanness, managing a demanding career, and navigating the psychological challenges of prep can forge a powerful mindset that translates directly to success in business and life. This conversation reveals the raw, unfiltered truth about what it truly takes to succeed.

Ready to build your own foundation of discipline and transform your physique? Join Robert’s FREE Bodybuilding Masterclass to learn the exact strategies used by top natural athletes to build muscle and get lean. Sign up here: https://www.ketobodybuilding.com/registration-2

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Subscribe to the podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/42cjJssghqD01bdWBxRYEg?si=1XYKmPXmR4eKw2O9gGCEuQ

Chapters:

0:00 Why Bodybuilding is The Ultimate Life Hack 

1:41 Inside a First-Time Competitor's Season 

3:50 The Dangers of Extreme Dieting 

5:28 What Pushes a Lifter to Finally Compete? 

6:55 The Hidden Sacrifices of a Bodybuilder 

8:58 Balancing a Demanding Career & Bodybuilding 

11:10 My Plan To Earn a Pro Card 

13:25 Off-Season Bulk vs. Shredded Stage Weight 

15:30 My Exact Training & Nutrition Philosophy 

18:40 The Brutal Reality of a No-Carb Diet 

21:25 How Extreme Prep Affects Your Mood 

25:05 How Dieting Craters Your Testosterone 

27:26 The #1 Mistake Natural Bodybuilders Make 

30:53 The Most Overlooked Aspect of Competing 

35:16 Why I Refuse to Take Steroids 

39:30 What Your Body Can Do Without Excuses 

42:27 How Bodybuilding Impacts Your Relationships 

49:52 The Hardest Part of Bodybuilding (It's Not The Prep) 

52:45 Your Prep is a Reflection of Your Off-Season 

58:20 My Old-School Training for Maximum Muscle

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
There's just so much more that goes into it that people outside
of the sport don't necessarily get, but one of the things I
love about that is the structureand routine that it can provide.
You can give you so much consistency in your life.
Even though it's a struggle, you're still getting consistency
and you can really lean into that.
It almost makes life a little easier in some aspects.

(00:22):
We live in a pretty soft time. We need to have like the
self-imposed hardship and I feellike bodybuilding can be a great
vehicle for providing that self-imposed hardship when you
are a bodybuilder and you actually commit to stepping on
stage. Like there's so much more
sacrifice involved than just simply lifting.
And we are live. Josh, how are you, brother?
I'm doing great man. How are you?

(00:42):
I'm good, I'm good. So we met at the Rock Town
Natural show. Was that two weeks ago now?
I guess 2 weeks. Yeah, about two weeks ago.
And you took the overall in yourdivision, totally killed it.
You were like, I mean, all the competitors are pretty solid.
I mean, it's pretty stacked class, but I mean, you were
definitely the one you know I was in.

(01:03):
Shit it, man. That was the goal all season.
I was selling my coach. We're going to come in, no
doubt, no question about it. That's that's the goal right
there, right from the beginning of all.
Season, yeah. And that's, that's the right
mindset to have. Like when you step on stage, the
judge's only job is to figure out who's going to be second.
Because you're first, you know? And that's the way to look at
it. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, what's the point of of competing at that level if you

(01:27):
don't want to win? You know, I mean, the goal is
always to put your best on stageno matter what, and that's going
to look different at any point in your life, even from
day-to-day. But the goal is to win, you
know? 100 percent, 100%.
So this is your first competitive season?
Yep, my first competitive seasonI had four shows, 2 in the NANB

(01:52):
F1 OCB and one USBF. And when when was the first
show? Because the wrong time was your
last show, right? Yeah, The Rock Time was my last
show. The first show was towards the
end of June 21st, I think it wasSaint Louis Naturals.
Nice. Nice.
And you did the Wisconsin warrior too, didn't you?
I did. That's that's where I met Greg.

(02:12):
Yeah, So Greg, Greg works for me.
He's an awesome dude. And he, we were sitting in the
break room the other day and he's like, man, I knew that guy
looked familiar. And he pulled up a picture on
his phone with you and him both on stage.
And I'm like, Yep, sure enough, same guy.
And you beat him. So awesome.
No, I actually the meeting Greg at Wisconsin, that was a great

(02:32):
experience. I think that was one of my
favorite photos ever taken of me, like probably top three of
this season, no doubt including all the stage photos that that
one of Greg and I fist pumping on stage.
One of my favorites. Greg's a good dude, man.
I mean, he, this is the first time he's competed in that
Wisconsin Warrior show, but he'svolunteered there several years

(02:54):
and he's like, man, they they doan awesome job promoting it.
So I just want to go compete in this year.
So he started prepping like January because his main show is
my show next month. But he wanted to do the.
Wisconsin show as well so he's had a crazy long prep too.
Yeah, I mean, you almost have tobe, I mean, I'm I'm saying
minimum 20 weeks if you just want to be absolutely dialed and

(03:15):
that that's bare minimum becauseI I think by the end of my
season, I was I was on week 27. So I mean, you're you're pushing
that six month mark. I mean, it's you're in the
trenches, no doubt, but that's along.
Time, man, I mean, my, my last season was 23.
I did 5 shows and it was a 33 week prep.
And honestly by the 33rd week I was looking just worse than I

(03:39):
was, you know, 4-5, six weeks prior because I was just so
depleted. I was crazy lean.
But it's like you sacrifice everything else when you get
that depleted. So there's definitely a point of
diminishing returns with the prep length, but the same time
my first. Prep was 12.
Weeks long. I lost 80 lbs in 12 weeks and I
wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
Man, it's just not good. Oh, I mean, you're looking at

(04:01):
like the most brutal pain you can experience, either in terms
of the speed you have to lose the fat or the length of time
that you've been losing fat. And like, striking that perfect
balance. It's going to look different for
everyone. It's going to feel different for
everyone and it's going to and it's going to it's just
difficult to find that perfect in between of how fast do I want

(04:25):
to lose the weight and how how much muscle do I want to retain.
I mean it's. It's it's.
Yeah, and it's going to look different every year for you,
for the same person too. A. 100% So would this been your
first competitive season? How long you been lifting?

(04:45):
I guess going on 8 years now. I I it's funny, I actually
started lifting because I didn'twant to get fat after stopping
swimming in college. So that was how I how I chose to
get into lifted. Lifting was just the my main
form of exercise after college swimming.
Do you swim at all now or no? Man, I haven't been in the
competitive pool a day since I stopped in college.

(05:08):
Nice. Yeah, I I never, I took like
swimming lessons when I was likea little bitty kid, but man, I
haven't been in a pool and eons either.
Like I, I just sink when I swim.Like I don't, I don't do very
good. It's even tougher for
bodybuilders because you just, you have that lean mass and it's
it's dense tissue, it's not going to float well.
So when you started lifting as away to not get fat, what was the

(05:29):
the catalyst for like, OK, I'm going to actually take it to the
next level and compete because alot of people lift and it's
like, I've been thinking about this a lot.
Like, how do I get people, especially now that I'm a show
promoter, it's like, how do I get people to cross the
threshold of lifting looking good, wanting to be healthy to
like, OK, let's actually, you know, showcase this and take it
to the next level and step on stage.
I'm not going to lie, man, I, I,I am not really sure.

(05:51):
I think it was for me, it was, Imiss competing in something.
I'm such a competitive person. If I'm going to do something, I
want to be the best, you know what I mean?
So it's, I think there's a levelof intrinsic motivation
required. And then also you got to find
someone in the right stage of their life.
I mean, this is, this isn't easyand it you got to dedicate a lot

(06:13):
of time to it. So it's got to be a combination
of timing and intrinsic motivation.
I think that's the key is, is just how can we keep people
motivated? How can we get people motivated
to make the sport better? Yeah, totally.
And I feel like I wrote about this in my newsletter that went
out today. It's like we live in a pretty

(06:33):
soft time. We need to have like the
self-imposed hardship. And I feel like bodybuilding can
be a great vehicle for providingthat self-imposed hardship.
Like training in and of itself is great, but like when you or a
bodybuilder and you actually commit to stepping on stage,
like there's so much more sacrifice involved and just
simply lifting. And that, I think is necessary

(06:54):
in this day and age for sure. Yeah, I, I think that's
something that a lot of people outside of the sport don't
necessarily understand is like, it's not just lifting.
The lifting's honestly the easiest part of, of getting
ready for a show. I mean, you, you got to add in
more cardio. You've got to change your diet
on more than weekly. Sometimes you you have to go to

(07:17):
bed and get plenty of sleep so you're not getting carrying
extra inflammation. You probably got to mess with
your water intake so you're not hiding detail and making sure
you're still hydrated. I mean, you can't be getting too
little water too far out from a show.
I mean, there's just so much more that goes into it that
people outside of the sport don't necessarily get.

(07:39):
But one of the things I love about that is the structure and
routine that it can provide. You can give you so much
consistency in your life. Even though it's a struggle,
you're still getting consistencyand you can really lean into
that. And it, I mean it, it just, it
almost makes life a little easier in some aspects because

(08:00):
you know what to expect on your day-to-day.
Yeah. And I feel like when you're,
especially when you're towards the end of a prep and you're
depleted, like you don't have energy for anything that's
unnecessary. So like you get really good at
figuring out what is just noise in your life and then you just
strip that out of the equation all together.
And then once the show is over, it's like you have this new

(08:21):
found efficiency with everythingand that transcends the sport
and bleeds into everything you do.
Oh, absolutely. I, I mean, the amount of things
that you had going on in your life before prep, you kind of
realize what do I still want in my life and what do I no longer
need in my life? What's important to me, what's

(08:41):
no longer important to me? And it gives you a new
appreciation for the things thatyou want to keep in your life.
But then it also allows you to, like you said, to cut out a lot
of the noise, a lot of the unnecessary things, some of the
things that might distract you from reaching goals in other
areas of your life. 100% what doyou what do you do for work?

(09:01):
What? What's your day-to-day outside
of bodybuilding? So I work from home, I'm a
regulatory affairs specialist for medical devices.
I work at a company called Bomeru.
They make in vitro diagnostics of the lab tests at hospitals.
So you're doing that You're. Overseeing the lab test
component or what? So I basically what I do is I

(09:25):
sit on new product development projects and give the
registration requirements and regulatory design inputs for to
launch and target countries. And then my position
specifically, I'll perform the registrations of those devices
in the United States, European Union and.

(09:46):
Gotcha. So when you work in countries
all different time zones, are you pretty flexible as to how
you structure your hours it? It depends.
It's a French company, so like half of my company is working
and there's what, 6-7 hours ahead of any given time in the
year. So I'll, I'll have some pretty
early mornings where I might have a meeting 78 AM.

(10:09):
But then I also the products that I specialize in are coming
out of a startup in San Jose. So we purchased that startup and
I might have meetings at 5:00 PMnow because that's 3:00 PM for
them. So it it's not odd for me to
take a break in the middle of the day if I had an early
meeting and then a super late meeting, take a break in the

(10:31):
middle of the day and I'm still working the amount of time that
I'm supposed to. Did you start doing that right
out of school? Yeah, it's my first job out of
school, second position within the company, but but same
company since I've been out of school.
And you like it, I take it? Yeah, they give me every other
Friday off as long as I work theright amount of hours.

(10:51):
Pretty good benefits outside that.
Every other Friday? Man, that's a golden handcuff.
It'll it'll be hard to find thatelsewhere.
It will. It will.
And you're 29, right if I remember correctly.
Yeah, I just turned 29 at the end of June. 29 man, totally
killing it on stage like you gota you got a good future in the
sport. If you want to just stick with
it man. Are you planning on sticking
with it? Oh absolutely, I'm not.

(11:13):
I mean, I've got a about a five month offseason plan, then back
into prep, hopefully try to get some good size, make my pro
debut next year, probably aroundthe same timing as this year.
Going to look for shows in probably around June, July.
Gonna get you on that world stage man.

(11:34):
I don't know about that. Yeah, I'd like to get a little
bit more size than I think 5 months could could do.
Before that stage weight. I was 164 on stage at Rocktown
Naturals. Nice.
I mean it, that was definitely the best look I brought all
season. In my first show I was 161 but I
I could have been a lot fuller. That Wisconsin Warrior show 3

(11:57):
weeks later I was probably a bittoo full but still still at 164
but lost a little bit of definition.
And then I actually ended up doing 3 shows back-to-back to
back, so all three weekends in arow.
And that last week my coach was like, man, you're going to have

(12:18):
to train a little bit harder than you would on a normal peak
week because the risk of you just going waking up flat 1
morning is so high with the decreased intensity.
Yeah, it's tough when you get peak weeks back-to-back to back.
I always like having them in a pretty condensed window.
But ideally like every other weekend, like every two weeks
have a show that that's kind of like a good sweet spot.

(12:39):
But when they're every weekend, man, like peak week manipulation
is just it just compounds and bythe end of it you're like, man,
I need some hard training sessions in.
Yeah, I mean, though, I mean, the last thing that you wanted,
even mentally, the last thing you want to do is just wake up 1
morning and and not get that dopamine rush.
Because I think that's one of the most motivating things about
the sport and being in prep. And one of the things that keeps

(13:01):
you going is you can see changesalmost daily, sometimes
depending on what phase of your diet or your prep you're in and
getting that dopamine rush firstthing in the morning when you
wake up, you see some new lines,some new definition.
It just really keeps you going. And it it can feel you'll fuel
you for like probably the first half of your day until you

(13:22):
realize, man, I'm depleted. 100%man.
So if you were competing AT161164, what was your starting
weights, you know going into the?
Prep at the peak of my bulk I was 184.
By the end of like my pre prep phase where I was just trying to
cut out a little bit of the excess water, I'd see what my

(13:43):
true weight was about 181. So I mean, it was A at my
lowest, it was about a 25 LB swing from absolute top end,
absolute lowest. That's a pretty healthy window
though. I mean, I've done like I've done
crazy. You know, dirty books, for lack
of a better term. My first show when I lost those
80 lbs in 12 weeks I got bulked up to 2:30 and then competed at

(14:06):
like 151 or something crazy. Oh man.
Not good. And then since then, I've always
tried to just keep it within a tighter window.
I'm like 180 right now. And I'd gotten up to 200 at the
end of my last building phase. And I'm just like, like I'm how
tall are you going? About the same height, Right.
Like 5758. Yep.

(14:26):
Yeah. So like 200 lbs at our height.
It's just not really necessary. Oh man, that's that's real.
Heavy and and my heaviest I was,I was two O 8 and man, I was not
happy with the way I looked. I was not healthy.
It was it was that's that's what's kind of started my like
motivation like man, I could I really want to lose some weight.

(14:48):
We'll see what happens. So I started like my first cut
on my own before even having a coach.
And that's how I kind of got into the sport was some a buddy.
Actually, he's my teammate now. He came up to me at the gym.
He's like, man, have you ever thought about competing?
And I was like, you know, I've thought about it, but I never
really thought it was something I had the discipline for.
I've never dieted in my life. I, I don't know if I can do that

(15:10):
extreme of dieting. And he's like, well, let me just
connect you with my coach. We'll, we'll, he'll, he'll talk
to you and we'll see what, what,what you guys work out.
And that, that was it. That was end game.
I hired him a week later after my sister's wedding.
I got got back in town and started started going to work.
Nice man. So let's peel the curtain back

(15:30):
on the nuts and bolts of your prep.
Like, what did you do nutritionally?
What was your training looking like?
Like how did you structure it all?
So I actually had kind of like aa typical training schedule.
I was lifting in the morning, fasted and doing cardio in the
afternoon just because that's what I had gotten so used to
mentally. My coach and I decided from the

(15:50):
mental perspective, we don't want to change my routine until
I go back into an offseason because I mean, when you're
going into prep, you, you crave consistency.
I mean, that's, that's what's going to keep you going more
than anything. So we kept that schedule going
during this prep where I was lifting in the morning.
I prefer that man. Like training fasted in my

(16:12):
opinion is way better than doingat the end of a work day or like
having a whole bunch of food in your system.
Like I always prefer training fasting.
No, I, that's how I kind of started and that's why I was
doing that during going into this prep.
But man, you just get such good pumps after having about four
meals and maybe a snack in you like like some, some cream of

(16:33):
rice that you just get such a better pump.
And well, that's one of the things that I noticed the most
was towards the end of prep whenyou're so depleted, you really
are just chasing a pump in your workout because it they are
fleeting. They are, they are definitely
fleeting. What would you do?
Like when you were at your, you know, peak offseason, what was
your caloric intake looking likethen?

(16:56):
I'm going to be honest with you man, I don't even track my own
macros. My coach just tells me what to
eat. I cook it and I eat it and we
make adjustments based off of check insurance.
I'll send photos in my symmetry poses, my relaxed positions, and
he'll he'll zoom in on the photos, check for details and

(17:18):
we'll track my fasted weight every morning and we'll go from
there. Make to make adjustments, either
adding food, taking food away, adjusting macros.
But I I don't know the exact numbers one bit, not going to
lie to you. He's just sending you like a
meal plan every week basically. Pretty much, yeah.
And if, if I have an issue with something or if I'm having any

(17:39):
digestive issues, I let him knowand, and we make adjustments.
We have a really close relationship.
He's he's more like a brother tome than a coach most of the
time. So it's it's yeah, that's what
you want. Especially when you're when
you're digging deep, getting ready for a show like you, you
need people like that in your corner.
So to have that in your coaches,it's special.
Totally, totally. So what what was like prior to

(18:02):
peak week manipulations? What was a typical day of eating
like? You know, as you're getting
deeper and deeper into your prep.
You know, we would do. So during prep, we stick to five
meals, try to space it out evenly throughout my, my awake
hours. But every meal you get a little

(18:24):
bit of carb, protein and beginning and end of day, try to
get a little bit more fats than those meals Got you.
But like, during depression, man.
Yeah. Yeah.
But we, we take away the carbs for a, for a little bit to
really dig out those of those glute lines.

(18:44):
That's, that's the worst part, man.
That that depletion where you'reforcing your body, like coming,
going into ketosis is brutal. Once you're there, it's a little
easier. You again, you get that routine,
you know what to expect. But going into ketosis, man, it
gets you. Yeah, that initial little bit.
Yeah, I mean, I haven't had carbs in over a decade, but it's

(19:04):
like different like when you're in a prep, like I've got a lot
of people, I've got a client right now that's that I just
started working with and he's inthe middle of his prep season
and he's, you know, going traditional bodybuilding route
with carbs and he wasn't happy with that.
So now I was wanting to like go keto for at the last of it.
But like when you're already depleted and you're trying to
get fat adapted mid prep, like that's that's hard, man.

(19:24):
It's brutal. Yeah, it I, it's different for
sure, because now instead of getting like your, your Jasmine
rice like you're used to getting, now your carbs are
coming from greens and you're like, OK, it's a little bit more
satiating just because of the, the amount of greens that you
can get and still get so few carbs.
But man, it just hits you like aton of bricks.

(19:47):
About like 3 PMI was ready for bed and that was it was brutal.
What was your like psychologicalstate and just cognition in
general? Like what was your like mental
acuity like as you get towards the last, you know, 4-6 weeks of
prep? Are you walking around kind of
like zombie mode? There were a couple weeks in
there where I was where I was like a walking zombie.

(20:10):
I was really, I was really happy.
I had no one. People would tell me, man, your
face looks skinny, you look tired.
But I didn't get that, that kindof prep face where your eyes
start sinking in. I was really fortunate that that
did not happen, but it's pretty common to see someone one week
where their eyes just look sunken and they look like a
zombie for sure. But there may be two weeks in

(20:33):
there where I just had worse brain fog than normal.
I mean, during prep, you're going to have a little bit of
brain fog regardless. It's that's just the nature of
it. You're you're not going to be
losing weight the way that you have to and not have at least
slight cognitive effects. It's interesting too.
Like when you're super depleted,I mean kind of like I said

(20:56):
earlier, like you just you don'thave a lot of excess energy.
So you get really efficient at how you structure your day and
you start mapping out everythingthat you have to do that day and
you don't like take any extra steps like you.
Figure out what. All the things you got to pick
up, what all the things you got to do, and you just start like
my whole day's thought process is like, how can I check off all

(21:17):
these things in the most efficient manner possible so
that I'm not doing any extra expenditure beyond what's
necessary? Yeah, I mean, there just comes a
point in your day when you don'thave any energy to do anything
else other than what you need todo.
And if it's something that's unplanned, it can throw you off
so bad. I remember there was one day I,

(21:39):
it was the worst day, my prep byfar.
I think I had like 4 meetings for work planned.
Thankfully 2 of them ended up getting cancelled.
But then it's like your day's changed now.
So mentally how do you adjust tothat?
And then I don't know, maybe just the smallest changes to
your schedule can throw you off mentally so much.

(22:01):
So it's trying to figure out what do I need to do to stay
level headed because just the smallest things can also set you
off at the same time, right? Like you, your fuse is a lot
shorter and like, it's always like that.
Oh, you're walking out of the house in your hoodie pocket gets
caught on the door knob and it's, it's just the last straw.

(22:24):
Things like that. I mean, it's you see memes about
it on Instagram and stuff, but it they do, they really do.
It sets you off a little bit. Yeah, it's, I don't know, like
with my last prep, I try to justreally become like super stoic
because like I got my wife, we had a, my, my 3 year old saying
it was like a year and a half atthe time.

(22:44):
And I didn't want to like blow up on any of them or like, well,
because in, in preps prior when I was just her and I like, I
would just be mean, man, not mean towards her, but just like
super short, super irritable andjust unpleasant.
And like my whole goal with thislast prep was like, I want to go
through this and still be a pleasant human throughout the
entire ordeal. And I feel like I accomplished

(23:05):
that pretty well. But man, I just had to like let
go and surrender and be like, all right, I'm just being chill
because most competitors, like, I mean, you're just, you're just
depleted. You got a short straw.
And like anything sets you off and like, you put the hoodie on
to work out and like anybody screws around with you, anybody
tries to talk to you while you're training, It's like you
just have this, you know, get out of my sight, face on at all

(23:28):
times, you know? Yeah, I there were actually a
couple days where I wasn't even in a bad mood.
I just didn't want to talk to anyone while I was working out.
So I, I put on a on an unhappy face while I was at the gym just
so I could get in, get my workout done without.
I mean, I, I just didn't want tobe bothered.

(23:48):
I, I want to get my work. Like you said, you know what you
need to do for the day. You know how much energy you
have. You just want to get your stuff
done in the order that you haven't done in the amount of
time you have set set aside and,and anything that throws that
off. I mean, not only does it throw
off like your physical game because now your day looks a

(24:11):
little different, but mentally adjusting to those changes it.
I think that's probably the hardest part is the mental
aspect of dealing with. I mean, it's just life.
You still have to live your life.
There are things that happen. There are things you need to to
get done so. It's it's a physical sport in a
sense for sure, but at the end of the day man, it's definitely

(24:32):
more so a mental sport than not I think.
Absolutely. And and I think the mental
aspect is just so much harder trying to adapt and figure out
what's going on in in your day and like life just happens and
you you got to roll with it. And it's not always the easiest
thing to do without, without losing it a little bit, either

(24:52):
breaking down or or having a short fuse.
I mean, it's the emotions go a little crazy.
I mean, and with the hormonal changes from the physical aspect
too, it's going to heighten youremotions even more.
Did you get any blood work drawnthroughout your prep to see kind
of what your hormone markers were doing?
So I've got my blood work done going into prep to see what kind

(25:15):
of the baseline was. I mean, they're going to be your
absolute highest when you're peak bulk, but.
What was your? Testosterone, then you remember.
It was in the mid 5 hundreds. Yeah.
So I mean healthy level, not insanely high, not not even the
the highest end. I think I got my blood drawn at
like 9:00 AM and I was up at 4:00 AM.

(25:37):
So it's going to be slightly lower than the highest it would
have been. Mine's never.
Had either man like I'm typically between 400 and 600 is
kind of like my baseline average.
So that's where that my one of the things that I was most
interested in was was my estrogen levels were about 200.
So right at that top end of where it should be.

(26:00):
So that's something that I kind of wanted to, I'll probably get
my blood drawn in a couple weeks.
I mean working for the company Iwork for, we have an on site
clinic. So I can just man.
Yeah, I make an appointment there and I and I show up on the
day where I go into the office and and they'll take care of me
and they use our own products. So you can't complain one bit
about that. So you haven't gotten a drawn

(26:21):
since that initial draw prior tothe prep starting then.
Correct. But I mean, you can just tell if
you're in tune with your body, you know kind of what's
happening. You don't know the exact
numbers, but you're like, oh man, my, my hormones are
changing right now. And with the amount of fats that
you're consuming too, that's going to play a role. 100%

(26:41):
ma'am, I think. So mine mine at the end of my 33
week prep I got labs drawn in mytestosterone at that point.
That was when I was 3.9% body fat so like way below healthy
range. But my testosterone then was 87
or 89 something crazy low. Yeah, I mean, it's just at the
floor at the absolute lowest it can be.
And I, I think that's one of thetrickiest things that people

(27:05):
need to, to look out for in the sport is how long can you stay
at that level before causing permanent damage?
And what are you going to do immediately afterwards to, to
get your body healthy again? Because you, you got to, you got
to, you got to drive your hormones back up.
And if you want to compete naturally, you you have to
manage your hormones properly. That's why I'm such a big fan of

(27:25):
like, taking a pretty significant offseason between
competitive cycles. So like I did my shows in 23 and
I'm not going to compete again until 27.
And I'll typically take, you know, at least two, if not three
or four years off in between shows because man, like
naturally it's, it's hard to like people that are running
cycles year round. Like they can keep those, those

(27:46):
levels elevated. But if you're natural, you're
going to see that massive drop in metabolic rate, hormone
function, and it takes longer tobuild muscle and it takes to
lose fat. So if you're doing that
naturally, you got to give yourself ample time to build the
muscle. Yeah, and that's actually
something that my coach and I talked about kind of a game plan
for the future is after this next season, taking a five month

(28:07):
offseason, going back into prep,I'm thinking about taking a full
2 years off, not only just to stay healthy for an extended
period, but really to put on some sizes.
Like you say, it just takes longer to put on muscle than it
does to lose fat, so. If you think.
About it, I mean, a lot of people compete every year and
unfortunately a lot of the different federations push

(28:28):
competitors to compete every year because they're getting,
you know, membership dues and things like that.
But if you're natural and you'retaking, you know, 20 plus weeks
to, to prep or six months to prep, that's half the year right
there. Then you get another three
months of reverse dying to kind of return to a stable baseline.
That's nine months out of the year.
And if you go right back into another prep shorter thereafter,

(28:48):
I mean, you're spending more time in a prep than in a build
and you're, you're going to windup looking worse and worse every
year. Yeah, and not only that, but
mentally it's just going to become exhausting too.
I mean, even on show day, you might be feeling a little better
because you got to you either carved up or you, you refilled
somehow. So you're just going to feel a
little better. But so day is exhausting in

(29:10):
itself. And it like just the, the mental
toll it takes to stay focused and to do what you need to do.
And, and who knows how long you're going to get held on
stage. I mean, every show I've, I
compete in classic. So every show I've done, classic
has been the largest class in inthe show.
I mean, they're, they could holdyou out there for 30 minutes,

(29:30):
you never know. I was looking at some, I was
filming like a posing tutorial the other day and I pulled up
some footage from worlds in 23 when I when I did worlds and
they had, I was in the lightweight class for
bodybuilding on the professionalclass and they had us out there
for 57 minutes, dude, almost an hour on stage like.
It's just absolutely brutal. Yeah, you're were you.

(29:54):
I don't. I don't know who could be out
there that long and not start sweating their tan off.
I wasn't swiping my tan off, butit was crazy 'cause there was
like there was almost 40 competitors in the lightweight
class. So they broke it up into two
groups. And the one group was, you know,
back, not backstage, but behind the frontline.
And you know, a lot of people when they're not center, center
line, they wind up relaxing. But I'm like, man, if I'm on

(30:15):
stage, I'm being judged whether I'm frontline or not.
So I relax like 20 minutes before I ever even get to go out
and pose for the judges. So like man, I was.
Wrecked after that. How your shoulders feel after
that? Dude, it was.
It was. It was.
Rough. I mean, 57 minutes on stage is
double whatever I've done in thepast.
I mean, it was, but I'll tell you what, one thing I did in
preparation for that is I would do like one minute holds of each

(30:38):
pose every single day. Like practice holding the poses
and doing those. Holds suck but man they make a
big difference when you're on stage.
Oh yeah, the the conditioning that you need to present
yourself well and just be prepared for however long they
could hold you on stage. You have to practice, practice,
practice. You got to get those holds in,

(30:59):
you got to get, well, number one, you got to make sure you
can do the poses and find what looks best for you.
And that takes a lot of playing around in itself.
And you might even have multiplecoaches looking at you to to
perfect getting into the pose itself.
But then holding it is another it's it's just another game.
I mean the the conditioning, youneed to do that and not just be

(31:22):
out there drenched. Your, your posing was on point
man. Like I mean, you had the, the
conditioning and the shape and symmetry and everything for
sure, but like your posing was also very well done.
Did you have a posing coach separate from your nutrition
coach or one of the same? I appreciate it, but yeah, I
had. So I had a separate posing
coach. My coach competes in, in

(31:44):
bodybuilding and he was really straightforward with me and he
was like, you can pose with me as much as you want.
I'll tell you what I see, I'll correct you.
But if you want to be great and classic, I think you need to get
a classic posing coach. So, so he helped me, connected
me with a classic posing coach. So I have a separate posing
coach and my main prep coach. Nice.

(32:05):
Yeah. A lot of people, they don't give
posing the time it's due, man. But like, it's just a shame.
Like you get your nutrition dialed in, you get your training
dialed in, you're doing your cardio consistently.
You like, you lose all this weight, you get absolutely
diced. And if you can't showcase it for
that, you know, few minutes thatyou're on stage, it's like, why
in the world would that be your stumbling block?
Like, yeah. I mean, you can be the biggest,

(32:26):
most muscular guy on that stage.You could have the best shape
and just have the genetics to destroy everyone on that stage,
but if you can't present as wellas someone else, they're
probably going to place better than you.
Yep. 100% you got to be able notonly do you have to know how to
show off your own physique, you you can watch posing videos and

(32:47):
learn how to hit a pose, but canyou hit the pose the best way
for your body is a totally different game.
And I I'm I'm one of the biggestpieces of advice I could give to
anyone. Find a coach, whether that's for
your nutrition. You could have your nutrition
dialed in on your own, but having a coach will help because

(33:08):
if something goes wrong, you need to make changes.
It's a lot easier to not have tothink about that as much
yourself when you're in prep. And then the other aspect is you
got to have eyes on you when you're posing because people are
going to see different things. They're going to be looking at
you from the perspective of a judge and they're going to tell
you what they see, what needs tochange, and help you play around

(33:28):
with it a little bit to make sure that you're nailing those
poses exactly the way you need to for your physique.
Totally. Are you going to do open
bodybuilding at some point too or stick with classic?
My coach and I have talked abouta little bit it, we don't have a
game plan set for sure, but it'sit's it's not totally out of the

(33:48):
picture. I really love classic.
I love the posing. Yeah, it's you get a little bit
artistic with it sometimes and especially like with the
routines and then with bodybuilding you get you get to
be a little bit more aggressive,have a little bit not
necessarily more fun, but a different type of fun on stage
with the posing, but. We've talked about April One 50s

(34:12):
and bodybuilding. Man, you'd be even a little bit
leaner. Oh, that's, that's tough, man.
I so I think it's a it's a possibility for next season, but
it's definitely going to happen at some point in the future.
Nice. You should definitely do both.
I mean, they, they, they translate pretty well.
Like I've never done men's physique, but I've done classic

(34:33):
and bodybuilding and I like themboth for for what they are.
And I mean, there's a lot of similarities.
I mean, and the dead BNBF, like most natural federations, like
you're able to have classic esque poses in open
bodybuilding. And it's like favorable to some
extent because like natural bodybuilding is more classic by
default. I mean, you're not taking,

(34:54):
you're not ruling out of your minds.
You're not carrying 300 lbs of lean tissue on the stage.
I mean, you look more classic bydefinition, yeah.
I mean, you just you don't get that same extent of mass
monster. You're definitely going to have
guys on that stage that are way bigger than you at some point
that you would consider a mass monster.
But it's not the same and natural like you said, you're
just going to carry a more classic shape if you're

(35:14):
conditioned the way you need to be.
Totally what what's motivated you to stay natural, man?
Like there's a there's a big push now, especially with like
TRTHRT taking everything like not even necessary from a
performance enhancing drug standpoint, but just to like, I
mean with you having 500 some odd total testosterone, like you
walk into any of the clinics on the street corners now that Oh

(35:35):
yeah. Give me a prescription.
Yeah, Yeah. No, I think there are just so
many. I don't want to say this in a
bad way. I think that there's a problem
in our country where where doctors will write you a
prescription when you could manage these things with
lifestyle changes and and hormone levels being one of

(35:57):
them. If, if your diet is locked in or
you're eating healthy even ninety, 8090% of the time,
you're going to see a massive increase in your health.
I mean, if I can control something through diet and food,
and I mean, don't get me wrong, I love food.
I love going out trying a new restaurant.

(36:17):
But if you don't do that every night and you, you cook at home,
you manage your sodium intake, you, you get your macros locked
down a little bit. You're just going to notice such
huge differences in your health overall that you won't even need
to go to a doctor for twice likehalf as many times a year as you
would normally go. I, I mean, outside of getting my

(36:39):
annual knocked on wood, I haven't had to go to a doctor
for a real issue in, in a, in a couple of years now.
Just trying to eat healthier, manage things through my diet.
And I mean, anytime you're putting out excess chemicals in
your body, your metabolism is going to be affected.
So I think it's just an overall health push in my head that if I

(37:04):
can manage these things on my own through my diet, I can stay
healthier and have more longevity both in life and in
the sport of bodybuilding. I mean, I mean, at the end of
the day, it's, it's longevity that we're looking for, right?
That's, that's, that's one of the, the main goals is how can
we enjoy life and live life to our fullest, but do it for a

(37:24):
longer period of time? Yeah, totally agree, man.
I feel like you look at the people that are at the top of
the heap and natural bodybuilding that are older.
Like look at Jeff Alberts, you know, he's like 54 years old or
something crazy. Looks phenomenal.
And it's just because of his compounded actions over his
lifetime, you know, like he's doing all the right things, he's
eating the right foods, he's training correctly, you know,

(37:45):
preventing injury. It's like that, like he'll never
be, you know, the size of Phil Heath, but he's going to be much
healthier in the long run. He's still going to be doing it
long after Phil's retired, whichhe has.
It's like that's, that's what I'm excited about.
Like I want to be the guy that'sfreaking competing in the Master
60 plus category and also still doing Open because I look good
enough to compete and open, you know?

(38:06):
Absolutely. I mean, if you can carry that
high of a level of health in theyear 50 sixties, I mean, like in
the US alone, you're starting tosee health declines for, for men
in their late 30s now, but maybeeven mid 30s, like serious
health issues starting to occur earlier and earlier.

(38:27):
I mean, I, I think it's, it's a reflection of how little
education we're given in schoolson nutrition and and Wellness in
general. I mean, I'm sure you took health
classes in school, but the knowledge that you have now,
like the base of that knowledge did not come from that education
in school That came from you, You having a motivation to get

(38:49):
that that education on your own.Yeah, people got to take
initiative in their health. I mean, they just, you know,
look to their primary care doc. It's like no one's going to care
much about your health as you are.
So like you've got to owner takeownership in that and take the
sacrifice or do whatever you gotto do to make that a priority
because we're only given we're only blessed with one body.

(39:10):
Like you got 11 rodeo and it's like you got to you got to
capitalize. You want to last.
More than 8 seconds, man. Yeah, man, for sure.
It's just sad because like I seeso many people and a lot of
people, like I get accused of taking steroids all the time on
Twitter especially. They're really brutal on
Twitter. But it's like people have this

(39:31):
misconception about what the human body is truly capable of
when all the excuses are removed.
And it's like, we can do such amazing things naturally if
you've got the right mentality, you got the right daily habits
and routines, and you let that compound over enough time.
It's like people sell themselvesshort far too easily.
But I mean, like, natural bodybuilding is a great

(39:51):
illustration for what's possibleif you play the long game and
you do it right. Absolutely.
And, and I think that's one of the things that that's most
exciting about the sport of natural bodybuilding that it
doesn't get enough appreciation for is.
The people that compete as natural bodybuilders are going
to be some of the healthiest people walking this Earth and

(40:13):
they're offseason and the on season, like we talked about
you, you're going to have some, some hormonal changes and, and
your body's definitely not performing at its absolute peak,
but that's going to be when you're losing fat anytime your
body's going to have to adjust continuously.
But in in their offseason, natural bodybuilders will be
some of the healthiest people walking this planet.

(40:35):
Yeah, I totally agree. And I feel like, you know,
people give Flack sometimes natural bodybuilders because
it's like, oh, you know, your when your testosterone is that
low, when you're that lean, it'sobviously not healthy.
And and they're right, it's not healthy from an optimal
standpoint. But I would argue that the
psychological benefit in health that comes from that outweighs
the negatives. Like it's a net positive from a

(40:56):
overall health standpoint when you factor that into the
equation. Yeah, and I think during Prep,
you get the opportunity to learneven more about your health.
Your body is the most sensitive it will be to anything you
consume. So you can learn what things
your body likes and dislikes andmaybe make changes that can
optimize your health coming out of Prep too.
Like if there are foods that youyou may have tried to

(41:18):
incorporate in your prep that your body doesn't respond to
well when you're that sensitive,maybe you could carry even less
inflammation during your offseason if you avoid that food
completely. Yeah, being being that depleted
is kind of like being a type 1 diabetic.
Like you can eat something and then know immediately how it
responds in your body from a glucose standpoint.
It's kind of the same thing whenyou're that depleted.
It's like, like I could eat halfof an avocado and tell you

(41:41):
exactly how my body responds to it within 30 minutes.
And like, I would never have hadthat inside had I not gone
through a prep, you know? Exactly.
I, I mean, you get to learn so much about your body, about
life, about what drives you, about what you value.
I mean, there's just so much netpositive from going through that

(42:04):
self-inflicted hardship and you,you come out mentally tougher,
but you come out smarter about yourself.
You value different things in life.
You value things more. You might cut something out
completely. It's it.
There's just so much net positive from it that unless you
experience it, it's really kind of hard to put into perspective.

(42:26):
It is. It is.
You got a girlfriend, wife or you do all this solo?
Solo I one bedroom apartment St.Louis MO single.
That that's probably, I don't know, like I, I've done preps
before I met my wife and then I've done preps when we were
dating and now married. And it's like now I feel lucky

(42:47):
because she literally like I give her my macros and she'll
cook all my meals, which is super handy.
But man, it's, it's tough when you've got other people like in
your innermost circle, like in your home and you're going
through a prep because it's it'skind of a selfish sport in a lot
of ways. And you got to have people that
are 100% on board with it for that time period for sure.

(43:07):
It's almost like raising a kid. I mean, it takes a village.
I mean, I know that's like a common anecdote for for raising
a baby, but when you're a truck,you're kind of a baby.
You, you, like you said, you're a little selfish.
You got to do what's right for you.
Otherwise it can throw off your entire prep your entire season.

(43:27):
So you got to prioritize yourself a lot more than you
would throughout the rest of theyear.
Like for your with your meal timing, for example, I I would
tell my family I can't go out todinner with you at this
restaurant. However, if you eat at home or
if you're eating at home, I eat at this time.

(43:49):
I can bring my food and if you're eating, I'll eat with you
so we can still share a meal together.
I just can't eat what you're eating and I can't go out to a
restaurant because I I can't handle the temptation.
I don't want to be sitting therewatching people eat good food
and I can't bring my own food and obviously so.
Now I'm that weird guy that has been known to bring Tupperware's
into restaurants. You know, like sometimes.

(44:10):
Which restaurants are letting you do that?
Man, I need to find those placesand tell my family to go there.
Well, I don't know, maybe it's the look I've got on my face
when they come up and ask me what I'm eating.
I'm like, man, I'm in, I'm in prep right now.
I just like explain it to them, I guess, and they understanding.
But yeah, it's a it's a sacrifice for sure, man.
But I feel like just as in prep,you know, it's not obviously the

(44:30):
epitome of health, but the offseason is for natural
athletes. I feel like in prep is obviously
very selfish for that acute period of time.
But like, the macro impact of this lifestyle is incredibly
selfless, because taking care ofyour own body and physical
well-being allows you to contribute more to those around

(44:52):
you in a way that wouldn't be possible if this wasn't made a
priority. Oh, absolutely.
I think one of the things that I, I tried to describe it to, to
one of my friends that was interested in competing, he
hasn't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm, I'm pushing them a
little bit. I told him during my offseason,

(45:12):
I wake up every single day motivated with energy, ready to
take on anything. And it's a completely different
life than when you're in prep because, yeah, you can change
your meal timing a little bit. It's not going to have as much
of an effect. But you're also probably eating
6-7 times a day in your offseason.
So it's, I mean, your timing isn't going to be quite as

(45:33):
important. You're still getting plenty of
nutrients, but you can do so much more when you have that
extra energy and you wake up feeling good because you know
what it's like to not have that energy.
And you're like, oh, I feel great.
I can take on anything, anything.
What do you need? I can help you.
I've got plenty of time, plenty of energy.
Let's let's let's get it done. Yeah, 100%.

(45:55):
Ma'am, what was your? So you did the four shows this
season where you pretty much dialed in post show nutrition
wise after the first three showsand then kind of had a
celebratory meal after this lastone?
Or had you structure then? So I did 1 celebratory meal
after the first show. First time ever competing and I
had three weeks in between so I did.

(46:17):
I went to Texas Roadhouse with my family, went a little crazy,
lost a little bit of definition,took about a full week to
recover from it in terms of of getting the getting all the
definition back, losing the inflammation from the sodium
intake. Then after the second, so the

(46:38):
second show, I won my first pro card in the USPF.
So I had a little bit of a celebration after that.
Again, it took about five days recover from that one because I,
I was like, I got a show next week and can't be that bad.
And then after that third show, I didn't do any sort of

(46:59):
celebration. I was like, last show coming up,
WNBF pro card on the line, got to stay focused, stay locked in.
And then I went to the Purple cow after getting the WNBF pro
card and they have an Elvis sandwich on their kids menu.
So like the fried bananas with peanut butter and honey and I
had them make that on a burger bun and had a a 1 LB of ground

(47:23):
beef in between that sandwich. Nice, nice.
How much did your weight jump upafter that?
I went up 5 lbs that day after and that included like the drive
home. Yeah, but I mean, I ate a lot of
sweet potato fries and French fries as well and then went down

(47:45):
2 lbs over the next day. So I held on to about 3 lbs.
But I went straight into my diet, eating a lot more food
each meal, 5 meals a day still. And then honestly, two days
later I texted my coach at about10 PMI was like, man, I'm
staying up later because I'm notlifting in the morning.
So I'm waking up later. I'm starving.

(48:07):
Like is it can I get us? Can I, can we add the 6th meal
now? Because I, I am and metabolism
ramps up. Man, you just ravenous.
Oh my gosh, I've, I can't, I felt more hungry that night than
I did during my entire prep. I was like, we, we got to do
something. I can't feel like this every
night because I mean, you do, you do gain a lot of mental

(48:30):
toughness when you're hungry. You learn to, to combat it.
You're like, you either drink some water, chew some gum.
You you find something that you can do that keeps you from from
breaking down and cheating on your on your meal plan.
My hack is I'll go to Sonic and I'll get like their big old cup
of ice and then I'll get some like a stir water enhancer like

(48:51):
Mio or something like that and squirt it in there and just eat
that ice. That's like my hunger hack when
I'm deep in prep. Oh man that Sonic's ice is so
good. I know exactly what you're
talking about. Man I chew so much gum now it's
it's ridiculous. I have like 4 different flavors
sitting on the counter. I'm like I.

(49:12):
Couldn't, I couldn't do anymore.I had to give up gum because I
become like a chain chewer man. Like I was just addicted to gum
and I would go through four or five packs a day and I'm like,
this is obnoxious. I can't do, I can't just can't
do gum anymore. That's about where I'm at right
now. I'm not going to lie to you.
That's a lot of gum. Yeah, I'm, I'm travelling this
week with my family, going on vacation.

(49:33):
So I'm, I'm my goal is to only pack a couple packs of gum and
not go buy any while I'm out. So that would kind of break the
habit a little bit. Do you feel like the reverse
diet post show, you know, phase is more taxing or less taxing

(49:54):
than the prep itself? Because I feel like a lot of
competitors, first time competitors especially they'll,
you know, stay on top of their nutrition for the most part, get
dialed in. But then after that show is over
and they don't have that like tangible goal on the calendar,
it's like very easy for them to totally go off the rails, put on
more weight than they desire andit just beating themselves up
internally. You know, mentally, I think it

(50:16):
is definitely hard. Like when you're in prep, you
know, like you got that show coming up.
You know that you cannot cheat on your diet or it will affect
the way that you look on stage and in the in your reverse diet,
like you said, you don't have a show coming up.
There's no sort of tangible goal.
You just want to try to to gain weight slowly and healthfully

(50:38):
and get your body back functioning essentially as
perfect as can be so that you can potentially put on muscle if
that's your goal or, or stay sort of that baseline, whatever
your goal is. But putting on weight slowly and
in control is so hard to do. You like, you know, you don't

(50:58):
have that show coming up. So yeah, if you cheat, it's not
going to have the same effect. But still, it's, it could cause
a lot of harm to your body because you're absorbing those
potentially unhealthy nutrients that that you don't want yet
because your body is still supersensitive until you've what I
think it could be up up to threemonths even for a reverse to get

(51:21):
rid of that sensitivity you had during prep to like to sodium,
to carbs, to fats, whatever whatever macronutrient or
micronutrient it may be that your body responds to the most.
You you got to really ease into it because your body is still
absorbing everything. Yeah, when I was coming out of
my last prep, like I was like super dialed in for like two or

(51:43):
three months. And there's like this Goldilock
phase that I think last about two months where you can kind of
get away with a lot nutrition that you probably shouldn't be
as aggressive on. But it doesn't really
instantaneously get reflected inyour physique.
As long as you're not just totally going off the deep end
and you like fill out, you look jacked, you got energy.
But like that only lasts for a few, you know, brief periods of

(52:06):
time and that after that, if youcontinue those habits, like it's
just going to spill over and you're going to look terrible
afterwards. So you got to like hone in on
that. So I was like pretty well dialed
for like the next two or three months, any of the post show.
And I kept my nutrition quality totally on point, but I just was
ravenous, man. My metabolism was through the
roof, so I was eating like 6000 calories of just 100% grass

(52:30):
finished beef, you know, like nothing, nothing crazy, just
like really high quality stuff, but like a ton of it.
That's what I that's why I got up to 200 lbs and I'm like, OK,
I probably don't need 6000 calories of beef everyday, you
know? Yeah, I one of the things that
I've been trying to keep in my mind to keep me level headed and
not go off the deep end is your prep is a reflection of your

(52:50):
offseason. So you can only achieve the best
look possible during your prep that you gave yourself the
ability to do during your offseason.
Like if you're dirty in your offseason, you gain too much
weight, you might have a little extra skin on your stomach and
that's going to show on stage orit's going to be that much more
grueling of a prep. If you put on a little bit too

(53:12):
much weight and you have more fat to lose, it's going to take
a larger toll on your body both mentally and physically.
You're going to have a little bit less energy and it's going
to be you're going to have to bein prep a little longer.
So that's, that's what I'm trying to keep in my head is OK,
if I want to look my absolute best in my shows next year, I

(53:33):
want to be locked into my offseason too.
And yeah, I can when my body's less sensitive, I'll be able to
go off diet a little more often or eat a couple extra bites of,
of whatever food is in my meal plan and it won't have this
profound of an effect. But right now, like your body's
just going to absorb everything.So if you, if you do that 6000

(53:54):
calories of ground beef, even though it's super clean, super
healthy and it's good for you, it's still going to have an
impact because you're holding onto those nutrients because your
body's still kind of in that, OK, I'm not being starved
anymore, but I'm going to hold on to these nutrients because I
don't know if I'm going to be starved again.
Totally. Totally.
And I feel like to like you're aprofessional athlete now, man.
And I feel like when I got that pro card, it's OK.

(54:17):
It just changed the way you think.
It's OK if I'm a professional athlete.
I need to be conducting myself as a professional athlete and
that means not eating like an ass year round.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's your, your prep is
going to be a reflection of youroffseason, regardless of you're
a pro or not. If you want to get to a pro
level, which I don't even like, I, I still doesn't feel real to

(54:38):
me. I, I, I don't know if there's
just like I'm going to wake up 1morning and I'm going to be
like, man, I'm a pro athlete. It's still kind of, it's surreal
really. But I think it again, it's that
intrinsic motivation is I want to look my absolute best and in
order to do that I got to be at my best even when I'm I don't

(55:02):
have a show on plan yet. Yeah, 100% man, it's you against
you. And I honestly professional
aspect of it like like people that are competing for the first
time that I've had this, this goal of getting a pro card,
getting a pro card, but then youactually get a pro card doesn't
like change anything. I mean, it can change your
psychology around it depending on what approach you take, but

(55:23):
it's like there's not any reallymoney in the sport of natural
bodybuilding. So it's like you're doing this
for money. It's like this is a vehicle that
you can leverage to be the best version of yourself.
And you can do that whether you're an amateur or a pro.
Being a pro just allows you to do it against a higher caliber
athletes as a competitor. But it's like you got to have
that innate desire to just perform at your peak all the

(55:46):
time, year round, no questions asked, regardless, You know,
that's the key. Yeah, it's that you show up and
do your best and everything thatyou do.
And you can ask more from yourself, but you need to make
sure that you're capable of showing up and being your best.
And if you don't have that in inthe back of your head when
you're making these decisions, like, oh, I'm going to go grab

(56:07):
this off the shelf at the supermarket.
I mean, then it's going to show on stage.
You got to have that in your head year round.
And that that's what it is just in everything that you do show
up and be your best because it'sgoing to it's going to play an
impact, have an impact. 100%, ma'am.
So tentatively you're going to compete again in 2026 and then

(56:30):
2028 maybe. Yeah, that's the plan as of now.
The two years off is like we talked about just get my body
really healthy for an extended period and then try to pack on
some size that you. I mean, I think that's one of
the cool things about the sport is like the jump from the
amateur to the pro level is not just like, oh, you're not just

(56:54):
going to the next level. It is a massive jump.
If you wish to place at the pro level, you have to bring your A
game, absolutely. And you have to be bigger and
better than you ever thought youcould be if you want to place.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, man.
Like when I did worlds, it's just like a whole another
caliber. Like you go to an amateur show

(57:15):
and you might have some guys with great genetics.
They have some like guys that are super condition.
You may guys have some guys thatare like just jacked out of
their minds but maybe not lean enough.
Whereas like on the the world stage, it's like that's
literally the best in the entireworld.
Like nobody on that stage is lacking condition.
Like that's not an excuse there.Yeah, these guys are bringing
the best package they could possibly bring every single show

(57:39):
they show up to. And I mean, and you're, you're
looking at guys that could be inprep.
They might be prepping for eightmonths because they've been
doing this for so long. They know exactly what their
body needs. They have the perfect formula
and and they know how to make the tweaks to their formula from
year to year, make the adjustments quickly so that they
are as conditioned as could possibly be, as lean as they

(58:01):
could possibly be and still makeit on that stage and nail their
posing. And yeah, I mean, you're truly
competing against guys that havelittle to no weakness when you
get to the to the world's level.And making that jump from from
amateur to Pro is is no small thing like you.
You have to put in the work to do that.
Absolutely. Real quick about training.

(58:23):
How do you structure your training?
You pretty much, you know, old school simple compound movements
like how, how do you have that structure?
So pretty old school on the splits, you know, hit everything
once a week based on judges feedback.
I've tried to throw throw in a little bit extra like maybe hit
hit my quads a little bit on my handy and glute day, hit my side

(58:45):
delts 2 three times a week instead of just on shoulder day.
But no, I I really try to focus on staying healthy, protecting
my joints, but still targeting individual muscles.
So it ends up being a lot of plate loaded machines with just
absolutely insane amounts of weight because I mean, if you're

(59:08):
doing a plate loaded machine, you're isolating the muscle that
that machine supposed to hit andyou're protecting your joints a
little bit than if you were justdoing free weights.
But obviously you can't totally escape like dumbbells and and
and exercise and isometric exercises.
What kind of set Rep scheme are you typically targeting?
So I'm typically doing 3-4 sets of of any given exercise, 10 to

(59:32):
20 reps, you know, pretty old school in that, you know, get
the hypertrophy. Yeah, like I do like 4 sets like
1512108, getting progressively heavier with each set, like
basic stuff. But it's like it works, and you
don't have to reinvent the way Ifeel like a lot of people
overthink training. And especially now with the
Internet, like, there's all these really cool, overly hyped,

(59:54):
really well done, edited, you know, training technique videos.
And it's like in there and move some shit around and don't hurt
yourself and do it hard and frequently.
And you're probably going to be all right.
Yeah. I think that's the key is like
one, don't get hurt. Number one rule, do not hurt
yourself #2 just lift the weight.

(01:00:14):
I mean, you, you, you see the old Ronnie Coleman saying
everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but that nobody
wants to lift this heavyweight. I mean, you do have to lift
heavy and you got to get uncomfortable with it.
But number one rule still don't get hurt.
Yep, Yep. You get hurt.
I mean, shoot, you're out of Commission for who knows how

(01:00:35):
long, and then you're just lacking the frequency there.
I feel like, you know, I used tobe like an ego lifter, Like I'd
be in college lifting and I'd bejust swinging weight around,
doing half reps on squats of five plates.
And now it's like I've put more emphasis on, you know, full
range of motion, just really having complete control.
I mean, like to me, I'll be doing sets of, you know, 315 on
squats. And that to me now with the

(01:00:58):
range of motion I'm doing is more impressive than me doing 4
plates, you know, half Rep in it.
It's like you got to have the range of motion, but if you're
activating the muscle with that range of motion and you're fully
engaging everything, you're not risking injury.
Like you can make pretty much anything work, but obviously
going heavy as intensely as you can as long as you're not
sacrificing form. I think another aspect on top of

(01:01:22):
that is having a good mind muscle connection.
Feeling the muscle that you're trying to work with the movement
is going to be so important because you can get so much more
out of that lift by doing a little less weight.
If you can feel the muscle that you want to contract, that you
want to isolate throughout the entire range of motion, you're

(01:01:45):
just going to gain so much more benefit from doing 10 reps with
with maybe 2/3 of the weight as opposed to five reps with with
some real heavyweight that you shouldn't be touching.
Yeah, totally. I'll throw in some like like I'm
doing deadlifts, I'll throw in acouple, you know, final sets at
like 2 to 4 reps just pushing it.
But then everything building up to that's a higher Rep count

(01:02:08):
just to keep things interesting and see kind of how that Max
strength goes. But.
You got to, I mean, that keeps it a little fun.
You got to have a little fun with it.
It's not like, again, as long asyou're not getting hurt, you
can, you can do things like that.
For sure we got to get some together some time and get a
lift in. Man, I feel like I always, you
know, I just want to like connect people and and get a
workout. You can tell a lot about a

(01:02:28):
person based on how they work out.
Oh absolutely. I there's people that like to
chat a little bit too much. There's people that keep their
head down and just work their butts off, and you can find a
full range in between. I mean, you tell a lot about a
person by how hard they're working during their workouts,
but you see a natural bodybuilder in the gym and you
can point them out immediately. Yeah, for sure, For sure, man.

(01:02:51):
Well, I know I can't talk into doing my show in September, but
you got to at least come down toit and attend it, man.
Like it's going to be a good, good vibe.
We're going to barbecue there. It'll be great.
Because you're in Saint Louis, you said, right?
Yeah, Saint Louis oil that be about a 4/4 hour drive.
Yeah, about four. I drive.
I got another clown of mine coming from Saint Louis,
actually. That's up there.

(01:03:11):
So so yeah, it'll be, it'll be agood, good job, man.
I feel like the more we can do to get natural bodybuilding
known, especially in like Arkansas, which is where we're
at. I mean, the Debian BF is
typically on the coast, like north or South Coast, not South
Coast, East Coast, West Coast. There's not a whole lot Central
and Central America. So trying to get it more in

(01:03:31):
these central states. And I think that's the key.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and anything to grow the
sport is going to be a benefit to everyone else that's already
in the sport. I mean, if if you can make the
sport itself bigger, get more money in the sport in general,
it's going to benefit everyone that's already involved as well.
Yeah, the more exposure the better because then everybody's

(01:03:54):
motivated to be healthier, whichis a win for society, Yeah.
I mean, at the at the end of theday, that's a golf.
I can motivate one person to live a healthier life.
Then then I've done my job. Absolutely ma'am.
Well Josh, you're a beast. It was awesome to to see you
compete and step on stage and take the title 2 weeks back man,
I'm excited for your future in the sport like 29 years old

(01:04:15):
looking like you did, like you got nothing to do but get keep
getting better man so I'm excited for you.
I. Appreciate it man, it was great
meeting you. I had a blast at the show.
I can't tell you how many peoplethat I've I've connected with
that I'm talking to on an almostdaily basis now.
It's it's been great all around great experience.
So thank you and no, it was great.

(01:04:35):
Great hopping on the podcast andchatting with you about natural
bodybuilding. A. 100% man, where do people go
to find out more about you and dive into your world?
You can find me on Instagram at Jet Set Jim Josh, and that's Jim
with AJ. So three JS Jet Set, Jim, Josh.
Jet set Jim, Josh a tongue twister man, can't say that
three times fast. Well, sweet brother, I'll link

(01:04:57):
after that, make it easy for people to find you.
Let's definitely keep the conversation going.
If you ever find yourself in Arkansas, man, hit me up.
We'll get a lift in. Absolutely sounds great.
If you find yourself in Saint Louis, do the same.
I'll do it, brother. Take care, ma'am.
You as well.