Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Well, hello ladies and gents. Robert Sykes, Keto savage.com.
Today I've got special guest Josh Kenyon on the line.
He is a natural bodybuilder and we dive deep into the world of
natural bodybuilding. He did a prep in 2023.
We talked about that. We talked about eating disorder,
something he and I both strugglewith.
He is following a traditional carbohydrate based protocol.
We talked about that. We talked about meal prep, meal
(00:20):
planning, training, intensity training, duration, training
volume, all kinds of things. Anything related to natural
bodybuilding, we dive into it sothoroughly.
Enjoy the conversation. I've always enjoyed talking with
other natural bodybuilders, people that are in the space,
people that are competitors and people that are living the
lifestyle and he is doing it just that.
So I got a ton of respect for him, ton of respect for what
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he's doing, and I'm excited to see his journey unfold, see him
compete again potentially in 2026.
So sit back, relax, enjoy the conversation with Josh.
You're live, Josh. How are you, brother?
(01:02):
Good man, how are you doing? I'm good, I'm good.
So you, I've been following you on Instagram.
I don't even know for how long. When I did my prep last year, I
just started like seeing all these recommended pages for
people that were, you know, natural bodybuilders as well.
And you, you kept popping up andI, man, this guy's freaking
yoked. So I followed you and here we
are. But when was your when is your
(01:23):
next prep season man, do you know?
I'm not, well, I'm not 100%. It's not, it's not 100% set in
stone. But you know, I've been thinking
2025. That's that's like the tentative
plan right now. You know, it's subject to change
for me, but that's that's the tentative plan is 2025.
(01:48):
I like it, I like it. What was the last round of
competitions you did? So yeah, so actually it's almost
been a whole year now. It's crazy.
It was last July 2023. I did the Muscle Mayhem.
It's a INBF show in Sacramento, CA and Natural Muscle Mayhem.
(02:10):
So I just did that show and it was for me, Yeah, I'll go on to
it a little later, but it was after like a five year break,
you could say. So it was only.
So I ended up doing. That's good though man.
I think a lot of people in the space compete far too
frequently, so I respect when people take ample time off in
(02:32):
between competitive season. I think that makes, especially
as a natural athlete, I think that makes like the the most
sense for sure. Yeah, 100%, man.
Give me some back story on on you in in bodybuilding in
general, man. Like how long have you been
doing it? How how long have you known that
you were wanting to go the natural route?
Like what's what's compelling about that?
Just kind of give me some back story.
(02:54):
OK, So yes, I started lifting really young.
I was 13. You know, I was in middle school
and I was at a point where we'reprobably like a lot of younger
guys get to, you know, where they are like, you know,
becoming a teenager, insecure about themselves and they think
(03:16):
that, you know, having some muscles going to like change
things, you know. So that was where I was at and I
started just lifting at my house.
I had, you know, there was like a little bit of equipment.
We had some dumbbells, like a little weight set at the time I
was using and eventually I got like a pull up bar.
I got a whole like adjustable squat rack, bench and whatnot,
(03:40):
some, you know, some free weights.
And so basically, yeah, I, you know, I got into it a little
more over time and like throughout high school or well,
middle school, high school, I was just, you know, consistently
with the thing I got, you know, more immersed into it.
And so I started, you know, justresearching people on YouTube
(04:02):
and really just like exercises, you know, trying to learn like
how to, you know, train certain body parts and how to set up
like a split and everything. So that's, you know, kind of
like the early part of the YouTube fitness era, you could
say like the OG era back then. But that was, yeah, that was how
I learned and I got more into it.
You know, when I started learning more from people,
(04:23):
following more people, it was more so initially just for me
to, you know, put on some musclejust being like a, you know, a
teenager. But when I got more into it, I,
you know, I started following more people that were, you know,
doing bodybuilding. And actually a lot of the first
people I followed were natural lifters.
And so really from the start, I got more immersed into the
(04:47):
natural game versus the other side, which I feel like it's,
you know, different for a lot ofpeople.
Usually people will get immersedin the enhanced side, you know,
and don't know much about natural bodybuilding.
But for me, some of the first people I followed were natural
bodybuilders. So, you know, yeah, I, I never
even thought about going the other way.
(05:07):
But it was, again, it wasn't even to compete, it was just to
put on muscle. But when I got more into it, you
know, that's when I started, like I said, following these
natural bodybuilders. And I had the thought of like,
you know, maybe one day I'll tryit out.
And yeah, I went through a high school.
I graduated high school and after that time I was just
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eating and lifting, you know, I was just eating and lifting.
I wasn't dieting or anything. So I basically was like, you
know, started at 13, but they'reall throughout high school.
The whole time I was just putting out weight, you know,
and of course you're growing as a kid still at that time too.
But I wasn't, you know, trying to diet or be shredded or
anything like that. It was me starting from a really
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skinny kid to just, you know, trying to get bigger.
And so I just ate and lifted andI got up to like for me, my
heaviest when I graduated high school, I was like 210, which
that was like the, that was actually the baddest I've ever
been. It was actually that period of
time. That's the most body that I
probably ever had. But I got to that point, you
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know, I went off to college and I had it.
I thought my mind was like, you know, it would be really cool to
do a, you know, to, to try out acompetition.
And like I said, I was followingthese natural bodybuilders and I
started following people like Matt Ogus and I learned about
through him, these coaches, teamthree DMJ.
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So you know, they coach natural athletes.
And so around that time, you know, I was following them as
well and I started learning a lot from them.
But once I decided like, hey, you know what, maybe I, you
know, maybe I should give this competing thing a shot at least
once just to see if I would likeit.
I I thought about, you know whatI want to work with them, so I
(06:56):
reached out to three DMJ and, you know, I started working with
them. So I kind of went from just
doing this five year Volt being a teenager, just lifting and
eating to now I'm going to jump into a contest prep.
So that's basically what happened.
I was 18 at the time. I started like my first prep and
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out. Yeah, you know, I died it down
and it was a it was an experience.
You know, I didn't really know what I was getting into.
I never tracked macros, I'd never cut.
I'd never done a diet, you know.And so I did my first show,
which was the same show I did last year, actually.
It was the California Natural Muscle Mayhem and I and BF show,
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and that was 2018. So I was 19 and I, yeah, I did
my first show there. I won the open middle weight
class, the junior class. I was actually going to do the
team class, but I was going to be the only team to do it.
So I was like, you know what, let's just jump up.
But I almost won my pro part there.
(08:03):
I I, I, you know, battled in theoverall and I fell short.
So that happened, you know, but it was an awesome experience,
Super, super cool experience. And I just, you know, I took
time off after that and I was planning to come back in 2020
and compete. And, you know, when my pro car
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did, that was really the goal. And so, yeah, I took time off
after that. That was 2018, you know, when I
competed and then I took time off and I was going to come back
in 2020. I was prepped, you know, I was
prepping throughout the earlier part of 2020.
And then, you know, COVID hit and I was not in a good place
mentally at the time. I was in college and just had a
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lot of mental health issues, man.
And I ended up having an eating disorder, you know, and that
really affected me during that prep really severely.
And on top of just with the COVID thing and having to go
leave home or leave college, I had to go back home to stay with
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family and just prepping. And it was not a good situation
for me, man. And I got to a point where I
just, you know, we just ended the prep and I've really gotten
really lean really early in the prep, too.
And that looking back, it probably wasn't ideal either.
(09:33):
But, you know, things happen andthere was miscommunication
because I was, you know, struggling during the prep and I
wasn't being open about it. I didn't really even know why I
was struggling so much at the time.
But it was really because I had,like I said, an eating disorder.
I didn't really know it, but that happened.
That was a really bad experiencefor me.
(09:53):
And after that, that's when I just was taking time off of, you
know, competing. And I really thought I would not
even do another show. I thought, you know, I was, I
was just still lifting some, butI, I thought maybe competing
wasn't really for me after that experience.
And so it wasn't until 2021 where I reached out to, you
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know, a coach I respected. And it was more so a situation
where I thought that, you know, maybe there's still more
potential for me to still, you know, improve.
I wasn't necessarily thinking about stepping on the stage
again, but it was about, you know, maybe I could still, you
know, just to improve my physique more, you know, improve
(10:39):
my training. You know, I had never worked
with somebody. I had never had anybody like
take over my training before. Even when I, you know, prepped
in 2018 and 2020, it was just, you know, for the prep.
But for off seasons, you could say like outside of that, I
always did my own thing, you know, with training.
So I thought, like, man, you know what, it would be kind of
(11:02):
cool to try a different approachbecause I knew, you know, this
guy, his approach was different.And I had never trained that way
before. More like a low volume, higher
intensity style of training. But yeah, I just reached out to
him and we started working together.
And again, it was just, yeah, with with training and
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everything. It wasn't like I was planning to
get back on stage. But, you know, that was 2021.
And then things just, yeah, progressed.
And I just, you know, made improvements and was moving
forward really well. I've got in a better place
mentally, you know, and we got to a point in 2022 where it was
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like, you know, we could really do this thing, You know, we
could potentially really go through a prep, you know, and
even at the time, I was still not really sure how it was going
to go just because how bad the previous experience was for me.
But you know, I trusted this guyman, and we, yeah, we started
the prep and they were, you know, Fast forward 2023, you
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know, I came back and, you know,won my pro card at that same
show. So it was like a super just big
win for me, you know, really mentally, man, like because I
lost a lot of confidence and then I regained a lot of that
man, because I genuinely even atthe start of the prep, didn't
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even know like if I could really, you know, go through
that prep and bring the physiqueI wanted to bring, but I was
able to do it. So yeah, that's that was I guess
a long recap of my lifting career or lifting history so
far. No, I love it, man.
How old are you, Josh? 25. 25 that's the same man
(12:52):
'cause you got like, I mean, yougot some density on your friend,
like you got, you got some thickness, a lot of muscle
density. I mean 25 like there's no reason
you couldn't go as far as you wanted to go with the sport.
So that, that's exciting that you get that confidence regain
that you're ready to rock'n'roll.
I mean, that's, that's, that's encouraging for sure.
I definitely want to peel the curtain back on a lot of stuff
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because a lot of similarities. I feel like a lot of people that
get into bodybuilding get into it for the right of the same
reasons like you, you, you know,are small, you're scrawny.
You want to get, you know, impressive physique for the
ladies in high school. Like I started lifting in high
school as well. And like, I was super small,
man. I was 115 lbs when I started
working out and I bulked up to 230.
(13:32):
So kind of same situation as you.
The fattest I've ever been was when I was not having a clue
what I was doing, trying to eat big to get big.
And it's like you're just delusional at that point.
Like you're too young to know the difference and you just
assume that you can put on all this muscle and you're getting
strong because when you got hormones at that age, I mean,
everything's working like it should, but you put on a ton of
unnecessary body fat that you didn't have to die it off.
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It's like you don't know what you don't know at that stage.
But pretty similar story as well.
And I'm right there with the only eating disorders too, man.
Like my first prep, I went from 2:30 to 1:50 in 12 weeks and I,
I won the show, but man, I was so messed up mentally after that
because like after the show was over, I went out and ate all
(14:15):
kinds of food, put on like 20 lbs overnight and I was just
totally distraught. I feel like I thrown away
everything I've worked so hard for and my relationship with
food was like jacked up for three or four years after that.
So I can totally relate with youthere too.
Yeah, man, I think that's a pretty common, pretty common
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thing. And especially with, with, with
people who prep, you know, so. What is the?
What do you think like when you're going through a prep and
you're struggling with this wordy?
Like for you, was it more so theprep itself, you start
struggling with things? Or is it like post prep, post
show when it's all over and you're like in reverse that
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stages and the finish lines cross, so to speak.
Is that when you start struggling with food or how does
that manifest itself for you? Because it's something that I
don't think people talk about enough, but I think it needs to
be talked about. Yeah, well, so for me, what had
happened was I just had a bad relationship with food to start
with. And so I I came into a prep from
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a place where I didn't have a good relationship with food.
And so then going into a prep, you know, it just wasn't
probably ultimately the greatestidea.
But yeah, what would happen withme initially was like, yeah,
during the prep, it would happenwhere it really what happened
the first prep, you know, it waslike only a few times where I
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had, you know, just like a few moments or a few like days where
I had, you know, like AI had pretty much binged, you know, so
like I would have something basically be good.
And then it'd be like one day where, you know, maybe hunger
was higher or something. So maybe I had something that
(16:04):
was like not planned, you know, ate something that wasn't
planned or something. And then it's like it triggers
something in my head and just like pretty much like say, well,
the day is ruined, you know, andso I'm just going to eat
whatever. Kind of like this weird, weird
response there. And so like that had happened
like a couple times during my first prep, but it wasn't too
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severe. It was more so just right
towards the end of the prep and then the second prep, it just
got worse. You know, I think there was, I
got leaner sooner, you know, andthere was more stress in my life
at that time as well. And the combination of things
there, you know, it happened pretty much just earlier on at
the prep where it was like therewere moments where, you know,
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like I just ended up having something that was, you know,
not planned. You know, I didn't plan to eat
that for the day. And then after I would do that
knowing that like, I went off planets, like in my head, it was
just like this response where I just would completely go off,
you know, like, like, just because one thing I made one,
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you know, little misstep. It's like in my head, I thought
like the day was ruined or something.
So I would just, yeah, it was weird.
Like I'd be either 100% or else I've had those moments like
that. And it just got worse during
that prep, you know. And so yeah, that happened.
And then even even after the prep, it was, I had those
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moments too where, you know, puton a lot of weight posts to show
that was a lot of it too was like, you know, just not having
that that structure of the prep,you know, post show.
So I think that's like a big thing a lot of people struggle
with is like, you know, you haveso much structure in place
during the prep. And then, you know, when you're
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no longer, you no longer have this show that you're, you know,
getting ready for, it's like, you know, you just kind of throw
out that structure you don't have like, and that's that's
that was the biggest issue with me post show is just like, you
know, not having that same structure in place, you know.
But yeah, the disorder eating thing, man, it was like just
outside of the prep, you know, during those years, you know,
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just the way I was eating was a great man.
And I think a lot of it was due to those first five years of
lifting for me, man, where, you know, I was just like almost
force feeding myself during thatperiod of time.
For me, I was always because I came from a place where I was,
you know, a small guy, you know.And so it was, it was almost
this mindset where like at that time, you know, I'm never big
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enough, you know, you're never going to, you know, you're never
big enough. You got to, you got to keep, you
know, gaining more weight, you know, I got to keep putting on
more muscle. And so I would just, it was just
weird where I would just force myself to eat.
You know, I wasn't tracking calories or anything like that.
You know, when I was a teenager,it was like I was just still
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had, there was some structure tolike how many times I was eating
or whatever, you know, eating a lot of similar foods.
But it was like, I would genuinely like just force myself
every time I ate to eat as much as I could, you know.
And there, I mean, there have been times during, during those
years where, you know, I had like thrown up after meals and
stuff. It was just kind of, we are
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looking back. But like I, yeah, that's what I
was doing for so many years. And so it was like, I never knew
what it was even like to be hungry.
I didn't even know, like, what it felt like to be hungry until
I, you know, dieted for this, for this show, to be honest, and
for my first show. And so, yeah, just years of
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that, even after the first prep,you know, I was still eating
very similar. And it wasn't until, you know,
that that the 2021 time where I,you know, I started working with
my coach, AJAJ Morris. And you know, I was, you know.
Mindful of everything, you know,like it was just more so being
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attention with what I was eating, how much I was eating in
the offseason, you know, I was tracking everything.
Then I was eating specific meals.
I pretty much ate the same 5 meals every day during that's
from 2021 to 2023. But I just had structure in
place, you know, and that made ahuge difference.
It made a massive difference. Like I can't even describe how
(20:31):
much of a difference that made. And like with that prep with
2023, because it's like going into the prep, it was, you know,
I felt like I was doing the samething we we had been doing even
prior to the prep. It was more so just like, OK,
now we're, you know, eating a little bit less, but I was
eating the same foods, you know,that I was eating before the
prep, you know, and the same structure was in place.
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So the relationship with food was so much better than and it,
and during the prep, I didn't have all these moments where
like I was craving things. I didn't have like all these
cravings during the prep. Man, that was another crazy.
That was another really big thing for me was not like
actually going to that prep and not having so many cravings.
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I think a lot of it too was because I changed how I was
eating, you know, like the firsttwo preps that was, it was more
so like that if it fits your macros approach where it was
kind of like I was just getting introduced to that and it was
like, OK, I'll just fit whateverI want to and I'm prepping, man.
And I was fit just ridiculous things in my macros at that
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time, like, and it was just for me, it wasn't great having that
approach, you know, and because it, what would happen was, you
know, when I would get leaner and hungrier, it's like, I
would, you know, want to try to like, oh, you know, you want to
always feel satiated during the prep.
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But I think a, a big thing is when you start a prep off, just
accepting that you're going to be hungry, you know, and you're
not going to be satiated after every meal And not having
eliminating that overthinking where you have so many options
of foods and whatnot. For me that helped like for me
(22:20):
following a meal plan during your prep, which is what I did
in 2023, that helped me a lot. You know, I just had Whole Foods
I was eating, I was eating 5 meals a day, same meals pretty
much every day. And it's like I went through
that prep and I didn't have any of those cravings, man.
Like any triggers like where in the past like I would have these
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triggers where like I would really crave something and then
like that might be impulsive andgo off plan or something like
that. It didn't happen.
And a lot of it too is, you know, managing stress better
too. There's there's a lot of other
things that you know, helped that too, but it was just
planned out really well too. That prep was planned out so, so
(23:04):
well. I think there's like, I totally
get the, the argument for, you know, if it fits your macros,
flexible dieting. And for some people it
definitely seems to work. But I think like, I'm in the
same boat as you, man. Like I when I'm in a prep, I eat
the same foods whether I'm in honestly a building phase or a
cut. It's just the amounts change.
And like I do like I, I flip a switch like it's the same foods.
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There's less room for decision fatigue because there's less
choices that have to be made. Like I know exactly what I'm
going to eat. It's already prepped and ready
to go. It takes that out of, it takes
that variable out of the equation altogether.
There's no question. And I think what gets people in
trouble is having too many options because like when you're
in a prep and you're hungry, I mean, you've, you've got a
finite amount of willpower each and every single day.
(23:50):
And if you're constantly giving yourself more options and
you're, you know, having to sacrifice things, say no to
things like that willpower tank gets depleted pretty quick.
Whereas if you start today knowing exactly what you're
going to eat, when you're going to eat it, and there's no
question about it, like you can just maintain the willpower
because there's never even an option in front of you.
And I think there's a lot to be said for that, for sure.
(24:13):
Yeah, that that's, I mean, I definitely agree with that man.
Like that. I mean, just for me, I can say
that made a huge difference. Like not overthinking yet.
Not like just, you know, having everything planned out too, you
know, like you know exactly whatyou're going to have for that
day and pretty much have your meals, you know, like when
you're going to have them too, like all those things like not
(24:35):
trying to freestyle it or anything like that, like that.
And that was something that madea big difference.
And I think that, you know, it'sfunny because a lot of, you
know, when you look at even the enhanced side and you look at
those guys when they're competing, I mean, they're not
typically following this if it fits your macros approach.
(24:57):
And it seems like there was just, there was just this point
in time where like that was sucha big deal in the like the, I
feel like, especially like the natural bodybuilding space.
But I think when it comes to actually competing and trying to
get, you know, because that's the thing you're, you know,
we're not trying to just be living a lifestyle.
(25:18):
And that when you're, when you're coming down to a
preference, like you're trying to get shredded glutes.
And so like this is not something that's sustainable.
So, you know, like if you're going in with that approach
where you're trying to like fit all these things in the macros,
it's just like some people, maybe they can do it, But for me
it was not the best move. Well, when you think about it
(25:40):
physiologically, like you, if you've only got so many calories
to work with, it makes sense to consume the most dent, nutrient
dense foods that are the most satiating, that provide the most
bang for the proverbial buck with those calories you have to
work with. And that is not likely going to
come in the form of many of the foods that are celebrated in the
(26:01):
flexible dieting approach. You know, like, like everybody
uses Pop Tarts as an example forthat demographic, but like, Pop
Tarts are not the most nutrient dense option.
They're just not. Yeah, 100%, yeah.
Like foods that are higher in fiber, just more micronutrient
densing. Yeah, you're not going to get a
lot of those from, you know, just trying to fit in the the
(26:22):
things that taste the best. I think.
I think that's a big thing too is, you know, like you're in the
prep and food starts to taste better, but you know, you can
get carried away with like firstof all, I would want to just so
much volume, but also like like,oh man, I want to have this
because it tastes really good. And I'm really, I feel like I've
(26:43):
been restricted and it's just, you know, mentally I think you
can just go down to bed, you know, rabbit hole there.
But it's just like, you know, you might be good to a point,
but then at some point you're inthe prep when you know, you are
not going to be satiated no matter what.
I think that's when it's an issue.
(27:04):
And then, yeah, I just think like there's certain like foods
like that that could just trigger something more, at least
for somebody who's got a historyof, you know, binge eating or
anything like that. I don't think that approaches at
all the best for someone like that.
No, I totally, completely agree man 100%.
Well, let's talk about some stats.
(27:25):
So you you're 25, how tall are you?
I I've been this fence forever since I've actually been
measured, but I always say 57. OK, I'm 57 as well.
So what about the same height? And what what is your weight
now? I am in the one 90s at the
moment. Nice, nice.
(27:45):
And when you compete. So I want to kind of talk about
the cause, like I'm the worst about stay on top of trending
events in social media right now.
But there seems to be this debate going on in natural
bodybuilding circle specificallyas to how much body fat is
optimal in a building phase. And you got people, you know,
(28:06):
different camps, different trains of thought.
And I've kind of done both. Like I I've got a little bit of
experience with both. So like your one 90s now, what
do you typically compete at weight wise and what's the
heaviest you feel comfortable getting up to in like your
building phase? So last year when I competed the
my lowest weigh in was one 65165Yep, 165.
(28:31):
And when I get to typically, youknow, but I'm like, you know,
like I would say around 2:10 or so, like that's, that's kind of
like that's really typically pushing it for me when I start
to get over 200 typically. Do you feel?
Like you're making gains at 2210, or do you feel like at
(28:53):
that point you kind of hit the point of diminishing returns and
like there's no really additional gain in lean tissue,
but you're just putting body faton at that point?
Well, see, it's like the struggle that would be for me at
that point. And you know, I get, I just get
to that point where it's like there's literally no appetite,
you know, and I'm already havingto be on very high calories.
(29:16):
Like. So just I want to say it was
around maybe 2022 or so, you know, some or there was some
point in time before, you know, I started actually dining or you
know, prepping and we had gottenup to I was like maybe 2O72O8 or
something and I was at that timeeating like 900 grams of carbs
(29:41):
Your. Total calories that that's body
weight. Like it was the worst thing
ever, like just for me to keep trying to, you know, trying to
push up. So basically, you know, it was
more so not even like that. I don't even like maybe I could
have continued to see in performance improve, but my body
did not want to get any heavier,you know, and like there would
(30:02):
be absolutely no appetite, like eating weigh over 5000 calories
a day, you know, I mean, when you do that every single day,
like over like 900 grams of carbs a day, it's for me, it was
miserable, man, like no appetite.
So that that would be, that's pretty much what became the
issue. There was like when we would try
(30:23):
to push up is, you know, get to a point where it's just like,
man, I just we can't, we can't get this food down, man at all
no matter what I try. And so that would kind of just
stop me from even being able to realistically push up more.
And what are your calories get down to like in your last prep
(30:44):
when you were 165 at your lowest?
Like obviously you get some refeeds and stuff during peak
week, but what are you typicallygoing down to as far as your
lowest calorie intake on average?
I, I want to say the lowest was maybe 17, like so basically I
had, you know, like my rest days, you know, my calories
(31:06):
would be a little bit lower versus the training day.
So I want to say maybe it was something like 1700 and rest
day. Maybe it was like the lowest and
then training days around 2000 or something like that.
Like the lowest, you know, I want to say something like that,
you know, And again, that was kind of like I was pretty much
(31:27):
just following the meal plan. So I wasn't even really paying
attention to the calories, but. Yeah, that makes sense.
And when you're at 210-2072 ten,what do you, what do you think
your body fat percentage is at that point?
Man, I don't really know right now.
You know, like at this point, you know, obviously like the
first time I got that heavy it was a bit different.
You know, now I've put on some more muscle, but I'm trying to
(31:54):
think, I mean 20, I don't know, maybe 20.
I mean like if I'm like 210 it'sgot to be like 20% at least.
Yeah, you're probably. What about 5?
Percent. It's hard to say, man.
It's funny because it's how I how I store my body fat.
People always assume that I'm leaner than I am just because of
(32:15):
how my body, you know, stores fat.
Yeah, now it's it's it's good though, man 'cause I feel like a
lot of people I'm I'm pretty much in the same window like I
typically get up to like right now I'm one 95196 and the lowest
I got this last prep man I had my lowest weighing was 151,
which is crazy crazy. I think my best look was
(32:39):
probably 157 one 58151. I was a little too depleted at
that point for worlds, but I'm probably 18% body fat now.
One 95196 and I'll get down, youknow, obviously pretty lean
during show day, but I think that's a super healthy window
man. Like there's people that are
trying to suggest that there's no benefit to going heavier on
(33:01):
the body fat, but like you don'twant to be hungry in a building
phase. And I feel like you just got to
learn to embrace the body fat that comes.
I think there's a lot of it's hard for bodybuilders,
especially because like you knowwhat you look like?
You know how to get freaking lean, and you'd love how you
look when you're freaking lean, but you got to recognize that
you can't get better if you're always that lean.
(33:21):
So you got to just embrace a healthy degree of body fat in
the building phase. And that's a hard thing to do
sometimes, you know? Yeah.
And, and I think, yeah, it's like you just got to, for me,
what would help the most, it's in my focus, you know, because
it's like you're in the crap. The focus is typically, you
know, you want to see visual changes over time, you know, and
(33:44):
so it's like in the prep, I typically will like detach more
from performance, not that I'm, you know, not wanting to retain
performance, but you know, they're getting there gets to be
points in in the prep where performance is not going up on
certain movements. And in fact, in a lot, in a lot
(34:05):
of the moves is maybe even goingdown, but you know, so it's like
I, I kind of had to detach from that side of things and focus
more on it's kind of like, OK, well, I'm visually improving.
That's what we want, you know, So when in the offseason for me
to what helps is like just detaching more from the physique
or the visual looking more so focusing on performance, you
(34:27):
know, where it's like, OK, I'm actually progressing in every
lift I'm doing, you know, over time, you know, I'm tracking my
my performance there. So that's like what I get more
focused on and that's helps me. That's why one thing I'm looking
at, I'm not, you know, taking asmany pictures of my physique at
(34:48):
that point. It's time, you know, it's just
focusing more on like if I actually improving, you know, in
the gym. Yeah, no, that's, that's 100%
the way to go, man. I feel you got to totally shift
your performance. Stop looking at the the lack of
vascularity and striations and just focus on the the numbers
you're pushing in the gym. How do you structure your
training typically? Are you doing like a, are you
still doing like the lower volume, higher intensity style
(35:11):
split or how do you have that structure?
Yeah, Yeah, I'm, I'm still training that way, which has
been that, that was since 2021. So like when I started working
with AJ, but that's when I firststarted doing that approach.
So like all throughout, you know, when I first started
lifting, you know, like the first set many years I had done
a more higher volume approach. So this was in the grand scheme
(35:34):
of things, relatively doer for me, but I'm still doing that
right now. And currently it's like a
somewhat like push, pull legs, but I have basically a rest day
before and after every leg session.
So push, pull off, legs off, push, pull off, legs off.
(35:55):
And so that's how it's set up. And I have, you know, two
different push sessions, two different pull, two different
leg sessions. I rotate through.
Nice. And how are you structuring like
your typical set number and and Rep count for a given exercise?
So, well, it, you know, just really depends on the movement
(36:18):
I'm doing, but typically, you know, for each mood I'm, you
know, training in, you know, a, a, a variety of Rep ranges.
So like typically, you know, I might do a working set, you
know, like a lower Rep range andand then one working set in
maybe a higher Rep range for a movement.
So something like a a top set ofback offset approach.
(36:40):
So typically that, you know, I do that for most movements at
least, especially for the compound movements.
And it, you know, like for a lotof the isolation movements,
relatively higher Rep ranges, you know, but for like a lot of
the compound movements, you know, I'm doing maybe it, you
know, top set, like, so let's say maybe like for a hack squat,
(37:03):
maybe it's one set of 6 to 8 reps and one set of like 12 to
15 reps, you know, something like that.
So I'm getting up, you know, I'mtraining in a variety of Rep
ranges there for the movements. And are you going to failure on
last set of each exercise or what?
How do? What's your views on failure
training? Well, right now it's the way
(37:27):
I've been doing it is just pretty much, you know, just for
every working set, you know, aiming to take it to failure, I
say where, you know, it's basically like, you know, I, I,
I couldn't do another Rep with that, you know, the execution I
want, you know, so not really not, you know, especially just
(37:49):
not, I'm not trying to keep repsin the tank.
You know, like, obviously there's going to be sessions
where maybe I do a movement likea leg press or something.
And looking back it's like, oh, well, maybe I could have done a
couple Rep, couple more reps there.
But it's not like I'm intentionally aiming to like
keep reps in reserve or anythinglike that.
Yeah, no, totally makes sense. I think the the lower volume,
(38:12):
higher intensity stuff is the way to go, man.
Like I've been doing a full bodysplit here for the past two
years or so. And I used to always kind of
talk smack about full body, but I've, I've kind of learned to
love it. And the reason I love it is
because I'm training with a lot more frequency for a given body
part. Like I'm, I'm training every
single thing every single day, you know, five days a week
typically training. But it's like, since I'm only
(38:36):
doing one exercise for a given body part, like I can go really
high on the intensity and it's not just getting inundated with
a bunch of, you know, quote, UN quote junk volume, Like I'm
doing, you know, one exercise for legs on a given day or
something like that. But it's, it's like because I'm
only doing one exercise, I can be a lot more intense.
And I think there's a lot of benefit there as opposed to
having just like multiple, multiple sets of just excess
(38:59):
volume. Yeah.
And I, I think it's just, well, for me it is also just kind of
simple. It's, you know, pretty simple
like with with the, the approachI have, you know, where it's
like I'm not adding volume over time, you know, as weeks
progress or anything like that. I'm not, it's just like for me,
(39:20):
another thing I felt like I would run into was there was,
you know, periods of time where I was basically training in a
way where I was tracking, you know, RPEI guess you could say,
or you know, tracking how many reps I have in the tank and I
would get my head about that man.
There would be times where I feel like it's like, was it
(39:43):
really, you know, A7, maybe thiswas eight or not, you know what
I mean? Like it's just like, I felt like
it's hard for people to really gauge, you know, how intense
they're training and how close they are to failure on
movements. And then especially like when
you're doing a leg press map even now, like the amount of
(40:04):
times where they're like, I thought like, oh man, I felt
like that Rep was it And. You know, because I'm not
tracking that and it's like, OK,I'm going to keep going.
And you realize like, Dang, I had like five more reps Like
it's like, I feel like people are not great for the most part
of gauging that. So it's like a lot of times, I
(40:26):
think some people it's like, man, you're probably holding
yourself back a lot if you know,because you think you're
training at RPE 8, but you mightbe training, you know, at RPE 5
S. Totally agree.
I've never trained based off of RP ES, I never trained based off
of percentages. I've never done that.
I mean, I've always just kind ofgone to failure on my last set
(40:47):
for a given exercise. And when I hit failure, there's
no questioning. It's like, OK, there's there's
no way I could have gotten another Rep with a good form.
You know, there's just no, it's not up for debate.
And for me that's just easier. Like it may not be optimal, but
I enjoy it more. I just like that way of training
more. Yeah, yeah, for yeah and like,
(41:08):
you know, the pressure I'm doingnow, you know, I, I, I, I enjoy
that, you know, it's like, you know, when you're I know what
I'm actually progressing, you know, because I'm.
You know, the intensity is pretty much overall pretty, you
know, it's pretty similar session to this session, you
know, for each movement because of the way I'm doing it, you
(41:28):
know, and I'm not tracking thosethings.
So it's like, OK, if if I'm my execution was virtually the same
as last session and you know, I'm up a Rep, that's like that's
a great sign. I'm actually progressing.
It's just a matter of, you know,when you're training that way or
(41:50):
training the way I'm doing it, It's like, you know, you just
really have to manage how much volume you're actually doing so
that you're not doing too much totally.
Because you know, when you're, when you're training with no
reps in the tank, you know, you can get more out of each set.
So you really don't need to do as many sets.
Yeah, completely agree. So if you're doing a day off
(42:11):
prior to and after training the legs, I'm assuming legs is the
the body part you're trying to bring up the most that your your
weak point so to speak. Part of it is just recovery
there. So like for example, you know,
today was a leg session for me, but I also is this is my life
(42:34):
session where I'll do a hip hinge, you know, so you know,
just making sure like my lower back is fresh, for example,
like, you know, I have another session where I load the lower
back, you know, a full session. So it's almost like just making
sure, you know, like I'm fresh going into my leg sessions, you
know, because I'm just, you know, listening a lot more
(42:57):
systemic fatigue, I would say from, you know, from the leg
training. So that's just something we
started doing. It wasn't like really throughout
my crap in 2023, I was doing like a five day split.
So I wasn't exactly doing it this way, but I've been, I've
been doing this set up for pretty much that's the start of
this year. But like the recovery has been
(43:18):
good doing it this way. So it's, it's been, it's been
pretty effective so far. No, that makes sense
structurally I I think that super sound.
What would you say is your your weak point body part?
Not your back. Your back is pretty frequent.
It's like I, I feel like everything just needs to come
(43:43):
off. Yeah, I guess that's where I'm,
I'm always at that point. I think I mean, well, calves are
not wonderful. So I would, I guess you could
say calves are definitely something I would love to really
bring up, but. Tough man.
Like I used to have these scrawnous calves and my calves
are anything right home about now, but I the only way I get
(44:03):
them to grow is to train them every single day.
Like that's literally the only thing I've ever been able to do
to get calves to grow every single day.
Yeah, they're, they're a tough body part.
I, I do feel like mine have beenproved.
It's just a matter of, you know,like the rate of progress you're
getting there is, you know, onlyso much.
But I would, I, I guess I would say that, I mean, I would say I
(44:28):
definitely do want to bring my quads up a good bit.
What happened was over from basically 2018 that prep to the
2023 one. I really brought my glutes and
hamstrings a lot, which is thosereally were my weak points at
that during that period of time.So I really brought those up a
(44:48):
lot. And so now I feel like they're a
bit more balanced with everything else in my physique.
I would say, I mean like arms, Iwould say chest isn't great.
So I could always have more chest arms to definitely be
better. I would say quads too, Like I, I
definitely want my quads to be able to be improved a lot more
now. And that is kind of like with my
(45:09):
training now, you know, I'm getting a little more quad
frequency than what I was getting before.
So that's definitely a body partI would I really want to bring
up. What has been your I mean your
your back's pretty gnarly man. What what's been your go to
movement for back like deadliftsor barbell rows?
(45:31):
Or if you can only pick one, what would it be?
And that's the hard part is picking one because I'm always
doing a lot, you know, I'm always doing a variety of
movements. So I think the, the big thing
there is just doing a variety. You know, you can't just stick
to free weights in my opinion. You can't just stick to
machines. So doing a variety like for me
(45:52):
for one, you know, just doing plenty of free weight movements
has obviously helped with the erectors, you know, really, you
know, being a stronger point forme.
So I feel like that's the one thing that's big.
So like Bargo roads, you know, Idid those for forever.
You know, I always did those. I always used to do conventional
deadlifts back in the day. I would do stiff like deadlifts.
(46:15):
I mean when I first started lifting, it was all free weights
for like 5 years. That was basically only thing I
had. So that helped a lot for the
thickness there. But like even like doing RDLS,
that's something I did a lot over these past few years and
that helped a lot of course. But just doing some kind of free
weight rowing I think is good tokeep in.
(46:38):
For me, it was like I did a lot of barbell rowing, I mean,
dumbbell rowing too, but things like that.
And then of course, just the basics, man, like I used to, I
did a lot of pull ups or weighted pull ups for a long
period of time and chin UPS as well, both variations, you know,
and, and doing pull downs with different grips, you know, like
(46:58):
just hitting it from different angles, doing, you know, your
chest supported robe movements. I think a lot of it too is just
yeah, I mean like hitting the back from different angles, not
neglecting any aspect of it. And actually, you know, using
having good execution with your movements too, where you're not
(47:19):
just focusing so much on the load.
I think that's a big thing is just getting too caught up in
the load where it's like you're,you know, you can, I see so many
people you're moving a lot of weight on the T bar row, but
it's like, I don't really see your back even contracting, you
know, like there's just a lot ofthose things where it's like,
(47:39):
you know, prioritizing, like actually connecting with that
muscle group versus just moving the weight is something big.
So for me it was just doing a like I did a lot of high volume
stuff at first, but just doing different exercises man.
I'm always doing some free weights and I'm not neglecting
any of the machines either. So and it's just genetically a
(48:02):
stronger point for me. Yeah, I think, you know, just
having fun with it too, man. I think time in the saddle and
just being consistent with it. I mean, like people, people are
always, you know, obsessing overdifferent forms of exercise,
different programming techniques.
And like, I don't know man, maybe I'm just done when it
comes to stuff. I just enjoy going to the gym
and keeping things relatively basic.
(48:24):
Like my programming is pretty simple.
My exercise movement patterns are pretty simple.
I just like doing the basics. I feel like a lot of people get,
they overcomplicate things when it comes to training, but like
intensity is hard to argue. Like if you're going in there
with intensity and intention, like you're going to see
results. Yeah, exactly.
I think that's it a big thing and it's just kind of like,
(48:48):
yeah, like you said, not over complicating.
And then and then more so just over time, you know, learning
new things and maybe applying some different things.
Like that's that's like that wasmy approach.
It was more so like just actually getting in the gym at
first, you know, not overthinking it, over analyzing
it, just getting in the gym. Oh, let me do these barbell
(49:08):
rows. Let me do these deadlifts.
Let me do this movement, this movement, you know, and then,
you know, getting some results and then every time, OK, maybe
I'm going to try out this other movement instead or, you know,
be a little more specific with like maybe I'm going to do a a
row that's a little more lap focused now versus upper back
(49:28):
focus. OK, let me try that out, see how
that feels. You know, let me, OK, let me
actually try out this movement, you know, just like trying
learning more over time and applying those things, but not,
you know, like trying to put thecart before the horse where
you're overthinking that. I think the younger people now,
(49:49):
it's like you got so much information now when you start
out, it's like, what do you do? You know, I think it's a bit, it
can be a bit harder than when you have so much, it's like,
where do you even start? But if you just literally start,
then from there you can learn more.
And you know, a lot of it too islike you said, like your own
experience too. And like what, what do you
(50:10):
enjoy? Like, how do you like, that's
the thing. Like most of us are in this for
the fact that we actually enjoy training.
Like that's just something we really enjoy.
So like, how do you enjoy training?
And you know, like, I'm not going to train in a way I just
absolutely hate, you know, even if on paper it's supposed to
give me better results, if I just generally hate training
(50:33):
that we're doing that exercise. It's like inevitably you're not
going to get better results because you don't actually enjoy
it, you know, and you're not going to really give everything
to it, so. No, I totally, completely agree,
man. I don't know.
We're coming up on an hour. I want to be respectful of your
time, but I'd love to pick your brain real quick about
nutrition. Because you mentioned, you know,
when you're on an aggressive building phase, you're taking,
(50:55):
you know, 900 grams of carbs in,which is a ton.
I mean, I haven't had, I haven'thad more than 30 grams of carbs.
And I can't tell you how long. But what, what, what do you do
to structure your nutrition in abuilding phase and in a cutting
phase? More or less the same foods you
said, just the different quantities.
Yeah, so like over the past, youknow, two year or over that now.
But yeah, since I started working with my coach in 2021,
(51:18):
we really just kept it really simple with where, you know,
pretty much I would have 5 mealsper day, you know, and you know,
just pretty much almost follow up meal plan, you know, be
pretty simple with it. Just foods that die just.
Well for me, you know, mostly Whole Foods, higher carb, lower
fat approach, pretty high protein.
(51:42):
That was and yeah, pretty much, yeah.
Keeping keeping things in the offseason pretty similar to then
going into like a diet or prep. So that's something that helped
me a lot. You know, when when prepping was
just having those eating habits in place prior to to doing that
(52:04):
prep. You know, I think that's
something that would help a lot of people was just, you know,
thinking about like, man, like the things you're doing before
you ever prep will inevitably affect the prep.
Like those habits. You know, if you're just not at
all even being mindful of how much you're eating or what
(52:26):
you're eating, then when you getto a point where you're like,
now you're dieting and trying totrack every gram of food.
If your body is just you, it's just going to be you're, you're
just going to make it harder on yourself when dieting.
Like, I really think there's something there where, you know,
it's like you start to get thosecravings when you it's it's like
(52:47):
when you're used to already eating a certain way and then
you completely change it up. You know, I think that's where
you run into a lot of issues. But for me, yeah, keeping things
pretty much the same, man. That's that's been that's been
what I've currently been doing these past few years is I think
that's really probably the best way to do it.
(53:10):
So what what is like a typical day of eating look like for you
now in a building? Are you pretty much keeping your
protein relatively constant whether you're in a build or a
cut, just keeping that relatively stable?
Pretty, yeah, pretty stable. So like you mean like what foods
am I having or? Like if you were to kind of run
through like a typical day of eating for you, kind of like
(53:33):
timing wise, 5 meals, higher carb, lower fat around your
training and stuff like how doesthat normally play out for you?
Yeah, So like right now I, I mean, like right now I'm not I,
I would say like it's, I'm there's a little more variation
with sometimes what I'm eating versus, you know, like last
(53:55):
year, I would say. But overall it's still pretty
much, you know, like 5 meals perday.
And like, like right now, you know, it's like there's just
maybe a few carb sources, you know, might kind of change out
or something like that or maybe protein.
But typically like, you know, I'm having like oats, you know,
like maybe I'll have some oats with berries, maybe eggs in the
(54:18):
morning. So like that might be like a
meal I'll have. Or sometimes I'll switch out the
eggs and maybe just have whey, you know, with the oats and
maybe just have some extra fats from some kind of nut butter,
something like that, you know, and then have like a pre pre
workout meal something maybe just like chicken and rice and
some vegetables and then a little bit of dark chocolate for
(54:41):
fats post workout. You know, right now it's been
chicken Creamer rice, maybe likea banana, something like that,
you know, let another meal later, you know, a few hours
later, like, and right right nowit's pretty boring.
So it's been like another chicken and rice meal and then
(55:08):
like in the evening or you know,the end of the day, like right
now I've been having like Greek yogurt, sometimes maybe some
berries with it, something like that.
Nice. Maybe some kind of fats, just
pretty, pretty boring, I guess you could say for the most part,
you know, and then maybe have a few meals throughout the week
(55:30):
that are maybe I eat with familyor something like that, you
know. You still track, you know, now
in the offseason, though, still,right?
Yeah, yeah, for the most part. Now obviously if it's a day were
like, you know, I have a meal with my family, I might have
something that is not tracked, Yeah, you know, But then for the
(55:50):
most part in the week, you know,it's like I'm, yeah, I'm
tracking it, tracking what I'm eating, so.
I think that's good, man. Like I feel like there's, I've
had off seasons where I didn't track anything and there'd be
times where I was like probably eating too much, eating too
little. And I don't know, like once once
I got that pro card, it's like Igot to think of myself now as a
(56:12):
professional. Like how would a professional
act in this situation? And you're not going to eat like
an ass most of the time. Like, you got to kind of have
some degree of, you know, what aplan should look like in the
building phase, in the cutting phase all times.
Because like, you want to keep getting better.
And you can't do that if you're just throwing all caution to the
wind and not having a clue as towhat's going in your mouth, you
(56:33):
know? Yeah.
And yeah, I mean, that's, that's, you know, most similar
for me, you know, that's what I had done for those initial preps
was pretty much not tracking in the offseason, you know, and
then going to the prep. But the rated game too, you
know, you can kind of be a little more mindful of the rated
game when you're, you know, tracking things offseason.
(56:57):
And I think that's where it's a,you know, it's a little more
important when you're, you know,when you when you get to being
more advanced, it's like, you know, that rate of muscle gain
is definitely a lot, you know, slower.
So you don't, you don't necessarily need to gaining at A
(57:19):
at a super fast rate, you know, so at that point, it's like if
you're trying to gain at a slower rate, then if you're not
monitoring really how much you're eating, it could be a
little more inconsistent. So yeah, and at at least for me,
I think a big thing is like whenyou're thinking about like,
(57:41):
prepping, when you make your life outside of a contest prep
very similar. And it's like the transition's a
lot more seamless. And I think psychologically too,
man, it's just like it makes it so much less stressful on
YouTube. And it's like, not a crazy
(58:02):
change all of a sudden in your life where it's just like, you
know, OK, now I'm just, you know, eating a little bit less.
Yeah, no, I totally, completely agree, ma'am, completely agree.
And I feel like, I mean, the whole the whole thing in
bodybuilding is especially natural bodybuilding.
Like you want to make it a lifestyle, you want to make it,
you know, you want to play the long game.
Like you see all these people inthe IFBB that are, you know,
(58:24):
dropping dead. And it's, it's sad, it's
unfortunate you see people that you know, you know, on all kinds
of gear and then two years laterthey've like downsized their
half, half the size they were two years prior.
And it's like, you don't really have to do all that if you're
doing it naturally. I mean, like the quality of mass
you put on is better. It takes a lot longer, but it's
a lot healthier. And you'll, you've got all the
(58:45):
right habits and routines in place so that you can just get
better and better as time goes on.
And I think that's why the sportis so compelling, because like,
there's no, there's no reason asto why you can't improve in some
form or fashion every single year that passes, you know?
Yeah, yeah. And like I felt in in that sense
(59:07):
would go in a natural way. You know, it's like that can
actually be a very healthy lifestyle, you know, if you're
because, you know, just thinkingabout it, like, you know, if
you're being so much more mindful of what you eat and what
you take in, you're not taking these drugs or anything like
that either. You know, you're training, going
to the gym. It's like you're it's a healthy
(59:29):
lifestyle overall. And so I think that's the big
thing. And then, yeah, I mean, like
being able to still be, you know, well, in your 40s and 50s,
you know, and being able to still have a great physique.
I mean, there's something to be said for that.
You know, you're seeing a lot ofthese, you know, natural pros
who are in their 50s, man, and still look really good.
(59:51):
And like, that's what I look at.And it's like, man, I, I want to
be like that one day where I'm in my 50s and I can still have a
good physique, still be in shape, man, still be in good
health. And so the natural way I feel
like is ultimately the better way.
But it's just like, you know, you obviously you're having to
play the long game. You don't get those crazy games,
(01:00:16):
you know, out the gates. You know, but I think it just
comes out of like, why are you really doing it in the 1st
place, you know? Yeah, no, I totally agree, man,
Totally agree. I think at the end of the day,
like it's, it should be healthy lives.
Like you want it to be somethingthat makes you better as time
goes on. And like I don't want to take
anything away from the people that are on gear like they're
(01:00:38):
putting in work like like respect to them for sure.
But like, I can, I can appreciate talking to other
natural bodybuilders like yourself, because like you are
playing the long game, like you're, you're, you're buckled
up and ready to go for, you know, decades, not just years or
months. So I, I respect that.
I appreciate that, man. I'm excited for you, you know,
being 25 years old, I mean, you,you just, you're going to keep
(01:01:01):
killing it, man. You keep getting better and
better. So it's going to be exciting to
see the journey unfold. Yeah, I appreciate that, man.
And yeah, I think that like that's what's called, but
natural bodybuilding too, is, you know, most people that are
in in this, in the natural bodybuilding community, man,
it's like most people that are, you know, competing and whatnot,
(01:01:24):
you're you're doing it for you're, you know, it's not about
just having this crazy amount ofmuscle or you know what I mean?
It's just like you're doing it typically for the right reasons
because obviously the results are certainly not the same as if
you're jumping on something. So like, if you're if you're
(01:01:45):
trying, you know, if you're willing to delay that
gratification, man, and you know, embrace the slow
progression that eventually comes, then I think, you know,
those people are the people you see that are like genuinely just
in love with their training, youknow, trying to help other
people and trying to learn more and apply that.
(01:02:06):
And it's cool to see that, you know, it's cool.
Like that's the community I really like is, you know, I feel
like with natural body bending alot, most people are like
looking out for others, man. And they want to see other
people win too. And that's when it's cool to
like have these type of conversations.
(01:02:27):
And I think that's what we need more in in bodybuilding in
general, because I think like the enhanced side, man, they're
just, it's, it's just weird, man.
Like people are like kids takingdrugs because they see these
guys on YouTube, you know, and it's it's like they don't even
know how to train at all, you know, but they're just coming in
(01:02:49):
and taking something that this guy told them they should take.
And it's just sad to see that, man.
And like that's the side of bodybuilding I'm really not a
fan of. So I feel like natural
bodybuilding, man, like if they can grow more, like I feel like
there could be so much positive that could come out of that, you
(01:03:12):
know? It seems like it is growing
though. I mean, it seems like the the
vibe I get in natural bodybuilding seems to be
trending in the right direction.Yeah, I, I mean, I, I, it is
definitely growing. I mean, without a doubt, it's
definitely growing, you know, but I, I think The thing is, is
like, it's growing, but I think bodybuilding in general is
(01:03:33):
growing. So it's like you're still also
seeing. Yeah.
The other side too, where, you know, it's just more people at
the gym now in general. There's more people in the gym
and whatnot. And so, well, I mean, that's a
good thing. But then there's people that are
just, you know, it's kind of like you're promoting taking all
(01:03:54):
this gear and these kids are like, that's the first thing.
And that's the thing I'm thinking of is like I'm
imagining like, you know, it's like there's me at 13 who's
doesn't know what he's doing. And so he's on YouTube looking
at these videos. And now the first thing the kid
sees is, you know, these guys who are just open about all the
(01:04:15):
gear they take and like basically just talk, you know,
talking about it as if it's cool, you know, a trendy thing
to do. And so now these kids like, oh
man, if I, you know, want to really be put on muscle, I need
to do this, you know, and it's not even really about like, how
do you need to be training? You know, how should you be
(01:04:36):
eating like all those aspects ofbody?
But I'm like, it's like these kids getting versed into it and
the first thing they're thinkingabout is not those things that
we talked about on this podcast.You know, it's like all about
the gear aspects and like they just want the short term wins.
(01:04:56):
And I think that's the side thatlike, it's just like, and that's
the sad part, you know? So I hope that's about him.
Bodybunder does continue to growmore and gets promoted more
because ultimately man, like this can be a super good
lifestyle, you know, even when you're done stepping out of
(01:05:18):
stage, you know? No, I 100% agreement.
I think that is a message that can't be said enough.
And I fight the more people because like at the end of the
day, we, we need to all think ofourselves as bodybuilders, Like
we need to we, we would all benefit from the routines and
practices that people are that are actively bodybuilding or
employing on a daily basis. So like moving more resistance
(01:05:39):
training, eating quality foods, eating ample protein, these are
all things that anybody would benefit from.
A 73 year old grandma that's, you know, aging and going down
the stairs on a regular basis would be better fit for doing so
if she put some effort towards lifting weights and eating
enough protein. Like these are all things that
anybody would benefit from. So like if you can kind of build
that into your day-to-day practice by default, like
(01:06:01):
you're, you're going to be better off.
Yeah, I, I, that's like that aspect of a man, you know, 100%
man would be beneficial for so many people, man, just to be in
the gym, to be mindful of what they're eating, you know, to be
just more mindful of, you know, taking care of their health,
(01:06:22):
man. And so I think that's that's the
positive man. So again, I think things like
this man, like having these podcasts, having these
conversations like this man, that's where it's like super
important. Totally agree, man.
Well, you said for sure there's not a for sure competition next
year for you, right? You're thinking about it. 20 I
(01:06:46):
said. I said 2025.
I meant to say so. I meant to say 2020. 620262026.
Is what I meant to say. Not 2025.
So that's the tentative plan. You know, it was a situation for
me where it was like getting back on stage was the only goal
(01:07:08):
I had in 2020. Last year, you know, it was just
to get back on stage. You know, it wasn't about
winning a show or anything like that.
It was just to be, for me to be able to actually get back on
stage and prove to myself I can do that.
So that's really what that was about.
And so like you're in that prep,you know, it was like, honestly,
(01:07:29):
I, you know, I could have done afew more shows like because I
got ready two weeks to, you know, two weeks before my show,
I was completely in the conditioning we were planning to
bring, you know, I was already is we already finished dieting
at that point. So I just ended up pretty much
reversing. We we reversed into the show in
a way, but I, it's like I could have actually done a few more
(01:07:52):
shows there. I couldn't like this two weeks
prior. I could have done a couple more
shows earlier on, but I only endup doing that one show.
But yeah, there's yeah, some shows later in 2000.
I guess that'll be 2026 that potentially I would, you know,
(01:08:14):
aim for. So there's obviously one,
there's obviously one in November.
We all know about, you know, that's going.
To be that one. So like they changed it.
Like they changed it. I don't remember what month it
was, but they changed it where you no longer have to compete
every two years or to maintain pro status.
(01:08:35):
So like with you having gotten your pro card prior to that
change, are you still eligible to compete as a pro at worlds
without having to re qualify if you compete in 2026?
That's the question. You know, it was a situation
where what I was initially planning to do was, well, first
of all, again, it was like I wasjust trying to get the stage,
(01:08:57):
you know, and that was the only show I had in mind.
It wasn't really like a plan of like, OK, you get your pro card
here and then you're going to dothis show to, to, you know, just
lock the pro card, you know, in for the next few years.
So I got that pro card, you know, and it just didn't make
(01:09:17):
sense for me to try to do another show because of the the
time between the shows and everything there and it's just,
it didn't make sense for me to do it so after.
So yeah, like I am not 100% sure.
I I think that I think I would be good.
(01:09:38):
You know, I think it's just likeyou have to pay I think every
year or something like that, a fee or something.
I think like the month that you earned your pro car or something
like the following year, you would have to do that or
something to keep it active. I, I'm not 100% sure on that,
(01:10:00):
but that's going into it. I believe I'm, we'll be able to
like, you know, go to be, be able to do like a pro show, you
know, maybe qualify for worlds and then see what happens there.
Yeah, that was really the next goal for me.
Like, you know, the next time I competed was to compete at
(01:10:24):
worlds and yeah. So with the time off and
whatnot, it's like a matter, youknow, I, I, I need to come back
and be way better. Like that's what I want, you
know, I want to come back and actually be significantly better
than I was last year to actuallyhang with those guys, man.
Cuz yeah, there's some the pros levels different, you know, and
(01:10:49):
I'm aware of that and I'm aware there's a lot of work I have to
do. So I'm not rushing to get back
on stage. You know, if I had to, you know,
if I had to, you know, re qualify, that's what I, you
know, if I had to do it, I have to do it.
But I'm just not in a rush, you know, So that's why, like I
(01:11:10):
wasn't planning to do another show or or try to do another
prep. You know, that prep took, it did
take a lot ahead of me for sure.But now it's just about, you
know, making improvements. And you know, like I said,
that's the 10 to plan is maybe 2026 to to see what happens
there, man, because I definitelywanted to experience that being
(01:11:34):
being on that stage. It's cool man.
I got no doubt you'll do some damage there.
Like I did it and I I'd loved it.
It's, it's a one of the ball game though, for sure.
I mean, it's the caliber of athlete there is.
Like no joke. I mean, that's why I'm taking
five years off right now. Like I'm taking five years off
before I compete again. Because like I was lean enough,
but I wasn't big enough and I got to put on some more size.
(01:11:56):
Like I'm, that's that's where I got to bring up the game.
I got to just put on some more size and to compete at that
level with the best in the world.
It's like you get people that are conditioned and they've got
the size. You know, you can't just have
one or the other. You got to have both.
Yeah, that's the thing, man. Like because I I was obviously,
you know, keeping up with some of last year's worlds and the
(01:12:19):
conditioning man and, and the size these guys had, man very
impressive. So, you know, it's like I'm
looking back and it's like, man,I, I've got a lot of, there's a
lot of, there's a lot of work that has to be done, you know,
and I know a big thing is like for me to put it on, you just
still got to have my muscle man.You know, it's like there's this
(01:12:43):
is still not enough. The standard, the standard is
high now. So that's one cool thing is
like, you know, with natural body bend, like you said, like
it definitely has grown, like the standard has definitely
improved a lot. And so it's like, yeah, you, you
got to be shredded, but then youstill have to also have that
(01:13:05):
size and you have to be complete.
You know, you can't have a lightning body part, man.
These guys look really good fromevery side, you know, from every
angle, man. And so that's the goal for me is
like, man, I just need to spend these next, you know, couple
years, like really just make trying to make the most of it,
(01:13:26):
you know, making improvements. And if everything makes sense in
my life, you know, then then go through the prep.
But yeah, that's another thing I'm aware too, is it's like,
man, the press takes so much outof you and it's like if you're
also not in a great, like, you know, you have to make sure like
your life is in a good place prior and even starting a prep,
man. Like if you're really trying to
(01:13:48):
get to that world's conditioning, then that's it's
like everything needs to be in order because that can make the
difference from like a really good prep to just a disastrous
prep. Man.
It's kind of like what had happened with me.
But so yeah, we'll see what? Happens.
(01:14:10):
I'm excited man. I'm excited for you.
I'm excited to follow along. 2026 going to be a good year for
sure. I got no doubt you're going to
put on some more size in the time being.
Where are you located At? What state are you in?
I'm in Georgia. Georgia.
I got family in Georgia, man. We need to go get a lift in
together sometime. That'd be cool man.
I'm all about it. I'm all about it.
I probably actually going to be in Georgia later this year
(01:14:33):
seeing family. So I'll hit you up, man.
We'll get, we'll get, we'll get a lift in.
That'd be good. Yeah, that'd be awesome, man.
Sweet brother, where do people go to find out more about you
and follow along man. I can go to Instagram, which if
you go to Kenyan the third, so KENYONTHE the #3RD Kenyon the
(01:14:59):
third or just type in Joshua Kenyon on Instagram and YouTube,
if you just type in my name, Joshua Kenyon.
I've been putting out some YouTube videos.
Nothing special, just more so like vlogging some like, you
know, posting some training stuff like trying to post more
training sessions kind of like vlog, maybe some commentary
(01:15:21):
there. I've been trying to get my force
myself to do that some now and that's that's really mostly
where I'm at. Awesome, well I will link out
and make it easy for people to find you man.
Let's definitely keep in touch. Always good knowing other
natural bodybuilders in the space.
If there's everything I can do for you man, you just let me
know, brother. Hey man, I appreciate it.
(01:15:43):
I really appreciate, you know, you let me on man.
I think that's like we talked about man, like, you know,
natural bodybuilders gotta sticktogether and just continue to
promote it and have these types of conversations man.
So that's. The thing about it, natural
bodybuilder, man, like we're allsuper competitive, but we all
want to see the sport grow, so like.
(01:16:05):
Yeah. Like I want you to be the best
you can be. You want me to be the best I
could be at the end of the day. Like if we're on world stage
together, like I'm going to go and try and rip your head off
and vice versa. But it's like we want the sport
to grow and we do that by havingcamaraderie and just good
friendly vibes, you know? Yeah, exactly, man.
And yeah, you get them. And like having, I think that's
(01:16:26):
a big thing, man. It's just like being able to
have these conversations, have people on, man, like different
natural litters sometimes. That's the thing too.
It's like a lot of natural bodybuilders, man.
They don't really, they're not really always the biggest on
social media. And so being able to like having
have them on for these conversations, man, this is like
where you get a lot of value. So yes, that's super important,
(01:16:49):
man. So what you're doing is really
awesome. I appreciate it, man.
And likewise likewise. We'll keep spreading the
message, man. Keep fighting the good fight and
keep it natty, brother. We'll talk soon, man.
Alright, I appreciate it man. You bet.
Take care.