Scaryish - Ep 303: The Iceman - Richard Kuklinski

Robin and Adam proudly present Episode 303 of Scary(ish)! Adam covers the life, crimes, and death one of the most prolific hitmen in history. Listen, Share, Subscribe, and Review!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey, they're spooky friends and welcome to another episode of
the Scaryish Podcast. I'm Robin Gray. This is Adam dis
And uh, we do stuff. We we stuff, no, but
we we make Our show is about, you know, scarish topics.
So we make episodes about true crime, haunted locations, poltergeist.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Type, supernatural, paranormal, true crime, could be stuff in anywhere
that you can classify something as scaryish. That is what
we do. Uh. If you're jumping into episode three oh three,
if this is your first episode, weird choice. But Okay,
all I can.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Think of is the band three oh three. Now that
you've said through an even.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Think of that? Well, fun times. Yeah, we missed a
week and I'll be completely frank. It's because of my
big kid job, my job with the Capitol jailted. Yeah,
everything to melt it down. I think I had six
days in a row where I worked at least fourteen hours.
My three day weekend for Veterans Day turned into sixteen
hour days. So it's been pretty rough. I am exhausted

(01:15):
on a level I have not been exhausted on before,
or if I have, it hasn't been in a long
ass time. Definitely, hasn't happened in a while. So yeah,
we are back a little bit tired, but this is
our first episode of November, a little bit late into it,
so we do want to give some shout outs to
our wonderful patrons. Above the shout out to your no
No No No nero Robin take it away.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
So shout out to Faye, Shandon, Dulce, Ethan and Karl
Olov for supporting us and all the patrons that support us.
But big shout out to those guys. You guys are amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, you guys mean the world to us. Honestly, every
one of you that listens to the show and support
this is, in any way, shape or form, you are
truly valued and appreciated. It. It is crazy to think
that folks listen to us. I still feel like blown away.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
In different countries, people reach out.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
We listened to an over one hundred countries. I don't
know if that's concurrent anymore, but yeah, we have been
downloading well over one hundred countries, which is still mind blowing.
And yeah, it's just really nice. We always want to
try and bring you guys really good content. I think
I have a good topic. It's an Adam episode this
week exciting, so I think we can kind of just
jump into it. It'll be a little bit long, but

(02:23):
you know, we do single topics rather than double topics nowadays,
nothing too extensive. This week, I had the feeling that
I really wanted to cover something like real. I didn't
want to go the route of like, well it was
with the internet, so take it or leave it. So
strap on because we're veering back into the true crime territory.
And my thought was like I want a high body count,
which is a weird thing to say, but I was like,

(02:44):
I want someone that was like a prolific true crime Okay.
So I went through our list of topics that we've
had sitting for a while, because we do have a
few folks on there that I was like, yeah, you're
pretty notable, but is this the week for you? There
was one that's been waiting on there for at least
three years, and I was like, you know what, it's time.
It is time to do the episode. I don't know
why I'm building this up for you folks, because you've

(03:05):
already read the title.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
I'm just like mind blown that we've been doing this
for over three years, five years seven years.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Oh my gosh, yeah, I think we actually, in two
weeks are about to cross the threshold where we've done
it for a full seven years.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Crazy is that?

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah? We started in twenty seventeen, the end of twenty
seventeen so.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Our show could go to elementary school.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Wow, it's crazy. But anyways, this guy that I'm going
to cover was not just a serial killer. He was
a hit man. And I present to you Richard Koklinsky,
aka the Ice Man. Now. I know that nicknames are
typically given to serial killers by the media because it's
something that sells papers or makes people tune in to
watch the TV. And realistically, nicknames given to murderers are

(03:52):
kind of gross and perverse and kind of glorify the
monster and not the victims. So aside from the title
in the intro and then the last thing, I'll say,
I'm just gonna use this guy's real name because to me,
there's only one fucking.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Iceman and he went to Top Gun.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
That's Tom Kazanski, naval aviator who graduated top of his
class in nineteen eighty six at the age of twenty
six years old, top of his class. That was a
school for the best fighter pilots in the world school
known as Top Gun. Oh, oh my god, and no,
he wasn't technically real, but those abs on the beach
volleyball scene were wink walk Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
If you guys, okay.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
You haven't watched the original Top Gun.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Fuck you What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Is really good too.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Top Gun Maverick's a pretty good sequel, especially for being
so far forward in the future, like thirty years or whatever.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah, I don't know, dude, The Top Gun movies are great.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
I enjoy them and uh yeah, so that's my iceman
hashtag my ice same absolutely Anyway. The person we are
going to talk about today is Richard Koklinski. Richard was
born on April eleventh, nineteen thirty five, in Jersey City,
New Jersey. At this point, I'll toss out trigger warnings
of domestic abuse, murder, child abuse, sexual abuse, and animal abuse. Wow,

(05:10):
basically a lot of the heavy hitter things that we've
come to experience when we're covering true crime topics of
this nature. Also, I kind of know what you're already
thinking after I said his birthday in place of birth
and aries from New Jersey. Go fucking figure. Just kidding
aries out there who were born in New Jersey. Not
trying to make this personal. No further background needed.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Though, right, did you really go out of your way
to look up like aries?

Speaker 2 (05:33):
I mean my dad's in aries? Oh okay, yeah, I know,
like April twentieth born in Jersey. He was not born
in New Jersey. I actually don't know where my dad
was born. He has told me, Yeah, he has told me.
Before it slips, it escapes me in this moment. But
let's focus on Richard here. Uh So, his father, Stanley
was said to be an alcoholic with a temper, which
is kind of like the playbook for someone who's going

(05:55):
to develop into a serial killer in certain ways shapes
or forms. This is something that we see all the time.
And he was prone to violent outbursts, which is not shocking.
His mother, Anna was different, but she was also not
a gem. She was a self proclaimed devout Catholic and
she went hard on that God route because she was
a strict disciplinarian. Like anything her children did wrong were

(06:18):
met with, I guess the best way to put it
is very harsh punishment. She was known to beat Richard
and his brother with broom handles until they broke. And
that's the kind of physical punishment that he would endure
from his mother. His father would just beat the shit
out of them. His father would also beat his mother.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Well, I mean I used to get beat a lot
as a kid, but nothing ever broke on my body.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
Getting beat with the broom handles sounds pretty rough and
having that break and then you got to keep buying brooms,
and then she's probably angry that she has to keep
buying brooms. Maybe stop hitting your fucking kids with it.
Just saying so between the two parents, it said that
Richard and Dure just relentless abuse in his childhood and
everythinking like, man, I got my ass beat grown up too,
that's no excuse to turn into a giant piece of shit.
You're not entirely wrong. Lots of people out there are

(07:04):
victims of abuse when they're growing up, and they don't
grow up to murder people. It should be said, though,
that when I say relentless abuse. One of the earlier
memories came when he was five years old and he
watched his dad beat the shit out of his brother,
who was named Florian, who was two years older than him,
and he beat him so bad that his brother fucking died. Yeah,
they called the cops and told the cops he fell

(07:26):
down the stairs and the cops the cops are like,
all right, they took him, They had an autopsy done
on him, and I don't know how this happened. I
checked the death certificate on this, and his cause of
death was listed as pneumonia. What But even though it's
listed as pneumonia, the official record state that he was
beat to death. Nowadays, like it states, death certificate is inaccurate,
states that he died of pneumonia, but he died of

(07:48):
blunt force trauma, so that's the No one really knows
for sure, but I mean, this is nineteen forty one,
I think when this happened, So this is wow, last
time time ago. And that he's not growing up like
of means he's growing up in a fairly poor neighborhood.
As far as I can tell, neighbors kind of knew
what happened, but only spoke about it later after the fact.

(08:09):
So obviously a pretty horrible way to start your childhood.
By the time you're five years old, your brother's been
beaten to death before your very eyes by your parents.
In this case, it was his dad, but from what
I can tell, like his mom didn't do anything to
prevent it and may have actually contributed to it. The
Internet also says older brother and that's all they really
attribute to it. When I was checking the death certificate,
I noticed that Florian was born on April eleventh, nineteen

(08:32):
thirty three, so before, so two years before exactly. He
shared the same day of birth with his brother, which
means that Richard grew up after five years old. Every
birthday he had he could remember his brother who he
shared a birthday with, who was beaten to death by
his dad before his very eyes. And I'm not trying
to generate sympathy for the devil here, just stating the facts.

(08:54):
That's objectively horrible. So when he's ten, his parents wind
up having another child, Joseph Michael Koklinsky, and the beatings
would of course continue. As a teenager, his mother finally
got sick of being beat and attempts to murder his
father with a kitchen knife. She was unsuccessful.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
So what happens after that? Then it's like she didn't
kill him, she tried, didn't kill him. Do they still
end up living together on the same.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Right from what I can tell, they never divorced.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
What the heck?

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah, So it's pretty bad and it just gets worse
from there. And this kind of upbringing does take its
toll on Richard and Joseph for that matter. And in
a two for one deal of true crime, We're going
to take a quick detour and I'm going to talk
to you really quickly about Joseph Koklinsky, Richard's brother, because
in nineteen seventy, when Joseph was twenty five years old,
he stole the dog of a neighbor, And when that

(09:45):
neighbor's daughter, twelve year old Pamela Dial, was out looking
for her dog, Joseph saw her and said, hey, I
found your dog. Follow me, and she did. She followed
him to the roof of the building he lived at,
where her dog was actually there waiting. The dog was
placed on this roof. Trigger warning for all the stuff
I said earlier, those things are about to happen. Once

(10:05):
he got her on the roof, He's sexually assaulted this
twelve year old girl before throwing her and her dog
off the roof to death.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
That okay, I don't know, man, but those parents must
have done a number on the number. Yeah, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
He does get convicted of this crime. No other crimes
are committed after this. He wound up spending the rest
of his life in jail. He does die there. When
Richard was asked about his brother's crimes, he responded, quote,
we come from the same father. End quote. It makes
you that it's fucking chilling.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well, it makes me think about haunting at hill House.
When Steve is like, I, you know, got snipped. Don't
want kids because he.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Thinks craziness runs in his family. Yeah, he doesn't want
to perpetuate the craziness onto a child. That's weird to
make that sort of a kid.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
You know.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
It's just like that's what the vibe the runs in
the family. Yeah, that's the vibe it gives me. And
I'm assuming neither of them had kids or any of that.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Did they about Joseph and Richard? Yeah, well, strap the
fuck on, dog, We're gonna keep going now. Oh no.
So Richard obviously moves forward with his life and does
grow up after this happens. In nineteen seventy. He winds
up getting married and he has two sons, Richard David.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Okay, please tell me they grow up and live a
normal life.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Okay. I don't have a whole lot about Richard's kids,
so it wasn't in any of the research that I
saw regarding them, except some of the things they said
about their dads. That's the best I can do, Okay.
I can't guarantee you these guys don't have a criminal record.
There is something I'll get to a little bit later,
but it is fairly small potatoes. Richard's first wife is
a woman named Linda, who he is not together very
long with as far as I can tell, because at

(11:47):
the time he is married to Linda, he starts sleeping
with the secretary at the trucking company he is currently
working for, and his wife finds out and divorces him.
He does remarry the secretary. I believe that's nineteen sixty one.
He marries his second wife, a woman by the name
of Barbara. He has three more children by her, two
daughters named Merrek and Kristen, and another son named Dwayne.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
So he answers the questions about his brother's crimes and
say says, you know, we come from the same father,
and then goes on to father five children.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
He's not saying like I'm not going to have kids.
And he says, we come from the same father. He
basically says, we're cut from the same cloth, as in,
we're very similar humans.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
But like, then, what about his kids? Does he not
expect his kids?

Speaker 2 (12:34):
You know what I mean? I think this is the
idea of like your upbringing versus.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Like nurture verse nature. It's right, is it.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Like what's in your blood or is it how you're raised? Right?

Speaker 1 (12:45):
So, I mean, they weren't raised in the most healthy
environment obviously, but you know, it's just that it's all
so scary. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
So he grows up, he has a family, he winds
up having five kids. He's on a second he does
stick with her, and while he's with his second wife,
he starts to do better in business. He's better off.
He still lives in New Jersey, and he starts, you know,
basically just becoming this family man. And during this time,
his neighbors were completely unaware that they live next to

(13:16):
someone who could be doing anything other than what he
presents himself as, which is a successful businessman. Everything about
his outward appearance seems to indicate stability and success. His
own wife, Barbara, described his profession as a quote wholesale
distributor end quote, and said he actually had to employ
an accountant to keep track of their assets because he

(13:36):
was so successful. When asked about their lifestyle and just
sort of like the things that they had, she said
that she did quote unquote suspect that some of their
income was from illegal activities, considering how much fucking cash
he always seemed to have on him, like they were
rolling in it, and he always just had stacks of

(13:58):
dolla dollar bills. And I think of that scene in
Goodfellas when Karen, the wife asks Henry the main character,
for money to go shopping. She's like, oh, I want
to go shopping, and he asks her how much, and
she doesn't say an amount. She uses her thumb and
her forefinger to like show a thickness of the stack
of hondos that she wants, Like that's the sort of
life these folks are living like. He just has tons

(14:18):
and tons of cash on him at all times, and
as long as she doesn't ask him where it's coming from,
she's not gonna worry about it. But she suspects.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
What's which movie is the one where all the gangster's
wives start buying a bunch of stuff and being all
fancy wearing fur coats and things like that.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
That's good Fellas, is it?

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (14:37):
There's a lot of things I read in here where
I'm like, oh, this is totally the inspiration for a
scene in Goodfellas, And then i went online and looked
it up and I'm like, oh, it's straight up. Was like,
I'm not just thinking that. Like, and when I read
some of these things off, we're gonna get to You're
gonna be like, oh, it's like that scene from Goodfellas.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Okay, cool, So.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
I'll revisit that movie a couple of times. Richard That
said like he he had this outward appearance of being
successful in a family him in but to his family
he was two people, and his wife referred to him
as such. She referred to him as good Richie and
bad Richie. Oh Man, Good Richie was a good dad
and a loving husband. He loved being with his family.

(15:13):
She said that he's the guy who stayed up every
single night all night. When they had their daughter Marreck
and Marek was really really sick and they had to
take care of her. He stayed up literally until she
got better. And that's the kind of dad he was
to his kids. And that's what she says when she
remembers quote unquote good Richie. Bad Richie is a different story.
He was the other guy. He was the guy that

(15:35):
would go out and not come home. And when I
say that, I mean sometimes for days and sometimes for months.
And she stayed with him, Yeah, and there was times
where she didn't have money and she'd have to borrow
money from friends and family members because bad Richie was
just out and about and she couldn't pay bills and shit.
So he would also fly off the handle, displaying incredible
rage filled outbursts and being cut from the same cloth

(15:57):
as his dad. He was physically abusive, and he would
beat the shit out of bar Barbara. I don't see
a lot about him beating his kids. If you're wondering,
I don't know if that was something that he just
didn't do or they just didn't talk about often.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
And what I've read it might be that because he
grew up with his dad beating him, he didn't want to.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Be his kids, like he cared about his kids. But
like there's something about his wife where he still would
be the shit out of her. He broke her nose
on three separate occasions. At one point, he tried to
run her over with the family car.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Bruh.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
She also reported that the beatings that she used to
endure were the cause of quote, several miscarriages. Dude, horrible guy, right,
So Bad Richie is the monster. So you have to
ask yourself if that's what he was like inside the
house where people weren't seeing, what was he like outside
of the house when he wasn't being like the upstanding neighbor.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
And so Barbara didn't know where he was going.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
He would just disappear, Yeah, straight up.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
So it really is like no one knows what he's
up to.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, so I'm going to tell you the story of
like what people found out about Bad Richie as if
you were his neighbor. Okay, So, like imagine it's like
right before Christmas nineteen eighty six. It's New Jersey. So
you go out size probably snow on the ground. You're
going up your driveway to get like your garbage bins
and bring them back inside or whatever, and you notice
that Barb, your neighbor, seems obsessed. You're like, Barb, what's

(17:16):
the sitch, bitch? What's going on?

Speaker 1 (17:17):
You got to do it in like a New Jersey
out doing it.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
And Barbera says, Oh, we were stopped last night at
a roadblock and the cops arrested Richie and I tried
to stop them and they arrested me for interfering.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
Excuse me?

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah exactly. I'd be like, oh, snap, that sucks, and
You're like, oh, I hope everything's okay, Like let me
know if you needed help, and then you like walk
up your drive. When then you call your other neighbors
like did you hear Richie got arrested? And then like
the more people you call, the more you start to
hear other details, and it's like, turns out Richie wasn't
just arrested. There was a gun in the car, and
it wasn't just the gun that got him arrested. He
was arrested for being hired to kill someone and was

(17:55):
being held for that exact reason. And you might say,
at this point, how could something like this happen? I
will tell you how.

Speaker 4 (18:04):
So.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
A New Jersey State Police officer in nineteen eighty five,
over a year and a half before the arrest took place,
who was named Pat Kane, was investigating a gang that
had apparently been carrying out burglaries all over the area,
and during his investigation he heard the name Richard Koklinsky come up.
So he decided he's going to start a file on
this particular person and see what he could find out

(18:25):
about him. And as he starts to investigate Richard Koklinsky,
the name starts getting brought up more and more and more,
and that file goes from just being that Manila enveloped
being thick, and before you know it, this is no
longer an investigation into gang burglaries. Koklinsky has been linked,
through evidence and informants, to five different murders. Oh and

(18:48):
not just fucking murders, contract killings with mafia ties. So
it's not just some people are breaking into places and
stealing shit. Now it's like, we have a legitimate mafia
fucking hit man that we're tracking that's also attached to
the burglaries. And essentially the FEDS basically get involved and say, look,
we have to fucking catch this guy.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Was it like they knew it was a hit man killing,
Like it was a double tap.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Like you know, like they made the names that were
being attached to just like that guy's part of an
organized crime family. That guy was a witness that got
murdered before he testified, Okay, and things kept coming up
and they're like, yeah, you know who did that, Richard Koklinsky.
They're like, oh fuck, So the ATF gets involved. They
basically show up, you know the fucking movies where it's like,
whose jurisdiction is this?

Speaker 1 (19:34):
So uh, for those that aren't from America, what is
the ATF?

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Alcohol, tobacco, on firearms. They're the Federal Government Regulation Board
or whatever, the law enforcement officers who regulate alcohol to
back on firearms. They're interested in Richard specifically for the
firearms part because he sells guns illegally. They show up.
I don't know what jurisdictional nonsense they cleared, but there
was not a lot aside from the fact they're like,
we have to arrest him. And they nicknamed it Operation Iceman.

(20:02):
That is the literal working title of the operation to
catch Richard Koklinsky. Okay, and they know Richard is smart
as fuck and he's apparently connected. He will get away
if they're not careful. So a man named Dominic Polofron
I think I'm saying his name right, might be Polofrone
who is an ATF agent. They decide he's going to
go undercover into the criminal world. He has connections to

(20:24):
this specific area, he has friends, he has family, and
a lot of them don't know he's an ATF agent.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Huh.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
So they're like, cool, you're gonna go undercover, So he does.
He makes connections through a mutual friend that he had
when he was younger, who has worked at one point
with Richard Kokolinsky and eventually does meet him. So Dominic
and Richard meet and they spend eighteen months together. This
dude dedicates a year and a half of his life
to pretending to be a criminal to hang out and
buddy up to one of the most frightening contract killers

(20:52):
in the history of the mob.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
How crazy is that that you spend, you know, a year.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
And a half pretending to be someone.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Else's right but and then how you know, I just
imagine you start losing your sense as your own individual person.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
That's what the movie Donnie Brask goes about, which I've
never seen. It's about an undercover cop who goes undercover
to like break up the mob, and he like loses
his sense of self and he realizes like one of
the mobsters has become his best friend, and I think
that's al Pacino. Johnny Dep's the main character. Again, I
haven't seen this, haven't seen it somehow is it good?
Do you know if he's good? I've heard good things,
but I've heard bad things too. So that said, this

(21:29):
dude's undercover for eighteen months. Eventually he's able to buy
a handgun from Kolinsky. They become buddy buddy enough where
he's saying, like, I need a weapon. Koklinsky sells him
something so like if he's a NATESIF guy, they can
nail him right now. But they also know that this
dude is a fucking hit man. And while he's making
this purchase, he has a wire on him. He's recording
everything he's saying. And Koklinsky tells him about a corpse

(21:51):
that he has kept in a freezer what for two
and a half years, so he can confuse the time
of death. The police wouldn't be able to catch him
or identify who it was that killed him. He also
told him during this time when he's selling him this gun,
poison is a much better method to kill people. He said, quote,
why be messy, you do it nice and calm end quote.

(22:12):
So the freezer thing and his calm demeanor when he
gives this is what earns him the nickname the iceman.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Okay, oh my, imagine having a dead body in your
freezer for two and a half years and then like
anytime anything on top of it, right right, if people
come over.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
And get the burgers, they're on top of that guy's face.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Dude, that is just again, that is just psycho behavior
where it's just not normal. People are not like this.
But I feel like police can tell when they look
at the bodies after they see how the blood crystallizes.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
It Again, this is nineteen eighty five. I didn't even
think that DNA evidence at this time. They just lick
the arm of the body and they're like, ooh, this
tasts three and a half years old. I think that's
not long it's been.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
I feel like DNA became more pro in this. Is
it nineties? I thought it was seventies.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
Okay, oh no, no, no, not the seventies for sure.
I'll have to check and see when it started being
admissible in court. Because for a while, like people are
just like this is bullshit, voodoo science, this isn't real.
And then everyone's like, oh shit, this is real. But
I think it was the nineties because I remember people
talking about it and how it was going to change,
like the face of law enforcement and how people could
get caught for crimes and shit. But let's keep going.
So he has this conversation and when he gets this advice.

(23:27):
When dominic gets this advice from Richard about using poison,
he tells them, I know a guy who can get poison, Like,
if you ever need poison, let me know, because I
have a friend who's a drug dealer. He sells me
cocaine and he can get poison, so just let me know.
And it goes on and on and on their relationship
or whatever goes on. I always wonder in this case
because they never tell you, like, what's the shit Dominic saw?

(23:49):
How many people did Dominicci die? Before They're like, okay, cool,
I think we have enough to bring him in because
when you're undercover, like, you don't just get pulled out
if you witness a crime, you know, you basically have
to stay under cover.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
December seventeenth, nineteen eighty six, Richard meets dominic to get
cyanide for a murder he has been hired for his
target is an undercover cop that the mafia found out
was an undercover cop. So he tells Dominic an undercover
cop he's getting the poison to kill a different undercovered cut.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Does this guy know it's another undercover cop.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
He knows immediately who he's talking about. Okay, so they know, like,
we need to get him out, blah blah blah blah blah.
The other thing they know is that now that they
know this, Dominic's cover is probably gonna be blown. The
other thing is that he's not selling him real cyanide.
He is selling him fake cyanide. No, this isn't gonna
he sells it to him, and Richard's like, hey, I
gotta go for a walk. I'm gonna come right back,

(24:43):
and then we're gonna go kill that dude. So he
goes for a walk and while he's by himself, he
stuffs this fucking cyanide into a piece of meat, finds
a stray dog and tests it because he does not
trust Dominic and he doesn't think he sold him real.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Sigence sounds like a mobster thing to do.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Sounds like a smart guy who's a criminal gives it
to a dog. The dog doesn't die. He comes back.
He says, hey, we're not doing this tonight. I have
to go home, and he fucking leaves. Two hours later,
they put up a roadblock and they catch Richard and
his wife Barbara in the car. Not sure if they
were fleeing or what was happening, but they managed to
stop him. That's when they arrest him. His wife tries

(25:18):
to intervene. She gets the weapons charge. He doesn't get it.
Why they put it on his wife. They say that
she was a passenger in the car with a weapon,
and somehow they connect the gun to her.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Maybe it was in her purse.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Don't know where it was. All I know is that
she winds up getting the charge, and this is when
stuff basically starts to come out. He's gonna get sentenced
and held. I think it's a two million dollar bond
they put on him when he winds up getting the trial.
He is charged with five counts of murder, six weapons violations,
a count of attempted murder, multiple counts of robbery, and

(25:52):
multiple counts of attempted robbery. The folks he is accused
of murdering are as follows a man named George Maliband,
who was murdered. In nineteen eighty, Koklinsky allegedly murdered George Malaban,
a business associate who owed him money. Malaban was shot
and his body was dumped in a field where it
was later discovered. This murder is said to be the

(26:13):
first that police were able to link Koklinsky to which
would lead to his eventual arrest.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
So were you able to find like what they picked
out from each murder that kind of linked them all?

Speaker 2 (26:25):
It was witness testimony from what I can tell, okay,
of people saying like I know that Richard dude, he
killed this guy. Ah, Okay, So that's why they like
didn't have anything to just bring him in. They had
to go undercover to catch him talking about the murders
that he's committed and have recordings of it, okay, and
then have evidence that he was ready to murder someone
by his own admission. The next person is a Louis
Masgay and on July first, nineteen eighty one, he was killed.

(26:47):
He was a businessman who was involved in quote unquote
shady dealings. He was found dead after being reported missing.
He was the frozen body kept in the freezer for
over two years and when they found him, the freezing
tactic was something they recognized from other bodies they had recovered,
and that's where the nickname had come from, because they
had been recovering bodies from various witnesses and mobsters who

(27:11):
were frozen when they found him, and the person that
was known to be killing them had the nickname of
the Iceman because of this. Okay, so like this is
why they called him the Iceman.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
My morbid curiosity just wants to know how big the
freezer was. You know, how tall is this person was
he folded?

Speaker 2 (27:27):
I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
I'm just so curious, So.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
We're gonna keep moving. Nineteen eighty two. This one just
says nineteen eighty two, no specific day, because this man's
name is Paul Hoffman. Koklinsky kills Paul Hoffman, a pharmacist
who is seeking to buy cheap stolen drugs from him.
During their meeting, Koklinsky shot him and attempted to dispose
of his body. It should be noted Paul Hoffman's body
has never been recovered because people knew he was associated

(27:56):
with this murder. It kind of led to him being
known as life Like this horrifying like criminal, Like this
guy kills people and you'll never see them again, like
the body's never been recovered. Gary Smith December twenty third,
nineteen eighty two. He was one of Koklinsky's criminal associates
or partners in crime. He and another associate named Daniel

(28:18):
Deepner poisoned Smith with cyanide laced foods. They used the
poison tactic on this guy because they thought that he
was too loose lipped, that he was a loose end,
he would talk too much. He was found in a
hotel room and his death provided the evidence that Koklinsky
would use cyanide as a weapon as well. And because
that Daniel Deepner guy was murdered on May fourteenth, nineteen

(28:40):
eighty three, so the guy that helped him kill Gary
Smith was also killed because Kiklinsky viewed him as a
quote unquote potential liability. His body was discovered in a
park wrapped in garbage bags. This killing kind of showed
that like Kiklinsky was completely willing to betray his close
associates to protect himself. One of these bodies that I'm

(29:03):
about to go over is very similar to this whole
like killing spree that he basically went on to like
cover up his own tracks. Is part of the inspiration
for the montage and Goodfellas where they play the song
Leila and they're showing all the people that are getting
killed because they're loose ends. Yeah, one of the bodies
was discovered hanging in a fucking ice cream van. And
that's the scene in Goodfellas where they find the guy

(29:25):
hanging in the meat locker. Okay, and there's a lot
of things here that sort of parallel that. But those four,
excuse me, those five in particular, are the ones he's
accused of murdering. He has only found guilty of two.
He's only found guilty of killing Gary Smith and Daniel Deppner,
his criminal associates, because they have a lot of evidence
from that because that one guy, Dominic was undercover and

(29:46):
there's so many folks talking about the fact that Richard
killed them, and Richard admits it on tapes in multiple instances.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
Well, I mean they never found Hoffmann's body.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, there's like nothing you can do. I am shocked
that this one was brought to trial. I wonder if
it got mixed up with a other murder that they
accused him of and The reason that this could be
easily confused is because he is found guilty of those two,
he gets sentenced to sixty years in prison, and after
the sentencing he goes just so you guys know, I
did kill George Malabrand and I did kill Louis Masgay.

(30:15):
He also missed it killing Paul Hoffman. So of those
three people, they only charge him with two additional murders
and add on two life sentences. When he admits to
the other one, the fifth one, they basically say, like,
we got enough. They don't even bring him a trial
for it.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
They just add it on.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
No, they don't. They don't add it on. They brought
him a trial for two more murders, so he has
sixty years plus two consecutive life sentences after that. I
think they basically just decide, like it's a waste of
tax payer money to keep trying this guy for murders.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Because they'll keep just finding more and more and more.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, and it costs money every time you do it.
So like he's in jail until he dies, Like it
doesn't matter. Once he's behind bars, though, he basically just
starts telling everyone what he did. Also, it should be
noted that when he started confessing to other murders, he
does sign a plea deal for those two that he
gets life sentences for the conditions of that plea deal
are that the firearm charge has to be dropped against
his wife and there's an unrelated marijuana charge against one

(31:07):
of his sons that he wants to be dropped, and
both both of those charges are dropped.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
That's pretty selfless of him. Selfless ish, I guess you know,
it's still like I'm the dad, I'm your husband, let
me do this last thing for you. I know, I'm
a contract killer. Whatever.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
She does eventually file for divorce from him. I think
in like ninety three it's final, and they list like
the assets to be divided at four hundred dollars and
the debts that they owed is over like two hundred
k Oh my god. And I mean this is like
early nineties, like late eighties, when this money is going around.
So they basically took back every penny that that family
had because it was all generated from illegal activity. So

(31:49):
when he's behind bars, he starts telling people like, all right,
here's the deal. Guys, like you keep asking me how
many people I've killed? All the people that I've been
connected to. I've killed between one hundred and two hundred people.
What I stopped keeping track a long time ago. He
says that additional people he killed during the seventies and eighties,
like he doesn't remember most of their faces or names,
but he tells them the ways that he killed people

(32:11):
so they can match them to bodies they discovered. So
most of them are shootings and poisonings, usually with cyanide.
Others are just beatings. He just simply beat people to
death all the way. His brother was beaten to death
in front of him when he was a kid. So
he does state that cyanide was his typical way of killing,
and when he's asked when he started killing, he says

(32:33):
that his first murder took place in his late teens,
around the nineteen fifties, and he reportedly killed a man
who insulted him at a bar, beginning his legacy of violence,
and these early acts were relatively undocumented, but it did
establish a presence for him amongst the local community of
criminals as being particularly fucking brutal and will kind of

(32:55):
get to how that leads to the rest of his life.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
So that's kind of how they were like, guys, he's
fucking crazy. Yeah, they're like, guys, I saw this guy
at the bar.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
He's super, super chill. He'll sit there and have a
drink with you. If you make him mad, he will
fucking kill you. Like he will not hesitate to kill you.
And that's kind of the reputation that he got. So
there's a list of folks that he admits to murdering
or being involved with their murder and it's really interesting
and there's form in particular that I'm gonna cover. Okay,
So the first guy's name Robert Prongay, and Robert Prongay

(33:26):
was a quote unquote mentor to him. He said he
was his friend, that he uh, this is the guy
they found in the ice cream truck. He had been
shot in the head multiple times and then hung in
an ice cream truck to be found frozen. Kaklinsky says
that he was the person who introduced him to cyanide
and insisted cyanide as a poison method of killing, was
better than shooting people. He actually really liked him, but

(33:48):
Prongay was about to go on trial because Prongay was
fucking crazy and he had an ex wife. He didn't like,
so he blew up the front door to her house.
What and so he was getting ready to go to
trial when he was murdered. They assumed for a long
time that he was killed to keep him quiet. When
Richard admitted to killing him, they said, was it to
keep him quiet before he went to trial? And He's like,
oh no, he threatened my family so he had to go.

(34:10):
So basically like that had some disagreement, Prong Gay said
something about his family and that was it. Pronga was
fucking dead. He shot him in the head and hung
him up with the in the truck to basically be
found like that. The next guy I'm going to talk
about is Roy DeMeo, who was a crime boy connected
to the mafia. I think it was part of the
Gambino crime family. He was another friend of Richard's and
this was supposedly his connection to the mafia. Like he

(34:33):
met this dude, This dude realized Richard had this reputation
of being like a stone cold fucking killer. Like this
guy was super calm, presented like an outward appearance of
success and like that sociopathic thing where everyone thinks you're
a nice guy. But he knew who he actually was.
He's the guy who tells him like, you know, killing
people can be a lucrative business, like and since you

(34:53):
were good at it, maybe you could work for me
and my family. So this is his connect that gets
him to become like a hired killer. And even though
he's that connection, for a long time it was believed
that Demayo was killed by his own men. There's a
whole lot like this dude could have an episode about
himself because he killed a bunch of people. What winds
up happening is he gets shot to death and people

(35:16):
aren't sure who did it because the people that are
getting the contract to kill him weren't successful. Then suddenly
the police they can't find him. They locate his car,
they popped the trunk and he is frozen and he's
riddled with bullet holes.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
So this guy kills all his connections, pretty much all
his friends. He doesn't care.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
He kills anyone that crosses him, and he kills anyone
he's paid to kill. That's what it comes down to.
And because this dude had a contract out on him
that people kept failing. At first, the police thought, specifically
a police thought like, oh, the only way to get
to him was to have his own crew kill him.
And then Richard's like, no, they tried all those other people,
and then they paid me to kill him. It's assumed

(35:56):
on the Internet that the reason they didn't come straight
to Richard is because they were friends and they didn't
think Richard would take money to kill his friend. And
then when they offered him money, he's like okay, cool,
and then Royd DeMeo winds up dead, Wow frozen. Peter Calibro.
Peter Calibro was a thirty six year old NYPD auto
crimes detective who was shot to death. And when you

(36:17):
think that, you're like, he killed a cop. This guy
was supposedly a dirty cop with mob connections who was
under investigation for selling info to the Gambino crime family.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
I mean, in that era, there's a lot of super
super common.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
I think there was a time where the Crime Task
Force in New York City was gutted because two thirds
of its members were thought to be not sought but
like found to be guilty of organized crime. There's a
movie about it called American Gangster, which is about like
taking down the people who were hired to break up
the mafia.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
So really what it comes down to. There's a lot
of good mob movies out there.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
There are. Yeah, this guy, in particular, Calibro, he had
a wife who drowned under suspicious circumstances three years earlier,
who was apparently connected to a lesser mob or mafia
or in some way, shape or form, Like maybe it
wasn't lesser, maybe it was just like an unknown or
maybe the connection isn't as clear as I found to
Gambino's crime family. But what is known is that when

(37:17):
he was shot to death, the police barely investigated it.
They immediately assumed it was revenge for his wife being drowned,
because everyone assumed it was him that did it. Wow,
And Richard was like, oh no, I like waited in
a bush and I shot him to death, Like that's
how he died. I was hired by the Gambino crime
family to kill him. They hated him so much they
gave me the gun to do it, like because they
knew he was the Cyanaid guy. They're like, no, we

(37:38):
want you to blow his fucking brains out. So the
last one is probably the highest profile person that he's
ever mentioned. I mean, Richard himself is pretty famous. As
far as like murderers, serial killers, hit Mango, but he
was asked a lot about his involvement with the disappearance
of Jimmy Hoffa. Jimmy Hoffa is probably one of the

(37:58):
most famous disappearances of the twentieth century. He was the
president of the Teamsters Union, vanished without a trace. It
was never heard from again or found. He has been
missing since July thirtieth, nineteen seventy five.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Jimmy Hoffa's story is like crazy shit.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah, so in this particular case. When he was asked, originally,
Richard said I wasn't involved. I don't know who did it.
Later in his life he claimed, yeah, I did it.
I was part of a four man team that I
brought on to go kidnap and kill Jimmy Hoffa. They
went into Detroit, which was the place he was last seen.
They snatched him, shoved him into a car. While they
had him in the car, Richard stabbed him to death

(38:35):
with a large hunting knife. They drove from Detroit to
New Jersey during the night, and once they got there,
they tossed Jimmy Hoffa's body into a drum, set him
on fire, then buried him in a junkyard. At one
point after the murder, one of the people of the
four crew was arrested, and everyone got really nervous that

(38:56):
because you could basically give the location of Jimmy Hoffa
and get away with any crime. Because it was such
a high profile disappearance, that they dug up the drum,
they tossed it in the back of a car in
the junkyard and crushed it into a cube, and then
they immediately sold that cube, along with like several hundred
other cube cars to Japan for scrap metal so it

(39:16):
could be shipped out of the country.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
And that's why we've never seen anything about Jimmy.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
That's why he says you've never found him. You'll never
find him, like he's basically gone. His body's been incinerated
and crushed. And a lot of people dispute this. A
lot of people dispute a lot of his confessions. In fact,
they think that he's just like saying it for the
notoriety of it and the fame. And you can go
back and forth on whether or not he did or
did not do some of these things, especially when someone

(39:41):
says I killed up to one hundred to two hundred people.
I basically lost count. What is known is this dude
was an absolute fucking monster and he had a relatively
odd end to his life. So in October two thousand
and five, he gets diagnosed with something called Kawasaki disease,
which is an illness that brings on fever and like
the swelling of certain parts of your body. Like, uh,

(40:03):
they could describe this a lot better.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
But essentially, is it like autoimmune or something like that.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
I couldn't tell you that. Oh. What I can tell
you is that this is like a disease that typically
afflicts kids under the age of five, and they normally
get through it in like several days, but it can
cause like cardiac arrest, especially if it's someone older, and
there's certain other complications that can come from it. He
gets transferred to a hospital from the prison because of this,
and he tells the doctor like, YO, if my heart stops,

(40:27):
I want you to bring me back, like I want
to be revived, and they're like, all right, cool. They
think it's weird, so they check his medical records. He
has a DNR on file. The DNR is signed for
and like executed by his ex wife, Barbara, So they
call his ex wife and they're like, hey, this dude
has a DNR. He said he doesn't want us to

(40:49):
honor it, should we? They like call her for clarification.
She's like, no, don't resuscitate.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
I mean that it seems sus if. Tell the doctors
bring me back.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
And they call his ex wife, who clearly is gonna
want him dead. Oh, and she says, honor the dn R.
Don't bring him back. He doesn't go into cardiac arrest
from this, but five months later he dies March fifth,
two thousand and six, from cardiac arrest, and they don't
try and resuscitate him because they honored the DNR that
his wife said to keep him place. And that is
how Richard Koklinsky died.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
I mean, he had a long life.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
He did. A lot of it was spent in prison
and the other part of it was spent killing people.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeap.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
So it's a horrid life. There have been a ton
of iterations of Richard Koklinsky in the media, including the
movie called The Iceman, which was released in twenty twelve,
where he is played by Michael Shannon, who is an
amazing actor.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Who's Michael Shannon.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
You wouldn't remember of anything aside from Zod and Man
of Steel.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
Oh okay, okay, so.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
He I've never seen it. It apparently has one on
a writer Chris Evans and ray Leota in it. Oh wait,
which obviously means we should watch I.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Was gonna say All Star Cast and we haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
I only knew Michael Shannon as the iceman, and I've
always wanted to see it, but I've never watched it.
We clearly need to watch it now. But I think
people should make movies that include the guy who spent
eighteen months of his fucking life buddy buddy to this
dude so they could catch him, Dominic Polofrone. They interviewed
him in twenty twenty, so only four years ago, and
they wanted to know, like, hey, do you actually believe

(42:20):
he killed one hundred to two hundred people? And he said, quote,
I don't believe he killed two hundred people. I don't
believe he killed one hundred people. I'll go as high
as fifteen maybe end quote. Fifteen is still a fucking
scary high number. Yeah, it's like, yeah, he didn't kill
a hundred, Maybe fifteen, like maybe one is scary to

(42:40):
hear about a human being maybe fifteen is horrifying. So
he was still a very awful human being, but he
doesn't want to give him the credit of he's not
this like legendary hit man that he's led folks to believe.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
I mean, he's still an ace.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Here's the thing, he's so much he didn't kill any
these people in the air an ace. Okay, Kazanski is
the only ace we all know that actually is he.
I don't think he should five.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
I'm pretty sure only Maverick, right, Maverick is an ace.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Maverick's an ace because he's shot DOWNE five, I don't think.
I don't think Val Kilmer shot down more than one.
Maybe I have to rewatch Top Gun Now too. A
lot of movies in our que now. I did wonder
when I was writing this though, that he gets sixty years,
he's gonna have to serve there's no way out of it.
And then he starts confessing to all these other murders.
It really felt to me when I was reading through this,

(43:32):
like he might have received word from someone that you
need to confess to more and more killings so those
killings won't be investigated any first. Oh okay, Like that's
just my speculation and the reason I have this because, like,
I'll be honest, if it were me, if I was
the head of the mafia and this was my go
to guy to kill people and I know he was caught,

(43:54):
I'd be like, look, bro, like I'm telling you to
do this. Yeah, confess these other ones. They don't find
out what happened with the rest of them. Confess to
as many as you fucking can build yourself a legend.
And usually that sort of a threat is like, or
will have you fucking killed in prison, or will kill
you kids, or we'll tell your ex wife to not

(44:14):
honor your requests to me.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
There's a lot of.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Things that they could have done, and he did seem
to actually genuinely love his kids, so you never know.
That's just my speculation of the fact that I'm like
in mafia mode right now after reading all this stuff,
is like, maybe like the legend of the Iceman that
he tried to build for himself was a narrative spun
to prevent further investigation into murders that could have exposed
more and more. But that's just where my brain is

(44:40):
so pretty fucking crazy story. This dude was an absolute
monster a lot of the folks that he killed were
in some way, shape or form connected to shady business
dealings or organized crime. But it doesn't change the fact
that there were multiple people in his life that just
offended him, so they were killed. And those of the folks,
most tragically that were never really discovered, just talked about

(45:02):
and bragged by him. Yeah, but those are the folks
that weren't brought to trial. Some folks have never had
their body recovered that he's talked about killing, and he
was adept at like hiding people's bodies and show.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
I mean, how okay, how many houses out there do
you think just have dead bodies in their walls?

Speaker 2 (45:18):
A lot? Yeah, Yeah, I think there's more out there
than you would guess. Yeah, which is a scary thing
to think about. So new builds, only new builds, folks.
Hopefully they don't have a body buried in your foundation,
because that's a really good place to put it when
they're pouring it. But AnyWho, that, my spooky friends is
Richard Koklinsky aka the Iceman. Bam, don't send this topic

(45:44):
off with the top Gun theme song. He is not
worthy of it.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Oh man, we just got to watch Top gun after this.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Okay, a lot of movies, but yeah, that's everything for me.
I really like wanted to get into one that's like
true crime and organized crime related to just kind of
like hit the spot.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
I have fascination with organized crime mafia, Like, oh my gosh,
it's just the things that these people do because they
control so much of these cities, and these people they're
in everyone's pockets and it's just I mean.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
If you really want to dig into the history of
like organized crime in the country and the way organized
crime was kind of dismantled in the late eighties, nineties,
early two thousands, there's some fascinating stuff you can really
dig into. So yeah, maybe I'll make it Mafia November
or something like that. But you have the actually you
don't have the next topic. We have a special guest
next episode, and then the episode after that is you.
So by then it might be the end of November,

(46:39):
so we'll see what happened.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yeah, we got a lot going on in our life
at the end of.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
The year here, So sincerely, hope you folks enjoyed this topic.
If you would like to tell us a story, it
does not have to be about you being a serial
killer or you knowing you know Richard Koklinsky, anything like that,
anything supernatural, paranormal, true crime, extraterrestrial, or just coincidental. You're like,
I thought I saw Goes and it turned out as
a cat. Doesn't that be specific? Feel free to reach
out to us by emailing Storytime at scarish dot com.

(47:04):
That is our email address, or go to our website
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on one of our episodes there called Storytime, where we

(47:24):
read your homegrown horrores so that folks can hear what's
happened to you. Because it's kind of exciting to hear
your story read and people are also very entertained by them,
So feel free to send this to us, Yeah, Robin.
For folks who would like to donate to us, how
can they do so?

Speaker 1 (47:36):
You can go to Patreon dot com slash Scarish Podcast
tears start at a dollar, So anything you guys are
willing to donate, we accept anything helps, and we're so
thankful to everybody who supports us, whether that's you know, donating,
sharing us with your friends, forcing them to listen to

(47:56):
us on road trips. You know, you guys are great.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Yeah, weppreciate it, we really do, and thank you for
listening to this. And that's everything we have for episode
three oh three. So Robin go ahead and sign us out, keep.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
On creeping on and we'll talk to you guys later.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Ah bye.

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