Anita Sarkar // How To Sell Anything Online

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't think there's right time for anything, not with kids,

(00:01):
not with business, not with like talking to your friends
about certain things. It's just do things and try things
and then a lot of the things won't work out,
and a lot of things will work out. But you've
got to do so many things. If you don't have
the foundations, you cannot take risks. You should be a
risk taker only when you've got the foundation sorted. If
you follow what the market wants and know what you want,

(00:22):
you will be successful. If you follow what you want
and not what the market wants, you won't be successful.
And that's the truth.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Busy and happy are not the same thing. We too
rarely question what makes the heart seeing. We work, then
we rest, but rarely we play and often don't realize
there's more than one way. So this is a platform
to hear and explore the stories of.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Those who found lives.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
They adore, the good, bad and ugly.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
The best and worst day will bear all the facets
of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful
of Sarah, a lawyer turned funentrepreneurshos wapped the Suits and
Heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk bar
CZA is a series of conversations on finding a life
you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and

(01:10):
fulfillment along the way. Welcome back, Lovely neighborhood. I hope
the new financial year is treating you well so far,
which might sound like a weird thing to say, but
since many of you have likedly been drawn to this
episode because you're business owners, I think it does actually
make a lot of sense. I'm so excited to share
today's episode with you, not only because our guest is

(01:31):
infinitely knowledgeable and a delight to chat with, but also
because it ended.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Up a little different to usual.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Anita Saka and I have been mutually found girling for
many years now, doing a product partnership, doing speaking gigs together,
plus living in different states in both being mums. It's
taken us a while to make this happen. But one
of the many things I love about her is her
insatiable curiosity. Because of that, she not only didn't really
want to spend time on the parts of her origin

(01:57):
story or pathier that have been exhaustively covered elsewhere, which
you know, is something I also think about a lot.
But she also asked me more questions back than any
guest has before, which made for a slightly chaotic, very tangential,
surprisingly vulnerable, but extremely enjoyable conversation that possibly reveals more
about both of us as people than our normal structure

(02:20):
ever could have. But her path yay is incredibly inspiring,
interesting and impressive, so I have to quickly give you
a rundown so you know the genius that you're dealing with.
Born in India as the daughter of a doctor, Anita
started out on your typical high achieving pathway at KPMG
before quickly realizing her yay lay elsewhere after multiple different
business experiments. Early on elucidating that endless curiosity, we spoke

(02:43):
about touching on a makeup, photography and customized leather goods.
She co founded Hero Packaging from her dining table, which
has now grown to be a global supplier of over
thirty million combustible mailers. Addressing plastic usage in shipping, This
incredible b corporation makes compostible, custom and ready to ship mailers, boxes, labels,

(03:05):
and tissue paper.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
And if you think you've heard of them, before.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
That's because CZA is just one of her seventy three
thousand happy customers. You may also know Anita as the
brains behind sell Anything Online, a bustling community, the banner
under which she's published two amazing books and the Ultimate
Evolving playbook on the wild world of e commerce. She
has mastered the art of building brands, telling stories, and

(03:31):
continually reinventing yourself. And we're so lucky that she shared
so many practical tips in between our yapping today. I
was furiously taking notes, and I'm sure most of you
will as well.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Somehow.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
She's also a mum of three in between all of
this and building a brand new business at the moment.
So if you're after a dose of inspiration, Anita is it.
I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did. Anita, Hi,
Welcome to Cca.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
We have been trying to make this happen for it's
been six months.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Can I can I come? Now? Can I come? And
like we can't make this work?

Speaker 2 (04:07):
I'm glad I'm here though, and you're actually in person,
in the best so exciting, Oh my gosh, Well, thank
you so much.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
For being here.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
I feel like anything worth doing takes at least seventy
five reschedules in this day and age, and it just
makes it all the more special when it does happen.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
But I mean, we've got to manage the work schedules.
And then also you're obviously in Melbourne, I'm in Sydney.
The kids, like, there's just so many variables, so to
make it is a miracle. It's actually a miracle. Actually,
that's a big celebration to be had.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
I'm really really proud of us making it today, and
because I mean we've been mutually fan girling each other
for many many years now. So I actually was really
overwhelmed last night trying to work out what I wanted
to concentrate on, because I mean, you have two incredible books,
you have so much content across so many platforms and
as such a fountain of knowledge that I was like,

(04:59):
I only have an hour, like I need to do
on Anita mini series to just get out everything that
I want to get out. So it was really hard
to kind of choose where to go. And for that reason,
I think a lot of people listening will already follow
you and might know your origin story. Founding Hero, which
is actually your second business and actually not your second project.

(05:19):
There have been many along the way, so I don't
want to spend too long. I think we discussed this
off air, not spending too long on all the steps,
because you can hear that elsewhere. But I think it's
important to touch on a few of the dot points
just to give context. Okay, so maybe let's start there,
because the path ya to the life that you live
now is the bit that doesn't get as much airtime.
It's the bit that I think is reassuring to people

(05:41):
who are earlier on in their journey because we meet
you now, you're a CEO, You're incredibly successful and have
so much knowledge.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh, I will stop you there, because it's like the
incredibly successful thing is such a that's what you see
on social media and stuff. So I will stop you because, okay,
let me give you some context of like how this happened? Yes,
and I am here. And it's so funny because when
people ask me questions, first of all, they're always like,
how did you start Hero Packaging? But actually that's such
a bye the bye, Like there's so much else that

(06:10):
has brought me to Hero Packaging. But I don't know
how far you want me to go back. We can
go back to nineteen eighty seven.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
I was born in nineteen eighty seven, okay, so I
want to go back to good arright India and a
research girl, a research okay, a research So I want
to go back that far because I think, like you said,
like everyone focuses on how did you found Hero? Because
that's the chapter we walk in on now, and that
we think is started when like I think people assume

(06:38):
you fell onto the planet and started Hero. Well, I
love on this show is the context from your childhood.
It is, like I mean, even the fact that you're
the daughter of a doctor and there's a lot.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Of pressure on you to interpret success and chase.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
A certain kind of success and you didn't do that,
and so there's many people who face those pressures in
finding their pathway. I love that you're the daughter of
a doctor and it wasn't your dad who was the doctor,
it's your mum who's the doctor.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Of that in itself is really unique. And it's even
more unique that my dad was a musician. Yeah, and
like my mum was his groupie and she was the
one studying and he's really smart, like he did PhD
of mathematics and stuff, but his whole life is like
music and being on stage. And so I saw them
as really high achievers growing up, and they were like,

(07:26):
you know, obviously came from India, and we were just
trying to like fucking survive, like you know, going to
all these little different vegetable shops and being like this
carrot is cheaper here. Then, you know, like all that stuff.
And every Saturday night I would see my dad perform
at different people's houses so that he could make friends.
And then that's how they kind of got their family friends.

(07:48):
Like he would sing for people and then other people
would invite him over and we would just go. And
I remember like, because I was little, I would sleep
on his lap on stay at the front, and he'd
sing for people. And then and like I remember the
adoration that people had for him, and I was like,
I really want that. I didn't think about it consciously,
it was really subconscious, but I really want that recognition.

(08:09):
And then my mom being a doctor. She I don't
know if you know Sydney very well, but she's a
doctor in Paramatta and Sydney which is like western suburbs
and a lot of Indian people live in Paramatta and
Harris Park, so she became like the doctor to go
to if you're Indian and so, and then the adoration
for her was so extreme too. And like once we

(08:29):
went to Egypt and you know, someone at Egypt airport
was like, are you doctor Pollu No, and like it
happens all the time, and then they'll go and they'll
see my dad and like I grew up with like, yes,
it was like a struggle financially, la la la. But
I actually grew up seeing them as like like people
like worship them, That's what I thought, and they recognized

(08:49):
them and stuff, and I was like, I don't know
if I could ever be that person. I never what
am I going to do? And so I had I
grew up wanting that, and then I took the good
girl pathway, like the pathway, you know, that's what you
have to do. But I wasn't getting the recognition. And
I remember thinking like, well, I quit my accounting job.
Then I tried media and I quit that. Then I

(09:09):
went into marketing and I quit that and I actually
literally could not figure out for the life of me
while I was quitting because the people are so nice, Like, yes,
accounting sucks, but other than that, marketing was great. Went
to nice lunches in media, like the people were amazing,
the culture is so good. And I'm quitting all the time,
quitting within ten months and I couldn't figure it out.
And I realized only recently that I love recognition. And

(09:34):
that's such a bad thing to say, because it sounds
really selfishous, like saying I like money, you know what
I mean. But I've come to realize that. I think
growing up, I saw my parents really want like have that,
and all I really wanted was recognition, and I wanted
them to say like, wow, I'm so proud of you.
And one day I'd like to be like they would
be my parents, not me being their daughter, if that

(09:55):
makes sense. When I went out in public, so anyway,
that's what I decided to do, like I quit every thing.
And when I realized that for myself, and I started
a business and then I started to do little bits
of content and I saw people on social and then
out on the street and stuff who would say like,
I really like your content. I was like, oh my god,
I'm getting I'm getting recognition. It sounds petty, though, right,

(10:17):
like when you say something like that, like why do
you care what other people think? It's just something that
I have grown up with and it's just something I
always wanted. And so now when you say, like, oh
my god, I researched you to me, the girl who
I look up to has researched, I know it sounds bad,
but it's like, it doesn't sound matter. It's just so
nice to hear that, Like you knew that I was

(10:39):
born in Goodrath in India. That's so fucking wile that
you researched me and so interesting. But it's so nice
to feel like, oh my god, have I made it
like Sarah fucking Davidson.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Nose where I was born Sarah. And you know what's
really interesting is that that honesty is quite rare.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
I think the self reflection.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
You must have done to have worked out through the many,
many chapters that you've had that that is part of
what gives you fulfillment is so important because I think
the common threat in everyone's path Yay on the show
and otherwise, is that we spend a long time chasing
lots of different things and figuring out what the things
are worth chasing.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
That actually matter to us.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
And I think that where people go awry is where
they chase things that matter to other people and they
don't figure out what actually matters to them. So true,
and there is definitely a bit of a negative connotation
with seeking external validation.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
I think there's so much around.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
I don't do it for other people. I do it
for myself. But it's actually okay to acknowledge that that
adoration and that kind of external reinforcement is something that
makes you feel really good and when you're not getting it,
you aren't fulfilled. It's actually okay to acknowledge the jigsaw
puzzle pieces that were missing for you and how good
it felt when you found them.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
It's so right, like I think, because everyone tells you've
got to find that within your and I do. There
is a lot of that that you have to but
it is nice to recognize that that's what I need
in my life too. I need a little bit more recognition,
and so when I realize that I can actually create
a pathway that gets me that sort of stuff, as
well as having the stability, Like I am happy at home,

(12:17):
I've got a nice family, and I'm also happy inside,
but I also get that recognition too makes me happy
on all fronts.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, and I think one of the most worthy thing
that anyone can do is look at all the buckets
of different kinds of success. I think this is where, yeah,
things get really complicated, is that we worship particular kinds
of success, but look at all of them and then
match up yourself and your decisions based on the ones
that suit you, because they're not all going to look

(12:44):
the same. And I think, yeah, we spend too much
time chasing titles, finances, stability, parents, expectations. Yeah, not realizing
it's okay. If your definition of success is different.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
It's yours.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
And I love that. That's a really great question, and
I haven't had to articulate it in a little while.
I would say it's changed a lot over the past
for ten months, and if anything, I think I'm now
in a chapter where i've my answer is very confused
because I think before parenthood, let's take parenthood out of it.

(13:18):
Oh see, that's why it's so hard to answer. It's
similar to you in that it's it is more external
than I probably have acknowledged before. It's the I think
I would define it by impact. It's not so much
the fame recognition of it. It's the verbalization of someone

(13:39):
having been impacted positively by something that I said, or
did or put out there. So that's why I do.
I love podcasting, but I find that unless I can
meet the listeners and hear that it has been worth
it for them, then my measure of success numbers alone
or downloads alone in the abstract is not enough. I
need to yeah, yeah, and not in a recognition sense,

(14:02):
but more in a I want And I hate this
phrase so much, but I can't think of a better one.
I want to know that something I did move the
dial for someone else along their pathway and hearing that
to me, I don't think I did when I was
doing Matro made and I think that that's maybe why
I wanted to sell in the end, because the metrics

(14:25):
in business for me personally were very much focused around
revenue and growth year on year, profitability, you know that
kind of like sales figures and the shells were on
and I was like, that doesn't show me impact. I
don't get to meet enough customers, and the bigger the
business gets, the less I spend time in that role

(14:46):
interacting with people on the ground. Whereas doing content you
get dams back of all the time that particular piece
of content was useful for me because blah, and I
think it's yeah similar, I realized the business helped me
take one step out of corporate, but I needed to
take a further step towards I need the people facing
and I wasn't getting that. Yeah, And that was my

(15:07):
yet lesson of Okay, this success. I'm getting lots of success,
but not the kind that I need. And so let's
pivot a little bit just to give you clarity.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
From my point of view, you have given me a
lot of impact, like, and you've impacted also my friends.
I'll tell you a little story. So one of my
really good friends is Claire from l Row Jewelry, and
you collaborated with them love come.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
So the stuff that she said about you was just
so like it was probably one of their best that
they've ever done. Like they restocked your stuff one hundred
times over, and like do they just love you? And
I love you, like you actually have had impact on people,
you know what I mean? And me, thank you. I
just want to say that just so like you have

(15:49):
that from my point of view as well.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Oh, that's really kind, and that was such a lovely
question because I haven't reflected on that in a little while,
and I think I will come to this because this
is a question I wanted to ask you about out
from a macro perspective. So firstly, I'm going all over
the place here. My brain's just way too excited for
anyone listening who wants to hear more about the actual
chronology of Anita's journey. You did an incredible episode recently

(16:12):
of The Payoff with Sylvia Jeffery Yes, and an episode
with Mark Buris on The Mentor, and you kind of
go through the chronological process of the different businesses you've
found leaving KPMG, the different businesses you've founded first exiting
Olivia and co starting Hero and if anyone wants more
detail there, please go and listen to those episodes. It
was brilliantly done. But from a macro perspective, what I

(16:34):
wanted to ask you is you have done makeup photography,
a packaging business, a content you're people facing.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Now you've got your personal brand.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
You've just started a new business called Future Memories, and
I wanted to ask you about the art of reinvention
because I think you have been brilliant at knowing when
is the time for the next chapter. And all of
the chapters have been very different from each other. They're
never just copy and pasting the same thing. You've gone
from B to B to you're the brand like your product.

(17:04):
You've got a product business. And then if you're a
business where you're the product, how do you know when
it's time for a new chapter?

Speaker 1 (17:11):
How do you choose what that chapter? There's no planning.
I would love to know your process because you have
done planning. Like I just think, yolo, that's how That's
how I live my life. Like I am like, I
just feel like we only get this one life. And
if someone is like personal brand is the next thing,
I'm like, I want to do it too. Like if
someone is saying to me like, oh, I've got this

(17:32):
business idea, like do you want to help me to
do xoz, I'll be like, let's go. If someone says
like go to Adelaide and like speak on stage about plants,
I'll be like, let's go. I just I and then
if I like it, I'll start building a business or
content around that. And like there's no plan or structure
in this world. For me, it's just there's no right
timing or anything, and I don't think there's right time

(17:53):
for anything, not with kids, not with business, not with
like talking to your friends about certain things. It's just
you just do things and try things, and then a
lot of the things won't work out, and a lot
of things will work out, but you've got to do
so many things, Like I love that, I love that
I've probably got how old am I'm thirty seven, so
maybe like another fifty years or something to do everything

(18:13):
that I can possibly do. So I'm trying it all.
And why not? Is it an itch that you get?

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Because I posted something last night saying that I personally
feel like I've reached a stage where I have big
new chapter energy, yes, but not enough time or brain
space to work out what that chapter.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
It's also because you're really looking after Teddy at the moment.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, I've got the itch, but I don't have the
space to create.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Of course it is.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Do you get an itch? So for everyone listening, Anita
had Olivia and Co. Was your first business? Yes, and
that was a monogramming leather goods and accessories business. You've
since exited that, then the packaging plastic issue in that
business led to Hero Packaging, Yes, and that has now
got seventy three thousand customers. It is a multi billion

(18:57):
dollar business. But then you've since got how to sell
anything online. Like do you get itchy point in time?
Is it curiosity?

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, it's curiosity. That's exactly what it is. Okay, It's
like I want to see if I can do it, Okay, yeah,
Like it's so fun. Also, I'm not doing that many things,
I don't think. You don't think. I feel like it's
a lot of different things. I don't think. So like
you could argue that about everybody and like all their
hobbies and what they want to do and stuff. I
am really picking the things that I really want to

(19:25):
do in my life. But I have to say as well,
I have the privilege of, like I have a husband
who does a lot of the parenting too, So like
I think we should just like be really clear about that,
because if I was doing the majority of the parenting,
there's absolutely no way you can like run like multiple
businesses and go traveling and do this and like speak
on stage and then go into state for this and

(19:47):
da da da. It's not possible. So there is a
privilege there, and I think a lot of if we're
speaking to women, a lot of women don't have the
same opportunity. So I don't want to be like, just
do it, it's easy. Yeah, it's not easy. And when
I am parenting and I find myself on my phone
and when the kids are around and I'm just like

(20:07):
doing things, and then I catch myself and like, this
is not work time. So I think when you don't
have the space, you don't have the space. But if
you've got the itch, I think the question is kind
of like if you've got the each where you don't
have the space, like or the time, what do you do?
I think you can have the building blocks to understand
what to do when you do have time and space,
because one of the biggest things about doing something is

(20:27):
planning for it. So, for example, on a really small scale,
if I want to create like thirty pieces of content, right,
I know that I don't have the time and the
space if I've got the kids or I'm doing something
and I'm busy. So what I'll do when I have
even five minutes is make a plan of everything that
I need to create. And so when it comes time
where I do have ten minutes free time, that's the

(20:48):
time where I've gone create it. So same thing with
everything else. Like if you want to, for example, I
don't know, like write a book, you need to plan
it out, write out all the chapters, like the titles,
and then go and write when you have the time,
not think about it at that time, because thinking and
executing at the same time is impossible. I love that.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
But that's so fascinating that you do do so much
planning for your ideas once you have them.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
But at a macro level you don't think about your chundry.
Is that such a contrary? I just say yes, yes, yes, yeah, interesting,
figure it out, okay.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
So one of the things I've read that you've said,
so maybe for anyone who has tuned into this because
they want to start a business, have started a business,
or have reached that really difficult part in business where
the starting isn't actually as hard as growing it. Like
I feel like launching a business, you get a lot
of momentum from novelty. It's then after that it gets
a little bit hard to grow it. But I feel
like a lot of people will have tuned in, you know,

(21:40):
at any of those stages because they're interested in business.
One of the things that I have always said, which
I now scale back, is find a gap in the
market where you're the consumer and follow your passion. And
I loved reading from you that you recommend the opposite
that you can't just go and do what you want
to do. You have to do what the market wants
you to do. So start there, maybe, Yeah, tell us

(22:01):
about when you do have a new idea, how do
you reverse engineer what you're going to do with it.
Because I stumbled into Matcher, I wasn't like the market
needs a Matcher.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
I was like, I want Matcher. Yes, I mean that's
great and it worked so the the time. I don't
know about now. Well, ideally you have something that you
love and then also what the market wants, and then
you make a lot of money off of that, because
that is just perfect. But if you have to choose
between what you want and what the market wants, you
have to go with the market. I believe I will
always I will die on that hill like I and

(22:31):
a lot of people. When I said that on the
other podcast, a lot of people kind of got a
little angry at me, and they were saying you know,
follow your passion, like I followed mine and I'm successful,
and I think that's amazing for you. But what you've
actually done is followed your passion and you've found what
the market wants. You haven't just followed your passion. The
market wants it, and therefore you're successful. So, for example,

(22:53):
if you follow what the market wants and not what
you want, you will be successful. If you follow what
you want and not what the market wants, you want
be successful. And that's the truth. Yeah, it's really hard
to figure out what that is. I want to ask
you a question though, right, Yeah, because like you speak
all the time, you've got this podcast, you've tried a business.

(23:13):
So when you say you've got the itch, like, are
you wanting to start something for you something that you've
been passionate about, or is it because like you've seen
a gap in the market. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
So this is actually why this is selfishly a really
good time for me to talk to you, is because
when we started Match Maiden, it was very much I
saw a gap in the market because I was in
the gap. So it's like what I was passionate about
and what the gap in the market was aligned and
timing aligned. Everything was like all these divine circumstances aligned.
Plus I was itchy to find something beyond my corporate pathway.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Now it's a little bit different.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
I don't have the idea, and that's very unusual because
normally I have the idea and then I make space
for it. Now I've got the itch for the next
project and not the idea. So that was my question
for you. Is I always used to say, like, if
you want to start a business, don't reverse engineer the idea.
Wait until you've got something that you are intimately familiar with,
or that's in your wheelhouse, or that you've got some

(24:10):
connection to. But hearing you say the opposite advice was
really interesting to me because I was like, actually, you
can reverse engineer an idea. Like speaking to, you know,
the founders of July recently, they were like, we have
no idea about suitcases, Like we're not suitcase experts.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
We just realized that there was a gap.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
I was like, oh, maybe you should reverse engineer the
idea by looking at what gaps are available to exploit,
even if you don't have a connection with that.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
I was like, maybe I was doing it all wrong.
I don't think you're doing it wrong. I think it's
more like I actually don't think there are that many
gaps anymore in the market. There are thousands of businesses
starting every single day trying to fill gaps, and there's
no more gap. So everything is competitive, everything is commoditized,
Everything looks the same to everybody. What you need to
do is find something that you really think that you
can do well in. So like something maybe that is

(24:55):
a passion point for you, and then look at all
the businesses that are doing it and look where they're
going wrong, like look at all their bad reviews, and
look at lists, do some social listening, and type into
TikTok for example, whatever the industry that you want to
go into, type that in, see what customers are saying
about current brands, see where they're going wrong, and then
that's your gap. So that can be your specialty. I

(25:15):
don't necessarily think you can find a gap and it's
going to be perfect for the market. And then you
solve a problem. Every single problem I reckon has been solved. Yeah,
just solve it in a different way. Solve it in
a different way, and you could have your own spin
on things. And it's something that you are passionate about.
It's something that you might not be passionate about. But
if you're starting a business and you think I don't
know what to start it in, really think about like

(25:37):
the industries you would love to go into, and then
just look at the brands that are doing it, look
at the bad stuff, and then create something that makes
that part of it better. And that's your advantage. Oh
I love that.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
That was another piece of advice I took from this book.
So your latest book, How to Sell Anything Online, is
incredibly practical. It's almost like it's own funnel, funneling you
through all the other funnels that you should go through
when you do start a business. And one thing I
found interesting was looking at your competitors bad reviews, because
people don't often think of that. I don't think that's
like an intuitive thing you would think.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Of, Oh, you don't stalk your competitors bad reviews. No.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
I never did, but that's because we started in such
a different climate. There weren't any competitors, whereas now, of
course I would be doing that. So anyone listening, that's
a really good tip. I also think, God, I'm so
all over the place, takes I have so many things
to ask you. I also think another thing that I
found really interesting about the way you've done things is
you have two very different streams of business for yourself.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
You have Hero, which is a product.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Business, and then you have how to sell anything online,
which you have decided not to monetize. So that's also
kind of a contrasting. Decision to make one thing your
big monetizer and then you've kept one thing is kind.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Of actually libor let me tell you. Yeah, so explain, explain,
Explain the money side of it. Okay, So here at packaging,
it's an amazing business sometimes and sometimes I am like,
how will we survive this? And so there have been
times where we've like really really screwed up and we
have had no money. And the first thing that happens
is I check my revenue every single minute of the
day because I'm so worried that it's not going to come.

(27:05):
And so like when we are struggling with Hero and
those months where you think we didn't make a profit.
The reason I have created a personal brand is it's
my plan B for life because I'm so scared that
I will not succeed, and my husband is in the
business as well. And so if it doesn't do well,
when we stop paying ourselves, I have to have money

(27:26):
coming in from somewhere else. So when I say I've
stopped monetizing it, I've stopped monetizing it for the everyday
person who listens to me. But I monetize it through brands,
bigger brands who pay me to make content. But I'm
not doing coaching. I'm not doing like one on one
cause I'm not having like a course or anything like that.
I just need to make sure that I have enough
money coming in there so that when I go to

(27:46):
Woolies and I can put down my card and not
worry that today Hero hasn't given me enough money. And
that's the truth. Like this is it happens all the time.
There was a day like about a year ago or
maybe a year and a half, and was with my
girls at Wooli's and I tried to pay and it
was like no, like it got declined, and I looked
in the bank account and it was like a negative

(28:07):
thirty one dollars or something. And then people say, oh,
that you're so successful, la la la. It's not the
case like when you're in business every day is so different,
and so I think that's just something I really want
to say. Is like, the reason I have a personal
brand is actually my plan being in life's so if
you're hedging your best literally, so I will build an
audience that is so strong that no matter what I start,

(28:30):
they can some of them will follow me there and
I can monetize that in that way. And it's I
love creating content. It is I love marketing. I love
e commerce so much and I'm happy to be able
to do that. But in all honesty, it is a
plan B. It's a money thing for me to know why.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
I mean, I love that you even own up to that,
because I think that most people wouldn't actually vocalize that,
and because there is pressure to say here, I is
doing so well, like to have that external perception that
it's bulletproof and that you do your personal branding on
the side, because it's so scary.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
It's scary to be in business, Like it's not easy.
You could be at like thirty million dollars and be
scared every day. Yeah, you know you've got like the
Jane Lues who are at a hundred million dollars and
you know she's doing really well, and that's fine, but
we're not talking about that. We're talking about like my
size business and smaller and the struggles at the moment
with small business owners who are trying so hard to

(29:27):
like pay the next bill and then they get the
ATO debt and they're like, they're just they don't know
where to go. I just want them to see that
even though I've been in business for seven years with
Hero Packaging and people think it's super successful, there are
days where I'm really struggling to and I just want
I need everyone to know that it's like they're not
alone in that.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
I love that you are really open about that on
all of your channels, because I also felt that every
single day of matromaidan high or low, But even on
the really high days of a big win, I did
always have this overshadowing like when is it.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
Or goanna run out?

Speaker 2 (30:03):
I never relaxed into the success, and I don't know
what level of success it would have taken for me
to relax into that. And there was a part of me.
I'm not sure if I've ever vocalized this like this,
but there was a part of me that I didn't
ever want to go back to law for what I
had to do day to day.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
In that role. Like I did love parts of it.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
I never thought about going back because I missed the
kind of work I was doing, but it almost by comparison,
felt a bit lazy. I was a bit lazy in
that job. I wasn't lazy. I worked very hard, but
I was lazy in that I just got to sit
and chill and just turn up and do my job.
But leaving on a float was not my role. And
now I always think about that, that relevance trap of

(30:45):
like I need to stay relevant so much so that
you don't enjoy the high moments because you're so worried
they'll be taken away.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
I think we don't talk about that much, and I'm
worried all the time. Yeah, Like I will check sales
and if it's not a certain amount, and then even
if it is at a certain amount, I'm like, I
bet you tomorrow's going to be.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
You can never just relax into it.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
And I think you do have to have the kind
of personality that can cope with that, because for some
people it would be so consuming that you.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Actually, like I love the last page of this book
was your mum asking you. Are you enjoying your business?

Speaker 2 (31:17):
And if you can't have the duality of enjoying and
being scared, then it's not worth it.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
If it's going to.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Cost you your entire joy of your life, yes, then
maybe it's not for you.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
But if you can have both, then it is. I
think you can also train yourself to learn to have
the thinker skin. Yeah, you can learn that. But people
go into a thinking business is the amazing thing. I'm
going to earn so much money? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, And I do wonder if there would have been
a level if I'd ever just enjoyed the stability of it,
because you can create your own stability. Issh. But the
world seems to be moving faster and faster every year,
so I'm like, can you.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
My advice to this is like, create yourself the backup plans. Yes,
have your plan Yes, have the Plan B. Have the
Plan C. So my Plan B is personal brand. My
Plan C is any money that I get I invest
into property, like that is my Plan C. It's my savings.
So while I'm cash poor, I am so cash poor, right,
but I put everything I can into property, so that

(32:17):
that's my savings. So that's my plan C. Yeah, that's
my advice to everyone. Don't put every single thing you
have into this business that you're starting. Don't do it.
It's so risky. It's not even about oh, you could fail,
it's just you need to make sure that at times
when business goes low, which it will, you've got all
this other stuff and you feel okay in your life
because even if that's low, you've got other stuff that

(32:38):
you're looking after, and it's looking after you too.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
It's so interesting for someone who describes herself as very
like a high risk tolerance, like I've read you say
that you love risk, but you're also very you're hedged
against it at the same time.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
So you have to have that foundation where like the
foundation is solid, that's no risk. That is like the
solid building. An audience is solid, and you know that
will serve you in the future. That's a future thing,
not a current thing. The current thing is to just like,
you know, spend all your money now and like just
do whatever you want and whatever. If you don't have
the foundations, you cannot take risks. You should be a

(33:14):
risk taker only when you've got the foundation sorted. That's
what I believe.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yes, oh, my gosh, this is going all kinds of directions.
I'm sorry, I know it's great. It is so interesting,
and I've reflected a lot more than I was expecting
to about times in our businesses. But I do want
to get to picking your brain on what you are
truly brilliant at, and that's distilling an enormous amount of confusing, conflicting,

(33:39):
ever changing information about the land of e commerce into
really digestible snippets of actionable things people can do in
their businesses today. And I think that is why your
platforms have grown so fast, because you are just such
a clear voice of authority in a really approachable, accessible way.
So I'd love to ask you about what you think
are the three most important things right now for an

(34:02):
eco business. What are the things to grow, to grow,
to hedge, to flourish, just to generally safeguard themselves while growing.
I think if you were doing like a you know,
a health check on any kind of econ business right now,
everyone's main objective is to grow, but it's also to
kind of safeguard themselves for the future. It's also to

(34:23):
be able to weather the storm. It's to do marketing
and pr it's to enjoy the ride along the way.
On an overall level, what are the kind of three
things that you look for?

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Okay, Number one, you need to have newness in your
business and you need to innovate or you'll die. And
that's the truth. So in this market, consumers, their share
of wallet is like it's not what it used to be.
People are spending less, and it's not even between competitors.
They're even just choosing between like a whole bunch of
different things, and so they've only got a small amount
of money to spend. Make sure that you are bringing

(34:53):
newness to your business all the time, and that's really
hard because that takes money and time as well. But
the unique of the offering, So like a new collection
or a new product all the time, or like a
limited edition, you know, collaboration with an influencer or some
bring newness to the business. People love that and people
enjoy that, and your customers will love that. You have
to innovate. So the example there is like with Hero,

(35:15):
we had mailers and that's all we did. We just
were like selling mailers. And when we went through a
period where we were going down, I had to take
a risk. Either it's like close the business, or it's
to take our personal savings and invest it into a
newness in the business. And for that it was manufacturing,
and so we bought our first manufacturing machine and luckily

(35:36):
that kind of we got to like serve a new
product to the same people and new product to new people.
So we grew through innovation, and I think everyone should
do that. The second thing I would say is I
could come into any business and I could save you
money because everyone is wasting so much money on so
much shit, because there's so much advice out there, like
this is the perfect tech stack for your business. This
is the perfect thing that you need to do, and

(35:57):
you need to invest in l D L H DA
da DA. I reckon, I could all that shit out. Yes,
you don't need so much of that, right, Like you
just need you your face, You need a few ads running,
like you can make money profitably. And all I want
is to see your bank account. So do you have
a cash runway of three months so that if all
of your expenses, like if you don't make revenue for

(36:18):
three months, for example, can you survive for three months?
That is something that I would absolutely say cash first,
not even profit it's like cash, profit revenue. That's what
you need to think about. That's the second thing, and
the third thing to grow your business is you're going
to need to invest into ads unfortunately. So like the
biggest thing is are you good at creating content? If not,
go learn how to do that and use that content,

(36:40):
the best performing organic content, and put it into your
paid spend and do it in a really economical way. So,
for example, if you know that people are searching for
marcher or like you know, pineapple marcher and they are
actively searching for on Google and you see, okay, seven
hundred people are searching for this keyword, run Google ads
to it. Like, actually run the Google ads forget Facebook

(37:02):
ads and run Google ads. That's my option. Other than that,
if they're not searching for it and you just want
to kind of go, oh, this is a really pretty product,
go onto Facebook ads. But those are my three things.
Like you need the newness, you need to focus on cash,
and then you need to spend money on ads in
order to be everywhere all at once.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, oh my gosh, I think that being everywhere thing,
like the fact that there are I was reading one
of the case studies of I think it was LFKD
maybe of you talking about how it's like eight to
ten touch points in your face before you make a purchase.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
I think it was Stacks and like, yes, it's so true,
Like you need to be everywhere, all at once, and
one of the easiest ways to do that is through
content strategy on all platforms. Like two platforms that you
are absolutely comfortable with, So like for you, it's probably
Instagram and are you on TikTok?

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Yeah? Are you on LinkedIn as well? Do you do
a lot bitt so like that, I would recommend that
as often as you post on Instagram and tito you
post on LinkedIn. I'm not even joking. So like one
platform that you're super uncomfortable with because you don't know
who's watching and it's got reach, Like why wouldn't you
do it? I know for what? For what reason? No one?

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Like I think it is because you're scared of looking silly.
You're scared of it little flop. But I love that
you were saying two platforms you're familiar with too that
you're not And like, for example, right now, where are
you running ads? Are you like running something on everywhere?
Or are you putting all your money into one.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
Are you like the major that AD spend is on
Google because we need to acquire new customers all the time,
and so people are typing in sustainable packaging. Where can
I get sustainable all of that stuff? Is there are ads?
I think about sixty five percent, if not seventy percent
of our AD spent is Google and then Facebook after that.
And I've actually reduced Facebook because packaging is something that

(38:44):
people think about and they only buy it when they
need it, as opposed to I can't just it's disturb
their feet and be like, oh I need a compostible
mailer today, Like it's not like that. So Google is
where I spend everything.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah. Interesting, And there's a couple of tips that were
in the books that I found really useful that were like,
how do you even like, I don't think a lot
of business owners would even know where to look for
what people are searching for? Like, if you do need
to grow your business, what are some of the hacks
of Like you should know what people are.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Searching for in your industry.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
You should be looking at your competitors bad reviews and
improving on those things. Like what are the things you
would tell people to go and do for instant improvers.
Oh my god, go to Google keyword Planner, which is free,
and then type in what you think people are searching for.
It will not only spit out what you think people
are searching for, but also the related searches that people
are actually searching for, and it'll tell you how many

(39:34):
people are searching it for it per month in Australia
and also how much it'll cost you.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
Per click too. Oh my god, that's like the easiest
thing that you can do. It's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
You have distilled it all in a way that sounds
so simple, and I'm sure in your brain the matrix
is really simple. But I think it's so overwhelming for
people who are in especially small businesses, who don't have
the resources to kind of throw at all the platforms
and you know, you want to all of them at once.
But even for me, who's like native to quite a
lot of these platforms, still find some of them like

(40:05):
I have no idea what to post on LinkedIn. I
don't know about length, duration, time of day, format, Like
you're overthinking it whatever.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
I think everyone is everyone. I'm saying it to everyone.
You yeah, plural, yeah, you plural are overthinking it. And
I think if you can like let go of the
what like what time you know that? What time do
I post on Instagram? Is that still a thing? No,
it's not still a thing? Is posted? Good content will
perform regardless of the time, regardless of like the little

(40:35):
caption that you put in there, right, If it's good content,
it will perform. And I'm also uncomfortable posting on LinkedIn
because I've got a lot of like professionals, you know,
and so I found it really hard. But when I did,
it got picked up in a news story and then
it got like, you know, I just spoke about a
hero went through a bad time. Da da dad, you know,
I told the whole story, had a little video in there.
Then I also had another one where Uniclo like used

(40:58):
our tissue paper and they became a client of So
I posted that on LinkedIn and there was a weird
video like it was me going to Uniklo and like
walking down a red carpet or a tissue paper. And
then like the news people picked it up.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
From LinkedIn and it was just amazing, like you don't
know who's watching, Like you've got to be everywhere and
if you're a small business.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Okay, content is your best friend because it's free, and
SEO is your best friend because it's free. But content,
the best thing about it is when you don't know
who's watching, So then that content could get you onto
like articles and news stories and free pr as well.
And then also people could like tag other people and
especially on LinkedIn if someone comments, all their network sees
it too. So to be everywhere all at once, you've

(41:38):
got to put yourself in that really uncomfortable position. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
So do you think, and this is a question I
get all the time, do you think that founders do
have to have their personal brand, like their face out
as well?

Speaker 1 (41:51):
No? I don't think so. If you're not comfortable with it,
don't do it. Like you can have a good product
and have great advertising and you spend a lot on
ads and stuff and you can and it may have
a very successful business. If you look at LSKD Jason,
he wasn't like the face face of it. He grew
a business without his face and he was able to
do that why because he spent a lot of money

(42:12):
on ads And that's the truth. He's like, you've got
to either do the founder content be there and all
the time, and you get out there that way and
it's free, but you've got to spend a lot of
time in it, or you pay a lot of money
to get other platforms to do the work for you. Yeah,
that's interesting. Yeah, so you don't need to do it,
but if you don't do it, you have to kind
of have a Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Okay, what about I see you often do amazing roundups
of what you've seen in the business space in the
last week, or I think you do it every week. Yeah,
what are some of the best strategies that you're seeing
around and some of them I like that you call
some of them unethical but incredibly effective.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
What are some of the.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Things that you've seen done really well that you would recommend.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
I just think you've got to do gorilla marketing as
a small business. So do you know the brand? Girls
get off? So I love what she does. She and
it's it's mortifying to watch because you can't I can't
watch it if my parents are around. I can't watch
it if you know, like my kids are around, even
my husband, I'm like, ah, sorry. She dressed as a
vagina and went to Bondai beach or something, and like

(43:13):
she made people dance in front of her or do
a sexy dance to get a free vibrator. Right, did
that get her a lot of sales from those people?
I don't think so. But what it did was it
stretched out her content for the next six months. Like
you can stretch that out, you can put that into it. Well,
she can't put into ads, but you can put that
into like anywhere you want on your website. It becomes
funny and taggable and shareable and savable and it's free

(43:35):
except for the vagina costume. May have to buy it.
I mean you've probably made that.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
She could make you know, tutorials on how to make
a vagina costume.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
This is the thing that and like people take photos
of it and like tag them, and it just makes
you stand out when like there's so much competition for vibrators,
for example, So I think if you can do goerrilla marketing.
Another one was Apparol. Did you see the one where Aparol,
Like they've got a hundred people to walk around the
CBD with fake Apparol like cocktails and everyone was just

(44:05):
talking about Apparol and like all the tags or apparol,
like the clothes, the trays, the drinks, everything, and it
was just like a sea of people walking around. And yes,
you have to hire one hundred people, but if you've
got friends, like you walk around in like full on merche,
or you can dress up and just walk around the
city and like talk about the brand or like show something.
And I just feel like the gorilla marketing side of

(44:26):
things is not only good for brand awareness, but then
it's good for you because it stretches your content and
puts less pressure on you every day to create something
new because you've got this wild event that you did
that you can like pull pieces from and do that. Similarly,
like if I'm on this podcast and we've got this video,
like I can pull ten pieces of that and like

(44:46):
stretch it out. So you've got to do the thing
that you can use for content and stretch it. So
that's what I would say, Like I love all the
gorilla marketing stuff. What's working for brands right now is
it's really high. It's really really hard to stay interesting,
I will say, and I'll come back to the innovating

(45:07):
of product. I think limited addition, using someone with influence
to co like create a product with you and using
their audience to sell is one of the best ways
to grow to this day. Worked ten years ago and
it works to this day. But you've got to pick
the right person of influence, yes, because like I have

(45:27):
used an influencer in the past two million followers and
I got nothing from it. Yeah, but I realized if
you find the right people, their audience can do so much.
You know, one of my friends who has a mascara brand,
gave the mascara to Abby Chatfield. Abby Chatfield posted about
it on her stories, like one story, and this girl
sold like four hundred mascaras. You've got to pick the

(45:49):
right people with the right influence. But I think that's
working really well. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
So influencer marketing is always a topic that gets so
many questions, and I think there is a bit and
you mentioned this in the book, that there is a
beer bit of a negative connotation kind of starting to
come out that influencer marketing is dead. But I think
it's it's just evolved. It's a little bit different to
how it used to be. But do you think it's
still really powerful? And I don't think it in.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
That what you like, you can't just hold up a product. Yeah,
but I do think that if you collaborate with them
and they like are really invested in it. So like,
look what happened with for example, Booth Rachel Wild and
they are with Indie Clinton is Indie Clinton, and so
because she's got such a strong following and she is

(46:31):
invested in the brand, like you can just see that
her audience is super invested in the brand too, and
it's making booth They sold twenty thousand units in two
weeks now, so you know what I mean? Like, I
think influencer marketing done right by picking the right influence
that was not influence that person who has influence, and
actually collaborating with them on the product itself. I like

(46:52):
it for a limited edition piece because I think you
get the word out there, but you don't it's like
it doesn't have to be an ongoing thing. Yeah. Yeah,
what about for B to B.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
I had a couple of questions because you do have
a unique challenge with Hero being you're selling to businesses
more than you're selling to a direct consumer. Do you
still find influencer marketing useful?

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Well? Yeah, I mean I don't use it as much anymore.
I think that B to B is less about influencer
marketing and it's more about can you look interesting in
a boring space. That's how I find B to B
marketing needs to move down. I think I had a
question when I was speaking on stage about a month ago,
and they were like, I'm trying to get these new,

(47:34):
big corporate clients. How do I like, I don't want
to create content that looks silly or fun because they're
not going to take me seriously. I said, that's your
first mistake, because you're not speaking to a business as
a whole. You're speaking to the marketing manager, who could
be gen Z. You could be speaking to, you know,
the e com person, the warehouse person. They're all people

(47:54):
at the end of the day, and they all want
to be entertained. They all want to do like they
all want to feel connected to something. And so for
me with Hero, the way that we stand out more
than anything else is that when we get a big
brand on board, I'll make a bunch of silly videos
around it, like absolutely ridiculous. And like when we got Disney,
you know, like we dressed as Disney princesses and we

(48:16):
were like, you know, printing the orders and stuff like that,
and then other brands are like, oh my god, they've
got Disney, but no one is like, oh my god,
they look so silly. They're meant to be professional. You know,
we announce it in a way that's interesting because if
I just said, oh, we got Disney as a client,
I'd get three likes for that. I don't want three likes.
I want eight hundred likes.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
You know.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
That's the difference. So if you're in B to B,
be more interesting than what you think you need to
be and don't be afraid to have the B two
C approach when you're targeting B to B clients.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
And then if you're B two C and in eCOM,
do you think that that need to be across Influencer
marketing is still there.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
It's still really powerful, only if you can collaborate properly
with the right influencer. It has to be the right one,
and there's not many. There's really not many people. It's
so surprising, but there are really not that many people
who have influence in a certain category. If you're going
to get a generalized influencer who's known for fashion and
sport and travel and this and that, and then on
one hundred things, it's going to be really hard. But

(49:13):
if say, for example, someone is constantly traveling and they're
just known for it, they've got five kids, they travel
all the time, and they have all the hacks, and
you're a parent brand, that influencer is going to do
so well for you co create a parenting backpack to
go traveling with them and like go all out because
I reckon that would work.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
It's actually so funny you said parent backpack because one
of the brands that submitted a question for you was
how to build customer trust when you're a new brand.
And this is a new parent backpack who I've actually
done a partnership with recently because we are traveling constantly
as new parents. But the price point is quite high
because it is such a high performance product, is waterproof,
it's got recyclable materials, it's got fifty five million pockets,

(49:52):
it addresses all of the difficulties with bottomless pit like
big storage. It has a side opening access. But it's new.
So how do you build customer loyalty and trust when
you're brand new and they are parting with quite a
lot of money per unit?

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Yeah, so I think you need to think about it.
If you are the customer, what do you look for first?
Because a lot of new parents, when you've got more
than one kid, you don't give a shit about the bag,
brack anyone you're like, just you're targeting. They are specifically
targeting new parents because new parents spend more on their
first kid. And so I think the first thing to

(50:27):
do is like, go, okay, okay. The question is influencer
marketing with this? I don't know, So I don't know how,
Like obviously you would work, but it's there's not many
people who are going to work for them. I think
like if you put your name to it, if you
said this was designed by you based on your needs,
I reckon it would do even better. Like I loved
the co collaboration of a product itself and not just

(50:49):
the posting about it, because the posting about it sometimes
it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Right when people realize that
you're posting about it because it's Brandon, it may it
might not work, But I like that co collaboration and
stuff for them. How do you get trust? You need
to have a shit ton of reviews. So the first
thing you need to do is go and incentivize like
five thousand people to leave you a review on this thing,
and so that means you might need to send free

(51:11):
products to people. Might mean that you stand on the
street at Bondi Beach and say like, hey, can you
in front of me review this backpack and tell me
what you like about it? Take that what they say
and put it as a review on your website or
on social media. You can take a clip of that
and put that anywhere you want. I think that customer
trust will only come from other customers who've tried it
and love it. And then if they type into whatever
the brand is called, if they type that into TikTok,

(51:33):
or they type in baby backpack into TikTok, and they
can see that the first four videos are of people
talking about that brand, that's customer trust. I honestly think
it's just comes down to how many times you see
it from different people, and it cannot come from the
brand itself. So like the reviews, the tags, the mentions,
are they getting enough of that? And if not, can
they kind of manufacture that a little bit?

Speaker 2 (51:54):
What about that search in TikTok makes me think of
a video you did recently on what you called an
unethical strategy for witch Hazel.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
It's for so many brands. All good, yeah, tell us
about this, okay. So what I noticed was like, there's
this trend on TikTok where someone is just like lying
in bed and they just looking at the camera, and
the text on screen is tell me the most unethical
or like unhinged way you've done this, or what product
made you lose a lot of weight or give you
the best skin of your life. And then in the
comment section there's like forty thousand comments right of all

(52:25):
these videos, and you'll start to notice like one brand
keep coming up, and so other people will just be
commenting other stuff. But then all of a sudden, like
for this one particular video, it was like witch Hazel.
And then someone's like I just tried witch Hazel, And
someone was like, does a witch has actually work?

Speaker 3 (52:40):
A da da?

Speaker 1 (52:41):
And I just saw that, and I thought, is this
Witch Hazel getting bots and just buying the comments section
so that people buy it? Because even I was like
I want to buy witch Hazel. I don't know what
it does. The number of times I've seen Sarah Vey
or however you pronounce it coming up in the comments.
There the Blue comment and then people talking about them.
I'm like, have they bought class? Yes? Have they? Is

(53:04):
that what it is? Of course? I think so, because
how can it be? How can it be? That's like
thousands and thousands saying the same thing if it was organic.
There are so many products in this world that people
would recommend. Why are those ones constantly coming up? It's
what happened with the Amber Heard and Johnny deppcase you know,
they manufactured the bots to make you think a certain way.

(53:25):
Same thing with Blake Lively and that other guy like it.
They manufacture the bots to make you go a certain way.
This has been happening for years and years, but I
think brands are now doing it so that even if
like they don't are not mentioned in the video itself,
no one's talking about that, but in the comment section,
which is where everyone runs to anyway, and their brands
are there. Like, I mean, it's pretty brilliant. It is

(53:46):
really ethical, and it is because obviously it's an ad
or like they bought that undisclosed form of while there's
no kind of like law stuff around.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Are you constantly looking at stuff like that and thinking
how can I?

Speaker 1 (54:01):
Well, I don't do it for myself, but I like
recognizing it and telling everyone else about it. Yeah. Interesting.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Is there anything that you see businesses constantly doing? Like, so,
on the one hand, you're always highlighting businesses that are
doing really amazing marketing campaigns. Is there anything that you
see constantly that people are doing wrong?

Speaker 1 (54:16):
You spend so much time on a piece of content
to get five likes, don't do that piece of content,
like there's no point, just pivot. You gotta like ultimately,
what you want out of everything that you do is
you're going to get the maximum juice from that squeeze.
And so if you are like doing this so like say,
for example, I've got your what would you call it,
not a notebook but a flipbook, a flipbook, Like I've

(54:37):
got your flipbook here and stuff. And if you just
were like you've took a photo of it and like,
or you've got a model to hold it up and
you did a photo shoot around it or whatever, that's
never going to do well July Suitcase like they do
okay with their professional shoots, I guarantee you, and I've
seen it when the founders get on there and they're interviewed.
Of course, the reach is much higher. All that stuff

(54:58):
is like for me, it's like the raw ugly stuff
was always going to work. If you want your engagement
ugly stuff, the raw ugly stuff, if you want. No
one wants the pretty stuff, No one different shit about it. Yeah,
So the stuff that I think I still see happening
even though everyone's talked about this like forever and ever. Like,
if you're still doing all of your really pretty stuff

(55:19):
and you spend so much time on good content and
you're getting five likes for it, you're wasting your time
and you're wasting your money, and you're wasting everyone else's time.
So like you need to start going, Okay, well that's
not working. What can I do that's better? And you
need to look at other people who are getting really
high engagement, and then you need to see what they're

(55:39):
doing and copy and not copy like word for word,
I mean copy like take their idea, look at their hook,
look at the time of their video, look at the
like if it's a twelve second long video, you do
a twelve second video. You do what they did in
your own way and put your own spin on it.
Like I want people to think, if I'm going to
run an ad and I'm like, it's not performing, well,
you're not going to keep that changing, change the changed,

(56:00):
like the creative around it. Maybe it's like you're spending
too little, maybe you're spending too much. But everything that
you do as a small business, it needs to generate
more than the effort you're putting in. Yes, and that's
really hard to know how to do that. But people
aren't willing to test things enough in order to get
the best results. They just do the same thing over
and over because they're uncomfortable with like trying something new.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
I love your emphasis on test and learn, test and learn,
and always be like, yeah, if it's not working, change it,
try it again, try something else again. Are you ever
running betads? Like are you running one one way and
one the other and seeing which is doing better?

Speaker 1 (56:33):
Yeah? So the way that the ad campaign works is
that you set up the campaign, then you choose an audience,
which now they're not allowing you to do anymore. But
in one campaign you can have multiple ads, so you
can have like, say, for example, if it's a coffee cup,
you can have an image of a coffee cup. Then
you can have a video of Sarah drinking from the
coffee cup, and then you can have perhaps like you
passing it to someone, then you can have a carousel

(56:53):
of the coffee cup. So it's the same thing but
in different formats, and meta will essentially choose where the
budget goes, so obviously if you're testing it, and then
it'll automatically put more money towards what's working for the
better one.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, and for anyone who does feel like this whole
world of ads, I mean one of the biggest things
that I get from your content all the time is
you need to be investing in ads like that is
you just need to in business?

Speaker 1 (57:16):
I think.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
So it is such an overwhelming place. Is it recommended
to do it yourself and learn more and try and
learn how to do it? Do you get an agency?
Like what is your kind?

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Don't get an agency? That's silly, really, no, that's silly.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
I think people feel so disempowered about how.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Why would you Why would you get an agency if
you don't even know how to do it yourself. So
you can get an agency as you scale and have
no more time to do it yourself because you understand
what to ask for and look for when they're doing
the war, I love it. You're passing on work that
you don't know how to do. How do you know
if they're going to do a good job. Most of
the time they won't anyway, So you're not going to
give two thousand dollars a month to something and then

(57:54):
on top of the ad spend as well. That's ridiculous.
Put that cash. Keep the cash. Learn it yourself over
one day. I guarantee you if you learn. If you
go to YouTube and type in like meta ads for
beginners like start from scratch, take a day, set it
up forever, you will. What do they say about the
fishermen fish thing? You know, you catch your fish or

(58:15):
whatever you learn whatever that thing, learn how to fish.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
There's actually another quote that I really loved from this
book from Gudarat in India, which was that it takes
a thousand hours to be an expert in something. Yeah,
which one thousand hours is a lot of hours, but
it's like you can actually master a lot of different things.
Actually a five days days yeah, okay, So but like
the point is we often spend two days and then
we're like I can do it, and it's like, well
you gave it two days, Like give it a give

(58:42):
it more tott longer, You're not going to learn how
to fly violin and to.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Always say like, if you want to go viral, create
fifty videos today and one of them will go viral.
Like I believe that you create fifty videos and post
fifty videos today and I guarantee you one of them
will go viral.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
And it was interesting you also said it took you
like ten years or something before your first video got
like two hundred thousand views, like you've been creating content
for so long before like the first one you got
not the secret source, but you kind of you know,
you do actually have to try for quite a long
time before you work out your sisters.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
And actually have a question for you. Do you care
about how your content performs ndred percent? Do you look
at it and like all the to worried about it?

Speaker 2 (59:19):
And so I love that you asked me this question
because a couple of weeks ago I had a massive
spiral about like I feel like, because there's no transparency
around the algorithms on any of the platforms, that there
are times where you have really high engagement and also
it could correspond with your content being really good. But
then there's times where the content is similar level quality

(59:40):
and your habits haven't changed, and it's just flat. There's
just times where I also think it's affected by what
brands are running ads on your accounts as well, But
who knows. I mean, we're all just guessing. If I'm
in a down spiral one hundred percent. I'm like, I'm irrelevant.
That relevance game that I asked you about in the beginning,
I'm like, it's and what is my plan being?

Speaker 1 (59:59):
I don't know what do I reckon? Sometimes we feel
like our value is just wholly related to how many
likes you get? Is my God, tell people all the
time you're worthy? Is not your engagement on Instagram?

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
And then I'm literally having a breakdown about how like, yeah,
my reel didn't get the same views as the last one.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
I am constantly looking at my analytics and it's so bad,
isn't it. Social media works in so many complicated ways,
not just when you're looking at someone and you're like, oh,
she's so pretty and I'm not. And then also when
you post something and it doesn't do as well. Yeah mood,
my mood, Yeah I'm yeah, I'll say to big I'm
feeling really sad and he's like why. I'm like, cause, my.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
God, nix, I put it down and he can tell
because I'll rewatch it over and over to like overthink it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
And he's like, I can hear the audio you're slon
going like, I send it, send it to VIC so
that it's got engagement. And then I'm like, you're saying
it recently. I was like, going on this post it
was for a break. Pump is like, what can I
even say? You didn't know you. I send it to

(01:01:05):
vic secret account, so I get a secret lie. Oh
my god.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
So when my friends are like this one isn't doing well,
I go on from the CZA account, I'm like, gal,
I gotcha.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Send it to my safe I watch it twelve times
to make sure it goes. We should have done a
whole episode on this.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
I feel like, generally it's the side that logically my
brain knows my worth is not measured by Yes, it's
not a popularity contest, blah blah blah. I'm like, it
is literally a popularity context is the Internet is a
popularity contest.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
A game, and you've got to win, and that's how
it feels.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
And it is actually based on the input you give
it that is based on what you thought was good,
and then it doesn't. When it flops, it's like, I'm shit,
it's so true. So so do you unravel your identity
from this, especially now that like my plan B what

(01:01:57):
I had hedge. I had a product, business and a
personal profile. We sold the business, I had a baby.
I don't have another business. So all of my eggs
are in the content basket at the moment, and it
does well.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
It's not though you do public speaking that you get
paid for. You're get em seeing like that's your money maker.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
But I am the product in all of those buckets,
if that makes sense. So I'm less hedged than when
I had stood two categories of project and I feel
like that does make it very hard for someone who's
initial fora into the professional world was that my brain
was and the output of my work was what validated me.

(01:02:35):
Now it is literally who I am as a person
and the content that I'm putting out, which I love doing,
and I feel like the stupid funny reels that I
get so much joy from that aren't sponsored, that don't
promote anything except laughter. Has been my strategy for enjoying
the platform and taking it less seriously because I was

(01:02:56):
just like, oh my god, and like way too consumed
by it all the time. Still, it's just like I
will posts sometimes because I'm like, of course, shit, I
don't want anyone to see that, and no one will
see it because it was shit. So it was because
I took it down because I left it there.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
I just like my advice to everyone is always just like,
leave it, no, babe, I'll tell you why. But i'll
tell you why no, not about that. It's because by
you posting, you're already ahead of like the ninety nine
percent of people who delete. Yeah, and also, I'm so
scared if you can just leave it there and realize
that no one's going to your profile and looking at
like the stuff. They're just seeing it for what it

(01:03:32):
is and moving on with their day. Yeah, they're not
looking at like the last six posts. Let me come
for that as I am.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Yeah, it's crazy. It's really bad, and I hope this
normalizes it for everyone listening, because I think everyone does it.
Oh yeah, I don't do enough. I don't like it
when people are like I don't care about my LIGs.
I'm like, yes, you do. I know, I think everyone
does because it's a form of validation one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
And I feel like sometimes I am liberated from it,
Like sometimes I'm not as worried about it when I,
for example, on TikTok if I'm doing I care less
about TikTok than Instagram because it's not my.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Book Instagram, it's your community.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Yeah, And so I feel like a little bit more
liberated from it there. And if that's something doesn't go well,
I'm like, well, I know you guys don't really know
me anyway, so like whatever. But when it goes well,
I am like, ah, I'm so cool right now, I
went if something goes viral, I'm in the best mood.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
But it is.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
It is funny how much it does, And especially since
I've had Teddy. Now I'm like, I need to care
less about this because my real world life is amazing
and I can't let this affect my mood. Even though
it is like where I leave I live on the internet.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
It's my career. Like it's hard, I know, and that's
the hardest part for so many people. You start a
business and then I'm like, create content, run ads, like
they all have to perform and that's part of the
success of your brand. Yeah, that's really hard.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Yeah, but it's also there are also so many good
parts of it as well. It's just like you've got
to choose, Like we talked about it at the very beginning,
like full circle, what your definition of success and fulfillment
and joy is, Like know your risk areas where you
can get out of control, and put in boundaries to
like protect you from that. Know the things that make
you feel good and that feel and how to avoid

(01:05:12):
the things that don't or minimize those things.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
And sometimes it is just like put the phone away,
you're spiraling, Like put it away, yeah, and play pickaball
and love Pickaball in your spare time. That's literally like
my last is it because it's like what do you
do for joy? What do you do for you? Like
that's you have to play. Discovered it in December and

(01:05:37):
it's June, so I've been playing it for seven months.
But it is the best thing that's ever happened to
me other than that kid.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
Sorry and my husband, Oh my god, we did never
get into the juggle hol shit.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
I have had so many questions to ask you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
This is my problem when I get really excited about
a particular person. I actually do worse interviews, but.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
I gcause I'm more contributed to this because I'm like,
what about you, Like, let's talk about us?

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
So interesting, But it means, like I think, I struggle
when i've read someone's book as well, because then I
know too many dot points. Yeah, like I want to
cover everything, but then sometimes I'm like, just stay on.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
But yeah, I can't think is a good way to
kind of bring it all together because it's like the
things that I'm choosing to do in my life. I'm like,
the things that I'm so excited about. One is the
kids and the families. Let's start there number one. Okay,
love the three kids, and I love that they're girls
and that they're older and the eldest like packs the lunches.
For I love to see that I'm raising good people.

(01:06:35):
I actually don't care about I care about their schooling,
but I don't care so much about their academics because
I was I don't know if it was the same
with you, but I was brought up just academics, academics, academics.
For me, I'm just trying to raise them to really
nice and good individuals who can talk to anybody and
can see me on stage. And now my eldest who's
very shy, all she wants to do is like public

(01:06:56):
speaking and do drama. But she's never been like that.
And I think I helped it that and I can
see development as a parent. It's the coolest thing in
the entire world to see what you've taught them they're
displaying in their acts. And I'm like, that's amazing. Like
it's anyway, so pride and joy and enjoy. Let's leave
that there. Pickootball is another thing that I found joy in,

(01:07:20):
simply because I've never played sport in my life. I've
never been a sporty person because Indian friends are like, no,
just immediately just watch you watch cricket or you like
do tutoring. There's no like then you don't play sport.
And so when I found it, I realized that not
many people played it, and I found a thing that
I could enjoy. And everyone is really good attendnis and

(01:07:42):
really good at basketball and soccer and whatever. I'm not,
but I found something that I really enjoy. And my
husband loves sports. We played together and I got my
friends into it. We play every Sunday, and it just
feels good to do the thing that I love and
I hate going to the gym because I don't understand it.
So if I can get fit in a way that
I just genuine LUs, then I am going to get fit.

(01:08:03):
And then I've got my businesses and I choose to
do that, and I as much of the bad stuff
that I'm telling you about, like there is no place
I'd rather be than in business failure or not. Like
I would start again and I would do it again,
and I would do it again and do it again.
And then also speaking on stage and creating content is
like I just know that that is the thing I
want to do for the rest of my life. So

(01:08:24):
there's like not so many things, but the things I'm
choosing to do is like I just you really love it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Oh, I love that. That's the essence of CZA. It's
finding what your unique combination of YA is. And for
some people that's one job and one personal life. Yeah,
some people that's a blend of all of it. For
some people that's four things, for some it's seven things.
And I think above all it's like giving yourself permission
to work out what it is and then do it.

(01:08:51):
And if you do try something and it's not for you,
it's okay to like change your mind.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
Change yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Yeah, Oh my gosh, oh, I wish I had so
much more time with you. I have so many more questions.
But thank you so much, Anita for like the lovely conversation.
People don't usually ask me questions back, and I've had
a lot of reflection time in this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
So ye, I feel like you have to. It's been great.
I really enjoyed it. Thank you for having me well.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
I mean, that was not just a very entertaining yapp
but basically a free one on one business coaching session
for you all.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
Anita is such.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
A powerhouse and if you enjoyed or learned anything from this,
please do share the episode, tagging at to sell anything
online to thank her for her time and wisdom. I'll
of course include links to all Anita's pages, books, and
other links in the show notes and highly recommend that
you go and have a look and give her a
follow Coming up, we have the very hotly awaited Azio

(01:09:46):
episode with a real life spy that I've been editing
away in the background and cannot wait to share with
you all. In the meantime, I hope you're having an
amazing week and are seizing your yay. Potent father mment
s Patman from Nan humanly remaining

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