February 12, 2025 • 59 mins
It’s not the first time we’ve touched on this week’s topic or guest on the show, but you’ll all remember how absolutely CAPTIVATED I was by the Thai cave rescue when I first read Against All Odds, so I am SO excited to be able to revisit it again. Our conversation with Dr Richard Harris a few years ago is still one of our most popular episodes ever, so I’ve been hoping to get his friend, diving partner, co-author and co-Australian of the Year on the show for a while and I'm thrilled to have Craig Challen here today.
Just as Harry was, Craig is wildly humble about his pivotal role in one of the most incredible stories in recent human history. It's as mind blowing as ever hearing the details of how the unique combination of his passion and profession was just what the world needed to pull off the impossible - I don’t think you can ever hear this story enough times or be any less inspired by its details!
As always, while many of us met Craig through the media during the time, I also loved going through the journey it took to get him there from country WA through a career as a vet before finding his love for technical cave diving. As you’ll hear, he truly epitomises many themes we love to explore on Seize the Yay with such an interesting perspective on what he considers to be a necessary divide between work and hobbies. I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I've never heard of somebody on their death bed saying
I wish I'd spent more time at my desk. So
this day, as I sit here now, I still really
can't believe that we got away with it, to have
been in charge of a little living, breathing human and
trying to keep them alive. And then you're adding the
aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well,
(00:23):
and that's mad stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the Seas the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
makes the heart seeing we work, then we rest, but
rarely we play, and often don't realize there's more than
one way. So this is a platform to hear and
explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,
the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
(00:47):
will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
fuentrepreneur who's walked the suits and heels to co found
matcha Maiden and matcha Milk. CZA is a series of
conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the
self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. It's
(01:12):
not the first time we've touched on this week's topic
or guest on the show, but you'll all remember how
absolutely captivated I was and still am by the Tai
cave rescue since I read the book Against ol Odds
by two of the incredible cave rescue divers that details
just how much more impossible the mission actually was than
I understood it through the media at the time, and
I've been yapping about it to anyone who listened. I
(01:34):
think is one of the most incredible stories to come
out of humanity and have really been looking for an
excuse to revisit it again on the show. Our conversation
with doctor Richard Harris a few years ago is still
one of our most popular episodes ever, and I've been
hoping for a long time to get his diving partner, friend,
co author and co Australian of the Year on the
show for a while, and I'm so thrilled to finally
(01:57):
have Craig Chalon here on the show today. Just as
Harry was, Craig is wildly humble about his pivotal role
in one of the most incredible stories in recent human history.
It's as mind blowing as every hearing the details of
how the unique combination of his passion for technical cave
diving and his profession as a vet was just what
(02:18):
the world needed to pull off the impossible. I don't
think you can ever hear this story enough times or
be any less inspired by its details. I mean, I've
read so exhaustively about the facts, and they blow my
mind every time. Coffee colored water, five hour dives, like,
oh my gosh, the fact that you are literally diving
through space is so narrow that your shoulders and back
at touching that, Oh, oh my gosh. I'll let you
(02:40):
guys listen and enjoy as always. Well, many of us
have met Craig through the media, you know, during this time,
we kind of walked into a chapter of his life
where it seems like he's the hero of humanity.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I also loved.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Going through the journey that it took him to get there,
from country wa through his career as a vet before
finally finding his love for technical cave diving. As you'll hear,
Craig epitomizes many of the themes we love to explore
and seize the a with such an interesting perspective on
what he thinks is a necessary divide between your work
and your hobbies, and the idea that you don't necessarily
need to love your job. You can find your AA elsewhere.
(03:13):
I found this one so fascinating and I hope you
guys enjoy as much as I did.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Craig Challon, Welcome to Seize the A.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I'm so excited to have you here today and so
grateful for your time because we get to talk about
one of humanity's greatest stories and I think one of
my favorite topics ever.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
No points for guessing what that is, but it is
a pretty good story.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I was actually listening to you on another show and
the interviewer said, people will always remember where they were
when man landed on the moon or JFK was assassinated.
And I think a lot of Australians remember where they
were when they heard about the Tie Cave rescue. But
I do think many of us didn't fully understand just
how extraordinary the odds were at the time. The news
(03:56):
brushed over so many of the details. Hence the name
of You or Incredible Book Against All Odds co authored
with doctor Richard Harris, who we have had the pleasure
of also having on the show. It wasn't until I
read your book that I fully grasped just how impossibly
unlikely a successful rescue was and became totally obsessed with
the details. So I'm really excited to revisit those today
(04:18):
and the crazy intersection of your profession with your passion,
as we did with Harry. But first I love to
trace back through all the chapters that came before this one,
the one that people meet you in now Australian of
the Year. You have an Order of Australia Medal, lots
of letters at the end of your name. You're a
global hero. So can you take us back to the beginning?
(04:39):
Who you started as in Thornleigh, Perth. What were you
like growing up?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Well? I think on reflection, I probably was born at
the best time and place in the entirety of human history, really,
Queen's sixty five in Australia, most particularly Western Australia. It's
hard to imagine how it could get much better than that, really,
So I guess I had a pretty ordinary, really childhood
(05:04):
that was great, you know, I had a fantastic family environment.
There were four kids in the family. I was the oldest.
Great deal of encouragement from my parents to seek opportunities
and to project the idea that there was so much
out there to do. Lived in the city for the
first part of my childhood, but in the latter part
(05:25):
moved out to the country, and that was really the
most fantastic thing.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I mean, it sounds absolutely idyllic. Western Australia is one
of the most beautiful parts of the world, and a
country upbringing is so grounding. But I don't necessarily think
it foreshadows that you will grow up and become a
global hero and be welcomed with open arms by the
King of Thailand and treated by royalty like royalty. It's
(05:51):
not necessarily what you would expect from your pathway.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Let alone the sort of unique combination of technical cave
diving and veterinaries and that led you there. So what
did you actually think you would be when you grow up?
Did you have any idea? Do you dreamk this up?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I don't know that I over did. It's as funny
how everybody always wants you to have had a grand
plan fear life, and life is not actually like that.
Most of us are just doing what seems like the
next logical thing. People respond to incentives and respond to
their environment. I was just an ordinary kid, later on,
(06:28):
an ordinary person doing my job, getting an education, and
admittedly a hobby of cave diving is a little bit unusual.
Most people have never really heard of it before the
Ika rescue. But it was just a thing that I
fell into. I'd always been interested in adventure sports, parachuting
(06:49):
and climbing, and had a brief and unspectacular career in
mountaineering and a few other things, as you do, and
none of them really cold that much. And I did
scuba diving as part of that course, but looking at
fish was a bit boring. Really can only take so
(07:09):
much of that. But like so many things in life,
just right place, right time. I met someone that was
a cave diving instructor. As soon as I heard about
cave diving, I thought that is the thing for me.
That was twenty seven years ago. Now that's been good.
I'm a fantastic opportunity. I've now been all around the
(07:30):
world and been to places that nobody has ever been before,
and seen things that have never had human eyes laid
on them. And of all the reasons that I really
like cave diving, that is the one that really gets me.
You never get tired of that.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I mean, that sounds incredible and you're kind of selling
it to me, but there are still lots of parts
that terrify me, which we will get to. But I mean,
this show is called CZZA because I think we do
in society spend so much time looking for things like
success and prestige, but then eventually often realize that all
we're really looking for is yay. It's fulfillment, happiness and contentment.
(08:07):
But it eludes people for so long because so few
of us wake up knowing what we want to be
and then become that and then you live happily ever after.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It just so rarely happens that way.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And when you don't know what you want to be,
I mean, how do you even find out what you're
passionate about? Like, how would you ever work out that
you loved technical cave diving without meeting someone? It just
seems so unlikely, and particularly as a VET, that doesn't
really seem to connect with what you were already doing.
But that's why I love your story so much. It's
not only to tell people about hobbies and pursuits they
(08:41):
might not have otherwise heard of in case it sparks
something for them. But also because you can have a
really unlikely combination of your passion and your profession. You
can be a veterinary surgeon who loves technical cave diving,
and that can lead you to be, you know, the
only person that can help globally in a particular situation.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
So, I mean, how did the combination come about for you?
Were you already a vet when you started cave diving?
How did it all work?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
No, I know it'd be pretty sad existence as a job. Really.
I think I'm a pretty firm believer in keep your
work you work, and your hobbies your hobbies, and in
my observation, people that try and mix the two it
doesn't really go well. And I can particularly it's because
I know a lot of diving instructors and cave diving instructors.
(09:32):
To my mind, when they start doing that, it just
spoils the whole thing because you never get to go
out and do your own stuff. You're too mixed up
in making a living, and it's not a particularly good
living anyway. So you're better off to do what you do,
and I do think that most people's lives there's probably
room enough to be good at two things. It's really hard.
(09:57):
You certainly have to have a great deal more talent
and gents that I've got to do more than that
and haven't really got the time. So hopefully your work
is one of them those of us that are afflicted
with having to work for a living, which is the
greater part of the population. And then there's something else
as well, and you know, whatever it is, your hobby
or your sport or an alternative occupation or whatever. I mean,
(10:21):
that's completely up to the individual, but it's really worthwhile
devoting yourself to developing skills that are not something that
you are then are living from, just for fun and
satisfaction and challenge.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
That's such a great SoundBite for this show, because I
think there is, you know, in the pursuit of your yay,
a lot of narrative around loving your job, and lots
of people do love their job, but it's discouraging for
those who maybe don't and find their passion in their
hobbies instead. And I think you're a wonderful example and
that's a great encouragement that they can be kept separate,
(10:58):
and sometimes there is a great benefit in doing so.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, well, you've been passionate in love with your work.
It's a nice sounding idea, and you're on you or
anybody else. I'm very happy for you. But there's a
lot of pretty mundane jobs out there and somebody has
to do them. The other thing is that, no matter
how much you like it, if you're facing up to
thirty or forty or more years of doing that, then
(11:24):
there's going to really come a time where you want
to move on to something else. So you should leave
an opening in your life. People say I don't know
what I'd do if I retired, and that just seems
crazy to me. I mean, what have you been going
to work for your whole life for. I've never heard
of somebody on their deathbed saying I wish I'd spent
(11:45):
more time at my desk.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Oh, one hundred percent. I say that all the time.
I've never met someone who thinks I wish I worked more.
I wish I did less of my hobbies. I wish
I made less time for my family and for joy
and for the things that really light you up. What
I think is the greatest shame is when people do
get to sort of that chapter in their lives, like retirement,
(12:07):
and they don't know what their passions are. It's not
that they haven't made time for them, but they've never
even explored who they are enough, because their profession does become.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
The entirety of their identity.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So speaking to Harry and now speaking to you is
wonderful because you have dedicated so much time resources, Like
it's expensive. You know, it's not just sort of a
hobby where you go and do fingerpainting whatever, Like, it's
a big undertaking to travel the world to go and
find these places, and there's a lot of training and equipment.
I love that that is all for something that isn't
your job. It's purely because you enjoy it. But before
(12:38):
we get to the story, I do want to touch
quickly on your time as a vet, which, even though
it wasn't necessarily.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Your passion, did you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
In my mind, it's one of the best jobs in
the world because you get to work with animals. But
I actually had a couple of followers mentioned and sort
of point out to me that it can be incredibly
tough and there are often some tough mental healths around
the profession.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
So what was your experience.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, so that's well, it's a complicated situation. We could
talk for a whole day on this. I should open
by saying I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so
I can only speak for what I've seen with my
own eyes. I don't know that it's really any worth
(13:23):
in the vetory profession than in society generally. There is
some information around the suicide rates are higher amongst vets,
but there's no real supporting evidence as to why that is.
And it seems the most obvious explanation to me is
that vets have got means to do it. Thats are
(13:47):
They're privileged members of a privileged society here in Australia.
I mean, you get to do work that is meaningful.
Can't really top looking after animals, can you. That's the
trump card of everything than helping people as well, with
professions full of nice people. So I don't really get it.
What I'm saying shouldn't be taken to display any lack
(14:10):
of sympathy for people that have had problems. But why
that should be and whether it is any worse in
the veteran profession, I don't really know, just trying to
give you an honest opinion, But I don't want to
look insensitive, because I'm not insensitive to people suffering.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
No, I really appreciate the honesty of that perspective and
think it's really positive that you haven't had that experience
of the industry and it has felt like a privilege.
Did you enjoy your time as a vet?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I did? It was great. I had a couple of
careers in one I started out doing clinical work, then
as I progressed, I built quite a large group of practices,
and so in the latter part of my career, for
probably the last ten years or so, I was really
more of a management VET than a clinic I mean,
(15:00):
as a clinician, I was okay. I was a passable VET.
I wasn't the most fantastic fit in the world. Probably
my talents lay more in managing other vets and providing
an environment for them to be the best that they could.
In my own humble opinion, I was fairly handy at
that I met with some success.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So I was lucky, well wonderful though that you did
have a great career, but that alongside in this parallel world,
you were able to excel extraordinarily at being a cave diver.
So let's turn to the passion because obviously this is
such a yay for you and has remained that, like
(15:37):
you said, many people don't even know what cave diving is,
just assuming and I think it was the same in
the case of a Thaire cave rescue, just assuming that
generally skilled qualified divers can do cave dives. But it's
quite a specific technical kind of diving. So when you
first discovered what it was, what was your first dive? Like,
(15:57):
where do you go from there? Is there a universe?
Like you can you know, you can do your scuba
diving certification. Is it like that where you find a
school and you get a teacher and you get a
certificate and then you can just go and do all
these places? They sound very hard to access. Is there
like a association that allocates you dives you're allowed to do?
Are they ranked?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Like?
Speaker 3 (16:17):
How does it all work when you first get into it?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, So when I began, there was a lot more informal, really,
and there was an association there would defined courses that
you did, and that that's how you start out. I mean,
it can be quite a good diver in open water,
but that does not qualify you anyway, and it's highly
dangerous to just decide to give it a go. There's
a few obvious things. The most important one, of course,
(16:41):
is that if something goes wrong, you can't just hit
the up button and go back to the surface because
there is no surface. There's rock above you, and so
you have to be able to deal with any contingency
not being able to see. If you get lost, you
need to get unlost again and find your way out.
Any equipment failures, you need to have a plan and
(17:01):
skills and the cool head to deal with them.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I do not have that.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
It's not for everyone. A lot of people temperamentally aren't
suited to it, but it certainly doesn't require any special powers.
All the people that do it just ordinary people. Really,
you need to go out and get the training. First
of all. There's a long history of people that have
come unstuck when they've just decided to give it a
(17:27):
bit of a go, So I cannot emphasize that enough.
But I was really lucky in that I met someone
who was an instructor but also became a bit of
a mentor to me. Took me on some expeditions way
before I was probably ready to be doing that. Within
(17:48):
a few months really of starting cave diving, I was
doing exploration and laying line, as we call it home,
putting guideline in a new cave. When you have that
sort of beginning, it's really to not have enthusiasm for
more of it.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I love watching people on the show go from talking
about just normal questions like their childhood and whatever to
the thing they really love.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
And the whole facial expression changes.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's like this light that you get when you talk
about something you're really passionate about it, particularly when you're
thinking about kind of the early days. I love watching
that transformation in your body language getting excited about it.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I'm so transparent, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's wonderful to see the joy that you get from this.
And what fascinates me so much is that coming back
to that kind of societal pressure, there's a lot of
not just pressure within people's careers about certain jobs that
are worth more than others, or that look more successful
than others. I think in the realm of hobbies and
passions and just general interests, there are things that you know,
(18:53):
people think are like normal and things that people think
aren't normal, and we spend a lot of time trying
to be like other people. I love that if you
like cave diving, you like or really you spend a
lot of effort going to do a pursuit that most
people would describe as their nightmare. And that's the best part. Like,
I think it's such a good reminder that everyone enjoys
(19:15):
different things. Something that would make someone else crumble into
a ball of fear is someone else's joy, Like it's
meant to be like that. We're all composed of different things.
Like you said, you don't think of yourself as particularly special,
but you must be wide in a way where you
can be cool, not just cool and calm in water
that you can't see through, in tunnels that like are
(19:35):
so claustrophobic to the average person, and not just.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Calm, but you enjoy that. I love that it's possible
for us to have.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Such a broad range of interest as humanity, and your
hobbies don't need to look like anyone else's. I think
it's the point I'm trying to make.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I love that, Well, it.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Would be a pretty boring old world if we were
all the same, wouldn't it. And what I don't get
is people that don't really try anything. Just get out
there and you don't know what it is that where
your destiny lies, then just do something. Get started. At
least you'll require some skills and knowledge and meet some
new people. If it's not really for you, then go
(20:10):
and do something else. Nobody's got a lifetime long enough
to try it, or so if someone sets out to
be World crochet Champion, you know, good luck to them. Really,
I admire that it just be the best that you
can be.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I love that I was a corporate lawyer beforehand, and
when I sort of was asked, you know, what would
you do instead? Like, you know, at times when i'd
express it, I wasn't particularly happy doing what I would do.
They'd be like, well, what are your passions and what
are your interest and I'd say, well, I don't know,
I don't know what my passions are. And I think
someone one day sat.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Me down and said, well, like what are you trying?
Like what are you signed up for? And I was like,
oh nothing, and so that well.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
How are you going to figure out what you're passionate
about if you're not going out and trying something like
you need to be actively exploring who you are to.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Figure out what you like and what you don't like.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And even finding out that you don't like something, I
think is a good amount of data to help you
get closer to the things that you do like. So
I love that advice to just go crochet, go and
do pottery, like figure out what it is.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, And you know, when I look back, I mean,
I'm not a person for regrets at all. I think
that regret is the most destructive human emotion. You just
do what you do at the time and make the
best decisions that you can based on the information that
you've got. But you know, if I was going to
regret one thing, it would be that when I was younger,
(21:31):
I just wasted so much time. You think that you've
got all the time in the world and that it'll
never catch up with you. And I'm fifty nine years
old now, so I'm not done yet. I've still had
a few more dives left in me. But I look
back and I think I could have achieved so much
more if I hadn't just pissed time up against the wall. Really,
(21:55):
you're not going to have big regretting having done too much.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Often said, I make decisions based on a future regret
management matrix more than anything else, and like, will future
me regret this even if current me is like, fuck no,
I don't want to do that. Like future me would
rather regret doing it than having not done it and
letting the time pass anyway, because like the clock is
ticking no matter what, so you might as well have
done the experience. It'd rather regret having done it. And
it is always such a random sequence of decisions like
(22:22):
that that lead you to the pivotal moments in your life.
Which brings me back to the story I've been so
excited to chat to you about, and I mean one
of the parts I love the most. There are so
many parts, but it is that unique intersection of your
passion for technical cave diving and your job as a vet.
(22:43):
Like in all the world, the entire world of people
and all the different combinations of skills that exist, with
so many different options of how to solve this problem
that seemed impossible, that it was you and Harry who
got brought in from somewhere like I don't even know
(23:03):
how they even found you. I love that it wasn't
necessarily your professions, but it was your hobbies that made
you the perfect people for this one thing that happened
during your lifetimes. Like that, just it blows my mind
that they know, they called navy seals, they called other governments,
they called blah blah, and it was these two lads
from Australia.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Doing something that they loved.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
It isn't even their job that could do the dive
technically enough like that, just it just blows my mind,
still blows my mind.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, I should hasten to say that there are other
people involved as well, it wasn't just me and Harry
really to how they found us is as you get
higher up the food chain and cave diving, it's a
pretty small group of people. Really. Everybody knows each other
or knows of each other at least, and so it
(23:54):
doesn't really take long to make a list of who
you would really want on a mission like that. Two
British guys were Extanton and John Balanthon were the first
people on side of the first recognized cave divers on site,
and Harry and I know them quite well, particularly Rick.
I've done a lot of diving with him over the years,
and yeah, I wouldn't have taken too much imagination.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
And yet it did take a lot of imagination to
come up with the solution that you did end up
coming up with. So I think what I find so
fascinating about this whole thing is that in the media,
it did appear this whole thing has happened. These boys
entered a cave, we don't know the cave got flooded out,
we don't know if they're alive, and it was all
(24:38):
you know for a couple of days. Kind of it
felt like a blip on the radar. Then suddenly they
were out. Like in our media, that's kind of how
it seemed. It was like big problem holding breath, people
have gone over, experts of debt with it.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
They're out.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
And then when I read the book, the subtleties of
everyone involved had moments of thinking it was over. It
was impossible, Like I don't think it was conveyed to
the lay person in Australia, how touch and go the
situation was, how impossible and unlike you said, like the
book is called against all odds, Like I just didn't
(25:12):
understand that at the time. So hearing the details has
been my favorite story.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Ever to hear.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
So can you talk us through You didn't even get
there till day thirteen. Elon Musk had already been and
gone talk us through the situation.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, so it's I mean, it didn't seem all that
different to us either. I developed slowly and we didn't
know what was going to happen. And I mean so
this day, as I sit here now, I still really
can't believe that we got away with it. Wow, it
was pretty radical stuff to be bringing these kids out
(25:46):
when it was first suggested that there would be a
cave diving rescue through two point two kilometers of a
fairly gnally dive. Really, for us doing it just by ourselves,
without taking patience out and rescuing someone, it still would
have been a pretty sporting afternoon out really. But to
(26:06):
have be in charge of a little living, breathing human
and trying to keep them alive, and then you're adding
the aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well,
I mean, that's just that's mad stuff. If somebody had
come up with this as a script and given it
to me to read, I would have thought, nah, mate,
(26:28):
it's too far fetched, going to tone it down a
little bit, but that's the way it was, and to
have gotten all thirteen of them out just still seems unbelievable.
We were one hundred percent prepared for casualties. It just
seemed fanciful for me me that we'd get them all out.
The only thing that really motivated us was that we knew,
(26:51):
we were convinced that if they stayed in the cave,
they were doomed. There was no chance of survival. It
was going to be months for the cave dried out
and the water stop flowing. So we had to give
it a go. And even if we just got one
out alive, that still would have been an improvement on
none of them surviving, so that was worth it. But
(27:12):
it's still weighs fairly heavily upon your shoulders at the time,
thinking that we might end up dragging them all out
of the cave in body bags would not have been
a really very cool scenario.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So again, I think it did seem like we called
in the experts. The experts did their thing. You brought
them out amazing, But I mean, I didn't even know
that before you guys had had the call up. Like first,
there was a big period of time where they hadn't
even found the boys. So, you know, so for everyone listening,
if you didn't know, the boys went in when the
cave was dry, so they were able to walk in,
(27:46):
and there was you know, obviously wasn't flooded at the
time they went in, and then it flooded and the
chambers sort of all filled up, So they were a
very very long way in from the entrance where they started,
and they obviously got stuck there and couldn't get out.
It took you know, a lot of days to even
figure out that where they were if they were alive,
and then there was a scram or just sort of
figure out how you would ever get them out. I
(28:09):
read or I think I heard you on a different
podcast saying that, I mean, you got the call with
two hours before.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
You had to get on the plane.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Had you been waiting for the call? Did you know
that they were thinking about because their initial plans weren't
to do a cave dive. Were they was there a
submarine plan?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
There were heaps of plans. It seemed like people from
all over the world were just popping their heads up
with bright ideas, and it was pretty easy to present
yourself as an expert in that environment at the time,
so there was all sorts of stuff going on, but
all those other plans just one by one they fell away,
(28:46):
were eliminated as implausible, are going to take too much time,
and it just more and more looked like cave diving.
But days were ticking by. Harry and I are still
sitting here in Australia, and even on the day before
we left, it looked like we weren't going to get
a guernsey and that we weren't really wanted. Up there
(29:10):
just seemed to be drifting, and it was pretty chaotic
up there as well, because nobody knew what to do.
The taie authorities were a bit lost about what the
best course of action was, and I can't really blame
them for that because there's not really any precedent for
this situation. Of all the things that the governance might
have thought of, this was not really on the list,
(29:33):
so I certainly can't hold that against them. But it
all just really came together over a few hours, and yeah,
you're quite right. We got the call to get yourself
to the airport, so it had to very hastily because
we were all packed up for another dive trip. So
I had to unpack, reconfigure, throw some stuff in a bag,
(29:53):
and just go. It was pretty frantic at the time.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Do you put your hand up? Like, because I think,
you know, normal channels of governments and militaries, you'd kind
of be looking at seals and all that kind of stuff.
But that having not been successful, how do you guys
put your hand up and use the channels? Or were
you just waiting for someone to suggest you, like, do.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
You know what I mean? How did the kind of
logistics work?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah? I know. We were totally volunteered. We were super cane.
We've been interested in cave rescue for quite a long time,
and the cave diving rescues that don't come around very often.
There's only three or depending on how you define it,
for cave diving rescues ever occurred, including this one in Wow.
(30:40):
And so I was prepared in my own mind to
go a whole lifetime without ever going getting to do one.
So when opportunity knocks, your best answer the door. Really Wow. Yeah,
we didn't have to be talked into it.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So you took all your own equipment. This was all
stuff you had for your own pursues. And you just
had to kind of neck it all on over there.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, somewhat. I took what we thought we would need.
As it turned out, we start, we use slightly different equipment,
so gathered a bit up when we're over there, but
essentially it was our stuff. Yeah, wow, and throw it in.
I'm pretty used to packing for trips by now after
(31:24):
twenty seven years, so that didn't take very long.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, although I imagine it's never been such a quite
high stakes environment. So can you talk us through the
actual nitty gritty of the dive itself? Because again, when
I heard that there were divers, I kind of just
thought you were going down and that your water is
clear in most cases, you know. I was like, oh,
you're swimming and look at the fishes, but you know
(31:48):
it was coffee colored water. You said two point two
k's in and obviously then you have to come back out.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
So someone had.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Gone all the way in, and are they laying like
a guy for like, how you know where you're going?
How tight were the kind of holes that you need
to get through? How long was it in and out?
Like for us two k's in and out? I don't
sort of know what that translates.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
To like, yeah, to talk us through the stats of
the dive.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
So I think the most pertinent thing for people to
realize is that we couldn't really see anything at all.
The water is filled with silt and mud, and occasionally
you just get a bit of a glimpse of some
clear water. There were a couple of side passages that
were bringing in clear water, but the main river channel
(32:33):
everything was done by feel, and so we always place
a guideline to follow in cave diving. That is the
number one absolute cast iron rule of cave diving. That
you have a continuous guideline from the surface, so you
can follow that and that's enough information to get you
(32:57):
in and get you out again. And so it just
start at the beginning. I mean, it was two point
two kilometers in, but that's not for what we do normally.
That's not that big a deal. I've been far further
than that. So the day before the rescue started, Harry
(33:17):
and I did a WRECKI dive in there just so
we could experience the cave for ourselves and see how
difficult was going to be, and also to suss the
kids out, see how they were going as well, and
just what sort of condition that they were in. And
it took us about two hours to get in there
the first time.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Two hours one way, that's one way to get in.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
We had a couple of hours with the kids there
and just chatting to them, telling them what was well.
We had a letter written in tie with us that
explained what was going to happen, and the course was
pretty much set for the next day by then, and
so that was read out to the kids. They are
just oh, yeah, right, you're going to have an anesthetic
(34:05):
and dive through the cave whatevers needed. And they were
really cool. These kids, they get ten out of ten
from me, no doubt. They were tough little customers. They
get a lot of credit. You know, with survival, A
big part of it and when you're going to survive
or not is just being equal to the task and
(34:26):
making the decision that you are going to survive. The
rest follows from that. And you hear these stories about
people just giving up and the end is inevitable in
that case, but I think those kids were pretty determined
that wasn't going to happen to them. That was the
trip in and when we're coming out, when had kids
(34:46):
with us. Our estimate, which turned out to be pretty accurate,
was that it was going to take three hours to
get out with them, given that they had to have
top ups of anesthetic on the way out, and just
you generally looked after.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
So, I mean, there's so many I mean, I already
know all this, but it just it still gets me
every time. It's just so so fascinating that, I mean,
the whole thing that the sedation idea, because so if
I remember correctly, it was ketamine, and in my brain,
this is such a you're not going to think this.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Is such an amateur jump to make intellectually.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
But my brain went, oh, that must have been a
vet because ketomene is a horse trank closer.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
What's that your idea?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
No, so it actually, I mean it is pretty pretty
widely used in human field medicine. It's okay, like if
you're in a car crash or have some sort of accident,
they need to do a field procedure on you straighten
out your leg or put your shoulder back in after
it's just like haded or something like that. There's a
fair chance you're going to get kedek in because it's
really safe and easy to administer in the field, so
(35:51):
it was perfect. But the actual idea came from the
sort of powa veterinary source, a friend of Harry's who's
a doctor, but he'd been doing some fieldwork on seals
in Antarctica and they were using ketamine to slow the
seals down a bit so they can take blood from them,
(36:13):
and that was the origin of the suggestion.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Oh my god, I'm in the much as I'd like.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
To take credit for it, but I can't really.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
I mean, then you had to administer it, so you
could definitely take credit for that.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
It would be easy. I know my way around a
sy engine needle by now.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Okay, Well, the fact that you and Harry do I
mean Harry being an an nethetist, but the other divers,
their intersection of skills was not necessarily inclusive of administering injections.
So was it them who was practicing in like bottles?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah? Yeah, So there were some when it was pointed
out to these guys that were going to be administering
the anesthetic underwater in a cave, there were some pretty
apprehensive faces around the table. Fair enough, but you know,
these are the world's best cave divers they can do
sort of people, especially since they weren't given much choice
in the matter, they eventually decided they were up for
(37:08):
it and decided to give it a go. So, yeah,
they had a quick lecture and then they all had
a practice because some of them had never given an
injection before at all, and so they all injected some
water into some plastic coat poddles and that was it.
They were good to go. Oh my gosh, seems like
(37:29):
a pretty big deal, but in principle, it's pretty simple.
You just put the drugs in, the patient goes to sleep,
where you go.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Was that to control the sort of panic and disorientation,
because obviously they'd never die like normal adults probably would
lose their call in that situation having never done it
before a little on a small child.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Was that where the idea came from.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Oh totally yeah. I mean, I imagine the situation that
these kids were in. They would have to be completely
trusting of the diver though were with they wouldn't be
able to see anything for it up to three hours.
It was going to be a pretty rough old journey
going out of this cave. It's not just like swimming
down the inside of the pipe of a pipe, there's
(38:13):
twists and turns and all sorts of projections and obstacles
which I certainly kept swimming into. And they were going
to take a bit of a beating. They were going
to get really cold. It was not going to be
a fun time for them. And for a lot of people,
breathing off scuba underwater is a quite disconcerting experience when
they first try it as well. There's a lot of
(38:35):
people that don't really take to it straight away. But
they weren't going to get any practice. They were just
going to be straight into it, and if any of
them did panic underwater, then there was pretty much all
over just threshing around uncontrollably under the water. There was
not much chance of survival from that. And they could
(38:55):
also take a diver out with them as well, because
the divers would have compelled to make the best efforts
to save these kids. So, as crazy as it seems,
we decided that maybe the anesthetic was the best way forward.
Oh my gosh, anesthetizing someone and then putting their head
(39:16):
underwater for three hours, that is it's not really cool.
It's not something that you do. So it's a little
bit dangerous. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
I mean, I think that's when you really appreciate how
dire the situation was otherwise, that that was still the
best option, even given how unusual that is. It's interesting
to me and I loved hearing that even now you
still are surprised that it all worked out, like that's
how unlikely it truly was.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Oh yeah, well, look, if we were in the same
situation now, I would still be very apprehensive about doing this,
and you've looked for any other way of achieving the
outcome if you could. But sometimes you've just got to
make a choice and get into it.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
So my biggest thing that I find really fascinating about
the human brain is how, especially now, we are so
unaccustomed to stillness or quiet or boredom. It's very like
instant gratuity. How can I be stimulated all the time,
and like a lot of I think attention issues coming
out of the fact that we all need to be
(40:21):
stimulated all the time. I imagine that you know, underwater and
without any visual stimulation for long periods of time, that
it's a scenario that most people don't get an equivalent
of during daily life. We don't have to sit with
our thoughts in complete quiet like that very often? What
do you think about when you're doing a dive, a
(40:42):
normal dive, and then what were you thinking about in
Thailand when you're on the way in on the way out?
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Like how do you steal the chaos for three hours?
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, so it's not really like that. Like when you're
doing the dive self, then it's got your attention. There's
always something to think about. Are where you're going, is
the equipment? Okay? Where are the other people that are
around you? If there are any around you? It's not
(41:15):
just boring empty time that does come. So that doesn't
really apply to Thailand. But some of the big deep
dives that we do, we do hours and hours. I've
done some dives we're doing up to sixteen hours of
decompression and they sitting waiting really, so you get to
(41:37):
get plenty of time to consider your place in the
universe and just think about things.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Can you evolution into music underwater or do you use
it literally just you and yourself.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I'm not really so much into that. Some people do that.
It has its little logistical problems, but they're not insurmountable.
That's not a real big thing for me. I don't know,
just getting the zone and plan the next start of
something like that. Bit of working out any problems in
(42:13):
your life, you get the opportunity to reflect on them. Wow,
just do what you've got to do. You've done the crime.
Just sit there and do the time.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
What about in Thailand? Were there any moments even during
the dive where, like, apart from the kids, were there
any moments where you were sort of like fearful or worried,
like for your own safety. I know there was a
Thai Navy seal diver who didn't make it. Was it
ever sort of dicey for you?
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah? No, there was not really, I mean for us.
This is not not, by a long shot, the narhlist
dive that we've ever done. So I was pretty confident,
I mean, happily in a cave, I am invincible and
cannot be killed anyway, so I have to worry too
much about that. It was all sort of okay from
(43:04):
that point of view, which is much. There was one
incident where on the first day of the rescue and
there was a problem with the compressor that had been
filling our cylinders and we had really bad air and
so a few of us were getting getting headaches and
getting sick and stuff like that that was not really good.
(43:26):
And this was on the dive into the cave to
rescue the boys on the first day, so we didn't
really need that very much. So when we had a chance,
we sort of marshaled all the cylinders we had and
tasted the air out of them as best we could,
and I managed to come up with some that weren't
going to kill us. But there were some harsh words
(43:47):
spoken at the end of that day about the quality
of the breathing gas that we were being given. But anyway,
that everything always turns out okay in the end, and
so did that. One. The concern that we had was
just for the kids that they weren't going to make
it through. I mean, at least we were in control
(44:07):
of our own destiny, and if something went wrong for us,
it was because we'd made a mistake, so we can
take responsibility for that. We do it every time we
go diving. But those kids, they just had to take
what was coming to them. So, you know, I don't know,
like you try and think, well, we were doing the
best that we could, and nobody can ask for any
(44:29):
more than that, but it still would have been pretty
upsetting if we'd started to lose these kids. I don't know,
never really came to find out about it.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Well you didn't have to, which is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I mean, I can't even imagine, like over it was
what three days, I think it dives in and out,
in and out and alternating between. Were there four of you,
five of you that were sort of alternating going in
and out?
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Six of us in the yeah, yep, I mean Harry
and I had stations. So Harry was in a chamber
nine with the boys and he was doing the inductions
of the anesthetic and sending them on their way, and
I was downstream a bit. So after they had their
first dive, which was about three hundred meters so maybe
(45:14):
twenty minutes or so, I can't remember exactly, and then
they'd come out, there was another dry chamber there, so
the boys all had to come out of the water.
It carried across this dry chamber, which was a few
hundred meters long, have all their gear taken across, put
them back in the water again, and send them on
their way. So that was my station. So that was. Yeah,
(45:37):
they were tough. Long days and the other four British
divers were actually diving them out, or other five British
divers on the last day, so you know, probably like emotionally,
the toughest part of it was at the end of
that first day when we were bringing four boys out
(45:58):
on the first day, so that all gone and we
just had to dive ourselves out following them. We gave
them a bit of a head start so we didn't
catch up to them and just headed out, and of
course we had no idea how things had gone. Harry
and I didn't know if we were going to arrive
back at dive Base and find four corpses there that
(46:22):
hadn't made it. No idea, so the pressure was off
us at that stage, but that was all I could
really think about, just a bit apprehensive about what the
result was going to be. I can clearly remember. I mean,
it's one of my outstanding memories is getting back to
dive Base on that first day and I just stuck
(46:45):
my head out of the water and I said, did
anyone survive? And the guys that were there said, yep,
all good, four out of four, no problems. And I'll
never really forget that moment, it was just like the
weight of the world had been lifted off my shoulders,
and you start to think, maybe this crazy plan can
actually work against all expectations.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
I mean, what an extraordinary an extraordinary thing for humanity,
Like it's just it stands out as one of these Yeah,
like everyone remembers where they were when they first heard this.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Story, like it's it's absolutely crazy.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
And I mean, you know I said to you when
I first emailed you, I just think you too a
legendary And I know you continue to refer to yourself
as just a normal person, but most normal people haven't
literally saved sort of the lives of thirteen other human
beings and all their extended families and everyone in their
lives who you've given you the gift of their future.
(47:41):
So just extraordinary blows my mind.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Well, it is a pretty good story. I'm going to
admit that.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
I mean, you should admit it. It's an amazing story.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
What has it been, I mean it's been what four
twenty eighteen six years?
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Six years? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yeah, how do you feel? How is your relationship to
diving now afterwards? Did it change after that? Did you
not dive for a little while, like how did How
did things feel afterwards?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Oh, I had a bit of catching up to do.
That that was a little trip, so it put us behigh.
I mean, that was that was pretty good. We had
no idea at the time that this was such a
huge story around the world because we're just there. It
was somewhat isolated, pretty busy.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Yeah, you were busy. You had enough to do.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
We weren't watching TV or anything like that. Had a
little bit of feedback from home, but that was about it,
but just didn't have any comprehension that this was occupying
so much attention. And it was really only once we
got back to Australia that it became clear to us
that we had got a bit of attention and some
(48:49):
notoriety I suppose. I mean, it was all all in
a good way. But when you're just an ordinary bloke
and then living your life and then all all of
a sudden you find yourself at the center of that,
having reporters show up at your front door and just
continual attention and requests for interviews and stuff like that,
(49:12):
just think, well, I didn't really see this one coming.
So the rest of you happened in July. We already
had a trip to Canada organized for September October, so
we disappeared on that for a month or so, and
we thought, well, by the time we come back, we
will be forgotten about and all the fussle of died down.
(49:34):
We can just get back on with normal life. But
it turned out that it was not quite that way,
and it's just been going on ever since. I mean,
even six years later, there's still a hunger for this story.
I mean, it's just a great story where everybody's a winner,
apart from Saman Gunan, who was the one Thai guy
(49:56):
that died diving in the cave. But apart from that,
it's just like a one hundred percent great story for everyone,
and everybody seems to have some angle. It doesn't matter
who you are, but if you're a kid or a parent,
or you're interested in rescue or emergency services, or there's
(50:18):
a medical aspect to it, or a diver or an adventurer,
everybody's got some point of connection with this story. And
you don't get that. I can't really think of another
example where everybody's got such a direct point of connection
to it. And it's just a fantastic outcome where really
(50:41):
victory is snatched from the jaws of defeat at the
last minute. So I guess it makes sense that people
are so okay on the story.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Absolutely, I just yeah, I love it. Like I said,
it's like my favorite story ever. And if anyone I
come across hasn't heard of it, I insist on telling
them the entire thing because I think it is.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
I mean, there are so many bad news stories that
you continually hear, and yet you want these ones to
win in people's attention because it's an amazing Yeah, it's
an amazing story to tell. It's so uplifting, and yeah,
everyone does have a point of connection what they don't
all have a point of connection with is I think
even if you aren't interested in cave diving or rescue
(51:21):
or Thailand or anything, it's still a story that everyone
can find or in. But even if you aren't interested
in cave diving, I also think that finding out about
the niche community that it is is still fascinating because
before we finish off the tie rescue, but just diving
in general, Like I would love to know what's the
longest you've ever dived and what's the coolest place you've
(51:42):
been what's the place that you want to go in
your lifetime that no one else has gone? And specifically
because I'm all my brain ticks over logistics of stuff.
How do you go to the bathroom when you're doing
a sixteen hour dive?
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Like?
Speaker 3 (51:55):
How do you do because you don't reservice?
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Right? Like?
Speaker 3 (51:57):
How do you like, you know, talk us through it.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
There's a lot of questions there as far as longest dives.
Depends which way you look on, So I'll give you
three different answers to that question. So the longest diving
time is just about just over seventeen hours. Longest dive
in distance is eleven.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Kilometers down or sideways or every.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
Waste, yeah, alongside distance from the entrance and deepest dive
two hundred and eighty four meters So that site. That's
a site in South Africa that Harry and I dived
earlier this year and it was until a few years
ago the deepest cave dive in the world. But there's
(52:45):
a couple of deeper dives that have been done.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
Yeah, wow, how do you eat? Do you get starving
over seventeen hours? And yeah, bathroom like what do you
do thirsty as well?
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yeah, well, if you're in fresh water, you can drink
the water, so that's not really a problem. But let's
see easier solution of all that. One don't even have
to take a drink with you. If you're in the
ocean or in salt water, then that's not the case
you but you can drink out of a drink bottle,
just like a squeezy bottle. That's no problem as far
as food goes. So sometimes we have habitats underwater, particularly
(53:20):
when it's really cold water, and so we just have
a little inverted bag basically that we'll fill up with air,
and you can climb up into that and sit there
and you can have a bit of a feed, so
your friends and support divers will bring you down something
to eat and drink in there. It's quite a pleasant
environment compared to actually being in the water. But at
(53:43):
other times, if you're doing all of the decompression in
the water, then you can still eat, particularly like something
like a chocolate bar or something like that. You just
have to make sure that you take small bites because
once you take a bite, you have to eat all
of that and swallow it before you can take another breath,
and you don't Oh yeah, that's the track for young players.
(54:07):
We all learn when we first start, but get used
to that. As far as going to the toilet, so
number one is not really any problem or particularly for
boys anyway. Just a bit of plumbing, a little raincoat
on the old fellow with a tube coming out at
the end and that's easily achieved. But yeah, number two
(54:31):
has just got to plan ahead and wow, time bit
of a bit of a low fiber diet for a
day or two events is advisable.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
Right, Okay, so you actually do have to like, yeah,
do your prayers like the reverse card loading that people
don't marathons and stuff.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
That's okay, We've been doing all this stuff for a
long time. We're aware of all the issues.
Speaker 3 (54:54):
And is there a dive that you have yet?
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Do you have like kind of a list of dives
in your lifetime that you want to conquer and is
there one that you're just like can't not have done
or is there one that you're planning to do?
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Well, it's not really like that because it's exploration is
really the name of the game. So the dives you
want to do are the ones that haven't been done yet. Ah,
So always looking really, but I've got a few projects
on the go, and so this year I've been to
China and there is so much to do up there
(55:29):
and it's virtually untouched. Really, there are lifetimes of exploration.
So I've hooked up with a few of the Chinese
divers up there and looking forward to going back there.
There's lots to do. Spain is another big place. I'm
involved in a project over there that's the longest cave
divers in furthest distance from the entrance. So I was
(55:54):
there with Jason Mallinson, another one of the divers from
the Cave Rescue, and going back there next year again
in August and September, so hopefully extend that one as well.
I mean, probably my career defining dive has been this
cave in New Zealand that we've been going to called
(56:14):
the Pierce Resurgence, and that's been going there for so
Harry first went there in two thousand and seven. I
came along a little bit later twenty ten, but I've
been on eight expeditions there now and keeps getting deeper
and going further and that's really cold water too, just
(56:35):
to make it even more unpleasant. So just organizing now
for another trip up there, going there in February and
getting ready to lay a bit more light.
Speaker 2 (56:47):
Amazing. Oh well, that's so exciting. I just yeah, I
can't even imagine. I mean, like, I hate being cold
and don't love being well like I love Yeah, I
just can't imagine it. But I love how much you
love doing it, and I hope that February's dive goes
really well. I'm so so grateful for your time. And
I know you've probably rehashed this story a million times,
but I don't think it will ever get old.
Speaker 3 (57:09):
It is just such a good one and spark so
much joy.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
Yeah. Well, there's still plenty more dives to do, so
if anybody listening is Keane, I really recommend it to you.
There's stuff out there. There's still so much exploration to do,
and just go out get yourself the training first, listen
to me on that one. Yeah, then get into it.
There's a lot of excitement to be had.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
Well, I really do hope that across these two episodes
there is an aspiring cave diver out there who might
not have otherwise done it, but who now that they
know that there is so there are so many things
that you can do and that you can make a
twenty seven year career out of it if you want
to and going and counting, and you can do it,
you know, all over the world. I hope that there
is at least one who's been listening who chooses to
(57:57):
continue pursuing it because.
Speaker 3 (57:58):
Of you, guys.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
I hope so too.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
Thank you so much, Craig. It's been an absolute pleasure.
For those who haven't read the book. I'll make sure
to include Aleek in the show notes because still one
of my favorite books ever. There's much more detail if
you've enjoyed the detail we're listening to that you've listened
to in this and thank you so much for joining it.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Was really enjoyed it. Thanks Sarah.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
Oh my goodness. I mean I've already read their book
against all odds many times. I've watched the documentaries, I've
watched the movies, but I'm never any less blown away.
Speaker 3 (58:26):
What an incredible feat.
Speaker 2 (58:27):
I wish I could have kept chatting for hours or
crawled into Craig's brain to understand more. It really makes
me so enthusiastic about humanity, and I hope you guys
found some inspiration too. If you enjoyed, please do share
the episode on socials or take a minute to leave
us a review. I always forget to ask. I mean,
in seven years, we've only amassed I think less than
a thousand, and that's because I'm so bad at asking.
(58:48):
But it really does mean so much to keep growing
the neighborhood, even now in what.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
Is our eighth year, which blows me away. It means
a lot to keep us going.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
So if you haven't subscribed or left a review, I'd
so appreciate you taking the time. And in the meantime,
I hope your February is off to a great start
and you're seizing your yay
I've never heard of somebody on their death bed saying
I wish I'd spent more time at my desk. So
this day, as I sit here now, I still really
can't believe that we got away with it, to have
been in charge of a little living, breathing human and
trying to keep them alive. And then you're adding the
aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well,
(00:23):
and that's mad stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to the Seas the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
makes the heart seeing we work, then we rest, but
rarely we play, and often don't realize there's more than
one way. So this is a platform to hear and
explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,
the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
(00:47):
will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
fuentrepreneur who's walked the suits and heels to co found
matcha Maiden and matcha Milk. CZA is a series of
conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the
self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. It's
(01:12):
not the first time we've touched on this week's topic
or guest on the show, but you'll all remember how
absolutely captivated I was and still am by the Tai
cave rescue since I read the book Against ol Odds
by two of the incredible cave rescue divers that details
just how much more impossible the mission actually was than
I understood it through the media at the time, and
I've been yapping about it to anyone who listened. I
(01:34):
think is one of the most incredible stories to come
out of humanity and have really been looking for an
excuse to revisit it again on the show. Our conversation
with doctor Richard Harris a few years ago is still
one of our most popular episodes ever, and I've been
hoping for a long time to get his diving partner, friend,
co author and co Australian of the Year on the
show for a while, and I'm so thrilled to finally
(01:57):
have Craig Chalon here on the show today. Just as
Harry was, Craig is wildly humble about his pivotal role
in one of the most incredible stories in recent human history.
It's as mind blowing as every hearing the details of
how the unique combination of his passion for technical cave
diving and his profession as a vet was just what
(02:18):
the world needed to pull off the impossible. I don't
think you can ever hear this story enough times or
be any less inspired by its details. I mean, I've
read so exhaustively about the facts, and they blow my
mind every time. Coffee colored water, five hour dives, like,
oh my gosh, the fact that you are literally diving
through space is so narrow that your shoulders and back
at touching that, Oh, oh my gosh. I'll let you
(02:40):
guys listen and enjoy as always. Well, many of us
have met Craig through the media, you know, during this time,
we kind of walked into a chapter of his life
where it seems like he's the hero of humanity.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I also loved.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Going through the journey that it took him to get there,
from country wa through his career as a vet before
finally finding his love for technical cave diving. As you'll hear,
Craig epitomizes many of the themes we love to explore
and seize the a with such an interesting perspective on
what he thinks is a necessary divide between your work
and your hobbies, and the idea that you don't necessarily
need to love your job. You can find your AA elsewhere.
(03:13):
I found this one so fascinating and I hope you
guys enjoy as much as I did.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Craig Challon, Welcome to Seize the A.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I'm so excited to have you here today and so
grateful for your time because we get to talk about
one of humanity's greatest stories and I think one of
my favorite topics ever.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
No points for guessing what that is, but it is
a pretty good story.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I was actually listening to you on another show and
the interviewer said, people will always remember where they were
when man landed on the moon or JFK was assassinated.
And I think a lot of Australians remember where they
were when they heard about the Tie Cave rescue. But
I do think many of us didn't fully understand just
how extraordinary the odds were at the time. The news
(03:56):
brushed over so many of the details. Hence the name
of You or Incredible Book Against All Odds co authored
with doctor Richard Harris, who we have had the pleasure
of also having on the show. It wasn't until I
read your book that I fully grasped just how impossibly
unlikely a successful rescue was and became totally obsessed with
the details. So I'm really excited to revisit those today
(04:18):
and the crazy intersection of your profession with your passion,
as we did with Harry. But first I love to
trace back through all the chapters that came before this one,
the one that people meet you in now Australian of
the Year. You have an Order of Australia Medal, lots
of letters at the end of your name. You're a
global hero. So can you take us back to the beginning?
(04:39):
Who you started as in Thornleigh, Perth. What were you
like growing up?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Well? I think on reflection, I probably was born at
the best time and place in the entirety of human history, really,
Queen's sixty five in Australia, most particularly Western Australia. It's
hard to imagine how it could get much better than that, really,
So I guess I had a pretty ordinary, really childhood
(05:04):
that was great, you know, I had a fantastic family environment.
There were four kids in the family. I was the oldest.
Great deal of encouragement from my parents to seek opportunities
and to project the idea that there was so much
out there to do. Lived in the city for the
first part of my childhood, but in the latter part
(05:25):
moved out to the country, and that was really the
most fantastic thing.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I mean, it sounds absolutely idyllic. Western Australia is one
of the most beautiful parts of the world, and a
country upbringing is so grounding. But I don't necessarily think
it foreshadows that you will grow up and become a
global hero and be welcomed with open arms by the
King of Thailand and treated by royalty like royalty. It's
(05:51):
not necessarily what you would expect from your pathway.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Let alone the sort of unique combination of technical cave
diving and veterinaries and that led you there. So what
did you actually think you would be when you grow up?
Did you have any idea? Do you dreamk this up?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I don't know that I over did. It's as funny
how everybody always wants you to have had a grand
plan fear life, and life is not actually like that.
Most of us are just doing what seems like the
next logical thing. People respond to incentives and respond to
their environment. I was just an ordinary kid, later on,
(06:28):
an ordinary person doing my job, getting an education, and
admittedly a hobby of cave diving is a little bit unusual.
Most people have never really heard of it before the
Ika rescue. But it was just a thing that I
fell into. I'd always been interested in adventure sports, parachuting
(06:49):
and climbing, and had a brief and unspectacular career in
mountaineering and a few other things, as you do, and
none of them really cold that much. And I did
scuba diving as part of that course, but looking at
fish was a bit boring. Really can only take so
(07:09):
much of that. But like so many things in life,
just right place, right time. I met someone that was
a cave diving instructor. As soon as I heard about
cave diving, I thought that is the thing for me.
That was twenty seven years ago. Now that's been good.
I'm a fantastic opportunity. I've now been all around the
(07:30):
world and been to places that nobody has ever been before,
and seen things that have never had human eyes laid
on them. And of all the reasons that I really
like cave diving, that is the one that really gets me.
You never get tired of that.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I mean, that sounds incredible and you're kind of selling
it to me, but there are still lots of parts
that terrify me, which we will get to. But I mean,
this show is called CZZA because I think we do
in society spend so much time looking for things like
success and prestige, but then eventually often realize that all
we're really looking for is yay. It's fulfillment, happiness and contentment.
(08:07):
But it eludes people for so long because so few
of us wake up knowing what we want to be
and then become that and then you live happily ever after.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It just so rarely happens that way.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
And when you don't know what you want to be,
I mean, how do you even find out what you're
passionate about? Like, how would you ever work out that
you loved technical cave diving without meeting someone? It just
seems so unlikely, and particularly as a VET, that doesn't
really seem to connect with what you were already doing.
But that's why I love your story so much. It's
not only to tell people about hobbies and pursuits they
(08:41):
might not have otherwise heard of in case it sparks
something for them. But also because you can have a
really unlikely combination of your passion and your profession. You
can be a veterinary surgeon who loves technical cave diving,
and that can lead you to be, you know, the
only person that can help globally in a particular situation.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
So, I mean, how did the combination come about for you?
Were you already a vet when you started cave diving?
How did it all work?
Speaker 1 (09:11):
No, I know it'd be pretty sad existence as a job. Really.
I think I'm a pretty firm believer in keep your
work you work, and your hobbies your hobbies, and in
my observation, people that try and mix the two it
doesn't really go well. And I can particularly it's because
I know a lot of diving instructors and cave diving instructors.
(09:32):
To my mind, when they start doing that, it just
spoils the whole thing because you never get to go
out and do your own stuff. You're too mixed up
in making a living, and it's not a particularly good
living anyway. So you're better off to do what you do,
and I do think that most people's lives there's probably
room enough to be good at two things. It's really hard.
(09:57):
You certainly have to have a great deal more talent
and gents that I've got to do more than that
and haven't really got the time. So hopefully your work
is one of them those of us that are afflicted
with having to work for a living, which is the
greater part of the population. And then there's something else
as well, and you know, whatever it is, your hobby
or your sport or an alternative occupation or whatever. I mean,
(10:21):
that's completely up to the individual, but it's really worthwhile
devoting yourself to developing skills that are not something that
you are then are living from, just for fun and
satisfaction and challenge.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
That's such a great SoundBite for this show, because I
think there is, you know, in the pursuit of your yay,
a lot of narrative around loving your job, and lots
of people do love their job, but it's discouraging for
those who maybe don't and find their passion in their
hobbies instead. And I think you're a wonderful example and
that's a great encouragement that they can be kept separate,
(10:58):
and sometimes there is a great benefit in doing so.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, well, you've been passionate in love with your work.
It's a nice sounding idea, and you're on you or
anybody else. I'm very happy for you. But there's a
lot of pretty mundane jobs out there and somebody has
to do them. The other thing is that, no matter
how much you like it, if you're facing up to
thirty or forty or more years of doing that, then
(11:24):
there's going to really come a time where you want
to move on to something else. So you should leave
an opening in your life. People say I don't know
what I'd do if I retired, and that just seems
crazy to me. I mean, what have you been going
to work for your whole life for. I've never heard
of somebody on their deathbed saying I wish I'd spent
(11:45):
more time at my desk.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Oh, one hundred percent. I say that all the time.
I've never met someone who thinks I wish I worked more.
I wish I did less of my hobbies. I wish
I made less time for my family and for joy
and for the things that really light you up. What
I think is the greatest shame is when people do
get to sort of that chapter in their lives, like retirement,
(12:07):
and they don't know what their passions are. It's not
that they haven't made time for them, but they've never
even explored who they are enough, because their profession does become.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
The entirety of their identity.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
So speaking to Harry and now speaking to you is
wonderful because you have dedicated so much time resources, Like
it's expensive. You know, it's not just sort of a
hobby where you go and do fingerpainting whatever, Like, it's
a big undertaking to travel the world to go and
find these places, and there's a lot of training and equipment.
I love that that is all for something that isn't
your job. It's purely because you enjoy it. But before
(12:38):
we get to the story, I do want to touch
quickly on your time as a vet, which, even though
it wasn't necessarily.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Your passion, did you enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
In my mind, it's one of the best jobs in
the world because you get to work with animals. But
I actually had a couple of followers mentioned and sort
of point out to me that it can be incredibly
tough and there are often some tough mental healths around
the profession.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
So what was your experience.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, so that's well, it's a complicated situation. We could
talk for a whole day on this. I should open
by saying I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, so
I can only speak for what I've seen with my
own eyes. I don't know that it's really any worth
(13:23):
in the vetory profession than in society generally. There is
some information around the suicide rates are higher amongst vets,
but there's no real supporting evidence as to why that is.
And it seems the most obvious explanation to me is
that vets have got means to do it. Thats are
(13:47):
They're privileged members of a privileged society here in Australia.
I mean, you get to do work that is meaningful.
Can't really top looking after animals, can you. That's the
trump card of everything than helping people as well, with
professions full of nice people. So I don't really get it.
What I'm saying shouldn't be taken to display any lack
(14:10):
of sympathy for people that have had problems. But why
that should be and whether it is any worse in
the veteran profession, I don't really know, just trying to
give you an honest opinion, But I don't want to
look insensitive, because I'm not insensitive to people suffering.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
No, I really appreciate the honesty of that perspective and
think it's really positive that you haven't had that experience
of the industry and it has felt like a privilege.
Did you enjoy your time as a vet?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I did? It was great. I had a couple of
careers in one I started out doing clinical work, then
as I progressed, I built quite a large group of practices,
and so in the latter part of my career, for
probably the last ten years or so, I was really
more of a management VET than a clinic I mean,
(15:00):
as a clinician, I was okay. I was a passable VET.
I wasn't the most fantastic fit in the world. Probably
my talents lay more in managing other vets and providing
an environment for them to be the best that they could.
In my own humble opinion, I was fairly handy at
that I met with some success.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
So I was lucky, well wonderful though that you did
have a great career, but that alongside in this parallel world,
you were able to excel extraordinarily at being a cave diver.
So let's turn to the passion because obviously this is
such a yay for you and has remained that, like
(15:37):
you said, many people don't even know what cave diving is,
just assuming and I think it was the same in
the case of a Thaire cave rescue, just assuming that
generally skilled qualified divers can do cave dives. But it's
quite a specific technical kind of diving. So when you
first discovered what it was, what was your first dive? Like,
(15:57):
where do you go from there? Is there a universe?
Like you can you know, you can do your scuba
diving certification. Is it like that where you find a
school and you get a teacher and you get a
certificate and then you can just go and do all
these places? They sound very hard to access. Is there
like a association that allocates you dives you're allowed to do?
Are they ranked?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Like?
Speaker 3 (16:17):
How does it all work when you first get into it?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, So when I began, there was a lot more informal, really,
and there was an association there would defined courses that
you did, and that that's how you start out. I mean,
it can be quite a good diver in open water,
but that does not qualify you anyway, and it's highly
dangerous to just decide to give it a go. There's
a few obvious things. The most important one, of course,
(16:41):
is that if something goes wrong, you can't just hit
the up button and go back to the surface because
there is no surface. There's rock above you, and so
you have to be able to deal with any contingency
not being able to see. If you get lost, you
need to get unlost again and find your way out.
Any equipment failures, you need to have a plan and
(17:01):
skills and the cool head to deal with them.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I do not have that.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
It's not for everyone. A lot of people temperamentally aren't
suited to it, but it certainly doesn't require any special powers.
All the people that do it just ordinary people. Really,
you need to go out and get the training. First
of all. There's a long history of people that have
come unstuck when they've just decided to give it a
(17:27):
bit of a go, So I cannot emphasize that enough.
But I was really lucky in that I met someone
who was an instructor but also became a bit of
a mentor to me. Took me on some expeditions way
before I was probably ready to be doing that. Within
(17:48):
a few months really of starting cave diving, I was
doing exploration and laying line, as we call it home,
putting guideline in a new cave. When you have that
sort of beginning, it's really to not have enthusiasm for
more of it.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I love watching people on the show go from talking
about just normal questions like their childhood and whatever to
the thing they really love.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
And the whole facial expression changes.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's like this light that you get when you talk
about something you're really passionate about it, particularly when you're
thinking about kind of the early days. I love watching
that transformation in your body language getting excited about it.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I'm so transparent, Sarah.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's wonderful to see the joy that you get from this.
And what fascinates me so much is that coming back
to that kind of societal pressure, there's a lot of
not just pressure within people's careers about certain jobs that
are worth more than others, or that look more successful
than others. I think in the realm of hobbies and
passions and just general interests, there are things that you know,
(18:53):
people think are like normal and things that people think
aren't normal, and we spend a lot of time trying
to be like other people. I love that if you
like cave diving, you like or really you spend a
lot of effort going to do a pursuit that most
people would describe as their nightmare. And that's the best part. Like,
I think it's such a good reminder that everyone enjoys
(19:15):
different things. Something that would make someone else crumble into
a ball of fear is someone else's joy, Like it's
meant to be like that. We're all composed of different things.
Like you said, you don't think of yourself as particularly special,
but you must be wide in a way where you
can be cool, not just cool and calm in water
that you can't see through, in tunnels that like are
(19:35):
so claustrophobic to the average person, and not just.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Calm, but you enjoy that. I love that it's possible
for us to have.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Such a broad range of interest as humanity, and your
hobbies don't need to look like anyone else's. I think
it's the point I'm trying to make.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I love that, Well, it.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Would be a pretty boring old world if we were
all the same, wouldn't it. And what I don't get
is people that don't really try anything. Just get out
there and you don't know what it is that where
your destiny lies, then just do something. Get started. At
least you'll require some skills and knowledge and meet some
new people. If it's not really for you, then go
(20:10):
and do something else. Nobody's got a lifetime long enough
to try it, or so if someone sets out to
be World crochet Champion, you know, good luck to them. Really,
I admire that it just be the best that you
can be.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I love that I was a corporate lawyer beforehand, and
when I sort of was asked, you know, what would
you do instead? Like, you know, at times when i'd
express it, I wasn't particularly happy doing what I would do.
They'd be like, well, what are your passions and what
are your interest and I'd say, well, I don't know,
I don't know what my passions are. And I think
someone one day sat.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Me down and said, well, like what are you trying?
Like what are you signed up for? And I was like,
oh nothing, and so that well.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
How are you going to figure out what you're passionate
about if you're not going out and trying something like
you need to be actively exploring who you are to.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Figure out what you like and what you don't like.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And even finding out that you don't like something, I
think is a good amount of data to help you
get closer to the things that you do like. So
I love that advice to just go crochet, go and
do pottery, like figure out what it is.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, And you know, when I look back, I mean,
I'm not a person for regrets at all. I think
that regret is the most destructive human emotion. You just
do what you do at the time and make the
best decisions that you can based on the information that
you've got. But you know, if I was going to
regret one thing, it would be that when I was younger,
(21:31):
I just wasted so much time. You think that you've
got all the time in the world and that it'll
never catch up with you. And I'm fifty nine years
old now, so I'm not done yet. I've still had
a few more dives left in me. But I look
back and I think I could have achieved so much
more if I hadn't just pissed time up against the wall. Really,
(21:55):
you're not going to have big regretting having done too much.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Often said, I make decisions based on a future regret
management matrix more than anything else, and like, will future
me regret this even if current me is like, fuck no,
I don't want to do that. Like future me would
rather regret doing it than having not done it and
letting the time pass anyway, because like the clock is
ticking no matter what, so you might as well have
done the experience. It'd rather regret having done it. And
it is always such a random sequence of decisions like
(22:22):
that that lead you to the pivotal moments in your life.
Which brings me back to the story I've been so
excited to chat to you about, and I mean one
of the parts I love the most. There are so
many parts, but it is that unique intersection of your
passion for technical cave diving and your job as a vet.
(22:43):
Like in all the world, the entire world of people
and all the different combinations of skills that exist, with
so many different options of how to solve this problem
that seemed impossible, that it was you and Harry who
got brought in from somewhere like I don't even know
(23:03):
how they even found you. I love that it wasn't
necessarily your professions, but it was your hobbies that made
you the perfect people for this one thing that happened
during your lifetimes. Like that, just it blows my mind
that they know, they called navy seals, they called other governments,
they called blah blah, and it was these two lads
from Australia.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Doing something that they loved.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
It isn't even their job that could do the dive
technically enough like that, just it just blows my mind,
still blows my mind.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, I should hasten to say that there are other
people involved as well, it wasn't just me and Harry
really to how they found us is as you get
higher up the food chain and cave diving, it's a
pretty small group of people. Really. Everybody knows each other
or knows of each other at least, and so it
(23:54):
doesn't really take long to make a list of who
you would really want on a mission like that. Two
British guys were Extanton and John Balanthon were the first
people on side of the first recognized cave divers on site,
and Harry and I know them quite well, particularly Rick.
I've done a lot of diving with him over the years,
and yeah, I wouldn't have taken too much imagination.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
And yet it did take a lot of imagination to
come up with the solution that you did end up
coming up with. So I think what I find so
fascinating about this whole thing is that in the media,
it did appear this whole thing has happened. These boys
entered a cave, we don't know the cave got flooded out,
we don't know if they're alive, and it was all
(24:38):
you know for a couple of days. Kind of it
felt like a blip on the radar. Then suddenly they
were out. Like in our media, that's kind of how
it seemed. It was like big problem holding breath, people
have gone over, experts of debt with it.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
They're out.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
And then when I read the book, the subtleties of
everyone involved had moments of thinking it was over. It
was impossible, Like I don't think it was conveyed to
the lay person in Australia, how touch and go the
situation was, how impossible and unlike you said, like the
book is called against all odds, Like I just didn't
(25:12):
understand that at the time. So hearing the details has
been my favorite story.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Ever to hear.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
So can you talk us through You didn't even get
there till day thirteen. Elon Musk had already been and
gone talk us through the situation.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, so it's I mean, it didn't seem all that
different to us either. I developed slowly and we didn't
know what was going to happen. And I mean so
this day, as I sit here now, I still really
can't believe that we got away with it. Wow, it
was pretty radical stuff to be bringing these kids out
(25:46):
when it was first suggested that there would be a
cave diving rescue through two point two kilometers of a
fairly gnally dive. Really, for us doing it just by ourselves,
without taking patience out and rescuing someone, it still would
have been a pretty sporting afternoon out really. But to
(26:06):
have be in charge of a little living, breathing human
and trying to keep them alive, and then you're adding
the aspect of doing the anesthetic while they're underwater as well,
I mean, that's just that's mad stuff. If somebody had
come up with this as a script and given it
to me to read, I would have thought, nah, mate,
(26:28):
it's too far fetched, going to tone it down a
little bit, but that's the way it was, and to
have gotten all thirteen of them out just still seems unbelievable.
We were one hundred percent prepared for casualties. It just
seemed fanciful for me me that we'd get them all out.
The only thing that really motivated us was that we knew,
(26:51):
we were convinced that if they stayed in the cave,
they were doomed. There was no chance of survival. It
was going to be months for the cave dried out
and the water stop flowing. So we had to give
it a go. And even if we just got one
out alive, that still would have been an improvement on
none of them surviving, so that was worth it. But
(27:12):
it's still weighs fairly heavily upon your shoulders at the time,
thinking that we might end up dragging them all out
of the cave in body bags would not have been
a really very cool scenario.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So again, I think it did seem like we called
in the experts. The experts did their thing. You brought
them out amazing, But I mean, I didn't even know
that before you guys had had the call up. Like first,
there was a big period of time where they hadn't
even found the boys. So, you know, so for everyone listening,
if you didn't know, the boys went in when the
cave was dry, so they were able to walk in,
(27:46):
and there was you know, obviously wasn't flooded at the
time they went in, and then it flooded and the
chambers sort of all filled up, So they were a
very very long way in from the entrance where they started,
and they obviously got stuck there and couldn't get out.
It took you know, a lot of days to even
figure out that where they were if they were alive,
and then there was a scram or just sort of
figure out how you would ever get them out. I
(28:09):
read or I think I heard you on a different
podcast saying that, I mean, you got the call with
two hours before.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
You had to get on the plane.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Had you been waiting for the call? Did you know
that they were thinking about because their initial plans weren't
to do a cave dive. Were they was there a
submarine plan?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
There were heaps of plans. It seemed like people from
all over the world were just popping their heads up
with bright ideas, and it was pretty easy to present
yourself as an expert in that environment at the time,
so there was all sorts of stuff going on, but
all those other plans just one by one they fell away,
(28:46):
were eliminated as implausible, are going to take too much time,
and it just more and more looked like cave diving.
But days were ticking by. Harry and I are still
sitting here in Australia, and even on the day before
we left, it looked like we weren't going to get
a guernsey and that we weren't really wanted. Up there
(29:10):
just seemed to be drifting, and it was pretty chaotic
up there as well, because nobody knew what to do.
The taie authorities were a bit lost about what the
best course of action was, and I can't really blame
them for that because there's not really any precedent for
this situation. Of all the things that the governance might
have thought of, this was not really on the list,
(29:33):
so I certainly can't hold that against them. But it
all just really came together over a few hours, and yeah,
you're quite right. We got the call to get yourself
to the airport, so it had to very hastily because
we were all packed up for another dive trip. So
I had to unpack, reconfigure, throw some stuff in a bag,
(29:53):
and just go. It was pretty frantic at the time.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Do you put your hand up? Like, because I think,
you know, normal channels of governments and militaries, you'd kind
of be looking at seals and all that kind of stuff.
But that having not been successful, how do you guys
put your hand up and use the channels? Or were
you just waiting for someone to suggest you, like, do.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
You know what I mean? How did the kind of
logistics work?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah? I know. We were totally volunteered. We were super cane.
We've been interested in cave rescue for quite a long time,
and the cave diving rescues that don't come around very often.
There's only three or depending on how you define it,
for cave diving rescues ever occurred, including this one in Wow.
(30:40):
And so I was prepared in my own mind to
go a whole lifetime without ever going getting to do one.
So when opportunity knocks, your best answer the door. Really Wow. Yeah,
we didn't have to be talked into it.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
So you took all your own equipment. This was all
stuff you had for your own pursues. And you just
had to kind of neck it all on over there.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, somewhat. I took what we thought we would need.
As it turned out, we start, we use slightly different equipment,
so gathered a bit up when we're over there, but
essentially it was our stuff. Yeah, wow, and throw it in.
I'm pretty used to packing for trips by now after
(31:24):
twenty seven years, so that didn't take very long.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, although I imagine it's never been such a quite
high stakes environment. So can you talk us through the
actual nitty gritty of the dive itself? Because again, when
I heard that there were divers, I kind of just
thought you were going down and that your water is
clear in most cases, you know. I was like, oh,
you're swimming and look at the fishes, but you know
(31:48):
it was coffee colored water. You said two point two
k's in and obviously then you have to come back out.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
So someone had.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Gone all the way in, and are they laying like
a guy for like, how you know where you're going?
How tight were the kind of holes that you need
to get through? How long was it in and out?
Like for us two k's in and out? I don't
sort of know what that translates.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
To like, yeah, to talk us through the stats of
the dive.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
So I think the most pertinent thing for people to
realize is that we couldn't really see anything at all.
The water is filled with silt and mud, and occasionally
you just get a bit of a glimpse of some
clear water. There were a couple of side passages that
were bringing in clear water, but the main river channel
(32:33):
everything was done by feel, and so we always place
a guideline to follow in cave diving. That is the
number one absolute cast iron rule of cave diving. That
you have a continuous guideline from the surface, so you
can follow that and that's enough information to get you
(32:57):
in and get you out again. And so it just
start at the beginning. I mean, it was two point
two kilometers in, but that's not for what we do normally.
That's not that big a deal. I've been far further
than that. So the day before the rescue started, Harry
(33:17):
and I did a WRECKI dive in there just so
we could experience the cave for ourselves and see how
difficult was going to be, and also to suss the
kids out, see how they were going as well, and
just what sort of condition that they were in. And
it took us about two hours to get in there
the first time.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Two hours one way, that's one way to get in.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
We had a couple of hours with the kids there
and just chatting to them, telling them what was well.
We had a letter written in tie with us that
explained what was going to happen, and the course was
pretty much set for the next day by then, and
so that was read out to the kids. They are
just oh, yeah, right, you're going to have an anesthetic
(34:05):
and dive through the cave whatevers needed. And they were
really cool. These kids, they get ten out of ten
from me, no doubt. They were tough little customers. They
get a lot of credit. You know, with survival, A
big part of it and when you're going to survive
or not is just being equal to the task and
(34:26):
making the decision that you are going to survive. The
rest follows from that. And you hear these stories about
people just giving up and the end is inevitable in
that case, but I think those kids were pretty determined
that wasn't going to happen to them. That was the
trip in and when we're coming out, when had kids
(34:46):
with us. Our estimate, which turned out to be pretty accurate,
was that it was going to take three hours to
get out with them, given that they had to have
top ups of anesthetic on the way out, and just
you generally looked after.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
So, I mean, there's so many I mean, I already
know all this, but it just it still gets me
every time. It's just so so fascinating that, I mean,
the whole thing that the sedation idea, because so if
I remember correctly, it was ketamine, and in my brain,
this is such a you're not going to think this.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Is such an amateur jump to make intellectually.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
But my brain went, oh, that must have been a
vet because ketomene is a horse trank closer.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
What's that your idea?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
No, so it actually, I mean it is pretty pretty
widely used in human field medicine. It's okay, like if
you're in a car crash or have some sort of accident,
they need to do a field procedure on you straighten
out your leg or put your shoulder back in after
it's just like haded or something like that. There's a
fair chance you're going to get kedek in because it's
really safe and easy to administer in the field, so
(35:51):
it was perfect. But the actual idea came from the
sort of powa veterinary source, a friend of Harry's who's
a doctor, but he'd been doing some fieldwork on seals
in Antarctica and they were using ketamine to slow the
seals down a bit so they can take blood from them,
(36:13):
and that was the origin of the suggestion.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Oh my god, I'm in the much as I'd like.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
To take credit for it, but I can't really.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
I mean, then you had to administer it, so you
could definitely take credit for that.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
It would be easy. I know my way around a
sy engine needle by now.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Okay, Well, the fact that you and Harry do I
mean Harry being an an nethetist, but the other divers,
their intersection of skills was not necessarily inclusive of administering injections.
So was it them who was practicing in like bottles?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah? Yeah, So there were some when it was pointed
out to these guys that were going to be administering
the anesthetic underwater in a cave, there were some pretty
apprehensive faces around the table. Fair enough, but you know,
these are the world's best cave divers they can do
sort of people, especially since they weren't given much choice
in the matter, they eventually decided they were up for
(37:08):
it and decided to give it a go. So, yeah,
they had a quick lecture and then they all had
a practice because some of them had never given an
injection before at all, and so they all injected some
water into some plastic coat poddles and that was it.
They were good to go. Oh my gosh, seems like
(37:29):
a pretty big deal, but in principle, it's pretty simple.
You just put the drugs in, the patient goes to sleep,
where you go.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Was that to control the sort of panic and disorientation,
because obviously they'd never die like normal adults probably would
lose their call in that situation having never done it
before a little on a small child.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Was that where the idea came from.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Oh totally yeah. I mean, I imagine the situation that
these kids were in. They would have to be completely
trusting of the diver though were with they wouldn't be
able to see anything for it up to three hours.
It was going to be a pretty rough old journey
going out of this cave. It's not just like swimming
down the inside of the pipe of a pipe, there's
(38:13):
twists and turns and all sorts of projections and obstacles
which I certainly kept swimming into. And they were going
to take a bit of a beating. They were going
to get really cold. It was not going to be
a fun time for them. And for a lot of people,
breathing off scuba underwater is a quite disconcerting experience when
they first try it as well. There's a lot of
(38:35):
people that don't really take to it straight away. But
they weren't going to get any practice. They were just
going to be straight into it, and if any of
them did panic underwater, then there was pretty much all
over just threshing around uncontrollably under the water. There was
not much chance of survival from that. And they could
(38:55):
also take a diver out with them as well, because
the divers would have compelled to make the best efforts
to save these kids. So, as crazy as it seems,
we decided that maybe the anesthetic was the best way forward.
Oh my gosh, anesthetizing someone and then putting their head
(39:16):
underwater for three hours, that is it's not really cool.
It's not something that you do. So it's a little
bit dangerous. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
I mean, I think that's when you really appreciate how
dire the situation was otherwise, that that was still the
best option, even given how unusual that is. It's interesting
to me and I loved hearing that even now you
still are surprised that it all worked out, like that's
how unlikely it truly was.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Oh yeah, well, look, if we were in the same
situation now, I would still be very apprehensive about doing this,
and you've looked for any other way of achieving the
outcome if you could. But sometimes you've just got to
make a choice and get into it.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
So my biggest thing that I find really fascinating about
the human brain is how, especially now, we are so
unaccustomed to stillness or quiet or boredom. It's very like
instant gratuity. How can I be stimulated all the time,
and like a lot of I think attention issues coming
out of the fact that we all need to be
(40:21):
stimulated all the time. I imagine that you know, underwater and
without any visual stimulation for long periods of time, that
it's a scenario that most people don't get an equivalent
of during daily life. We don't have to sit with
our thoughts in complete quiet like that very often? What
do you think about when you're doing a dive, a
(40:42):
normal dive, and then what were you thinking about in
Thailand when you're on the way in on the way out?
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Like how do you steal the chaos for three hours?
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, so it's not really like that. Like when you're
doing the dive self, then it's got your attention. There's
always something to think about. Are where you're going, is
the equipment? Okay? Where are the other people that are
around you? If there are any around you? It's not
(41:15):
just boring empty time that does come. So that doesn't
really apply to Thailand. But some of the big deep
dives that we do, we do hours and hours. I've
done some dives we're doing up to sixteen hours of
decompression and they sitting waiting really, so you get to
(41:37):
get plenty of time to consider your place in the
universe and just think about things.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Can you evolution into music underwater or do you use
it literally just you and yourself.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
I'm not really so much into that. Some people do that.
It has its little logistical problems, but they're not insurmountable.
That's not a real big thing for me. I don't know,
just getting the zone and plan the next start of
something like that. Bit of working out any problems in
(42:13):
your life, you get the opportunity to reflect on them. Wow,
just do what you've got to do. You've done the crime.
Just sit there and do the time.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
What about in Thailand? Were there any moments even during
the dive where, like, apart from the kids, were there
any moments where you were sort of like fearful or worried,
like for your own safety. I know there was a
Thai Navy seal diver who didn't make it. Was it
ever sort of dicey for you?
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah? No, there was not really, I mean for us.
This is not not, by a long shot, the narhlist
dive that we've ever done. So I was pretty confident,
I mean, happily in a cave, I am invincible and
cannot be killed anyway, so I have to worry too
much about that. It was all sort of okay from
(43:04):
that point of view, which is much. There was one
incident where on the first day of the rescue and
there was a problem with the compressor that had been
filling our cylinders and we had really bad air and
so a few of us were getting getting headaches and
getting sick and stuff like that that was not really good.
(43:26):
And this was on the dive into the cave to
rescue the boys on the first day, so we didn't
really need that very much. So when we had a chance,
we sort of marshaled all the cylinders we had and
tasted the air out of them as best we could,
and I managed to come up with some that weren't
going to kill us. But there were some harsh words
(43:47):
spoken at the end of that day about the quality
of the breathing gas that we were being given. But anyway,
that everything always turns out okay in the end, and
so did that. One. The concern that we had was
just for the kids that they weren't going to make
it through. I mean, at least we were in control
(44:07):
of our own destiny, and if something went wrong for us,
it was because we'd made a mistake, so we can
take responsibility for that. We do it every time we
go diving. But those kids, they just had to take
what was coming to them. So, you know, I don't know,
like you try and think, well, we were doing the
best that we could, and nobody can ask for any
(44:29):
more than that, but it still would have been pretty
upsetting if we'd started to lose these kids. I don't know,
never really came to find out about it.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Well you didn't have to, which is wonderful.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
I mean, I can't even imagine, like over it was
what three days, I think it dives in and out,
in and out and alternating between. Were there four of you,
five of you that were sort of alternating going in
and out?
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Six of us in the yeah, yep, I mean Harry
and I had stations. So Harry was in a chamber
nine with the boys and he was doing the inductions
of the anesthetic and sending them on their way, and
I was downstream a bit. So after they had their
first dive, which was about three hundred meters so maybe
(45:14):
twenty minutes or so, I can't remember exactly, and then
they'd come out, there was another dry chamber there, so
the boys all had to come out of the water.
It carried across this dry chamber, which was a few
hundred meters long, have all their gear taken across, put
them back in the water again, and send them on
their way. So that was my station. So that was. Yeah,
(45:37):
they were tough. Long days and the other four British
divers were actually diving them out, or other five British
divers on the last day, so you know, probably like emotionally,
the toughest part of it was at the end of
that first day when we were bringing four boys out
(45:58):
on the first day, so that all gone and we
just had to dive ourselves out following them. We gave
them a bit of a head start so we didn't
catch up to them and just headed out, and of
course we had no idea how things had gone. Harry
and I didn't know if we were going to arrive
back at dive Base and find four corpses there that
(46:22):
hadn't made it. No idea, so the pressure was off
us at that stage, but that was all I could
really think about, just a bit apprehensive about what the
result was going to be. I can clearly remember. I mean,
it's one of my outstanding memories is getting back to
dive Base on that first day and I just stuck
(46:45):
my head out of the water and I said, did
anyone survive? And the guys that were there said, yep,
all good, four out of four, no problems. And I'll
never really forget that moment, it was just like the
weight of the world had been lifted off my shoulders,
and you start to think, maybe this crazy plan can
actually work against all expectations.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
I mean, what an extraordinary an extraordinary thing for humanity,
Like it's just it stands out as one of these Yeah,
like everyone remembers where they were when they first heard this.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Story, like it's it's absolutely crazy.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
And I mean, you know I said to you when
I first emailed you, I just think you too a
legendary And I know you continue to refer to yourself
as just a normal person, but most normal people haven't
literally saved sort of the lives of thirteen other human
beings and all their extended families and everyone in their
lives who you've given you the gift of their future.
(47:41):
So just extraordinary blows my mind.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Well, it is a pretty good story. I'm going to
admit that.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
I mean, you should admit it. It's an amazing story.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
What has it been, I mean it's been what four
twenty eighteen six years?
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Six years? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yeah, how do you feel? How is your relationship to
diving now afterwards? Did it change after that? Did you
not dive for a little while, like how did How
did things feel afterwards?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Oh, I had a bit of catching up to do.
That that was a little trip, so it put us behigh.
I mean, that was that was pretty good. We had
no idea at the time that this was such a
huge story around the world because we're just there. It
was somewhat isolated, pretty busy.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Yeah, you were busy. You had enough to do.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
We weren't watching TV or anything like that. Had a
little bit of feedback from home, but that was about it,
but just didn't have any comprehension that this was occupying
so much attention. And it was really only once we
got back to Australia that it became clear to us
that we had got a bit of attention and some
(48:49):
notoriety I suppose. I mean, it was all all in
a good way. But when you're just an ordinary bloke
and then living your life and then all all of
a sudden you find yourself at the center of that,
having reporters show up at your front door and just
continual attention and requests for interviews and stuff like that,
(49:12):
just think, well, I didn't really see this one coming.
So the rest of you happened in July. We already
had a trip to Canada organized for September October, so
we disappeared on that for a month or so, and
we thought, well, by the time we come back, we
will be forgotten about and all the fussle of died down.
(49:34):
We can just get back on with normal life. But
it turned out that it was not quite that way,
and it's just been going on ever since. I mean,
even six years later, there's still a hunger for this story.
I mean, it's just a great story where everybody's a winner,
apart from Saman Gunan, who was the one Thai guy
(49:56):
that died diving in the cave. But apart from that,
it's just like a one hundred percent great story for everyone,
and everybody seems to have some angle. It doesn't matter
who you are, but if you're a kid or a parent,
or you're interested in rescue or emergency services, or there's
(50:18):
a medical aspect to it, or a diver or an adventurer,
everybody's got some point of connection with this story. And
you don't get that. I can't really think of another
example where everybody's got such a direct point of connection
to it. And it's just a fantastic outcome where really
(50:41):
victory is snatched from the jaws of defeat at the
last minute. So I guess it makes sense that people
are so okay on the story.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Absolutely, I just yeah, I love it. Like I said,
it's like my favorite story ever. And if anyone I
come across hasn't heard of it, I insist on telling
them the entire thing because I think it is.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
I mean, there are so many bad news stories that
you continually hear, and yet you want these ones to
win in people's attention because it's an amazing Yeah, it's
an amazing story to tell. It's so uplifting, and yeah,
everyone does have a point of connection what they don't
all have a point of connection with is I think
even if you aren't interested in cave diving or rescue
(51:21):
or Thailand or anything, it's still a story that everyone
can find or in. But even if you aren't interested
in cave diving, I also think that finding out about
the niche community that it is is still fascinating because
before we finish off the tie rescue, but just diving
in general, Like I would love to know what's the
longest you've ever dived and what's the coolest place you've
(51:42):
been what's the place that you want to go in
your lifetime that no one else has gone? And specifically
because I'm all my brain ticks over logistics of stuff.
How do you go to the bathroom when you're doing
a sixteen hour dive?
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Like?
Speaker 3 (51:55):
How do you do because you don't reservice?
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Right? Like?
Speaker 3 (51:57):
How do you like, you know, talk us through it.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
There's a lot of questions there as far as longest dives.
Depends which way you look on, So I'll give you
three different answers to that question. So the longest diving
time is just about just over seventeen hours. Longest dive
in distance is eleven.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Kilometers down or sideways or every.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
Waste, yeah, alongside distance from the entrance and deepest dive
two hundred and eighty four meters So that site. That's
a site in South Africa that Harry and I dived
earlier this year and it was until a few years
ago the deepest cave dive in the world. But there's
(52:45):
a couple of deeper dives that have been done.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
Yeah, wow, how do you eat? Do you get starving
over seventeen hours? And yeah, bathroom like what do you
do thirsty as well?
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yeah, well, if you're in fresh water, you can drink
the water, so that's not really a problem. But let's
see easier solution of all that. One don't even have
to take a drink with you. If you're in the
ocean or in salt water, then that's not the case
you but you can drink out of a drink bottle,
just like a squeezy bottle. That's no problem as far
as food goes. So sometimes we have habitats underwater, particularly
(53:20):
when it's really cold water, and so we just have
a little inverted bag basically that we'll fill up with air,
and you can climb up into that and sit there
and you can have a bit of a feed, so
your friends and support divers will bring you down something
to eat and drink in there. It's quite a pleasant
environment compared to actually being in the water. But at
(53:43):
other times, if you're doing all of the decompression in
the water, then you can still eat, particularly like something
like a chocolate bar or something like that. You just
have to make sure that you take small bites because
once you take a bite, you have to eat all
of that and swallow it before you can take another breath,
and you don't Oh yeah, that's the track for young players.
(54:07):
We all learn when we first start, but get used
to that. As far as going to the toilet, so
number one is not really any problem or particularly for
boys anyway. Just a bit of plumbing, a little raincoat
on the old fellow with a tube coming out at
the end and that's easily achieved. But yeah, number two
(54:31):
has just got to plan ahead and wow, time bit
of a bit of a low fiber diet for a
day or two events is advisable.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
Right, Okay, so you actually do have to like, yeah,
do your prayers like the reverse card loading that people
don't marathons and stuff.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
That's okay, We've been doing all this stuff for a
long time. We're aware of all the issues.
Speaker 3 (54:54):
And is there a dive that you have yet?
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Do you have like kind of a list of dives
in your lifetime that you want to conquer and is
there one that you're just like can't not have done
or is there one that you're planning to do?
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Well, it's not really like that because it's exploration is
really the name of the game. So the dives you
want to do are the ones that haven't been done yet. Ah,
So always looking really, but I've got a few projects
on the go, and so this year I've been to
China and there is so much to do up there
(55:29):
and it's virtually untouched. Really, there are lifetimes of exploration.
So I've hooked up with a few of the Chinese
divers up there and looking forward to going back there.
There's lots to do. Spain is another big place. I'm
involved in a project over there that's the longest cave
divers in furthest distance from the entrance. So I was
(55:54):
there with Jason Mallinson, another one of the divers from
the Cave Rescue, and going back there next year again
in August and September, so hopefully extend that one as well.
I mean, probably my career defining dive has been this
cave in New Zealand that we've been going to called
(56:14):
the Pierce Resurgence, and that's been going there for so
Harry first went there in two thousand and seven. I
came along a little bit later twenty ten, but I've
been on eight expeditions there now and keeps getting deeper
and going further and that's really cold water too, just
(56:35):
to make it even more unpleasant. So just organizing now
for another trip up there, going there in February and
getting ready to lay a bit more light.
Speaker 2 (56:47):
Amazing. Oh well, that's so exciting. I just yeah, I
can't even imagine. I mean, like, I hate being cold
and don't love being well like I love Yeah, I
just can't imagine it. But I love how much you
love doing it, and I hope that February's dive goes
really well. I'm so so grateful for your time. And
I know you've probably rehashed this story a million times,
but I don't think it will ever get old.
Speaker 3 (57:09):
It is just such a good one and spark so
much joy.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
Yeah. Well, there's still plenty more dives to do, so
if anybody listening is Keane, I really recommend it to you.
There's stuff out there. There's still so much exploration to do,
and just go out get yourself the training first, listen
to me on that one. Yeah, then get into it.
There's a lot of excitement to be had.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
Well, I really do hope that across these two episodes
there is an aspiring cave diver out there who might
not have otherwise done it, but who now that they
know that there is so there are so many things
that you can do and that you can make a
twenty seven year career out of it if you want
to and going and counting, and you can do it,
you know, all over the world. I hope that there
is at least one who's been listening who chooses to
(57:57):
continue pursuing it because.
Speaker 3 (57:58):
Of you, guys.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
I hope so too.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
Thank you so much, Craig. It's been an absolute pleasure.
For those who haven't read the book. I'll make sure
to include Aleek in the show notes because still one
of my favorite books ever. There's much more detail if
you've enjoyed the detail we're listening to that you've listened
to in this and thank you so much for joining it.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
Was really enjoyed it. Thanks Sarah.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
Oh my goodness. I mean I've already read their book
against all odds many times. I've watched the documentaries, I've
watched the movies, but I'm never any less blown away.
Speaker 3 (58:26):
What an incredible feat.
Speaker 2 (58:27):
I wish I could have kept chatting for hours or
crawled into Craig's brain to understand more. It really makes
me so enthusiastic about humanity, and I hope you guys
found some inspiration too. If you enjoyed, please do share
the episode on socials or take a minute to leave
us a review. I always forget to ask. I mean,
in seven years, we've only amassed I think less than
a thousand, and that's because I'm so bad at asking.
(58:48):
But it really does mean so much to keep growing
the neighborhood, even now in what.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
Is our eighth year, which blows me away. It means
a lot to keep us going.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
So if you haven't subscribed or left a review, I'd
so appreciate you taking the time. And in the meantime,
I hope your February is off to a great start
and you're seizing your yay
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