February 5, 2025 • 23 mins
Welcome to BIZ - the podcast that's rewriting the rules of work for a new generation.
Join Em Vernem (ambitious but efficient), Michelle Battersby (launched Bumble APAC) and Soph Hirst (ex-Google) as they tackle everything from dealing with difficult bosses to knowing if your side hustle can become your career.
In this first episode:
Asking for a pay rise is about as comfortable as explaining to your boss why you've been late three times this week. But what if there was a way to do it that actually works?
Biz career coaches Michelle Battersby and Soph Hirst to share their proven framework for getting what you want at work (spoiler: don't mention your expensive oat latte habit).
Plus, they bust the myths about asking every year, using other job offers as leverage, and what to do if you get a 'no'.
Consider this your cheat sheet to having the money conversation - minus the awkward sweating.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, lovely neighborhood. I'm back in your ears today with
a special episode from Muma MEAs brand new work and
career podcast BIZ. This episode is about something lots of
people can find a bit uncomfortable, maybe a bit of
an ata. I've definitely spoken about it before and I
find it uncomfortable, and that is asking for a pay rise.
Now is a great time to start thinking about what
(00:20):
you can do over the next few months to prepare
for the pay rise discussion that often takes place midyear.
So take a listen to the episode and let us
know what you think. I'll be back soon with another
episode of CZA soon.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome to BIZ, the podcast that's rewriting the rules of
work for a new generation. I'm m Vernon and look,
I would describe my work ethic as someone who's a
career driven girl boss, but I'd also like to clock
off at four PM. Career success is important to me,
but I just want someone to kind of tell me
what the shortcuts are. The good news is my two
(00:58):
co hosts give x career advice and they know a
lot about business. Michelle Battisby launched Bumble into this region
and now she runs her own startup called Sunroom. It
helps people monetize their content. And when I entered the
workforce in twenty eighteen, Look Michelle was the person I
wanted to be. She's literally thezillennial woman's career idol. My
(01:20):
other co host, Sophhirst, is an ex Google marketing manager
and she's the founder of work Baby. It's a career
coaching program for people in their early career era like myself.
Mission sof have been bosses, managers, employees, and employers, and
the way this show is going to work is that
they're going to share all of their knowledge with tired
career girlies like myself. First start being how to ask
(01:43):
for more money?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
How much money can I realistically ask for? I don't
know what's reasonable and what's considered a promotion. Now, I
do you where to start?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I swear all my male friends have no problem asking,
but I just feel so embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I just don't know what to say.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I think I once went in and said, maybe look
at I don't know, like maybe a like pay rise
in six months, and my boss said yeah, sure, and
then never spoke of it again.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
It's so ikey talking about money. I remember going into
a pay rise meeting. I had all my ducks in
a row.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I knew everything I was going to say, and the
moment I got in there and stirred down the barrel
at my boss, I got so nervous and completely froze.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And we didn't even get to that part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Talking about pay rises is about as comfortable as when
you have to call in sick when everyone saw you
taking three tequila shots. I'd worked drinks to night before.
But luckily Beier's career coaches, Michelle and Sof are going
to share exactly what the expert secrets are on how
to nail that conversation. So let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
So, salary is kind of a weird thing to talk
about work. I actually think it's very awkward to talk
about money with your coworkers, and there's a lot of
bad advice doing the rounds on social media about how
to actually ask. So we're gonna some paarise myths and
I answer your big questions about asking your big boss
for more cash. Michelle, you worked in HR, so I
(03:07):
imagine you've been behind the scenes at quite a few
pairise conversations.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, I feel like I've seen the good, the bad,
and the ugly. I once saw someone get a six
figure pay rise off the back of going and getting
a job offer from another company, So we can talk
about if that's do or I don't.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
And I've also seen people get a.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Bit emotional, get a little aggressive, maybe bring a pay
rise up as a condition or an ultimatum, which is
not the best way to go about it, as it
can move away from the facts and be counterproductive to
the argument.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I think it can get very personal. Something I feel
love doing with my clients is you do this sort
of mental flip so instead of they're sitting there thinking
why do I want a pair rise? Why should I
get a pay rise? Try to imagine yourself as your
boss and think why should I give Michelle a pay rise?
Why would I want to get Michelle a pay rise?
Want to frame it all as the kind of value
and the benefit to the company. If you're thinking about
(04:04):
why a company would want to give you a pay rise,
it's really about a lot of the time retaining good talent.
It's really expensive to hire new talent, and they really
do want to retain good talent. So this EPP is
all about helping you prove that you're good talent.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Okay, So let's bust some of those myths. I went
out on my socials and I asked people what do
you want to know about pay rises? And I got
a ton of questions back, so let's get into it.
Probably one of the most common was when should I ask?
And should I be asking?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Every year?
Speaker 4 (04:52):
So, if I'm very keen for your take on this,
do you think it's okay to ask for a pay
rise every year?
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
If you are on TikTok, everyone says, yes, you should
be asking every year. So first of all, I think
there's a lot of variation in terms of how companies
approach pay rises. So first find out what the deal
is at your company. At smaller companies, they probably don't
have much process and your manager is probably the person
that's going to approve it. At bigger companies, there's probably
a very formal process. You know Google it was very
(05:19):
formal and transparent, and the person you are actually asking
your manager is probably several levels away from the person
who's actually approving it. So first, I think just understand
how the process works at your company. I think it
really helps have mates in HR or in the finance
team to know when budgeting happens and things like that.
But back to the question, so should you ask every year?
(05:40):
I actually really know to this, and I'll tell you why.
I think the ideal situation that you want to get
in is that you've actually created a reason that your
compensation should change. So that's like a change in your scope.
You've got more experience and you're better at your job now,
so you're actually delivering more value to the company, and
you want approve that. I think just having this artificial
time on your head off like every twelve months I'm
(06:01):
gonna ask, isn't really the right approach. And I think
it's more about what's changed and what can you kind
of package up and proof has changed and therefore you
deserve a pay rise.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
I love that because I obviously do spend too much
time on TikTok because my default was yes, I do
think people should be asking for a pay rise every
twelve months. But my perspective is rooted in those people
actually having performed, Like I'm assuming that all those people
are top performers and they are contributing to the organization.
(06:30):
They have evolved, they have developed. So if you're sitting
there wondering if I should be asking for a pay
rise every twelve months, I feel like the answer is yes.
If you are getting shit done and you're moving the
needle in your.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Role, what are you thinking about cost of living and
inflation and if employers should be getting pay rise based
on sort of that changing.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
So I actually think inflation is worth being aware of.
Like that actually is a reason maybe why you could
rationalize asking for a pay rise every year, But you
absolutely should not be bringing up inflation as the reason
why you deserve one, Like just because inflation has.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Occurred does not entitle you to a pay rise.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
And I think if you went into a conversation and
that was your leading argument from an employer perspective, it
comes across as a bit of a weak argument, like
give me your actual tangible results, don't just default to inflation.
But we also need pay rises to ensure we're able
to live, to survive, to pay our rent, to buy
our groceries. So I do think it's a reason why,
(07:29):
like seeking a pay rise every twelve months is like
reasonable from a human perspective, but you still need to
be backing it up with how you improve the company performance.
Otherwise you're just not going to get the pay rise
from your employer in the first place.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I did some research into whether employers actually plan to
give pay rises, so there was a say you were
link in the show notes, but it's said in Australia
ninety six percent of employers plan to give pay rises
in twenty twenty four. A third of that was actually
flat for all staff, percent was inflation, and twenty eight
percent was actually based on performance. So even if your
(08:03):
company is planning to give pay rises, it's still going
to be mostly based on performance, so you need to
sort of prove you're delivering.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Yeah, and if inflation was like two percent or three percent,
for example, you would want more than a two or
a three percent pay rise. So that's another reason why
you wouldn't really want inflation to be the basis of
your argument. But it's more just a personal reason I think.
I think if you're unsure if you're even paid a
fair rate, a really good place to start is to
go to a website like Hayes or Hudson and look
(08:34):
at market data that will give you an indication of
what people in similar roles to you in your city
are being paid. And I think that's a very good
start if you're just going in completely blind. Back to
my point earlier around if getting offers from other companies
is a good way to get a pay rise or not,
(08:55):
I actually do think interviewing at other jobs is also
a very good way to get a red on what
you might be paid out there in the market. But
I do think if you are then going to use
an offer to try and get a pay rise in
a job you're already in, you definitely need to be willing.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
To walk away.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
So if you're interviewing somewhere else, you have to be
down to take that role, because you might not always
bring that offer to your employer and they might not
match it, they might say no, worries see you later.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
So you have to be.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Strategic and like intentional about how you go about that.
If that's a process you're going to follow, what do
you think, Yeah, no, I agree, I think it can
be really effective. I think it's massive risk. So the
point that you mentioned before, you have to be willing
to walk away. Another big question is how much should
I actually ask for what's actually going to have an
impact on your life? So, like anything less than five
percent after tax is second out and month and month,
(09:46):
you may not really notice that. And then if you're
getting sort of up to the you know, twenty percent,
that's really a promotion that you're asking for, and that's
a big jump. So I think somewhere in the range
at five to fifteen is probably what people are thinking
about in terms of pay rise, but it's going to
be based on so many different factors. Amazing. Okay, another
question was I feel too uncomfortable asking is it really
(10:08):
worth it?
Speaker 3 (10:08):
What do you think? This is my approach to life.
I think in general, tough conversations are worth it at
work and in life. So you know, a good way
to think of that is that good leaders ask for
what they want and need at work all the time.
So in a way, you doing this is actually a
demonstration of your leadership and you shouldn't feel scared about it.
(10:29):
That said, it does take work and preparation, and if
you go into it without prepping, there is a risk
that you show up as not being able to read
the room, that you don't really have your shit together,
and I think there is a risk to it. And
also it's just like a ton of efforts. So I
think you really want to ask yourself how much am
I asking for? Is there really a case for this,
like have I actually delivered, you know, met expectations, exceeded expectations,
(10:53):
has my role changed? And then I think that that
line around, there's no harm in asking, just ask. I
do think there is a harmon asking if you don't
do the prep and you don't really have a case,
and you haven't read the room. Chaf that into account
and then if all those things are a yes, then
go into it with like, this is you showing leadership
and it's actually going to be an excellent learning experience
for you. Do not be scared, and I think probably
(11:15):
especially women, more of us should be up scared.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I think that's such a good answer, no notes from me,
and I think it really moves into the next question
very well, which is should I ask if my company
isn't performing about reading the room? I think you can
ask for a pay rise if your company isn't performing,
but you need to be damn sure that you're still
(11:39):
contributing to the company's objectives. And I think when you
approach the conversation, it would be you know, I know
as a business, we haven't reached x Y and Z.
But I've got some ideas about how we can do
that in the next quarter. And here's how I'm going
to move.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
That for you.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
You're showing empathy and compassion, you're aware that the company
isn't quite there, and you're showing up like but I'm
focused on that, and here's how I'm going to improve
that for all of us. Because I think to your point,
if you don't read the room in that kind of environment,
if you don't do that, well, I don't want to
scare people, but it actually could.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Make you a bit of a target. So it's good.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
For everyone to be aware how you contribute to the
business consistently.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I also think it's a long game as well. Sometimes
you have to play. So maybe you're gonna ask and
then they're going to say no, and then six months
later you sort of want to say to them, well,
if it's a no, now what would it look like,
what to take for it to be a yes? And
sort of start planning me seede, but yeah, working on
it with your manager together. There's sort of no hum
in asking knowing that it might you know, but it
might be yes later. Cool.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
So that's your big questions answered now you're probably thinking, so,
how the hell do I actually ask?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
That's on the way next, So how do you actually
ask for a pay rise? Remember your mindset, get inside
your boss's head. Frame it in terms of the value
(13:07):
you're actually bringing for the company. Don't make it about
you and your personal financial situation. For example, don't mention
the saving for a house deposit or you know, mentioned
cost of living. We're going to make it all about
the company and the value you're delivering. Don't be scared.
You have the right to ask, and it is showing
good leadership. Okay, Michelle, you are an HI expert. Tell
(13:29):
us how people can think about framing their value.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
This is a very simple framework. Or you can think
about it just like three prompts, and this is what
you're going to sit down at your desk and think
about before you go into these conversations. And the prompts
are experience, role, and output. So when you think about
your experience, you're obviously thinking about how many years you've
been doing the job. What unique insights do you also
(13:54):
bring based on that experience. But I think when it
comes to advocating for a pay rise, when you've been
at the company for a few years. For example, it's
how has your experience grown? Have you done courses leadership?
Have you been on training camps, have you, you know,
gone to conferences around the world, whatever it is, you're
really thinking about how you've grown your skill set and
(14:16):
your knowledge.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I love that. So it's not just experience in terms
of I've been here, you know, two years, it's actually,
how have you invested in improving your experience and the
experience that you have in doing that role is like
expertise exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
And I know we'll get to this, but that's also
something that you can also be asking for in these
performance conversations, like I want to do a training course
on X, I want to do this online course. Really
simple things people can do that I just think make
them sound and seem a bit smarter. Is got a
bit bored over the break? Did these three online Harvard courses?
You know, They're just really easy little wins that just
(14:51):
make you seem like you care.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
The second thing is role.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
So how has your role evolved? Did someone go and
leave and you took on responsibilities? Are you managing more people?
Are you actually doing three jobs? Is your job moving
well beyond what the original job description was those are
things that you can use to advocate for a pay rise.
(15:15):
The biggest and most important one though, is obviously your output.
And this really needs to be evidence and fact based,
so numbers relating to your KPIs, but always bringing it
back to the company's objectives as well, and as we've discussed,
really leading with what the business is trying to achieve
(15:37):
and then how you as an individual have helped them
get there. So if you have an epic hack for this,
because you can also find yourself approaching these conversations, especially
if they only happen once a year in your business
and you've now forgotten half the things that you've done
throughout the year.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I always hated this so much. It's like summarize twelve
months of your work into six bullet points, and I
you know, you never know what you're gonna do. So
the best hack that I found to doing this is
actually just too every time that you have an example
of good work, and that might be results metrics, it
might be something a client has said about you, it
(16:14):
might be something a cowork has said about you, and
slack anything that is like you do a good work,
you're going to screenshot that and just throw it in
a folder on your desktop. I try and save like
a couple of week And what you're gonna find is
when you go through that, you're just gonna jog your
memory and gonna have all these great examples. So that's
the fastest hack I found.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
The other thing people really struggle with is how do
you actually articulate your value and kind of summarize it
into a nice, neat little bullet point that sounds professional
and human whatever.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I think it was a really good question that you
had from someone right around this.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Yes, another question that people kept coming through with was
how to articulate your value if you've contributed via a
lot of soft skills. So this could be things like
critical thinking, communication, in fluid les, leadership. And I think
this is important because how you get shit done matters.
Like I like to think about it, like, soft skills
(17:08):
achieve hard outcomes, you know, So don't think just because
you bring softer skills to the table that you still
can't articulate that into a tangible bullet point.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
So so please tell us how to do that. We
actually just took the words out of my mouth. Yeah,
that's the thing, Like, it's the soft skills that mean
the company can actually do stuff that leads to the hardship.
So yeah, I wanted to give people away that they
can actually think about articulating their soft skills. First of all,
this is what a lot of people miss. You want
to give context to the points that you're actually sharing.
(17:40):
So it's not just about data points and stats. It's
actually give context. Why was it great or why was
it hard? So some examples would be, you know, was
it the first time that you did something like this,
Were there lots of different teams that had to come
together for the first time, was there a really tight
turnaround time on this, or you're dealing with tons of
different roadblocks and delays. You want to try and building context,
(18:01):
and then the main thing is to link that skill
to the actual impact and the results. So there's a
really great sentence you can use, and we're going to
put this in the newsletter. You want to say, I
demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that, and then
you put the impact. So I'm going to give you,
guys an example demonstrated leadership by bringing together stakeholders from
(18:23):
four different teams who have never worked together before to
collaborate on a project for the first time, which meant that.
So I think you can actually use context and then
link it to something that actually has impact and a
result attached to it.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
I love that so much. Honestly, I feel like this
will be so helpful for people. I'm sitting here thinking
I wish I could have soaf in an earpiece as
I do these conversations, but we're actually doing none.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
This is it.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
I think we've made it super clear. So when you're
going into these conversations, focus on the company. I know
as a company we've been working towards X, Y and
z A. Here's how I've contributed to that in my role.
And then use your structure. So what were your three keywords?
Can you repeat them for me?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that result?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Skill what which meant that result?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Love it?
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Okay, So what happens if they say no, slash we
don't have the budget right now?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah, which probably will happen right Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
I think in this situation it's like I wouldn't take
no as meaning no full stop. It just means not
right now. This is an opportunity to continue the conversation
and as you said, play the long game. And I
also think you can ask for different things in the
meantime that aren't just monetary right totally.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
So one of my favorite things to do is actually,
if you get a no, then think about asking for
non financial pay rise. So that might be something like
there's this specific course that I really want to do.
It might be I really want this opportunity to work
on a specific project, or like a really cool mentoring opportunity.
You might want to travel a little bit more, so
maybe it's like, you know, can I take you to Melbourne?
(20:03):
Whatever it is you want to be asking and think
about non financial incentives as well. The interesting thing about
asking for non financial incentives or like a non financial
pay rise. If you think about like say you get
a pay rise and it's two thousand dollars and then
tax comes out of it, it's actually not that much
in the end. But there's this quote from Warren Buffett,
who's one of the most famous investors in the world,
(20:25):
and he actually says, by far, the best investment you
can make is in yourself. And so you might actually
be better taking that two grand and investing that in
your own skills and your own self instead of just
thinking about getting the cash.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Okay, so we're all about concrete action points here it biz,
So so what are they?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
So? One, do your research, understand how your company runs
the promotion and pay rise system, and know the market
rates for your role and your industry. Two is start
planning early, so talk about what is expected to be
in your role with your make sure you understand the
big company priorities, style your winds folder, and you know,
(21:05):
consider giving your manager heads up like this is something
that I actually want to work towards. And then three,
make it about them, not you. So this is about
the value that you delivered. Grab Michelle's experience role output
framework in the newsletter and that will have you totally
sort it.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Okay, So listening to Michelle and so you guys, I've
been doing this all wrong. I didn't realize that I
shouldn't just walk into my boss's office and beg for
money just like Oliver Twist style. If you don't implement
a strategy, not only is your manager going to say
no to you, but you'd probably also give them the egg,
which I know we all know is way worse. So
(21:49):
here's what I'm actually going to do, and you should too,
if you want more money but you hate those awkward conversations.
So first, I'm going to start keeping a track of
all of the good stuff I do at work. Because
I didn't realized my boss wasn't psychic and didn't know
I've been staying back late nearly every day this past week.
I mean, it's kind of rude, but it's understandable. Then
I'm going to go straight to Hayes dot com dot
(22:10):
au to figure out what I should actually be earning.
And finally, I'm going to practice saying I deserve more
money in the mirror, and I'm going to try to
do it without cringing, because apparently asking for what you
want is leadership. It's not being annoying, which is so
great to know. Thank you so much for listening to
our first episode of Bids and Look. We want to
(22:31):
tell you that we are here to help. Well, Michelle
and Sofa here to help.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Do not worry.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I will not try to help you myself. Think of
them as your new work mentors. They're ready to answer
your actual work question. So make sure you sign up
to our newsletter to get all the support you need.
Plus our biz Inbox episodes drop later in the week
where we answer all of your questions and the biggest
work issues that are trending on TikTok. See you next time.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of BIZ.
If you'd like to hear more episodes of BIZ, make
sure to follow or subscribe to the show in your
podcast app. There'll be a link in the show notes.
And in the meantime, I hope you're seizing your yay
Hello, lovely neighborhood. I'm back in your ears today with
a special episode from Muma MEAs brand new work and
career podcast BIZ. This episode is about something lots of
people can find a bit uncomfortable, maybe a bit of
an ata. I've definitely spoken about it before and I
find it uncomfortable, and that is asking for a pay rise.
Now is a great time to start thinking about what
(00:20):
you can do over the next few months to prepare
for the pay rise discussion that often takes place midyear.
So take a listen to the episode and let us
know what you think. I'll be back soon with another
episode of CZA soon.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome to BIZ, the podcast that's rewriting the rules of
work for a new generation. I'm m Vernon and look,
I would describe my work ethic as someone who's a
career driven girl boss, but I'd also like to clock
off at four PM. Career success is important to me,
but I just want someone to kind of tell me
what the shortcuts are. The good news is my two
(00:58):
co hosts give x career advice and they know a
lot about business. Michelle Battisby launched Bumble into this region
and now she runs her own startup called Sunroom. It
helps people monetize their content. And when I entered the
workforce in twenty eighteen, Look Michelle was the person I
wanted to be. She's literally thezillennial woman's career idol. My
(01:20):
other co host, Sophhirst, is an ex Google marketing manager
and she's the founder of work Baby. It's a career
coaching program for people in their early career era like myself.
Mission sof have been bosses, managers, employees, and employers, and
the way this show is going to work is that
they're going to share all of their knowledge with tired
career girlies like myself. First start being how to ask
(01:43):
for more money?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
How much money can I realistically ask for? I don't
know what's reasonable and what's considered a promotion. Now, I
do you where to start?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I swear all my male friends have no problem asking,
but I just feel so embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I just don't know what to say.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I think I once went in and said, maybe look
at I don't know, like maybe a like pay rise
in six months, and my boss said yeah, sure, and
then never spoke of it again.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
It's so ikey talking about money. I remember going into
a pay rise meeting. I had all my ducks in
a row.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I knew everything I was going to say, and the
moment I got in there and stirred down the barrel
at my boss, I got so nervous and completely froze.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And we didn't even get to that part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Talking about pay rises is about as comfortable as when
you have to call in sick when everyone saw you
taking three tequila shots. I'd worked drinks to night before.
But luckily Beier's career coaches, Michelle and Sof are going
to share exactly what the expert secrets are on how
to nail that conversation. So let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
So, salary is kind of a weird thing to talk
about work. I actually think it's very awkward to talk
about money with your coworkers, and there's a lot of
bad advice doing the rounds on social media about how
to actually ask. So we're gonna some paarise myths and
I answer your big questions about asking your big boss
for more cash. Michelle, you worked in HR, so I
(03:07):
imagine you've been behind the scenes at quite a few
pairise conversations.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, I feel like I've seen the good, the bad,
and the ugly. I once saw someone get a six
figure pay rise off the back of going and getting
a job offer from another company, So we can talk
about if that's do or I don't.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
And I've also seen people get a.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Bit emotional, get a little aggressive, maybe bring a pay
rise up as a condition or an ultimatum, which is
not the best way to go about it, as it
can move away from the facts and be counterproductive to
the argument.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I think it can get very personal. Something I feel
love doing with my clients is you do this sort
of mental flip so instead of they're sitting there thinking
why do I want a pair rise? Why should I
get a pay rise? Try to imagine yourself as your
boss and think why should I give Michelle a pay rise?
Why would I want to get Michelle a pay rise?
Want to frame it all as the kind of value
and the benefit to the company. If you're thinking about
(04:04):
why a company would want to give you a pay rise,
it's really about a lot of the time retaining good talent.
It's really expensive to hire new talent, and they really
do want to retain good talent. So this EPP is
all about helping you prove that you're good talent.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Okay, So let's bust some of those myths. I went
out on my socials and I asked people what do
you want to know about pay rises? And I got
a ton of questions back, so let's get into it.
Probably one of the most common was when should I ask?
And should I be asking?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Every year?
Speaker 4 (04:52):
So, if I'm very keen for your take on this,
do you think it's okay to ask for a pay
rise every year?
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:58):
If you are on TikTok, everyone says, yes, you should
be asking every year. So first of all, I think
there's a lot of variation in terms of how companies
approach pay rises. So first find out what the deal
is at your company. At smaller companies, they probably don't
have much process and your manager is probably the person
that's going to approve it. At bigger companies, there's probably
a very formal process. You know Google it was very
(05:19):
formal and transparent, and the person you are actually asking
your manager is probably several levels away from the person
who's actually approving it. So first, I think just understand
how the process works at your company. I think it
really helps have mates in HR or in the finance
team to know when budgeting happens and things like that.
But back to the question, so should you ask every year?
(05:40):
I actually really know to this, and I'll tell you why.
I think the ideal situation that you want to get
in is that you've actually created a reason that your
compensation should change. So that's like a change in your scope.
You've got more experience and you're better at your job now,
so you're actually delivering more value to the company, and
you want approve that. I think just having this artificial
time on your head off like every twelve months I'm
(06:01):
gonna ask, isn't really the right approach. And I think
it's more about what's changed and what can you kind
of package up and proof has changed and therefore you
deserve a pay rise.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
I love that because I obviously do spend too much
time on TikTok because my default was yes, I do
think people should be asking for a pay rise every
twelve months. But my perspective is rooted in those people
actually having performed, Like I'm assuming that all those people
are top performers and they are contributing to the organization.
(06:30):
They have evolved, they have developed. So if you're sitting
there wondering if I should be asking for a pay
rise every twelve months, I feel like the answer is yes.
If you are getting shit done and you're moving the
needle in your.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Role, what are you thinking about cost of living and
inflation and if employers should be getting pay rise based
on sort of that changing.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
So I actually think inflation is worth being aware of.
Like that actually is a reason maybe why you could
rationalize asking for a pay rise every year, But you
absolutely should not be bringing up inflation as the reason
why you deserve one, Like just because inflation has.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Occurred does not entitle you to a pay rise.
Speaker 4 (07:08):
And I think if you went into a conversation and
that was your leading argument from an employer perspective, it
comes across as a bit of a weak argument, like
give me your actual tangible results, don't just default to inflation.
But we also need pay rises to ensure we're able
to live, to survive, to pay our rent, to buy
our groceries. So I do think it's a reason why,
(07:29):
like seeking a pay rise every twelve months is like
reasonable from a human perspective, but you still need to
be backing it up with how you improve the company performance.
Otherwise you're just not going to get the pay rise
from your employer in the first place.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I did some research into whether employers actually plan to
give pay rises, so there was a say you were
link in the show notes, but it's said in Australia
ninety six percent of employers plan to give pay rises
in twenty twenty four. A third of that was actually
flat for all staff, percent was inflation, and twenty eight
percent was actually based on performance. So even if your
(08:03):
company is planning to give pay rises, it's still going
to be mostly based on performance, so you need to
sort of prove you're delivering.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Yeah, and if inflation was like two percent or three percent,
for example, you would want more than a two or
a three percent pay rise. So that's another reason why
you wouldn't really want inflation to be the basis of
your argument. But it's more just a personal reason I think.
I think if you're unsure if you're even paid a
fair rate, a really good place to start is to
go to a website like Hayes or Hudson and look
(08:34):
at market data that will give you an indication of
what people in similar roles to you in your city
are being paid. And I think that's a very good
start if you're just going in completely blind. Back to
my point earlier around if getting offers from other companies
is a good way to get a pay rise or not,
(08:55):
I actually do think interviewing at other jobs is also
a very good way to get a red on what
you might be paid out there in the market. But
I do think if you are then going to use
an offer to try and get a pay rise in
a job you're already in, you definitely need to be willing.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
To walk away.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
So if you're interviewing somewhere else, you have to be
down to take that role, because you might not always
bring that offer to your employer and they might not
match it, they might say no, worries see you later.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
So you have to be.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Strategic and like intentional about how you go about that.
If that's a process you're going to follow, what do
you think, Yeah, no, I agree, I think it can
be really effective. I think it's massive risk. So the
point that you mentioned before, you have to be willing
to walk away. Another big question is how much should
I actually ask for what's actually going to have an
impact on your life? So, like anything less than five
percent after tax is second out and month and month,
(09:46):
you may not really notice that. And then if you're
getting sort of up to the you know, twenty percent,
that's really a promotion that you're asking for, and that's
a big jump. So I think somewhere in the range
at five to fifteen is probably what people are thinking
about in terms of pay rise, but it's going to
be based on so many different factors. Amazing. Okay, another
question was I feel too uncomfortable asking is it really
(10:08):
worth it?
Speaker 3 (10:08):
What do you think? This is my approach to life.
I think in general, tough conversations are worth it at
work and in life. So you know, a good way
to think of that is that good leaders ask for
what they want and need at work all the time.
So in a way, you doing this is actually a
demonstration of your leadership and you shouldn't feel scared about it.
(10:29):
That said, it does take work and preparation, and if
you go into it without prepping, there is a risk
that you show up as not being able to read
the room, that you don't really have your shit together,
and I think there is a risk to it. And
also it's just like a ton of efforts. So I
think you really want to ask yourself how much am
I asking for? Is there really a case for this,
like have I actually delivered, you know, met expectations, exceeded expectations,
(10:53):
has my role changed? And then I think that that
line around, there's no harm in asking, just ask. I
do think there is a harmon asking if you don't
do the prep and you don't really have a case,
and you haven't read the room. Chaf that into account
and then if all those things are a yes, then
go into it with like, this is you showing leadership
and it's actually going to be an excellent learning experience
for you. Do not be scared, and I think probably
(11:15):
especially women, more of us should be up scared.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
I think that's such a good answer, no notes from me,
and I think it really moves into the next question
very well, which is should I ask if my company
isn't performing about reading the room? I think you can
ask for a pay rise if your company isn't performing,
but you need to be damn sure that you're still
(11:39):
contributing to the company's objectives. And I think when you
approach the conversation, it would be you know, I know
as a business, we haven't reached x Y and Z.
But I've got some ideas about how we can do
that in the next quarter. And here's how I'm going
to move.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
That for you.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
You're showing empathy and compassion, you're aware that the company
isn't quite there, and you're showing up like but I'm
focused on that, and here's how I'm going to improve
that for all of us. Because I think to your point,
if you don't read the room in that kind of environment,
if you don't do that, well, I don't want to
scare people, but it actually could.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Make you a bit of a target. So it's good.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
For everyone to be aware how you contribute to the
business consistently.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I also think it's a long game as well. Sometimes
you have to play. So maybe you're gonna ask and
then they're going to say no, and then six months
later you sort of want to say to them, well,
if it's a no, now what would it look like,
what to take for it to be a yes? And
sort of start planning me seede, but yeah, working on
it with your manager together. There's sort of no hum
in asking knowing that it might you know, but it
might be yes later. Cool.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
So that's your big questions answered now you're probably thinking, so,
how the hell do I actually ask?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
That's on the way next, So how do you actually
ask for a pay rise? Remember your mindset, get inside
your boss's head. Frame it in terms of the value
(13:07):
you're actually bringing for the company. Don't make it about
you and your personal financial situation. For example, don't mention
the saving for a house deposit or you know, mentioned
cost of living. We're going to make it all about
the company and the value you're delivering. Don't be scared.
You have the right to ask, and it is showing
good leadership. Okay, Michelle, you are an HI expert. Tell
(13:29):
us how people can think about framing their value.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
This is a very simple framework. Or you can think
about it just like three prompts, and this is what
you're going to sit down at your desk and think
about before you go into these conversations. And the prompts
are experience, role, and output. So when you think about
your experience, you're obviously thinking about how many years you've
been doing the job. What unique insights do you also
(13:54):
bring based on that experience. But I think when it
comes to advocating for a pay rise, when you've been
at the company for a few years. For example, it's
how has your experience grown? Have you done courses leadership?
Have you been on training camps, have you, you know,
gone to conferences around the world, whatever it is, you're
really thinking about how you've grown your skill set and
(14:16):
your knowledge.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I love that. So it's not just experience in terms
of I've been here, you know, two years, it's actually,
how have you invested in improving your experience and the
experience that you have in doing that role is like
expertise exactly.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
And I know we'll get to this, but that's also
something that you can also be asking for in these
performance conversations, like I want to do a training course
on X, I want to do this online course. Really
simple things people can do that I just think make
them sound and seem a bit smarter. Is got a
bit bored over the break? Did these three online Harvard courses?
You know, They're just really easy little wins that just
(14:51):
make you seem like you care.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
The second thing is role.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
So how has your role evolved? Did someone go and
leave and you took on responsibilities? Are you managing more people?
Are you actually doing three jobs? Is your job moving
well beyond what the original job description was those are
things that you can use to advocate for a pay rise.
(15:15):
The biggest and most important one though, is obviously your output.
And this really needs to be evidence and fact based,
so numbers relating to your KPIs, but always bringing it
back to the company's objectives as well, and as we've discussed,
really leading with what the business is trying to achieve
(15:37):
and then how you as an individual have helped them
get there. So if you have an epic hack for this,
because you can also find yourself approaching these conversations, especially
if they only happen once a year in your business
and you've now forgotten half the things that you've done
throughout the year.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I always hated this so much. It's like summarize twelve
months of your work into six bullet points, and I
you know, you never know what you're gonna do. So
the best hack that I found to doing this is
actually just too every time that you have an example
of good work, and that might be results metrics, it
might be something a client has said about you, it
(16:14):
might be something a cowork has said about you, and
slack anything that is like you do a good work,
you're going to screenshot that and just throw it in
a folder on your desktop. I try and save like
a couple of week And what you're gonna find is
when you go through that, you're just gonna jog your
memory and gonna have all these great examples. So that's
the fastest hack I found.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
The other thing people really struggle with is how do
you actually articulate your value and kind of summarize it
into a nice, neat little bullet point that sounds professional
and human whatever.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I think it was a really good question that you
had from someone right around this.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Yes, another question that people kept coming through with was
how to articulate your value if you've contributed via a
lot of soft skills. So this could be things like
critical thinking, communication, in fluid les, leadership. And I think
this is important because how you get shit done matters.
Like I like to think about it, like, soft skills
(17:08):
achieve hard outcomes, you know, So don't think just because
you bring softer skills to the table that you still
can't articulate that into a tangible bullet point.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
So so please tell us how to do that. We
actually just took the words out of my mouth. Yeah,
that's the thing, Like, it's the soft skills that mean
the company can actually do stuff that leads to the hardship.
So yeah, I wanted to give people away that they
can actually think about articulating their soft skills. First of all,
this is what a lot of people miss. You want
to give context to the points that you're actually sharing.
(17:40):
So it's not just about data points and stats. It's
actually give context. Why was it great or why was
it hard? So some examples would be, you know, was
it the first time that you did something like this,
Were there lots of different teams that had to come
together for the first time, was there a really tight
turnaround time on this, or you're dealing with tons of
different roadblocks and delays. You want to try and building context,
(18:01):
and then the main thing is to link that skill
to the actual impact and the results. So there's a
really great sentence you can use, and we're going to
put this in the newsletter. You want to say, I
demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that, and then
you put the impact. So I'm going to give you,
guys an example demonstrated leadership by bringing together stakeholders from
(18:23):
four different teams who have never worked together before to
collaborate on a project for the first time, which meant that.
So I think you can actually use context and then
link it to something that actually has impact and a
result attached to it.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
I love that so much. Honestly, I feel like this
will be so helpful for people. I'm sitting here thinking
I wish I could have soaf in an earpiece as
I do these conversations, but we're actually doing none.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
This is it.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
I think we've made it super clear. So when you're
going into these conversations, focus on the company. I know
as a company we've been working towards X, Y and
z A. Here's how I've contributed to that in my role.
And then use your structure. So what were your three keywords?
Can you repeat them for me?
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that result?
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Skill what which meant that result?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Love it?
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Okay, So what happens if they say no, slash we
don't have the budget right now?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah, which probably will happen right Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
I think in this situation it's like I wouldn't take
no as meaning no full stop. It just means not
right now. This is an opportunity to continue the conversation
and as you said, play the long game. And I
also think you can ask for different things in the
meantime that aren't just monetary right totally.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
So one of my favorite things to do is actually,
if you get a no, then think about asking for
non financial pay rise. So that might be something like
there's this specific course that I really want to do.
It might be I really want this opportunity to work
on a specific project, or like a really cool mentoring opportunity.
You might want to travel a little bit more, so
maybe it's like, you know, can I take you to Melbourne?
(20:03):
Whatever it is you want to be asking and think
about non financial incentives as well. The interesting thing about
asking for non financial incentives or like a non financial
pay rise. If you think about like say you get
a pay rise and it's two thousand dollars and then
tax comes out of it, it's actually not that much
in the end. But there's this quote from Warren Buffett,
who's one of the most famous investors in the world,
(20:25):
and he actually says, by far, the best investment you
can make is in yourself. And so you might actually
be better taking that two grand and investing that in
your own skills and your own self instead of just
thinking about getting the cash.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Okay, so we're all about concrete action points here it biz,
So so what are they?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
So? One, do your research, understand how your company runs
the promotion and pay rise system, and know the market
rates for your role and your industry. Two is start
planning early, so talk about what is expected to be
in your role with your make sure you understand the
big company priorities, style your winds folder, and you know,
(21:05):
consider giving your manager heads up like this is something
that I actually want to work towards. And then three,
make it about them, not you. So this is about
the value that you delivered. Grab Michelle's experience role output
framework in the newsletter and that will have you totally
sort it.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Okay, So listening to Michelle and so you guys, I've
been doing this all wrong. I didn't realize that I
shouldn't just walk into my boss's office and beg for
money just like Oliver Twist style. If you don't implement
a strategy, not only is your manager going to say
no to you, but you'd probably also give them the egg,
which I know we all know is way worse. So
(21:49):
here's what I'm actually going to do, and you should too,
if you want more money but you hate those awkward conversations.
So first, I'm going to start keeping a track of
all of the good stuff I do at work. Because
I didn't realized my boss wasn't psychic and didn't know
I've been staying back late nearly every day this past week.
I mean, it's kind of rude, but it's understandable. Then
I'm going to go straight to Hayes dot com dot
(22:10):
au to figure out what I should actually be earning.
And finally, I'm going to practice saying I deserve more
money in the mirror, and I'm going to try to
do it without cringing, because apparently asking for what you
want is leadership. It's not being annoying, which is so
great to know. Thank you so much for listening to
our first episode of Bids and Look. We want to
(22:31):
tell you that we are here to help. Well, Michelle
and Sofa here to help.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Do not worry.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
I will not try to help you myself. Think of
them as your new work mentors. They're ready to answer
your actual work question. So make sure you sign up
to our newsletter to get all the support you need.
Plus our biz Inbox episodes drop later in the week
where we answer all of your questions and the biggest
work issues that are trending on TikTok. See you next time.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of BIZ.
If you'd like to hear more episodes of BIZ, make
sure to follow or subscribe to the show in your
podcast app. There'll be a link in the show notes.
And in the meantime, I hope you're seizing your yay
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