July 23, 2025 • 45 mins
Over our seven years so far of seizing the yay, I’ve found myself repeatedly blown away by some of the rooms it has led me into and some of the incredible people I’ve been lucky to meet. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine one of those rooms would be a SCIF at the headquarters of our national security service, ASIO, or that one of those people would be a real life spy.
For the uninitiated, a SCIF is a Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility and if you’ve followed me for even the briefest of time it won’t surprise you that I’m already familiar with all the acronyms. ALL of the content I consume involves espionage or secret operations, so you will understand why I consider this week’s episode a career and life highlight and this week’s guest a very favourite.
I am able to share that our guest is a current Senior Intelligence Officer and she has been permitted to shed some light on the incredible work she does... but her exact title, name and real voice remain obfuscated for reasons, and I can’t believe I get to say this, of national security. In fact, the identity of every individual who works at ASIO is a secret except for the Director General and the three Deputy Directors-General.
As we discuss, the very definition of ASIO’s success is preventing anything for us to know about and revealing exactly how they do that to any of us would also reveal it to potential enemies (so if you get frustrated at what our guest can’t share, know it’s for extremely good reason). While you may have ideas about spycraft from Hollywood and agencies like the CIA or MI6, there still isn’t much out there about our homegrown spies, which makes it even more exciting to get this incredibly rare insight into what life is like on the inside.
I’ll also add there are a few instances where our speech may seem chopped or edits may seem messy, but you’ll of course understand that you can never know why. I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't look like a stereotypical spy. I can move
through our room completely unnoticed. I can do things that
people would not expect of me because they will underestimate me.
They will not think that of me. Some things in
the movies we see and go, absolutely we do that.
Are we ever going to admit it?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
No?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
There is absolutely no high like stopping a spy, stopping
a terrorist attack.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to the Sees the YA Podcast. Busy and happy
are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
one way. So this is a platform to hear and
explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore
the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
(00:45):
will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
fuentrepreneurs WP the Suits and Heels to co Found, matcha
Maiden and matcham Milk Bark CZA is a series of
conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the
self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Over
(01:10):
our seven years so far of seizing the A, I
found myself repeatedly blown away by some of the rooms
that's led me into and some of the incredible people
that I've been so lucky to meet. But never in
my wildest dreams did I imagine that one of those
rooms would be a skiff at the headquarters of our
National Security Service AZO, or that one of those people
(01:31):
would be a real life spy. For the uninitiated, a
skiff is a sensitive compartmented information facility, and if you
followed me for even the briefest of time, it won't
surprise you one bit that I'm already familiar with all
the acronyms. Pretty much all of the content that I
consume as part of my personal platia does involve espionage
or secret operations. And you might have even heard me
(01:53):
say that I once thought my law and Languages degree
would lead me into a career in intelligence myself. So
you'll understand and why I consider this week's episode to
be an absolute career and life highlight, and this week's
guest to be a very favorite. I am able to
share that our guest is a current senior intelligence officer
at AZO, and she has been permitted to shed some
(02:13):
light on the incredible work that she does, but her
exact title, her name, and her real voice remain obfuscated
for and I cannot believe I actually get to say
this in a real life context reasons of national security.
In fact, the identity of every individual who works at
AZO is a secret except for the Director General and
the three deputy Directors General, and our intelligence landscape generally
(02:37):
has long been shrouded in secrecy. As we discuss, the
very definition of AZIO success is preventing anything for us
to know about, and revealing exactly how they do that
to any of us would also reveal it to potential enemies.
So if you do get frustrated at what our guests
can't share, know that it's for extremely good reason. While
you may have ideas about spycraft from Holly Would and
(03:00):
agencies like the CIA or MI six, there still isn't
much out there about our homegrown spies, which makes it
even more exciting to get this incredibly rare insight into
what life is like on the inside. If I disappear
after this episode, it's because I have gone to live
out my intelligence dreams. It literally sounds like the coolest
job ever. I'll also add there are a few instances
(03:23):
where our speech may seem a bit chopped or edits
might seem messy. Plus we did end up having to
add a few beeps to the very final draft. But you'll,
of course understand that you can never know why. I
hope you enjoy this one as much as I did.
Anonymous guest number one, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So exciting to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh, it's so exciting for me to be here. Since
i'mlike usual, I've had the great privilege of coming to
you to record from inside AZO headquarters today.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
You're so welcome. It's wonderful to have you here.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I still can't quite believe it now. I haven't done
the research I normally would, because of course, this is
the first time had someone on without knowing their name.
But I have spent my lifetime preparing the questions i'd
ask if I ever did get the chance. As I mentioned,
I'm obsessed with the world at espionage. So to start,
I know you can't share your exact title, but can
(04:14):
you share with us what you are permitted to about
your role at ASIO? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Absolutely so. I am a senior intelligence officer for ASIO,
ORSO the Australia Security Intelligence Organization. So that means that
I've had a career of catching spies and stopping terrorists,
which is one of the best careers you could ever
hope to have.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Well, that's already one of the coolest things I think
I've ever heard, and I can't like to get more
into what that actually means, including the day to day,
because I think one thing we love on this show
is going beyond people's titles to what their life actually
ends up looking like. But I'd love to start back
at the beginning with how you actually became an ASIO
intelligence officer, because I think we often skip past the
(04:55):
journey to get to where we are today when we
tell our story. Not that you can tell yours very often,
but it's all the steps along the way that makes
your pathway feel possible to any other aspiring spies out
there who might be listening. So let's go back to
your childhood, what you thought you'd be and if this
was ever on the cart.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
So I can safely say that a career in intelligence
or at ASIO was so far beyond my expectations as
a kid growing up in regional I didn't even know
that ASIO existed, and that's probably a good thing that
it was the furthest thing from my mind, because it
just shows what a wonderful society we do live in,
and it's relatively safe, and we're so privileged to live here.
(05:35):
So my parents worked as an in pat so for
me seeing them work and really take pride in what
they do and seeing their friends also do the same,
I really saw myself following them into a career like that.
There's a lot there about public service and taking pride
in what you do and investing in the community. I'm
(05:56):
really proud to say I came from a family and
community like that, and then I went to UNI and
throughout high school I had a load of different part
time jobs, and when I look back now, they all
really helped me get to where I am today. I
love that working in retail, fast food, working in customer service,
they give you all the skills that you really need here,
(06:16):
so being quick thinkers, being proactive, being critical thinkers, being
able to speak to so many different people from so
many walks of life. Anyone that's worked as a waitress
at a big event. If you can't be a quick thinker,
and read the room exactly. So all those skills really
really helped.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I love that, And so often when we trace through
these steps, the dots don't always connect. Going forwards, you
don't always know where you'll end up at the time,
But then later, looking back, you can see how the
things you've done shaped you and led you to the
job you end up in. Plus, the world is changing
so fast that the job many of us end up
in might not even exist yet, or for you, you
(06:53):
didn't even know that Azio existed, So you really do
never know where you'll end up. And that brings me
to I was reading the Director General's latest annual Threat Assessment,
which we will refer back to quite a few times
in this episode, and he said, there is no one
Azeo type, just a team player who thinks critically and
(07:13):
wants to make a difference. That's so true. But then
how do you go from regional into a senior intelligence
officer position? Like? What was that process? What qualifications do
you need?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Is it through a career is fair?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I think I mentioned off a back when I was
a lawyer, back in the day, I did meet with
Asio at a career's fair, so very much thought I
could end up somewhere like this. You know, I want
to believe it's someone taps you on the shoulder and
that there are dead drops and code.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I love that we've all seen the movies, but I
can safely say that the pathway that you see in
a lot of the movies where there's a certain type
of person that's gone to a certain type of university
or gone to a certain type of school, and then
suddenly there's a professor that taps them on the shoulder
and says, hey, you're invited to this private session.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Oh, it doesn't happen like that, But I think that's
a really.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Good thing because as needs to protect and so represent
the community that we protect, and we take that really seriously.
So thinking about the vast array of roles and skills
that we need in the organization. We need a vast
array of people here with different sets of skills. We
need the technologists, we need the lawyers, we need the psychologists,
and even within my job family, the intelligence stream, we
(08:20):
need a huge array of skill sets and people so
that we get that diversity of thought to get the
best outcomes that we need for Australia. When I think
back to my first day when I was here many
years ago, and when I think back to who my
cohort were, we're coming in different cohorts. I was definitely
straight out of UNI, but I also had friends that
were previous school teachers, lawyers, psychologists, tradees.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Like.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
We had a huge variety in who we had coming
in with us.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
That's so cool. I read that the Director General actually
began as an electrical engineer, So I love the idea
that anyone could end up climbing the ranks at AZO.
Are you allowed to share what you studied?
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I warn't that different and machinations of it. It'd be
more easy to identify who I am. Yeah, there's no
one degree people need to take or pathway at university
to take to get in, and some roles in ASIO,
you don't need a university degree. Certainly worked alongside people
who come in through a particular job stream and then
they go through university while they're here. They are incredibly
(09:19):
hard working and do that part time in their downtime.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Okay, so you might not be able to share how
ASIO would give someone a tap on the shoulder if
they were headhunting you. I'm still going to believe that
it's code and dead drops, But of course you can
also put yourself forward and apply which one were you?
How did you get your job?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
So my story is very unique. I had a totally
different career path that outlined in my mind based on
what my degree was and where I thought I wanted
to go in my life. And I have always really
valued that hard work that we talked about before, and
I'm a big believer in whatever you do, you need
to do it well. And so this is terrible. But
when I applied for ASIO, I actually used this organization
(09:59):
to gauge how with my application was, which is ridiculous.
But when I applied, I had another really bespoke career
in mind, and so I thought, who are some of
the best, Who are some of the brightest, who are
some of the most excellent in Australia? And I thought, well,
it's the spooks. It's the ones that keep Australia safe.
So if I put my application into them and I
(10:19):
see where I get knocked out, because you won't ever
get told if you don't progress. If I just use
them and I'll figure out where my application stacks up.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Oh you mean for the other career path. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I just kept getting through, and so for Asio, I
would come along and I would have the best time.
I would meet these amazing people and I would just
be so energized every step that I got through, and
with every step I walked away and went okay bye.
I just kept getting through. And then I got the
job offer, and I thought, oh my goodness, this is
so exciting, so amazing, and I was really really excited,
(10:56):
and I thought, I'm still not one of them. I
am a country from I am not the thought that
they are looking for. And so I thought, I'll give
it a year.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
After a year, and then they'll find me out.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
They'll find me out the imposter syndrome, for sure. And
so I thought, I'll give it a year, see how
I go. And then so many years later, I'm still
here and I love it every single day, and the
people that I work alongside and the mission that we
have has just kept me bouncing out of bed every
day and coming in.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Oh my god, I've got goose bumps. I mean, I
am for personal reasons, but also because it's just such
a repeated theme of people's path yea's as I like
to call them, and that's like the crazy sliding doors moment.
Absolutely that leads you to a place that but for
you just randomly putting in your application, you might not
have ended up here. And also so for anyone listening.
(11:44):
I mean, if you're sitting on an idea, just do it,
absolutely do it. It's not the long, calculated game that often
leads you to the ultimate goal. It's the goals you
didn't know you had and you had no idea.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And I often think what my life would look like, Yes,
the experiences that I wouldn't have had, the friends I
haven't made, the colleagues who are just so phenomenal that
I wouldn't have been up to work beside, and I
just feel sorry for that version of myself that didn't
wind up here. I'm so lucky to be here.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Well, Australia is lucky to have you, and that you
did make it through all those interview rounds. For anyone listening,
it makes sense why we can't share more about specifically
what those interview rounds involved. So I was not to
give anyone a heads up, but I guess the point
here is that anyone can apply for AZO if you're interested.
You don't have to wait for that tap on the shoulder,
which I think is just so cool.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
You can absolutely apply. Yeah, our amazing team gets a
lot of media out there in our recruitment drive, So
for anyone wanting to join the intelligence stream, there is
a lot of information out there. Head to our website
and you'll see it there.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Amazing. Okay, so we're all dying to know about what
you do and find out how much you're allowed to
tell us. But I think it does make sense too
quickly for those who don't know much about AZIO as
an organization, So for the uninitiated, to give them a
bit of an outline. First, of course, it's a secret
organization by nature, and before the current Director General, who's
a bit more open, there really wasn't much.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Shed at all about it.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
A lot of Australians don't know it exists, and a
lot of what we think we know is based on
overseas all the movies, whereas our Australian intelligence community, the AIC,
of course, has its own differences in structure. So can
you take us through the background of emerging in a
post Cold War environment so very much focused on bringing
down Soviet infiltrators. I mean, there are some really cool stories,
(13:27):
but then adapting through modern terrorism and now to kind
of the current state of affairs.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So you're luckily aware. But for anyone listening, azio's Australia's
security service and we protect Australia and Australians from threats
to security. So we want to keep everyone safe. And
our role within the National Intelligence community is really quite
unique because we collect, we investigate, we assess, and we disrupt.
So we have lots of different distinct functions and we
do them all incredibly well. So we collect, investigate, and
(13:56):
assess to provide advice to government and industry, so we
want them to know whatever we can tell them so
they can make the best decisions to keep Australia safe.
We also collect and use intelligence to disrupt spies and terrorists.
So the jobs that we're best known for are those
by jobs, so the intelligence analysts and intelligence officers, surveillance
officers and our tech experts. But like I said, there's
(14:17):
lots of jobs that you wouldn't initially think about in
relation to AZIO, like in finance, in legal, in hr, communications, design,
linguists and heaps of other areas across the organization that
we need and I think That's what I really love
about this organization. You can have so many different jobs
within the one organization, even just within the intelligence stream
(14:37):
that I'm a part of. I've had so many more
jobs and roles in AZIO than I ever had part
time jobs as a UNI student.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I love that. I will always keep learning and I
will absolutely never be bored. I hate being bored, so
I will never ever be bored in this organization.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Oh, I mean, how could you also just as an
aside for our listeners, as I had a few questions
about this when I posted a teaser. There are nine
other organizations alongside AZEO in our Australian intelligence community. You
might have also heard of ASIS, which is our overseas
intelligence collection organization, along with several other acronyms, but we
need a full series to cover those, so definitely look
(15:12):
them up and also look up the full history of
AZIO as there are some really cool spy stories that
are now declassified, like the Petrov affair, where AZIO facilitated
the defection of a KGB spy masquerading as a diplomat
in the Soviet embassy in Canberra, which seems unfathomable to
the average Australian that this actually happens back home. But
(15:33):
I guess the reason we don't hear much about what
is happening back home because you don't hear about things
that are prevented. And the definition of your success is
that regular Australians don't know much.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
About what you do.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
But of course we here today to find out as
much as we are allowed to know about what you do.
So now to the juicy stuff. What can you share
with us about what you do? Like I said, it's
hard to imagine that there is stuff like this and
espionage happening, but it has been confirmed by the Director
General that there are spies are pready in Australia, that
(16:07):
countries are constantly trying to find out about our military capabilities,
and that there are three known countries trying to harm
people living in Australia. So what can you share with us?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So I would love to tell you about all of
the cool missions that we have done, because we do
them every day. One of the trickiest things I suppose
for the Australian public is that the more audacious our success,
the less we can share that with anybody. Because like
any sporting team, or like any recipe that you want
to protect, it's only good if you don't share it
(16:41):
too broadly. Yeah, of course we need to deliver what
our adversaries think are impossible. Yes, we need to do
the impossible every day, so that our adversaries, the people
that want to kill Australians, the people that want to
erode the fabric of our democratic society, aren't suspecting that
we're there, or that we're collecting against them, or that
we're positioning ourselves to be able to stop them. So
(17:03):
I have had so many pinch me moments in this
career where I have looked across at the intelligence officer
sitting beside me, and our eyes just lock and we
both know that what we're thinking, and then we're back
in the game. Ah. That is so cool for us
not being able to speak about it is both one
of the most important things that we can do in
(17:23):
this job, but also recognizing that we know what we're doing.
We know that we're keeping Australian safe, and the colleagues
that work alongside me and some of our closest friends
and family know that we're working towards something really important.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It still blows my mind that I'm sitting across from
someone who catches spies for living. But I guess, of
course it makes sense that the exact methods that you
used to do that can never be shared publicly because
then they be rendered totally ineffective. But the Director General
has made public some more general threats that you know,
the organization and Australia is facing and that you guys
(17:57):
would be working on. Plus, I think the topetality of
most Australians understanding of spies and intelligence officers is more
from the movies. So in a more generalized sense, can
you sort of tell us what are those general threats
that you're facing? Does any of that resemble what we
would see in films? Are you dealing with individual espionage?
(18:19):
Are you out on the streets, are you kind of
traveling overseas? Like? What are you doing on a more
general level?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So I love the spy movies and spy dramas, as
I said before, and I think their an incredible form
of entertainment, and some things are really true in them
and some things are way off. They give me a
really good laugh. Anyway, I think it's important for you'd
know this already, Sarah, but for anyone listening to know
that AZIO is Australia's security service. That means that we
are not just based here in Australia or work just
(18:47):
here in Australia. We protect Australians wherever they are across
the globe. So in terms of what you said, like
spy movies and dramas, people working overseas and things, if
we need to, we will go to where we need
to protect Australian from a particular threat. And anyone who
does want to listen to the DG's threat assessment, they'll
hear that at the moment we've got two really huge
(19:08):
security concerns upon us around foreign interference and espionage and terrorism.
For us, it is very much a matter of thinking
about everything everywhere all at once. Where it's an incredible
movie as well, but it really strikes home for us
at the moment where we have people wanting to exert
violence against Australians wherever they happen to be and targeting
(19:29):
them because of the amazing life that we have here
in Australia or belief systems that people have got. And
in terms of espionage, people wanting to steal our government secrets.
So that they can do Australia harm. And of course,
like you said with the petroots, that's not something that
is new. It goes back almost as old as time itself,
is the role of espionage or the conduct of espionage.
(19:51):
But it's a very real threat that we see here today.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It's crazy to think how often the everyday Australian could
be standing somewhere where a terrorist, a or some kind
of threat to security was foiled just the day before
thanks to someone like you guys in the Shadows, without
us having any idea that that happened. Absolutely, another really
cool thing that we walked past on the way in,
and it's been publicized before, I think in the seven
(20:14):
thirty reports, so it's not a secret. But there's a
wall dedicated to Azio's history and a museum dedicated to
artifacts and real devices used inspire operations. So there's a
camera hidden inside an Agatha Christie book. I think there's
a camera on display that I know I'm pushing the
TV thing, but that was actually used in a James
Bond movie that Azio had used in real life. So
(20:36):
there is sometimes an intersection between the movies and what
happens in real life. K. Marshall had used invisible inc
at one point, and this might sound like the olden
days to you, but of course you can't reveal specifics.
But are there any any times that you know the
technology is reflected in TV or you know, are you
guys using devices and tools in your tradecraft?
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Absolutely, we will use any tool that we can because
a lot of the time we want to blend in
with what the world around.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Us looks like.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That's one of the key things for me thinking about
how I wound up here. There's no way that a
person from rural would see themselves when I was first
applying in having a role here. But I can move
through a room completely unnoticed. I can do things that
people would not expect of me because they will underestimate me.
(21:25):
They will not think that of me. I don't look
like a stereotypical spy. And so for us, the tools
that we use or the mo that we employ is
all as normal as possible so that it can blend
in and not be noticed. And so I think some
things in the movies we see and go absolutely we
do that. Are we ever going to admit it? No?
(21:45):
But if we can blend in and not be suspected
or detected, then that's a win.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Okay, you why definitely the coolest person I've ever spoken to.
Perhaps another reference point for some of our listeners or
for the average Australian could also be situations emergencies that
we have faced in Australia that we would have heard
about in the news that ASIO has responded to, or
that your team has responded to without giving specifics, but
(22:11):
to give us some context about the kinds of situations
you would be working on.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Of course, so this one's going back a little way,
but people might remember the horrible link cafe. See I
was working of of course, I was at work that
day and we were meeting with some of our partners
and we were in a room. It was quite a
large meeting and we're all interrupted and my team and
I were the responding team for that particular incident because
(22:36):
we worked on that particular area. So we were interrupted.
We were told we all needed to leave, So we
kind of left in this frenzy of leaving our visitors
there saying sorry, someone will come to collect to you shortly,
and we came out to see what was happening on
the news, and it was just of course, horrendous and
so tragic. We had to respond in terms of finding
out who the individual was, finding as much information as
(22:57):
we could. The whole team really spoiled up, and when
that happens, you get goosebumps just seeing people dive into
as much of the information holdings as we've got, trying
to collect as much as we possibly can, because our
overall goal in any response like that is to share
as much as we possibly can with our police, law
enforcement and other partners so that they can actually have
that on the ground response. So that day we worked
(23:19):
through and tell the horrible resolution that it was until
two am, and part of the information that was provided
through on those days came from us to be able
to support that response.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
It's just crazy to think that you were actually working
on that. Is there anything internationally that we would have
seen in the news that had a similar kind of
cascading effect or that your team were working on. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So I think sticking with the terrorism theme because I
worked a lot of my career against in the counter
terrorism area. The Iceol Caliphate, which was established around and
existed around twenty fifteen. We saw a lot of young
Australians trying to travel offshore to join I still and
join other prescribed terrorist organizations for whatever reason at the time,
(24:04):
and so our effort was both against identifying individuals like
that and where we could, working as part of the
broader government effort to prevent them from traveling using different
tools available to us and legislative means. And that really
saw a number of young Australians here prevented from traveling
to join the Caliphate, to join the fight. Kind of
we stopped them doing what they actually wanted to do,
(24:24):
which unfortunately saw them start to focus on what they
might want to and could do here in Australia. So
whilst we were an amazing member of the international community
keeping those threats at home, that in itself created a
lot of work for ourselves and our law enforcement partners
to make sure that if and when they were prevented
from traveling, they weren't then successful in conducting an attack
(24:46):
here in Australia.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
That's such another fascinating part of what you guys do
is how much you are operating with national security, but
how much that bleeds into cross border staff and working
with international partners domestic partners, and it's.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Such a web.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think it sounds like, and.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
It makes us so much stronger. Our partnerships are a
gift and we're so grateful for the international and domestic
partners that we work alongside, and we have incredibly strong
relationships with so many of them, and Australia is safer
because of their efforts as well.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
What about any situations that you can share. I think
a few have been declassified of where you prevented something
from happening that was a plot. I mean, as we mentioned,
most of the time that will never see the light
of day. But I think you know a couple have
been shared publicly recently.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, So, one from the Director General's most recent threat
assessment was around an individual online who was seeking to
conduct a school shooting. The individual, we understand had actually
taken tangible steps to conduct that and the information that
AZO found and shared with our partners actually kept a
bunch of kids safe and made them and made sure
(25:55):
that they were still alive the next day, and blissfully
unaware that that was that horrible thing were going to
happen to them. So really tangible impacts like.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
That, Oh, I mean, how lucky we are to all
be so blissfully unaware but while you're taking care of
the safety of the nation, what about your own safety.
That's what keeps coming to mind for me. And there
were two examples in the threat assessment that I really
found fascinating and wanted to ask you about. One was
government personnel being given gifts by international counterparts, which you
(26:23):
would imagine is a normal part of having international relations,
but the presence contained concealed surveillance devices, which it does
sound like the movies. And then another one was a
foreign intelligence service wanting to silence an Australian based human
rights activist, and there was a scheme to trick them
into visiting a third country where plotters would be waiting
(26:44):
for them, and they'd plan to arrange an accident where
they would either be seriously injured or killed, and Azio
foiled that plot. So that just makes me think, like,
you're subject to a lot of danger. Do you ever
get scared? Like, are you worried yourself in your job?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I think because of the huge support structure we've got
here and the training that we've got we go through.
When you're recruited as an intelligence officer, particularly, you go
through a rigorous twelve month training program. Then if you
want to, you can go through further training to become
an intelligence officer. So you've already got a really solid
foundation of training behind you to bring out all of
(27:22):
those skills and tradecraft requirements that you really need. In addition,
ASIO is a team sport. One of the things that
gets me about the movies that we see it's always
one person, but for me, that one individual represents a
team of people who are all bringing about a similar
operation or something like that that they couldn't just do
by themselves. And within that particular operation, there's a whole
(27:45):
structure of people back in headquarters or wherever they happen
to be supporting it as well or putting in all
the enablers that they need to bring that operation about again,
so that we can bring about the impossible or make
it look like we have done something that our adversaries
just expect us to do. So whilst some of our
work is not without risk, we take measured risks and
(28:06):
we invest where we think there's going to be sufficient
enough reward. We really rely on the training, the support,
and of course health and safety and making sure our
people are always safe is paramount here. So yeah, no,
not felt unsafe, certainly exhilarated by some of the jobs
I've done. Well, you sound incredibly brave to me. But
you mentioned your training, and I imagine that would be
(28:28):
very rigorous because you are putting yourself on the line physically, mentally, emotionally.
I'm guessing that's a huge psychological component to it. But again,
the reference point for most of us is the farm.
It's the CIA training. So as much as you can
share what is it actually like for you guys, it
will really depend on what job. Of course, I can
(28:49):
talk about the intelligence streams, So the new recruits begin
with the Intelligence Development Program or we call it the IDP,
So that's the twelve months training program that qualifies you
to become an intelligence analyst and work as an intelligence
analyst is so you have a lot of responsibility, but
you are at the center of everything. You are driving
the investigations, you are tasking the collectors. You are the
(29:10):
hub in the hub and spoke model. So it's an
incredible career pathway in and of itself. Then if people
want to, they can elect to do some further training,
which is again very rigorous. It goes for about six
months plus some additional on the end, and that's to
become an intelligence officer, and that's where you can work
in human So that's the collection of human intelligence, and
(29:31):
that's working alongside human sources who become part of Team
Australia to keep Australia safe.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Oh that's so cool. And if you read as many
spy novels as I do, you'll already know terms like
human for human intelligence, seek INT for signals intelligence, there's
many more of them, but human intelligence, I mean it
sounds fascinating, like cultivating assets and getting out on the
ground for intelligence analyst. Would that be more of an
office based position at the start?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Certainly more office based, but I wouldn't say exclusively in
the office. Each of our roles has such a great
amount of variety in them, so there's a lot of
opportunities for travel or engagement with other organizations, or sometimes
you need to go to the place that we're collecting
the information as an analyst to provide that specific subject
matter skill insight. A lot of it is desk based,
(30:17):
for sure. Anyone thinking of applying, you'll spend a lot
of your time at the desk, but it's not like
you're bound to the desk every day.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And then once you do that extra six months, that's
more of a hands on out collecting.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Absolutely engaging with members of the community who in themselves
are heroes in my mind who work with us to
keep Australia so, oh my gosh, that is so cool.
It's a lot of fun. It's a really great line
of work.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Absolutely, But then you can't tell anyone about it, which
is I think the thing that a lot of us
struggle to get our heads around. Under the ASIER legislation,
the identity of every single employee at ASIO is a
secret except for the Director General and sometimes the deputies.
So can you tell your friends and family?
Speaker 1 (30:55):
We are allowed to tell some of our very closest
family members, and that's really important for us.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Actually.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Whilst we have incredible support networks within the organization and
incredible colleagues that you can share with, and incredible support structures,
it's really critical that we can go home to a
trusted person or people and just say I've had a
really tricky day or I've had a great day. You
can't really talk about the specifics of that, but our
friends and family are our most important support structure, and
(31:22):
anyone listening we thank you so much for everything you do.
But having that support just means that we get the
validation that we need sometimes, or just the chance to
hop home and pop in front of the TV and
not have to have to explain it.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's amazing that you have such a good support system
around you. But that whole element of secrecy also brings
up something else we talk about a lot on the show,
and that's the idea of success, our definition of success,
and the metrics we use to measure our life. I
think commonly we spend a long time chasing success, and
that could be financial, whatever that may be, but then
(31:57):
inevitably reach a point in life where we realize full
moment is a much better metric or a much more
satisfying metric. That's so true. But when we are measuring
our success, whatever that means for so many people, a
part of success is being able to share that and
express it and share the wins. And we all have
a LinkedIn page where we sort of celebrate all the
highs and lows. And not only is as you mentioned,
(32:20):
you being an intelligence difficult because you can't share all
the biggest, most exciting things that you're working on, but
also from a success metric, it would be really difficult
to not boast, but you can't be proud of the
things that you're doing. Has that been an adjustment to
people in the organization find it difficult in a culture
where we're all yelling about our achievements that you can't
(32:42):
do that.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
One thing we do well is celebrating success within these walls,
when someone does a phenomenal job, we really call them
out for it and we celebrate them. And if you're
part of a team, there is absolutely no high like
stopping a spy, stopping a terrorist attack, knowing that people
walking the streets of Australia safe around alive because of
what you've stopped happening, what you've done to stop a
(33:07):
horrible thing happening to them, and they're none the wiser.
There's nothing like a team celebration once you've pulled something
like that off. And I think for us, I'm sure
many of your listeners are the quiet overachievers that don't
always go for the recognition, and that's who feel this building.
We look at the colleagues beside us, who we respect
incredibly and go, we did that together, and then we
(33:27):
crack on because there's always another job, and maybe we
share a glass of wine or something with our friends
and family at the end of the week to say,
something really good happened this week and we can celebrate
with them. But we're not in it for the public accolades.
We're not in it for the glory. Coming back to
when I was growing up, the pride and satisfaction of
doing a job and doing it well. I feel like
that's enough of a motivator and that's enough fulfillment for me.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
It probably sounds a bit ironic to our listeners coming
from me who's very focused on social media and there
is a very big public element to all the things
that I do, but it resonated really strongly the idea
of secrecy and the idea of privacy and the value
of like, you don't always have to be yelling about
things for them to be valuable. And I think we
(34:12):
do live in an age where people expect information as
a right, and I think that we deserve to know
everything all the time. And this is exactly the organization
that's a reminder that actually some things are more valuable
when they're not necessarily disseminated really widely. And I really
valued that reminder.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Absolutely, and we have a Director General who really values
sharing whatever we can, So if people haven't listened to
his threat assessments that he releases each year, certainly have
a look, goal listen, look or listen to them because
there's a lot of our successes in there that we
probably wouldn't have shared ten years ago, but that we're
really pushing the boundaries and sharing as much as we
(34:49):
possibly can, because like you, we also do want to
shout it from the rooftops where we can. There's just
a few where, well a lot where we can't share
it because to do so would undermine whatever we were
seeking to achieve. Yeah, We've mentioned it a few times
during this episode, but I'm not sure if I've explained.
The Annual Threat Assessment is delivered every year by the
(35:10):
Director General of ASIO, and this year it's the sixth
public annual Threat Assessment delivered by Mike Burgess and it's
basically the main way that AZIO communicates with the public
about its activities about the most direct and serious threats
to Australian national security. And as we mentioned, currently Mike
(35:32):
Burgess is a little bit more open than previous Directors General,
so he has declassified. In this year's a lot more
of Azio's successes for us to hear about, so I
highly recommend that you have a listen or a read.
I'll include the link in the show notes. And another
thing that was quite overwhelming was the Director General said
this one was quite different to previous years, and that's
because the security landscape has changed so dramatically I think
(35:55):
you mentioned earlier. He described it as everything everywhere, all
at once. So whereas in the past we faced clear
adversaries like you know, discrete organizations like al Qaeda, or
clear enemies like Bin Laden, and now enemies could be
loane actors who aren't necessarily in organized groups, who aren't
(36:15):
necessarily religiously motivated or theologically motivated, and who are just
joined by common random grievances and they've found each other
on the internet. We're facing a problem with radicalized miners.
And that just blew me away, and I realized just
how blissfully ignorant we are all lucky to be, except,
of course, you guys aren't. You're surrounded by this information
(36:35):
all day, and this being a podcast fundamentally about joy
and finding the AA's, how do you do that? When
you're immersed so deeply in national security threats?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Are you paranoid? Is it difficult?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Like?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
How do you find the joy?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I should probably do some self with reflection myself and
decide that cous work at ASIO is addictive. So you
are doing something incredibly important and incredibly meaningful every single day.
And I mean that speaking across the spectrum of stuff
that we have working here. There's no job in ASO
that is not important. And I think because of that,
(37:09):
I guess it is maybe I was just more cynically
minded to begin with anyway, but I think maybe that
does make us question things a little bit more. But
what I really love is that at the end of
a really long week, I can get out of the
office and spend time in the community, or if I'm
working a weekend, I'll take some time during the week
to do that. I love spending time with my family.
(37:30):
I've got two kids as well, and they keep me
really busy. And I know for many parents life is
hard and tricky at times, but I challenge anyone with
kids not to find joy as well.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Absolutely, do you find that? I mean, I guess one
of the things that is amazing is you can switch
off in a strange way, because you can't bring your
work home because you can't talk about it with all
the people around you, So you don't you know, people
don't have the sort of luxury of being able to
force you to talk about work outside of work. Like
how do you switch off? You mentioned you do watch
spy shows.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I would have thought, can you be sick of it?
I don't, because it's so different and they are incredibly entertaining.
When we can switch off, I try and do that
very well. So I've got a family, I've got a
husband that works outside of the organization, and he's very
supportive Hi Hunt. He's a huge support structure for me,
knowing that there are times absolutely that we can't take
our work home, but there are other times when, unfortunately
the spies and terrorists we're trying to stop don't work
(38:21):
bau hours so rude, yeah, extended hours. But when we're
not in the office, I love doing all the things
that most other mums like doing as well, so spending
time with kids. I love long distance running, baking, I
do a mean brownie, read books, of course, binge, my
favorite TV show or whatever is on whatever streaming service
we've got on that day, lots of really normal things
(38:44):
to decompress and spend time with the people I love.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Do people generally find it hard to date in the
organization or do they often date each other because it
would be really hard to describe what you do or
for anyone else to really understand kind of what you face.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Absolutely easier offices day, and our security, I suppose is
one of the key things that we need to keep
in mind during any relationship. Really, however much we share
about ourselves, particularly about our work, once you've told someone,
you can't untell them. So in the dating game, people
have told me, of course, you don't just disclose. Oh
my goodness, I'm an easy officer. If anyone's doing that,
it's a red flag walk away. But for me, I
(39:19):
think about it in terms of my kids, and they
don't know where I work at the moment, and not
telling that to them is as much for their protection
as it is for mine. So I'll see how we
go with the teenageers. I look forward to telling them
one day. But for us, it's always for any asy officer,
it's just about being really careful about what we share,
what we put on social media.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Wait, you guys are allowed to have social media of course. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, so you just have to be really discerning. Like
you were saying, there parts of any public person's life
that they want to protect and keep private.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah. Oh my goodness, Oh this is so interesting to
finish off. Is there anything that people might be surprised
about what you do? Or yeah? I guess what I
was going to say, what you get us the most?
But of course most people don't know. Yeah, what would
surprise people about what you do?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Oh? I'm sure lots, because we can't share everything. But
I think the things for me, we are an incredibly
serious organization, and we work incredibly hard and take our
work so seriously because we know that the public is
trusting us to keep them safe. So that's really sacrisanct
for us that we deliver on that and that where
we can, we make sure that we do keep them safe.
(40:28):
We're not all seeing and all knowing. But I think
one thing that would surprise people to know is that
we have a lot of fun while we're doing it.
We don't take ourselves that seriously within the realms of propriety.
We just have a lot of fun in our work
day to day. We joke. We have rivalries, we're incredibly
competitive as a cohort, and I think that that just
(40:48):
makes the workplace magic to be in. And I think
the other one for me that I was certainly surprised by,
and going back to the spy dramas, you look around
in those spy dramas and women are in the support roles.
They're the ones bringing the cups of tea, or they're
typing up the minutes or other things. And one thing
I've found in being a decision maker at some of
those tables, I'm looking across at some of the most
fierce and most amazing female leaders alongside our male colleagues
(41:12):
while we're making decisions about incredible operations.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Oh I love that. And just one last guilty pleasure question.
We like to finish every episode with a favorite quote,
and I believe you have prepared a couple.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
I couldn't decide because I like many many quotes. The
first one I actually got from you never regret kindness.
You never regret kindness true, And I think that continues
to hit really hard with me because at times when
you are overwhelmed, overworked, busy, distracted, being kind is a superpower.
(41:45):
Absolutely I have seen so many colleagues here, but also
people out there in life. Some of the greatest acts
of I think courage and grace have come from taking
the time to be kind and leading with kindness, and
I think that that's a really good reminder for me
day to day. And the other quote that I really
like is that culture eats strategy for breakfast.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Oh. I love that.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Of course, strategy is important, but the culture of where
you are, how a place makes you feel, how empowered
or included or welcome a place makes you feel, I think,
really determines how much of yourself you can bring and
how strong you are in your performance in a certain place,
or how comfortable you are. And so I often think
back to when I first joined the organization and the
(42:30):
glib thought that I had that I'd give it a year.
But I think back to that and I think about
the culture that my colleagues have brought along every day
here and that I've been so lucky to be a
part of. That's seen me stay for so many more
years than one year. And I'm described as a lifer.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
You're never leaving.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
There's too many other jobs here that I can and
want to do. That's because of the amazing culture that
I get to work in each day.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Which is actually quite extraordinary when you think about the
subject matter and the seriousness and heaviness of what you
all do, that the clor can still reflect such lightness.
I mean, it's so visible how excited you are about
your job to be here, and that's really special.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, I'm very lucky. It's a privilege.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Oh what an amazing way to finish well. Thank you
so much. This has been obviously so special for me
as a person, but such a privilege to be able
to share with our listeners.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Wonderful to speak with you. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Wow. I mean, I still have no words for this conversation.
I've listened to it multiple times through editing, and it
just never gets any less impressive, even without being able
to share all the details. This was one of the
coolest conversations I've been lucky enough to have, and I
hope that you guys were equally as captivated by our guest.
As we discussed she doesn't look like your typical spy,
(43:42):
But what I found even cooler is the fact that
there is no typical spy. So again, if any listeners
are interested in applying for Azio and maybe fancy themselves
as a future intelligence officer. There is a current recruitment
campaign on and I've included links in the show notes
for those of you who are keen. I'm so grateful
to Azo for allowing us a peek into the clandestine
(44:02):
world that allows the rest of us to live in
safe and blissful ignorance. My teaser content in the lead
up to this episode has revealed that so many of
you are fellow fans of espionage and intelligence, which was
delightful to discover. So if you did enjoy this, please
let me know or send any comments and questions because
it's an area of conversation that I will never tire of.
(44:24):
I may have some potential further leads also in this industry,
and there have been some amazing conversations over on spy
Talk if any of you follow me there, so I
would love to know if you're interested to hear more,
who you're interested to hear from, and what you're interested
to hear about, and I can do some digging in
the meantime. I hope you're having an amazing week and
are seizing your yeay
I don't look like a stereotypical spy. I can move
through our room completely unnoticed. I can do things that
people would not expect of me because they will underestimate me.
They will not think that of me. Some things in
the movies we see and go, absolutely we do that.
Are we ever going to admit it?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
No?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
There is absolutely no high like stopping a spy, stopping
a terrorist attack.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to the Sees the YA Podcast. Busy and happy
are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
one way. So this is a platform to hear and
explore the stories of those who found lives. They adore
the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst days
(00:45):
will bear all the facets of seizing your yay. I'm
Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
fuentrepreneurs WP the Suits and Heels to co Found, matcha
Maiden and matcham Milk Bark CZA is a series of
conversations on finding a life you love and exploring the
self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Over
(01:10):
our seven years so far of seizing the A, I
found myself repeatedly blown away by some of the rooms
that's led me into and some of the incredible people
that I've been so lucky to meet. But never in
my wildest dreams did I imagine that one of those
rooms would be a skiff at the headquarters of our
National Security Service AZO, or that one of those people
(01:31):
would be a real life spy. For the uninitiated, a
skiff is a sensitive compartmented information facility, and if you
followed me for even the briefest of time, it won't
surprise you one bit that I'm already familiar with all
the acronyms. Pretty much all of the content that I
consume as part of my personal platia does involve espionage
or secret operations. And you might have even heard me
(01:53):
say that I once thought my law and Languages degree
would lead me into a career in intelligence myself. So
you'll understand and why I consider this week's episode to
be an absolute career and life highlight, and this week's
guest to be a very favorite. I am able to
share that our guest is a current senior intelligence officer
at AZO, and she has been permitted to shed some
(02:13):
light on the incredible work that she does, but her
exact title, her name, and her real voice remain obfuscated
for and I cannot believe I actually get to say
this in a real life context reasons of national security.
In fact, the identity of every individual who works at
AZO is a secret except for the Director General and
the three deputy Directors General, and our intelligence landscape generally
(02:37):
has long been shrouded in secrecy. As we discuss, the
very definition of AZIO success is preventing anything for us
to know about, and revealing exactly how they do that
to any of us would also reveal it to potential enemies.
So if you do get frustrated at what our guests
can't share, know that it's for extremely good reason. While
you may have ideas about spycraft from Holly Would and
(03:00):
agencies like the CIA or MI six, there still isn't
much out there about our homegrown spies, which makes it
even more exciting to get this incredibly rare insight into
what life is like on the inside. If I disappear
after this episode, it's because I have gone to live
out my intelligence dreams. It literally sounds like the coolest
job ever. I'll also add there are a few instances
(03:23):
where our speech may seem a bit chopped or edits
might seem messy. Plus we did end up having to
add a few beeps to the very final draft. But you'll,
of course understand that you can never know why. I
hope you enjoy this one as much as I did.
Anonymous guest number one, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So exciting to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Oh, it's so exciting for me to be here. Since
i'mlike usual, I've had the great privilege of coming to
you to record from inside AZO headquarters today.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
You're so welcome. It's wonderful to have you here.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I still can't quite believe it now. I haven't done
the research I normally would, because of course, this is
the first time had someone on without knowing their name.
But I have spent my lifetime preparing the questions i'd
ask if I ever did get the chance. As I mentioned,
I'm obsessed with the world at espionage. So to start,
I know you can't share your exact title, but can
(04:14):
you share with us what you are permitted to about
your role at ASIO? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Absolutely so. I am a senior intelligence officer for ASIO,
ORSO the Australia Security Intelligence Organization. So that means that
I've had a career of catching spies and stopping terrorists,
which is one of the best careers you could ever
hope to have.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Well, that's already one of the coolest things I think
I've ever heard, and I can't like to get more
into what that actually means, including the day to day,
because I think one thing we love on this show
is going beyond people's titles to what their life actually
ends up looking like. But I'd love to start back
at the beginning with how you actually became an ASIO
intelligence officer, because I think we often skip past the
(04:55):
journey to get to where we are today when we
tell our story. Not that you can tell yours very often,
but it's all the steps along the way that makes
your pathway feel possible to any other aspiring spies out
there who might be listening. So let's go back to
your childhood, what you thought you'd be and if this
was ever on the cart.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
So I can safely say that a career in intelligence
or at ASIO was so far beyond my expectations as
a kid growing up in regional I didn't even know
that ASIO existed, and that's probably a good thing that
it was the furthest thing from my mind, because it
just shows what a wonderful society we do live in,
and it's relatively safe, and we're so privileged to live here.
(05:35):
So my parents worked as an in pat so for
me seeing them work and really take pride in what
they do and seeing their friends also do the same,
I really saw myself following them into a career like that.
There's a lot there about public service and taking pride
in what you do and investing in the community. I'm
(05:56):
really proud to say I came from a family and
community like that, and then I went to UNI and
throughout high school I had a load of different part
time jobs, and when I look back now, they all
really helped me get to where I am today. I
love that working in retail, fast food, working in customer service,
they give you all the skills that you really need here,
(06:16):
so being quick thinkers, being proactive, being critical thinkers, being
able to speak to so many different people from so
many walks of life. Anyone that's worked as a waitress
at a big event. If you can't be a quick thinker,
and read the room exactly. So all those skills really
really helped.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I love that, And so often when we trace through
these steps, the dots don't always connect. Going forwards, you
don't always know where you'll end up at the time,
But then later, looking back, you can see how the
things you've done shaped you and led you to the
job you end up in. Plus, the world is changing
so fast that the job many of us end up
in might not even exist yet, or for you, you
(06:53):
didn't even know that Azio existed, So you really do
never know where you'll end up. And that brings me
to I was reading the Director General's latest annual Threat Assessment,
which we will refer back to quite a few times
in this episode, and he said, there is no one
Azeo type, just a team player who thinks critically and
(07:13):
wants to make a difference. That's so true. But then
how do you go from regional into a senior intelligence
officer position? Like? What was that process? What qualifications do
you need?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Is it through a career is fair?
Speaker 2 (07:27):
I think I mentioned off a back when I was
a lawyer, back in the day, I did meet with
Asio at a career's fair, so very much thought I
could end up somewhere like this. You know, I want
to believe it's someone taps you on the shoulder and
that there are dead drops and code.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I love that we've all seen the movies, but I
can safely say that the pathway that you see in
a lot of the movies where there's a certain type
of person that's gone to a certain type of university
or gone to a certain type of school, and then
suddenly there's a professor that taps them on the shoulder
and says, hey, you're invited to this private session.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Oh, it doesn't happen like that, But I think that's
a really.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Good thing because as needs to protect and so represent
the community that we protect, and we take that really seriously.
So thinking about the vast array of roles and skills
that we need in the organization. We need a vast
array of people here with different sets of skills. We
need the technologists, we need the lawyers, we need the psychologists,
and even within my job family, the intelligence stream, we
(08:20):
need a huge array of skill sets and people so
that we get that diversity of thought to get the
best outcomes that we need for Australia. When I think
back to my first day when I was here many
years ago, and when I think back to who my
cohort were, we're coming in different cohorts. I was definitely
straight out of UNI, but I also had friends that
were previous school teachers, lawyers, psychologists, tradees.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Like.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
We had a huge variety in who we had coming
in with us.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
That's so cool. I read that the Director General actually
began as an electrical engineer, So I love the idea
that anyone could end up climbing the ranks at AZO.
Are you allowed to share what you studied?
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I warn't that different and machinations of it. It'd be
more easy to identify who I am. Yeah, there's no
one degree people need to take or pathway at university
to take to get in, and some roles in ASIO,
you don't need a university degree. Certainly worked alongside people
who come in through a particular job stream and then
they go through university while they're here. They are incredibly
(09:19):
hard working and do that part time in their downtime.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Okay, so you might not be able to share how
ASIO would give someone a tap on the shoulder if
they were headhunting you. I'm still going to believe that
it's code and dead drops, But of course you can
also put yourself forward and apply which one were you?
How did you get your job?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
So my story is very unique. I had a totally
different career path that outlined in my mind based on
what my degree was and where I thought I wanted
to go in my life. And I have always really
valued that hard work that we talked about before, and
I'm a big believer in whatever you do, you need
to do it well. And so this is terrible. But
when I applied for ASIO, I actually used this organization
(09:59):
to gauge how with my application was, which is ridiculous.
But when I applied, I had another really bespoke career
in mind, and so I thought, who are some of
the best, Who are some of the brightest, who are
some of the most excellent in Australia? And I thought, well,
it's the spooks. It's the ones that keep Australia safe.
So if I put my application into them and I
(10:19):
see where I get knocked out, because you won't ever
get told if you don't progress. If I just use
them and I'll figure out where my application stacks up.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Oh you mean for the other career path. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I just kept getting through, and so for Asio, I
would come along and I would have the best time.
I would meet these amazing people and I would just
be so energized every step that I got through, and
with every step I walked away and went okay bye.
I just kept getting through. And then I got the
job offer, and I thought, oh my goodness, this is
so exciting, so amazing, and I was really really excited,
(10:56):
and I thought, I'm still not one of them. I
am a country from I am not the thought that
they are looking for. And so I thought, I'll give
it a year.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
After a year, and then they'll find me out.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
They'll find me out the imposter syndrome, for sure. And
so I thought, I'll give it a year, see how
I go. And then so many years later, I'm still
here and I love it every single day, and the
people that I work alongside and the mission that we
have has just kept me bouncing out of bed every
day and coming in.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Oh my god, I've got goose bumps. I mean, I
am for personal reasons, but also because it's just such
a repeated theme of people's path yea's as I like
to call them, and that's like the crazy sliding doors moment.
Absolutely that leads you to a place that but for
you just randomly putting in your application, you might not
have ended up here. And also so for anyone listening.
(11:44):
I mean, if you're sitting on an idea, just do it,
absolutely do it. It's not the long, calculated game that often
leads you to the ultimate goal. It's the goals you
didn't know you had and you had no idea.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
And I often think what my life would look like, Yes,
the experiences that I wouldn't have had, the friends I
haven't made, the colleagues who are just so phenomenal that
I wouldn't have been up to work beside, and I
just feel sorry for that version of myself that didn't
wind up here. I'm so lucky to be here.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Well, Australia is lucky to have you, and that you
did make it through all those interview rounds. For anyone listening,
it makes sense why we can't share more about specifically
what those interview rounds involved. So I was not to
give anyone a heads up, but I guess the point
here is that anyone can apply for AZO if you're interested.
You don't have to wait for that tap on the shoulder,
which I think is just so cool.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
You can absolutely apply. Yeah, our amazing team gets a
lot of media out there in our recruitment drive, So
for anyone wanting to join the intelligence stream, there is
a lot of information out there. Head to our website
and you'll see it there.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Amazing. Okay, so we're all dying to know about what
you do and find out how much you're allowed to
tell us. But I think it does make sense too
quickly for those who don't know much about AZIO as
an organization, So for the uninitiated, to give them a
bit of an outline. First, of course, it's a secret
organization by nature, and before the current Director General, who's
a bit more open, there really wasn't much.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Shed at all about it.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
A lot of Australians don't know it exists, and a
lot of what we think we know is based on
overseas all the movies, whereas our Australian intelligence community, the AIC,
of course, has its own differences in structure. So can
you take us through the background of emerging in a
post Cold War environment so very much focused on bringing
down Soviet infiltrators. I mean, there are some really cool stories,
(13:27):
but then adapting through modern terrorism and now to kind
of the current state of affairs.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
So you're luckily aware. But for anyone listening, azio's Australia's
security service and we protect Australia and Australians from threats
to security. So we want to keep everyone safe. And
our role within the National Intelligence community is really quite
unique because we collect, we investigate, we assess, and we disrupt.
So we have lots of different distinct functions and we
do them all incredibly well. So we collect, investigate, and
(13:56):
assess to provide advice to government and industry, so we
want them to know whatever we can tell them so
they can make the best decisions to keep Australia safe.
We also collect and use intelligence to disrupt spies and terrorists.
So the jobs that we're best known for are those
by jobs, so the intelligence analysts and intelligence officers, surveillance
officers and our tech experts. But like I said, there's
(14:17):
lots of jobs that you wouldn't initially think about in
relation to AZIO, like in finance, in legal, in hr, communications, design,
linguists and heaps of other areas across the organization that
we need and I think That's what I really love
about this organization. You can have so many different jobs
within the one organization, even just within the intelligence stream
(14:37):
that I'm a part of. I've had so many more
jobs and roles in AZIO than I ever had part
time jobs as a UNI student.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I love that. I will always keep learning and I
will absolutely never be bored. I hate being bored, so
I will never ever be bored in this organization.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Oh, I mean, how could you also just as an
aside for our listeners, as I had a few questions
about this when I posted a teaser. There are nine
other organizations alongside AZEO in our Australian intelligence community. You
might have also heard of ASIS, which is our overseas
intelligence collection organization, along with several other acronyms, but we
need a full series to cover those, so definitely look
(15:12):
them up and also look up the full history of
AZIO as there are some really cool spy stories that
are now declassified, like the Petrov affair, where AZIO facilitated
the defection of a KGB spy masquerading as a diplomat
in the Soviet embassy in Canberra, which seems unfathomable to
the average Australian that this actually happens back home. But
(15:33):
I guess the reason we don't hear much about what
is happening back home because you don't hear about things
that are prevented. And the definition of your success is
that regular Australians don't know much.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
About what you do.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
But of course we here today to find out as
much as we are allowed to know about what you do.
So now to the juicy stuff. What can you share
with us about what you do? Like I said, it's
hard to imagine that there is stuff like this and
espionage happening, but it has been confirmed by the Director
General that there are spies are pready in Australia, that
(16:07):
countries are constantly trying to find out about our military capabilities,
and that there are three known countries trying to harm
people living in Australia. So what can you share with us?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So I would love to tell you about all of
the cool missions that we have done, because we do
them every day. One of the trickiest things I suppose
for the Australian public is that the more audacious our success,
the less we can share that with anybody. Because like
any sporting team, or like any recipe that you want
to protect, it's only good if you don't share it
(16:41):
too broadly. Yeah, of course we need to deliver what
our adversaries think are impossible. Yes, we need to do
the impossible every day, so that our adversaries, the people
that want to kill Australians, the people that want to
erode the fabric of our democratic society, aren't suspecting that
we're there, or that we're collecting against them, or that
we're positioning ourselves to be able to stop them. So
(17:03):
I have had so many pinch me moments in this
career where I have looked across at the intelligence officer
sitting beside me, and our eyes just lock and we
both know that what we're thinking, and then we're back
in the game. Ah. That is so cool for us
not being able to speak about it is both one
of the most important things that we can do in
(17:23):
this job, but also recognizing that we know what we're doing.
We know that we're keeping Australian safe, and the colleagues
that work alongside me and some of our closest friends
and family know that we're working towards something really important.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It still blows my mind that I'm sitting across from
someone who catches spies for living. But I guess, of
course it makes sense that the exact methods that you
used to do that can never be shared publicly because
then they be rendered totally ineffective. But the Director General
has made public some more general threats that you know,
the organization and Australia is facing and that you guys
(17:57):
would be working on. Plus, I think the topetality of
most Australians understanding of spies and intelligence officers is more
from the movies. So in a more generalized sense, can
you sort of tell us what are those general threats
that you're facing? Does any of that resemble what we
would see in films? Are you dealing with individual espionage?
(18:19):
Are you out on the streets, are you kind of
traveling overseas? Like? What are you doing on a more
general level?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So I love the spy movies and spy dramas, as
I said before, and I think their an incredible form
of entertainment, and some things are really true in them
and some things are way off. They give me a
really good laugh. Anyway, I think it's important for you'd
know this already, Sarah, but for anyone listening to know
that AZIO is Australia's security service. That means that we
are not just based here in Australia or work just
(18:47):
here in Australia. We protect Australians wherever they are across
the globe. So in terms of what you said, like
spy movies and dramas, people working overseas and things, if
we need to, we will go to where we need
to protect Australian from a particular threat. And anyone who
does want to listen to the DG's threat assessment, they'll
hear that at the moment we've got two really huge
(19:08):
security concerns upon us around foreign interference and espionage and terrorism.
For us, it is very much a matter of thinking
about everything everywhere all at once. Where it's an incredible
movie as well, but it really strikes home for us
at the moment where we have people wanting to exert
violence against Australians wherever they happen to be and targeting
(19:29):
them because of the amazing life that we have here
in Australia or belief systems that people have got. And
in terms of espionage, people wanting to steal our government secrets.
So that they can do Australia harm. And of course,
like you said with the petroots, that's not something that
is new. It goes back almost as old as time itself,
is the role of espionage or the conduct of espionage.
(19:51):
But it's a very real threat that we see here today.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It's crazy to think how often the everyday Australian could
be standing somewhere where a terrorist, a or some kind
of threat to security was foiled just the day before
thanks to someone like you guys in the Shadows, without
us having any idea that that happened. Absolutely, another really
cool thing that we walked past on the way in,
and it's been publicized before, I think in the seven
(20:14):
thirty reports, so it's not a secret. But there's a
wall dedicated to Azio's history and a museum dedicated to
artifacts and real devices used inspire operations. So there's a
camera hidden inside an Agatha Christie book. I think there's
a camera on display that I know I'm pushing the
TV thing, but that was actually used in a James
Bond movie that Azio had used in real life. So
(20:36):
there is sometimes an intersection between the movies and what
happens in real life. K. Marshall had used invisible inc
at one point, and this might sound like the olden
days to you, but of course you can't reveal specifics.
But are there any any times that you know the
technology is reflected in TV or you know, are you
guys using devices and tools in your tradecraft?
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Absolutely, we will use any tool that we can because
a lot of the time we want to blend in
with what the world around.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Us looks like.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That's one of the key things for me thinking about
how I wound up here. There's no way that a
person from rural would see themselves when I was first
applying in having a role here. But I can move
through a room completely unnoticed. I can do things that
people would not expect of me because they will underestimate me.
(21:25):
They will not think that of me. I don't look
like a stereotypical spy. And so for us, the tools
that we use or the mo that we employ is
all as normal as possible so that it can blend
in and not be noticed. And so I think some
things in the movies we see and go absolutely we
do that. Are we ever going to admit it? No?
(21:45):
But if we can blend in and not be suspected
or detected, then that's a win.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Okay, you why definitely the coolest person I've ever spoken to.
Perhaps another reference point for some of our listeners or
for the average Australian could also be situations emergencies that
we have faced in Australia that we would have heard
about in the news that ASIO has responded to, or
that your team has responded to without giving specifics, but
(22:11):
to give us some context about the kinds of situations
you would be working on.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Of course, so this one's going back a little way,
but people might remember the horrible link cafe. See I
was working of of course, I was at work that
day and we were meeting with some of our partners
and we were in a room. It was quite a
large meeting and we're all interrupted and my team and
I were the responding team for that particular incident because
(22:36):
we worked on that particular area. So we were interrupted.
We were told we all needed to leave, So we
kind of left in this frenzy of leaving our visitors
there saying sorry, someone will come to collect to you shortly,
and we came out to see what was happening on
the news, and it was just of course, horrendous and
so tragic. We had to respond in terms of finding
out who the individual was, finding as much information as
(22:57):
we could. The whole team really spoiled up, and when
that happens, you get goosebumps just seeing people dive into
as much of the information holdings as we've got, trying
to collect as much as we possibly can, because our
overall goal in any response like that is to share
as much as we possibly can with our police, law
enforcement and other partners so that they can actually have
that on the ground response. So that day we worked
(23:19):
through and tell the horrible resolution that it was until
two am, and part of the information that was provided
through on those days came from us to be able
to support that response.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
It's just crazy to think that you were actually working
on that. Is there anything internationally that we would have
seen in the news that had a similar kind of
cascading effect or that your team were working on. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So I think sticking with the terrorism theme because I
worked a lot of my career against in the counter
terrorism area. The Iceol Caliphate, which was established around and
existed around twenty fifteen. We saw a lot of young
Australians trying to travel offshore to join I still and
join other prescribed terrorist organizations for whatever reason at the time,
(24:04):
and so our effort was both against identifying individuals like
that and where we could, working as part of the
broader government effort to prevent them from traveling using different
tools available to us and legislative means. And that really
saw a number of young Australians here prevented from traveling
to join the Caliphate, to join the fight. Kind of
we stopped them doing what they actually wanted to do,
(24:24):
which unfortunately saw them start to focus on what they
might want to and could do here in Australia. So
whilst we were an amazing member of the international community
keeping those threats at home, that in itself created a
lot of work for ourselves and our law enforcement partners
to make sure that if and when they were prevented
from traveling, they weren't then successful in conducting an attack
(24:46):
here in Australia.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
That's such another fascinating part of what you guys do
is how much you are operating with national security, but
how much that bleeds into cross border staff and working
with international partners domestic partners, and it's.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Such a web.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think it sounds like, and.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
It makes us so much stronger. Our partnerships are a
gift and we're so grateful for the international and domestic
partners that we work alongside, and we have incredibly strong
relationships with so many of them, and Australia is safer
because of their efforts as well.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
What about any situations that you can share. I think
a few have been declassified of where you prevented something
from happening that was a plot. I mean, as we mentioned,
most of the time that will never see the light
of day. But I think you know a couple have
been shared publicly recently.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, So, one from the Director General's most recent threat
assessment was around an individual online who was seeking to
conduct a school shooting. The individual, we understand had actually
taken tangible steps to conduct that and the information that
AZO found and shared with our partners actually kept a
bunch of kids safe and made them and made sure
(25:55):
that they were still alive the next day, and blissfully
unaware that that was that horrible thing were going to
happen to them. So really tangible impacts like.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
That, Oh, I mean, how lucky we are to all
be so blissfully unaware but while you're taking care of
the safety of the nation, what about your own safety.
That's what keeps coming to mind for me. And there
were two examples in the threat assessment that I really
found fascinating and wanted to ask you about. One was
government personnel being given gifts by international counterparts, which you
(26:23):
would imagine is a normal part of having international relations,
but the presence contained concealed surveillance devices, which it does
sound like the movies. And then another one was a
foreign intelligence service wanting to silence an Australian based human
rights activist, and there was a scheme to trick them
into visiting a third country where plotters would be waiting
(26:44):
for them, and they'd plan to arrange an accident where
they would either be seriously injured or killed, and Azio
foiled that plot. So that just makes me think, like,
you're subject to a lot of danger. Do you ever
get scared? Like, are you worried yourself in your job?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I think because of the huge support structure we've got
here and the training that we've got we go through.
When you're recruited as an intelligence officer, particularly, you go
through a rigorous twelve month training program. Then if you
want to, you can go through further training to become
an intelligence officer. So you've already got a really solid
foundation of training behind you to bring out all of
(27:22):
those skills and tradecraft requirements that you really need. In addition,
ASIO is a team sport. One of the things that
gets me about the movies that we see it's always
one person, but for me, that one individual represents a
team of people who are all bringing about a similar
operation or something like that that they couldn't just do
by themselves. And within that particular operation, there's a whole
(27:45):
structure of people back in headquarters or wherever they happen
to be supporting it as well or putting in all
the enablers that they need to bring that operation about again,
so that we can bring about the impossible or make
it look like we have done something that our adversaries
just expect us to do. So whilst some of our
work is not without risk, we take measured risks and
(28:06):
we invest where we think there's going to be sufficient
enough reward. We really rely on the training, the support,
and of course health and safety and making sure our
people are always safe is paramount here. So yeah, no,
not felt unsafe, certainly exhilarated by some of the jobs
I've done. Well, you sound incredibly brave to me. But
you mentioned your training, and I imagine that would be
(28:28):
very rigorous because you are putting yourself on the line physically, mentally, emotionally.
I'm guessing that's a huge psychological component to it. But again,
the reference point for most of us is the farm.
It's the CIA training. So as much as you can
share what is it actually like for you guys, it
will really depend on what job. Of course, I can
(28:49):
talk about the intelligence streams, So the new recruits begin
with the Intelligence Development Program or we call it the IDP,
So that's the twelve months training program that qualifies you
to become an intelligence analyst and work as an intelligence
analyst is so you have a lot of responsibility, but
you are at the center of everything. You are driving
the investigations, you are tasking the collectors. You are the
(29:10):
hub in the hub and spoke model. So it's an
incredible career pathway in and of itself. Then if people
want to, they can elect to do some further training,
which is again very rigorous. It goes for about six
months plus some additional on the end, and that's to
become an intelligence officer, and that's where you can work
in human So that's the collection of human intelligence, and
(29:31):
that's working alongside human sources who become part of Team
Australia to keep Australia safe.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Oh that's so cool. And if you read as many
spy novels as I do, you'll already know terms like
human for human intelligence, seek INT for signals intelligence, there's
many more of them, but human intelligence, I mean it
sounds fascinating, like cultivating assets and getting out on the
ground for intelligence analyst. Would that be more of an
office based position at the start?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Certainly more office based, but I wouldn't say exclusively in
the office. Each of our roles has such a great
amount of variety in them, so there's a lot of
opportunities for travel or engagement with other organizations, or sometimes
you need to go to the place that we're collecting
the information as an analyst to provide that specific subject
matter skill insight. A lot of it is desk based,
(30:17):
for sure. Anyone thinking of applying, you'll spend a lot
of your time at the desk, but it's not like
you're bound to the desk every day.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And then once you do that extra six months, that's
more of a hands on out collecting.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Absolutely engaging with members of the community who in themselves
are heroes in my mind who work with us to
keep Australia so, oh my gosh, that is so cool.
It's a lot of fun. It's a really great line
of work.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Absolutely, But then you can't tell anyone about it, which
is I think the thing that a lot of us
struggle to get our heads around. Under the ASIER legislation,
the identity of every single employee at ASIO is a
secret except for the Director General and sometimes the deputies.
So can you tell your friends and family?
Speaker 1 (30:55):
We are allowed to tell some of our very closest
family members, and that's really important for us.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Actually.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Whilst we have incredible support networks within the organization and
incredible colleagues that you can share with, and incredible support structures,
it's really critical that we can go home to a
trusted person or people and just say I've had a
really tricky day or I've had a great day. You
can't really talk about the specifics of that, but our
friends and family are our most important support structure, and
(31:22):
anyone listening we thank you so much for everything you do.
But having that support just means that we get the
validation that we need sometimes, or just the chance to
hop home and pop in front of the TV and
not have to have to explain it.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's amazing that you have such a good support system
around you. But that whole element of secrecy also brings
up something else we talk about a lot on the show,
and that's the idea of success, our definition of success,
and the metrics we use to measure our life. I
think commonly we spend a long time chasing success, and
that could be financial, whatever that may be, but then
(31:57):
inevitably reach a point in life where we realize full
moment is a much better metric or a much more
satisfying metric. That's so true. But when we are measuring
our success, whatever that means for so many people, a
part of success is being able to share that and
express it and share the wins. And we all have
a LinkedIn page where we sort of celebrate all the
highs and lows. And not only is as you mentioned,
(32:20):
you being an intelligence difficult because you can't share all
the biggest, most exciting things that you're working on, but
also from a success metric, it would be really difficult
to not boast, but you can't be proud of the
things that you're doing. Has that been an adjustment to
people in the organization find it difficult in a culture
where we're all yelling about our achievements that you can't
(32:42):
do that.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
One thing we do well is celebrating success within these walls,
when someone does a phenomenal job, we really call them
out for it and we celebrate them. And if you're
part of a team, there is absolutely no high like
stopping a spy, stopping a terrorist attack, knowing that people
walking the streets of Australia safe around alive because of
what you've stopped happening, what you've done to stop a
(33:07):
horrible thing happening to them, and they're none the wiser.
There's nothing like a team celebration once you've pulled something
like that off. And I think for us, I'm sure
many of your listeners are the quiet overachievers that don't
always go for the recognition, and that's who feel this building.
We look at the colleagues beside us, who we respect
incredibly and go, we did that together, and then we
(33:27):
crack on because there's always another job, and maybe we
share a glass of wine or something with our friends
and family at the end of the week to say,
something really good happened this week and we can celebrate
with them. But we're not in it for the public accolades.
We're not in it for the glory. Coming back to
when I was growing up, the pride and satisfaction of
doing a job and doing it well. I feel like
that's enough of a motivator and that's enough fulfillment for me.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
It probably sounds a bit ironic to our listeners coming
from me who's very focused on social media and there
is a very big public element to all the things
that I do, but it resonated really strongly the idea
of secrecy and the idea of privacy and the value
of like, you don't always have to be yelling about
things for them to be valuable. And I think we
(34:12):
do live in an age where people expect information as
a right, and I think that we deserve to know
everything all the time. And this is exactly the organization
that's a reminder that actually some things are more valuable
when they're not necessarily disseminated really widely. And I really
valued that reminder.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Absolutely, and we have a Director General who really values
sharing whatever we can, So if people haven't listened to
his threat assessments that he releases each year, certainly have
a look, goal listen, look or listen to them because
there's a lot of our successes in there that we
probably wouldn't have shared ten years ago, but that we're
really pushing the boundaries and sharing as much as we
(34:49):
possibly can, because like you, we also do want to
shout it from the rooftops where we can. There's just
a few where, well a lot where we can't share
it because to do so would undermine whatever we were
seeking to achieve. Yeah, We've mentioned it a few times
during this episode, but I'm not sure if I've explained.
The Annual Threat Assessment is delivered every year by the
(35:10):
Director General of ASIO, and this year it's the sixth
public annual Threat Assessment delivered by Mike Burgess and it's
basically the main way that AZIO communicates with the public
about its activities about the most direct and serious threats
to Australian national security. And as we mentioned, currently Mike
(35:32):
Burgess is a little bit more open than previous Directors General,
so he has declassified. In this year's a lot more
of Azio's successes for us to hear about, so I
highly recommend that you have a listen or a read.
I'll include the link in the show notes. And another
thing that was quite overwhelming was the Director General said
this one was quite different to previous years, and that's
because the security landscape has changed so dramatically I think
(35:55):
you mentioned earlier. He described it as everything everywhere, all
at once. So whereas in the past we faced clear
adversaries like you know, discrete organizations like al Qaeda, or
clear enemies like Bin Laden, and now enemies could be
loane actors who aren't necessarily in organized groups, who aren't
(36:15):
necessarily religiously motivated or theologically motivated, and who are just
joined by common random grievances and they've found each other
on the internet. We're facing a problem with radicalized miners.
And that just blew me away, and I realized just
how blissfully ignorant we are all lucky to be, except,
of course, you guys aren't. You're surrounded by this information
(36:35):
all day, and this being a podcast fundamentally about joy
and finding the AA's, how do you do that? When
you're immersed so deeply in national security threats?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Are you paranoid? Is it difficult?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Like?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
How do you find the joy?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I should probably do some self with reflection myself and
decide that cous work at ASIO is addictive. So you
are doing something incredibly important and incredibly meaningful every single day.
And I mean that speaking across the spectrum of stuff
that we have working here. There's no job in ASO
that is not important. And I think because of that,
(37:09):
I guess it is maybe I was just more cynically
minded to begin with anyway, but I think maybe that
does make us question things a little bit more. But
what I really love is that at the end of
a really long week, I can get out of the
office and spend time in the community, or if I'm
working a weekend, I'll take some time during the week
to do that. I love spending time with my family.
(37:30):
I've got two kids as well, and they keep me
really busy. And I know for many parents life is
hard and tricky at times, but I challenge anyone with
kids not to find joy as well.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Absolutely, do you find that? I mean, I guess one
of the things that is amazing is you can switch
off in a strange way, because you can't bring your
work home because you can't talk about it with all
the people around you, So you don't you know, people
don't have the sort of luxury of being able to
force you to talk about work outside of work. Like
how do you switch off? You mentioned you do watch
spy shows.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I would have thought, can you be sick of it?
I don't, because it's so different and they are incredibly entertaining.
When we can switch off, I try and do that
very well. So I've got a family, I've got a
husband that works outside of the organization, and he's very
supportive Hi Hunt. He's a huge support structure for me,
knowing that there are times absolutely that we can't take
our work home, but there are other times when, unfortunately
the spies and terrorists we're trying to stop don't work
(38:21):
bau hours so rude, yeah, extended hours. But when we're
not in the office, I love doing all the things
that most other mums like doing as well, so spending
time with kids. I love long distance running, baking, I
do a mean brownie, read books, of course, binge, my
favorite TV show or whatever is on whatever streaming service
we've got on that day, lots of really normal things
(38:44):
to decompress and spend time with the people I love.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Do people generally find it hard to date in the
organization or do they often date each other because it
would be really hard to describe what you do or
for anyone else to really understand kind of what you face.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Absolutely easier offices day, and our security, I suppose is
one of the key things that we need to keep
in mind during any relationship. Really, however much we share
about ourselves, particularly about our work, once you've told someone,
you can't untell them. So in the dating game, people
have told me, of course, you don't just disclose. Oh
my goodness, I'm an easy officer. If anyone's doing that,
it's a red flag walk away. But for me, I
(39:19):
think about it in terms of my kids, and they
don't know where I work at the moment, and not
telling that to them is as much for their protection
as it is for mine. So I'll see how we
go with the teenageers. I look forward to telling them
one day. But for us, it's always for any asy officer,
it's just about being really careful about what we share,
what we put on social media.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Wait, you guys are allowed to have social media of course. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, so you just have to be really discerning. Like
you were saying, there parts of any public person's life
that they want to protect and keep private.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah. Oh my goodness, Oh this is so interesting to
finish off. Is there anything that people might be surprised
about what you do? Or yeah? I guess what I
was going to say, what you get us the most?
But of course most people don't know. Yeah, what would
surprise people about what you do?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Oh? I'm sure lots, because we can't share everything. But
I think the things for me, we are an incredibly
serious organization, and we work incredibly hard and take our
work so seriously because we know that the public is
trusting us to keep them safe. So that's really sacrisanct
for us that we deliver on that and that where
we can, we make sure that we do keep them safe.
(40:28):
We're not all seeing and all knowing. But I think
one thing that would surprise people to know is that
we have a lot of fun while we're doing it.
We don't take ourselves that seriously within the realms of propriety.
We just have a lot of fun in our work
day to day. We joke. We have rivalries, we're incredibly
competitive as a cohort, and I think that that just
(40:48):
makes the workplace magic to be in. And I think
the other one for me that I was certainly surprised by,
and going back to the spy dramas, you look around
in those spy dramas and women are in the support roles.
They're the ones bringing the cups of tea, or they're
typing up the minutes or other things. And one thing
I've found in being a decision maker at some of
those tables, I'm looking across at some of the most
fierce and most amazing female leaders alongside our male colleagues
(41:12):
while we're making decisions about incredible operations.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Oh I love that. And just one last guilty pleasure question.
We like to finish every episode with a favorite quote,
and I believe you have prepared a couple.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
I couldn't decide because I like many many quotes. The
first one I actually got from you never regret kindness.
You never regret kindness true, And I think that continues
to hit really hard with me because at times when
you are overwhelmed, overworked, busy, distracted, being kind is a superpower.
(41:45):
Absolutely I have seen so many colleagues here, but also
people out there in life. Some of the greatest acts
of I think courage and grace have come from taking
the time to be kind and leading with kindness, and
I think that that's a really good reminder for me
day to day. And the other quote that I really
like is that culture eats strategy for breakfast.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Oh. I love that.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Of course, strategy is important, but the culture of where
you are, how a place makes you feel, how empowered
or included or welcome a place makes you feel, I think,
really determines how much of yourself you can bring and
how strong you are in your performance in a certain place,
or how comfortable you are. And so I often think
back to when I first joined the organization and the
(42:30):
glib thought that I had that I'd give it a year.
But I think back to that and I think about
the culture that my colleagues have brought along every day
here and that I've been so lucky to be a
part of. That's seen me stay for so many more
years than one year. And I'm described as a lifer.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
You're never leaving.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
There's too many other jobs here that I can and
want to do. That's because of the amazing culture that
I get to work in each day.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Which is actually quite extraordinary when you think about the
subject matter and the seriousness and heaviness of what you
all do, that the clor can still reflect such lightness.
I mean, it's so visible how excited you are about
your job to be here, and that's really special.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, I'm very lucky. It's a privilege.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Oh what an amazing way to finish well. Thank you
so much. This has been obviously so special for me
as a person, but such a privilege to be able
to share with our listeners.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Wonderful to speak with you. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Wow. I mean, I still have no words for this conversation.
I've listened to it multiple times through editing, and it
just never gets any less impressive, even without being able
to share all the details. This was one of the
coolest conversations I've been lucky enough to have, and I
hope that you guys were equally as captivated by our guest.
As we discussed she doesn't look like your typical spy,
(43:42):
But what I found even cooler is the fact that
there is no typical spy. So again, if any listeners
are interested in applying for Azio and maybe fancy themselves
as a future intelligence officer. There is a current recruitment
campaign on and I've included links in the show notes
for those of you who are keen. I'm so grateful
to Azo for allowing us a peek into the clandestine
(44:02):
world that allows the rest of us to live in
safe and blissful ignorance. My teaser content in the lead
up to this episode has revealed that so many of
you are fellow fans of espionage and intelligence, which was
delightful to discover. So if you did enjoy this, please
let me know or send any comments and questions because
it's an area of conversation that I will never tire of.
(44:24):
I may have some potential further leads also in this industry,
and there have been some amazing conversations over on spy
Talk if any of you follow me there, so I
would love to know if you're interested to hear more,
who you're interested to hear from, and what you're interested
to hear about, and I can do some digging in
the meantime. I hope you're having an amazing week and
are seizing your yeay
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