Seize the Bébé // Lisa Messenger and Sarah Megginson on surrogacy and the power of two

I mentioned the crazy revelation in our last episode that our first was back in 2018 making 2025 our seventh year. And that makes this one of many beautiful full circle moments as we welcome back our first guest EVER, the inimitable Lisa Messenger, without whom the show would not actually exist. I so often talk about sliding doors moments and sometimes those come in the form of a person taking a leap of faith on you that changes your life forever. Lisa said yes when we hardly knew each other, I had zero proof of concept, and was so green in business so I’ll always be grateful to her and just reminding all of you to always ask because you never know who might say yes…

What’s even more special about this one is that while Lisa has been back a few times, we’ve now added motherhood to the bonds of our friendship AND pathways to family that transcend DNA. Lisa was just 3 years into trying when we first spoke, but 18 rounds of IVF would follow until, 2922 days after starting trying, Lisa welcomed her beautiful son Hugo into the world via surrogacy. Being adopted, I have always been so invested in making less traditional pathways to family more accessible, so PORED over the incredible book Lisa and her wonderful surrogate, Sarah Megginson, co-authored, The Power of Two. They broke their hearts all the way open to share every detail of their experience and we are SO lucky to have them BOTH on the show today.

I’ll let them tell you more themselves but I personally was so curious about the mechanics and logistics of surrogacy with it still being rarely spoken and perhaps a bit stigmatised. On the chance it might reach even one or two of you who needed a scrap of new information or a glimmer of hope, it felt perfect for Seize the Bebe and I hope you enjoy as much as I did


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You can follow Sarah here.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
After his first birthday. We were still in the High
Court via zoom with me being questioned I mean it
makes my blood boil, but by some sort of eighty
year old gray haired man and being slightly whatever but
pretty much who was saying, are you sure you try
it hard enough to have a baby?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to the Seas the Ya Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
Busy and happy, but tired and worn, just some of
the feelings when baby is born. There's magic, elation, there's
chaos and tears, but everyone goes through the same hopes
and fears. So this is a segment we hope helps
you feel supported and valid. The mum juggles real, the good, bad,
the ugly, the best.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
And worst day.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
It's part of the journey to seize the Babe. I'm
Sarah Davidson, a lawyer turned f entrepreneur who hung up
the suits and heels to co found Mata Maiden a
Macha milk bar, become a TV and radio presenter and
of course host the Sees the Ya Podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
This year I added.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Motherhood to that list, which is the best job I've
ever had with our beautiful baby Teddy. And this segment
was designed to house all the conversations we've been having
about parenthood. We'll still do our regular episodes, and just
like real life, it's a constant balance between our parent
identity and everything else. I hope you guys enjoy this
segment as much as I have enjoyed creating it. Guys,

(01:22):
I mentioned the crazy revelation in our last episode that
our first was back in twenty eighteen, making twenty twenty
five our seventh year of seizing the AA, and that
makes this one of many beautiful full circle moments as
we welcome back our first guest ever, the inimitable Lisa Messenger,
without whom this show would not actually exist. I so

(01:45):
often talk about sliding doors moments, and sometimes those come
in the form of a person taking a leap of
faith on you that changes your life forever. Lisa said
yes when we hardly knew each other. I had zero
proof of concept, literally had barely understood what a podcast
actually was, and was so green in business. So I
will always be incredibly grateful to her, and just reminding

(02:06):
all of you to always ask the question, because you
just never know who might say yes. What's even more
special about this one is that while Lisa has been
back on the show, a few times. We've now added
motherhood to the bonds of our friendship and pathways to
family that transcend DNA. Lisa was three years into trying
to conceive when we first spoke back in twenty eighteen,

(02:29):
but eighteen rounds of IVF would follow until twenty nine
hundred and twenty two days after starting trying, Lisa welcomed
her beautiful son, Hugo, into the world via surrogacy, being adopted.
As you all know, I've always been so invested in
making less traditional and sometimes stigmatized pathways to a family

(02:49):
more accessible and better understood. So I pored over the
incredible book that Lisa and her wonderful surrogate, Sarah Megison
co authored, called The Power of Two, which came out
late last year. They broke their hearts all the way
open to share every detail of their experience, logistics, finances, emotions,
and we are just so lucky to have them both

(03:12):
on the show today. I'll let them tell you more themselves.
They tell it so much better than I do. But
I personally was so curious about the mechanics and logistics
of surrogacy, with it still being rarely spoken about and
perhaps still a bit taboo or stigmatized, but definitely not
very accessible in terms of the finances and all the
logistics of making it work. On the off chance that

(03:32):
this episode might reach even one or two of you
who needed a scrap of new information or a glimmer
of hope, as we will talk about it felt like
the perfect topic for Caesar Bab and I hope you
all enjoy it as much as I did. Of course,
as this is about a fertility journey, just a content warning.
We do cover pregnancy loss and other similar struggles, so
please do take care while listening. Lisa and Sarah, Welcome

(03:56):
to CZA. Actually, Lise, welcome back to CZA. I feel
this is maybe your fifth appearance or something like that.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, I feel like I've been hanging around for a
while and we were just chatting before we jumped on
about how I was your first party guest and you
were my first plenty guest. So there's something beautiful about
all of this.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
Absolutely, But when I was your first podcast guest, you
were so established in your career. I was just helping
you out because I was also editing it.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
But when you were my.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
First podcast guest, I had just started in business. The
podcast Landscape was brand new. I had no idea what
I was doing, and you took such a big leap
of faith saying yes to me back then the show.
I think that was like twenty eighteen, and I definitely
wouldn't be here, my career wouldn't be where it was
if you hadn't said yes. So I will always remember

(04:42):
that and be eternally grateful. So what a full circle moment.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
And look at you now with one of the best
podcasts on the planet. There's many full circle moments on
the podcast between the three of us today.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
I'm sure whereas we said, this is the first time
we've properly met, and yet because of your beautiful book,
as we mentioned and off air, I know almost everything
about your lady bits and how.

Speaker 4 (05:04):
Your urous works, just all the details I know.

Speaker 5 (05:08):
I think far too many people know more than they
ever wanted to about how my inner parts work.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Now I'm such a sucker for detail. But that's also
the beauty of your incredible co authored book, The Power
of Two, where you both give such intimate details and
often quite stigmatize details of the surrogacy experience and other
parts of the fertility journey. And that stigma is often
the barrier to accessibility for other people who might be
on a similar journey. I feel like this is quite

(05:36):
a signature move for you, Lisa. You've always shared the financials,
the data, you share numbers, and that's so unheard of.
So I'm so grateful that you've put this out into
the world. Thank you so much for sharing the way
you do.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Thank you so Where to start?

Speaker 3 (05:51):
There's so much I wish I could just read the
entire book out to everyone, but hopefully they go and
do that for themselves. Lise, maybe let's start with a
bit of your fertility journey, the chronology leading up to
when you met Sarah and when you embarked on this
journey together. So eighteen rounds of IVF, eight years of trying,
I mean in your data, twenty nine hundred and twenty

(06:12):
two days. Gosh, you tried adoption. You've done IVF in
many different formats, like tell us about the journey leading
up to this point.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, Well, Sarah and I met in twenty eleven, so
Sarah came before all that came back. But we met
in a work capacity.

Speaker 4 (06:32):
We were working on book babies, not real babies.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Baby sahed A number of my books in the first
book she edited for me, because I write about everything
that I know nothing about, and then I write as
I learn as future, which is where I've written so
many books. So that particular book in twenty eleven was
a property investing book that Sarah and I met over.
But yes, fast forward to my fertility journey and then

(06:56):
we can go back to how we connected about all
of this twenty fifteen. And it's funny because I'm so
data orientated in my business now because I've had to
learn to be. I am big on numbers. Stephen always
says to me, Oh my god, how do you just
pull these numbers out? Like I just know numbers about
when things happened. So twenty fifteen, I was with my

(07:18):
previous partner, I got pregnant to him. Sadly, I had
a miscarriage and then we broke up shortly thereafter. But
being a bit of a bost lady and being like
I'm ready to have a baby now, that was really
painful and it kind of opened the gates of I
really want to be a mum. And I think it
was back when I had Collective Hub Print mag and

(07:40):
you know, we were very much about world domination at
the time with the magazine in thirty seven countries, and
so I was like, of course I can throw this
into the mix, and of course I can achieve this,
and I don't need a man to do so. So
then I decided to get donus sperm, and I did
two rounds of IVF using my eggs, shopping for random

(08:00):
baby daddy's on the internet. So where I went next.
Actually before that, though, I had been to Bali the
Christmas of twenty sixteen, and I'd met this little baby
Gracie who was lying on a mattress and I spent
three days lying next to her and I tried to
adopt her. So yeah, so natural conception tried to adopt
two rounds with baby daddy sperm, and none of that,

(08:25):
sadly was successful. And then I met Stephen shortly thereafter,
and he was like, you know, once we knew that
we were going to be together, we were like, let's
try and have a baby. Yeah, And that was interesting
because he was like, well, let's just go naturally. But
I was already like three rounds into everything, you know,
I'd done all the pieces before, and he was like,
fresh off the you know, fresh out of the gates,

(08:45):
and like, let's try to have a baby naturally. So
I'd already done two rounds of and then we tried naturally,
which he was determined to do, which I think makes
complete sense because as we talk about in the book,
we all come to things at different phases. We tried naturally,
that wasn't working, so then proceeded to do a further

(09:05):
fourteen rounds of IBF. So by the time Sair came
into the picture, I had done two rounds on my
own my maths now twelve with still and then was
all right. Anyway, we got to fourteen sixteen and then
came in for the last two. I mean, it was
a long journey, and really we talked about it all

(09:28):
in the book, but it's not a sorry book, which
I think you pointed out before says it was much
more around that's the through line. But for us it's
about how do we tell a story and you know,
share the tenacity and the never giving up and anything's
possible and there's more than one way to do anything,
which you know I've always been all about clearly, and
I was just not going to give up until I

(09:50):
had my beautiful scromptious, little baby in my hands. So yeah,
that's that's the smash.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
I mean it's one of those things where you had
spoken so much in your life about tenacity and grit
and you know, never kind of taking over an answer
before that point. And yet I don't think any of
the times where you'd try something for had it taken
you eight years and eighteen rounds to not be able
to do it, And for someone so driven and so

(10:23):
sure that you could just do better next time and
understand all the data, I can't imagine how frustrating and
what a roller coaster, just how consuming that that must
have been for that time.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
All consuming, And I think, you know, mostly what you
and I have talked about previously is entrepreneurship and business,
you know, which I'm very good at because I mean
that's what I do. I thrive on finding solutions to
problems and seeing opportunity where others see, you know, bluckages,
and so that's what I do all day, every day.
So it was extraordinarily frustrating that you can't just you know,

(10:58):
throw money at something or bringing a team to solve
so I mean you can. I did throw a lot
of money and did bring in a lot of teams.

Speaker 6 (11:06):
I was going to say, you did try that.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
You know, there are certain things that medically, you know,
within my body, it just seemed impossible to solve. And
you know, in a business meeting, we would always debrief
and work out what do we do best next time?
And every single time with the clinic that we had
a debriefing call. Even though the rounds of IBF had
cost between ten and twelve thousand dollars each, the debriefing

(11:30):
call then was like another one hundred and thirty dollars.
I'm like, you do not just throw that in as
a value had And it always took you know, two
to four minutes, and it was just like you're on
the right track, you know, just keep going. So that
I found extraordinarily frustrating because you know, as a business
person and someone who wants to reverse engineer and you know,

(11:51):
break everything apart and work out, well, why is it
not working? Like, just tell me what I'll do and
I'll do it. I don't care, like I'll which I did,
you know, poo in a thing to the US and
check it out and do this and do that, like
whatever it is, inject myself for one hundred and eighty times,
you know, swallow these tablets, climb on the roofs, down
on my head, whatever it is, just tell me. So
that was frustrating because in those briefing calls it was

(12:14):
very much like, no, you're doing really well. And I'm
someone who, as is said, we like to learn and
we like to have data and explanations so we can
do better and be better, and so it was like, well, okay,
thank you, and there was not much to go on.
So that was very frustrating.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
I always found, even in like a much much more
condensed version of what you went through, that it was
the first time ever in my life I'd had to
accept that I could do all the right things, everything right.
Every single thing that is possible to control I had
controlled to the best of my ability, and still just
some months you didn't get a result. Like it was

(12:53):
just the most frustrating thing because we're so used to
our effort equally output, and there was just no output.
So before we do move on to the actual surrogacy
process and the mechanics of it, to anyone who I
think you often hear the story in reverse. You hear
like even the way I tell my story is now
I have Teddy, so you kind of hear with the
happy ending. And even with my mum's story, she also

(13:13):
went through an extraordinary amount of IVF before adopting us,
And so we all have a beautiful happy ending at
the end. But for those who haven't sort of got
their happy ending in that bit where you just don't
know how enduring it's going to be, what does keep
you going? Like, what would you say to someone who's
sort of still in those earlier days, Because I feel
like there will be a lot of listeners who are

(13:35):
listening because that's where they are.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, absolutely, and sorry, sayh Meg, we will come to you.
I feel like it's the Lisa Show out of my mind.
There's a whole lot of stuff. And also, interestingly, since
the book The Power Two has come out, it's also
brought out a whole lot of triggers and stuff because
you know, we've been rashing it and sharing it and everything.

(14:00):
It's kind of brought up the whole journey again, which
I think is probably good in terms of helping other
people and feeling back into the feelings. But for me, yeah,
I do have my happy ending, and so I'm like,
oh my god, please let those eight years will be dolune.
I just want to focus on this beautiful baby in
front of me. But for anyone who's still in the trenches,
I'm very aware that I only talk about my own

(14:23):
experiences because there's nothing worse than people being like, oh,
why don't you just try and relax more? Or I
did this, And sometimes that's useful to kind of go, oh, yeah,
maybe they're little threads that I could follow, But also
sometimes you just want to scream because you're like, I know,
I've tried that fifteen mimes. So I think what I

(14:43):
would say is that what kept me going to be honest,
in a way, it was probably Stephen because he just
kept really wanting a baby and just kept saying, come on,
we can do this, and so I just kind of
kept leaning into whatever. I don't know if I would
have given up earlier. What I would say is this, though,

(15:04):
actually the most useful thing for other people is I
think it's like little semblances of hope and creating little
things to look forward to. So for me, what that
meant was just changing things up a little bit, and
that's probably actually the most useful thing I can say
to anyone, because when I was trying the same thing
over and over again and being told by the clinic, oh,

(15:26):
just keep going. But it was when someone else, actually,
when i'm thinking back to it, suggested a little something
like at some one point I started going to a
Chinese herbalist, and you know, people had said acupuncture is great,
so then I went on to Okay, I'll do it.
I was doing acupuncture two or three times a week,
every week and taking up to ninety tablets a day,

(15:46):
which sounds crazy. Fifty of them were these tiny, tiny
little bullets that you just check down at once. But
you know, I think, actually it's again about people's readiness
and what information they want to take in. But I
think it was those things sometimes gave me the hope
and so I was like, oh I try that, Yep,
this will be the answer. Or you know, when we
tried different protocols like you know, swapping over, I don't know,

(16:09):
various different things that we did. I think that gave
me some more hope because I was like, oh, that
can do it. So I think when you've got new
next steps, it opens up the ability. Like I think
if i'd just done eighteen rounds of IVF doing the
exact same protocol without introducing anything new or trying anything new.
I might have given up the way before, but as

(16:31):
we talk about in the book, there was just so
many different things, yeah, to the point where I actually,
I mean, this is irrelevant. And we didn't talk about
this in the book, but like Steven and I went
to one crazy naturopath that charged nine dollars a minute,
while and Stephen used to exist purely on like kale
and mung beans and you know, like the healthiest person

(16:54):
on the entire planet. And we both did all these tests,
which included like doing a protest and sending it off
to America, all these things. Right, Anyway, the funny thing is,
and this is the ridiculousness of it, my results came
back like absolutely squeaky clean, and I wasn't eating particularly
well and I was all over the shop and he
was like and I couldn't stop laughing because I was like,

(17:16):
oh my god, you're like the healthiest person I know.
And he had like all these red lines on his
So you just got to keep trying different things, I think,
and work out what works for you, work out what
information you're open to I know a lot of times
when I was ready for help, I'd be like, yes,
can you share something with me? But other times I'd
be like, just today or this week or this month,

(17:38):
I'm just not open to anything. I've probably tried it
and I just need to hold my protect my energy.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
I think I love that you said the readiness to
hear it, because I also think that with different pathways,
like you're the most beautiful example of and I think
I'm also an example of the fact that there are
many different pathways to a family and DNA and blood
and natural birth is but one of many. But unless
you've had exposure to it, like to me when we
were trying, I sort of thought, adoption is so not

(18:05):
foreign to me. It's been around me at my husband's
My mother in law was adopted as well, so both
sides it's quite common, which means the more you talk
about it, the less foreign these things are. And I
think this is why you guys are so amazing, is
because no one has really spoken about saragus before, even
as an option.

Speaker 6 (18:22):
So what I would love to ask you.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Sarah, is the very very beginning idea, was you kind
of throwing away a comment of if you need a surrogate,
you know, let me know. Is that because you had
had exposure to sarrogasy before, did you know how it worked?
Or was it just literally a random idea.

Speaker 5 (18:40):
No exposure to anything. All I had to had was
really easy pregnancies. Myself, this idea had always been fascinated
in sarrogacy, but my own exposure to it had been overseas,
like seeing people on Oprah talking about how they used
a sarrogate, or just seeing you know, reading articles in
magazines and stuff. I really didn't know much about it

(19:00):
at all. I had tried years ago just to like
google it and see, like is there an agency you
can register with in And it's really.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
Really hard in Australia. It's so such a black hole.
There's like hardly and information about it.

Speaker 5 (19:13):
And so I had just always thought, years ago, like
a decade ago, when the first thought popped into my mind,
I thought, if the right circumstance came up, you know,
I'd love to do that. It was something i'd talked
about with my husband, like I reckon I could be
a surrogate one day, and I'd love to do this
for someone one day. So It wasn't a surprise to
him when I came to him and said I wanted
to do this for Lisa. We talked about it, no way.

Speaker 4 (19:33):
It wasn't like.

Speaker 5 (19:34):
I had gone, oh, my sister needs a baby, so
I'm going to do this. It was just like this
idea of something I could do one day, and then
when I was talking to Lisa and she's like, oh,
we're starting IVF, it's not going so well.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
And I just wasn't even thinking. I was like, oh, well, if.

Speaker 5 (19:47):
You need a surrogate, you know, I'm usually But it
was actually at the beginning of her journey shows only
maybe like three rounds in. When I say only, my gosh,
three rounds is a lot of rounds for a lot
of people that you know, the end of the journey.
But for now we know that Lisa had such a
long road. She was only three rounds in at the time,
and so that wasn't really an option for her then.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
And I must admit I just kind of threw it
out there. I didn't know anything.

Speaker 5 (20:15):
About what it would involve or what the I knew nothing.
I knew nothing, so I was just like, oh, yeah,
you know, sure, let's do it. The same way that
like you're chatting with friends and they go, we should
go to Bali one day.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 5 (20:27):
Let's go to girls trip. Like I was just like, yeah,
that sounds great, we could do it. So I kind
of I threw it out there, and then we just
didn't talk about it again. It was like she was like, oh,
that's so kind of you, but you know, we're still
early stages and whatever, and then.

Speaker 4 (20:41):
We didn't talk about it again. And then I went
and had.

Speaker 5 (20:43):
I had hernias with my pregnancies and I had diastysprecty,
so my abs were really separated and the hernia was
starting to become really painful, and my GP said, look,
you're either going to need to go get it operated
on or it will burst and then you'll be getting
the operation in an emergency setting. So like, either way
you're getting an operation, it's just a matter of when

(21:05):
you want to do it.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
And he's like, if you.

Speaker 5 (21:06):
If you wait and it explodes and you're in surgery
an emergency, you might get someone who's only done three
of these before in their life.

Speaker 4 (21:13):
Or if you go and proactively get it taken care of,
you can.

Speaker 5 (21:16):
Get a specialist and I was like, well, that sounds
like a better way to do it.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
So I went and got all that repaired.

Speaker 5 (21:22):
And my surgeon at the time, excuse me, He said, like,
you're finished having babies, because once we put you all
back together, we don't want to, you know, stress that
area out again.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
And I was like, no, no, we're done. And like
in the back of.

Speaker 5 (21:32):
My mind, I thought, oh, I threw that out to Lisa,
but she never like picked up on it, Like we
never talked about it again, so that's probably not going
to happen.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
So off I went got my surgery until we did.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
Oh my gosh, it is like, you know all those
memes about how the girls, you know, trip to Europe
has made it out of the group chat. For you guys,
it's like a baby made it out of the group chat.
I mean, I said to you guys before he started recording.

(22:03):
It's the second time I've read the book, even having
already known the story, just because I know Lisa and
it just I've always been such a big believer that
the universe works things out, the timing, the way ideas circulate,
like things conspire to make things happen, and I believe
that our first loss was because Teddy was waiting and
he just wasn't ready then. And now it all makes sense,

(22:25):
and I kind of feel like Hugo was just waiting.
He was waiting for all of those things, yea, and
it took you know, he was like these eight years,
I'm not ready yet, Like You're gonna have to wait, mum,
because I'm in the stars and I.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Need Sarah to drop this email, and like these things.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
Need to happen, and it all worked out, which is
It gives me goosebumps to think of how many things
had to go right at the right time for this
idea to circulate. And I hope that maybe someone listening
to this finds some nugget of the process of something
that opens their mind to something that also is part of,
you know, the fabric that makes up their own journey.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Why.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
I think it is truly remarkable how much you guys share.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, I also have goosebumps all of my entire body,
and you probably feel this with Teddy. But like I
do think about it often, Sarah and Sarah because I
look at you and I go, oh my gosh, imagine
if I hadn't been successful before I wouldn't have Hugo like,
and he's just so oh, I get so my show like,

(23:24):
he's so perfect. I am so in love with him.
We are so connected, it's like we're the same person.
It's wild on so many levels. And so yeah, I
do think that's hopefully another piece for anyone out there
trying still in the trenches, just you know, hang on
to that string of possibility and we can get into

(23:46):
this as much in as much detail as you want.
But as you said, I do share the finances and things,
and that's always been something I've done since I watched
the magazine in twenty thirteen. I was always like, the
story behind the story. We're a real relatable, attainable and
if I'm not talking about it, then is it? You know.
I feel like it's my duty, that's what I've put
out into the world, to actually explain it all. And

(24:08):
if you don't put all the pieces in, then a
lot of people are left shaking their head or scratching
their head and going but why, but why? But how
about how? And I've always wanted to really help to
take that away and make things much more easy to understand.
And I think you can only do that with all
of the detail, but the financial piece. We had a

(24:28):
review a couple of days ago, a beautiful review, but
it triggered me a little bit because she was like,
of course, you know, Lisa and Sarah are beautiful in
the book, and because they talk all about, you know,
the privilege that they have, it always makes me feel
a bit like, you know, because yes, I have privileged
depending on how you look at it, in that I

(24:49):
had the resources, mostly being money, to be able to
do this, and I do understand that a lot of
people are not in that position. And I do hope,
you know, through what Sarah and I are putting out there,
that you know, there becomes some regulatory changes and things
so that it becomes more accessible, because you know, there
is so many fertility issues and they seem to be

(25:11):
sadly becoming more prevalent. So I do hope. So, I mean,
I met a woman recently who had saved for ten
years to have one round of IBF, and luckily she
was fortunate to have her child. But I do know that.
But the thing about privilege, it kind of well in
the book, I talk a lot about it, you know,
part of the reason I beat myself up and people

(25:31):
were like, well, of course you can't get pregnant, because
the irony was I had to keep trembling the world
doing what I do, Like the biggest piece of my
money is jumping on stages and speaking, and I needed
to do that in order to pay for the IVF.
So yeah, anyway, and that's the whole thing. But yes,
I understand we were in a position to be able
to do it.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah, but I think it's also yes, you're right that
it does depend how you look on it, because at
the same time, you know, one of the so you
talk about is the four hundred thousand US dollars that
goes into an agency, but that it wasn't without sacrifice.
I mean, you had to sell your house to fund that.
So yes, your privileged in that you had a house
to sell to do that, but it didn't not cost

(26:13):
you things that you had worked for in order to
you know, it wasn't just sitting there sort of you
were rolling in money, you know.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
And actually another point around that, which is a full circle,
which I've never talked about really, but probably part of
the reason, I mean, the whole irony of this whole thing,
I have had my own businesses for twenty three and
a half years, and my business was my identity and
my everything, right, so I almost forgot to have a baby.
So it's because I hustled my ass off for twenty

(26:44):
three years and probably almost sacrificed the ability to have
a baby, that I actually had the finances to be
able to pay for the baby. I would suggest people
maybe stop hustling their ass off a little earlier than me,
and maybe they wouldn't have to put all the money
that they for twenty three years into trying to have
a baby.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean again, it's so funny
how it works out. And again maybe it all inspired
because you were meant to have Hugo. And that's what
my mom has also always drilled into me because she
went through I mean very primitive IVF, like Monash IVF
when it first started. So she's got like immense hormonal issue,
like lifelong issues from how kind of early stage it was.

(27:23):
But she still says to this day it's because she
was like I was.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Waiting for her.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
And one thing that I also love about your book
is it does remind I think we have this fascination.
I mean, there's a whole chapter in the book on
how the first question for everybody is whose DNA is it? Like,
as if that's the most important thing. But what I
think is really beautiful is not only did things happen
like your left breast started producing milk, Lisa, but also
that like when I go out with Mum, I'm fully Asian,

(27:52):
she's fully Caucasian, and no one can't tell immediately that
where mother and daughter, like we have body language things
people say like, oh, you've the same smile or the
same face shape or whatever, and there's no sort of
question about it. And you say now that there's so
many things about Hugo where people are like, oh, he's
got your whatever it is. And it's just funny that
we've beenly preoccupied with DNA being the only way that

(28:14):
you can be related, and yet all around us there
are these bonds of family that aren't based on that,
And I think it's just interesting how that is the
first question. Probably most people listening will be waiting to hear, like,
who's DUNO was it? As if that's the most important thing.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, So just to cover off on that for anyone
who hasn't read the book yet, spoiler Alette, Hugo is
not my Danna, And that was a big point that
Sarah and I, I mean, we did months of like
back and forwards on that, because it's funny whenever we said, oh,
I've got a sorry get carrying Hugo, but I would

(28:52):
always language it like I'm pregnant. So there's a lot
around that but kind of shockingly. But I don't think
anyone meant anything buy it. I think that's just a fascination.
But every single time people would say, oh, is it
your eg and every time I was like, it was
really jarring and triggering for me, and so like sometimes
I would lie and like I just was like and

(29:14):
it always it often took away from the after I'd
said I'm pregnant and then to be like straight on
my way met with that. But no know, it took
me quite a lot of therapy to get through that,
to be like do I feel less bad? Or like
why is that triggering me? But now that Hugo's here,
oh and sayah, you know really said to me, which
I agree with, you know, to round it out properly

(29:37):
and for people to truly understand what is possible if
I left that piece out yet talked about all the
other roads to Hugo. Then it would have been a
bit disingenuous, and it wouldn't have necessarily because speaking of hope,
that's when I had the piece of hope, right. It
was when I had done it. I've just got she
was again when I went for some reason outside of

(29:59):
my normal clinic for a day to do a scan
and this woman was like, ah, I have women in
here all the time that used dinner eggs and they're
like getting pregnant all over the place. Kind to me,
and I just walked out of there and I was like,
oh my gosh. Right, But like the readiness, I wasn't
ready before. I always thought, A, oh, carry my own baby,

(30:20):
and then b no, of course it's going to be
my egg. And then you know, I got to your
point where it was like, oh my god, of course, yes, yes, yes,
And then it was just catching Stephen up because his
readiness came understanding different phases. But you know what there
is and you, you said, Davidson, understand this completely with
your mama bear. I mean, there is not a question

(30:42):
on the planet that Hugo is not unnervely every single
bit my child and the crazy thing with us is
and this might trigger you, and I'm sorry if it does.
We look identical like when we were babies, which is wild.
So yeah, there's so many things it's quite crazy. So yes,
that is the piece that we decided to talk about.

Speaker 5 (31:05):
Well, And just to add on to that, Lisa and
I talked about it a lot because it was obviously
a really sensitive chapter for her. But I said, you
can't tell a story like this and give people hope
because a lot of the people reading this book are
trying to have the hope that they'll be able to
have their happy ending in their family. And I said,
you can't do that and not share that piece, because
then you're encouraging people to keep going down the path

(31:25):
you went down sixteen times with no result, And that
just was not not something we wanted to do. We
really want to help people see what the options are
when you do broaden it out a little bit and go,
what's the goal. The goal is to have a family,
so let's look at every opportunity we can to make
that happen.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
I had lunch with them another woman who had a
sorry to carry her baby the other day, which was
just so beautiful. And the funny thing is she said oh,
but she was very adamant. She was like, oh, but
he's my DNA, you know, like and I was like, oh,
they didn't even whatever, you know. And as I was

(32:02):
leaving about three hours later, I'm going to cry, she
said to me, I have to tell you something. He's
not my DNA, because I'd said to her, you guys,
you know Ukrainian egg. And then because I'd done that, right,
I think she just came out and said and we
both had this like just moment, and I was like,
thank you for showing and she was like, I really

(32:23):
needed to tell you that because you've been so honest,
and you know, he's just such my child. And I
get very emotional, and I think it is because of
this talking about the hard things. Sometimes it does help
other people, and it gives them permission, and it gives
people hope, and it gives a sisterhood bond and all
of the things, you know.

Speaker 5 (32:42):
And g It is also so crazy when people ask
those questions, like when people say, oh, is it your
egg or whatever, it's really for most people just to
throw away question out of fascination. It doesn't change anyone
else's view. Like the people that I've talked to about
it and things, they don't go ask oh, so they
usually ask me, is it any of it yours? You know?

(33:03):
That was the other thing, the other reason why I
said to Lisa, we have to be really clear in
the book, like what the genetics are, because I want
it to be really clear that it's not a sibling
genetically to my children, just so that you know, clarity
around the whole.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
Process of it.

Speaker 5 (33:18):
And people would say to me, is it your egg?
And I'd say no, it's none of my genetic material.
Oh is it her egg then?

Speaker 4 (33:24):
And I'd say no, it's a donor egg and they're like, oh, okay, cool.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
So how does that work?

Speaker 4 (33:28):
Like that's the end of it.

Speaker 5 (33:29):
And so Lisa, when you talk about that other mother,
like she obviously has so many feelings around that. Other
people are not judging it, like we're all just excited
for you that you've got a baby. Noone else is
worrying about it to the level we worry about our
own stuff.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yeah, And I think that's the conversation. There are so
many beautiful ways to you know, I would adopt another
twenty or you know, foster, which the cards I just want.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
I think, so that's a really great point, that there
is just a lot of curiosity, Like there's either curiosity
from people who are never going to be considering surrogacy
or adoption for themselves. Like a lot of people ask
if I want to find my biological parents, and it's
not because they have biological parents, like it's just a question.
They're just really interested, And I think you can tell
when it's not loaded with any emotional criticism, they just

(34:20):
I think it's one of those areas where often the linguistics,
like the language that's used can trigger people who are
emotionally involved, but from people who aren't, they just accidentally
use the wrong words because they've because we don't talk
about it enough, Which is why I really like that
you guys not only spoke at length about the emotional
side to prepare anyone going through it that it is

(34:41):
a very very emotionally charged and complex area, but you
also go through the non emotional logistics for curiosity's sake,
So you talk about like legally, what did you have
to do the wording? Like sayah, I think one of
your chapters was how we're going to word this is it?
It's your pregnancy Lisa's baby, and suddenly that helps you,
guys with your boundaries, Like you need to have a

(35:02):
non emotional side of curiosity questions as well. So maybe Sarah,
can you lay out sort of the mechanics of once
you guys decided that you were going to do this,
how did you work out sort of who decides what
you eat during pregnancy and who goes to what appointments?
And how do the costs work and deciding your birth
plan and you know, all of those kind of like

(35:24):
how did you work out the phone logistic? You know,
like all of those things, Like suddenly you've got to
decide because this is a beautiful family of four bringing
like a fifth member in you know.

Speaker 5 (35:37):
Yeah, I mean the logistics were crazy because you've got
four parents who are you know, me and my husband
and Lisa and Stephen. All of us have our own
busy careers and lives, and for us, we had three
kids as well, and we're trying to fit in this pregnancy.

Speaker 4 (35:52):
So it was crazy.

Speaker 5 (35:53):
And we go into heaps of detail in the book
about all of those specific logistics and the money and
the decisions and the contracts and all that stuff, and
I think really we approached it like one of Lisa's
superpowers is to find that glimmer of hope and possibility
and hold onto that, And that's like the approach we
took for everything. So even at the very beginning, when

(36:13):
I spoke to my surgeon and said, hey, I want
to get pregnant.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
I want to have my friend's.

Speaker 5 (36:17):
Baby, and he was like, I said I want to
get pregnant, and he was like, what are you talking about.
I thought you had done with kids and I was like, no,
I'm done, but I'd really like to be a surrogate
for a friend.

Speaker 4 (36:26):
And he was like, oh okay. He's like, look, I'm
not used to this.

Speaker 5 (36:29):
Like in the thousands of these surgeries I've done, we
don't normally then have a baby afterwards. But he's like,
let me go check it out and I'll come back
to you. And when he came back, he didn't say like, yes,
go ahead, you're all clear. He kind of said, look,
you can do it. You can't have twins because that's
way too risky, but you can do it. Just hope
he's not too big, or hope the baby's not too big,
and we'll get to the other side and see what

(36:49):
damage there is, and we'll repair it and fix it then.
And for a lot of people that's a no, you know,
like for a lot of people that would be this
is too risky. Like my surgeon basically said that there's
a risk of damage, so we can't really move forward.
But I saw, Oh, so you're telling me there's a
chance there's a chance that I could get pregnant and
it could be fine. So that's the chance we're holding

(37:10):
on too. And I think that's Lisa's approach to everything,
like look through all the weeds and the muck for
the where's that little jew drop of sunshine that says
we can do this? So that's what we did through
the whole pregnancy. And there were honestly a lot of
hard conversations we didn't have. Like we knew at the
beginning that I couldn't have twins, but we didn't talk

(37:31):
about what that would mean. Like we knew both of
us knew if we get pregnant with twins, we're gonna
have to reduce one. I'm getting like goosebumps now at
how horrible that would have been. Yeah, but we just
really didn't like plot the what ifs of the negative
out until each one happened, until a situation happened. So

(37:52):
it was an enormous amount of trust, particularly for Lisa
because I was the one carrying a baby, but also
they could have been curly sity tuations because it was
their child, right, So if we did get to a
point and you know, the thing about anyone who's who's
been pregnant before knows there's no definitive diagnoses in pregnancy.
Usually it's usually all a numbers game.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
So you get the.

Speaker 5 (38:13):
All the testing and stuff, and they'll go there's a
chance of this, So you know, they could have been
a chance of you might have an abnormality. Those questions
where they say do you want to continue with the
pregnancy or not, we would have had to make those
decisions as four and like their baby my uterus, there
just could have been so much complexity, but we really
just chose to approach it all really optimistically. We had

(38:35):
the most incredible obstetrician who held her hand with so
much grace and compassion and just walked us through everything,
and we were so supported with him. So I think
between the group of us, we just were able to
handle everything that came. And there was a lot of
complexity through it. Even just one of the small things
was that I had a higher risk of high blood

(38:55):
pressure simply because it was not my genes. So when
they did the risk profiling, they said, because it's not
your genetic material, your body recognizes that and it kind
of gets a little bit itchy and it raises your
blood pressure, which then increases your risk of preaclamps here
and all sorts of really dangerous potential conditions. So then
I had to be on daily aspirin from like six

(39:16):
weeks of pregnancy. So there were so many little things
like that that came up, and we just chose at
every step to be as optimistic as possible, face the
facts head on when they're in front of us, but
just really stay.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
Present and grounded in the moment.

Speaker 5 (39:29):
And I think we were all just so focused on
the excitement of the baby, like what we're doing this
for that that helped really keep us motivated.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
I think that's so beautiful for life generally, particularly fertility journeys,
but life generally that we do spend an enormous amount
of time worrying about situations that haven't actually happened yet,
and like, sure, you need a bit of rainy day planning.
But I think we sort of dwell in the like
let's worry fifty five steps ahea head when you're kind

(40:01):
of just bringing about more negativity than is necessary. And
I love that you just like you had enough things
to think about. I mean, you guys are all working
full time, You've got lives going on aside from trying
to do this miracle that I love that you just
you make a choice to kind of bring a certain
attitude and approach towards something, and I think that does
carry it through. And it wasn't all rosy, like I

(40:23):
think I didn't know. I'd forgotten between the first reading
and the second reading of the book that you actually
had a chemical pregnancy first in this process, so you
got pregnant and then it didn't go ahead, and all
of you had to choose We're still going to try
again after everything that you've been through. I mean that
in itself is like the definition of optimism. And thank

(40:43):
god you did, because every yes along the way resulted
in HUGO. But I mean, yeah, the logistics of that,
like least, for example, can you sort of talk through
the I don't want to make you go too far
into the sort of US experience, but just how in
Australia it's altruistic. And then the legalities of like what
are your obligations to Sarah and what was legally obliged?

Speaker 2 (41:05):
What did you choose to do.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Like what is the framework that kind of guides you
guys through that whole pregnancy and then birth, because I
know the birth certificate was Sarah first and you have
to change that immediately, like all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, so I won't going to the detail his but
we did actually go down a path in the US
which was going to cost about four hundred and fifty
thousand dollars, of which about forty thousand only goes to
the surrogate. So a lot of people make it a
lot of money over there, and we had a really

(41:40):
hideous experience. However, I have heard of people having, you know,
amazing experiences. It was just not meant to be for us.
So I think everything is relative, right, I say, Now, oh,
Australia and having you know, this birth with Sarah was
just like a breeze, I mean says absolutely right. There

(42:00):
was a lot of hurdles and logistics and paperwork and things.
I think everything in life is perspective readiness. It's situational
and you know, dependent on you know, where you've come from.
And because I've been through so much already, by the
time we landed here, I was like, oh, this is
a breeze. When I say it's a breeze to get

(42:23):
to the point of you know, putting an embryor into
Sarah basically means that it needed to be you know,
someone's DNA. So whether it be my eggs as I
had had them, you know, extracted many times before, I
would have had to do that because we didn't end
up using my eggs. Ultimately, we had to go through
two rounds of IBF with a beautiful Ukrainian woman. When

(42:47):
we were actually trying to do the collection in the Ukraine,
it was actually COVID so we couldn't get the eggs out.
And then it was like the war, so you know,
you throw in a bit.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Of a global politics and a pandemic, you know you
can't plan for that.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah. So see that's why I'm saying it's relative because
for me, by the time we decided to you know,
go down the rut of surrogacye, we actually had embryos
in the freezer. But to get the embryos, yeah, you
need to extract eggs from somewhere. You know, Steven has
to go and do his and then and then put

(43:27):
them together and then they need to be implanted. In
Australia it is autruistic, so you cannot pay anyone, and
there's a lot of sort of Facebook groups and then
I mean, this is another reason we want to shine
a light on it. There's a lot of really sort
of underground things I think going on in Australia where
we've heard some terrible things about you know, mismatched people

(43:49):
through dodgy Facebook groups and things like that. So there
is something in a way to be said potentially for
the agency. I just think maybe there's a slightly lesser
model than the four hundred thousand dollars plus. Yeah, so
I think in Australia, you know, it is best and
certainly Sarah and I would absolutely testify to this now

(44:09):
that you undergo with someone who is a friend who
you know you've both done quite a lot of therapy
and you're able to have the hard conversations and really
have extraordinary lines of communication, because I think that's really
an absolute imperative and as Sarah and I have talked
about as well, there probably needs to be a lot
more psychology and therapy throughout. All that happened was essentially

(44:34):
we had to have therapy as a foursome, so Sarah
and David, Steven and I all together. We also had
to have therapy separately each one of the four of
us just to doubly check in on everything. And then
we had to fill out some sort of psych tests
and things. So that was at the beginning, just to
make sure there's no anomalies that were all kind of

(44:54):
on the same page. The therapist as some great questions
which there has alluded to some around you know what
happens if just to make sure that we'd actually thought about,
you know, if the baby has done syndrome or if
because all four of us could have had different kind
of takes on it. So we sort of did some
of the thinking up front. But I think both of
us do think it would be useful to continue through

(45:17):
with therapy and just really check in with all four
parties throughout. And then there's the legals, so Sah and
I both needed to have separate lawyers just to you know,
go through I mean, I think it's just a lot
of people getting paid a lot of money for I mean,
this is your background background from way before, you know
how the legal system works. So our lawyer was beautiful though,

(45:42):
a beautiful, beautiful man who had also gone through surrogacy himself.
And then we financially can cover anything that I would
be doing myself, So any sort of maternity where or
compression stockings or medical bills or you know, anything to
do with that that I would be doing. Anyway, we
can cover any and all of that for sair. But

(46:04):
you're not allowed to really color too much outside of
the lines. So that was that the birth certificate. Yes,
I mean, I think Australia has a lot lot of
catching up to do in terms of the bureaucracy and
red tape. And says better talking about this because she's
much more analytical white in this way. But essentially what

(46:25):
I will say is we use Hugo's Medicare cards there
for the first time today. He's eighteen months and two
days old, and we had to take him for his
eighteen month backs and like to have his actual Medicare card,
which we didn't have until about a month ago, and
we didn't have his birth until he was I think
was it fourteen months? Thirteen months? Yeah, And in fact,

(46:48):
after his first birthday we were still in the High
Court second correction on any of this via zoom with
me being questioned, I mean, it makes my blood boil,
but by some sort of eighty year old gray headed
man and bank slightly whatever, but pretty much who was saying,
are you sure you tried hard enough to have a baby,

(47:11):
And I'm like, hang on a minute, before they can
hand over the proper parentage order or whatever to us,
And I was like, hang on a minute. My child is,
you know, thirteen months old. We've just had his first
birthday party, and you're questioning now if I tried hard enough,
and I was like, I don't know. So I do
think there's somewhere between what's going on in the US

(47:35):
and what's going on in Australia that we need to
kind of bring the two slightly closer together in terms
of eradicating some of the you know, bureaucracy and red
tape and ridiculous lines of questioning, but also removing a
lot of the barriers which are prohibitive in the US
in terms of the monetary side of it. Is kind
of so over the top and ridiculous and really reserve

(47:59):
for you know this, who can't be bothered to carry
their own baby or whatever it is, I think a
lot of the time. So I think we need to
bring it together a lot more.

Speaker 5 (48:08):
And I think for added context there the process that
we all went through, Like with that court that Lisa's
talking about. These are not judges who are used to surrogates.
There's only one hundred surrogate bursts in Australia a year.
So that court, with that judge, that is a family
court that is designed to deal with like the most
complex and difficult custody cases. So even though I can

(48:31):
I can understand why Lisa was so like triggered by
the line of questioning that's such an important part of
like that process because he's normally sitting there going right,
So the mom is doing, what the dad is doing?

Speaker 1 (48:44):
What?

Speaker 4 (48:45):
Why am I here? Why am I in court? Why
are we looking at this? So even though to him
he was just stating the facts.

Speaker 5 (48:50):
Okay, so the mum has done sixteen rounds, Okay, So
he's just like literally slicing Lisa's heart.

Speaker 4 (48:55):
Open in the court.

Speaker 5 (48:56):
Yeah, but I actually am fully in support of that,
because this is the mechanism that supports and protects children
who are in these really difficult, difficult situations. So that's
another part of where there's I guess the sensitivity is
missing because he just walked in that morning, Lisa was
one of you know, twenty cases. He's hearing and he's

(49:17):
just going through the facts, but she wasn't expecting, you know,
I'm going to get my son is legally going to
be recognized as my son today, And instead it's like
this whole nother tranch of like what was it?

Speaker 4 (49:30):
What did you go through? Again? Oh, we're just going
to lay it all out again.

Speaker 5 (49:33):
Like there's so many parts of this journey that can
be reactivating, I guess, and takes a lot to get
through it all.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
Yeah, And I think the more or the less uncommon
it becomes, and particularly as there are like so so
many fertility challenging fertility journeys where people haven't ended up
in adoption or sorry, I guess he purely because they
don't actually know how you can do it, or they
do start as you did with adoption, Lise, and it
was too difficult. Like the barriers are absolutely outrageous considering

(50:04):
how many matches of desperate families who are desperate for
children and children who desperately need homes, like the mismarriage
is just so frustrating to see sometimes. But yeah, I
mean for anyone who does who is more interested in
the logistics, the Lisa and there in the book just
give so much detail.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
But just now that.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
We've cut, like outside of the logistics, I would love
to ask, and only if you're comfortable talking about it,
because I know it does bring it all up again,
But just emotionally, I think my fascination personally is in
how things do transcend DNA. So Lise, I would love
to talk to you about did you feel pregnant during
the pregnancy and what did the moment of birth kind

(50:44):
of feel like? And sayah, also, how did having had
three pregnancies where you did have a genetic match physiologically
and emotionally, what it felt like caring for someone else
and how your interaction like with your body and your
brain through the pregnancy was going and same at the
moment of birth, Like what was it like for four

(51:05):
of you being involved?

Speaker 6 (51:07):
Was it similar different?

Speaker 5 (51:10):
Like?

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Yeah, what did what did you guys feel kind of.
I mean, that's such a big question.

Speaker 5 (51:13):
But the sparknized version, Yeah, for anyone who loves the
birth story, we give like the full blow by blow
in the book.

Speaker 6 (51:23):
I love Oh, I loved it.

Speaker 4 (51:24):
Yeah, so I love it when people share their stories.
But we've got all the full details in there. But yeah,
a big question.

Speaker 5 (51:32):
I think I hoped going into this that I would
have a really healthy level of disconnection to the pregnancy.
And I know that's like quite a strong word, but
I was really hoping I wouldn't become super attached to
this baby, and I'm thankful that's exactly what happened. I
was always really protective of him and really like connected
to what we were doing. But I never felt like

(51:54):
his mum ever. It never felt like it was my baby.
I was never I was never like thinking. And I
think one of the big things is though, like when
you're having a baby, you're thinking ahead to like the
first Christmas, and you're thinking of other milestones. When I
was pregnant with my son Jesse, I would be thinking of, like, oh,
he's due in January. That's the same month my eldest
was starting preschool, and so I was like imagining, oh

(52:16):
my gosh, I'm going to be carrying like a tiny
little baby into her first day of school, and you're
imagining your future with this child.

Speaker 4 (52:23):
And I was never doing that.

Speaker 5 (52:24):
I was imagining him being born and then just going
back to my life. So that created an instant and
healthy boundary, so that it was just a beautiful pregnancy.
I think pregnancy is miraculous, like.

Speaker 4 (52:37):
The process of it.

Speaker 5 (52:38):
I just don't understand how it starts as a microscopic
cell and becomes a human.

Speaker 4 (52:43):
So I'm always I still.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Think about that every day.

Speaker 6 (52:46):
Yeah, just wild.

Speaker 5 (52:47):
So I was always really just at the whole time,
I just was like, what a miracle this is, Like
I'm carrying this baby for my friends, Like what.

Speaker 4 (52:54):
An extraordinary thing to be part of.

Speaker 5 (52:56):
I just always felt really like blessed about it the
whole time.

Speaker 4 (53:00):
It was amazing.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
And I love that you did include like the hormonal
let down kind of immediately after birth, that you did
give yourself time and a few days to kind of
you know, your body has evacuated a human, so of
course it's going to be sort of.

Speaker 6 (53:14):
Like whoa, whoa.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
But I love that you were also able to keep
this umbrella of like, I know what I'm doing here,
and we're all doing this together, and this is my role.
I'm not ye creating kind of the future memories. At least,
did you feel pregnant, because I know you. You would
say like, I'm pregnant, you know, and I'm having a baby,
and like your body did things like what the hell?

Speaker 1 (53:37):
So I did feel pregnant the whole time. I'm not
talking so much about the physicality of it, but I
am one thousand percent un question. I'm really talking about
the emotion of it and the depth of connection around
being pregnant. And you know, I think I've been writing

(53:58):
books on this stuff forever and I'm you know, spiritual,
and I've really honed my mind set on a number
of different things, and I'm very big on the languaging.
So yes, I would always say to people I'm pregnant,
and I would believe that one hundred percent that I
am pregnant, like it was. So I think everything is
in you know, language and belief has so much to

(54:19):
do with feeling. And then also, you know, I was
just like this crazy person who I just loved it.
I would go into baby shops and like try on
carriers and like put a little baby in there, like
I would all these things constantly. I you know, the
pram I used to we had this. I seriously ended

(54:40):
up buying like a pretend baby and I would wheel
him around like I was so pregnant. But also the
wildest thing happens, And I think this is the beauty
of that time with Sarah and I together. I have
never felt as connected to a human in my life,

(55:02):
no one, not my mother, not anyone as I did
with Sarah, because we were just so in sync, you know.
And it's like having a best friend who you're calling
or texting or dming like you know, or facetiming or
seeing in persons like multiple times a day, and so
having someone to share that journey in parallel was just
like the most exciting thing I could ever imagine. And

(55:26):
things would happen like I've not had. I think I've
had antibiotics like once or twice in my life. I've
never had them. And then Sarah had a kidney infection
and had to go on to antibiotics. And then the
next day, like I weirdly got some infection in my
finger from gardening, and I had to go to antibiotics, Like,
there was just so many things, you know, And like Sarah,

(55:50):
often we'd be out at lunch or something and she'd
be like, oh, I need to go and be sick,
and I'd be like, oh, do I go? Stick my fingers?

Speaker 4 (56:01):
But clear I always encouraged her not to No, no,
you're good.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
I was like, we're in this together, though, let's go.
So I did feel pregnant the whole time, and you know,
that becomes slightly confusing for onlookers when I'm so, you know,
the brosely saying I'm seven months pregnant, and they look
down and they're like, wow, oh yeah, but my baby's

(56:32):
and someone else's tummy, and but like it was almost
like I had to explain it because I'm like, what
do you mean you can't see them?

Speaker 4 (56:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (56:39):
Can you see my baby that I bought in my carrier?

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Yeah? And then sad the opposite because she looked obviously pregnant.
But then people would be like congratulations and she'd be like,
oh no, it's not mine or David her hobby would
be like, oh no, no, it's not.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
My baby, like it was.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
You know, different stuff.

Speaker 6 (57:03):
Oh my gosh, well I love yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
How well, you guys kind of tackle those unique eccentricities
of such a unique situation with such humor and grace
in the book. And least also the fact that you
had skinner skin like straight away and that there was
never a moment. I think I cried when I read
you just saying that He's there's never been a moment
where you aren't Hugo's mom, like the whole way through,

(57:28):
it's just so and said that there's been no moment
where you did feel that way.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Yeah, and so like you said with your mom, the
mannerisms already, like all the way through, it is the
wildest thing. How often I'll look over and he's like
doing something like it's just like just very very similar.
And he overheats. I overheat.

Speaker 6 (57:51):
I mean, I mean you live up north, so that's
kind of also.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Easiest thing.

Speaker 5 (58:00):
It was a hot day and we both got we
were sweating.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
Oh my god, job, I don't want to take away
from anything. People are like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 7 (58:11):
The sides, there are sides, lots of them, but yeah,
it's pretty well and yeah, the skin to skin the birth,
which says that we do go into a lot of
detailing the power.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
Too, but it's beautiful things. I think this is where
sometimes you can watch a movie about a romance and
you're like, oh, that's how my life is. This was
the opposite. It was like, I feel like I've watched
movies and berths and they whisked the baby away and
they do whatever they do and they clean them up.
So in my mind, I was like, they're going to
take him, They're going to take him. And literally I

(58:43):
caught him. I delivered my own baby, and then Stephen
cut the cord and then Hugo came straight onto my
chest and no one took him away. They didn't clean him.
They just like I did everything, and that's where he stayed.
It wasn't until we went to weigh him, like a
few hours later. I think, like, no one took my baby.

(59:05):
And the beautiful moment was once I had my time
with him and Saa was kind of out of her
parallel universe of being, you know, all the situations that
were happening for her. I took hu go over and together,
I you know, put him onto her chest and like
just that moment of us together was just so amazing.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
I have goosebumps again.

Speaker 6 (59:29):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
I mean what a remarkable, beautiful story, and the name
is so perfect, the power of two. It is truly
like what you were able to achieve together is a
human being who's a happy little eighteen month old who's
got the whole world ahead of him. Like that is
just pure magic.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
It's definitely the most special, extraordinary thing in the world.
And I'm just so glad. I mean that doesn't even
touch the surface that you know, I never gave up.
I mean yeah, and that's you know, was there for
me and unquestionably all the way through, and you know,

(01:00:11):
for that, I am forever and eternally grateful from the
moment of me saying, oh hey, he's still interested in
being a sorry girl. From that moment, so I was like, oh,
well I have had, you know, all this surgery, but
let me just go check like the whole way through.
And I think my whole life for some reason, which

(01:00:32):
has made me who I am and tenacious and resilient
and have the ability to overcome things. I think I've
you know, as many of us have been let down
many times, and so I just learned but not once ever,
every single time, Sale was just calm, cool and collected
and she's like, oh, I'll just find that out and yell,
let's go. And even you know when we did when

(01:00:53):
the first baby on round seventeen didn't take, and then
I was like, oh god, will she want to do
it again? And you know, straight away it says it
wasn't even like let's wait a month. I was like, yeah,
how quickly can we do it? So she's been there
like an absolute rock and waveringly the entire way through.
And I think that's really what one of the really

(01:01:15):
important messages in the book as well. It's not, yes,
Scus is the true story, but this is about the
power of friendship and the power of community, and the
power of being vulnerable enough to say I need something,
and the power of if you have the ability to
help someone, step up and help them, you know. And
on that someone reached out to me on Instagram. Funnily

(01:01:35):
enough a few days ago and said, oh, hey, I've
been wanting to reach out to you for like the
last year and offer to be a surrogate for you,
but I thought that you'd just be inundated. Well no,
I haven't been in undated, but so I think, just
never be afraid to offer you know if you see
someone struggling or you see someone needing something, offer because
you never know, like what an impact and how much

(01:01:58):
that can help someone else.

Speaker 6 (01:01:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Absolutely, And I love as well, Sarah, how open you've
been to like your whole family. It's Lisa, you said
it takes a village. It's not just Sarah, it's Sarah's
family and the three kids. Like, I love how much
you still are all catching up all the time, and
everyone's in each other's lives, and what a beautiful story
for the ages, like for all of the family members,

(01:02:20):
Like everyone is involved in this beautiful little child and
part of his world.

Speaker 6 (01:02:24):
And my god, I could talk about this forever.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
I've realized that it's past twelve, and I know you
need to go, Lisa, but just you are both remarkable,
extraordinary women for doing it and sharing it with everyone.
And Hugo is just magical. I cannot wait for Teddy
and Hugo to meet, and just thank you both.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Well, thank you Sarah and Sarah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
Oh well, for anyone who is interested in more detail,
there is so much I mean, like literally so much
honesty and openness and detail in the power of two emotionally, logistically,
everything you would ever want to know, and I'll also
include links in the notes to Lisa's page, sales page,
wherever you might want to go to get other resources.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
But thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Both so much, and congratulations on everything.

Speaker 4 (01:03:12):
Amazing, Thank you so much, Thank you, Ah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
I learned so much in this episode, and I still
feel like we didn't scrape the surface.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
I really do wish I could just read the entire
book out to you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
In fact, maybe for some episodes I should do an
audiobook in chapters of books that I've really enjoyed, I
highly recommend you grab a copy of the Power of Two.
It is not just about surrogacy, but also tenacity, resilience, friendship,
thinking outside the box, and just the grit of sticking
with a goal. For goodness me eight years. I will
pop the link in the show notes and share links

(01:03:44):
to Lisa and Sarah's socials and pages as well. To
anyone on their own journey, I hope there may have
been a glimmer of hope or a small piece of
information that helped you on your way, or sparked something
that you might not have felt.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Or thought about before.

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
I truly believe that our earlier struggles for Nick and
I personally at least were all because our little Teddy
was just waiting before his time. But in the moment,
it can be one of the most emotionally grueling, complex, confusing,
and exhausting times of your life. I've been there, so
I absolutely understand Sending so much love to all of you.
And if there is any other topic like surrogacy that

(01:04:18):
you'd like to hear more about on Caesar Baby, or
a particular guest or expert that you'd like to hear from,
please do always send me a DM or an email.
I also often run out of ideas and love to
hear your requests or your perspectives, so love this to
be a neighborhood production. In the meantime, we will be
back soon with a regular guest episode.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
I hope you are.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
Having a wonderful start to the year.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
January just has flown by.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
I kind of feel like every year I just make
February first the start of my new year.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
I hope you guys are all seizing your yay.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Father am regent, a father, a humanly residing from