November 27, 2024 • 45 mins
Ever wondered how the pros polish that gripping thriller or heartwarming romance? Prepare to unlock the secrets of fiction editing with Siobhan from Motif Edits and our fiction lead, Rami, as they guide you through the art and craft of storytelling. We introduce the intriguing process of "murder boarding," aimed at empowering writers with constructive critique for their works-in-progress. Learn how to craft captivating novel openers, establish a compelling point of view, and choose the perfect tense to ground your narrative right from the start.
Experience the tension and thrill that comes from masterful dialogue and actions. Our analysis of a scene with high school friends Rosie and Hadley will open your eyes to the nuances of character dynamics and genre expectations. Discover how simple changes—like replacing a coffee cup with a soda—can enhance reader clarity and immersion. Dive into the world of contemporary romance with us, as we evaluate dialogue and tone to bring characters like Friedrich to life, debating whether sharp or soft language best captures reader attention.
In our final segment, we shift focus to the world of science fiction, dissecting a student’s narrative for insight into maintaining tension and clarity. We stress the importance of active, goal-oriented characters across genres, and caution against the pitfalls of passive protagonists. Plus, we explore the invaluable resources available at selfpublishing.com for fiction authors seeking to elevate their craft. Join us in this engaging episode of the Self-Publishing School podcast, where fiction takes center stage, and your writing journey gains a new, invigorating direction.
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Must-watch episodes:
- SPS 044: Using A Free + Shipping Book Funnel with Anik Singal
- SPS 115: Using Atomic Habits To Write & Publish A Book with James Clear
- SPS 127: Traditional vs. Self Publishing: Which You Should Choose with Ruth Soukup
- SPS 095: The Five Love Languages: Selling 15 Million Copies with Gary Chapman
- SPS 056: How I Sold 46M Copies of My Self Published Book with Robert Kiyosaki
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, chandler Bolt here, Welcome back to another
special episode of theSelf-Publishing School podcast.
We're in the middle of thefiction takeover.
Rami and the fictioneers havetaken over the podcast for the
month of November, so forNaNoWriMo, and this week we're
talking about editing.
So we've got another specialguest.
If you're watching this on theYouTube channel, you can see all
(00:28):
three of us.
If not, well, you'll hear us.
So we've got Siobhan here, we'vegot Rami here and I'm going to
pass it to Rami in just a second.
But Siobhan, she has a companycalled Motif Edits, works with a
lot of our authors and ourfiction programs that Rami runs,
and this week we're talkingabout fiction editing, like you
(00:50):
said.
So week one was about sevenfigure fiction, learning from
the trenches with Steve Higgs.
Week two we talked aboutfiction covers.
So really, really insightfulepisode.
Hopefully you guys love that,jake Caleb, and this week we
talk about editing.
So we're going to keep workingthrough kind of the core pillars
.
So with that I'll pass it toRami, who many of you know has
(01:14):
created all the fiction programsand the head of fiction here at
Self-Publishing School hashelped hundreds, if not
thousands, of authors publishbooks.
So pass it to you, rami, youcan tee up Siobhan, and let's
roll.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you so much.
This is the part where Iembarrass Siobhan, and so I'm
pre-apologizing for that one.
So, Siobhan, it was or is, Iguess actually you're going to
have to correct my grammar onthis one was or is my seventh
editor, right?
So I went through six othereditors before I finally found
(01:47):
the one, and I'm never leavingSiobhan.
This is a relationship for life, Siobhan, because you will edit
everything I do forever, andsince I have 60 books out,
that's a lot of books that youhave edited of mine.
So I'm sorry, I guess is whatI'm trying to say here.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
So I think that would be is.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So she is my seventh editor, okay, so.
So, siobhan, I know you and Ihad talked about what we wanted
to do on this call and I amgoing to let you name it, what
you actually name it.
But in the school, we havesomething that we refer to as
murder boarding.
Now, if you don't have amilitary background and or have
(02:32):
never heard the term, no, we arenot trying to kill anyone.
What it is is, it'sconstructive feedback.
But we're not going to hold back, we're not holding back any
punches.
We're not holding back anythoughts.
We're not holding back anypunches.
We're not holding back anythoughts.
The goal here is to give you,to the minutiae, every little
bit that you can improve aboutyourself in as constructive a
(02:52):
way as possible, so that you canbe the best version of yourself
.
And when we do murder boardingin the school, well, I asked
Siobhan, who has murder boardedso many of my books, right, if
she would murder board some ofthe students opening pages,
because, let's be honest, thatfirst page sells the book, right
?
And so now Siobhan offersmurder boarding as a service, or
(03:14):
what do you actually call it?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Murder boarding.
Yeah, it's become so ubiquitousnow.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
That's awesome, I love it.
All right.
Well, I know you had a apresentation, so why don't you
take it away?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
okay, um, thanks so much for having me on.
This is really exciting for mebecause you know I've been
working with students with fromthe school, um, for years now
and um, I'm just very excitedabout both spcom as well as um
helping write the best bookspossible.
That's always been basicallythe reason I got into editing.
(03:50):
So let's dive in.
I'm going to share my screen,okay, can you all see this?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yes.
I'm going to play Okay Is.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Is that you're seeing that?
that looks perfect, yep um, yeah, so, um, basically, what I'm
going to be talking about todayis these openers to great novels
.
We're going to be looking atthem in three genres thriller,
romance and sci-fi, um, and thenwe're going to be looking at
student submissions in each ofthose genres and, um, the
(04:26):
original submission and then howI think it might be stronger
and why.
So, before I dive into thethree genres, I think it's
really crucial here to cover thefour elements of what I call a
killer opener, keeping with themurder board theme, and the
first of them is point of viewand tense.
(04:48):
So readers many of them who arenot trained as writers or to
know how to write or read like awriter, are not thinking about
this consciously, but they dohave subconscious expectations
for getting answers to thesethings right away when they open
a book.
Expectations for gettinganswers to these things right
away when they open a book, so,very quickly, they want to know
(05:12):
whose head we're in, what POVand what tense we're in.
So this typically is firstperson or third person for POV,
and then typically present tenseor past tense.
There's obviously more optionsthan that, but these are the
most common.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I would just like to interject on one point.
I don't care who you are, neverwrite in second person, it just
doesn't work, that's it.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
There you go.
Okay, that's right, rami hastold you never write in second
person.
It obviously doesn't work wellfor selling books usually.
That's right.
And the second thing they'relooking for is grounding when
are we?
Because when we open a book, wecould be anywhere.
We could be on Earth, we couldbe in outer space, we could be
inside a whale's belly.
We just don't know until thewriter gives us the answer.
(05:55):
And so we're kind of floatingin this formless void.
Um, the third thing and this isthe thing that's in basically
every single good opener israising questions in the
reader's mind.
You want to raise intrigue sothat they can only get those
(06:16):
questions answered, that thatsource of intrigue answered by
reading on.
Um, and so there's two types ofquestions you can raise good
ones and bad ones.
So a good question is if inyour first line someone's in a
hurry, the point of intrigue iswhere are they going and why are
they in a hurry?
This is a question they can getanswered by reading on and it
(06:38):
keeps them inside your story.
Bad questions create confusion.
So between the first and thesecond line we might change POV
entirely or change tense, andthis might confuse readers.
They might say well, whose headare we in, what tense are we in
?
And in this way they feeloutside the story.
(06:59):
They're not in the dream ofyour world.
So you never want to confusereaders with questions like that
.
You want to keep them insideyour story.
This is crucial.
And then, lastly, this ties inwith questions.
Often a way of creatingquestions is creating tension,
bringing up problems.
So not all of these have to bein every great opener, or
(07:24):
especially the first line, likeyou'll see a lot of great first
lines that only have one or twoof these.
Some have all four, but the onethat you pretty much always are
going to encounter is raisingquestions in the reader's mind.
So, with these four elements inmind, let's go through some
great openers.
We'll start with thrillers.
(07:48):
So I picked the Silence of theLambs by Thomas Harris.
I picked great openers to booksthat were made into movies or
TV shows.
This is one of the greatestmovies in my opinion.
So the opening paragraph goesBehavioral science.
(08:08):
The FBI section that deals withserial murder is on the bottom
floor of the academy building atQuantico, half buried in the
earth.
Clarice Starling reached it,flushed, after a fast walk from
Hogan's Alley.
On the firing range.
She had grass in her hair andgrass stains on her FBI Academy
windbreaker from diving to theground under fire in an arrest
(08:30):
problem on the range.
So, thinking about those fourelements in that first line, we
get a great sense of groundingRight away.
We imagine this building, thebottom floor of the academy
building at quantico, halfburied in the earth.
It's a wonderful visual.
(08:50):
Um, and so we, right away, wefeel this kind of sense of
realism of being there on theground.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Um, in virginia, quantico, virginia, right um and
also sorry, just it also tiesthe serial killer, the
terminology half buried.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And it's funny because I know that Chandler
talks a lot about in inentrepreneurial spaces, right,
and the nonfiction space isabout embedding.
Right, like you're, you'reembedding these concepts, you're
embedding, you know what'scoming, you're embedding this in
.
In fiction, embedding is oftendone by language choice, where
(09:30):
the language choice directlyties to the bigger issue or the
theme, or you know, in this caseit's the serial killer.
We are dealing with multipleserial killers, half buried,
like you know.
What do serial killers do?
They bury their, their you knownot evidence.
Uh, what do you call theirvictims?
(09:50):
Right, you know.
So, yeah, it works really wellthis is.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I'm glad you brought that up, because this is
something I wanted to touch onwith regard to thrillers, um and
, and that is that thrillerreaders are expecting this sort
of language.
This gets them excited right Inthe first line.
We have serial murder, we haveFBI, we have half buried.
(10:15):
It's not a coincidence or anaccident that Harris included
the term half buried in theearth.
We can imagine not just abuilding, but a body.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Because we're talking about serial murder yeah, I
mean sorry.
Just that one word is so greatbecause it also implies
simultaneously someone who's inreal trouble, right, like
someone who's about to diebecause you buried the dead
right, while simultaneouslygiving hope and that's also a
thriller.
Expectation is that the hero isgoing to save someone.
(10:49):
We know people are going to die, but someone's going to get
saved.
So that's the half buried.
There's the hope and thedespair in just that one word.
Right, it's great yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Great point, yeah, and so you can see that language
in other parts of this firstparagraph too.
You know we see under fire,arrest problem, firing range
flushed.
You know she's in a rush aswell, and so we get lots of
tension in this first paragraphand questions why is she in such
(11:20):
a rush, why does she have grassall over her, and what's going
to happen at the behavioralscience building dealing with
serial murder?
And then the last thing I'dlove to point out here is you
know, one of the reasons ClariceStarling is often called one of
the greatest heroines isbecause she's simultaneously
(11:43):
vulnerable and a badass.
And you see that even in thisfirst paragraph, clarice, you
know, is a very specific woman'sname, right, and we see in the
movie that she's very small,right, we don't get that in this
first paragraph, but we knowshe's wearing her FBI academy
(12:05):
wind breaker.
She's just a trainee, um, she'sa woman, but she's like, really
a badass.
Already.
She's got grass everywhere, butshe doesn't even mind, she's,
she's got somewhere to be, um,and so you really get a
wonderful little portrait of herin this first paragraph.
I already, already, amcompelled by Clarice.
(12:25):
Okay, so I'm going to move onto a student submission in this
genre.
So this student writes under thepen name, gp Schumacher, and
she writes psychologicalthrillers, which Silence of the
Lambs is sometimes called, andthis was a book that she's
(12:50):
currently writing, and this isthe very opening two paragraphs.
It goes the military are youcrazy?
Rosie put down her coffee cupand stared at her friend who sat
across from her at their highschool cafeteria table.
Why the heck would you want togo into the military, hadley?
Hadley took a sip of her owncoffee, then gave her friend a
(13:10):
serious look, because noteveryone is as genius as you are
.
The average person isn'tguaranteed a full ride,
scholarship to college, andcertainly not to an Ivy League
school.
So she's actually doing somethings well here.
Um, right away, we have a senseof grounding, we know where
we're at um, and we also have,um, these two characters kind of
(13:32):
at odds a bit.
Um, they're having aconversation where you know one
is calling the other crazy.
Why the heck would you want todo this?
Um.
So there's some questionsraised, some some tension, that
grounding not totally clear.
On POV, we do have a clearsense of tense, but I do have
(13:52):
some suggestions for how thismight be stronger.
So I'm going to show you nowthe revisions I made.
So, with my revisions, this nowreads Rosie Mullins.
I gave her a fake last name.
I don't know if this is herlast name, but Rosie Mullins
lowered her soda and stared ather friend seated across from
(14:14):
her at their high schoolcafeteria the military.
Are you crazy?
Why would you want to enlistHadley?
Hadley sipped at her own soda.
She set the empty can down witha hollow clank.
Not everyone is a genius likeyou, rosie.
Most of us don't get a fullride to college, and certainly
not to Brown.
So why did I make the changes Imade here?
(14:35):
First, I really wanted to focusmore in on creating a sense of
tension from the beginning.
You know, based on the silenceof the lambs we get so much
tension in that opener and Iwanted to amplify the
disagreement between these twoand also this question of why
Rosie hates the military.
(14:57):
I wanted to draw all that out.
So in order to do that, Iutilized her internal thinking
and I also had Hadley set thecan down with a hollow clank.
I made that action do more workin terms of creating tension
and then I sort of modifiedHadley's dialogue to also get
(15:21):
the contention between them.
Second, I tightened the writing.
The original had some extrawords and I think it reduced
some of the power of the writing.
All these great openers thatyou're going to see, they are
tight, they do not have oneextra word, and so this is such
(15:42):
a crucial piece of advice alwayslook to where you can tighten
your writing.
It will greatly amplify itspower.
Third, I didn't do this herebecause I didn't see really
opportunities, but I suggestedto this writer to incorporate
suggestions of physicality orviolence In the Silence of the
(16:03):
Lambs opener we talked about.
Right, we have so many mentionsof serial murder.
Have buried um firing rangearrest problem, like we have all
of this suggestion of violence.
Right, and that's what thrillerreaders are reading for.
Is that the possibility ofviolence?
When is it going to come right?
(16:24):
And so you're kind of alwaysforeshadowing that in thrillers.
Um rami, do you have a thought?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I see you, yeah yeah, I have so, so much.
Yeah, I mean one of themistakes and this is something
that I'm always talking to withnew writers all the time right,
I, just I, I, probably I I mustsay this like three times a day
when I'm coaching, which is justyou know, it is imperative that
you're setting up theexpectations, and the thing is
(16:51):
is like I don't care what youwant to do with this book, if
you're not meeting the genreexpectations, it's not going to
work, and so, for example, inThriller, the genre expectations
is physical violence.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And there is always some form of well, I don't even
want to say, because you canargue that, like legal thrillers
have less physical violence.
There'll still be some, but youknow, there's a lot of
courtroom tension and courtroombattles, but there is two people
who are at battle with eachother and the stakes are life
(17:26):
and death.
They're not, they're not,they're not like.
The stakes are who gets to ownthe cat?
Right in the divorce, thestakes are life and death.
Right, someone is going toeither actually die or
metaphorically die in in in athriller.
That's one thing.
But then the other thing thatyou did, which I thought and I
(17:48):
and if I'm, if I'm like, likestealing your mojo here I
apologize, siobhan the one thingthat you did, or there's a lot
of improvements here.
But there's one thing inparticular that I wanted to
point out.
That is like I reallyunderstated genius.
Right, you changed.
You changed it from coffee, thecoffee cup which why do I need
(18:10):
a coffee cup to soda, and, and Ithink the reason why this is so
important is because they're inhigh school, and the, the, the,
the, the vision that a highschool student is, especially in
a high school cafeteria, aredrinking a coffee is jarring,
especially to an older reader,right, like you know, as an
(18:33):
older reader, the idea that acoffee would be in high school
was like a non-existent thing.
I don't know what these youngyou know millennials do, quite
honestly, like, that's the, youknow.
But in my day there was nocoffee in the school, all right,
unless you're in the teacher'slounge.
And, and so I think it is.
(18:55):
You know, that idea of, like,bad questions create confusion.
The confusion can be created byanything right and simply
saying a coffee cup in a highschool cafeteria when, well, it
seems that they're students andnot teachers, right?
Um, that creates just enoughconfusion for someone to be like
, oh my, sorry, I'm gonna shutup in one minute, but I'm gonna.
(19:19):
I will raise a, and so shavonnaand I have actually co-authored
a series together and one ofthe two series together.
That's right and one of the doyou remember the hercules
criticism?
For right.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
So uh, remind me okay .
Speaker 2 (19:34):
So in the opening scene of the book that had all
the right elements, hercules,cupid and two other full-grown
adults uh, get into a mustangand drive off.
They're being chased by a ghostdinosaur, if you remember this,
and mortality bound, right,yeah, right.
So that was definitely a JimButcher shout out on our part,
(19:59):
and I got feedback that was likewhat the hell's wrong with
these people?
They clearly don't know what aMustang is.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
I remember now yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Hercules is, is you know?
You describe him as the size ofarnold schwarzenegger.
Arnold schwarzenegger could notfit in the back of a mustang
right and they also.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
I gave it four doors, I think yeah, yeah, or
something like that yeah, it waslike how many doors was in
question?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
yeah, so these points of confusion.
Like you, we genuinely neverbothered to look up what a
Mustang looked like.
We both at the time didn't owncars.
I do now, but I didn't then,and yeah so, anyway, these
points matter is, I guess, whatmy point is.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
So that's exactly it.
Yeah, those are bad questions.
The coffee and the um themustang are both questions that
hold those readers.
I pulled me out of the storywith the coffee and um the
mustang, out of this, out of thestory for that other reader
yeah um, so that's a that's areally great point.
Um, the last thing that I wouldnote here is you know, with the
(21:07):
choice I made to give rosie alast name when we introduce her?
Uh, is you know with the choiceI made to give Rosie a last
name when we introduce her is ameeting thriller expectations?
Right, the first time we meetClarice, we see her as Clarice
Starling and it lends a certainthriller gravitas.
You know, like that, thischaracter will be fighting for
their life.
There's just, yeah, it's just athriller thing for their life.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
There's just, yeah, it's just a thriller thing.
Yeah, yeah, actually, on thatpoint, sorry to interrupt again,
but, um, do you?
We won't out him, just in casehe doesn't want to be out.
But you know jd kirk, right?
So he's an indie author whoswitched genres from sci-fi to
thriller and he's seven figuresand, uh, I don't know if you
know who he is, but you've methim, we both met him.
Anyway, when he was researchingthe thrillers, he literally
(21:53):
that point of the last name,first name, like it, was
something he brought up where henot only researched that, that
expectation of a full name, butalso the expectation of the kind
of full name, right, you know,and it, you know, kind of
getting that you know, middleAmerica, right, like down to
earth, right, generic, you knowthat kind of thing.
(22:13):
Like you know, these details domatter.
So Mullins is a perfect lastname.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
That's actually something I thought of without
really realizing.
I thought of it is like what'sa generic middle America name
that I could give her.
That's so true, it's very cool.
Yeah, okay, so if, with yourapproval, I'll move on, are?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
you happy Okay?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
So the next one is romance.
So I decided to pick a romancethat is really popular.
This one has 43,000 reviews onAmazon.
That also got made into a movie.
I picked one that iscontemporary romance because the
student submission is alsocontemporary.
So this one's called the HatingGame by Sally Thorne, and the
opening paragraph goes I have atheory Hating someone feels
(23:02):
disturbingly similar to being inlove with them.
I've had a lot of time tocompare love and hate and these
are my observations and she goesinto the observations and the
next paragraph is long so Ididn't include it.
But this one, I think, reallyexemplifies a couple things.
Right, we have the four elementsof a great opener that we've
(23:26):
examined.
Clearly, we have a very strongvoice here, a POV, that first
person, and it's really clearnarration.
But we also have a verydistinct romance voice.
Romance first person voicestend to be very sharp.
(23:47):
They tend to be witty, incisive.
They just carry you alongbecause there's a lot of kind of
monologuing that happens asthey're describing their life,
and so that is.
I think one of the most crucialelements in contemporary
romance is getting that voicedown really well, because
(24:10):
typically that's going to becarrying you along through the
novel.
Of course, there's also theother parts of the romance
formula, the plot.
That's crucial as well.
The happily ever after.
But when it comes to this,opener voice is so, so potent.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
It's also a voice that clearly demonstrates that
love is a choice, right likeright.
So it's because, because, likecontemporary romance, in which
the person can't like, is forcedto be in love, right like right
, it's not like an active actionto, you know, meeting the
(24:52):
person and like the dating andall overcoming the obstacles and
all that.
But you know, you're kind of inlike that 1800s, like you know,
damsel in distress kind of erais, is not you know?
So this person clearly feelslike someone who's in control,
like she's not going to justneedlessly get swept away until
she is right, until it's justoverwhelmingly this is what's
(25:14):
going to happen, right.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
So that's a great um point there, because it draws on
one of the biggest sources oftension in romance, which is
they.
They basically have to have ahuge reason why they would never
be with this person, and hatingthem is about as big a reason
as it gets.
So it's like readers will bewondering how does one overcome
(25:36):
this hate to be with someone?
That's why enemies to lovers isso, so popular.
So here's a student submission.
This is also contemporaryromance.
Um, she calls it spicy.
Um, so it's okay if I curse.
I hope it's not I won't, that'sfine okay, um, okay.
(26:01):
So, uh, this is victoria benoit,I think that's how you
pronounce her pen name.
Um, chapter one starts with themale, pov Friedrich.
Just a few passes around theroom and then we'll go.
Okay, I turn to look up at theman next to me.
I would generally be consideredtall, if not standing next to
my best friend who towers overeveryone in the room.
He leans to the side slightlyto hiss at me this is your last
(26:24):
night of freedom.
We should be living it up, notcrammed in some stuffy ballroom
with these fucking vipers.
Okay, so clearly this personhas a strong sense of the
edginess of contemporary romance.
She calls it spicy, right, andthere is spice already in these
first two paragraphs,particularly that last line
(26:44):
there paragraphs, particularlythat last line there.
One thing that I had troublewith is, personally, I couldn't
tell who was speaking right away.
I wasn't sure whose dialoguethat was, if it was the main
character or the best friend,and if I have trouble with
something, I usually assume thatother readers some may have
(27:06):
trouble with it too, because Idon't represent all readers, but
I certainly represent some, Ithink, and so that's what makes
dialogue very challenging as anopener.
So what I did.
This is just, personally, how Iwould strengthen it.
Many books open with dialoguevery successfully.
(27:30):
This is my revision.
What a nest of fucking vipers.
I lean toward my best friend towhisper just a few passes
around the room and then we'llgo.
Okay, between the two of us, wetower over everyone here.
He hisses at me this is yourlast night of freedom.
We should be living it up, notcrammed in this stuffy ballroom
with these powdered sycophants,all right.
(27:52):
So why did I make these changes?
First of all, in the originalthe best friend was the sexiest
guy in the room.
The best friend was the one whodelivered the fucking Viper's
line.
He was the tall one line.
(28:12):
He was the tall one, um, and hejust he got to deliver like he
hissed, like he just got to doall the sexy stuff, um, and.
So in my revision it's the maincharacter who is the sexy one.
He gets to deliver the viper'sline, um, he's just as tall as
his best friend.
Um, um, and and, and.
So now it's there's more focuson him and him being desirable
(28:33):
to the reader, basically, yeah.
And then I added powderedsycophants as a replacement for
vipers.
But you know, insert insulthere.
Two, remove any potentialsources of confusion.
Dialogue opener was a source ofconfusion for me that raised
bad questions for me, so Iremoved that as a source of
(28:56):
confusion.
Three sharpen the voice, as Imentioned, with that great Sally
Thorne opener, a sharp,incisive, first-person voice is
really going to carry your bookand so you want to make sure
that you really punch them withthat voice, like you get readers
(29:17):
in the solar plexus and thenyou just don't let go Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
I have a question though, so and I'm curious.
Actually, just this is like Idon't know the like, I don't
have an opinion or an answer tothis, but when you say what a
nest of you know fucking vipers,why not an ellipsis?
Why a period?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I personally.
I mean okay.
So I should say that, like, allmy choices are choices that I
would personally make, and thereason I would personally make
that choice is I really likepunchy first sentences.
Like short, declarative firstsentences really have a lot of
power to me.
That's how, pretty much how, Iopen all my books, and so that's
my choice there.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
You would add an ellipsis.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah, I would.
I mean, as you probably haveseen in my books, right, I
always like to give that senseof lingering thoughts right the
lingering thought and so becauseI really like the way you
changed it and I like, for a lotof reasons, that first sentence
and having the swear word inthe first sentence is extremely
(30:29):
jarring.
I remember watching aninterview with I can't oh my God
, I think it was Tony Robbinsactually and and so I never
really watched anything of TonyRobbins actually and and so I
never really watched anything ofTony Robbins or anything, and
he and I.
But I had this vision of thisguy right, like this guy, like
what he was and what he did andstuff.
(30:50):
And he, he gets on the in thisinterview and he's swearing
every three words.
Right, and I'm going, that'snot what I had in my head.
This guy would be like right,you know, he's supposed to make
people's lives better, but he'ssaying lots of potty words.
Why is he saying the pottywords?
And I'm just very confused bythis.
And then in the interview heactually said, like addressed,
(31:14):
why he swears and he goes.
Swearing is a great way to getsomeone's attention because it's
often extremely unexpected.
And not only is it unexpected,it's such an emotionally charged
word that if then, when youthrow in that emotionally
charged word, you're literallytelling people to care.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, and then I, and so I, because it really was
that like dissonance betweenwhat I was expecting him to
sound like and then what heactually sounded like is very
different.
Anyway, so I love the firstline for that reason, because
you're forcing people to tothink about or to to decide to
care.
That's great.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I think we have.
We have one more genre afterthis, or is this the last genre?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
One more.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Okay, cool, let's do that.
And then I want to have acouple minutes for some
questions.
Okay, more general fictionediting and, especially as a
newbie, nonfiction person.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
All right, we'll go more quickly through this last
one.
Oh, I think I have a typo, isthat right?
Andy WEIR?
Yes, yes, ok, no typo, we'regood, ok.
The Martian I know this is afavorite of Rami's.
Ok, so it begins.
(32:34):
I'm pretty much fucked that'smy considered opinion Fucked Six
days into what should be thegreatest month of my life and
it's turned into a nightmare.
So I have a lot of thoughtsabout why this is working well
For one we have, you know we'reutilizing that simple
(32:55):
declarative opening line andwe're combining it with the
potty mouth, as Rami called it.
And it's not just a simple line,it's its own paragraph.
In fact, all four first linesare their own paragraph, which
really draws attention to itselfnot just through that fact, but
all the white space we'recreating here, and it creates
(33:16):
this momentum, this interestingrhythm that we're getting.
This interesting rhythm thatwe're getting.
It's a monologue, essentiallysimilar to what we saw in
romance.
We have a very sharp voice, andI think that's so important for
this novel, right?
Because this is an astronautwho gets stranded on Mars and
(33:40):
he's all by himself, and so alot of the novel is carried by
his monologue, him talking.
He's not even sure if it's toanyone, it's just to himself,
maybe, and so he has to have agreat voice.
But also, we are made a veryimportant choice here to make
him funny.
Someone who monologues andisn't funny is in a tragedy, and
(34:05):
this is not a tragedy.
This is well, it's a comedy,but it has a lot of great
tension and high stakes.
Any thoughts here before I moveon to the student submission?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
on to the student submission.
Uh, no, not really I.
I I love this book and, if youever want to like, if anyone's
not read this book, it isamazing, so that's my only time
for a reason.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, he does a really great job too.
Um, with the opener especially,I would say um.
So this student submissionsubmission is also in sci-fi,
but this one is alien invasion.
It's from a student who'swriting under the pen name, mj
finn.
His original submission uh goes, the planetary defense grids.
(34:53):
Alarms blared through the city'scalm networks, filling the
middle of the night with a senseof urgency overlaid with fear.
A swarm of cryomech assaultvehicles, swarm kites, had been
detected streaking away from theenemy high stone.
The initial trajectory placedthem landing on the planet's
dark side within three hours.
Okay, so this student clearlyreally knows his genre.
(35:14):
He's quickly getting in all ofthis sci-fi language.
The aliens are invadingimmediately, like in the first
paragraph, and there's awonderful sense of grounding and
tension.
Like it's as high as thetension can get.
The problems are great.
I do, though, have suggestionsfor how this could be stronger.
(35:36):
Here's my revised opener.
In the deep of the night, theplanetary defense grid's alarms
activated for the first time,blaring through the city's calm
networks.
A swarm of cryomech assaultvehicles, swarm kites, had been
detected, streaking away fromthe enemy high stone.
They would land on the planet'sdark side within three hours.
(35:58):
Okay.
So why did I make these choices?
One, I wanted to tighten thewriting, especially that first
line or the first paragraph.
And why?
Because that first line wasdoing too much on the nose work
there, right, like.
So we got the.
(36:19):
What was it?
It was like overlaid with fearand urgency, and that's implied,
right, if we're hearing alarmsat night, then there's urgency
to that and we're probably goingto be fearful.
So that's all implied, like.
We just took that out.
And lastly, I wanted to up theante with this, so I added the
(36:42):
alarms activating for the firsttime.
And in this way, we don't knowhow it's going to work.
This may be the first invasionI don't know if this is true for
his opener.
I just threw this in because Iwanted to make this as high
stakes as possible, even more so, and so that was my student
(37:08):
revision.
And then I'll just move on tomy recap of everything real
quick so that it all comes home.
So good writing is good writingis good writing.
It's always true that greatwriting is going to be
compelling.
Remember those opener fourelements that are powerful and
(37:30):
help readers sink into yournovel.
They are POV, intense grounding, questions and tension.
Secondly, a different dimensionhere is knowing your genre and
meeting reader expectations inyour genre.
So, each genre that I covered,there were different reader
expectations that I pointed outwith those.
(37:51):
So, thrillers, it wasphysicality and violence.
Romance, it was a strong voiceand the main character being the
sexiest one in the room.
And then, um, sci-fi, um, itwas having basically sci-fi
language very quickly, um,immersion in that sort of
(38:13):
language in that world, um, andthat's it yeah, that's
everything what what's hilariousis.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Mj Finn is my student and the other two students are
probably with other I mean notprobably most certainly with
other coaches as well.
And so, when you were kind oftalking about MJ Finn's stuff, I
went, oh yeah, yeah, I actuallyknow this whole.
I know what the whole story isabout.
I know everything.
(38:41):
I helped, I helped to plot itout at one, because, uh, you
know, when I have a many likenew students will always work on
a plot line with me, and thenhe's not a new student, though,
he actually someone who's kindof been with us for a while.
Um, but I know that he hadcalled me about this particular
(39:02):
book.
It was like can we talk thisthrough as, like you know?
So, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
This is great.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Siobhan, hey, I want to, if you want to unshare your
screen and then we can do ourfinal kind of thoughts here.
And so, guys, if you, if youmissed it, um, you can.
You can see a bunch of visualsthat will probably make this
make a lot more sense.
Uh, on the youtube channel, onthe video version of the show,
um, we're pretty much at timehere, but maybe we got.
I'll ask one question and then,rami, if you want to ask one
(39:31):
question, then we'll wrap.
I guess for me, siobhan, I'mcurious, first time fiction
authors biggest mistakes thatthey make in the editing process
, or just biggest things.
That is kind of like you don'tknow what you don't know that
you would impart to people whoare listening or watching.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
I would say that the thing I see most often is people
overwriting um, that they 90%of people tend to write too much
Um, and then they can pull itback and make their writing a
lot more powerful.
Basically, with all three ofthose examples I showed, I
pulled back and then the writingpopped.
(40:09):
So that is, I would say, themost common thing.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Nice, and then I think if I were to ask a
question along those lines.
It's like, so when theoverriding is kind of dealt with
, what is the kind of mistakethat you find, like outside of
the overriding that just tendsto reverberate throughout the
(40:35):
story?
Like, where do young writerskind of, where does the story
fall apart for them?
Like, where are the points ofdanger for a young writer?
If that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
I would say the biggest point of danger, the
thing that will make or breakyour story developmentally and
by that I mean your big picturestuff is having a character who
is passive or doesn't wantanything, like in the Clarice
Starling Silence of the Lambsopener.
She's on the move, like in thefirst paragraph, she's in a rush
(41:11):
, even though she has grass allover her, and already she's
dynamic, already she'sintriguing.
And a good rule of thumb is togive your character a goal in
every scene, whether it's big orsmall.
Have them moving towardssomething, and this is always
going to make your writing morecompelling and stronger.
And it's when your charactersdon't want anything, when
(41:33):
they're just passive.
Then the writing immediatelybecomes less interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Thanks, I love it.
I know you guys could probablytalk for hours and hours on
fiction editing and I know youtalk about it a lot in the
courses and stuff, Rami, and soI guess my last question for you
, Siobhan, would be where canpeople go to find out more about
(42:03):
you with you.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
You're editing all that good stuff, yeah, so um I
can be reached at my website,motif M O T I F editscom.
Um, or you can email medirectly, siobhan, at motif
editscom.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Love it.
Uh well, guys, if you'reinterested in checking out more
about what we do atself-publishingcom, you can go
to selfpublishingcom, forwardslash fiction.
You can book a call with theteam there.
They'd be happy to chat withyou and walk you through.
You know your goals for yourbook challenges, how we might be
able to help all that goodstuff.
We also have a ton of fictiontraining, webinars, blog content
(42:36):
all that stuff from rami onselfpublishingcom and on our
other sites and publishingschool.
So if you're looking for goodfiction training, feel free to
check that out or book a callwith the team at
selfpublishingcom forward slashfiction and come back next week.
We'll be diving into morefiction stuff as part of the
fiction takeover.
Thanks y'all.
Thank you so much.
Hey, chandler Bolt here, Welcome back to another
special episode of theSelf-Publishing School podcast.
We're in the middle of thefiction takeover.
Rami and the fictioneers havetaken over the podcast for the
month of November, so forNaNoWriMo, and this week we're
talking about editing.
So we've got another specialguest.
If you're watching this on theYouTube channel, you can see all
(00:28):
three of us.
If not, well, you'll hear us.
So we've got Siobhan here, we'vegot Rami here and I'm going to
pass it to Rami in just a second.
But Siobhan, she has a companycalled Motif Edits, works with a
lot of our authors and ourfiction programs that Rami runs,
and this week we're talkingabout fiction editing, like you
(00:50):
said.
So week one was about sevenfigure fiction, learning from
the trenches with Steve Higgs.
Week two we talked aboutfiction covers.
So really, really insightfulepisode.
Hopefully you guys love that,jake Caleb, and this week we
talk about editing.
So we're going to keep workingthrough kind of the core pillars
.
So with that I'll pass it toRami, who many of you know has
(01:14):
created all the fiction programsand the head of fiction here at
Self-Publishing School hashelped hundreds, if not
thousands, of authors publishbooks.
So pass it to you, rami, youcan tee up Siobhan, and let's
roll.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you so much.
This is the part where Iembarrass Siobhan, and so I'm
pre-apologizing for that one.
So, Siobhan, it was or is, Iguess actually you're going to
have to correct my grammar onthis one was or is my seventh
editor, right?
So I went through six othereditors before I finally found
(01:47):
the one, and I'm never leavingSiobhan.
This is a relationship for life, Siobhan, because you will edit
everything I do forever, andsince I have 60 books out,
that's a lot of books that youhave edited of mine.
So I'm sorry, I guess is whatI'm trying to say here.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
So I think that would be is.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So she is my seventh editor, okay, so.
So, siobhan, I know you and Ihad talked about what we wanted
to do on this call and I amgoing to let you name it, what
you actually name it.
But in the school, we havesomething that we refer to as
murder boarding.
Now, if you don't have amilitary background and or have
(02:32):
never heard the term, no, we arenot trying to kill anyone.
What it is is, it'sconstructive feedback.
But we're not going to hold back, we're not holding back any
punches.
We're not holding back anythoughts.
We're not holding back anypunches.
We're not holding back anythoughts.
The goal here is to give you,to the minutiae, every little
bit that you can improve aboutyourself in as constructive a
(02:52):
way as possible, so that you canbe the best version of yourself
.
And when we do murder boardingin the school, well, I asked
Siobhan, who has murder boardedso many of my books, right, if
she would murder board some ofthe students opening pages,
because, let's be honest, thatfirst page sells the book, right
?
And so now Siobhan offersmurder boarding as a service, or
(03:14):
what do you actually call it?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Murder boarding.
Yeah, it's become so ubiquitousnow.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
That's awesome, I love it.
All right.
Well, I know you had a apresentation, so why don't you
take it away?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
okay, um, thanks so much for having me on.
This is really exciting for mebecause you know I've been
working with students with fromthe school, um, for years now
and um, I'm just very excitedabout both spcom as well as um
helping write the best bookspossible.
That's always been basicallythe reason I got into editing.
(03:50):
So let's dive in.
I'm going to share my screen,okay, can you all see this?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yes.
I'm going to play Okay Is.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Is that you're seeing that?
that looks perfect, yep um, yeah, so, um, basically, what I'm
going to be talking about todayis these openers to great novels
.
We're going to be looking atthem in three genres thriller,
romance and sci-fi, um, and thenwe're going to be looking at
student submissions in each ofthose genres and, um, the
(04:26):
original submission and then howI think it might be stronger
and why.
So, before I dive into thethree genres, I think it's
really crucial here to cover thefour elements of what I call a
killer opener, keeping with themurder board theme, and the
first of them is point of viewand tense.
(04:48):
So readers many of them who arenot trained as writers or to
know how to write or read like awriter, are not thinking about
this consciously, but they dohave subconscious expectations
for getting answers to thesethings right away when they open
a book.
Expectations for gettinganswers to these things right
away when they open a book, so,very quickly, they want to know
(05:12):
whose head we're in, what POVand what tense we're in.
So this typically is firstperson or third person for POV,
and then typically present tenseor past tense.
There's obviously more optionsthan that, but these are the
most common.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I would just like to interject on one point.
I don't care who you are, neverwrite in second person, it just
doesn't work, that's it.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
There you go.
Okay, that's right, rami hastold you never write in second
person.
It obviously doesn't work wellfor selling books usually.
That's right.
And the second thing they'relooking for is grounding when
are we?
Because when we open a book, wecould be anywhere.
We could be on Earth, we couldbe in outer space, we could be
inside a whale's belly.
We just don't know until thewriter gives us the answer.
(05:55):
And so we're kind of floatingin this formless void.
Um, the third thing and this isthe thing that's in basically
every single good opener israising questions in the
reader's mind.
You want to raise intrigue sothat they can only get those
(06:16):
questions answered, that thatsource of intrigue answered by
reading on.
Um, and so there's two types ofquestions you can raise good
ones and bad ones.
So a good question is if inyour first line someone's in a
hurry, the point of intrigue iswhere are they going and why are
they in a hurry?
This is a question they can getanswered by reading on and it
(06:38):
keeps them inside your story.
Bad questions create confusion.
So between the first and thesecond line we might change POV
entirely or change tense, andthis might confuse readers.
They might say well, whose headare we in, what tense are we in
?
And in this way they feeloutside the story.
(06:59):
They're not in the dream ofyour world.
So you never want to confusereaders with questions like that
.
You want to keep them insideyour story.
This is crucial.
And then, lastly, this ties inwith questions.
Often a way of creatingquestions is creating tension,
bringing up problems.
So not all of these have to bein every great opener, or
(07:24):
especially the first line, likeyou'll see a lot of great first
lines that only have one or twoof these.
Some have all four, but the onethat you pretty much always are
going to encounter is raisingquestions in the reader's mind.
So, with these four elements inmind, let's go through some
great openers.
We'll start with thrillers.
(07:48):
So I picked the Silence of theLambs by Thomas Harris.
I picked great openers to booksthat were made into movies or
TV shows.
This is one of the greatestmovies in my opinion.
So the opening paragraph goesBehavioral science.
(08:08):
The FBI section that deals withserial murder is on the bottom
floor of the academy building atQuantico, half buried in the
earth.
Clarice Starling reached it,flushed, after a fast walk from
Hogan's Alley.
On the firing range.
She had grass in her hair andgrass stains on her FBI Academy
windbreaker from diving to theground under fire in an arrest
(08:30):
problem on the range.
So, thinking about those fourelements in that first line, we
get a great sense of groundingRight away.
We imagine this building, thebottom floor of the academy
building at quantico, halfburied in the earth.
It's a wonderful visual.
(08:50):
Um, and so we, right away, wefeel this kind of sense of
realism of being there on theground.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Um, in virginia, quantico, virginia, right um and
also sorry, just it also tiesthe serial killer, the
terminology half buried.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And it's funny because I know that Chandler
talks a lot about in inentrepreneurial spaces, right,
and the nonfiction space isabout embedding.
Right, like you're, you'reembedding these concepts, you're
embedding, you know what'scoming, you're embedding this in
.
In fiction, embedding is oftendone by language choice, where
(09:30):
the language choice directlyties to the bigger issue or the
theme, or you know, in this caseit's the serial killer.
We are dealing with multipleserial killers, half buried,
like you know.
What do serial killers do?
They bury their, their you knownot evidence.
Uh, what do you call theirvictims?
(09:50):
Right, you know.
So, yeah, it works really wellthis is.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I'm glad you brought that up, because this is
something I wanted to touch onwith regard to thrillers, um and
, and that is that thrillerreaders are expecting this sort
of language.
This gets them excited right Inthe first line.
We have serial murder, we haveFBI, we have half buried.
(10:15):
It's not a coincidence or anaccident that Harris included
the term half buried in theearth.
We can imagine not just abuilding, but a body.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Because we're talking about serial murder yeah, I
mean sorry.
Just that one word is so greatbecause it also implies
simultaneously someone who's inreal trouble, right, like
someone who's about to diebecause you buried the dead
right, while simultaneouslygiving hope and that's also a
thriller.
Expectation is that the hero isgoing to save someone.
(10:49):
We know people are going to die, but someone's going to get
saved.
So that's the half buried.
There's the hope and thedespair in just that one word.
Right, it's great yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Great point, yeah, and so you can see that language
in other parts of this firstparagraph too.
You know we see under fire,arrest problem, firing range
flushed.
You know she's in a rush aswell, and so we get lots of
tension in this first paragraphand questions why is she in such
(11:20):
a rush, why does she have grassall over her, and what's going
to happen at the behavioralscience building dealing with
serial murder?
And then the last thing I'dlove to point out here is you
know, one of the reasons ClariceStarling is often called one of
the greatest heroines isbecause she's simultaneously
(11:43):
vulnerable and a badass.
And you see that even in thisfirst paragraph, clarice, you
know, is a very specific woman'sname, right, and we see in the
movie that she's very small,right, we don't get that in this
first paragraph, but we knowshe's wearing her FBI academy
(12:05):
wind breaker.
She's just a trainee, um, she'sa woman, but she's like, really
a badass.
Already.
She's got grass everywhere, butshe doesn't even mind, she's,
she's got somewhere to be, um,and so you really get a
wonderful little portrait of herin this first paragraph.
I already, already, amcompelled by Clarice.
(12:25):
Okay, so I'm going to move onto a student submission in this
genre.
So this student writes under thepen name, gp Schumacher, and
she writes psychologicalthrillers, which Silence of the
Lambs is sometimes called, andthis was a book that she's
(12:50):
currently writing, and this isthe very opening two paragraphs.
It goes the military are youcrazy?
Rosie put down her coffee cupand stared at her friend who sat
across from her at their highschool cafeteria table.
Why the heck would you want togo into the military, hadley?
Hadley took a sip of her owncoffee, then gave her friend a
(13:10):
serious look, because noteveryone is as genius as you are
.
The average person isn'tguaranteed a full ride,
scholarship to college, andcertainly not to an Ivy League
school.
So she's actually doing somethings well here.
Um, right away, we have a senseof grounding, we know where
we're at um, and we also have,um, these two characters kind of
(13:32):
at odds a bit.
Um, they're having aconversation where you know one
is calling the other crazy.
Why the heck would you want todo this?
Um.
So there's some questionsraised, some some tension, that
grounding not totally clear.
On POV, we do have a clearsense of tense, but I do have
(13:52):
some suggestions for how thismight be stronger.
So I'm going to show you nowthe revisions I made.
So, with my revisions, this nowreads Rosie Mullins.
I gave her a fake last name.
I don't know if this is herlast name, but Rosie Mullins
lowered her soda and stared ather friend seated across from
(14:14):
her at their high schoolcafeteria the military.
Are you crazy?
Why would you want to enlistHadley?
Hadley sipped at her own soda.
She set the empty can down witha hollow clank.
Not everyone is a genius likeyou, rosie.
Most of us don't get a fullride to college, and certainly
not to Brown.
So why did I make the changes Imade here?
(14:35):
First, I really wanted to focusmore in on creating a sense of
tension from the beginning.
You know, based on the silenceof the lambs we get so much
tension in that opener and Iwanted to amplify the
disagreement between these twoand also this question of why
Rosie hates the military.
(14:57):
I wanted to draw all that out.
So in order to do that, Iutilized her internal thinking
and I also had Hadley set thecan down with a hollow clank.
I made that action do more workin terms of creating tension
and then I sort of modifiedHadley's dialogue to also get
(15:21):
the contention between them.
Second, I tightened the writing.
The original had some extrawords and I think it reduced
some of the power of the writing.
All these great openers thatyou're going to see, they are
tight, they do not have oneextra word, and so this is such
(15:42):
a crucial piece of advice alwayslook to where you can tighten
your writing.
It will greatly amplify itspower.
Third, I didn't do this herebecause I didn't see really
opportunities, but I suggestedto this writer to incorporate
suggestions of physicality orviolence In the Silence of the
(16:03):
Lambs opener we talked about.
Right, we have so many mentionsof serial murder.
Have buried um firing rangearrest problem, like we have all
of this suggestion of violence.
Right, and that's what thrillerreaders are reading for.
Is that the possibility ofviolence?
When is it going to come right?
(16:24):
And so you're kind of alwaysforeshadowing that in thrillers.
Um rami, do you have a thought?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I see you, yeah yeah, I have so, so much.
Yeah, I mean one of themistakes and this is something
that I'm always talking to withnew writers all the time right,
I, just I, I, probably I I mustsay this like three times a day
when I'm coaching, which is justyou know, it is imperative that
you're setting up theexpectations, and the thing is
(16:51):
is like I don't care what youwant to do with this book, if
you're not meeting the genreexpectations, it's not going to
work, and so, for example, inThriller, the genre expectations
is physical violence.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And there is always some form of well, I don't even
want to say, because you canargue that, like legal thrillers
have less physical violence.
There'll still be some, but youknow, there's a lot of
courtroom tension and courtroombattles, but there is two people
who are at battle with eachother and the stakes are life
(17:26):
and death.
They're not, they're not,they're not like.
The stakes are who gets to ownthe cat?
Right in the divorce, thestakes are life and death.
Right, someone is going toeither actually die or
metaphorically die in in in athriller.
That's one thing.
But then the other thing thatyou did, which I thought and I
(17:48):
and if I'm, if I'm like, likestealing your mojo here I
apologize, siobhan the one thingthat you did, or there's a lot
of improvements here.
But there's one thing inparticular that I wanted to
point out.
That is like I reallyunderstated genius.
Right, you changed.
You changed it from coffee, thecoffee cup which why do I need
(18:10):
a coffee cup to soda, and, and Ithink the reason why this is so
important is because they're inhigh school, and the, the, the,
the, the vision that a highschool student is, especially in
a high school cafeteria, aredrinking a coffee is jarring,
especially to an older reader,right, like you know, as an
(18:33):
older reader, the idea that acoffee would be in high school
was like a non-existent thing.
I don't know what these youngyou know millennials do, quite
honestly, like, that's the, youknow.
But in my day there was nocoffee in the school, all right,
unless you're in the teacher'slounge.
And, and so I think it is.
(18:55):
You know, that idea of, like,bad questions create confusion.
The confusion can be created byanything right and simply
saying a coffee cup in a highschool cafeteria when, well, it
seems that they're students andnot teachers, right?
Um, that creates just enoughconfusion for someone to be like
, oh my, sorry, I'm gonna shutup in one minute, but I'm gonna.
(19:19):
I will raise a, and so shavonnaand I have actually co-authored
a series together and one ofthe two series together.
That's right and one of the doyou remember the hercules
criticism?
For right.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
So uh, remind me okay .
Speaker 2 (19:34):
So in the opening scene of the book that had all
the right elements, hercules,cupid and two other full-grown
adults uh, get into a mustangand drive off.
They're being chased by a ghostdinosaur, if you remember this,
and mortality bound, right,yeah, right.
So that was definitely a JimButcher shout out on our part,
(19:59):
and I got feedback that was likewhat the hell's wrong with
these people?
They clearly don't know what aMustang is.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
I remember now yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Hercules is, is you know?
You describe him as the size ofarnold schwarzenegger.
Arnold schwarzenegger could notfit in the back of a mustang
right and they also.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
I gave it four doors, I think yeah, yeah, or
something like that yeah, it waslike how many doors was in
question?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
yeah, so these points of confusion.
Like you, we genuinely neverbothered to look up what a
Mustang looked like.
We both at the time didn't owncars.
I do now, but I didn't then,and yeah so, anyway, these
points matter is, I guess, whatmy point is.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
So that's exactly it.
Yeah, those are bad questions.
The coffee and the um themustang are both questions that
hold those readers.
I pulled me out of the storywith the coffee and um the
mustang, out of this, out of thestory for that other reader
yeah um, so that's a that's areally great point.
Um, the last thing that I wouldnote here is you know, with the
(21:07):
choice I made to give rosie alast name when we introduce her?
Uh, is you know with the choiceI made to give Rosie a last
name when we introduce her is ameeting thriller expectations?
Right, the first time we meetClarice, we see her as Clarice
Starling and it lends a certainthriller gravitas.
You know, like that, thischaracter will be fighting for
their life.
There's just, yeah, it's just athriller thing for their life.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
There's just, yeah, it's just a thriller thing.
Yeah, yeah, actually, on thatpoint, sorry to interrupt again,
but, um, do you?
We won't out him, just in casehe doesn't want to be out.
But you know jd kirk, right?
So he's an indie author whoswitched genres from sci-fi to
thriller and he's seven figuresand, uh, I don't know if you
know who he is, but you've methim, we both met him.
Anyway, when he was researchingthe thrillers, he literally
(21:53):
that point of the last name,first name, like it, was
something he brought up where henot only researched that, that
expectation of a full name, butalso the expectation of the kind
of full name, right, you know,and it, you know, kind of
getting that you know, middleAmerica, right, like down to
earth, right, generic, you knowthat kind of thing.
(22:13):
Like you know, these details domatter.
So Mullins is a perfect lastname.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
That's actually something I thought of without
really realizing.
I thought of it is like what'sa generic middle America name
that I could give her.
That's so true, it's very cool.
Yeah, okay, so if, with yourapproval, I'll move on, are?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
you happy Okay?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
So the next one is romance.
So I decided to pick a romancethat is really popular.
This one has 43,000 reviews onAmazon.
That also got made into a movie.
I picked one that iscontemporary romance because the
student submission is alsocontemporary.
So this one's called the HatingGame by Sally Thorne, and the
opening paragraph goes I have atheory Hating someone feels
(23:02):
disturbingly similar to being inlove with them.
I've had a lot of time tocompare love and hate and these
are my observations and she goesinto the observations and the
next paragraph is long so Ididn't include it.
But this one, I think, reallyexemplifies a couple things.
Right, we have the four elementsof a great opener that we've
(23:26):
examined.
Clearly, we have a very strongvoice here, a POV, that first
person, and it's really clearnarration.
But we also have a verydistinct romance voice.
Romance first person voicestend to be very sharp.
(23:47):
They tend to be witty, incisive.
They just carry you alongbecause there's a lot of kind of
monologuing that happens asthey're describing their life,
and so that is.
I think one of the most crucialelements in contemporary
romance is getting that voicedown really well, because
(24:10):
typically that's going to becarrying you along through the
novel.
Of course, there's also theother parts of the romance
formula, the plot.
That's crucial as well.
The happily ever after.
But when it comes to this,opener voice is so, so potent.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
It's also a voice that clearly demonstrates that
love is a choice, right likeright.
So it's because, because, likecontemporary romance, in which
the person can't like, is forcedto be in love, right like right
, it's not like an active actionto, you know, meeting the
(24:52):
person and like the dating andall overcoming the obstacles and
all that.
But you know, you're kind of inlike that 1800s, like you know,
damsel in distress kind of erais, is not you know?
So this person clearly feelslike someone who's in control,
like she's not going to justneedlessly get swept away until
she is right, until it's justoverwhelmingly this is what's
(25:14):
going to happen, right.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
So that's a great um point there, because it draws on
one of the biggest sources oftension in romance, which is
they.
They basically have to have ahuge reason why they would never
be with this person, and hatingthem is about as big a reason
as it gets.
So it's like readers will bewondering how does one overcome
(25:36):
this hate to be with someone?
That's why enemies to lovers isso, so popular.
So here's a student submission.
This is also contemporaryromance.
Um, she calls it spicy.
Um, so it's okay if I curse.
I hope it's not I won't, that'sfine okay, um, okay.
(26:01):
So, uh, this is victoria benoit,I think that's how you
pronounce her pen name.
Um, chapter one starts with themale, pov Friedrich.
Just a few passes around theroom and then we'll go.
Okay, I turn to look up at theman next to me.
I would generally be consideredtall, if not standing next to
my best friend who towers overeveryone in the room.
He leans to the side slightlyto hiss at me this is your last
(26:24):
night of freedom.
We should be living it up, notcrammed in some stuffy ballroom
with these fucking vipers.
Okay, so clearly this personhas a strong sense of the
edginess of contemporary romance.
She calls it spicy, right, andthere is spice already in these
first two paragraphs,particularly that last line
(26:44):
there paragraphs, particularlythat last line there.
One thing that I had troublewith is, personally, I couldn't
tell who was speaking right away.
I wasn't sure whose dialoguethat was, if it was the main
character or the best friend,and if I have trouble with
something, I usually assume thatother readers some may have
(27:06):
trouble with it too, because Idon't represent all readers, but
I certainly represent some, Ithink, and so that's what makes
dialogue very challenging as anopener.
So what I did.
This is just, personally, how Iwould strengthen it.
Many books open with dialoguevery successfully.
(27:30):
This is my revision.
What a nest of fucking vipers.
I lean toward my best friend towhisper just a few passes
around the room and then we'llgo.
Okay, between the two of us, wetower over everyone here.
He hisses at me this is yourlast night of freedom.
We should be living it up, notcrammed in this stuffy ballroom
with these powdered sycophants,all right.
(27:52):
So why did I make these changes?
First of all, in the originalthe best friend was the sexiest
guy in the room.
The best friend was the one whodelivered the fucking Viper's
line.
He was the tall one line.
(28:12):
He was the tall one, um, and hejust he got to deliver like he
hissed, like he just got to doall the sexy stuff, um, and.
So in my revision it's the maincharacter who is the sexy one.
He gets to deliver the viper'sline, um, he's just as tall as
his best friend.
Um, um, and and, and.
So now it's there's more focuson him and him being desirable
(28:33):
to the reader, basically, yeah.
And then I added powderedsycophants as a replacement for
vipers.
But you know, insert insulthere.
Two, remove any potentialsources of confusion.
Dialogue opener was a source ofconfusion for me that raised
bad questions for me, so Iremoved that as a source of
(28:56):
confusion.
Three sharpen the voice, as Imentioned, with that great Sally
Thorne opener, a sharp,incisive, first-person voice is
really going to carry your bookand so you want to make sure
that you really punch them withthat voice, like you get readers
(29:17):
in the solar plexus and thenyou just don't let go Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
I have a question though, so and I'm curious.
Actually, just this is like Idon't know the like, I don't
have an opinion or an answer tothis, but when you say what a
nest of you know fucking vipers,why not an ellipsis?
Why a period?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I personally.
I mean okay.
So I should say that, like, allmy choices are choices that I
would personally make, and thereason I would personally make
that choice is I really likepunchy first sentences.
Like short, declarative firstsentences really have a lot of
power to me.
That's how, pretty much how, Iopen all my books, and so that's
my choice there.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
You would add an ellipsis.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah, I would.
I mean, as you probably haveseen in my books, right, I
always like to give that senseof lingering thoughts right the
lingering thought and so becauseI really like the way you
changed it and I like, for a lotof reasons, that first sentence
and having the swear word inthe first sentence is extremely
(30:29):
jarring.
I remember watching aninterview with I can't oh my God
, I think it was Tony Robbinsactually and and so I never
really watched anything of TonyRobbins actually and and so I
never really watched anything ofTony Robbins or anything, and
he and I.
But I had this vision of thisguy right, like this guy, like
what he was and what he did andstuff.
(30:50):
And he, he gets on the in thisinterview and he's swearing
every three words.
Right, and I'm going, that'snot what I had in my head.
This guy would be like right,you know, he's supposed to make
people's lives better, but he'ssaying lots of potty words.
Why is he saying the pottywords?
And I'm just very confused bythis.
And then in the interview heactually said, like addressed,
(31:14):
why he swears and he goes.
Swearing is a great way to getsomeone's attention because it's
often extremely unexpected.
And not only is it unexpected,it's such an emotionally charged
word that if then, when youthrow in that emotionally
charged word, you're literallytelling people to care.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, and then I, and so I, because it really was
that like dissonance betweenwhat I was expecting him to
sound like and then what heactually sounded like is very
different.
Anyway, so I love the firstline for that reason, because
you're forcing people to tothink about or to to decide to
care.
That's great.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I think we have.
We have one more genre afterthis, or is this the last genre?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
One more.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Okay, cool, let's do that.
And then I want to have acouple minutes for some
questions.
Okay, more general fictionediting and, especially as a
newbie, nonfiction person.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
All right, we'll go more quickly through this last
one.
Oh, I think I have a typo, isthat right?
Andy WEIR?
Yes, yes, ok, no typo, we'regood, ok.
The Martian I know this is afavorite of Rami's.
Ok, so it begins.
(32:34):
I'm pretty much fucked that'smy considered opinion Fucked Six
days into what should be thegreatest month of my life and
it's turned into a nightmare.
So I have a lot of thoughtsabout why this is working well
For one we have, you know we'reutilizing that simple
(32:55):
declarative opening line andwe're combining it with the
potty mouth, as Rami called it.
And it's not just a simple line,it's its own paragraph.
In fact, all four first linesare their own paragraph, which
really draws attention to itselfnot just through that fact, but
all the white space we'recreating here, and it creates
(33:16):
this momentum, this interestingrhythm that we're getting.
This interesting rhythm thatwe're getting.
It's a monologue, essentiallysimilar to what we saw in
romance.
We have a very sharp voice, andI think that's so important for
this novel, right?
Because this is an astronautwho gets stranded on Mars and
(33:40):
he's all by himself, and so alot of the novel is carried by
his monologue, him talking.
He's not even sure if it's toanyone, it's just to himself,
maybe, and so he has to have agreat voice.
But also, we are made a veryimportant choice here to make
him funny.
Someone who monologues andisn't funny is in a tragedy, and
(34:05):
this is not a tragedy.
This is well, it's a comedy,but it has a lot of great
tension and high stakes.
Any thoughts here before I moveon to the student submission?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
on to the student submission.
Uh, no, not really I.
I I love this book and, if youever want to like, if anyone's
not read this book, it isamazing, so that's my only time
for a reason.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, he does a really great job too.
Um, with the opener especially,I would say um.
So this student submissionsubmission is also in sci-fi,
but this one is alien invasion.
It's from a student who'swriting under the pen name, mj
finn.
His original submission uh goes, the planetary defense grids.
(34:53):
Alarms blared through the city'scalm networks, filling the
middle of the night with a senseof urgency overlaid with fear.
A swarm of cryomech assaultvehicles, swarm kites, had been
detected streaking away from theenemy high stone.
The initial trajectory placedthem landing on the planet's
dark side within three hours.
Okay, so this student clearlyreally knows his genre.
(35:14):
He's quickly getting in all ofthis sci-fi language.
The aliens are invadingimmediately, like in the first
paragraph, and there's awonderful sense of grounding and
tension.
Like it's as high as thetension can get.
The problems are great.
I do, though, have suggestionsfor how this could be stronger.
(35:36):
Here's my revised opener.
In the deep of the night, theplanetary defense grid's alarms
activated for the first time,blaring through the city's calm
networks.
A swarm of cryomech assaultvehicles, swarm kites, had been
detected, streaking away fromthe enemy high stone.
They would land on the planet'sdark side within three hours.
(35:58):
Okay.
So why did I make these choices?
One, I wanted to tighten thewriting, especially that first
line or the first paragraph.
And why?
Because that first line wasdoing too much on the nose work
there, right, like.
So we got the.
(36:19):
What was it?
It was like overlaid with fearand urgency, and that's implied,
right, if we're hearing alarmsat night, then there's urgency
to that and we're probably goingto be fearful.
So that's all implied, like.
We just took that out.
And lastly, I wanted to up theante with this, so I added the
(36:42):
alarms activating for the firsttime.
And in this way, we don't knowhow it's going to work.
This may be the first invasionI don't know if this is true for
his opener.
I just threw this in because Iwanted to make this as high
stakes as possible, even more so, and so that was my student
(37:08):
revision.
And then I'll just move on tomy recap of everything real
quick so that it all comes home.
So good writing is good writingis good writing.
It's always true that greatwriting is going to be
compelling.
Remember those opener fourelements that are powerful and
(37:30):
help readers sink into yournovel.
They are POV, intense grounding, questions and tension.
Secondly, a different dimensionhere is knowing your genre and
meeting reader expectations inyour genre.
So, each genre that I covered,there were different reader
expectations that I pointed outwith those.
(37:51):
So, thrillers, it wasphysicality and violence.
Romance, it was a strong voiceand the main character being the
sexiest one in the room.
And then, um, sci-fi, um, itwas having basically sci-fi
language very quickly, um,immersion in that sort of
(38:13):
language in that world, um, andthat's it yeah, that's
everything what what's hilariousis.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Mj Finn is my student and the other two students are
probably with other I mean notprobably most certainly with
other coaches as well.
And so, when you were kind oftalking about MJ Finn's stuff, I
went, oh yeah, yeah, I actuallyknow this whole.
I know what the whole story isabout.
I know everything.
(38:41):
I helped, I helped to plot itout at one, because, uh, you
know, when I have a many likenew students will always work on
a plot line with me, and thenhe's not a new student, though,
he actually someone who's kindof been with us for a while.
Um, but I know that he hadcalled me about this particular
(39:02):
book.
It was like can we talk thisthrough as, like you know?
So, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
This is great.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Siobhan, hey, I want to, if you want to unshare your
screen and then we can do ourfinal kind of thoughts here.
And so, guys, if you, if youmissed it, um, you can.
You can see a bunch of visualsthat will probably make this
make a lot more sense.
Uh, on the youtube channel, onthe video version of the show,
um, we're pretty much at timehere, but maybe we got.
I'll ask one question and then,rami, if you want to ask one
(39:31):
question, then we'll wrap.
I guess for me, siobhan, I'mcurious, first time fiction
authors biggest mistakes thatthey make in the editing process
, or just biggest things.
That is kind of like you don'tknow what you don't know that
you would impart to people whoare listening or watching.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
I would say that the thing I see most often is people
overwriting um, that they 90%of people tend to write too much
Um, and then they can pull itback and make their writing a
lot more powerful.
Basically, with all three ofthose examples I showed, I
pulled back and then the writingpopped.
(40:09):
So that is, I would say, themost common thing.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Nice, and then I think if I were to ask a
question along those lines.
It's like, so when theoverriding is kind of dealt with
, what is the kind of mistakethat you find, like outside of
the overriding that just tendsto reverberate throughout the
(40:35):
story?
Like, where do young writerskind of, where does the story
fall apart for them?
Like, where are the points ofdanger for a young writer?
If that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
I would say the biggest point of danger, the
thing that will make or breakyour story developmentally and
by that I mean your big picturestuff is having a character who
is passive or doesn't wantanything, like in the Clarice
Starling Silence of the Lambsopener.
She's on the move, like in thefirst paragraph, she's in a rush
(41:11):
, even though she has grass allover her, and already she's
dynamic, already she'sintriguing.
And a good rule of thumb is togive your character a goal in
every scene, whether it's big orsmall.
Have them moving towardssomething, and this is always
going to make your writing morecompelling and stronger.
And it's when your charactersdon't want anything, when
(41:33):
they're just passive.
Then the writing immediatelybecomes less interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Thanks, I love it.
I know you guys could probablytalk for hours and hours on
fiction editing and I know youtalk about it a lot in the
courses and stuff, Rami, and soI guess my last question for you
, Siobhan, would be where canpeople go to find out more about
(42:03):
you with you.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
You're editing all that good stuff, yeah, so um I
can be reached at my website,motif M O T I F editscom.
Um, or you can email medirectly, siobhan, at motif
editscom.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Love it.
Uh well, guys, if you'reinterested in checking out more
about what we do atself-publishingcom, you can go
to selfpublishingcom, forwardslash fiction.
You can book a call with theteam there.
They'd be happy to chat withyou and walk you through.
You know your goals for yourbook challenges, how we might be
able to help all that goodstuff.
We also have a ton of fictiontraining, webinars, blog content
(42:36):
all that stuff from rami onselfpublishingcom and on our
other sites and publishingschool.
So if you're looking for goodfiction training, feel free to
check that out or book a callwith the team at
selfpublishingcom forward slashfiction and come back next week.
We'll be diving into morefiction stuff as part of the
fiction takeover.
Thanks y'all.
Thank you so much.
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