Discover the keys to thriving in fiction writing as we wrap up our fiction takeover series on the Self-Publishing School podcast. Hosted by Chandler Bolt and led by Rami Vance, this roundtable discussion features the journeys of successful fiction authors who have mastered the art of storytelling. Julia, Paul, and Casey Morales—also known as JD Ruffa or Joe Chandler—join us to share their unique paths and the lessons they've learned. From embracing the challenges of self-publishing to surpassing traditional career expectations, our guests reveal how embracing hard work, adaptability, and mentorship can lead to success.
Julia opens up about the initial hurdles of self-publishing, guided by her husband's support and insightful coaching. Her story underscores the importance of having the right resources and the courage to pursue one's passion. Meanwhile, Paul takes us through his evolution from a failed sci-fi series to a successful cozy mystery author. At 68, his resilience and willingness to pivot serve as an inspiring reminder that it's never too late to achieve your writing dreams. The collaborative spirit of mentors and peers shines through, illustrating how these relationships support and elevate authors on their journeys.
Casey Morales shares his unexpected transition from a steady career at Morgan Stanley to becoming a bestselling author in the male-male romance genre. Initially hesitant, Casey's daring switch led him to surpass his previous income and find personal freedom. He offers candid insights into adapting to market trends and the importance of pursuing opportunities that may seem unconventional. Throughout the episode, we emphasize the significance of honing your craft and understanding fiction fundamentals, providing practical advice for aspiring authors ready to embark on their own writing adventures.
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Here are some links that might come in handy:
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Must-watch episodes:
- SPS 044: Using A Free + Shipping Book Funnel with Anik Singal
- SPS 115: Using Atomic Habits To Write & Publish A Book with James Clear
- SPS 127: Traditional vs. Self Publishing: Which You Should Choose with Ruth Soukup
- SPS 095: The Five Love Languages: Selling 15 Million Copies with Gary Chapman
- SPS 056: How I Sold 46M Copies of My Self Published Book with Robert Kiyosaki
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey Chandler Bolt here.
Welcome back to theSelf-Publishing School podcast
Special episode.
This week the fiction takeovercontinues.
The fictioneers have totallytaken over the podcast.
If you've been listening,throughout November NaNoWriMo
month we've had some awesomeepisodes.
We talked about seventh-yearfiction learning from someone
(00:27):
who's done it.
We talked about fiction bookcovers.
We talked about fiction editing, and this is the final episode
in this series.
So this is a bit of a roundtable.
We've got authors successfulfiction authors at all different
journeys or parts of theirjourney.
We've got the man head offiction, rami Vance, aka Ari
(00:47):
Vance.
You've probably seen hisepisodes on the show.
If you haven't, those are goodones to go back.
We've got episodes in thebacklog on the fundamentals of
fiction and story.
We've got episodes in thebacklog on what it takes to
become a full-time fictionauthor and all that stuff.
So if you want to check thisout, you're welcome to.
But Rami has built the fictionprogram from the ground up, has
helped hundreds, thousands ofauthors I don't even know how
(01:09):
many books be published in thetrenches, doing thousands of
coaching calls.
I mean sold 80,000 copies ofhis books just last year.
This is the fiction resource Idon't.
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize that.
But the fiction resources thebest on the internet and so you
(01:29):
guys are going to get to see thebehind the scenes of that here
today.
So I've already talked too long.
I'm going to shut up and getout of the way, uh, and maybe
ask some dumb questions here orthere as the ignorant nonfiction
guy on the show.
But we've got multiple peopleon today.
Rami is steering the ship.
Rami, I'll pass it to you.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
No, thank you.
Yeah, I know you always do theintroduction of how many books I
sold last year, but the truthis it's like I am.
There are so many people doingway better than me.
You know, I'm just pleased.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
No deflecting Rami.
No deflecting rami, no deflect,just take the compliment.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
No, no, no but in all seriousness, I just wanted to
make that point of, like, I lovethe fact that I pay my mortgage
off of vampire money.
It just doesn't get better thanthat.
So, uh, yeah, um, okay.
So I'm really excited aboutthis one because, um, you know,
I've been running the fictionprogram now I think it's like
six years now and that like itwas its own thing for about five
(02:30):
or six years now, and over theyears I've seen students come
and go and there's that kind ofcommon denominator of success
that I've seen continuouslyappear.
And you know, if I were to kindof, you know, boil down the
common denominator of success toa couple points, the first
(02:50):
thing is is that they fullyunderstand that writer's right,
right and, as we've talked toPaul, joe and Julia, who are on
various stages of theirauthoring career and, you know,
are headed in the rightdirection and, in Joe's case,
are in state right, he's foundthe place, you know.
(03:10):
And not only are they doingthat, but they're willing to
listen, right, they're willingto play the fool before they can
become the master, and I thinkthat's really important.
Like you're ultimatelycoachable and you know that you,
you don't know everything rightand I don't know everything,
but I can point you in the rightdirection and, you know, try to
(03:32):
give you that that.
That, um, stop you fromspinning your wheels.
The other thing is is thatthey're not afraid of hard work,
and that's the thing that Ithink is probably the biggest
misconception about writingfiction is that, oh, I'm going
to write the one book, I'm goingto post it up onto Amazon.
I was going to sell a millioncopies because my mother told me
I was special and that rarelyworks right, you know, and it
(03:56):
was clearly my mother's a liar,because that's what she told me
and it didn't work.
Like that, mom, what the Anyway?
And so, to that end end, youcan have a fiction career if
you're willing to roll up yoursleeves and work, and these
three people are the epitome ofexactly that right.
Every single one of them haveworked their butts off, and so
(04:16):
we got julia, we got paul and wegot joe, and I'm just so happy
to have, you know, students whoare doing it right and are
progressing.
So now there's kind of aprogression here, and I wanted
to start with Julia, who is, I'dsay, at the beginning, but has
already hit some of those keymetrics where it's like, oh OK,
(04:38):
julia, like it's simple, right,like just keep going, like
that's the answer, just keepgoing.
So, julia, I'm going to askeveryone this question.
By the way, so sorry for tothrow you under the bus, julia,
the rest of them get time toprepare, but love going first.
Yeah yeah, and it's not a lady'sfirst situation this time,
(05:02):
julia, so just so you know.
But my question to you is thiswhat would you, what do you wish
you had known two years ago,like what do you wish you had
known when it popped into yourhead?
I want to write a book that younow know.
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Oh my gosh, great, great question.
You know what?
I'm actually glad that I was asignorant as I was going into
this, because I think if I hadknown the things that come after
just the end right Typing theend to my novel I think I would
have been discouraged, maybeBecause there's a lot more to
(05:45):
publishing a book than justwriting the words on the page.
And I'm beyond grateful that Ifound self-publishing and have
the team that I have and theresources that I have, because I
am 100% convinced that withoutall of you I would not be doing
what I'm doing as well as I'mdoing after two months into this
(06:08):
journey of publishing.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I didn't answer your question, but no, you didn't.
But I love hearing what you'resaying and I can see Chandler
already chastising me for whatI'm going to say next.
I think we pointed you in theright direction and we cut the
fat, but like you have, youreally did.
You know you put in the workright and you put in the effort.
(06:31):
So tell us a little bit aboutyour story.
Just give us that top lineelevator pitch piece of it.
But I really want to kind ofask two questions as you're
telling the story, if you cankind of address these two points
as you're telling the story, ifyou can kind of address these
two points as you're telling thestory the vision of the story
that you had before you joinedand then how that vision evolved
(06:54):
as you got deeper into theprocess and started to see, like
what the market is doing, whatother authors are doing that you
know, kind of immerse yourselfinto the genre requirements,
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Yeah, I mean I started working on this book
years and years ago and neverreally considered publishing it
until my husband sort of saidhey, you know what are you doing
in your evenings?
I mean it was sort of a it wasmy habit that I never told
anybody about, not even thoseclosest to me, because I thought
, well, I mean, who am I?
And then my husband said youknow, actually, this is really
good, tell me more about this,read it to me.
And he was the one who pushedme to publish.
(07:31):
And at first I mean I was soignorant I knew nothing about
anything and thought, oh yeah,trad publishing and all those
things.
But I'm a control freak, I liketo have creative control over
all things at all times andthought, okay, maybe I'll.
I think the self-publishingroute is the way to go.
No way, no idea where to go.
(07:51):
On that Did a bunch of researchcame across selfpublishingcom
called had that initialconversation and then the second
conversation and the thirdconversation.
I may not have been asexcessive as Joe in my calls,
(08:13):
but I talked a few times andthen at that point probably
about 85% of my manuscript wasdone.
So I was pretty far into theprocess, into the writing
process, but then quicklyrealized, once I started having
my coaching calls I had thegroup calls with Rami and Joe
and then my individual coachingcalls with Barbara realized that
there's so much more to it theediting, the marketing.
I mean I did not know the firstthing about even uploading to
(08:36):
KDP, writing a blurb for cryingout loud, didn't know any of
that and I mean it's a steeplearning curve and I'm still
still feel like I really don'tknow my head from my bottom most
of the time.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, it's hilarious because I'll work.
I work with co authors now,like that's a big part of what I
do.
And so here are people who arelike writing 20,000 words a week
, we're talking like two threetimes a week.
We're going 000 words a week,we're talking like two three
times a week.
We're going over the story,we're doing all this stuff.
And then at the end I'll say,hey, why don't you give me a
rough draft of a blurb and I'll,I'll fix it up, but just give
me.
I just want to know what youthink should be in the blurb.
(09:17):
And uh, I mean the pain andsuffering they feel.
You know, they wrote, they justwrote a hundred thousand word
book, but to write that 200 wordblurb Terrible.
Yeah, ok, cool.
Well, I have one more questionfor you, julia, but I'm going to
go jump to Paul.
So I do have bad news for Juliaand Joe, and I do apologize to
(09:39):
both of you now, I really do,but Paul is my favorite student
ever and everyone is just buyingfor second place, Okay, so,
yeah, that's right.
Paul and I had breakfast inNiagara-on-the-Lake not too long
ago.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
We just happened to be in the same that's all it
takes.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
He's very cheap.
Holy cow he's very cheap.
Oh my god, I'm, I'm a, I'm acheap thrill, that's all I have
to say.
So, uh, but okay.
So, but the reason why paul'smy favorite student is this one.
Okay, and so, paul, you I knowyou've heard me say this a few
times, I apologize, but you know.
So paul joined, uh, the thecourse at the age of 68.
(10:24):
And he had come to us with asci-fi dystopia story and he
told me about the story and myinitial thoughts, which I told
him.
Right, like, I don't sugarcoatthings, in fact, that's my
number one feedback I get fromstudents is it'd be nice if Rami
sugarcoated a little bit Islike, look, you know, know, this
(10:45):
pretty dark story, right, it ispretty grim message, and it's a
standalone.
You need a series and you knowit's hard to make it as a
standalone.
And so he turned that sci-fidystopia into a series.
Um, and it was an utter andabsolute failure.
I mean like just crash and burn.
(11:06):
And look, when I have studentsand unfortunately that's the
reality of many people's firstseries, in fact, you're going to
hear Joe's story in a minute,and that's exactly.
It wasn't quite as bad a crashand burn, sorry Paul, but it was
still a bit of a.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
It was still a car, wreck you know it's still
available, it might take offsometime.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, I mean, paul.
If the front wheels of the busdidn't hurt too bad, the back
wheels definitely hurt.
Sorry, keep going, rami.
He backed up.
He backed up, it wasn't as bad,and then drove back up.
Okay, so the first series wasrough, all right.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
There's got to be a silver lining here.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Rami, yeah, and the Rami is a very bad driver, just
for the record, so anyway it wasbad, but Paul wasn't going to
give up, right, and in 68, right, which I love.
I just love that right.
You know, he wasn't going togive up.
And it's so often like I havestudents who write that first
(12:09):
book or that first series andit's like, oh, this didn't work
out.
Well, screw it, I'm out.
But the thing is is like, thehard work's been done.
You've proven to yourself youcould write a book.
You've proven to yourself thatyou know how to carry a
narrative flow.
You've proven to yourself thatyou wonder that you can read the
market to some degree.
Right, like there's certainlymore skills there, but to some
degree.
And so Paul and I startedtalking about, well, what should
we pivot?
(12:30):
And he admitted to me that hereally likes Miss Marple-esque
style cozy mysteries.
And well, paul, tell us aboutwhat you write and where you're
at now.
Yeah, well and how many booksyou have.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
oh, I'm losing count on that.
Um, uh, anyway, we'll startwith the, the series.
Yes, uh, we did discuss that,maybe a change of direction,
which, uh and I did, and I Ilooked and I thought you know,
time for a new miss marple outthere.
But I want to start right fromthe beginning.
I don't want her to jump in at70.
(13:04):
She's going to start as a youngwoman.
So that's what I did.
I drew my Miss Riddell characterstarts as a young woman in her
20s and then by the end of theseries, I say the end of the
series, the end of the presentseries.
There's 10 books there.
She's I can't remember now 55,58, something like that.
(13:26):
Anyway, quite guiding on a bit,you know so, and I really felt
I could do better when Iunderstood them better, you know
.
So, yeah, I did and it didreally well.
I mean it was very.
Rami said the first one waspainful and oddly enough, I
didn't find it much as painfulthe second one, for the simpler
reason I didn't know what I wasdoing on the first one.
(13:48):
So nothing that happened reallyhurt, I mean, I had no idea.
But the second one was doing sowell that any time that it
didn't sell for the day, or youknow something, sales were down.
I panicked.
This is terrible.
This is terrible.
I find in many ways the secondseries was in some ways more
painful, but it was also muchmore successful, so that was a
(14:12):
good sign.
And how many have I written?
Well, there was the four in theoriginal series which, as I say
, is still available.
You know, if you want to allrush out and buy it and change
the whole dynamic here, thatwould be good.
And then there's ten in MissRiddell.
So that's that one.
And then there's four, or therewill be four in another month's
time my new one, which isInspector Ramsey.
(14:35):
And then I have two series ofbooks co-authored with Catherine
Mikel, and there's well thelast one in one.
Three book series just come out.
And then there's three in theother series, with a potential
fourth Right.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So I've already lost count.
I didn't count.
There's more than 16 bookswritten in what three years?
I think it is.
Is that right?
It's?
Speaker 3 (15:01):
four.
Now, I mean it's yeah four now.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Okay, yeah, it's four now.
I mean it's yeah, four now,okay yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, so and I know what you're going to say I
should write faster.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, that's right.
That is exactly right.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
I have it on a little loop here over on the tape.
Yeah, the Ram is saying writefaster.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
But that's the thing, right.
The thing I love about you isthat you're consistent, right.
And so you know you have beenwriting for four years now and
you've written 16 books, I thinkas if I counted right of
roughly about 50,000 words each,right.
And so when you break down thenumbers of that, that's like 500
(15:40):
, that's 900,000 words over fouryears.
Like that's not even even Imean, I can't do the math fast
enough but that's not even 500words a day, right, when you
break down the average right.
And so my, my criticism of youis to write faster.
Not not just for the sake ofwriting faster, but because if
(16:00):
you get 10, two series with 210book, like in the Cozy Mystery
space especially and then youbox set them you know two
10-book box sets in CozyMysteries they do sell.
You know there's evidence thatthat marketing strategy works,
(16:21):
okay.
So what do you know now thatyou wish you could have told
your 68-year-old self?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Well, I'm a bit like Julia on this.
I think in some ways it'sbetter not to know, to be frank.
But I had already done twobooks.
I published a book through Luloand I published a book through
Smashwords.
But that was the problem.
I had no idea what I was doinghere, and that's why I looked
(16:49):
around and why I eventuallychose to go with self-publishing
, because what I realized withthose two was that I had no idea
what I was doing and it just.
You know, yes, I've written abook and yes, I've managed.
I've learned to put it.
At least I didn't learn, to putit on, kdp, lulu did and
Smashwords did, so I hadn't evenreally learned that.
So I realized that this was notquite what I thought I wanted
(17:14):
to write a book.
Then I realized I wanted to putpeople read my books.
That's what I thought really,you see, the ambition keeps
creeping up.
As you go forward, ambitiongets harder, but so so, yeah, I
think, like I say, I knew what Ididn't know, which was
everything, and I needed to dothat.
(17:35):
But I think if I had beenoverwhelmed with it right at the
start, I might well have not, Idon't know.
I think I probably would havecontinued.
I'm a bit stubborn that way,you know.
But but yeah, I don't know whatI wish I'd known, except that,
you know, I had to knowsomething more than just how to
write a story.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So Well, now to totally leave you.
You know why not.
So I know that when youswitched to the Miss Randall
series, you kind of again jumpedoff the deep end a little bit,
where you knew what you liked,and it just kind of happened
(18:16):
that what you liked was you know, there was a an appetite for it
in the market, which is a greatplace to start.
And I think a lot of times whenpeople say, write what you know
, what they're saying is thatyou know what the part that they
omit is and, fingers crossed,what you're going to write,
people are going there's goingto be an appetite for it.
Maybe, you know.
You know, because maybe you're,you have a common denominator
(18:39):
of taste right With a largermarket and then with the second
series.
I know that we had a chat aboutit just the other day where you
were talking about the researchand the market research that
you'd done for that secondseries and where you had come
out on the opposite end and I'dlove if you, you know, I wish
like could you tell them whatyou told me on that call,
(19:01):
because that was absolute musicto my ears yeah, it was the
other day.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
You know, when you get to my age the memory isn't
always perfect, but basically wewould.
We've been doing an exercise inthe in the weekly class, in
which you look in the future,you look at the advanced, you
know, the sales of books comingup, the, uh, the searches, and
we did this in Rami's classabout a year or maybe a little
(19:29):
more than a year ago, because Iwas looking to replace the Miss
Riddell series with the next oneand I had some ideas, and so we
went through this exercise, asI say, about a year or more ago
now and the one that I thought Icould do.
There's various things in themParanormal, for instance, are
(19:51):
hugely popular, but I justcouldn't write that.
But the one that I saw perhapscoming along was male character
as the lead character and a dogand a female assistant sidekick.
It wasn't a strong evidence ofit, but there was certainly one
with Steve Higgs, and then therewas another two that Verity
(20:14):
Bright's female lead has a dog,and so on and so on.
So there was evidence there thata character with a dog and I
thought, well, let's give it ago.
A male character and a dog, andit is turning out very well,
but a fellow author told merecently that some of the
(20:37):
newsletters he gets from authors, two of them have announced
that their new series will be amale lead character with a dog
causing mystery.
So, as I said to rami, for thefirst time in my life I may
actually be slightly ahead ofthe fashion.
I may just be a fashion leaderat last.
I have never been a fashion.
Yeah, I am very pleased withmyself.
(20:59):
I did the research and it'sbeginning to look as though I
did it right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
But yeah, yeah and it's and it's beginning to look
as though I did it, right, yeah,and it's awesome.
And I know that.
You know, eight months ago,nine months ago, when we were
talking about that, like therewas a lot of frustration in your
voice where you were like Idon't know if I'm doing this
right, like I'm still rollingthe dice here, like, but you're
rolling weighted dice, right?
You know you're rolling dicethat are designed to be to kind
(21:28):
of fall in your favor, and Ithink that's really the best you
can do when you're writingfiction.
And I'm going to move to Joenow, but I just wanted to end
with one tiny thing, which Ihope is not a betrayal of
confidence.
Paul, on our uh of somethingthat you said to me which was
like when we were, because I metpaul and his wife when we were
(21:50):
having breakfast and he wassaying, you know, and now I'm
kind of thinking like how, howdoes this continue to be an
asset for my kids?
And how do I make this continueto be an asset?
And I, I just I, I mean, Ithink about that all the time
and my kids are nine and fourand, in all seriousness, I have
a contingency plan that if I gethit by a bus and then someone
(22:13):
rolls back over me.
Um that, um, I yes, paul, paulputs it in reverse like I have
author friends who I've alreadyapproached and said, like here
are my login details, here iswhat I'm working on, here's this
, you know, keep it going for aslong as possible.
Keep it going and you know, andit is an asset, it is something
(22:37):
that you can give your family.
It's, it's great.
Anyway, all right, caseymorales aka jd ruffa, jd Ruffin
aka Joe, I can't even what'syour other name now, it doesn't
matter, you never get it right.
Yeah, Joe, joe, something.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Chandler, he's just as bad at names as he is at
driving.
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
I love it.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So Joe, joe is, he's great, so I love.
I love Joe because this is myrelationship with Joe.
So Joe started, came to thecourse and I was coaching him
and he's ex Morgan Stanley andhe loves spreadsheets and
numbers and it was great becauseI could talk to him about
(23:21):
numbers and conversion rates andstuff like that and totally got
in.
And so here's a very analyticalmind who had written a four
book fantasy series.
That was, uh, you know, notdoing very well.
It was a great effort.
You know how many books wereout actually, but when this
story was only one or two books,I'd only put the first one out.
(23:43):
Only first one out.
Well, it wasn't doing greatOkay.
I blame you for the other three.
Yeah, it wasn't doing great andso I had said, as I say to
everyone, like, look, the bestchance you got is write a series
, write a series, write a series.
And you know like I talk aboutthat in the podcast with
Chandler, if you want to take alook at.
But you know, writing a seriesis really important, especially
(24:06):
for beginner writers, for amyriad of reasons, but anyway.
So Joe is working on thisfantasy series.
It's not really working for himand then he writes accidentally
, based on a dare sorry to ruinyour story for you a male-male
romance called my first date ormy accidental first date, or
(24:29):
something like that.
And that thing just explodedright, like I mean, he was just
selling and you know it wasdoing incredibly well, and he
gets on a coaching call and hetells me all about how this book
is selling incredibly well andoh my god.
And yeah.
So anyway, for book two of thefantasy series I was thinking
(24:51):
about, and I was just like whatthe hell are you talking about,
joe?
You can't write the.
You finish that romance series.
What's wrong with you?
You know the numbers.
I thought you were ananalytical mind, but here you
are like emotionally wanting towrite book two, give me a break,
you know.
So anyway, joe, tell us aboutwhat you're right with that
introduction.
Speaker 5 (25:11):
Wow uh, how do I follow rami?
Uh, so I had never, I had nevereven read romance.
Like the idea of romance isgross to me, like why would I?
I don't want to read it, Idon't want to write it, I don't
do any of that.
And so when rami said that Iwrote it on a dare, it's the
truth.
I mean, a group of friends whoprobably shouldn't be friends
(25:33):
were drunk around my kitchentable and we were exchanging
stories and I was a naive idiotwhen I had my first date at 20,
whatever I was and one of themlooked across the table and you
know, beer bottle in hand, youneed to write that story.
And I said no, no, no, it'sromance, I would never do that.
(25:53):
And he said no, no, no, I dareyou.
Okay, he invoked the guy code.
Now I have to do it.
So I wrote an 18,000 wordnovella, broke all the rules,
made my own cover, did not haveit edited, like I did everything
wrong, and I slapped it up onAmazon and it went to number one
on three different charts inAustralia and stayed there for
eight months and I don't knowwhy.
(26:14):
I still don't know why.
I don't understand it, but Ihad already Rama, you might
remember this, I'd actuallyalready finished that four book
fantasy series, along with aprequel, so it was five books,
and I had stubbornly writtenbook one of the next fantasy
series that failed even worsethan the first.
Uh, and that's when, likeyou've said, you don't have
(26:38):
permission to write any morefantasy.
So glad you had that power andI started writing the romance
stuff like that.
It made me cringe.
And now I'm 28 books later.
I'll have 30 books out by theend of the month, by the end of
December, and I'm paying bills.
And I left Morgan Stanley after20 years.
(26:59):
Wonderful career, great company, no hard feelings, never going
back.
I have my freedom.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Anyone from Morgan Stanley?
That's not what he said on ourone.
I'm letting you know.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
I'm way past my non-disclosure agreement.
I can say anything I want now,sorry.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Okay, and you just recently.
Was it recently, I can'tremember now you told me, but it
wasn't too long ago that youhit six figures.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Yeah.
So my goal I mean, because ofmy former life I'm very goal
oriented I have to have mybusiness plan at the end of the
year for the next year.
And so a year ago my goal for2024, whatever year this is was
to hit the run rate for $100,000in one month in 2024.
(27:47):
And I didn't care if I did itin February or November, it
didn't matter, I wanted to hitit one time.
And then my goal for 2025 wasto hit the run rate of my Morgan
Stanley total income one time,not to hit it the whole year,
but just one month.
So I hit the 100,000 run ratein February this year and I have
not dipped below it the wholeyear, but just one month.
So I hit the 100,000 run ratein February this year and I have
(28:07):
not dipped below it the entireyear.
In fact, I've gotten north of150 most of the year.
And I'm on my way,trajectory-wise, to replacing my
Morgan Stanley incomecompletely next year, not
hitting it once.
That's incredible coming pretty, they pay well at morgan
(28:27):
stanley, I've heard, yeah, and Iwas not doing badly at morgan's
great like they really wraptheir arms around their people
and take care of you.
So again yeah, so like all ofthis kind of surprised me and
came out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah so yeah, and the thing is it's like so.
There are two things I want toaddress here.
So the first thing is it didn'tsurprise me, um, and the reason
why it didn't surprise me isbecause whenever I have a
student who has a creative mindbut can read the numbers, I know
(29:00):
they'll do well, right, like.
So, six figures, like, all ofthat.
That's okay, maybe that was youknow, but I know that they can
do well, right, like.
So, six figures, like, all ofthat.
That's okay, maybe that was youknow, but I know that they can
do well, right, like, and itsucks, right, because a lot of
creatives reading the numbers,they hate it.
I spent, uh, two hours todaywith one of my co-authors, who
(29:22):
you know, who he's writing hisown stuff, so we're co-authoring
together, but he's also doinghis own series independently, so
he's been asking me for supportwith his ads.
And we spent two hours justlooking at spreadsheets and, uh,
he said to me at the end of it.
I was like, so what do we donext?
I said, well, tomorrow we'regoing to jump on and I'm going
(29:42):
to show you how to calculatethings like read through and
stuff like that.
And his, uh, his response was,uh, when do I write?
And I said, yeah, I don't know,because you spend more time.
The like, the the bigger youget, the more time you spend on
spreadsheets and stuff like that, because it really is about the
numbers.
The second thing point I wantto make about you and what
(30:05):
you've achieved is it could haveworked with fantasy and in fact
, your fantasy series isn'tdoing bad now.
Right, like I mean, you'veturned it around to some degree.
Speaker 5 (30:15):
Well, I mean, rami, I'll let you in on a secret.
I guess it's a really poorlykept secret because I published
it.
But I took that core fantasyseries that I still believe in
because I don't care what themarket says, it's a good series.
Um, and I created a maleromance storyline.
I added characters, created astoryline, made that the sort of
(30:36):
one of the central arcs of theof the series and I recovered it
, re-released it under my maleromance pen name and it is,
hands down, the best sellingthing I've ever done.
Yeah, and it got picked up byPodium for audiobooks, which the
first one releases in January.
It's getting picked up forinternational distribution and
(30:57):
German translation by a Germantranslation company translation
company.
So, like it's that originalseries that I still believe in
is doing so well, now that Iknow what I'm doing, and I've
rejiggered it and made it better.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, it is so.
I so often have students whocome in and they're like I've
been working on this story for14 years and I have this and
it's my dream and blah, blah,blah and it.
This is wonderful, but youhaven't looked at what works and
for a lot of times it's thatone little pivot and so in your
case it was leveraging youraudience with your male male
romance by adding the that in it.
(31:33):
But but a lot of times for alot of people and I believe,
julia, this applied to you butBarbara is your coach, so
forgive me if I'm misunderstoodwhat she told me, but it's like
(31:54):
it's looking at the first 50pages of your book and really
kind of going OK, well, this iswhat I know people are
interested in.
And you know, like, if you canget someone to page 50, unless
you really piss them off, whichis possible you probably are
going to have them to the endoff, which is possible you
probably are going to have themto the end.
And if the story delivers inthat last 250 pages, even if
you're breaking marketconventions, who cares?
Right, Like, because you'velured them in, you're not
(32:15):
Stephen King, so they need somekind of guarantee that they're
going to like it.
So play the game for the first50 pages and then be smart for
the rest.
Right, you know, is the thingAll right.
So now, to not make poor Juliasuffer, my question to each and
(32:37):
every one of you, ok, is I'llstart with Casey, we'll work
backwards.
Sorry, sorry, joe or JD, orwhatever the hell your name is,
and what is the one?
So someone's just starting out.
They're, they're just likethinking, even just thinking,
about writing their first book.
What's the one piece of advicethat you give them?
And the challenge here, guys,is please, you can't say yeah,
(32:59):
what Joe said yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
So I think my biggest piece of advice would be not to
get in a car with Rami, no.
So I would say and this is atough love piece of advice
because I genuinely want otherauthors to succeed this
community is so supportive ofeach other.
We really do want to help eachother, and it's one of the
(33:25):
wonderful parts of being awriter but understand that
writing a story is differentfrom telling a story, which is
different from writing businesswriting or technical writing or
any other kind of writing.
You've done your entire adultlife and I can't tell you how
(33:46):
many authors I meet who spent 50years writing technical writing
in a science field and thenthink that translates into skill
as a storyteller.
And sure it helps you know theEnglish language or whatever
language you speak, but itdoesn't help you be a good
fiction storyteller.
It's a fundamentally differentskill.
(34:07):
It's like saying you know, Ilearned how to play soccer as a
child, so I'm going to pick upan oboe and be great Like that's
not the same thing.
And so I think my advice wouldbe understand that that first
book is your college educationon the publishing industry in
the fiction world and know thatyour second book will be better
(34:30):
than your first, and your thirdwill be better than your second,
and this is a craft you have towork at.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
You're not going to be instantly good, so accept
that and just enjoy the ridereally well said and I know I
know you're not going to tootyour own horn, rami.
So this is where I think likepeople need to go through the
fundamentals of fiction andstory program, because you lay
it out so well.
It's some of the best, some ofthe.
It's one of the things that I'mmost proud of, and our whole
(34:57):
company, is the quality of thecontent and program that you've
created, and just even when wedo our webinars, you go through
the five-part story structureand then go through all the
different examples.
I mean you just look at thecomments and people are picking
their jaw up on the floor, offof the floor, because it's just
revolutionary for people, evenwho have went multiple years
(35:19):
getting journalism degrees andwriting degrees and whatever
else, because, to your point,it's just a different skill.
Speaker 5 (35:26):
And because Rami hit them with a bus and their jaws
on the floor.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
But then I lovingly patch you together and you're
stronger than ever.
That's, that's my, my MO.
Smack that glue on it.
There you go, rami.
All right, paul hit us.
One piece of advice to abeginner.
Someone started out.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Well, first of all, sign up with self-publishing, of
course.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
We didn't ask him to say that.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
No, I know, but I do agree.
I mean, I'm sure there areother things out there that
would work well, but yes, gethelp right from the start.
I would say it took me a fewyears before I realized I needed
help.
But, yeah, get help.
And also to learn about books.
I think I've read all my life,but in the last few years all my
(36:24):
reading has been nonfiction.
Just a little nod for Chandlerthere.
But you know, you have to readfiction if you're going to write
fiction.
Basically, you must read.
And then also, when you'rereading, find out what you like,
because if you like it, you'llwork at it and keep at it,
(36:46):
whereas if you don't, you willjust let it slide.
So yeah, I think, basicallythat's it read a lot and uh, and
know that you need help ifyou're going to do this and go
and get it yeah, I is reallygreat.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Sorry, just a really big point.
Like so, I've been takingtaekwondo now for a few months
and I've never done a martialart in my life and I'm not doing
it for any other reason thanjust some physical fitness.
But, um, and the guy that I sawin the parking lot, no, I'm
just kidding, but um, uh, I waswatching, um, a movie and in the
(37:21):
movie it was a boxing movie andit gave me an entirely
different perspective on thechoreographed fight scene
because of that experience ofbeing in a class where they're
teaching you about distance andfootwork and pacing and you know
, looking for opportunities andstuff like that, and it, and I
realized that like that's thedifference between reading a
(37:43):
book for pleasure, which is you,you know all the boxing movies
I've watched in my life where Inever once you know a modicum of
understanding, and you know,and it does add that whole
different perspective.
So, anyway, so last andcertainly not least, my new
(38:05):
favorite, sorry, paul, because,because my love is is easily
bought Julia, hit us.
What.
What is that piece of advicethat you would give the beginner
.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
What what Joe and Paul said?
No, no, I think, especially forsomeone like me.
I'm very type A personality andI think be prepared to put in
the work.
If you think that writing andpublishing a book is going to be
a little hobby, then it willpay out as it just being a
little hobby.
But if you want to really makeit a career, if you want to be
(38:39):
Joe which is still my goal itwas actually.
I heard about Joe during my oneof my initial calls and was
actually.
I heard about Joe during one ofmy initial calls and was told
there is this guy who's doingreally well and he left his big
paying career.
That's me.
I have a soul sucking job.
I don't want that anymore.
But put in the work and notjust.
I mean it's an investment, soit's a financial investment and
it's a time and energyinvestment.
(39:00):
I mean for me it's a wholeother full-time job.
It eats up my evenings and myweekends and I love it, but it's
definitely because I want thisto replace my current career.
I'm treating it as a career.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, it's amazing.
And two points One is that'snot what she said on our
one-on-ones and two, she worksfor Morgan Stanley.
But that aside, it's absolutelycorrect, right?
And I think I'd like to end onthis note and then pass the
baton over to Chandler.
The biggest criticism I have forevery new student who comes
(39:37):
into the course that I deal withand talk to is I always say,
well, what do you want out ofthis?
And I always get the same BSanswer.
Can I swear on this?
I guess not.
I'll just say BSN.
I want to say, and it's alwaysthe same thing, it's always oh
man, if I could just publishthis book and, you know, sell a
few copies, and if it affectsone person's life, it'll all be
(39:59):
worth it.
And it's just BS, right?
Because the reality is, is thata course like ours?
It's a one-year course, it'snot cheap.
If you're investing in this, youwant something out of it, right
?
Like?
You want a career, you wantsomething, and the fact that you
play it small serves no one,right, like?
Just admit it, admit that youwant it and go for it and treat
(40:21):
it seriously, and if you fail,let it suck.
Let it suck that it fails,because then you got to get up
and try again.
Right, like that's just what itis, but like if you fail and
you don't really care or atleast that's what you tell
yourself then you're going tojust be okay with failing and
never getting up, and it's mynumber that would be.
(40:41):
My advice to young writers isadmit that this matters and let
it hurt when it doesn't work out.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
So there you go, incredible.
I feel like we just went toRami's dinner table there for a
second and I feel like this isthe last thing you maybe
recently tell your kids it'sgonna hurt, but you can get up
if you really care about it.
This is good.
Hey, I'll wrap with this.
Just an incredible panel.
If you're listening to this orif you're watching this on our
(41:10):
YouTube channel, et cetera, Ihope that you enjoyed this as
much as I did.
It's really fun just being a flyon the wall and seeing, rami,
what you're creating in thefiction world and you guys what
you're creating.
It's incredible.
It's an incredible reminder forme of why I do what I do.
Why we do what we do is storieslike this right, and so I hope
people see, I hope you seeyourself in these different
(41:33):
stories, and this is a year ortwo years or maybe a few years
ahead of you, but it's whathappens when you commit and you
stop treating it like a hobby,as Julie said, and when you you
know you say, hey, I'm going toinvest in myself, I'm going to
do this thing, and maybe itworks out, maybe it doesn't, but
it's just really, really coolseeing what you guys have
(41:53):
created.
It's super inspiring.
This is going to fuel me for atleast the rest of the day here.
But a couple of things as wewrap.
Number one I will say guys,check out their books, buy their
books.
We'll link them up in the shownotes.
Go support them.
If you learn something, if youwere inspired and especially if
you like the genre that they'rewriting in, go grab a copy of
their book.
I know it'd mean the world tothem and to me.
(42:16):
And then, secondly, if you'reinterested in our help at
selfpublishingcom, we'd be happyto help with your book.
Go to selfpublishingcom, forwardslash fiction book a call with
the team.
I know that might be scary, butchat with the team, we'll walk
through.
Hey, what are your dreams andgoals?
Let's be honest about it andlet's start to make a plan.
So go to selfpublishingcom.
(42:37):
Forward slash fiction book acall with the team.
And I said this earlier, but Itruly believe this.
This is it's one of the thingsI'm most proud of in the whole
company, like the quality ofinstruction, of the course, of
the program, of the coaching, ofeverything associated with what
we do on fiction is just topnotch.
We've obviously got thefundamentals of fiction and
(42:58):
story program.
We've got the full-time fictionprogram.
Both are really really good,depending on where you're at, uh
, and and rami and the team havejust done an incredible job.
So if if you're serious aboutthis, get in touch with us.
Let's work together, uh, andhopefully make some more success
stories.
So thank you guys so much forbeing here today.
This was a blast.
(43:19):
We'll talk to you soon.
Hey Chandler Bolt here.
Welcome back to theSelf-Publishing School podcast
Special episode.
This week the fiction takeovercontinues.
The fictioneers have totallytaken over the podcast.
If you've been listening,throughout November NaNoWriMo
month we've had some awesomeepisodes.
We talked about seventh-yearfiction learning from someone
(00:27):
who's done it.
We talked about fiction bookcovers.
We talked about fiction editing, and this is the final episode
in this series.
So this is a bit of a roundtable.
We've got authors successfulfiction authors at all different
journeys or parts of theirjourney.
We've got the man head offiction, rami Vance, aka Ari
(00:47):
Vance.
You've probably seen hisepisodes on the show.
If you haven't, those are goodones to go back.
We've got episodes in thebacklog on the fundamentals of
fiction and story.
We've got episodes in thebacklog on what it takes to
become a full-time fictionauthor and all that stuff.
So if you want to check thisout, you're welcome to.
But Rami has built the fictionprogram from the ground up, has
helped hundreds, thousands ofauthors I don't even know how
(01:09):
many books be published in thetrenches, doing thousands of
coaching calls.
I mean sold 80,000 copies ofhis books just last year.
This is the fiction resource Idon't.
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize that.
But the fiction resources thebest on the internet and so you
(01:29):
guys are going to get to see thebehind the scenes of that here
today.
So I've already talked too long.
I'm going to shut up and getout of the way, uh, and maybe
ask some dumb questions here orthere as the ignorant nonfiction
guy on the show.
But we've got multiple peopleon today.
Rami is steering the ship.
Rami, I'll pass it to you.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
No, thank you.
Yeah, I know you always do theintroduction of how many books I
sold last year, but the truthis it's like I am.
There are so many people doingway better than me.
You know, I'm just pleased.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
No deflecting Rami.
No deflecting rami, no deflect,just take the compliment.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
No, no, no but in all seriousness, I just wanted to
make that point of, like, I lovethe fact that I pay my mortgage
off of vampire money.
It just doesn't get better thanthat.
So, uh, yeah, um, okay.
So I'm really excited aboutthis one because, um, you know,
I've been running the fictionprogram now I think it's like
six years now and that like itwas its own thing for about five
(02:30):
or six years now, and over theyears I've seen students come
and go and there's that kind ofcommon denominator of success
that I've seen continuouslyappear.
And you know, if I were to kindof, you know, boil down the
common denominator of success toa couple points, the first
(02:50):
thing is is that they fullyunderstand that writer's right,
right and, as we've talked toPaul, joe and Julia, who are on
various stages of theirauthoring career and, you know,
are headed in the rightdirection and, in Joe's case,
are in state right, he's foundthe place, you know.
(03:10):
And not only are they doingthat, but they're willing to
listen, right, they're willingto play the fool before they can
become the master, and I thinkthat's really important.
Like you're ultimatelycoachable and you know that you,
you don't know everything rightand I don't know everything,
but I can point you in the rightdirection and, you know, try to
(03:32):
give you that that.
That, um, stop you fromspinning your wheels.
The other thing is is thatthey're not afraid of hard work,
and that's the thing that Ithink is probably the biggest
misconception about writingfiction is that, oh, I'm going
to write the one book, I'm goingto post it up onto Amazon.
I was going to sell a millioncopies because my mother told me
I was special and that rarelyworks right, you know, and it
(03:56):
was clearly my mother's a liar,because that's what she told me
and it didn't work.
Like that, mom, what the Anyway?
And so, to that end end, youcan have a fiction career if
you're willing to roll up yoursleeves and work, and these
three people are the epitome ofexactly that right.
Every single one of them haveworked their butts off, and so
(04:16):
we got julia, we got paul and wegot joe, and I'm just so happy
to have, you know, students whoare doing it right and are
progressing.
So now there's kind of aprogression here, and I wanted
to start with Julia, who is, I'dsay, at the beginning, but has
already hit some of those keymetrics where it's like, oh OK,
(04:38):
julia, like it's simple, right,like just keep going, like
that's the answer, just keepgoing.
So, julia, I'm going to askeveryone this question.
By the way, so sorry for tothrow you under the bus, julia,
the rest of them get time toprepare, but love going first.
Yeah yeah, and it's not a lady'sfirst situation this time,
(05:02):
julia, so just so you know.
But my question to you is thiswhat would you, what do you wish
you had known two years ago,like what do you wish you had
known when it popped into yourhead?
I want to write a book that younow know.
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Oh my gosh, great, great question.
You know what?
I'm actually glad that I was asignorant as I was going into
this, because I think if I hadknown the things that come after
just the end right Typing theend to my novel I think I would
have been discouraged, maybeBecause there's a lot more to
(05:45):
publishing a book than justwriting the words on the page.
And I'm beyond grateful that Ifound self-publishing and have
the team that I have and theresources that I have, because I
am 100% convinced that withoutall of you I would not be doing
what I'm doing as well as I'mdoing after two months into this
(06:08):
journey of publishing.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I didn't answer your question, but no, you didn't.
But I love hearing what you'resaying and I can see Chandler
already chastising me for whatI'm going to say next.
I think we pointed you in theright direction and we cut the
fat, but like you have, youreally did.
You know you put in the workright and you put in the effort.
(06:31):
So tell us a little bit aboutyour story.
Just give us that top lineelevator pitch piece of it.
But I really want to kind ofask two questions as you're
telling the story, if you cankind of address these two points
as you're telling the story, ifyou can kind of address these
two points as you're telling thestory the vision of the story
that you had before you joinedand then how that vision evolved
(06:54):
as you got deeper into theprocess and started to see, like
what the market is doing, whatother authors are doing that you
know, kind of immerse yourselfinto the genre requirements,
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Yeah, I mean I started working on this book
years and years ago and neverreally considered publishing it
until my husband sort of saidhey, you know what are you doing
in your evenings?
I mean it was sort of a it wasmy habit that I never told
anybody about, not even thoseclosest to me, because I thought
, well, I mean, who am I?
And then my husband said youknow, actually, this is really
good, tell me more about this,read it to me.
And he was the one who pushedme to publish.
(07:31):
And at first I mean I was soignorant I knew nothing about
anything and thought, oh yeah,trad publishing and all those
things.
But I'm a control freak, I liketo have creative control over
all things at all times andthought, okay, maybe I'll.
I think the self-publishingroute is the way to go.
No way, no idea where to go.
(07:51):
On that Did a bunch of researchcame across selfpublishingcom
called had that initialconversation and then the second
conversation and the thirdconversation.
I may not have been asexcessive as Joe in my calls,
(08:13):
but I talked a few times andthen at that point probably
about 85% of my manuscript wasdone.
So I was pretty far into theprocess, into the writing
process, but then quicklyrealized, once I started having
my coaching calls I had thegroup calls with Rami and Joe
and then my individual coachingcalls with Barbara realized that
there's so much more to it theediting, the marketing.
I mean I did not know the firstthing about even uploading to
(08:36):
KDP, writing a blurb for cryingout loud, didn't know any of
that and I mean it's a steeplearning curve and I'm still
still feel like I really don'tknow my head from my bottom most
of the time.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, it's hilarious because I'll work.
I work with co authors now,like that's a big part of what I
do.
And so here are people who arelike writing 20,000 words a week
, we're talking like two threetimes a week.
We're going 000 words a week,we're talking like two three
times a week.
We're going over the story,we're doing all this stuff.
And then at the end I'll say,hey, why don't you give me a
rough draft of a blurb and I'll,I'll fix it up, but just give
me.
I just want to know what youthink should be in the blurb.
(09:17):
And uh, I mean the pain andsuffering they feel.
You know, they wrote, they justwrote a hundred thousand word
book, but to write that 200 wordblurb Terrible.
Yeah, ok, cool.
Well, I have one more questionfor you, julia, but I'm going to
go jump to Paul.
So I do have bad news for Juliaand Joe, and I do apologize to
(09:39):
both of you now, I really do,but Paul is my favorite student
ever and everyone is just buyingfor second place, Okay, so,
yeah, that's right.
Paul and I had breakfast inNiagara-on-the-Lake not too long
ago.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
We just happened to be in the same that's all it
takes.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
He's very cheap.
Holy cow he's very cheap.
Oh my god, I'm, I'm a, I'm acheap thrill, that's all I have
to say.
So, uh, but okay.
So, but the reason why paul'smy favorite student is this one.
Okay, and so, paul, you I knowyou've heard me say this a few
times, I apologize, but you know.
So paul joined, uh, the thecourse at the age of 68.
(10:24):
And he had come to us with asci-fi dystopia story and he
told me about the story and myinitial thoughts, which I told
him.
Right, like, I don't sugarcoatthings, in fact, that's my
number one feedback I get fromstudents is it'd be nice if Rami
sugarcoated a little bit Islike, look, you know, know, this
(10:45):
pretty dark story, right, it ispretty grim message, and it's a
standalone.
You need a series and you knowit's hard to make it as a
standalone.
And so he turned that sci-fidystopia into a series.
Um, and it was an utter andabsolute failure.
I mean like just crash and burn.
(11:06):
And look, when I have studentsand unfortunately that's the
reality of many people's firstseries, in fact, you're going to
hear Joe's story in a minute,and that's exactly.
It wasn't quite as bad a crashand burn, sorry Paul, but it was
still a bit of a.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
It was still a car, wreck you know it's still
available, it might take offsometime.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, I mean, paul.
If the front wheels of the busdidn't hurt too bad, the back
wheels definitely hurt.
Sorry, keep going, rami.
He backed up.
He backed up, it wasn't as bad,and then drove back up.
Okay, so the first series wasrough, all right.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
There's got to be a silver lining here.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Rami, yeah, and the Rami is a very bad driver, just
for the record, so anyway it wasbad, but Paul wasn't going to
give up, right, and in 68, right, which I love.
I just love that right.
You know, he wasn't going togive up.
And it's so often like I havestudents who write that first
(12:09):
book or that first series andit's like, oh, this didn't work
out.
Well, screw it, I'm out.
But the thing is is like, thehard work's been done.
You've proven to yourself youcould write a book.
You've proven to yourself thatyou know how to carry a
narrative flow.
You've proven to yourself thatyou wonder that you can read the
market to some degree.
Right, like there's certainlymore skills there, but to some
degree.
And so Paul and I startedtalking about, well, what should
we pivot?
(12:30):
And he admitted to me that hereally likes Miss Marple-esque
style cozy mysteries.
And well, paul, tell us aboutwhat you write and where you're
at now.
Yeah, well and how many booksyou have.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
oh, I'm losing count on that.
Um, uh, anyway, we'll startwith the, the series.
Yes, uh, we did discuss that,maybe a change of direction,
which, uh and I did, and I Ilooked and I thought you know,
time for a new miss marple outthere.
But I want to start right fromthe beginning.
I don't want her to jump in at70.
(13:04):
She's going to start as a youngwoman.
So that's what I did.
I drew my Miss Riddell characterstarts as a young woman in her
20s and then by the end of theseries, I say the end of the
series, the end of the presentseries.
There's 10 books there.
She's I can't remember now 55,58, something like that.
(13:26):
Anyway, quite guiding on a bit,you know so, and I really felt
I could do better when Iunderstood them better, you know
.
So, yeah, I did and it didreally well.
I mean it was very.
Rami said the first one waspainful and oddly enough, I
didn't find it much as painfulthe second one, for the simpler
reason I didn't know what I wasdoing on the first one.
(13:48):
So nothing that happened reallyhurt, I mean, I had no idea.
But the second one was doing sowell that any time that it
didn't sell for the day, or youknow something, sales were down.
I panicked.
This is terrible.
This is terrible.
I find in many ways the secondseries was in some ways more
painful, but it was also muchmore successful, so that was a
(14:12):
good sign.
And how many have I written?
Well, there was the four in theoriginal series which, as I say
, is still available.
You know, if you want to allrush out and buy it and change
the whole dynamic here, thatwould be good.
And then there's ten in MissRiddell.
So that's that one.
And then there's four, or therewill be four in another month's
time my new one, which isInspector Ramsey.
(14:35):
And then I have two series ofbooks co-authored with Catherine
Mikel, and there's well thelast one in one.
Three book series just come out.
And then there's three in theother series, with a potential
fourth Right.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So I've already lost count.
I didn't count.
There's more than 16 bookswritten in what three years?
I think it is.
Is that right?
It's?
Speaker 3 (15:01):
four.
Now, I mean it's yeah four now.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Okay, yeah, it's four now.
I mean it's yeah, four now,okay yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, so and I know what you're going to say I
should write faster.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, that's right.
That is exactly right.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
I have it on a little loop here over on the tape.
Yeah, the Ram is saying writefaster.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
But that's the thing, right.
The thing I love about you isthat you're consistent, right.
And so you know you have beenwriting for four years now and
you've written 16 books, I thinkas if I counted right of
roughly about 50,000 words each,right.
And so when you break down thenumbers of that, that's like 500
(15:40):
, that's 900,000 words over fouryears.
Like that's not even even Imean, I can't do the math fast
enough but that's not even 500words a day, right, when you
break down the average right.
And so my, my criticism of youis to write faster.
Not not just for the sake ofwriting faster, but because if
(16:00):
you get 10, two series with 210book, like in the Cozy Mystery
space especially and then youbox set them you know two
10-book box sets in CozyMysteries they do sell.
You know there's evidence thatthat marketing strategy works,
(16:21):
okay.
So what do you know now thatyou wish you could have told
your 68-year-old self?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Well, I'm a bit like Julia on this.
I think in some ways it'sbetter not to know, to be frank.
But I had already done twobooks.
I published a book through Luloand I published a book through
Smashwords.
But that was the problem.
I had no idea what I was doinghere, and that's why I looked
(16:49):
around and why I eventuallychose to go with self-publishing
, because what I realized withthose two was that I had no idea
what I was doing and it just.
You know, yes, I've written abook and yes, I've managed.
I've learned to put it.
At least I didn't learn, to putit on, kdp, lulu did and
Smashwords did, so I hadn't evenreally learned that.
So I realized that this was notquite what I thought I wanted
(17:14):
to write a book.
Then I realized I wanted to putpeople read my books.
That's what I thought really,you see, the ambition keeps
creeping up.
As you go forward, ambitiongets harder, but so so, yeah, I
think, like I say, I knew what Ididn't know, which was
everything, and I needed to dothat.
(17:35):
But I think if I had beenoverwhelmed with it right at the
start, I might well have not, Idon't know.
I think I probably would havecontinued.
I'm a bit stubborn that way,you know.
But but yeah, I don't know whatI wish I'd known, except that,
you know, I had to knowsomething more than just how to
write a story.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So Well, now to totally leave you.
You know why not.
So I know that when youswitched to the Miss Randall
series, you kind of again jumpedoff the deep end a little bit,
where you knew what you liked,and it just kind of happened
(18:16):
that what you liked was you know, there was a an appetite for it
in the market, which is a greatplace to start.
And I think a lot of times whenpeople say, write what you know
, what they're saying is thatyou know what the part that they
omit is and, fingers crossed,what you're going to write,
people are going there's goingto be an appetite for it.
Maybe, you know.
You know, because maybe you're,you have a common denominator
(18:39):
of taste right With a largermarket and then with the second
series.
I know that we had a chat aboutit just the other day where you
were talking about the researchand the market research that
you'd done for that secondseries and where you had come
out on the opposite end and I'dlove if you, you know, I wish
like could you tell them whatyou told me on that call,
(19:01):
because that was absolute musicto my ears yeah, it was the
other day.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
You know, when you get to my age the memory isn't
always perfect, but basically wewould.
We've been doing an exercise inthe in the weekly class, in
which you look in the future,you look at the advanced, you
know, the sales of books comingup, the, uh, the searches, and
we did this in Rami's classabout a year or maybe a little
(19:29):
more than a year ago, because Iwas looking to replace the Miss
Riddell series with the next oneand I had some ideas, and so we
went through this exercise, asI say, about a year or more ago
now and the one that I thought Icould do.
There's various things in themParanormal, for instance, are
(19:51):
hugely popular, but I justcouldn't write that.
But the one that I saw perhapscoming along was male character
as the lead character and a dogand a female assistant sidekick.
It wasn't a strong evidence ofit, but there was certainly one
with Steve Higgs, and then therewas another two that Verity
(20:14):
Bright's female lead has a dog,and so on and so on.
So there was evidence there thata character with a dog and I
thought, well, let's give it ago.
A male character and a dog, andit is turning out very well,
but a fellow author told merecently that some of the
(20:37):
newsletters he gets from authors, two of them have announced
that their new series will be amale lead character with a dog
causing mystery.
So, as I said to rami, for thefirst time in my life I may
actually be slightly ahead ofthe fashion.
I may just be a fashion leaderat last.
I have never been a fashion.
Yeah, I am very pleased withmyself.
(20:59):
I did the research and it'sbeginning to look as though I
did it right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
But yeah, yeah and it's and it's beginning to look
as though I did it, right, yeah,and it's awesome.
And I know that.
You know, eight months ago,nine months ago, when we were
talking about that, like therewas a lot of frustration in your
voice where you were like Idon't know if I'm doing this
right, like I'm still rollingthe dice here, like, but you're
rolling weighted dice, right?
You know you're rolling dicethat are designed to be to kind
(21:28):
of fall in your favor, and Ithink that's really the best you
can do when you're writingfiction.
And I'm going to move to Joenow, but I just wanted to end
with one tiny thing, which Ihope is not a betrayal of
confidence.
Paul, on our uh of somethingthat you said to me which was
like when we were, because I metpaul and his wife when we were
(21:50):
having breakfast and he wassaying, you know, and now I'm
kind of thinking like how, howdoes this continue to be an
asset for my kids?
And how do I make this continueto be an asset?
And I, I just I, I mean, Ithink about that all the time
and my kids are nine and fourand, in all seriousness, I have
a contingency plan that if I gethit by a bus and then someone
(22:13):
rolls back over me.
Um that, um, I yes, paul, paulputs it in reverse like I have
author friends who I've alreadyapproached and said, like here
are my login details, here iswhat I'm working on, here's this
, you know, keep it going for aslong as possible.
Keep it going and you know, andit is an asset, it is something
(22:37):
that you can give your family.
It's, it's great.
Anyway, all right, caseymorales aka jd ruffa, jd Ruffin
aka Joe, I can't even what'syour other name now, it doesn't
matter, you never get it right.
Yeah, Joe, joe, something.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Chandler, he's just as bad at names as he is at
driving.
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
I love it.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So Joe, joe is, he's great, so I love.
I love Joe because this is myrelationship with Joe.
So Joe started, came to thecourse and I was coaching him
and he's ex Morgan Stanley andhe loves spreadsheets and
numbers and it was great becauseI could talk to him about
(23:21):
numbers and conversion rates andstuff like that and totally got
in.
And so here's a very analyticalmind who had written a four
book fantasy series.
That was, uh, you know, notdoing very well.
It was a great effort.
You know how many books wereout actually, but when this
story was only one or two books,I'd only put the first one out.
(23:43):
Only first one out.
Well, it wasn't doing greatOkay.
I blame you for the other three.
Yeah, it wasn't doing great andso I had said, as I say to
everyone, like, look, the bestchance you got is write a series
, write a series, write a series.
And you know like I talk aboutthat in the podcast with
Chandler, if you want to take alook at.
But you know, writing a seriesis really important, especially
(24:06):
for beginner writers, for amyriad of reasons, but anyway.
So Joe is working on thisfantasy series.
It's not really working for himand then he writes accidentally
, based on a dare sorry to ruinyour story for you a male-male
romance called my first date ormy accidental first date, or
(24:29):
something like that.
And that thing just explodedright, like I mean, he was just
selling and you know it wasdoing incredibly well, and he
gets on a coaching call and hetells me all about how this book
is selling incredibly well andoh my god.
And yeah.
So anyway, for book two of thefantasy series I was thinking
(24:51):
about, and I was just like whatthe hell are you talking about,
joe?
You can't write the.
You finish that romance series.
What's wrong with you?
You know the numbers.
I thought you were ananalytical mind, but here you
are like emotionally wanting towrite book two, give me a break,
you know.
So anyway, joe, tell us aboutwhat you're right with that
introduction.
Speaker 5 (25:11):
Wow uh, how do I follow rami?
Uh, so I had never, I had nevereven read romance.
Like the idea of romance isgross to me, like why would I?
I don't want to read it, Idon't want to write it, I don't
do any of that.
And so when rami said that Iwrote it on a dare, it's the
truth.
I mean, a group of friends whoprobably shouldn't be friends
(25:33):
were drunk around my kitchentable and we were exchanging
stories and I was a naive idiotwhen I had my first date at 20,
whatever I was and one of themlooked across the table and you
know, beer bottle in hand, youneed to write that story.
And I said no, no, no, it'sromance, I would never do that.
(25:53):
And he said no, no, no, I dareyou.
Okay, he invoked the guy code.
Now I have to do it.
So I wrote an 18,000 wordnovella, broke all the rules,
made my own cover, did not haveit edited, like I did everything
wrong, and I slapped it up onAmazon and it went to number one
on three different charts inAustralia and stayed there for
eight months and I don't knowwhy.
(26:14):
I still don't know why.
I don't understand it, but Ihad already Rama, you might
remember this, I'd actuallyalready finished that four book
fantasy series, along with aprequel, so it was five books,
and I had stubbornly writtenbook one of the next fantasy
series that failed even worsethan the first.
Uh, and that's when, likeyou've said, you don't have
(26:38):
permission to write any morefantasy.
So glad you had that power andI started writing the romance
stuff like that.
It made me cringe.
And now I'm 28 books later.
I'll have 30 books out by theend of the month, by the end of
December, and I'm paying bills.
And I left Morgan Stanley after20 years.
(26:59):
Wonderful career, great company, no hard feelings, never going
back.
I have my freedom.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Anyone from Morgan Stanley?
That's not what he said on ourone.
I'm letting you know.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
I'm way past my non-disclosure agreement.
I can say anything I want now,sorry.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Okay, and you just recently.
Was it recently, I can'tremember now you told me, but it
wasn't too long ago that youhit six figures.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Yeah.
So my goal I mean, because ofmy former life I'm very goal
oriented I have to have mybusiness plan at the end of the
year for the next year.
And so a year ago my goal for2024, whatever year this is was
to hit the run rate for $100,000in one month in 2024.
(27:47):
And I didn't care if I did itin February or November, it
didn't matter, I wanted to hitit one time.
And then my goal for 2025 wasto hit the run rate of my Morgan
Stanley total income one time,not to hit it the whole year,
but just one month.
So I hit the 100,000 run ratein February this year and I have
not dipped below it the wholeyear, but just one month.
So I hit the 100,000 run ratein February this year and I have
(28:07):
not dipped below it the entireyear.
In fact, I've gotten north of150 most of the year.
And I'm on my way,trajectory-wise, to replacing my
Morgan Stanley incomecompletely next year, not
hitting it once.
That's incredible coming pretty, they pay well at morgan
(28:27):
stanley, I've heard, yeah, and Iwas not doing badly at morgan's
great like they really wraptheir arms around their people
and take care of you.
So again yeah, so like all ofthis kind of surprised me and
came out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah so yeah, and the thing is it's like so.
There are two things I want toaddress here.
So the first thing is it didn'tsurprise me, um, and the reason
why it didn't surprise me isbecause whenever I have a
student who has a creative mindbut can read the numbers, I know
(29:00):
they'll do well, right, like.
So, six figures, like, all ofthat.
That's okay, maybe that was youknow, but I know that they can
do well, right, like.
So, six figures, like, all ofthat.
That's okay, maybe that was youknow, but I know that they can
do well, right, like, and itsucks, right, because a lot of
creatives reading the numbers,they hate it.
I spent, uh, two hours todaywith one of my co-authors, who
(29:22):
you know, who he's writing hisown stuff, so we're co-authoring
together, but he's also doinghis own series independently, so
he's been asking me for supportwith his ads.
And we spent two hours justlooking at spreadsheets and, uh,
he said to me at the end of it.
I was like, so what do we donext?
I said, well, tomorrow we'regoing to jump on and I'm going
(29:42):
to show you how to calculatethings like read through and
stuff like that.
And his, uh, his response was,uh, when do I write?
And I said, yeah, I don't know,because you spend more time.
The like, the the bigger youget, the more time you spend on
spreadsheets and stuff like that, because it really is about the
numbers.
The second thing point I wantto make about you and what
(30:05):
you've achieved is it could haveworked with fantasy and in fact
, your fantasy series isn'tdoing bad now.
Right, like I mean, you'veturned it around to some degree.
Speaker 5 (30:15):
Well, I mean, rami, I'll let you in on a secret.
I guess it's a really poorlykept secret because I published
it.
But I took that core fantasyseries that I still believe in
because I don't care what themarket says, it's a good series.
Um, and I created a maleromance storyline.
I added characters, created astoryline, made that the sort of
(30:36):
one of the central arcs of theof the series and I recovered it
, re-released it under my maleromance pen name and it is,
hands down, the best sellingthing I've ever done.
Yeah, and it got picked up byPodium for audiobooks, which the
first one releases in January.
It's getting picked up forinternational distribution and
(30:57):
German translation by a Germantranslation company translation
company.
So, like it's that originalseries that I still believe in
is doing so well, now that Iknow what I'm doing, and I've
rejiggered it and made it better.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, it is so.
I so often have students whocome in and they're like I've
been working on this story for14 years and I have this and
it's my dream and blah, blah,blah and it.
This is wonderful, but youhaven't looked at what works and
for a lot of times it's thatone little pivot and so in your
case it was leveraging youraudience with your male male
romance by adding the that in it.
(31:33):
But but a lot of times for alot of people and I believe,
julia, this applied to you butBarbara is your coach, so
forgive me if I'm misunderstoodwhat she told me, but it's like
(31:54):
it's looking at the first 50pages of your book and really
kind of going OK, well, this iswhat I know people are
interested in.
And you know, like, if you canget someone to page 50, unless
you really piss them off, whichis possible you probably are
going to have them to the endoff, which is possible you
probably are going to have themto the end.
And if the story delivers inthat last 250 pages, even if
you're breaking marketconventions, who cares?
Right, Like, because you'velured them in, you're not
(32:15):
Stephen King, so they need somekind of guarantee that they're
going to like it.
So play the game for the first50 pages and then be smart for
the rest.
Right, you know, is the thingAll right.
So now, to not make poor Juliasuffer, my question to each and
(32:37):
every one of you, ok, is I'llstart with Casey, we'll work
backwards.
Sorry, sorry, joe or JD, orwhatever the hell your name is,
and what is the one?
So someone's just starting out.
They're, they're just likethinking, even just thinking,
about writing their first book.
What's the one piece of advicethat you give them?
And the challenge here, guys,is please, you can't say yeah,
(32:59):
what Joe said yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
So I think my biggest piece of advice would be not to
get in a car with Rami, no.
So I would say and this is atough love piece of advice
because I genuinely want otherauthors to succeed this
community is so supportive ofeach other.
We really do want to help eachother, and it's one of the
(33:25):
wonderful parts of being awriter but understand that
writing a story is differentfrom telling a story, which is
different from writing businesswriting or technical writing or
any other kind of writing.
You've done your entire adultlife and I can't tell you how
(33:46):
many authors I meet who spent 50years writing technical writing
in a science field and thenthink that translates into skill
as a storyteller.
And sure it helps you know theEnglish language or whatever
language you speak, but itdoesn't help you be a good
fiction storyteller.
It's a fundamentally differentskill.
(34:07):
It's like saying you know, Ilearned how to play soccer as a
child, so I'm going to pick upan oboe and be great Like that's
not the same thing.
And so I think my advice wouldbe understand that that first
book is your college educationon the publishing industry in
the fiction world and know thatyour second book will be better
(34:30):
than your first, and your thirdwill be better than your second,
and this is a craft you have towork at.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
You're not going to be instantly good, so accept
that and just enjoy the ridereally well said and I know I
know you're not going to tootyour own horn, rami.
So this is where I think likepeople need to go through the
fundamentals of fiction andstory program, because you lay
it out so well.
It's some of the best, some ofthe.
It's one of the things that I'mmost proud of, and our whole
(34:57):
company, is the quality of thecontent and program that you've
created, and just even when wedo our webinars, you go through
the five-part story structureand then go through all the
different examples.
I mean you just look at thecomments and people are picking
their jaw up on the floor, offof the floor, because it's just
revolutionary for people, evenwho have went multiple years
(35:19):
getting journalism degrees andwriting degrees and whatever
else, because, to your point,it's just a different skill.
Speaker 5 (35:26):
And because Rami hit them with a bus and their jaws
on the floor.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
But then I lovingly patch you together and you're
stronger than ever.
That's, that's my, my MO.
Smack that glue on it.
There you go, rami.
All right, paul hit us.
One piece of advice to abeginner.
Someone started out.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Well, first of all, sign up with self-publishing, of
course.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
We didn't ask him to say that.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
No, I know, but I do agree.
I mean, I'm sure there areother things out there that
would work well, but yes, gethelp right from the start.
I would say it took me a fewyears before I realized I needed
help.
But, yeah, get help.
And also to learn about books.
I think I've read all my life,but in the last few years all my
(36:24):
reading has been nonfiction.
Just a little nod for Chandlerthere.
But you know, you have to readfiction if you're going to write
fiction.
Basically, you must read.
And then also, when you'rereading, find out what you like,
because if you like it, you'llwork at it and keep at it,
(36:46):
whereas if you don't, you willjust let it slide.
So yeah, I think, basicallythat's it read a lot and uh, and
know that you need help ifyou're going to do this and go
and get it yeah, I is reallygreat.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Sorry, just a really big point.
Like so, I've been takingtaekwondo now for a few months
and I've never done a martialart in my life and I'm not doing
it for any other reason thanjust some physical fitness.
But, um, and the guy that I sawin the parking lot, no, I'm
just kidding, but um, uh, I waswatching, um, a movie and in the
(37:21):
movie it was a boxing movie andit gave me an entirely
different perspective on thechoreographed fight scene
because of that experience ofbeing in a class where they're
teaching you about distance andfootwork and pacing and you know
, looking for opportunities andstuff like that, and it, and I
realized that like that's thedifference between reading a
(37:43):
book for pleasure, which is you,you know all the boxing movies
I've watched in my life where Inever once you know a modicum of
understanding, and you know,and it does add that whole
different perspective.
So, anyway, so last andcertainly not least, my new
(38:05):
favorite, sorry, paul, because,because my love is is easily
bought Julia, hit us.
What.
What is that piece of advicethat you would give the beginner
.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
What what Joe and Paul said?
No, no, I think, especially forsomeone like me.
I'm very type A personality andI think be prepared to put in
the work.
If you think that writing andpublishing a book is going to be
a little hobby, then it willpay out as it just being a
little hobby.
But if you want to really makeit a career, if you want to be
(38:39):
Joe which is still my goal itwas actually.
I heard about Joe during my oneof my initial calls and was
actually.
I heard about Joe during one ofmy initial calls and was told
there is this guy who's doingreally well and he left his big
paying career.
That's me.
I have a soul sucking job.
I don't want that anymore.
But put in the work and notjust.
I mean it's an investment, soit's a financial investment and
it's a time and energyinvestment.
(39:00):
I mean for me it's a wholeother full-time job.
It eats up my evenings and myweekends and I love it, but it's
definitely because I want thisto replace my current career.
I'm treating it as a career.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, it's amazing.
And two points One is that'snot what she said on our
one-on-ones and two, she worksfor Morgan Stanley.
But that aside, it's absolutelycorrect, right?
And I think I'd like to end onthis note and then pass the
baton over to Chandler.
The biggest criticism I have forevery new student who comes
(39:37):
into the course that I deal withand talk to is I always say,
well, what do you want out ofthis?
And I always get the same BSanswer.
Can I swear on this?
I guess not.
I'll just say BSN.
I want to say, and it's alwaysthe same thing, it's always oh
man, if I could just publishthis book and, you know, sell a
few copies, and if it affectsone person's life, it'll all be
(39:59):
worth it.
And it's just BS, right?
Because the reality is, is thata course like ours?
It's a one-year course, it'snot cheap.
If you're investing in this, youwant something out of it, right
?
Like?
You want a career, you wantsomething, and the fact that you
play it small serves no one,right, like?
Just admit it, admit that youwant it and go for it and treat
(40:21):
it seriously, and if you fail,let it suck.
Let it suck that it fails,because then you got to get up
and try again.
Right, like that's just what itis, but like if you fail and
you don't really care or atleast that's what you tell
yourself then you're going tojust be okay with failing and
never getting up, and it's mynumber that would be.
(40:41):
My advice to young writers isadmit that this matters and let
it hurt when it doesn't work out.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
So there you go, incredible.
I feel like we just went toRami's dinner table there for a
second and I feel like this isthe last thing you maybe
recently tell your kids it'sgonna hurt, but you can get up
if you really care about it.
This is good.
Hey, I'll wrap with this.
Just an incredible panel.
If you're listening to this orif you're watching this on our
(41:10):
YouTube channel, et cetera, Ihope that you enjoyed this as
much as I did.
It's really fun just being a flyon the wall and seeing, rami,
what you're creating in thefiction world and you guys what
you're creating.
It's incredible.
It's an incredible reminder forme of why I do what I do.
Why we do what we do is storieslike this right, and so I hope
people see, I hope you seeyourself in these different
(41:33):
stories, and this is a year ortwo years or maybe a few years
ahead of you, but it's whathappens when you commit and you
stop treating it like a hobby,as Julie said, and when you you
know you say, hey, I'm going toinvest in myself, I'm going to
do this thing, and maybe itworks out, maybe it doesn't, but
it's just really, really coolseeing what you guys have
(41:53):
created.
It's super inspiring.
This is going to fuel me for atleast the rest of the day here.
But a couple of things as wewrap.
Number one I will say guys,check out their books, buy their
books.
We'll link them up in the shownotes.
Go support them.
If you learn something, if youwere inspired and especially if
you like the genre that they'rewriting in, go grab a copy of
their book.
I know it'd mean the world tothem and to me.
(42:16):
And then, secondly, if you'reinterested in our help at
selfpublishingcom, we'd be happyto help with your book.
Go to selfpublishingcom, forwardslash fiction book a call with
the team.
I know that might be scary, butchat with the team, we'll walk
through.
Hey, what are your dreams andgoals?
Let's be honest about it andlet's start to make a plan.
So go to selfpublishingcom.
(42:37):
Forward slash fiction book acall with the team.
And I said this earlier, but Itruly believe this.
This is it's one of the thingsI'm most proud of in the whole
company, like the quality ofinstruction, of the course, of
the program, of the coaching, ofeverything associated with what
we do on fiction is just topnotch.
We've obviously got thefundamentals of fiction and
(42:58):
story program.
We've got the full-time fictionprogram.
Both are really really good,depending on where you're at, uh
, and and rami and the team havejust done an incredible job.
So if if you're serious aboutthis, get in touch with us.
Let's work together, uh, andhopefully make some more success
stories.
So thank you guys so much forbeing here today.
This was a blast.
(43:19):
We'll talk to you soon.
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