EP105 Mycelium and Mycorrhizal Mechanics with guest Stephanie Garcia

Mycelium and mycorrhizae are essential parts of the Soil Food Web, and using cultivation methods that support soil fungi can lead to the best cannabis you’ve ever grown. In this episode of Shaping Fire, host Shango Los talks with mycologist Stephanie Garcia about the functions of mycelium and mycorrhizae, some common misunderstandings, and best practices for amendments, pH, watering and transplanting to create and sustain a thriving rhizosphere.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
Fungus of all kinds are really becomingpopular with a wider range of people.
Psilocybin is slowly starting to belegalized for research and therapy while
psilocybin microdosing has explodedin every corner of the country,
we are hearing reports offungus that eats microplastics,
how Turkey tail helps cure cancer,
and how lion's main mushroom arepretty much your brain's best friend.

(00:28):
Of course, culinary mushrooms havebeen enjoyed by humans forever,
but we are seeing a huge resurgence inhome and small farm growing of culinary
mushrooms,
meaning that rare non-commercial varietiesare popping up at farmer's markets
and in the neighborhood trades. Last year,
I discovered that I totallyloved wine cap mushrooms,
but I had never come across that craftmushroom until gifted it by a home

(00:50):
cultivator. Now I'm constantlysearching for them. And finally,
the fungus in the soil is essential forall the food we eat and the flowers we
love, especially cannabis,
so many mushroom varieties touching ourlives and being helpful in so many ways.
If you wanna learn about cannabis healthcultivation and technique efficiently
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(01:56):
And be sure to check out theMultiverse Beans Instagram,
you are listening to Shaping Fire.And I'm your host, Chango Los.
My guest today is StephanieGarcia Mycologist.
Stephanie Garcia has a degreein botany and plant pathology,
and completed her master's program atthe University of Hawaii in tropical
conservation biology,

(02:17):
focusing on below ground fungal diversityover varying environmental gradients
on Hawaii Island. Aftercompleting her masters,
she proceeded to tour Southeast Asiastudying local plants and mushrooms,
and landed back in Oregon,
spending time between cannabis harvestsand the Bureau of Land Management.
She now studies both Endoand Ecto Microrisal Fungi and their associations and

(02:40):
benefits to various plant hosts Asquality compliance manager at Microrisal
applications.
Stephanie and her husbandEmery are expecting their first child in just a couple
weeks. So we are especially glad thatshe chose to fit us in before that major
milestone. And if you listen closely,
you'll hear their dog's Normand Betty in the background.

(03:00):
On today's episode of Shaping Fire,
we will make sure we are all on the samepage regarding the differences between
mycelium, mycorrhiza, endo,Mica, and Ectomic Iza,
followed by a deeperdiscussion about mycelium.
Specifically during the secondset, we will focus on Endo Mica,
its functions and how you can damage itsfunctioning by inhibiting the symbiosis

(03:22):
taking place in the soil.
And we finished the episode with a wideranging discussion of best practices for
creating a thriving environmentfor mycelium and mycorrhiza,
including Innoculants, properwatering pH, proper nutrition,
and the use of ground covers.Welcome to Shaping Fire, Stephanie.
Thanks for having me, Chango.

(03:42):
So let's start off withtwo bits of vocabulary that are misused all the time in
soil discussion. Mice andmycelium will be used,
you know, obviously theentire episode today,
but it isn't uncommon for folksto use the two words micro and
mycelium interchangeably and,and they're not the same thing.
So will you start byteasing those apart for us?

(04:06):
Certainly. Yeah, that'sa, that's a good question.
I like that you point out that some peoplecan get certain things confused like
that. So when we talk about mycelium,
we're actually talking aboutthe vegetative structure of
a fungi.
So you could think of it asbeing analogous to plant roots.

(04:28):
So you could think of it as fungal roots.
So that's what the MyUM,that's what mycelium is.
So if you have a mushroom,
if you go mushroom huntingand you find a fruiting body,
like say you go for morels right now.
Cause it's a perfect time ofyear to be looking for morels,
there's gonna be an entire networkof their root system underground.

(04:52):
Now, when we are talking about micro,
that's actually describinga symbiotic relationship.
It's a mutualism and it's occurringbetween the plant roots and those
fungi fungal roots.
So Mic Rae is,
is more of an activity than a physical

(05:17):
thing that, like, that has a, a namethat's a noun. It's, it's, it's,
it's more active than that. It, itdescribes this relationship. It isn't,
it isn't necessarily like, oh, there'sa mice right there. It's more like,
ah, those are two, that,
that is a host and a fungalnetwork exhibiting Mike Rza

(05:38):
activity.
Yeah, yeah, that would be correct. So,you know, I mentioned the morale earlier.
That is a Microrisal fungi,
but you wouldn't call their root systema mic. Mm-hmm. , right?
So you could say a moraleis a microrisal fungi,
but when you want to describe what,
how the morales mycelium isinteracting with its plant host,

(06:02):
that would be the Microrisalsymbiosis. So yeah,
micro is really describing the symbiosis.
It's used incorrectly all thetime, , and like, you know,
earlier in my soil knowledge,I definitely was, um, uh,
you know, doing that myself.So, um, and while we're at it,

(06:22):
because even though during the firstset we're going to discuss mycelium
networks, and then we're gonnafocus more on mice and set two,
I am pretty sure that you're goingto be talking about mice, um,
as part of your answersduring set one. So we,
we should probably also get the,
the other key vocabulary thatwe want to tease apart too,

(06:44):
which is the differencebetween endo micro and ectomic.
Yeah. So Endo Micro ii,when you think of endo,
you think of inside, orthat's a Latin, you know,
meaning for endo is inside. Um,
so really what it's describing is what'shappening more on the cellular level

(07:07):
inside of the root. But ifwe go even more broadly,
endo micro fungi form symbioticrelationship with about
80 to 85% of, um, plant species.
So all of our agro, most ofour agricultural crops, um,
a lot of our ornamentalcrops, all grasses.

(07:30):
So I call 'em more of our breadand butter of Microrisal fungi
because they associate with sucha wide range of host plants.
Um, now let's go back down intothe root. On the cellular level.
Hyphy will penetrate into theroot, and it goes between cells,
but it also goes inside the cells.

(07:52):
And then inside the cell is really wherethe nutrient exchange is occurring.
And the endo,
they make a specializedstructure called arcus.
So that's a site of nutrient exchange. Um,
most endo microrisal fungi also, uh,

(08:14):
form vesicles. That's a storage structure.
These fungi are really good, um,
at helping plants overcomedrought type conditions. Vesicles,
they believe for, you know, onereason why they can do that. So,
uh, anyway, the endo microrisal fungi,

(08:35):
you'll also see them orhear them being referred to
as am f and that just standsfor our muscular micro
eel. Fungi.
You can also hear or see thembeing referred to as vam,
that's vesicular our muscularmicro e micro eel fungi.

(08:55):
So they don't refer them anymore,
refer to them anymore as the vam,
because some species don'tproduce those vesicles. So yeah,
we're getting really detailedthere on the endo microrisal fungi.
But it is important to understandthat these hfe of these types
of fungi, they go inside the cell andthen the nutrient exchange is happening,

(09:19):
happening, um, withinthe cytosolic fluid. Now,
ectomic Isal fungi, on the other hand,
they don't associatewith as broad of a host,
um, range.
So they're associating with maybefive to 10% of plant species,
primarily conifers, some hardwoods.

(09:44):
And then there are someagriculturally important plants that,
uh, form the ectomic isal symbiosis.
So then if we go down tothat cellular level again,
and we compare it to theendo microrisal fungi,
the ecto microrisal fungialso make specialized

(10:05):
structures. They do alsopenetrate into the root,
but they also make, um, a mantle.
So mycelium will cover the outside ofthe root, kind of like a sock, right?
Say your foot is like the root.
So the mycelium coversthe root on the outside,
and then it alsopenetrates inside the room.

(10:28):
But instead of carrying outthe nutrient exchange in
an individual plant cell,
the mycelium travels aroundthe cells and they call that a
heartache net.
And so this is another morespecialized structure that they make.
They don't produce anytype of arcus or vesicles.

(10:53):
Uh, so yeah, they're just,
they're doing all their nutrientexchange in between cells.
And, uh, since we're talking primarilyabout canvas cultivation and, uh,
the ecto is really only,uh, interacting with,
I think you said like 10 or 15% ofplants, we're probably gonna be talking,
when we talk about mice today, we're,
we're going to be generally assumingwe're talking about endo mice,

(11:17):
unless you point out otherwise, right?
Yeah, that's correct. Uh, cannabisdoesn't associate with ectomic fungi,
so.
Right on. Well, that makes iteasier today, . So, so, okay.
So that's why I wanted to start out therewith the definitions of mycelium mice
and then, and then endo mice just foreverybody's benefit. So with that said,

(11:37):
we will, we will, uh,jump back and talk, uh,
much more in detail about miceduring set two, but, but here,
let's smooth on in right now totalking about mycelium networks to, um,
get a really good understandingon what those are. So,
so mycelium are the fleshyvegetative white strands that
form massive networks in the soil.We now know what does it consist of?

(12:00):
Like, what, what actuallydo, do the white strands,
what are they made of otherthan just generally fungus and,
and how are they made?
Hmm, interesting. Um, well,
fungal cell walls are made of chitin,
so that's really what they're composed of.
And they're made throughmyosis. I mean, you know,

(12:23):
they're growing justin the same way fresh,
fresh growth would occurfrom a plant, right?
So they're reallyexploratory, like you said,
most of them are morewhiteish tannish in color. Um,
mycelium can consist of justone long tubular like structure,
and they can also havesepta, which, um, divides,

(12:48):
divides this long tubular structure. Um.
And, and for folks who aren'tfamiliar with myosis, um,
would you just explain that real quick.
? Sure. So I mean, that's a,it's reproduction, right? Mm-hmm.
, so we're basicallyhaving cell division occur. Um,

(13:08):
and then the DNA is being passed. There'sa, there's, I mean, it's a pretty, uh,
technical process and it alsodepends on the species, right? But.
Even, even what you already said justkind of makes it clear, uh, uh, uh,
what I was trying to getting atis like, what is the, what is the,
the mycelium making machine? Andthe answer is itself is right by,

(13:29):
by cellular splitting, justmaking itself more of itself.
Right? Right.
Right on. So for, forthose of us who, you know,
are transplanting our plants,or maybe we're, um, out, uh,
in the field collecting indigenousmicroorganisms or, um, or,
or whatever we're doing, um,
we will come across mycelium strandsthat are like a whole range of colors

(13:52):
from like the bright white,which I always think of as ohs.
Those look really healthy. Andwhereas some are, you know,
more of a whiteish grayor some are like a, a,
a whiteish beige are are,are these different, um,
strains of mycelium thatare these different colors? Or does, or does, you know,
a healthy thriving mycelium?

(14:15):
Is it always white and,
and these colorations are signsof some kind of imbalance?
Yeah, that's a really greatquestion. Um, yeah, it,
it is really speciesdependent. Um, you know,
morels for example, they,
they don't have this brightwhite necessarily mycelium,

(14:37):
especially when you have a menculture. Um, so I would say,
you know, that, yeah,
there may be some type of environmentalcondition that might make them this more
dull yellow, um, you know, maybethey're not the most healthy,
but also we have a lot of differentcolors of mycelium depending

(14:58):
on the species.
That's good to know too, because, um, Iknow, you know, as I said my question,
I thought that I needed it all to bebright and I should not judge my mycelium
necks were harshly just because theydon't look bright. And cuz that could,
that could cause me to, uh, incorrectlydiagnose this situation. Mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.
, mm-hmm. .So, um, if there are different, um,

(15:21):
strains of mycelium, um,
how do mycelium networks ofdifferent species interact?
Do they, do they, you know,
explore and then butt upto each other and then,
and then connect even though they'redifferent species? Or are these,
are these mycelium networksof, of different strains, um,

(15:45):
uh, kind of wrapped around eachother, but not necessarily connected?
That's another really greatquestion. Chango ,
I'm glad you're full of 'em. . Uh,
so I thi I would say that'sreally species dependent.
We know in some microrisal fungi there is
competition mm-hmm.. So, um, you know,

(16:07):
I know of one researcher that works onRza Pogon that is an ectomic isel fungi.
Um, but they'll be more competitivefor their resources. So,
um, they don't necessarily,they may, you know,
they may just exist wrapped aroundeach other, but really they're,
they're competing for resources. Um, so.

(16:30):
So, so in that case, um,
I think that most of us think aboutthe mycelium networks as being these,
these nutrition transport networks,and they're connecting everybody.
And you know, in my mind, Igo so far as to think, oh,
they're trying to helpeverybody get along,
but actually there is competitionbetween my serial relationships.
So they are,

(16:52):
they are bonding withnetworks that they see as
allies and then,
and then turning a cold shoulder andnot connecting to networks that they see
as competitive.
Yeah. You could think of it that way,
but one thing I do wanna justclarify is that, um, there are,

(17:12):
there are other,
there's another group of fungi that we'rekind of forgetting about a little bit.
We're forgetting aboutour sap prophetic fungi.
So they're not necessarilycreating a network between plants,
um, you know, amongst each other.
They're mycelium isreally there to decay dead

(17:33):
organic matter, and they'rethe recyclers, right? I mean,
they're recycling the duff. And so those,
those are a little different in thatthey're creating their own little network
just so that they can eat more,right? So they can decay more,
and then eventually maybe they can fruit.
You know, I think you're,I think you're right.

(17:54):
That was good that you picked that up. I,
I definitely think that I was puttingthe responsibilities for mycelium
and sacro prophetic fungusinto the same basket. Yeah,
that's good for me to tease thoseapart too. So, so, um, so the,
the mycelium networks, while I waspicturing them being large, like,
like in, uh,

(18:15):
covering a wide space and thereforehad this idea that they were also
going from plant to plant. I don't knowexactly how I was picturing that, but,
um, but really, uh,
perhaps mycelium networks are alittle bit more localized based on,
um, I don't know, the project or their,
the responsibility of thatparticular mycelium network.

(18:37):
Yeah, I like that. You can think ofit almost like they're little project.
Cuz even thinking outside of the sap,
prophetic fun fungi that aredecaying this dead organic matter,
we also have parasitic fungi, right?
So we know that those couldspread from, um, you know, they,
those could certainly make anetwork and go from tree to tree,
but they could also be morelocalized just dependent on,

(19:01):
is their host available? Um,what can they infect, right?
Um,
where do they infect because wehave other fungi that are primarily
existing on leaves that are causingdamage there, right? Mm-hmm.
mm-hmm.. So, but yeah,
I think when we think about mycelium,

(19:21):
and one reason why I love microisel fungi so much is that we really
think of them more as the protagonist.
And we wanna think of mycelium as beingthis just incredible thing and this
network that spreads, you know, betweenthe trees and, like you say, try to,
you know, help everybody get along anddistribute out nutrients really well. Um,

(19:43):
so I think when we thinkof my cial networks,
we really do think about the morebeneficial kind. And that would be more,
you know, like the micro iselfungi mm-hmm. mm-hmm.
. Um, and if Itend to drift into giving, um,
credit to mycelium that'sfor SRO prophetic fungus, be,
be sure to call me out on it again,
because I don't want to bespreading the bro science. We're,

(20:03):
we're here to get it. Right. So.
, I mean, but those aregreat too because, you know, I mean,
we would have just meters andmeters of duff in our forests and,
and there's also some verytasty s prophetic fungi,
so we don't wanna forget about those.
For for sure. All right. So, so let'stalk about some of these tasks that, um,
that we rely on mycelium,uh, to do. So. So,

(20:27):
um, why don't you justin instead of me, like,
just kind of like trying to pulla list out of the air, um, you're,
you're the expert. So, so, uh,
let me just kind of hand you the micand tell us a little bit about the,
the varied tasks that myceliumis doing, um, in the soil,
um, you know, as part of its role.
Sure, yeah. And I do justwanna say, you know, I'm,

(20:50):
I still don't consider myself an expert.I just consider myself, you know,
constantly, uh, tryingto educate myself in the,
in this pursuit of knowledgespecifically with fungi. So, um,
I appreciate you sayingthat, but, uh, you know.
You can be humble, but likewe, we all, we all heard your,
your credentials at the beginning ofthe show and, and you're here cuz like,

(21:12):
you know, you're kindof the expert. So, so I,
I appre I appreciate yourhumility on it, but, uh,
I have a feeling you have all theinformation that we're looking for.
Well, I'll strive, I'll strive to meetthose expectations. . Okay.
So you wanna know about theroles of mycelium mm-hmm.
within the soil,please. Okay. So I think,

(21:32):
I think mycelium, youknow, it's main objective,
and it may be more of aselfish objective on its part,
is to gain enough resourcesto reproduce ,
right? That's gonna be the main goal.It's like, I'm gonna explore the soil,
I'm going to try to gain resourcesenough to take care of myself.

(21:53):
Um,
so I think that's oneobjective is that the mycelium
is getting what it needs to,
to go through its own lifecycle. Mm-hmm. . Um,
I think another thing is just veryexploratory. I think there's like,
let's say these side benefitsof mycelium and what it's doing

(22:16):
within our soil. So forthose mycelium to be,
um, exploring the soil, they'rereally contributing to soil structure,
um, to water infiltration,
which also helps preventingrunoff and providing climate
resistance. So I think there's, um,

(22:40):
there's a big role for them there. Um,
if I can go back to my micro isel fungifor a moment. Mm-hmm. , uh,
our slar micro isel fungi,
they release a glycoprotein,it's called Guin.
And that is just thisincredible protein that helps

(23:01):
to, um, aggregate soil.
And that's really fascinating.Not only for this,
um, you know, helping tokeep soil structure and the water, water infiltration,
but it also can holdon to carbon when your
soil has more structure to it,

(23:22):
and then those nutrientsare more available.
So I think that there's, um,
a really big role for mycelium to play in
some of this, um, nutrientcycling, excuse me.
We also,
we also know that somemycelium will actually

(23:45):
excrete,
secrete enzymes and that canhelp make a lot of different
nutrients more biologically availableones that wouldn't be otherwise.
And then it's, it allows, you know,
this soluble nutrients to actually beabsorbed and then transported to the
plant. Um, so there's,

(24:09):
I think that these are some of, some ofthe main ones just right away that I'm,
that I can think of. Um.
Let's talk about the transportationof, uh, nutrition. So, uh,
I'm realizing now that ofsome of what I imagined,
um, mycelium networks doing,
which would be like movingnutrition between different

(24:32):
plants, that's probably a, a, uh,
a larger role than mycelium isdoing. And that might be more of a,
a sap prophetic fungus, uh, role is,
is the mycelium going to be mostly, um,
moving nutrition from thesurrounding soil environment and just

(24:54):
bringing it back to, um,the, the root zone, um,
as essentially to the Mike Rza,which is going to interact with the,
with the plant. Um, uh, soit's, it's kind of like,
it is, it is out searchingfor nutrition for its own,

(25:14):
um, uh, life benefit.
But then by doing that,
it is also bringing that nutritionback to the micro rise, which is,
which we will we'll discussmore in detail later,
is then is then interactingwith the plant. I is,
is my range of where it'sdoing that nutrition work?

(25:36):
Do I have that right where it'sa bit closer to the root zone?
Yeah, so I think that the sap propheticfungi and the Mike Reil fungi,
they're really working together.
So the sap prophetic fungi that thosefungi may be able to break down.
Um, you know, specifically morecarbon than the microrisal fungi.

(25:58):
And as we know, microrisal fungi, they,
they're really associatingwith plants cuz they can't,
they're not able to access the carbon ontheir own. That's, that's the exchange.
Um, I, I'll save this for thenext session really. But, um,
so let's say the sap prophetic fungi,
their primary role is gonna be decayingthis dead organic matter, um, you know,

(26:21):
making carbon available for the plant,
but then the fungi or themicro isal fungi, they're,
they're more exploratory andthey're actually able to deliver
the nutrients to the plant throughtheir symbiosis, right? Mm-hmm.
. So the sap prophetic fungi,
they may make some of thesenutrients biologically available,

(26:45):
but they don't really have that deliverymechanism unless they're very close to
the plant root zone.
So the micro isel fungi and theirmeial network is really incredible
because they can increase the root, um,
absorption zone. Like our plants canonly reach so far mm-hmm. ,

(27:06):
um, mycelium is so much smaller, uh,
in size than a plant root. Right.
And then they can travel for so muchlonger than our plant roots can.
So they can really becomeexploratory in the soil,
uh, trait areas that our plants cannot,

(27:27):
and then they're able to accessnutrients that the plant isn't,
and then their mycelium is like a littlehighway mm-hmm. , um,
of nutrients going to the plant. Um,
I do also wanna mention, whichI just think is interesting,
that micro isel fungi, um, you know,
there's evidence to suggest that they'veevolved from sap prophetic fungi.

(27:50):
So some microrisal fungistill do hold the genes
that can do these other typesof breakdown of nutrients.
Um, so I just think that'sreally interesting because
some microrisal fungi we say are obligate,
they have to have a plant hose cuzthey can't access their own carbon.

(28:13):
But then we know some microrisalfungi are not obligate
and they can, they still maintain some,
some of these genes so that they canexist without the plant host. Mm-hmm.
.
So, so, um, you know, we're bigsupporters of the soil of the soil food,
web ex explanation forlooking at soil here.

(28:34):
What role does myceliumplay in the soil assisting
microbe communities and, and otherlife in the soil? Because I'm,
I'm guessing that it isn't just arelationship between, you know, uh,
uh, breaking down nutritionand transporting nutrition towards the root zone.
Um, I'm, I'm guessing that, thatall the inhabitants of the, um,

(28:58):
rhizosphere have got varying relationshipswith mycelium that are beneficial.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah,certainly. Well, we did talk, you know,
briefly about soil structure mm-hmm.
and water infiltration.Right. And this hyphy, um,
you know, going throughthe soil and allowing that

(29:22):
infiltration of water and then justhelping the soil actually hold the water.
Right.
And then we did speak a littlebit about how when you have
this really more positive,let's say soil structure,
it can hold on, um, tocarbon more readily.

(29:42):
And so we know that, um,
our soil organic carbon isfood for microbes, right?
So if you have an increasedamount of soil carbon,
you typically see an increasein, in the microbial activity.
So I think mycelium plays ,it's like cyclical, right? Mm-hmm.
. So they grow and theyexplore and then carbon's held onto,

(30:05):
and then these microbes are like, oh,this is awesome. You know, I'm gonna,
we're going to, there's gonna be moremicrobes cuz we have more food. And,
and then they thrive. And then thesoil just becomes, um, just more,
it's just more and more healthy, right?
Right. Every, everybody gets fedwhen mycelium is doing its job.
Right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

(30:26):
. Um,
so I know that some people talkabout how mycelium can help remediate
the soil that's been contaminatedby a whole range of things.
But specifically, uh, I'mcurious about, um, uh, uh, uh,
pathogenic fungus like that, that,that cause like, you know, um,
fusarium root rot andthings like that can,

(30:48):
can our ally myceliumclean up pathogens like
that in the soil?
Yeah, that is such a greatquestion. Um, you know,
I told you I really like theprotagonist fungi. So my ,
my plant pathology ISNisn't as up to speed,
but it just made me thinkof, um, you know, there's,

(31:10):
there are products out therethat are, they're, well,
those are more bacterial that arekind of fighting the fungi. Mm-hmm.
, I'm trying to thinkof these, this, um, activi, you know,
that's a product that, um,
but it's bacterial and that'sfighting off the fungi. I don't know.
I think that's such a good question. ButI do remember this one little project,

(31:33):
uh,
I did when I was living in Hawaii witha friend and he was really into IMO four
s mm-hmm. .And, um, you know,
his knowledge is somuch greater than mine,
so I'm not gonna try toexplain anything like that.
But we were traveling around to thesecoffee plantations that had this,
um, pathogenic fungi thatoccurred on the coffee leaf,

(31:56):
and we made a solution of the immo four.
And it's hard to say exactly whichcomponent maybe was fighting, but we,
we just sprayed this onthe coffee, um, you know,
trees that had this fungal infectionand came back and scored it.
And the ones that we scored,

(32:16):
there was a significant impact andreduction of that fungal infection.
Now we know Immo four s don'tjust contain fungi, right? So,
um, you know, it was a fun littleproject, but still kind of hard to say.
And I'm not really sureof the research on that.
Yeah, that's that'sfair enough. And, and I,

(32:37):
I think that that your answerpoints to two things, number one,
for folks who are interestedin, in, well cannabis, but, but,
uh, fungal networks in general, um,and are just kind of coming up. Um,
you know, and, and,
and through university there is a lotof research around cannabis and soil
science and fungus to behad, you know, this is,

(32:59):
this is a great timeto be become, you know,
have an interest in cannabis and becomeand becoming out of school. And then,
and then the second thing that youranswer points out is, um, you know,
we're always talking about thepower of, of, of indu in industrial,
indigenous microorganisms here mm-hmm., and Im oh four, uh,
you know, while it has got a significantrepresentation of fungus in it,

(33:21):
it's this magical combinationof nature that just,
just rebalances things like in, inyour example. And, uh, and you know,
so many of us, uh, containerbased cannabis growers, um,
we struggle with with fusarium.
So anytime I talk to somebody whofocuses their work on, on the root zone,

(33:41):
I kind of ask everybody, Hey, do you havea good solution for fusarium? Mm-hmm.
. And, and, and, you know,everybody kind of says the same thing.
Like, like, like, you know,
the research hasn't actuallyfound a really good one yet.
And generally you shouldjust replace your soil. But,
but this is the first time that Imo four has been brought up. And,
and that makes a lot of sense.It would be interesting if, if,
if somebody were to have, you know,say say like, like an installed,

(34:07):
you know,
large scale bed where itwould be a real pain in the
butt to replace the soil unlike, youknow, like a 20 gallon pot or something,
which is really easy mm-hmm., um, you know, doing a,
doing a significant applicationof Im O four might be one,
might be one fusariumsolution. So, alright, well,
I don't wanna get too distracted off onthe fusarium thing, but, but while we,

(34:30):
while we're there, um, you know, Ifigured we might as well hit it. So,
so alright, great. So, um, so,
so now that we are understanding whatthe Mycelium networks are doing and that
they are, are breaking down nutritionand bringing it back to the,
the rhizosphere, where, where, um,I guess I'll say for the moment,
it gets handed off to Mike Rza thatdoes the exchange with the plant that we

(34:52):
will pick up on set two.
So let's go ahead and take our firstshort break and then when we come back,
we will start talking about Mike Rza.
You are listening to Shaping Fireand my guest today is Mycologist
Stephanie Garcia. And, you know,
without these advertisersshaping fire would not happen.
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(35:38):
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get anywhere else. Welcome back.You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I'm your host Shangle Los, and my guesttoday is Mycologist Stephanie Garcia.
So, um, during the first set,
we learned all about mycelium and thatit is also not sap prophetic fungus

(41:30):
and all of the wonderful things thatmycelium do. Um, first for itself,
then for the plant, but then also foreverybody else who hangs out in the,
in the root zone.
So now we're gonna talk specificallyabout the symbiotic relationship between,
um, mycelium networks and plantsthat are expressed through,

(41:52):
uh, through mica. So, so wetouched on Mica a bit at the,
at the beginning of the first set to,
to separate Endo Micro and Ectomic, um,
based on how they, um, um,interact differently with,
with the, with the root zone,with the roots themselves. Um,

(42:13):
let's start with how does, um,
Mike Rza colonize the plant root system
of cannabis? From, from whatI understand, y you know,
there is a point when a, whena plant is, I don't know,
new or young where, um, it,
it is not com it is notfully colonized by Mike Rise,

(42:37):
uh, um, by B by Fungus. That is,
is is boy, it's hard to talk about itonce, once Mike Raza is not a noun.
Once it's a description of asymbiotic relationship. It's a lot,
it's a different way to talkabout it. So, so how does,
how do you talk about it, Stephanie?I didn't realize , like, like,

(43:00):
like how do you talk aboutit in the, in, in, in, as,
as a professional whotalks about this all day?
Yeah, I mean, I guess you could, you know,
instead of maybe just focusingon the mica or mic, you know,
Mike Fungi, you can say theMike Hy or the Fungal Hyphy,
you know.
I see. So using the word micaas a, as a, as a description of,

(43:22):
of, of, of the, the type of fungus.So, so it'd be appropriate to say,
um, you know, Stephanie, uh,
would you explain to us howmic rza funk colonized the
plant root system of cannabis?
Yeah, yeah. All right. I'll.
Take, I'll take, I'lltake that, absolutely.
And we'll go with that. .Thank you. Yeah. So yeah, sure. So,

(43:45):
so when we think aboutthe beginning of the
symbiosis, we first wanna askourselves, how is this high fq growing?
Where is this coming from? Right? Um,
so now in nature,
hyphy is the greatest, let'ssay, propag that we have.

(44:08):
And so when we say Propag,we're talking about, um,
if we think about cannabis, a propagfor cannabis, is it seed, right? Mm-hmm.
. Uh, whenwe think about fungi,
there can be a fewdifferent types of propag,
and specifically ourvascular micro isel fungi.
So in nature,

(44:29):
hyphy or mycelium is thegreatest propag in nature.
So we can start with, um, we canstart with fragments of mycelium.
We can start with spores.
That's another thing that wouldbe considered a propag, right?
We're trying to propagate this, um,
life form and however itpropagates it should be able

(44:52):
to then become an adult or, you know,
go past this vegetativestage. So we've got, um,
we've covered the mycelium, the spore,
and then our vascular mirial fungiare interesting in that pieces of
root,
or we can call root fragmentsthat previously contained or were

(45:13):
colonized by the ar micro isel fungi can
also act as a propag.
So some of these structures thatare inside the root, like hfe,
uh, they're produced within the root.Uh, those can also act as propag.
So if you were, um,

(45:35):
incorporating some microrisal, uh,
inoculum into your gross system,
you're gonna have some of these propagyou put, right? Mm-hmm. ,
and you're probably going offthis label recommendation. Uh,
to my understanding,
there aren't any productscurrently in the US that

(45:58):
claim, uh, mycelium as a propag.
And I think that has somethingto do more with shelf life, um,
possibly with how you quantify it,you know, how it can be regulated,
things like that. So, um,primarily if you were to like,
let's say get some microrisal inoculumand look at it under the microscope,

(46:20):
you're gonna see spores and you'llprobably see pieces of root.
So you're gonna start withthat, right? And then from that,
the mycelium will grow, um,that's gonna be growing,
you know, within your soil.There's a lot of research about,

(46:41):
you know,
the signaling that goeson for these fungi and how
did they actually connect withthe plant root, right? Um,
that's really fascinating stuffbecause way back when it was
really understood or thought,you know, believed that, um,

(47:02):
the plant regulated the symbiosis.
So we know that plantsrelease through exudates.
Um, we know that there's a lot of othertypes of biochemical signaling going on,
but now some of the peopleresearching this signaling
are realizing that it's a, it's a lotmore complex than we thought initially.

(47:26):
And that potentially the fungi has alittle bit more say in how it connects.
Mm-hmm. , I usedto think of it like, you know,
the plant is there, the fungus approaches,
like it's trying to get into aparty and the plant's like, okay,
you know, you can bring in nutrients,you could bring in beverages for me, or,

(47:46):
you know, whatever it is. Yeah.
That's how I was taughttoo. Yeah, absolutely.
Right? Like, come on in. Um,
and why would the plantnot want to accept that?
It's almost like an insurancepolicy for the plant,
that it's gonna be getting enoughnutrients and, um, you know,
water and things like this.But now there's some, you know,

(48:07):
research going on to say that there's, um,
it's a lot more complex communicationbetween the fungi and the plant.
Um, but we do know thatroot exudates are released.
I think we're still really tryingto understand root exudates.
I know currently there's about a hundredthousand compounds that have been

(48:27):
identified, um, you know, thatroots are putting out there,
but we know that they play a rolein the germination of spores.
Um, and then for thatultimate connection, right?
Mm-hmm. . So yeah, once the,
once the mycelium approaches the root,

(48:50):
there's a very complexconversation that occurs and then,
um, ultimately they're able topenetrate into, into the root system,
and then they continue to grow.
And it's actually a physicalpenetration. It, it's,
that's not just like symbolic.It actually, you know,
because of the size relationship, uh,

(49:12):
the mycelium strands can actually enter
the root itself, not just the root zone.
Yep. That is correct.
And it was even just today wewere looking for these, uh,
special structures that theymake when they penetrate apo,
and it's a just small pieceof tissue and it anchors

(49:37):
the mycelium to the root.It's a, but yep, it,
it completely penetratesthat and just continues to,
to explore.
You know, this idea of, of, uh, these,
these endo micro iza expendingsome part of their life, um,
inside the plant root. Um,totally reminds me of the,

(49:59):
of the bacterial rise aphagia cyclethat we discussed in detail with, uh,
Jeff Lowenfels back on shapingfire 96. Um, you know, are, are,
are, are, are these two, I don't know,
areas of science relatedin science at all,
or is it just in my head because they'rejust two different things that enter
the plant for part of their life?

(50:21):
You know, I think everything's connectedin, you know, in ways like that.
And I know that there's a lot ofresearch on now what their, uh,
I don't know if this is reallya term that's been coined,
but micro iza helper bacteria. Mm-hmm. Um,
so I think things are definitelyworking synergistically. And, um,

(50:41):
so yeah, I think that that'sa fair comparison. Right on.
So let's talk about oneof the, one of the, the,
the roles that the microISE play, uh, in this,
in this relationshipwith the plant. Um, uh,
the first one that I ever learned about,
and I I'm certainly not suggestingI I know a lot about it, is, is the,
the sugar water for the sugarand water for minerals exchange.

(51:05):
Um, and would you wa walk us throughthat, that like cornerstone process?
Yeah, sure. So that, that reallyis at the heart of this exchange,
at the heart of this symbiosis.
So we talked a little bit inthe earlier segment about, um,
how micro isel fungi,

(51:26):
they are reliant on theplant host for their carbon.
And that's all coming throughphotosynthetic through that photosynthetic
process. And, um, so that's reallywhat the fungus wants from the plant.
Uh, we know that some fungi can exist,some of the micro isel fungi can exist,

(51:47):
um, without the plant host,
but primarily most of thesespecies are dependent on their
carbon acquisition through photos,syn, photosynth, invades, mm-hmm.
. Um, so that'sreally what they're after.
And the plant is willing toengage in this relationship

(52:07):
because they know and, you know,
they somehow know that, uh, thefungi is able to deliver different,
and it's not just the, you know,more minerals or micronutrients,
but even macronutrients, right?Mm-hmm. . So, um, they,
they know that the,
if they allow this relationship to occurthat they're also going to benefit in

(52:30):
this other way, um, that maybethey wouldn't be able to,
to do as well on their own.
I, I guess when somebody shows up withall of these, you know, quality inputs,
you, you're all, you getused to it, right? .
Right? Yeah. And why would you not,why would you say no? It's like mm-hmm.

(52:50):
. Yeah, let's go .
So, um, Ken does,
does micro rza have theability to live in the soil
without a root or somethingof some, a root or other,
uh, in order to do this, uh,symbiotic exchange? Like, you know,
it might not be cannabis, butperhaps it's, you know, you know,

(53:12):
a dandelion or something else.
But can the microrisal fungus
survive without a root?
Um, there are many
species that are obligatemicro isol fungi,
so they have to have a plant hostto carry out their life cycle. Now,

(53:36):
if they didn't have access to a plant,couldn't they go dormant? Certainly.
I see. That's what we have. Um, howlong would that last? I'm not sure.
Um, but yeah, we knowthat there are many fungi,
many Mike Grisel fungi that they justsimply cannot carry out their lifecycle
without their plant host. So they'regonna need that root system. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

(54:00):
.
When while preparing and doing mybackground research for the episode,
it was really interesting toread. Um, all the different,
I'll just throw 'em, I guess,
in a big basket of processesthat Mike Rizal fungi,
um, are able to do. Like,you know, at, at, you know,
that cornerstone sugarwaters for mineral exchange.

(54:24):
I'm kind of like picturing this,this micro rise in the middle,
like, you know, kind at acting like a,like a bartering agent, you know? Mm-hmm.
Going, Hey, you got those there, you gotthose here, I'll give those here. Okay.
All right. Go. You know?Mm-hmm. kinda like, kinda like, you know,
directing traffic almost.Right? Right. And, but then,
but then as you continue to read,it's like, oh, also Mike Rza can,

(54:46):
can do this chemical, uh, transitionand then also if it finds this,
it can do this. And like the,the more I read, I'm like it,
Mike Rza has got this whole toolbox of,
of,
of biological transitionsand trades, I guess,
that it can do to makesure that the signals

(55:11):
and the nutrition and,
and the water and everything is allbeing transferred back and forth.
And I gotta tell you that, that it,
it kind of makes them prettybadass because they're essentially making their own
tools, right? There's all thesedifferent things that they can do.
Would you explain some of theways that micro rza defends

(55:31):
the cannabis plant itself fromlike disease and pathogens
and, and other things thatmight do the plant harm?
Yeah. Yeah. It really is fascinatingwhen you, when you think about 'em,
and it's one reason I just think thekingdom fungi is so incredible and why we
do need more people tostep into the field, right?

(55:52):
And how it also, likewhen you start reading it,
it really does start to read likeit's intelligent, you know? Mm-hmm.
, like, it reallylike, like it's really amazing,
especially when you like see like aTikTok or something that shows fungus,
like beating puzzles and stuff. And it'snot like, damn, you know? So anyway,
uh, plea please. How, how,
how does the mic Eliza actually defendthe cannabis plants from diseases and

(56:14):
pathogens by using thesevarious methods? It has?
Yeah. Yeah, there's a few thingsthat come to mind right away. I mean,
I would say that overall, if youhave a plant that's receiving,
you know, more water, um,
more nutrients than the plant'sable to acquire on its own,
you're the plant health overall isjust going to be better, right? Mm-hmm.

(56:39):
. So you're justgonna have a more robust plant, um,
a plant that's maybe moreresistant to an infection. Um,
things like that.
So that's one thing that just comes tomind right away is that if your plant
overall is more healthy,
then it's going to be able to fight offdifferent things that might come its
way. Um, one thing that is, um,

(57:03):
pretty well researchedis tolerant to not only
things like saline soils, but also, um,
heavy metals. So if for some reason, um,
that is happening for you, um, the fun,
the fungi,
they can actually mitigatehow that is delivered

(57:28):
to the plant and essentiallyhold it within its mycelium.
So I think, so.
Like, so like pockets it awayso that away from the mechanics
of the plant mm-hmm. sothat the plant is shielded from it.
Yeah. Wow. And I think, andit's interesting, I mean,
outside of cannabis growing or,um, you know, things like that,

(57:49):
there's a lot of saline soils and,you know, in our world. So, um,
that's pretty fascinating. Uh,
we've done some experiments where wewe're just straight feeding and plant salt
water mm-hmm. and the, you know,
micro isel colonized plants arejust, they just look so good.
And so we haven't done too muchon the heavy metals, but there's,

(58:12):
there's quite a bit of research on heavymetal uptake and mitigation of those
heavy metals. Um,
so I think that that's really aninteresting aspect and things that they
can do for your plants.
I know that there's other researchon prevention of infection, um,

(58:34):
and I,
I don't know if that's just due to anincrease in overall plant health or if
there's some other mechanism behindthat that we don't fully understand yet.
Right on. So, um, looking at thenext question I have for you,
I have a feeling that this is goingto be, uh, one that you say, ah,
[inaudible] that's for SafraProphetic Fungus, but, uh,

(58:56):
I'm gonna go ahead and ask you anywaybecause I'm super curious of the answer
even if it is Safra prophetic. So, so,so I was gonna ask you that, you know,
cannabis cultivators love ground coverand companion plants for lots of reasons.
One being that, you know,
the plants can all talk to each otherand trade nutrients and, you know,
create pest defense. Andthen I was gonna say,

(59:19):
would you explain how mycelium, you know,
processes a signaling system? But that'sprobably not mycelium in retrospect,
is it?
Um,
I guess I'm having a hardtime understanding on the signaling system between the
plants.
Yeah. I'll give you anexample. Like, like, like we,
we hear about when groups of plants,
even if they're different varietiesare planted together, um, uh, uh,

(59:43):
you know, that an aphidswill attack one, uh,
the plants will signal to the other localplants that it's getting chomped on by
aphids.
So the individual plants can use whateverits strategy is to not get aphids.
Oh, sure, sure. Um, yeah, Idon't really know about that.
I wouldn't necessarily give all thisa prophetic fungi credit for that, uh,

(01:00:06):
right.
On. But it definitely tellsme that like, you know,
since you study Mike Rza and you don'tknow this particular thing, that,
that I definitely have put thisactivity in the wrong bucket.
Well, I know that there is somesignaling of infection from
tree to tree that are colonized,you know, by fungi into, you know,
increased defenses ortransfer nutrients over here.

(01:00:28):
Cuz now this plant is infected.
So I know that there'scommunication in that way. Um,
so I wouldn't put it past that. I justdon't know if I could speak to that.
Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.Um, so, um, let's see here.
So the, the more we talk today,
the more I get this sensethat mycelium is more about

(01:00:51):
transport and, and breakingdown nutrition and,
and moving it on a highwaytowards the root zone. Um,
but when the nutrition, but, but whenthe nutrition gets to the root zone,
the, the mic rza, um,
Symbiosis, um,

(01:01:12):
with the plant kind of takes over and,
and does the actual bartertransmutation or process of, of,
of bringing that nutrition intothe plant through this mutualistic
relationship. Um,
and then the plant is then, you know,
sending the nutrients that it'ssharing back down to the micro rise

(01:01:37):
to the micro rise activity
mycelium, and then thatgoes back down the line.
What I would like to know is there,
is there anythingphysiologically different at that
connection point between the mycelium

(01:01:58):
and the plant root? Um,where where we would say,
oh, uh, that is micro,that's microrisal fungus,
you can tell by looking at it versusdoes it just look like regular
mycelium that's just doinga different activity?
Um, so when you're looking atthe mycelium itself Yeah, yeah.

(01:02:23):
You know, I don't think I couldreally tell a difference. Um.
That's really, that's really interestingbecause the way that all of us, I mean,
and, and we, cannabis people, we talkabout a lot of stuff wrong. Right. Um,
but, but it, it, we alwaystalk, we talk about, you know,
microrisal fungi as if itis like, like, you know,
an a an absolutely different type of typeof fungus. And, and the more we talk,

(01:02:46):
the more that I realize that thatkind of as a, as a, as an industry,
we talk about it wrong.
Hmm. Now I will say with,um, like ectomic, IAL fungi,
we talked a little bit about thismantle of mycelium that covers the root
system. Mm-hmm. ,
you can certainly find rootslike that and you can know for

(01:03:07):
sure like this is mycelium that is from,
this is an ectomic ial fungi,right? Mm-hmm. ,
it's very obvious where theendo microrisal fungi or amf,
that's a little bit more tricky becausethey don't make this like mantle.
It's like this mat ofmycelium over the root system.

(01:03:29):
Um, so there is that, you know, I justlike kind of had that thought in there,
but mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean,
if you saw this mat of mycelium nextto your plant and next to the plant
roots, and that would be hardfor me to know unless I went,
I collected some roots and then I wentthrough the process of clearing the

(01:03:49):
pigmentation, staining it, right.
And then visualizing it under the scope.
Right on. Well, oh, go ahead. I didn'tmean, I thought thought you were done.
Go ahead.
No, pretty much there was just, youknow, to make sure that this is,
this was,
this was the micro isel fungithat was responsible for all that

(01:04:10):
other mycelium I saw, butto distinguish it, yeah.
I think would be kindof challenging. Right.
On. Thank you. All right. So, um,
so to to to to end this second set, um,
I just wanna ask you one, uh,
ectomic question because when Iread this preparing for the show,
it caught me way off guard.
And I would like to learn moreabout this if you know about it.

(01:04:32):
I read that Ectomic havebeen known to lure spring
tales to obtain nitrogen from them.
How the heck does that happen, ?
I don't know. I don'tknow anything about that,
but I'm certainly gonnalook into that after this.
Have you ever heard, outside of thisparticular example, have you ever, um,

(01:04:55):
uh, you know, come across examplesof, of Mike Rae, you know,
acting like they are, are, are, aretrapping anything like that? I mean, when,
when we learned how like, you know,you know, aphids farm and things like,
or No, no, it's the, the ants farm,the, the aphid larva. Like that's,
that's some really interesting stuff tohappen at that, that level of biology.

(01:05:16):
Right? And so, so haveyou heard, you know,
of any other examples of MikeRaza doing that sort of thing?
You know, it makes me think of likecortis and how that can drive, um,
certain insects, like it can takeover the neurological system,
drive them to the top of the canopy, um,
eventually consume them completely. Uh,

(01:05:38):
I haven't ever heard thatwith the EC echos, uh,
but I do know that ETOs have a lotmore claims, um, to prevent, like,
let's say insect or bry. I don't knowif that's just because that mantle is,
you know, covering the root system.
So it's like this physical shieldof defense for the plant. Mm-hmm.

(01:05:59):
. Um,
but just knowing that thereare other mechanisms like the
cor deceptions, you know, I'm kind of aromantic when it comes to fungi, though.
I'm like, they can doanything. Right. So I'm,
I'm definitely curious about,about what you read there,
and now I wanna look into that, butit's not something I'm really aware of.

(01:06:20):
Right on. Well, I got, I got it, uh, uh,
just from a article I foundthrough Wikipedia. So it it's there if you want it,
you know, it, and it's reallyinteresting too, to, uh,
to look at all the different tools thatthe Micro rza has. You know, it's got,
it's got different processes. It's got,
it's got barters that it can be in themiddle of to get what it needs to get
done. Um, you know, it's got, it'sgot, you know, like, like the, the,

(01:06:42):
the soil version of like the, youknow, chemical signals and, and what,
you know, and smells, I think of terpenes.They may or may not be root terpenes,
but, but the idea of like all these,all these different tools, it's got, I,
I imagine like, oh yeah,the ectomic is, you know,
excreting some chemicalthat, that spring tails love.
And then when it gets close enough, Iimagine like, how the hell does a, how,

(01:07:05):
how, how does fungus move fast enoughto catch a spring tail? Right. You know?
Right. But again, you alreadysaid you don't know, so it's,
it's hard to not wonderthough, you know? Well.
It, it kind of just reminds me of, um,
enzymes that are released, right? They're,
they are these types of like digestiveenzymes, you can think of 'em like that,

(01:07:25):
um, to break down the, you know,
non biologically available nutrients.Mm-hmm. . So, but yeah,
when you think about how slow the fungimove, , which is, you know,
one reason that I like 'em, they justlike, stay put. Right. But, um, but yeah,
that's, it's a good question.And yeah, we'll have to, we'll,

(01:07:46):
we'll have to try to get somebodythat's listening in to, uh,
enlist in a PhD project on this.
Right on. Excellent. All right. Solet's go ahead and take our second, uh,
commercial break. We will be rightback. You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and my guest today is mycollege Stephanie Garcia.
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Welcome back. You are listening toShaping Fire. I am your host Shose,
and my guest today isMycologist Stephanie Garcia.

(01:14:25):
So here we are in the third set. Duringthe first set, we, we talked about, uh,
mycelium networks and, and the rolesthey do and don't play in the soil.
And then we talked about microsymbiosis between the mycelium and
the plant, and all the myriadtools that, um, micro iza,
um, have got in the toolbox to be able to,

(01:14:47):
to do all the various processesthat they're responsible for. Well,
here in set three,
we're gonna talk about supportingmycelium and the micro iza symbiosis,
um, in your garden. So we're,
we're gonna talk about somebest practices and some,
maybe some less than best practices.So, so Stephanie, you know,
today we've been mostly talking aboutliving soil because that's mostly what

(01:15:10):
shaping fire, you know,talks about as a show.
But lots of cannabis growersuse soilless mediums like,
like Cocoa Quar and Pete or Rockwell. Um,
do mycelium networks grow in theseother non-living soil mediums?
Yeah. Yeah, they certainly can.
Um, is it the, so, alright,

(01:15:34):
so you say they can, so, so do they,
because you don't have as complexof a biological environment
in some of these soilless mediumsas you would have in living
soil. Um,
do they present themselves differentlyor are there only particular strains of
mycelium that can take to thatenvironment? Um, uh, maybe I'm wrong,

(01:15:57):
but it just seems to methat like with, with, um,
so much less of the biology thathappens in living soil that's not in
cocoa, Pete and Rockwell, thatthere would be some kind of, um,
differences between how, um, myceliumand micro iza present themselves.
But, but perhaps it's not.
Yeah. You know, I thinkone thing we've done,

(01:16:19):
we've done a few hydroponicstudies, um, not with cannabis,
but I know that there have also beensome hydroponic studies in cannabis with,
um, with micro isel fungi. And, um,
I know that they're,
they're able to establish inthat type of system and maybe,
um, you know, maybe they're notas reliant on the nutrients,

(01:16:44):
uh, because they're really communicatingwith the plant root system. Mm-hmm.
. Um, I know in these studiesthat I've read about with cannabis,
that they, um,
they've shown to increaseplant vigor. And so,
um, yeah, I would think that theywould act somewhat different.
But as far as thebenefit to the plant, um,

(01:17:05):
these studies suggestedthat they were, you know,
they were still able toperform mm-hmm. .
Mm-hmm. . So I wannaask about, uh, water and, uh,
mycelium networks again, but not likewhat we talked about, uh, water earlier,
about, about how mycelium helpscreate good soil structure,
which allows the water to get throughit. And, and how by it retaining water,

(01:17:25):
it helps the plant, you know,um, you know, not, not, uh,
dry out in drought conditions. Itdoes all these really good, um,
water retention aspects. Iwanna talk more about, uh, uh,
we as cultivators watering theplant. Um, I can imagine that,
um, you know, like anything,
even water that is helpful can becomedangerous if it's given too much of it.

(01:17:49):
And I imagine that ifwe, you know, over water,
it'll cause the mi mycelium networksto rot. And then if we underwater,
um, you know, maybe they'll, they'll,you know, dry out and cyst up.
So now they're not workingeither. And so as cultivators,
we kind of want to get this sweet spotsomewhere in the middle where we're
providing enough waterfor everything to thrive,

(01:18:11):
but not enough to throw themycelium network out of balance.
So do you have any advicearound that for us?
Yeah, sure. So I think onething to consider is the,
the micro isel fungi, they're,they're actually really good at, um,
helping the plants resist drought, right?
So there's a lot of mechanisms theyhave where the micro isly helps

(01:18:36):
store the water, um, theycan also explore for it.
So it's not, I think,
as big of an issue for them tobe a little bit under watered
mm-hmm. , right?Um, they seem to perform,
the plants seem to perform reallywell with the reduction in water. Um,
I know there's been a lot of researchand we've done a little research, um,

(01:19:00):
with the group I'm with,um, on watering amount.
And some people would suggest you don'thave to water as much if you, you know,
have this microrisalassociation going. Um,
not really sure how people would feelabout that reducing their watering
and everything like that. But, um,

(01:19:20):
I think that if they havethese root system systems
established, then, um,
they're just really wellequipped to face that, um,
you know,
the stresses of drought and they canbounce back even if water becomes less and
less available.
I think that's a really goodexample of, of why, um, mature,

(01:19:44):
uh, soil environments like whether it'sa, in a, in a pot or a bed or, or, uh,
like a raised bed or somethingthat, that mature soils with,
with lots of fungalnetworks that are mature
are just really going to give you a lotmore of a buffer as a cultivator. Um,
because, um, it,

(01:20:07):
it's more flexible than apot that we, that we, we,
we just mixed some soiland threw it in and,
and put our clone in there and,
and now that pot is going to be, uh,
have much fewer defenses than amature pot that's packed with mycelium
networks.
Mm-hmm. .Yeah. Yeah. And you know,

(01:20:29):
even thinking about this overwatering,
just like we talked aboutsome of the, um, you know,
saline soil and theheavy metal or, you know,
heavy metal uptake mitigation,
the mycelium can also help withuptake, mitigation of water.
So say you're over watering, um,
I think mycelium is really good atholding that and just helping to deliver

(01:20:54):
this like, really nice amountof water to the plant. Um,
now I'm not saying you can over water,
but mycelium is just gonnatake care of it. You know,
we have to be conscientiousof that as well.
But your bandwidth of success isgoing to be wider with more mycelium.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, uh, two more, or or another questionabout water quality. Um, does, does,

(01:21:19):
um,
does the pH water or how much mineralcontent it has on it have any impact
on the mycelium networks?
Yeah, I mean, theydon't, you know, they're,
they're similar to otherthings that we grow where they,
they kind of want that neutral pH,right? Mm-hmm. . Um,
we do see responses if they have areally low pH or really high pH that

(01:21:40):
they don't colonize and theydon't perform very well.
I've had this idea, which, um, is notscientific just based on observation,
um, that, uh, I, I wonder whetheror not high mineral water,
um,
would be more difficult for myceliumto transport because of its high

(01:22:01):
mineral nature. I think of it aslike chunky water mm-hmm.
and, and perhapsthe mycelium either needs to a,
separate out the, the,
the minerals that are in the wateror b just refuses to use it. Um,
do you have anything to offer onthis, on this idea of mineral water?
Yeah,
the only thing I would imagineis if I was the fungal hyphy

(01:22:24):
or the, you know,
if I was the mycelium in there and thewater was too chunky for me to deal with,
I would probably try to secrete someenzymes to break it down. Oh yeah.
To make it easier to transport. Um, yeah,
it's an interesting theorymm-hmm. .
So after we break up this soil,say for example, uh, you know,
we tend to, um, encourage, um, youknow, no-till as a general idea.

(01:22:48):
But, you know,
sometimes we're in positions where wejust wanna refresh a pot and we wanna,
we wanna pop out the soil and we wannabreak it up and maybe we amend it and
then, and then maybe, maybe we'reputting it in a new pot cuz our,
our pots are getting old andjanky mm-hmm. .
And so the soil is aged soil and it, and,
and until we broke it up,

(01:23:10):
it had a pretty complexmycelium network. Um,
but then we broke it up. And sonow we've got all these, um, uh,
propag strands, right?Mm-hmm. ,
and you were telling us earlier howany one of those strands can, you know,
start a new, um, a new network.
How long would you suggest thatit's going to take from the,

(01:23:32):
the day that I pop out the soil andbreak it up and amend it and put it back
into a pot until those, um,
uh, pieces of mycelium, you know,find each other and get themselves,
uh, rea associated and then arefunctioning and doing their job again?

(01:23:53):
So, and is in this scenario where, um,
thinking of you've replanted aplant, there's a plant in there.
Yeah. There, they'll, they'll there'sa cannabis start in there, is the idea.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. So this is a,
this is a great question. Um, Iknow that if we're growing these,
um, fungi in vitro culture, soif we're in the lab doing this,

(01:24:16):
this can take a couple weeks, two tothree weeks before the plant or Yeah.
Before the plant and the fungi cometogether and create that symbiosis.
Um, in this one study I'm thinking about,
and it was with cannabis,it, it was about,
it was suggested thatit's about six weeks,

(01:24:36):
but that there were thesebenefits that were noticed even
ahead of that time, right?So when we run our bioassays,
we usually let it goeight weeks. And that,
that's the timeline that we've stuckwith to see this was a really good
colonized root system,right? So, you know,

(01:24:58):
we know that in those lab conditions,everything is like perfect. You know,
we have this spore right nextto this root organ culture and
it's connecting, like we're putting itright in this like perfect condition,
right? And we can see thatin a couple weeks. Um,
we run those bioassays for eight weeks.
We've have a study herethat says six weeks. So, um,

(01:25:19):
it's a little more challenging if youhave something that doesn't go very long.
Like some of our hydroponic studies, forexample, we we're looking at lettuce.
Well, after a month of growing lettucehydroponically, it's time to harvest it,
right? Mm-hmm. .
So it was really hard forus to find really good colonization throughout and all
of the, like this huge rootbiomass that it produced.

(01:25:43):
So yeah,
I think we generally tell peopleto that you wouldn't see any
type of effects for, you know, three orfour weeks mm-hmm. . Um,
so that's.
So that's exactly what Iwas going for. Yeah. And,
and the follow up is I really thinkthat this makes a case that if we are
gonna do any kind of that rejuvenationof pots where we're gonna be breaking up

(01:26:08):
mature pots, mending 'em,maybe recoiling some,
and then putting 'em back in that, um,
we really want to do thateither much earlier in the
spring or even the priorfall. And in, in either case,
either add like a, a small covercrop, a love of small plants or,

(01:26:28):
or maybe like a or maybe like comfy orsomething to be a placeholder for our
cannabis plant so that bythe time, um, you know,
end of may comes and we want to start, uh,
planting our cannabisstarts into the soil.
That that work of reconnectingall of the meial strands,

(01:26:49):
um, has already been done because as,as you and I are, are discussing it,
you know, a lot of people will,will, you know, break up the pots,
do the amendment, fillup the pots, and then,
and then put their cannabis plants inthere within a week mm-hmm. .
And that tells me that throughat least, um, you know,
most of their veg period,

(01:27:11):
that plant is living in a suboptimum living environment because
the mycelium networksare broken at that point.
Yeah, absolutely. And when you think aboutsome of these, like, you know, we're,
we're more in this like agricultural,
I mean more in thisagricultural type industry.
And when we talk about regenerativeag mm-hmm. , I mean,

(01:27:33):
that's the thing, you know, you'retrying for minimal disturbance, right?
No till or strip tillage. But if youcan't do that, okay, you can't do that.
Right. But like what you're sayingmakes so much sense because you can,
you know, do your amendments,do whatever, you know, you're,
you're thinking you really need to doto the soil and then plant that cover

(01:27:54):
crop, let it sit there. I mean,
having living roots evenwith your crop, right?
Relieving this type of compactionand things like that, um,
it makes sense. It's same thing withlike, um, crop diversity, right? Mm-hmm.
or like a rotation, right?You kind of want to get away from that.
I've always planted thisone plant and this soil, um,

(01:28:18):
it takes the nutrients different right?
And then try to replenish it with likea type of cover crop. Um, you know,
one thing I was thinking whenyou were saying this was,
and asking these questions and somethingthat just kind of came to mind is it's
really interesting that we will,

(01:28:38):
we'll let these bioassaysgo for eight weeks, right?
But there's been so manyexperiences I've had where
I inoculate in transplantand I've seen a clear
impact of a reduction of transplant shock.

(01:28:58):
So it's, I'm not really sureexactly what that's due to.
Is this some type of carrier effect? Um,
does somehow the plant know this fungusis there and they're releasing some
other types of root exudates?
But that's something that I've witnessedquite a bit and applying microrisal

(01:29:19):
fungi and this inoculum isyou see this transplant, um,
shock like resistancemm-hmm. .
And that's just somethinginteresting to me.
Cuz if we don't see that symbiosisoccurring for however long it might
not occur for, but then we're stillseeing some type of positive impact.
It just makes me wonder what else is goingon. Yeah. You know, below the ground.

(01:29:43):
For sure. It does for sure. Again, more,
more room for research forthe people coming up .
Absolutely.
Um, are there specific soil amendmentsthat either help or hinder, um,
mycelium and the microsymbiosis? Um, you know,
the main answer may just be,
well keep your soil generallybalanced and healthy and,
and that that's reasonable. But,

(01:30:04):
but there also could be like someamendment that you're like, oh,
this is a key buildingblock, um, you know,
for mycelium networks and,
and you should make sure thatyou add this or something.
Yeah, that's a greatquestion. I know that, um,
we've read some literature about biocharmm-hmm. being helpful,
um, and, you know,increasing colonization.

(01:30:27):
Um,
I know that we really avoidhaving anything really high and
phosphorous. So highphosphorus contents can really,
um, reduce the level of colonization.
So I'd just say to consider, definitelyconsider the phosphorus content.
It's interesting cuz Mike Griselfungi are so wonderful at acquiring

(01:30:51):
phosphorus that's like their flagshipnutrient. But if you plant it in,
if you plant this plant in thisreally phosphorous rich environment,
the micro isel fungi doesn't establishmaybe because it thinks why do I need to
be here?
Yeah. My job would be redundant.
Right? So there's a lotof research on, um, on,

(01:31:13):
on phosphorus levels and, um,
even fertilizing with a lower p so when,
when that's becoming established. Right.
Right. On. Um, and I, and I've got a,
a fertilizer question to followup that with, um, you know,
while we focus mostly on natural farmingtechniques on shaping fire, many folks,
uh, choose the ease of using, you know,

(01:31:34):
salt based fertilizers and a plusB kind of stuff for indoors mm-hmm.
, how do these sort oflike sodium fertilizers impact, um,
mycelium and the microiza symbiosis in any way?
Well, we, um, you know, Ican't, I don't know really,
but I know that we had to use some ofthat material in our hydroponic study and

(01:31:57):
the lettuce, that studywasn't as successful, but, um,
we also worked with Basal and itseemed to still, you know, it's still,
it was still able to work with it. Wejust made sure that the PE was low.
Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . Um, cuz that's really important.
So, so to, um, kind of wrapthis up a little bit, um,

(01:32:17):
you know, th this, the moreI prepared for this show,
the more complex I realized thatmy mycelium networks and micro iza
symbiosis is right. I'm like,I was like, you know, you know,
a couple days into,
into building my question path forthis episode and I'm like, holy crap,
this is like two episodes. Like,and, and a college course, right?

(01:32:39):
Like,
there's so much here and you of courseis somebody who's dedicated themselves to
studying fungus knows this. So, so,um, as kind of a wrap up, there are,
there are certainly things that,
that I didn't ask you becauseI didn't know to ask you
because I don't have the, the,the depth that you have got and,
and if our goal with thisshow was to, you know,

(01:33:04):
have cannabis cultivatorsbe more aware of, uh,
mycelium networks toconsider them more, um, and,
and how to support them whenthey are growing either in
beds or in containers. And then, and then,
and then understand the micro izasymbiosis and, and the importance of it.

(01:33:25):
So, so we continually, um, you know,
respect the role that, that, uh, theliving soul is playing, soil is playing.
Um, what would you, uh,
say is that something that I mayhave missed that would be helpful
to cultivators in, inmaking sure they've got, uh,

(01:33:46):
healthy and functioning my cial networks?
Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I thinkyou asked some amazing questions.
I think that you covered, um,things really well. Esp I mean,
everything from the mycelium todescribing micro isel, fungi, their role,
everything like that. I thinkone thing that we didn't, um,

(01:34:06):
necessarily touch on was just, um,
micro isel products. And not to put any,
not gonna put any type of plugs inthere for any particular product,
but what I would tell peopleto be aware of is label claims.
Mm-hmm. ,right? So if you're,
if you wanna incorporate Isel fungi, um,

(01:34:28):
by going out and buying aproduct, look at the claim.
Don't just look at thissoil contains micro I,
because one thing I've really noticed, um,
through my time with,
with the company I'm working with nowis there's a lot of products out there
that will claim we have micro I,right? Mm-hmm. . Um,

(01:34:51):
but when you look at their claim,it's extremely low. And so,
you know, if you're having a fraction of, you know,
a fraction of a propag for,you know, a cubic inch of soil,
like that's really not gonna do youany good, right? So just be aware,

(01:35:11):
um, that there are a lot of productsout there that might have a really,
really low claim.
And so you may think you'reintroducing micro isel fungi through
soils or different inoculums, butjust try to educate yourself on,
on the levels. And if you see somethingcoming in at a fraction of a propag,

(01:35:32):
it's probably not deliveringwhat you're hoping it will.
Right On. That is really insightful.I'm glad that you added that. And,
you know, this is, um,
this is also something that we talkabout when we're talking about microbe
communities, right? Because there's,there's all these, like, you know,
new to the market, you know,
microbe community infusion products,right? Mm-hmm. and,

(01:35:57):
and, and, and people justbuy them and because they,
they like the marketing of it.But then, you know, you, you know,
if somebody with, with a, with a biobiology background looks at the label,
they're all like, you know, whatis this? You know, it is something,
you know mm-hmm. and,and, and I think it's, it's all,
it's good for all of us to be asavvy and a bit skeptical, uh,

(01:36:18):
consumers when it comes to, um,you know, science that we may not,
may not be entirely familiar with.
Yeah. I mean, really with all of ourproducts, right? But Right. But, and,
you know, even questioning, evenseeing claims that you think are,
okay, cool, this seems likea decent enough, um, level.

(01:36:38):
Um,
I'm more of a fan of over inoculatingas long as the carrier isn't gonna cause
any type of phytotoxicity mm-hmm., um, you know,
sometimes companies will say, you know,
apply this much and this is what's best,you know, on the business aspect. But,
um, I'm,

(01:36:59):
I'm a bit more of a fan ofgiving it a little extra ,
let's just put it that way, .
Right on. Right on. So another exanother good point to know your carrier,
know what your filler products are inwhatever products you're using, right?
Yeah. So, so Stephanie,thank you so much for, uh,
spending your time with us today and, and,
and sharing your insight intoMycelium networks and the micro rase

(01:37:21):
symbiosis. Um, uh, I knowthat I learned a lot,
especially about the Mike Risessymbiosis, like when, when,
when, you know, I really got towrapping my head around that,
that it is a process morethan a thing. Um, I mean,
clearly it broke my brain there andset one, but, but, um, you know,

(01:37:42):
throughout the rest of the show, I, I,
I've realized that the impacts that thathas as far as how I've been taking care
of my own, um, uh, growingcontainers. So, so, so thank you for,
um, you know, sharing your insight and,and your time and your good cheer, uh,
with everybody here on Shaping Fire.
Oh, you're so welcome. It'sreally been a pleasure.

(01:38:02):
Awesome. So, uh, if you would like to, uh,
get in contact with Stephanie Garcia, um,
you can do so through LinkedIn. Um,unlike some of our other guests,
she's not super, uh, active on, on,you know, the Twitter, Instagram, uh,
that we normally give you. And that'sbecause she's in the lab, uh, where,
where, where she's doingthe great work. So, uh, but,

(01:38:23):
but if there's some reason thatyou wanna reach out to her, um, uh,
you can reach her on LinkedIn and,uh, that's, uh, Stephanie with, uh,
pH n not an F.
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