EP106 Cannabis Root Structure Mechanics and Best Practices with guest Sarah Lane

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
I listened to a lot of Roots Reggaewhen I was in my early twenties.
Being a stoner in school generally meantthat there was a lot of reggae around.
But in my early twenties, I discoveredthe Ban Israel vibration specifically,
and everything changed. There are manyother bands in the roots reggae genre,
but for me,
Israel Vibes is the quintessentialroots band for me anyway.

(00:28):
Israel Vibration embodies the essence ofroots reggae through their messages of
spirituality, social consciousness, andliberation. Their use of rich melodies,
uplifting chord progressions,
and melodic horn arrangements furthercontribute to their quintessential roots
reggae sound. They addressthemes such as African identity,
Babylonian system criticism,the struggle of the oppressed,

(00:51):
and the importance offaith and perseverance.
Israel vibration's lyrics resonatewith the poetic nature of roots reggae
encapsulating the struggles and hopesof the Jamaican people. Shirley,
I listened to lots of thepopular reggae at the time,
and these themes imbue most reggae.
But I didn't understand the authenticroots and meaning of reggae in my soul

(01:12):
until I listened to IsraelVibrations. Similarly,
we can talk about theimportance of cannabis roots,
a thriving rhizosphere and root zone,
and the love of a thickmass of healthy plant roots.
But only when we really lean intoroots culture cannabis roots science
will we have both the heart and theknowledge to grow our best cannabis plants

(01:37):
ever.
If you wanna learn about cannabis healthcultivation and technique efficiently
and with good cheer, I encourageyou to subscribe to our newsletter.
We'll send you new podcastepisodes as they come out,
delivered right to your inbox,
along with commentary on a couple of themost important news items from the week
and videos too.
Don't rely on social media to let youknow when a new episode is published.

(01:59):
Sign up for the updates to make sureyou don't miss an episode. Also,
we're giving away very cool prices offolks who are signed up to receive the
newsletter.
There's nothing else you need to doto win except receive that newsletter.
So go to shaping fire.com to sign up forthe newsletter this week and be entered
into this month's and all futurenewsletter prize drawings.
You are listening to Shaping Fire,and I'm your host, Chango Los.

(02:23):
My guest today is Plantbiologist Sarah Lane.
Sarah Lane is wrapping up her PhD in Plantand cellular biology at University of
Victoria.
Her work primarily focuses on rootexudates that are involved in iron uptaken
plants and their potentialmedical benefits.
Sarah consults for licensedcannabis cultivators in Canada and is an avid living

(02:45):
soil, cannabis home grower. Dueto her university research needs,
she's also very experiencedin fogs and hydroponics.
Sarah has a wicked large plant collectionand is currently designing a specialty
terrarium for growing cloud orchids.
Sarah Lane appeared on shapingFire 99, just a few episodes back,

(03:05):
talking about the symbiotic relationshipbetween roots and other residents in
the root zone via exudatesduring the first set. Today,
we will look at how roots and root hairsare created, how they absorb nutrients,
the exudate relationship,and how different fertilizers impact the root zone.
The second set is devotedto root structure.

(03:27):
We will look at the variousforms of root structure in soil,
cocoa and hydroponic systems,and why they work and don't work.
We will look at the relationship betweenroot structure and the soil food web,
and we will discuss how various growingcontainers impact root structure and
what that means foryour plant. And finally,
we will finish off with a discussion ofbest practices for growing a healthy and

(03:51):
thriving root structure, includingwater, pH, soil amendments,
and cover crops. Welcomeback to Shaping Fire, Sarah.
Thanks for having me.I'm happy to be back.
So glad to have you. You know, I don'tusually ask guests back right away,
but our discussion of rootexudates during episode 99 just
brought up so many rootrelated questions for myself,

(04:14):
and then in the comments online that Ijust knew that it was probably better to
just invite you back right away and pushforward into our discussion of roots
and root structure. So, so thanks formaking the time to come back right away.
I'm so excited. So.
Let's, let's dive right into it.
And we're gonna start out with somebasics because it's become pretty obvious,
um, over the years of taken, um,questions from audience members and,

(04:38):
and you know, the, the peoplewho I talk with at conventions,
that there's a lot of us in cannabiscultivation that kind of take roots for
granted. And so we're gonna start withsome basics of what are roots and,
and how they form. So, so let'sstart with the ultra basic.
What are roots made of and howare they formed by the plant?
Oh, goodness. Um,

(04:59):
so roots are basically an organof the plant that are made up of a
couple of different types of tissue.
There's a vascular tissue tohelp transport water up into the,
and nutrients up intothe rest of the plant.
It's surrounded by some other tissuesthat can kind of respond to the
environment.
There's an epidermis layer that kind ofacts like a skin around the whole thing

(05:20):
to prevent like microbes and thingslike that from getting in. Um,
and the purpose of aroot is basically to, uh,
provide anchorage so that the plant staysput and can survive wind and all that
kind of stuff. But it's also for, um,for getting nutrients into the plant.
Mm-hmm. . Um,
my understanding is that there aredifferent types of roots. Um, I,

(05:42):
you know, there's, there'slike the primary roots,
the big chunky parts thatwe can see, but then they,
they seem to have like smaller and smallerbranching roots all the way down to
the roots root hairs. How, how manydifferent flavors of roots are there?
Oh, so many, so many flavors. Um, italso depends on the type of species.
So very broadly the type of rootsystem that you can have, um,

(06:03):
depends on what species you are and likefor, I think for most and angio sperm.
So those are the flowering plants. Um,
they get split up into like roots thatcan form from a tap root and then roots
that are fibrous.
And a tap root basically just means thatthe plant will make one big long route
that goes down and lots of, lotsof roots will come off of that.
A fibrous root system is kind of like,it's closer to the stem and it's, it's,

(06:24):
they're not as long, they'rekind of just lots and lots,
but there's also many other plants thatdon't even have a true root system that
have like, kind of root-like structures.
And then when we get into just like aregular root ball that we're familiar
with, so like a house plant root ball,for example, there's the primary root,
but these can get split up intoother like branching lateral roots

(06:45):
that kind of move away from theroot into other parts of the soil.
And then from there you can have, um,
I guess root hairs wouldbe the next option.
That's just like a single celledlittle root hair that sits at just a
very short amount of distancefrom the root itself.
And that helps kind of pull upsome more nutrients in the area.
So let's talk about thattap root for a moment. Um,

(07:07):
since we are talking about the rootspecifically for our favorite cannabis
plant, um, you know, it's,it comes up all the time.
People will say this just kind of offthe cuff. They will say, um, you know,
they prefer to grow from seedbecause they want to grow
a plant with a tap root. Becausewhen we clone cannabis plants,

(07:30):
the clones, when we plantthem, don't have tap roots. Um,
uh, is there a particular reasonwhy clones don't have tap roots?
And, um,
what is the function of thetap root in a seed plant that
we are missing out onwhen we grow a clone?

(07:51):
Ooh, that's a reallyinteresting question. So,
I guess when we talk about the typesof root systems that a plant can have,
we are usually referring to like adevelopmental thing. So the plant,
when it's in a seed, is programmedto have a tap root, root system.
When we clone,
we're actually taking advantage ofalmost a wound healing response instead.

(08:12):
So the plant has the ability to makecells that wouldn't normally be roots,
turn into roots to help it survive,
but that isn't necessarily how itwas developmentally designed to do.
So when we go to the tap root,when you grow from a seed,
that tap root goes as far downas possible to get as deep as
possible into the earth.
And advantage to like having a verylong tap root is that if you can go like

(08:36):
meters and meters down into the soil andthen produce lateral roots from there,
then you can access so much more of the,
of the ground to get your nutrients from.
And if you have like a really shorttap root, then you're probably like,
if you can only go four inches down,
you're only able to accessthat much of the soil.
And so when you grow from a clone,

(08:57):
I don't think it truly matters in thelong run because we're usually growing in
pots mm-hmm. and pots.Like even if you have a tap root system,
you can only get to the bottom of the potand then you're gonna be branching out
from there. Um, but from a clonesperspective, like you wouldn't have,
if you were growing out inlike, I don't know, a field,
you wouldn't have access tothat same depth of nutrients.

(09:18):
It would be harder for you to get to.
That makes sense. I've, I'm gonna pushon this one more ti one more question.
Um, I, I, I, I love the perspectivethat you shared about how, um,
a clone rooting itself is kind of, uh,
like a recovery or a first aid eventbecause it's been damaged and it's
repurposing other ,dare I say, stem cells, um, to,

(09:41):
but no, no different, differentcells in the plant to create this,
this root environment. Um,
does the plant get stabilizedand kind of shake off that,
um,
that that damaged firstage, first aid kind of,
um, living bias and likebecome a, a thriving plant?

(10:05):
Or will a clone forever, um,
be hobbled by the factthat it wasn't from seed?
Oh, I, I love both. There's twothings I want to talk about now.
So absolutely, plants canrecover, um, quite well.
And if you think about it, they haveto, they don't have feet like we do.
They can't just like wander over.So a lot of their like responses,

(10:26):
they're constantly adaptingto a new environment.
And if it was one damagelater, one damage event,
like say they got flooded orsomething and then they can't recover,
they wouldn't survive very well.
So like any wound or anythinglike that that you can do,
usually as long as you treat itproperly and it comes back to a healthy
environment, you should be totally ableto recover. Which is often why many,

(10:46):
many different types of plantsare vegetatively, propagated,
including like potatoes andall sorts of other plants. Um,
but the idea of a stem cell plants doactually have the ability for so many
of their cells to becomestem cells. Oh, unlike us,
where we just have this little tinyamount of stem cells when we're born and
there's a couple of pockets of it, us ofstem cells in our body that can react,

(11:08):
um, in certain ways, plants,
almost any cell can become a stemcell that will then be able to be
any other part of the plant. That's whytissue culture works so brilliantly.
Right on. I'm glad that I stumbledinto that. Brilliant. I didn't,
I didn't realize that was the case.I was trying to make a pun. So good.
Thank you, .
No, it's perfect. This is a stem cell,but it's also a stem cell . Right.

(11:29):
On, right on . So, um, solet's talk a little bit about,
um, the, the roots job of bringingin, uh, nutrients. So, uh,
one of the things that we talked aboutin the exit eight show that I found so
interesting is all of thedifferent ways that roots, um,
mechanize bringing in nutritionin different ways. And, you know,

(11:52):
on shaping fire we tend tofocus on living soil solutions.
But we'll definitely be covering, youknow, all other types of substrate today,
especially since we're talkingabout roots. But for this question,
what are the forms of variousnutrients that roots can't absorb,
assuming that they are thri inthriving living soil environment?
Cuz I'm assuming that they're gonna,they're gonna absorb like, you know, uh,

(12:15):
like minerals in one certain wayand maybe fungus in a different way.
And you get what I think youunderstand what I'm asking? Mm-hmm.
. Okay. So if I understandwhat you're asking correctly, um,
how do roots take on differenttypes of nutrients in the soil? Yes.
Is that right? Mm-hmm.. So there,
there's a bunch of differentthings when we're talking about,

(12:36):
I guess all nutrients at the endof the day can be broken down into
nitrogen or phosphorous scs orlike, like basically a salt.
And that happens either because the plantis able to provide some sort of, um,
chemical or enzymatic process that canbreak something down right next to it.
Or because some bacteria or fungus nextto it was able to do the same thing and

(12:58):
they could take it up that way.
There is some evidence that plants cantake up nutrients as slightly larger
molecules, but I think thisis very species dependent.
I don't think all plants can do this. Um,
or at least I'm notfamiliar with en enough, uh,
papers that have shown this tobe kind of a universal thing.
And then when it comes to like bacteriaor mice or those kind of things,

(13:21):
it's, it's more of a, aconversation between the,
the organism and the plant.
And that involves some chemical signalingand some invitations are sent and then
the plant is able to repurpose thestructure of the root to house it.
So it's not necessarily that it's actuallygetting into the cell more like it's
getting, uh, a special place in the rootto grow. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

(13:43):
, um, your answer,uh, is, is seems to suggest that,
you know, another good reason thatif we're gonna be growing in soil,
it really behooves us to tryto make a thriving and varied,
um, you know, living root zone.
Because if the roots themselvesare not necessarily breaking these

(14:04):
different, uh,
nutritions down and it's their partnershipwith bacteria and other types of
microbes, all those friends need tobe there. And, and the ways that,
you know, all the ways that we try tocreate a thriving root zone and not,
and not drown them with ourwater is all important if the,
if the root zone is going to be ableto have the buffet that we want them to

(14:25):
have in their living soil.
I would agree. Yeah, for sure. Andthe more vibrant that community is,
the better, um, nutrition isavailable. And not only that,
a lot of the microbes that are found inthe soil provide other benefits aside
from nutrition, like competitionagainst, um, pathogens. For example,
if you have a lot of healthy bacteriadown there, then there's less room for,

(14:47):
uh, an unhealthy bacteria to show up. Um,
it might just be stimulating the plantto make little immune compounds because
they're there and they don't reactstrongly to that particular fungus,
but they're aware a fungus is thereand they might be more ready. Um,
there's so many things that they provide.
Um, I know that you do a lotof aeroponics and so this, um,
this may be an unfair question toask you specifically for living soil.

(15:10):
And I'm not looking for us to likeplug any manufacturers, but, you know,
as somebody who is constantly lookingat ways to create healthier and more
thriving roots as youdo in your research, um,
are there any inoculatesor particular teas or, uh,
anything that you would recommend forliving soil people to help support
this, uh, thriving rhizosphere?

(15:33):
Yeah, I mean, so for my research I'mgenerally trying to avoid the, um,
the presence of bacteriaas best as possible.
Cause I'm really tryingto just get at the root,
but I do use compost teas a lot when, um,
when I'm growing at home and I, I usually,
I don't know in placeswhere you can get them,
there's like a nettle horsetailbr infer tea that you can use.

(15:54):
A lot of 'em have molasses bases,
which is really helpful to get certaintypes of bacteria and fungus to get
growing. There's like somany good recipes online,
it'd be hard to plug just one.But if you, if you go and,
and have a look at somecompost tea recipes,
I think the simplest ones arethe best. Mm-hmm. ,
like a little bit of of soil that'shealthy plus some sugar sources,
plus some plants is usually a good start.

(16:16):
Plus. And the one that you mentioned,I mean, you've got the, the, the, um,
the silica from the horse tail and the,
the growth hormones fromthe spring nettles. I mean,
that's a pretty potent mix you just, uh,suggested too. Oh, it is. Yeah. Yeah.
. I guess the otherone I would say too is, um,
it depends on the stage that you'readding it. Because I, I will often,
when I have very young plants,I'll do like a barley tea.

(16:38):
So you soak barley fora little while and, um,
all the different growth factors thatallow the barley to sprout are then
present in the liquids.
You can either buzz it up oryou can take the liquid off and,
and put it on young seedlings and it, it,
it's thought to help growand I do it myself. Right.
On. Good clue. So, um, you,when you were back recently, uh,
or back when you were here the firsttime re uh, recently on episode 99,

(17:02):
that show was all aboutexudates, um, which is a,
is is a, a process thatthe roots bring on, um,
nutrients.
Now granted that's an hour and a halfepisode that we talked about exudates,
and I'm gonna ask you to summarize itjust in, you know, in, in a short answer.
And because I think it's important thatfolks understand that roots do have this

(17:25):
exudate relationship because it'spretty badass. But I'll, I'll, you know,
my goal is maybe hopefully to teasepeople with this so that they understand
kind of what you're talkingabout for this episode,
but then to encourage them to goback and listen to episode 99.
So will you just briefly, uh,explain how, um, cannabis roots, uh,
work with the exudate relationship?

(17:45):
Yeah. So broadly speaking,exudates are, um,
molecules that, uh,
the plant root will make thatgoes outside of the root.
And it, it's, so it's madeinside the root, it's,
it's exported outside the root.And while it, while it's out there,
it can do lots of different jobs. It canprovide food for microbial communities,

(18:09):
it can help to, uh, loosenup some nutrients. Um,
like we were just talking about,
breakdown nutrients and things like thatnearby. It can provide some protective,
um, efforts too to prevent, I don't know,
like it could be antimicrobialor antifungal or something like that. Um, and it,
they're, they're just a huge broadrange of, of molecules that do this job.

(18:31):
Excellent. So, so, uh, go back andlisten to episode 99 for more .
So, um, so I'm really curious. We, we,we've already talked about how the, um,
the roots, uh, take on,um, uh, nutrition and,
um, and I believe that mostlyhappens at the root hair level.
Would you explain to us,um, in, in, you know,

(18:54):
kind of both a chemicaland a mechanical way,
what's actually happening thereat the root hair that allows
the nutrition to comeonboard inside of the root?
Sure. I mean, I think for the root here,
it still kind of comes across the waythat it would come across in a lot of
other, um, cells. So when we'retalking about transport from inside,

(19:18):
or sorry, from outside the, in thesoil environment into the root,
all cells are wrapped up in this nicelittle membrane that has essentially,
you can think of them as like littletrapped doors mm-hmm. , um,
for nutrients to come intothe root that are regulated.
So you'd have to turn on a switch forthem to come in. And that happens. All,
all cells are doing this all the time,

(19:38):
and that is no differentin a root hair cell.
The big advantage to root hairsis it's increasing absorption.
So if you think of, like, think of howbig a root is and how visible it is,
you could see it,
it's usually depending on how long theplant's been growing can be super thick.
Um, whereas these roothairs are super, super tiny.
And so while the main root can plowthrough the soil at a pretty good clip,

(20:02):
the little root hairs are meant to kindof slide in between soil particles and
increase the surface area.Does that make sense? Yeah.
It does.
So that's kind of theirprimary purpose is to,
is to increase the absorption rate.
And when plants are trying to choosewhat kind of doors they want on their
cells, the root hairs will oftenhave a lot of, um, like for my work,

(20:23):
I'm interested in how iron gets in andthose root hairs can have more iron doors
on them so that more iron canget in on those root hairs Right.
Than they might in a regular cell. I.
Like, I like that trapped door analogy.
And so there's all these differentflavors and they only open when they are
looking for the particularnutrient that approaches it.
Exactly. Yeah. Like.
There's a, like a secret knockor something . There.

(20:45):
Is, yeah. Yeah, a little handshake., uhhuh, , uhhuh.
. So, you know,
cannabis cultivators often comeinto contact with the roots, right.
Like sometimes justbriefly when transplanting,
but other times if the plant is rootbound in a container, um, you know,
we might be reallyaggressive with the roots,
like grabbing them and ripping themand thinking that we're getting rid of

(21:07):
tired roots that were compacted.And, and most people will say, oh,
I'm stimulating new growth by pullingthese, uh, these, um, you know,
roots that were compacted off andgiving it more room to breathe.
How careful should we be when handlingthe roots? Because on one hand, you know,
because I learned it from my mentor, the,
the ripping apart of the roots likemakes sense because that's what I was

(21:31):
taught. But I also constantlyhear from soil biologists that,
that the roots are very sensitiveand we can put the plant into shock.
So I'm assuming that the, the truth ofthe matter is somewhere in that range.
I would agree, actually.
So I don't think it's wrong to thinkthat you are stimulating growth

(21:51):
because just like we were talkingabout earlier with the clone and,
and how that's a wound healing response,
that it makes more rootswhen you damage the roots.
That is definitely something a plantwill respond to and it will make more.
So it's more about like hoping you don'tdamage it so much that the plant is
overwhelmed. I think likeroots are very sensitive,
so as soon as you take them out of thepot, they're being exposed to light.

(22:12):
They weren't expecting, you're touchingthem. A lot of those finer structures,
light the root hairs thatare so, so small and fragile,
like they're only a singlecell thick. So like you're,
you're definitely destroying those andit will definitely take the plant some
time to recover from that. I think it,
it depends on the type ofplant that you're working with.
Well, specifically cannabis.

(22:33):
Yeah.
But there's gonna be a certain amountof cannabis plants that are very sturdy.
Um, but there might also be more sensitiveplants that maybe don't grow as well.
Oh, I get you.
Mean, you mean specific like whatwe call strains or varieties,
not different species entirely.
Yeah. I mean I like, I, I grow a lotof plants, so I would say species too,
but if we're talkingstrictly about cannabis,

(22:53):
different cultivars are definitely goingto have, um, different vigor mm-hmm.
mm-hmm. . Andso in a plant that has a lot of vigor,
you're probably okay to maybe manhandlethe, the pot a little bit more.
Um, but in a plant that's verysensitive and doesn't grow that well,
it's gonna be trickier. And Ithink most of the time I would,
I would say that unless theroots are dead or diseased,

(23:18):
I would try and keep themintact as much as possible. Um,
you can break them up a little bit.Like, um, like when you encounter,
particularly with hard walled pots,
sometimes you see the roots kind ofrun around in a big circle. Yeah.
And so you can kind of try and loosenthem up so that they'll not break them,
but like try and kind of untanglethem a little bit mm-hmm.
so they might gosomewhere else, fluff 'em a little.

(23:38):
Bit.
Um, yeah, exactly. So thatwould be okay. I mean, I,
I try and be as gentle as possiblewith my root balls, but yeah,
it's gonna happen regardless. I thinkjust the extent that it happens,
you might have to be carefulwith some cultivars over others.
Would it be fair to say that if we'regrowing from seed and we have a tap root,
we definitely shouldn't mess withthat. Just, you know, if we're gonna,
if we're gonna trim roots, trim, you know,

(23:59):
secondary roots don't betouching the tap root.
Yeah. I think that's probably fair. I,
I don't know enough about what happensif the taproot gets super damaged,
whether it would produce a new taprootand like how that developmentally would
occur. But I think it, like,
because it does serve this differentfunction than the other roots,
that if you damage it too much,it, it will cause changes.

(24:22):
And I don't know whether thosechanges would be good or bad.
And I think it would be fairto intuit that, um, you know,
a damage to a taprootwould put, um, you know,
extra undue stress on the plant thatit would have to bounce back from.
And since we're all dealing witha timed growing cycle that, uh,
none of us want, none of us want tocause that slowdown and growth. So for,

(24:45):
for our, for our plant, um, we shouldprobably just stay away from it.
Yeah. And I think this actually is agood point that you're bringing up.
The whole timed thing,
if you have like a mother plant that'smeant to be in vegetative growth for a
very long time and it'll neverget flipped over into flour, um,
you might have differentchoices to make. So for example,
it gets root bound because it's growingso long and maybe you don't have a

(25:08):
bigger pot,
so you kind of have to do some pruningabove and then some pruning below.
And like, those are choices you wouldhave to make with a, with a mother plant.
And how much or how little youdo of it would probably, again,
depend on the cultivar.
When we're dealing with likea plant that's about to go into flour and it's only
got a certain amount of time,
that's where you really don't want todamage the roots too much because they

(25:28):
don't have enough time.
And all the time that it's going tospend recovering is time that's not
necessarily gonna be put towards yield.So in like a, in a yield situation,
absolutely. You definitelydon't wanna be, you know,
making that plant suffertoo much. Awesome.
That's a great delineation. Thank you.
So what biology determinesif the roots? Uh, well,
you know how like when yougo to transplant, when you,

(25:50):
when you pull it out of the pot, sometimesit's got those like bright white,
like pearly white teeth, beautiful, um,
roots and then, and then sometimes,you know, be like, you know,
somewhere between a little more beige orgray and then you've got roots that are
just like, you know, sad. Um, is,
is it just our guesstimate that, um,

(26:12):
that the white rootsare the most thriving?
Is that the ideal or are lots ofdifferent roots of different colors
perhaps just different kinds of roots?
Because when I see the bright whiteroots, I'm all like, hell yeah,
I'm doing good. And, and when I seethe beige ones I'm like, oh, I'm not,
I'm not, you know, treating thispot right in some way, but like, I,

(26:36):
I really don't know. I just made that up.
Oh, what an interestingquestion. Okay, so the roots,
like all of the root isimportant. I, I totally agree.
I love seeing those little white roottips and in aeroponic sometimes they're a
little fuzzy cuz of those little,little hairs. Oh, that's so cute. Yeah.
Yeah.
They're adorable. And they only occurusually pretty close to the root tip, um,

(26:58):
because then they die off andthen the plant has other, like,
that's where you might see a lateralroot form or something passed there. Um,
so the white tips are the activelygrowing parts of the root,
which I think is why we love themso much. And we're like, yay,
we've got a lot of white growing areas,
but the rest of the root's stillsuper important and the browning isn't
necessarily because of, um, bad things.

(27:20):
So oftentimes what will happen isdifferent chemistry happens at the tip of
the root compared to the, the olderroot plants might put down, for example,
more tannins or protective molecules that,
that will change the color of the root.
But that's because the functionof the older root is different.
If that kind of makes some sense to you.It does. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

(27:40):
So when we see those kind of brownerroots at the, at the, you know,
closer to the stem,
that's just because the function hasstarted shifting and so the chemistry of
the root has startedshifting. Um, and like it,
it would be hard to pinpoint exactlywhat is happening there for a given call
tomorrow, but, um, that'sgenerally what's happening. The,
the ones where it'sscary is when there is a

(28:03):
black root tip, I guess. Like ifthat black black or dark brown or,
or those kind of colors are happeningat the very tip of the root,
particularly in cannabis,cuz it's root tips are white.
I do work with some plants that have awhole bunch of different colors happen
there. Um, but in cannabisspecifically the white tip, um,
if that's starting to brown oranything like that, you might have, um,
a bacterial problem. So yeah, it justdepends on where it's happening, I guess.

(28:26):
Mm-hmm. .
So, so let's say not quite as, um,
bad as that black tipped pathogen version,
which sounds like a horror movieto me. It is. Um, uh, is there,
is there any way for us to identifyroots during transplanting that
we should shave off? Because, you know,historically I would shave off, uh,

(28:46):
a bunch of those beige ones if Isaw them. And now I know that I,
that was probably not well thoughtbecause, uh, perhaps the, the,
the plant is creating tannins inthose regions for, um, you know,
safety and security reasons.And I just like cut 'em off. Is,
is there any way for us torecognize roots that are,
are a damaged part of the systemthat should be shaved off?

(29:10):
I think you can kind of think aboutit. I guess the other part is, um,
there's a connection between the rootsand the chutes where like there's usually
certain roots that serviceparticular parts of the plant above.
So it's really hard for us,
like looking in the pot as we're tryingto transplant to be able to determine

(29:30):
like, oh,
this branch I cut off here are theseroots here so these ones can go mm-hmm.
. So I think it is a bitof guesswork. Um, but like if they're,
if they're like particularly dry looking,like they're kind of shriveled, um,
and I, when a, when a root is likefull of water, they're kind of,
I dunno what the best wordto describe it would be,
but they're almost like plump, youknow, like they, they have, yeah, yeah.
They have like kind of a juicy lookand um, if they're unhealthy or dead,

(29:54):
oftentimes they'll be quitethin, like a thread almost.
And so maybe like the thready ones youcan get rid of a little bit more easily.
But it is a lot of it's guess work.
And I don't have a firm answerfor you as to which part would be,
I usually for myself, I, I look for as I,
as we were just talking about kind oflike the browner root tips that might be
experiencing some bacterial effectsor something like that. But,

(30:17):
but there can be good, goodbacterial effects too. So I,
I generally just try anddo my best guess. Right.
On.
I wish I had a betteranswer . Well.
No, that actually is pretty good becausewhat I took from it is that if you see
roots that are particularly emaciatedand they visually look thin and like
they're not carrying water that,um, perhaps those can be removed.

(30:38):
But generally speaking,
we want everything in the root zone ifwe don't see like a black or colorful tip
on it. So just, uh, give,
give your roots a light fluff andthen go into the bigger pot and,
and just don't think youhave to touch the roots when
you're transplanting.
Don't assume that that's gonna bepart of your transplanting process.

(31:00):
Only do it if, um, uh, if youactually see visual problems.
I, I think that's a prettyfair statement. Yeah, that's,
or at least that's what I do.
And I know lots of people have differentphilosophies and what the best solution
is, but I think for getting your plantsto recover quickly from transplant,
like as little damage as possibleand as, as you say, like if,
if they look emaciated andthey're really sad looking roots,

(31:21):
like maybe trim those off, butotherwise a little fluffle, do you.
Right on. You know, one of the, oneof the interesting you said, you know,
everybody's got their ownphilosophy and, and you know,
that's true and there are,
there are different ways to have differentphilosophies within actual science,
but I think when it comes to cannabis,
we've all been taught so much likebro science by our mentors and

(31:43):
then from friends that, um, like if,
if anybody should be decreasingthe number of justifiable
philosophies, it's,
it's our community becausewe have so much bad
information to root outof our community first.
And then once all thatbad information is gone,

(32:04):
then people can like finddifferent parts of, of, you know,
that the remaining area to, you know,
count as their particular techniqueor philosophy. But, um, I don't know.
I kind of, I kind ofthink that that, that we,
we haven't had access toproper science scientists,
analytics and research folks for thelast, you know, 40 years that, um,

(32:26):
that, you know,
us all trying to kind of bring thetechniques all towards the center,
which has actually got a scientific basisis probably a pretty good set for all
of us.
Oh, I agree. And I think,um, I think that there's,
there's all these little habits thatwe do that we don't really question and
those I, I like to question myselfYeah. Too mm-hmm. , um,
and as you say there,

(32:47):
there's a lot of myths and legends aboutexactly what type of thing you should
do at what time andthings like that. So I,
I think there's a lot of tried and truemethods that have worked for people for
a long time. Um, but I,
I do agree that bringing things aroundto like a scientific perspective and not
just doing it because someone told youto do it, um, which is kind of ironic,

(33:07):
can be giving advice about this, but, you know, like think about it,
you know. Yeah.
So, um, I've got two more questionsbefore we go to the break. Now, in the,
in the third set, we're gonna betalking a lot about, you know,
the care and feeding of a thriving rootstructure so that we can have the best
one available. But, um, but uh,before we go to the set break,
I want to talk about things thatdegrade root, root growth and, uh, two,

(33:31):
two different categoriesspecifically. Are there particular
amendments, inputs,
or fertilizers that can degraderoot growth that we should avoid
in cannabis plants?
Ooh, interesting. I think this is a,
this is a more of a conversationof mount or like what the state is,
cuz this can happen whenyou're building a soil.

(33:53):
But it can also happen when you'refeeding fertilizer. Like if it's too,
I guess quote unquote hot is the termthat we end up throwing around a little
bit. Um, that can be a problem. And mostof the time I would argue it's because,
um, particularly with fertilizers,
it's probably because of pH or somethinglike that where it's like they're just,

(34:13):
the poor little root is getting flooded.And I think it also happens more with,
um, certain limiting nutrients likenitrogen where the plant is less, um,
less able to close thetrap door. For example.
Nitrogen is almost always like all thetrap doors are open all the time cuz
there's not enough of it.
So if you flood your root systemwith too much nitrogen, it builds up.
But the way that plants convert what wefeed them to a usable form of nitrogen

(34:37):
to them, all the intermediates betweenfertilizer and usable nitrogen are toxic.
So they'll start killing the cellsoff if there's too much of it. Um,
and I think with soil, ifit's not well mixed, um,
it can actually heat up in not justhot as in like too much nutrients,
but as in like temperature hot, uh,
and obviously if your root zoneis like 60, 70, 80 degrees,

(35:01):
you're gonna have a hard time survivingin those kind of conditions too. So.
I like your exampleabout if, if we have, uh,
too much fertilizer in a particularplace that it kind of, um,
jams the trapped doors open and,
and kind of force feeds theplant to its detriment. Um,

(35:21):
that's the same description that people,um, use when describing, you know,
bottled salt nutrients abouthow it force feeds the plant.
Is that what's happening like atthe root level? Is that the, um,
the, the, you know, thesynthetically prepared, um,
fertilizer is essentiallybreaking down the doors and,

(35:44):
and going into the roots, um,
more nutrition than the rootzone would normally let in?
Yeah, so especially with, I thinkit's more dangerous with, um,
with like synthetic or bottledfertilizers because it's so concentrated,
um, and it's in such an available form,the plant doesn't have to do any work.
So it just does flood intothe root system. And as, um,

(36:06):
as I was just mentioning it,
like it's not so much thatthe nitrogen itself is toxic,
it's that in order to be able toturn it into something usable,
it goes through a toxic stage. So thenthe roots can't, it's just too much.
They can't do that process quick enoughto avoid all the toxic effects of that
process. It actually can happenwith really rich composts too.

(36:27):
It, it just, I think atleast in my personal opinion,
it's harder to do because a lot ofthose composts still needs some breaking
down, so it's a little bit slower.
But if you dump like pure compost at theroot zone of a particularly sensitive
plant that isn't capable of ticking itall up, it'll start to do similar things.
Yeah. Right on. Okay. And then, uh,the last one is how about pesticides?

(36:48):
Because you know, sure we, we applythe pesticides usually Foley or up top,
but we know that through,you know, watering and the,
just the regular biology of the plants,
either the pesticides willdrip down to the soil or
the plant will take it in and movethose chemicals. Um, oh, you know,
whether or not they besynthetic or you know, organic,

(37:09):
they're gonna move themaround the plant. Um,
are there any pesticides that wewould want to avoid because they too
degrade root growth?
I mean I have a personal bias againstthis cuz I don't generally like to use
pesticides, . Mm-hmm .I think that when you apply,
I guess it depends very much on the typeof pesticide you're referring to cuz a

(37:31):
lot of them have toxic effects ifthey're in too high of a quantity and it
actually can be both the naturallysourced ones and also the synthetically
prepared ones.
Like if you put too much mint oil onyour plants and turn the lights on,
like those, those poorlittle guys are fried. Um,
but with the pesticides like on,
they're still able to take someup through the foliar system.

(37:52):
But depending on what mechanism thepesticide is supposed to work by, um,
I don't know if it woulddegrade the root particularly,
but it might have theability to affect the growth.
Like if it's acting likea growth regulator or um,
or it's got a heavy metal componentto it or something like that,
I'm sure that it can be taken out by theplant and if it doesn't have a way to

(38:13):
deal with it and it'stoxic in higher quantities,
that will probably happen in the plantjust like it would in any other system.
It's.
Interesting. We keep on comingback to balance, you know,
it's like mm-hmm, it's like hey,
you've got a lot of different optionsfor how to cultivate your plant,
but whichever one you do do itproperly and not so much that you

(38:33):
knock your root system out of balance.
Yeah, for sure. And like I thinkparticularly with pesticides,
I don't know if I would be like,
I'm not personally aware of any pesticidethat if you watered it in at the
amounts that you would spray it, itwould cause a huge amount of damage.
I think if you did that you'd probablybe killing it above as well. Um,
but it might affect the root communitytoo. Like if you're adding an,

(38:56):
an antimicrobial or an antifungal uh,
agent to the top and thenit drips into the roots,
I think you'd be affecting the rootcommunity more than you'd be affecting the
plant. Yeah. Which of coursedoes affect the plant eventually.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I,
I have to be careful that myselfcuz one of my favorite, um, uh,
well I I I think of it as a pesticide,but really it's, it's more about, um,
discouraging pests. Um,I really like a, uh,

(39:20):
a garlic fermented plant juiceon, on the, uh, you know,
sprayed foliar during, uh,during veg because, um,
you know, it it, no, no, like aphidsis my big problem where I live.
They just don't wanna livethere. They don't like,
they don't like the experience for,you know, whatever smell pastries in.
And so, but, but if,

(39:40):
if I put too much of that onto the plantand it soaks down into the substrate,
well, garlic also hasantimicrobial, um, uh,
aspects of it and I, and I don'twant that happening in the root zone.
Absolutely. Yep. I think I think it,as you say, it's, it's about a balance.
So if you, if you just have to be careful,
especially when you're trying to altersomething that's happening to the plant

(40:03):
in a way that doesn't affect theplant too. It just gets, I don't know,
it's sometimes it's subtle. Yeah.
This is, well the, the more we getinto, uh, the cultivation specifics, uh,
it is more and more subtle, right?
It's like when you first start growingcannabis, it's like, oh, you know,
just put the seed in the ground and itgrows and then at the end you got some
weed, but then you like want more yieldand better weed and healthier plants

(40:25):
and you wanna keep more plans and that'swhere the subtleties come as as we get,
you know, more and more in love withthis, uh, way to express ourselves.
So right on. So let's go ahead and takeour first short break and be right back.
You are listening to Shaping Fireand my guest today is plant biologist
Sarah Lane. And you know,
without these advertisersshaping fire would not happen.

(40:47):
So please support them and let them knowyou heard about them on shaping fire.
As cannabis regulations become moredemanding and consumers become more
educated,
it is increasingly important to avoidthe use of chemical pesticides when
cultivating cannabis.
Beneficial insects have been usedfor decades by the greenhouse,
vegetable and ornamental plant industry.

(41:09):
And today many cannabis cultivatorsare moving from sprays and chemicals to
beneficial insects. COPThas the beneficial insects,
mites and nematodes, microbials, stickycards and air distribution units.
You need to partner withnature to defend your garden.
Whether you manage acres of canopy orhave a simple grow tent in your home,

(41:30):
culprit is ready to helpanswer your questions and help you transition away from
chemical sprays towardsclean and natural solutions.
Since 1967,
Pritt has assisted growers in identifyingpests and devising reliable solutions
while providing healthy insects andmites that will protect your yield.
Since the 1990s,

(41:50):
Pritt has been a leader in cannabis pestand disease control worldwide and have
highly trained consultants to assistyou in Canada and the United States from
coast to coast with their globalnetwork of grower support,
COPT can help. Visitcopt.com, choose your country,
and get detailed information.
That's copt K o p p e r t.com.

(42:14):
For the most UpToDate cannabis relatedbiological control information,
you can also check their Instagramat copt Canada. You know,
getting away from pesticides is goodfor health and good for business,
and COPT is ready to help.Visit copt.com today.
There are so many seed banks nowadaysthat you really have options in who to

(42:36):
choose. Not only that, ifyou pick the wrong seed bank,
you could be in for a really sketchy ride.
And that's only one of the reasons Irecommend gas lamp seeds to my friends and
listeners who are looking for a seed bank.
You probably already knowgas lamp seeds as hemorrhage.
Genetics hem recently changedtheir name to gas lamp seeds.

(42:57):
Gas lamp seeds is not just anotherSeed Bank Gas lamp is a female operated
boutique cannabis genetics provider thatonly sells thoughtfully curated seeds
from the top names in cannabis breeding.
With over 60 breeders and over athousand strains to choose from,
you will certainly findsomething you'll love.
Gas lamp Seeds has something for everyone.

(43:18):
With over 650 feminized strains,
300 regular varieties and over200 AutoFlow to choose from
names you know you can trust. Likecompound genetics, Humboldt Seed Company,
night Owl in-house, fast buds,
nom automatics and ethos and we bothknow that there are other seed banks who

(43:39):
will take your money buthave no customer service.
I invited gas lamp to advertise onshaping fire after hearing so many good
stories about them From my friends,
they have a plus customer servicewith lightning fast response times.
In most cases,
Helene and Caitlin will get yourorder out the same day you place it.
Most seed banks are simply not thisorganized or interested in getting your

(44:02):
seeds to you so fast,
but gas lamp seeds cares you evenget free seeds with every order.
Helene and Caitlin get it.
They have been in the cannabisgrowing scene for over a decade.
Want some extra freebies?
Use the code shaping fire all one wordat checkout and they will give you an
additional set of gaslamp provided freebies.

(44:25):
That's an extra $30 in free seeds.
Buy seeds from good folks who will sendyou great seeds reliably every time.
Visit gas lamp seeds.com today.
That's gas lamp seeds.
You've heard me talk aboutthe award-winning cannabis seeds that come from the

(44:45):
analytical breeding programof Seth and Eric Crawford,
who founded Oregon's CBD seeds. In fact,
Seth was a guest on shaping fire in2020 to talk about triplo genetics.
Seth and Eric are now releasing highTHC seeds for home growers and farms as
grow the revolution seeds@gtrseeds.com.

(45:07):
Their high THC seeds are extraordinaryin that they will start to flower
at 16 and a half hours of daylight insteadof the typical 14 and a half hours of
daylight. That means in most regions,
your plants will start to flower outdoorsin the middle of July instead of the
middle of August,
which means these photo period plantsfinish in September and not October

(45:30):
totally upending thephoto period seed market.
Seth and Eric took their prized earlyflowering c BG line and bred it to some
of the most desired verified geneticsout there, including sour diesel,
triangle Kush, wedding cake,chem dogs, Skittles and others.
These crosses all express powerfulphoto period terpene profiles and THC

(45:51):
giving you a great highGTR Seeds has a new T HCV
line with plants like Double Durbanand Gigantor that boast one to one th
HC to T hcv. And people want that thcv
GTR seeds are very consistent,
true growing in-bred f1 s fromstabilized in-bred parent lines.

(46:14):
These seeds are nearly homogenous andthe plants should all grow the same.
There is only one phenotype inevery pack available as Diploids and
Triploids. Seth and Eric'scompany is still family owned,
patient and employee-centric and partiallypowered by their two acres of solar
panels. Everyone can purchase these seedsand the entire catalog of Oregon CBD

(46:36):
seeds@gtrseeds.com.
Go to gtr seeds.com today and choosesomething revolutionary for your next
indoor or outdoor run. Welcome back.You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Chango Los and my guesttoday is Plant biologist Sarah Lane.
So during the first set, we uh,
looked at what exactly a routeis and the jobs that it does,

(46:59):
and some things we want to avoid ifwe want a thriving, uh, you know,
root zone. Um,
here in the second set we're gonnatalk more about the actual structure,
which is what, what the topicthat was the genesis of, uh,
me asking Sarah to come back right awaybecause during the exudate show, um,
she got into thisexplanation about how um,

(47:23):
the root structure isdifferent in, uh, uh,
coco choir and, um, Pete, um,
non soil or soilless uh,
containers than it is in living soil.And ugh, I wanted to go down that path.
Um, but we just didn't have time then.
And so here we are today and we'regonna go down that in a lot of different

(47:44):
ways. So, so Sarah, let, let'sstart at the top. When we,
when we use the phrase root structure,what specifically do we mean?
I think like when I think of rootstructure, I think about, um,
the root ball itself,
the different components that make upthe root structure and how that differs
between plants, whether that becultivar or species or whatever.

(48:08):
And that's usually like how thedifferent components might be arranged,
whether they're present or absent. Um,
all of that would be somethingI would call root structure.
So in a typical cannabis plant,
what would we expect the root structureto look like in soil? Like is there,
you know, since, since in natureit's in soil, I'll say that the,
the soil root structure is the airquote's more natural one just for the,

(48:32):
for the time being, just in case lemmeget away with that. And, uh, and so what,
what would we expect root structure tolook like in soil, in the ground outside?
Okay. Um, well, I mean we can stickwith our beautiful cannabis plant.
A nice big tap. Root goes straight downas far as it possibly can grow. Um,

(48:53):
you can think of that like the verticalaxis, I guess. Mm-hmm. .
Um,
and then from that all these lateralroots start to grow that kind of stick out
from the main root and theygo sideways. So they're,
they're trying to like increase thedifferent places that the root can access.
And then from there there might be evenmore little branches and more little
branches. And then at thegrowing tip of the root,

(49:14):
there's a little tiny zone there wherethere's a bunch of little root hairs that
grow and they don't live for a hugelylong time cuz that root is still moving
places and they, so maybe likea couple weeks. Um, but they're,
they're so tiny we can barely see themwith a naked eye and we definitely can't
see how thin they are cuz they'rea single cell wide. Um, but they,
they would be just in like alittle maybe, I don't know,

(49:36):
a couple centimeters long zone rightthere and they would kind of bush out into
the, into the soil.
When I see diagrams of rootstructures of different, um,
types of plants, um, someof them go, you know,
quickly really deep and somestay at the top and then some
will throw down like a taproot and then, and then,

(49:59):
and then the rest will stayat the stop at the top.
What is the architecture of the, the,
the root system in an adult plant? Are,
are they mostly up top where they cansupport the plant from falling over
and, you know, get, uh, rainwateror with a cannabis plant,

(50:20):
are they all making thismad dash for depth, uh,
in order to create stabilitythat way and get, you know,
water that is in the soil or aquifer?
Um, in, in cannabis plants, as wetalked about this a little bit earlier,
like if it's a clone it might not getas deep if we're talking about like in

(50:40):
soil mm-hmm. , uh,
because it doesn't necessarily have thatdeep tap root to go driving down to the
bottom. But in most cases like that taproot, it also anchors the plant as well.
Cuz I mean,
I don't know if you've ever tried toget up some of these weird little red
carrot type weeds in your garden.You have to really yank on them,
like that tap root's deep and that plantis not falling over for the most part.

(51:02):
So it does provide a lot of anchorage. Um,
but I think like what we're talkingabout diagrams and things like that,
that we find, like, I think mostof the time it depends on species.
So for cannabis it's,
it's mostly gonna be on a tap root systemthat's going straight down and then
it's there for water, for anchorage,for all these different things.

(51:22):
But then all the lateral roots providesupport for whatever that purpose is.
So it's kind of digging in there,but also increasing absorption.
The deeper the tap root to the more likelyit is to survive things like drought
because it can accessthat groundwater layer.
Whereas we find in a lot of plants,
and here I'm not talkingabout cannabis specifically,
but a lot of plantsthat make surface roots,

(51:43):
it's actually a very nutrient rich layerof the soil where most of the organic
matter sits. So a lot of the lateralroots above are meant to get nutrients,
specifically.
They're not particularly good at gettingwater because there's not a lot of
water usually in that layer.
So earlier you mentioned that, um, in, um,
in container plants, uh,
clearly the cannabis taproot cannot goas deeply because it's gonna be stopped

(52:08):
by the bottom of the pot. Um,
other than a taproot thatdoesn't go as deeply as it may,
like what other root structurechanges might we, uh,
find in the,
the lateral and other root structureswhen they are in a container versus when
they are free flowing in the ground?

(52:29):
I think mostly, I, I thinkI would have to say length.
I haven't really dissecteda, a like, you know,
removed all the soil to have a look,but I would guess that because, um,
and I guess it does depend on the typeof pot too. So for example, we use, uh,
cloth sided pots and they're meant tobe sort of like self pruning so we don't
get like running rootsmm-hmm. . Um,
and so for us we would end up probablyseeing more, and I'm speculating here,

(52:53):
but I would expect to see more shorterlateral roots that are coming off that
main tap root. Um, and, and theyprobably wouldn't grow as much,
but there's probably more branching.
And by branching I mean like lateral andthen these little roots branch off of
that and some more roots branch off ofthat kind of exactly the way a tree looks
on top. Mm-hmm. But belowmm-hmm. .
So what happens, what, you know,
what are the effects of compaction onthe root structure? Um, you know, we,

(53:16):
we talked in the first set about, um,
how in a, um, uh,
a pot bo bound plant, how the,the roots run along the sides.
But I would think that as a plantis getting more and more root bound,
that there are other, uh, changes, uh,

(53:38):
that happen in the root zoneto deal with that systemically.
Yeah. I mean, when we, when welook at like root bound plants,
like oftentimes there's just notthat much soil. And, and I mean,
I would expect the first thing would bejust like the soil properties change,
so you don't have as much waterretention. Um, there's not as many, um,

(53:58):
like when we talk about things likecataract exchange and stuff like that,
there might not be as manysites for that to happen.
So that's basically the way that soilacts, like a little kitchen cupboard,
if you will. Um,
and there would be less kitchencupboards available for nutrients to be
retrieved from. And so most of the timewhen we have a super root bound plant,
it's just that there's not enough physicalspace and soil to support that much

(54:22):
plant. Does that makesense? Yeah. I found that.
So it's not so much that the rootarchitecture itself may be changing,
although it might, it's more just,
it just can't support thatmuch root in that little space.
And so then the systems willstart happening, happening, um,
in efficiently and it'll essentiallyjust fall out of balance and your plant

(54:42):
will get sick in one of many ways.
Yeah. And it's usually like, Ithink the first thing I notice when,
when plants are too root bound is like,
it's just hard to keep them fed andwatered. You have to water more often. Um,
,
I've had a couple of plants that haveactually almost pushed through the bottom
cause I haven't had a chanceto get to them. So the, like,
they just kind of pushed thepot out of the way. Um, but it,

(55:04):
it can get pretty bad and then you endup with a root ball that just can't
sustain the amount of shoot growththat you have. Um, and then,
and then the plant just endsup getting super deficient.
And if we wanted to relatethat to something like yield,
I think your yield would be severelyimpacted cuz they just can't put that much
nutrients towards the rest of the plant.
It's always a bad scene when you findthe plant that you forgot to transplant

(55:26):
and it's got all the roots that are comingout of the holes, the drainage holes,
and you're like, oh baby, I'm so sorryI for, I didn't see you over there.
And, and you know,
sometimes you get lucky and it wassitting on something else and so now it's,
it's rerouted itself in like the potunder it or something, you know? Yeah.
Which is, which is alwaysinteresting. But yeah, that's, that's,

(55:47):
that's a bad day at the office when youfind that you've neglected a plant that
bad cuz you know you're gonna have tocut those roots and that's not gonna be a
good day.
I've gotten pretty adept at pullingthose roots out of holes. Uhhuh,
partly cuz of the waythat I deal with my research plants. Um,
I need them to kind of do that. So, um,
there's ways to untanglethem very carefully, but, uh,
but that does just go to show you howefficient plants are at seeking out

(56:10):
nutrients. Like nothingin this pot, out we go,
we're going somewhere andwe don't know where it is,
but it will find somethingsomewhere to eat.
Yeah. And you know, that's areally good point, you know, for,
for folks who are homegrowers who are, you know,
growing two or four or 15plants where every plant is
important because they need toyield their medicine for themselves,

(56:34):
um, you'll have a lot moretime to kind of, you know,
wiggle the plant backand forth and, you know,
gingerly pull them up and try tosave as many of those roots versus,
you know, in a, in a scaledcommercial or, you know,
medical environment whereyou've got, you know,
a hundred or or a thousand plants where,you know, you're just gonna pull your,

(56:57):
your knife and go, you know, cut, cut,cut and pull it out and transplant it.
And, you know, that's a, that's a verydifferent kind of, of, of cultivation.
But it is interesting how, um,
the same problem has to be solveddifferent ways depending on the variety
of cultivation that you're doing.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's,it's something to mention too, like,

(57:21):
like if you have the time to try andsave the roots, I think it, it helps.
We were talking earlier about like howmuch root to lose and that kind of stuff,
but the actively growing roots arereally the ones you want to try and save.
So I do my absolute best cuz those littlerunners are probably the most active
as they're trying to escape mypoor little pot situation, .
So, so this next question is the onethat, um, that was, that was spun off in,

(57:46):
in episode 99 and the exudate. So, whichis kind of the seed for this episode,
which is, um, you know,
Coco and Pete cultivation systemshave become like really popular
over the years and I, and I think stillincreasingly so, and you know, in the,
in the beginning folks wereusing Cocoa Qu and Pete to

(58:07):
supplement what we generallythink of as living soil as a,
as an aeration and waterretention solution.
But nowadays people are just using cocoaand peat and they're not even using,
um, you know, the living soilaspect. And then they are,
then they are adding nutrition intothese cocoa and peat pots with, um,

(58:29):
you know, what, whatever, whateverkind of fertilizer they choose from,
from compost tees to, to amendments,to, to bottled stuff. So there's,
there's a lot of options with these,these systems. And you had mentioned that,
uh,
root structure is going to bedifferent in these types of pots and,
and I'm super curious to hearwhat the differences are.

(58:52):
I guess the, I guess whenwe think of root structure,
we kind of have to back up and realizethat the root structure's kind of
dictated by the environmentand the needs of the plant.
So like when we talk about whether plantsmake a lot of lateral roots or not,
like they're gonna make lateral roots,
but how many depends on thingslike nutrient availability or
oxygen presence absence,that kind of thing.

(59:14):
So in a soil that's verymixed up, there's like,
when you mix a good soil, like you,
it's gonna gonna be quoteunquote homogenous to your eyes.
You're gonna make sure that likethe pearl lights in there evenly,
there's not a big clump andstuff like that. But on a,
on like a microscopic level, it'snot really, there's little pockets.
And so that's gonna influence the plantbecause it has to move towards little

(59:35):
areas of nutrients. Um,
in a system where the nutrients areactually homogenous when we're watering it
in and we're not necessarilyproviding any other source.
The plant's still gonna be movingaround in there, um, but it might,
it might need to actdifferently, um, because it,
there d doesn't have that many differentpockets in the, in the soil system.

(59:58):
And I think hydroponics is the mostextreme of that because we can,
not only can we really see the rootsto look at them, um, but there,
there's just one place thatall of these nutrients are,
and they're evenly available.
So I would expect to see less branchingand less root hairs and that kind of
thing.
That's interesting. So one of the, uh,
one of the things we talk about in theshow a lot is how in a, in a, in a,

(01:00:21):
in a living soil with a goodfungal environment that the
fungus is, um, you know,
creating channels for the waterto seep through and for the,
the roots to find their ways through.
And it would be my expectationthat in cocoa and Pete systems,
um, because there is less

(01:00:44):
tiny particles of soil to fill in,
in between that a cocoa and Petesystem will have a lot more air
pockets and, and, well, I'm not,don't want to dwell on the air part,
but more like, um, paths,passages for the roots to follow.
Do, do you find that in cocoa andPete systems, the, the roots are, are,

(01:01:06):
are growing more willy-nilly becausethey have so many more options instead of
the fewer options that you wouldfind in a living soil system?
I guess it depends. Like, I think, Ithink the more complex the soil system is,
the more complex the roots becomebecause they're just, uh, like I said,
they have to go adventuring forall of the things that they need.
And it's not all immediately readilyavailable. I feel like with aeration,

(01:01:31):
for example, or like pockets like there,
there's probably other things andwhether you'd notice it if you just like
pulled the two root systems up, likeyou might notice it if you count up the,
all the lateral roots or if you, youknow, measure the thickness of the root,
it might might change, but it,
I think it would be a lot of chemistrywould change too. Does that make sense?
Yeah, for sure. Does that answer.

(01:01:51):
Your question? Yeah,yeah. Um, and then, um,
I'm gonna ask you a similar question, butwith two different, uh, varieties. Uh,
first will be, you know, a hydroponicversion where there is, um,
you know, there is some kind of cisternof water and you've got nutrients there
and the roots are growingdown into it. And, uh,

(01:02:13):
I guess this would work for anearth box too, where the, the,
the roots are sitting in the,
the nutrient water. Um,
how will the roots grow differentlyin that kind of environment where they
really don't have to travel atall to, um, access the nutrition?

(01:02:34):
I think they'd probably grow downmore. Um, the one thing that I've,
I've noticed the most, atleast in my own research, um,
is that the root hairs are missingMm. Because they're so fragile.
Um, and there might,
like if you took out a microscope anddid a little cross section and did some
fancy staining,
you might still see like the startof a root hair or the types of

(01:02:57):
cells that could form a root hair.
But when you actually look at rootsthat are grown in hydroponics,
especially because there's acurrent and stuff like that,
it doesn't really permit those superfragile structures from showing up.
At least not macroscopically. LikeI can't see them with my eyes. Um,
whereas like other systems,
they probably would be present becausethey're not being disturbed as much.

(01:03:19):
Do you think that that impacts thethriving nature of the plant or is it just
like equal and different?
I, I lean towards equal and differentbecause the purpose of a root hair is to
increase absorption.
And that's really important when wetalk about like that super complex soil
mixture, we were just discussing, um,
where you might need the extraabsorption because that little pocket of,

(01:03:42):
of minerals is just alittle too far away for the,
the chemistry of the main route to helpand just needs like a little finger to
go in there and collect itmm-hmm. . Um,
whereas in an a hydroponic system, you'rereadily changing the nutrients over,
you're readily providingit with what it needs,
and it doesn't necessarily like it.
A a regular root tip might be totallyfine for absorbing what's there. Mm-hmm.

(01:04:04):
I follow. So the lastone I want to talk about is aeroponics.
And um, you know,
there are certainly not very many of uscultivating cannabis who have got adult
plants that are usingaeroponics. Um, however, um,
it's incredibly common forfolks to use aeroponic, uh,
cls at the beginningof a plant's life. Um,

(01:04:26):
so my question again is, uh, um,
when the plant is hangingbut it is suspended and
it's not in, it's not, you know,actually submerged in the nutrient water,
it's actually beingsprayed with fine mist. Um,
how does that impact the root structure?

(01:04:46):
Um, like for me, I use even finer mist.
I use fog and I notice, uh,quite a big difference. Like,
like the plant just doesn'tneed to go down as much. Um,
and I don't have empirical evidence thatit's like, particularly long or short,
but for, for my plants in aeroponics, Ifind they kind of, they're pretty bushy.
Mm-hmm. . Um, andthose root hairs are retained.

(01:05:08):
That's the big thing that I noticedthere because the fog is so gentle,
it's just like a little air currentand you can actually see the,
the root hairs come out,
but they also last longer cuz they'renot getting moved around in the soil or
like used up. Um, and so theydo seem to increase absorption.
It kind of makes sense when you'redealing with a very gentle fog or mist
because it, it's not,

(01:05:29):
it's not as evenly distributed as aliquid would be cuz it's relying on air
currents to, for delivery.Um, so I think the root hairs,
they tend to stay longer and they're moreimportant in, um, in aeroponics there.
I think if you're spraying like, cuzyou know, like the grocery store,
high pressure aeroponics that keepsyour lettuce wet. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

(01:05:50):
, um,
that mist might be enough to change theroot hairs depending on how fragile they
are and what, you know, again,cultivar species, whatever, um,
differences you want to talk about, um,
if it's being spread directly at theroot, you might see less root hairs. Um,
but if it's being sprayed into the chamberto increase the humidity, you might,
you might again see more root hairs. Um,
something that's a big noticenoticeable difference for me.

(01:06:11):
Yeah. Right. On the, the, the,
the root structure in fog p cannabisplants is really incredible.
Um, it, it really looks unlikeanything else. And, and you're right,
it does look like, you know, this, this,
this more compact shrubberywith, with all the, these fine,
uh, fine hairs. Um, it, it does look likeits own animal. Mm-hmm. ,

(01:06:34):
do you have any suggestionsfor folks who are,
are starting theirclones in an arrow cloer,
but their plan is to move them into a,
a cocoa peat or a, um,
a living soil system because the,
the root system that theyhave when they're being moved is not designed for that

(01:06:59):
environment. Maybe you'll tellme it doesn't matter, but, uh,
I want to address that one way or another.
I think it does. We, uh,
we kind of experienced similar issueswhen you're transferring from tissue
culture two,
because it's a very specific environmentthat the root has been growing in.
It's got a certain weight to it, it'sgot a certain, um, water content,
all these different things that can happenthat at the root surface that it can

(01:07:21):
sense that's gonna be very differentwhether it's gel or air or water or
whatever you are usingcompared to the soil.
And so my my suggestionwould be that, you know,
most of the times we fill a pot andthen we dig a little hole and we put our
plant in it. My general suggestionwould be, don't do that,

(01:07:42):
fill a little bit and then just kindof hold the plant up and sort of like
gently fill it in that way so it cankind of retain that structure a bit more.
Mm. Mm-hmm. ,
you still have to be carefulwith like large air pockets,
you're gonna have togently press down, but I,
I think that that would probably preservethe structure a little better than
just kind of s smushingit in there, don't jam.
It in there, don't let it,
let it hang of its own accordand then fill it around it.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that would,

(01:08:02):
that would be the best way I think topreserve that very delicate sort of
structure. And I don't have,again, like this is speculation.
I think it should provide the roots andsupport as you're filling it in. Um,
and I think it would cause less damage,
but it's still going to experience somedifferences compared to what it was
growing in. So you might stillsee some damage, um, just,

(01:08:25):
just because it's not as wet or it'shaving to adjust the type of nutrient
acquisition it's doing,like those kind of things.
But hopefully that way theroot architecture is preserved.
And I know that's something Ido with T culture is I like,
I'll fill the pot three quarters fulland then I'll just kind of try and like
fill in around it so that the route'skind of supported from below before I
start squishing it down.
All right. So, um, let'stalk about, um, uh,

(01:08:49):
comparing a couple ofthese different, um, uh,
substrates as far as microbiallife interaction goes. So in soil,
most cultivators are looking for complexmicrobe systems so that the plant
thrives and is pest free andhas a complex terpene profile.
Um,
and that happens because thereis this burgeoning community of

(01:09:13):
life in the root zone in TheraSphere. Um,
however,
in in cocoa and Pete and in hydroponics
we're, we're,
we're pouring nutrition and in manycases we're pouring microbes in,
uh, to the root zone. But, uh,

(01:09:33):
because there is not anestablished soil community,
I I kind of get the ideathat they're kind of,
anything that we add is just passingthrough. Um, because there isn't, uh,
a system to sustain lifein those other non soil
environments. So, um, how,

(01:09:55):
how does this impact theexperience of the roots to thrive
and to bring nutrition that the added
microbes and nutrition are not,
I guess I'll say residentsof the substrate,
but more that we're,
we're pouring it in and it's there fora little while and then they're gone and

(01:10:19):
then the roots are waiting forus as the human to add more?
Yes. So I guess I'll answerthat in a couple parts.
First supplementationof microbes. Um, it's,
it's sort of a spicy take,
but I don't love the addition of thatkind of stuff because as you say,
it is very transient. And mostof the times that we're like,

(01:10:40):
when we talk about building aliving soil and we're adding like,
like my, or, um, like bacterial,
I think bacterial is theeasiest to get started with.
And because they grow so quickly andthey have such a quick life cycle,
it might do better,
but most of that is relying on the factthat it's going to stay put. Mm-hmm.
, um, in particular my,

(01:11:01):
because like the microrisal structurethat actually provides benefit to
the plant includes like hifa, whichare basically little fungal roots that,
that need time to grow. They'revery fragile. They're even,
they're even this thin, maybe eventhinner than a root hair. Like they,
if you start moving them around,um, and this is something,
I don't know if you've heard of no-till,

(01:11:22):
but it's one of the main reasons whypeople try not to till their soil mm-hmm.
because you're actuallydisrupting all those little fungal roots.
Um,
and I don't see that that's really goingto be something that can form properly
in something like hydroponicswhere there's current and in the same way that the
root hairs don't form, I wouldnot expect to see fungal hye form,

(01:11:43):
at least not to the extentthat where they're helpful. Um,
bacteria a little differentbecause again, they can,
they can still colonize kind ofon the surface of the plant root,
but their main job in a, in a soilsystem is to help break down nutrients.
And some of the stuffwe were talking earlier,
like provide protection and stuff, andthey're just going to be more limited.
Um, as far as like how that fits into,

(01:12:05):
I think it's probably easier to getthat started in peat, but as you say,
when we're watering it through and we'renot really providing for the bacterial
or microrisal community as well,
they're not really getting set up therebefore you're adding something different
and you're just pouring more stuff inthere. Does that enter your question?
Yeah, it does. And um, it wouldmake me think then that, um,

(01:12:28):
without the,
the constant access to the residentmicrobes in nutrition as you
described it, and, and instead, um,
it's just going to be there whenI add it, that, um, you know,
you might, you might still getperfectly fine cannabis plants,
but there's some percentageof, of thriving or,

(01:12:50):
or in our case with the cannabisplant specifically, um, yield and,
uh,
and terpene profile that you mightexperience a little less in these
mediums where we have to, um,
add the nutrition througha cocoa p or hydro system.
Whereas in living soils, it's there. Um,

(01:13:13):
would you agree with thatassessment that those,
those plants will be perfectly fine andpeople have great success with them,
but, but there's, there's,
there's some percentage that'smore than zero that would be
benefited by the living soil approach.
I, like I am, I'm heavily biased towardsliving soil. I think it's like such a,
such a fantastic,

(01:13:33):
like build an ecosystem from the groundup and let your plant live in it. Um,
I think we've talked about this before,maybe on the, the last time I was here,
where I certainly believethat there is a shift,
like each growing method that you usedoes something a little bit different to
your plants. And it depends whenwe're talking about like, um,
like terpene profiles and stuff like that,

(01:13:55):
there definitely is a difference when you,
when you grow in living soil versuswhen you grow in hydroponics,
when you stress them out,when you don't. Like we,
we know we can influence these terpeneprofiles depending on what we do to the
plant. So I don't know if thatnecessarily makes it better or worse,
but when we talk about things likebacteria and add adding mycorrhiza,
I think you really have to askyourself why you're adding it.

(01:14:17):
Because when we're going tohydroponics and aeroponics, uh,
we're providing pretty much everythingthe plant needs to put on weight as
far as yield goes.
Like we're providing it nitrogen andminerals and phosphorus and, you know,
all these little thingsto, to help it out.
It might not be as good atdefending itself from disease, um,

(01:14:37):
or something like that that might bebenefited by a living soil, but like,
for just making flowers grow,it'll be perfectly fine. Um,
but that's why when you'readding it to a hydroponic system,
I don't know that it always is doingthe thing that people think it should be
doing, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does make sense. All right.So to, to wrap up this, uh, second set,

(01:15:00):
um, I'd like to get you to weighin on, um, um, pot variety,
um, plastic pots versusfabric pots. Um, you know,
a lot of people were happy to move onfrom the plastic pots, um, because,
you know, a, they they get hot if youlive somewhere hot because they're black.

(01:15:20):
Uh, uh, b you know, they don'tbreathe if that is an advantage. Uh,
c it can get kind of swampy in there ifyou tend to over water or if you don't
have a good, uh, soilstructure. Um, versus the,
the air pots, which, uh, excuse me,
the fabric pots and airpots I guess where they,

(01:15:40):
they talk all the time about how, uh,
the roots are air pruned alongthe side and, um, you know,
there can be more oxygen exchange,
but I don't really know that airpruning along the side of a fabric pot,
um, or more air exchange with the potare necessarily good things. I, I don't,
I, I know they claim themto be good things, but I,

(01:16:02):
I don't know that to be true.
It does seem that the plasticpots would be more akin to,
to actually being grown insoil, but I don't know that,
so I would like to hearyou compare the two.
Okay. Well, um, I guess for starters,
I do tend to use air potsor, or fabric pots. Um,

(01:16:23):
but it's, it's sort of a combination.
So if we think about thewhole oxygen air thing,
we do actually need soil to be rated.
Most of the beneficial microbes thatwe're talking about today are, um,
they're requiring oxygenjust like everything else is.
And in on the opposite hand,
we have a lot of bacteria that are nothealthy that grow in anaerobic or like

(01:16:46):
oxygen free areas. So whenit comes to extra oxygen,
I'm, I'm all for that. Itsort of prevents, I mean,
there's still other husbandry thingsthat you would want to consider,
but in my opinion, it,
it helps prevent things like pythium andstuff like that from really taking root
mm-hmm. , um, and likeair pruning and stuff like that,
it changes the root structure.

(01:17:06):
I'm not a hundred percent sure ifit's for the better or if the worse,
but it does seem to do a pretty good jobof growing with mother plants and stuff
like that. I will say theyare paint water because um,
the water just kind ofleaks out the sides. Yeah.
So you still have to have like a plasticsaucer underneath and they don't,
there's definitely things that I don'tabsolutely enjoy a hundred percent about
them. When we look at like a hard wallplastic pot, um, I think you do like,

(01:17:30):
if they're definitely easier towater and they definitely retain, um,
they don't dry out as, as quickly Iguess. Um, so you can put water in there,
it's not evaporating out the sides.Um, so that the whole root ball,
it might be easier to control for watermoisture if you don't water as often
or something like that. Um, and again,
I think there's otherhusbandry issues that you,

(01:17:51):
that you'd also have to look into as faras whether that necessarily makes the
growth of bad bacteria easier or not.
That often has to do with thetype of soil you have too.
So I don't know if it'sdirectly relatable, um, but I feel more comfortable in,
in the, in the fabric pots.
And one way to get around themiserable watering situation is to, um,

(01:18:12):
use like drip emitters or somethinglike that where your soil is more
constantly, um, wet, which is actually,
especially for living soil better becausea lot of the microbes need to be wet
constantly too. So asfar as living soil goes,
my personal preferencewould be fabric pots. Right.
On. Thank you. That's great analysis. Um,
I use the fabric pots as well and therewas one thing that I learned about them

(01:18:34):
that that really annoyed me. Istill continue to use them, but I,
I didn't like this fact figuring itout. Um, I was, I was talking with uh,
uh, uh, Josh from Dragonfly Earth Medicineabout them and about how, how I, I,
you know, I, I like using fabric potsversus plastic pots so that there's,
you know, I'm using less,uh, plastic. And, uh,

(01:18:55):
he had the audacity to point out thateven though we're using the term fabric
pots, that um,
nearly all of them on the market arespun plastic mm-hmm. . Yeah.
And I looked into it and dammit,he's right. And so Yep. They're,
they're plastic pots just ina different form. And so, um,
that fact pissed me off. Andso I went and I, and I, I,

(01:19:18):
I intentionally purchased actual hemp pots
and they degraded and fellapart in one season. And I'm.
Like, they do. Yes. I'm like.
Well damn. The biology of it, um,makes the spun plastic, I guess,
at least necessary for the time beinguntil we've got another material. But, um,
yeah,
me thinking that air quotes fabric potswere some kind of linen was like totally

(01:19:41):
wrong.
No, and I think a lot of, um,
I think you're probably not alone becauseI think a lot of us are trying to use
less plastic and that kind of stuff.
And I don't necessarily think that fabricpots will mean less plastic cuz it's
basically like wearing a polyestershirt or something like that.
There's definitely some plasticin there, but as you say,
any of the natural fibers tendto disintegrate very quickly. Um,

(01:20:02):
so like felt or spun orwhatever. You're, you're gonna,
the, the more naturaland less plastic you go,
the more often you have to replace them.I, I, which isn't really a big deal,
I guess when you wanna like transplantinto a field or something, you probably,
like if they degrade in a coupleof months of, you know, watering,
they're probably okay . But.
What I hate though is the idea of my, uh,

(01:20:25):
spun plastic fabric pots that are outside.
And once I learned that asthey degrade over the years,
they are very likely sheddingmicroplastics mm-hmm.
into my farm's ecosystemmm-hmm. . And, uh,
that was very disappointing to me.And so I don't have a solution for it,

(01:20:46):
but I think that, I think that it'simportant for us all to be aware of, of,
of the truth of it.
Absolutely. And I think that goes to like,
like when we're choosing thingsto have a preference over,
like I think when you choose a fabricpot because you aren't necessarily saving
the plastic. Um, and I don't thinkin a hard wall plastic, like,
especially cuz you're putting acidicfertilizer and things like that through,

(01:21:08):
you're breaking that plasticdown too. So I, it's,
it's a trade off more about is itproviding you the right, right.
Growing environment for your method andthen make your choice based on that.
Because fabric pot, certainly,in my opinion anyway,
support living soil betterwhen you get them going. Um,
but I mean, a hard wall plasticis totally fine too. Right.

(01:21:29):
On. Cool. All right. Let'sgo ahead and take, uh,
our second short break and be right back.
You are listening to Shaping Fireand my guest today is Plant biologist
Sarah Lane.
Online Cannabis seed distributorsoften seem to be all the same,
but multiverse beans constantly worksto provide you with cannabis seeds and a
buying experience thatyou won't find elsewhere.

(01:21:52):
Multiverse Beans works directly withthe breeders to secure as many packs of
your favorites as possible so that theyhave your favorite beans long after
others have sold out. Some shopssimply buy breeder minimums,
but I get messages all the time fromBreeders saying some version of Multiverse
asked to buy my entire run.
At multiverse beans.com you can findrare cannabis seeds from Night Owl Seeds,

(01:22:14):
including the Dark Owl sub-labelMaisto Genetics Square One
Genetics, Robinhood Seeds andEthos, and so many others.
Multiverse also initiates projects withbreeders to secure exclusive packs that
you simply won't find elsewhere.
Multiverse founder Paul Law sees himselfnot only as a curator of the best

(01:22:35):
cannabis seeds available,
but also as a collaborator with breederstrying to bring novel crosses to the
market that his customers are asking for.
Multiverse Beans also creates exclusivestickers for their popular seed
varieties that are available freeonly when you order those seeds from
multiverse.
Check out their stickers like thebadass recent slap for Moth Man by known

(01:22:56):
automatics on Instagram atmultiverse beans. And finally,
the freebies. As you'd expect, Paulsends quality freebies with every order.
And when you spend at least$150 multiverse allows you to choose your freebies
from their special selections,
you can get a 10% discount off regularlypriced items when you use the discount

(01:23:18):
code shaping fire, allone word at checkout,
sign up for their mailing list to beeligible for their monthly seed giveaway
worth $250.
So go to multiverse beans.com nowfor a buying experience you won't
get anywhere else.
One of the challenges with buying AutoFlowseeds is that often you'll have as

(01:23:39):
many different pheno as you'll haveseeds in a pack that can be fun. Sure.
But so many varieties in one pack is asign of an immature seed line that hasn't
been worked enough.
I prefer my AutoFlow to be worked enoughthat each pheno in the pack really
captures the aspects thatthe breeder was intending.
This is why I recommend no automaticsto my friends and listeners who grow

(01:24:02):
automatic flowering cannabis seeds.
Nom automatic seeds are notjust crossed and released.
They are painstakingly sifted againand again tested in a wide range of
conditions and taken to alevel of maturity that each plant will be recognizable
by its traits,
traits that were hard earned so thatyou can have your best growth cycle ever

(01:24:23):
over the last 10 years.
Nom Automatics founder Dan Jimmy hasbecome a trusted breeder and he continues
to pour his passion of breeding cannabisinto every variety he releases for you
to grow.
Check out the Nom automaticsInstagram at nom underscore
automatics to see the impressiveplants folks are growing.

(01:24:44):
You can score nom automatic seeds infeminized or regular at your favorite seed
provider listed in the vendorsection of their website.
Commercial cannabis farmsacross the country love growing nom automatics because
of their consistency from seed to seed.
Short grow times THC percentagesand colorful bag appeal.

(01:25:04):
Farms interested in bulk seeds of morethan a thousand should reach out through
no automatics.com. While on the website,
be sure to check out the nom automaticsshirts and other merch section two.
If you want reliable seedshand-built from effort,
expert selection and experience,choose Nome Automatics.

(01:25:27):
One of the reasons why no-till cannabisgrowing is so valued by farmers is
because the mycelium networks in the soilremain established from year to year.
And we know these fungal networks areessential because they're the nutrient
superhighways that extend far and widein the substrate to feed your plants.
The trouble with growing in new livingsoils or blended cocoa substrates is that

(01:25:50):
it takes most of the plants' life justto create these mycelium highways.
Dino, endo,
microrisal fungi inoculate reduces thattime and gets your plant eating a wider
array of nutrients faster.
And it's three times the concentrationof the other popular brand in the US at
900 propag program of two fungalspecies selected specifically for

(01:26:13):
cannabis cultivation.
Dmic is the result of 30 years of researchand trials at the Vocon Agriculture
Research Institute in Israel.
It has also been vigorously trialed bycannabis and food growers across the us.
Dynam Myco is now available at GrowShops and on Amazon in the United States.
I love using Dynam Myco to both speed upthe growth of the mycelium networks in

(01:26:35):
the soil, but also as a bio stimulantto make clone cuttings more vir.
You can see side-by-side showing thecomparative growth on their Instagram at
dmic.
If you demand reliable growing resultsand appreciate the importance of an
active root zone increating a thriving plant,
I encourage you to check out dmic.comand use the store locator to find out

(01:26:57):
where you can get yours.
That's d Y N O m yco o.com
shaping fire listeners can get 10%off any size of Dyna Mico on Amazon
or dynami.com by using thediscount code shaping fire,
one word no caps. Whether you arestarting with new beds or pots,

(01:27:18):
or if you want to addsome zing to tired soil,
choose Dynam Myco to maximizeyour plant's potential.
Dmic Endo Microrisalinoculate. Welcome back.
You are listening to ShapingFire. I am your host Chango Los,
and my guest today isPlant Biologist Sarah Lane.
So here we are in set threefor the big finish. Um,
what we're gonna focus onthis set is, is the, you know,

(01:27:42):
the care and feeding of a good andthriving root system because, you know,
it's one thing for us to understandwhat root structure is and what the,
what the root system is doing.Um, but we as cultivators,
we wanna make it as as healthy andhappy as we can. So, um, so Sarah,
let's talk about how much to water. Um,

(01:28:02):
what should our considerations beacross the various substrate systems we
have discussed today tomake sure that we're,
we're watering in a zone thatis enough for the root system,
but not enough to drown it?
Well, that's a good question.
So I think the first and foremost thingsis that roots do not like to dry out.

(01:28:23):
So you wanna keep making sure thatthe soil is wet and that the roots,
the root ball itself is,is nice and at least damp.
Obviously overwatering is a problembecause the roots then can't breathe.
They're kind of like drowning if youwill. Um, and, and that's a problem. So,
but it depends on the substrate ofwhat this looks like. For example,
in hydroponics they're kind of alwayssitting in water and there it's more

(01:28:44):
important to make sure that the,the liquid is aerated properly.
So it's not stagnant. In aeroponics,this is almost never a problem.
You just wanna make sure that the sprayis happening often enough that the roots
are not drying out while they're waitingcuz it's not usually a constant thing.
And then in soils we wannausually, um, when I'm watering,
I lift my pot up a little bit and asit starts to get lighter and lighter,

(01:29:05):
you know,
that the water's evaporating and thenbefore it has a chance to get too dry, um,
then you water again. Andwith living soil, um, systems,
it's even more importantthat it stays damp.
So if the surface of the soilstarts to dry out too much, it,
it isn't that healthy for thatsystem. So then I, I would,
I would check probably daily or everycouple of days to make sure that the,

(01:29:25):
that top layer is staying atleast damped to the touch.
And another re that, that's another goodreason to use some kind of, uh, uh, uh,
small plant cover crop of some sortto, uh, keep the top of the pot,
um,
moist so it doesn't go hydrophobicand push the water off and uh,
and, and helps the water get into thepot. I would think also that cover crops,

(01:29:49):
um, would be helpful becausethe roots of the cover crop,
um, also interact with theroots of the cannabis plant and
um, you know, they communicateand share resources, right?
Absolutely. And covercrops are an excellent, um,
especially if you'reworking in a soil system,
they can be super beneficial not onlyto to keep the water in cuz it's not

(01:30:12):
getting lost and evaporating asmuch. Um, but also as you say,
because those roots are, areproviding like a little layer of,
of support and networking, if youare careful about what you choose,
you can also be contributingnitrogen. For example,
we often plant like micro clover, um,
or red clover in our pods becauseit does kind of give back to the,
the system as opposed to some covercrops where it would also be using up

(01:30:35):
nutrients.
I'm forgetting the, the, thevocabulary word for it. But, um,
there are certain plantsthat, uh, you can, uh, uh,
plant as a companion plant thatactually do, does the other plant harm.
Um, are you aware of any plants where the,
the roots of that plant actually arecombative against ca uh, cannabis roots?

(01:31:00):
Um, off the top of my head, I'mnot a hundred percent sure. I,
I know some like classic, I think whatyou're referring to is a allopathy. Yes.
Um,
and there's like definitely some plantsthat are just like absolute no toxic,
but they're like big trees. Like younever plant anything under black walnut.
It's like a circle of death,
but you're obviously not plantingthat next to a cannabis tree.
I think if you're worried about itsticking strictly to things like,

(01:31:22):
like clover. Um, and some of the,like if you go to a farm supply store,
they often have good cover cropsthere and those plants usually are com
compatible with a lot of other plants.
I don't know anything offthe top of my head that,
that I would want to put in apot that would do that, but yeah.
Yeah, stick with the basics unlessyou're choosing to research it first,

(01:31:42):
essentially.
Basically. And like there's lots of,lots of great op uh, like options.
We do marigold. You can do, um,like basil, you can do like some,
some types of herbs arepretty good in there. Um,
Basil's really good basil and marigoldboth are good too because, um,
they can be planted inwith your cannabis plant,
but they also act as likean insect trap because, um,

(01:32:03):
like everything loves basil.So if you plant a basil plant,
you're probably getting firstsigns of bugs will show up there.
So they can be kind of usefulthat way. And of course,
like the clover is areally good one too. I've.
Gotten into the habit of, of throwing, um,
different types of food producing plantsin my pots. Mm-hmm. , I,
uh, I, I toured, um, uh, a farm wherethey were growing potatoes under their,

(01:32:27):
their plants outside intheir, in, in the kind of, um,
the duff berm that they were doing outthere at Green Source Gardens. And uh,
I thought that was such agreat idea, but like, you know,
we have to be in containers, uh,where we are. So, so, you know, I,
I got strawberries grown in one, Igot carrots grown in another perfect,
got like culinary herbs in another.And uh, and you know, you get,

(01:32:48):
you get that wind from the covercrop, but also, you know, if,
if you get hungry out when you'reworking in the field, you have snacks,
so a little snack.
That's great.
Totally. Right on. So, um,
how impactful is the pH of thewater that we're watering with
on the root system?
Um, I think that depends on the soil. I,

(01:33:09):
I it's so the pH of water,
that's one of the things thatpreferentially kicks off nutrients.
And so the more acidic the water, I thinkthe more nutrients you might kick off.
What does kickoff mean? Um.
So I guess if we wanna talk about thesoil as like essentially a kitchen
cupboard,
all these structures that you see withyour naked eye on the soil have all these

(01:33:31):
little charges on them that,
that sort of collect all thenutrient salts that you're adding,
whether that's because a bacteria'sbroken it down or not. As I said earlier,
everything is basically salt at the endof the day mm-hmm. . Um,
but it stays there until somethingwould prefer to be in its spot more.
And that's usually, um,acidity. So it will,

(01:33:52):
it will take its place on thatsoil structure and because it
takes the place, then that nutrient isfree and it can go back into the water.
Does that make sense? It does. So thenthat once that ion is, or salt is free,
then the plant can use it. And sothe plant actually does it itself.
It makes acids to go out into the soiland to kick off all the nutrients off the

(01:34:14):
soil so that it can take them up.
And if you are watering in a cilike an acidic, um, like liquid,
even if it's just like water itself orwhether you've added like citric acid or
something like that, you're gonna bedoing the same thing the plant is doing.
But you can do that in excesswhere it, it would be too much. Um,
but the soil kind of buffers itself too.So it's one of those things where on a,

(01:34:37):
on a, like a, a big level, I'mnot sure it's that impactful,
but that's what's happening on asmall scale. Mm-hmm. .
So, um, so as far as likewhat we can learn from this,
it sounds like, you know,un unless your water is, uh,
making a significant swing, um, that, uh,
the buffering of the soil and if you'regenerally trying to stay near neutral

(01:35:01):
anyway, um,
the watering that you're doing is notreally all that impactful on the roots on
the pH level because it's the,
the system is more or less going toself-regulate so long as there isn't
something like really wild happening.
Yeah, pretty much. And I will, I willput the caveat in there that, um,
hydroponics is a little bit differentand I've heard multiple opinions about

(01:35:23):
whether to pH your hydroponicfeed or not. I personally do. Um,
because it, it's hardto, especially over time,
it's hard to tell what, um,
the soil or whatever mediumyou're watering into has retained.
And so making sure thatyour, your nutrients are the,
the pH they should be at before theygo in sort of helps if your soil's at a

(01:35:46):
whack. Um, but that's, some people don'tand they seem to find it works fine.
So again, it it might just be like,like we were talking about earlier,
all these things that we do cuz someoneelse told us to do it . Yeah,
totally. Um, it mightnot matter in the end.
Right. On, let's talk about temperature.
So there's a lot of different variablesthat can impact the temperature of

(01:36:07):
the substrate in the container. Uh,
this isn't something that we need toworry about in soil because geothermal
takes care of any plants that are actuallyin the ground. But, um, you know, uh,
uh, uh, dark colored pots are, aregoing to, uh, attract and hold, uh,
more of the sun's heat. Um,we've got, uh, greenhouses and,

(01:36:27):
and tents outside that can, uh,
get exceptionally hot on onreally hot days e even if we are,
have got fans in them. And,uh, I run into this on my,
on my deck because, uh, the, the,
the hours right before the sungoes down my deck will get up to,

(01:36:48):
you know, ninety five, a hundred andfifteen like way up there on a hot day.
And, and, and any plants that I have onmy deck will just, will just cook. I,
I just imagine the, the root zonesjust like turning to mush. So,
um, I'm, I'm sure that there is arange though where, um, you know,
the temperature of the rootzone is optimum. So would,

(01:37:11):
would you kind of talk about whattemperature range makes sense for the root
zone? And I don't know, I guess,
I guess the only way we would know ona hot day would be to actually throw a
probe in there.
Yeah,
so I guess the first part Iwould mention is soil's kind of
insulating. Um, and again, this kindof goes back to your growing method.

(01:37:31):
Like if you're a bear rootball hanging in hydroponics,
that's gonna be way more important, um,on, on a deck or something like that.
Like I think the same range thatyou'd expect the plant to grow in.
So like 30 or I, I guessI'm in Celsius. Um,
I think like around like a mildspring summer day would be fine.
Obviously if you're getting up toreally, really hot summer days,

(01:37:55):
you're gonna start seeing someeffects. But the soil does buffer it,
it both hangs onto heat butalso protects it a little bit.
And most of the timewhen we're looking at,
I guess the second part is when we'relooking at heat stress on a plant,
most of what's happeningis water. So the heat is,
is causing them tophotosynthesize more. Um,
they're losing more water because that'sa direct part of photosynthesis is to

(01:38:19):
lose water. Um,
and because it's happeningat a faster rate in heat and,
and they're also gettingcooked at the same time,
so their leaves are kind of not happy. Um,
it can put a lot ofwater stress on a plant,
so that's why you might see wiltingor burning or those kind of things.
And so if it's a hot day,
I think the best way to keepthe insulating properties of the soil would just be

(01:38:40):
to water more because the water'sgonna take up some time to,
to properly heat up.
It's also gonna be providing for thefact that the leaves are transpiring more
and it's gonna keep theroots a little cooler.
On hot days like this, it's kind ofgenerally accepted that it's better to,
uh,
water more times lesswater during a hot day

(01:39:00):
because, um, you don't wannasay, oh, it's a hot day,
I'm gonna water more and justgo with more volume because now
not only is the plant trying to takeup water, but you've kind of like in,
you know, um, flooded the substrate and,
and it's, it there, there's likealmost too much water and it has to,

(01:39:21):
it has to deal with movingthe water around at the same time it's trying to take
on water. Would you agree withthat best practice that, you know,
instead of doing your same twowaterings a day, but you know,
make them larger in volumeinstead, you know, do the,
do maybe even less thanyou would on a normal day,
but break it up into maybe four waterings?

(01:39:42):
I feel like there's a couple options therebecause usually when I'm dealing with
plants that are outside that are like,it's a heat dome or whatever, um,
I water more in early morning whenit's not hot so that the plant can,
I guess if you wannacall it water balance,
like then it's not already waterstressed when the heat hits mm-hmm.
. And then I probably wouldcheck more because I, I don't know if,

(01:40:03):
if you, like, if it's best practicesand people tend to follow that rule, um,
far be it for me to go against that. Um,
but I do think that it's less aboutlike the volume of water, I think.
I think especially in pots,
there's only so much water that youcan put in there per soil amount, um,
but it evaporates really fast.
So I would say that it's better towater more frequently and then maybe you

(01:40:26):
don't have to add as much water,but like in a pot on a, on a patio,
there's only so much water that can fitin there and it's not gonna be enough to
keep it like coolthroughout the whole day.
And, and the amount of water is probablygonna also change about whether or not
you're in a hard walled plasticor if you are in a fabric pot too,
because those fabric pots, they justget all hot and they, they start to,

(01:40:47):
you know, lose water outthe sides pretty fast.
So fast. Yeah. And then likein a garden for example,
I think because of just how much soilthere is, like if you're, if you're in,
in soil in the ground,
like a good watering first thing in themorning before it actually gets really,
really hot,
you might have to check outon that partway through the day hard wall like I was
mentioning. But yeah,
absolutely for fabric uts becausethey evaporate out the sides as well,

(01:41:11):
they're just not gonna retain asmuch, um, as much water. So Yeah.
And in which case, like you're gonnabe watering again in two hours anyway.
You don't need to flood the board thing.
. Um, right on. Um,
let's talk a little bit about, um,uh, supplements. You know, there are,
there are different types of fungalsupplements that are sold that people say

(01:41:32):
to, um, you know, uh,
mix into your soil so thatwhen you transplant a pot,
the the roots will interact with the, um,
with the supplemented, uh, fungiand will support root growth.
You know, essentially the, the, the,the, the connection with the, um,

(01:41:54):
between the root hair and the supplementwill wake up the supplement and,
and that that fungal presencewill, will ease the transition,
um, of the plant. Um,
do you see that happening and anddoes that kind of support make sense?
I think it does to a certainextent, but it depends,
like we were talking earlier about thesystem that you're coming from and into.

(01:42:18):
So it does take some time if we'retalking about like microrisal inoculum or
something like that mm-hmm. ,
it does take time for that process tohappen because like I was alluding to
earlier,
it's a conversation between this fungusthat's trying to help out and needs the
plant and the plant which has to prepareitself to accept the fungus. So it,
it can be helpful to getthat going early. Um,

(01:42:40):
but it really only makes sense,especially for fungus, I would say,
if you're going to then put it into apot where it's not gonna be disturbed or
into the garden where it'snot gonna be disturbed.
And I also think it depends on the healthof the system you're planting into.
Like in a pot, we have good controlover compost and stuff like that,
but it's a real old garden remedy to puta little extra stuff in there when you

(01:43:02):
transplant into, um,
maybe not as rich of a soil or somethinglike that to give it a kickstart.
Mm-hmm. .
And I would say if you're doing that withinoculum two and you're not confident
that the health of the soilyou're planting into is,
is that great then I'm sure thatwould give it a little boost.
And with bacteria, I thinkbacteria are a little bit,
a little bit more broad becausethey, again, they don't,

(01:43:22):
they don't have those like roottype structures like the hfe, um,
they don't have thathye like the fungus do,
so they're more likely to just kindof build up a little film somewhere.
And that's probably easier to water in,in different systems or more systems.
It might apply to more systems.But, um, I think there's,
there's no harm in trying, I just, again,

(01:43:43):
some systems are just not that setup to support it afterwards. Mm-hmm.
.
In the first set, you,you mentioned, uh, uh,
two or three different simpleties that you like to use, um, uh,
for nutrition for the root zone.
I was curious whether or not youhave any of those simple recipes, uh,
for beneficial bacteria toimprove the root growth?

(01:44:04):
Because you've mentioned beneficialbacteria a couple different times as
playing, uh, you know, an importantrole of, uh, both helping the,
the roots thrive,
but also breaking down nutrition forthe entirety of the root zone. Um, I,
I don't know if there is such a thing,I'm just kind of fishing here, but,
but do you have a beneficialbacteria prep that can be, uh,

(01:44:25):
poured into the potand, and will help out?
Yeah, I think, um, I think there'sa bunch of good recipes online,
but what we often do, um, and whatwe do actually in research about, um,
uh,
beneficial bacteria and how it helpsthe root is to take soil or a compost
that's already full of allthe microbes you need, um,

(01:44:46):
and then put it into somevery well aerated water.
Um, and then you can add a sugarsource of some kind, depending,
I know people talk a lot andthis is also very, I guess,
veers into sort of compost literature,
but you can get like green compostand brown compost and those will have
different types of microbialcommunities in them. Um, and so you can,

(01:45:10):
you can be pretty confident that ifyou're taking a sample from a healthy soil
and providing it food like a sugar source,
that you're gonna get a lot ofbeneficial organisms including beneficial
bacteria. So that's usually what we dowith like a good couple of composts,
a little bit of molasses like I wassaying earlier. Um, and then some,
something for it to nibble on, like leavesor like I was talking about earlier,

(01:45:32):
brack infer and stuff like that.And depending on the ratio,
you're gonna get different stuff.
Now are you talking about a, a broodcompost tea in that and that, uh,
point cuz uh, the, the de the delineationI'm trying to make is, um, uh,
you know, adding molasses to, um, a,
a compost brewer if you are goingto let it run for, you know,

(01:45:52):
36 hours or something.
And so you're going to incubate thosemicrobes or in this case bacteria that we
want. Um, and then, and then um,
root drench that into the pot.That's one use of molasses.
But then I also have beenhearing folks talk about, oh,
I want to feed my microbes. And sothey're, they're pouring, you know,

(01:46:15):
molasses or a watermolasses slurry into the pot
directly,
which that sounds superscary and unbalancing to me versus in the first example,
we're going to add enoughmolasses that's going to feed the,
the microbe and bacteria communities andthen we're going to pour it in the pot,
which is going to decrease the, Idon't know, hotness, if you will,

(01:46:38):
of the molasses.
Yeah, I guess, I guess like I,
I just assumed we were talkingabout culture, um, which is my bad,
I should have, I should haveclarified. Um, when I use compost tea,
my idea is usually based off of, um,and I know a lot of people do this too,
that you're taking a smallamount of something and trying to encourage growth of

(01:47:00):
that something into a supplement. Um,
you can just water in compost water andit will do just fine and it might take a
little longer. But remembering thata lot of these bacteria and fungus,
like they eat the stuff that'salready in your soil. So like,
rather than add molasses, youcould probably add leaflet,
litter or compost or somethinglike that to help them. Um,
cuz that's what they'reeating at the end of the day.

(01:47:21):
So when I'm talking aboutmolasses and aerated teas,
I'm definitely talking about a brewingtea where you're trying to grow
microbes for watering in later.
Great.
I just wanted to make that delineationreally sharp since we talk about both
aerated compost tees andthen compost extracts. Right.
Which won't be aerated and um,

(01:47:41):
I don't want anybody to get thoseconfused and just like, you know,
freebase molasses intotheir pot, you know,
totally fair because it happensunfortunately. I I and then, and,
and then, and then they get a decentplant and then, then now they swear by it.
Right? And it's like, oh, butthat's, that's dangerous. So.
Oh yeah. And like superstition,you, you, you know,
you have the things that make you workand, and like if, if it worked for you,

(01:48:05):
you're much less likely to not doexactly what you just did because it did
already work for you.
And there isn't really anyharm in watering compost in,
cuz it's already got all these nutrients.
If anything you're just freeing up theloose nutrients that were already free in
the compost and watering themthrough your soil column. And then,
and then you also have all thoselittle microbes that come with. So if,

(01:48:26):
if you don't have anaerated compost setup, um,
for brewing compost teas,
you can certainly just take acouple of handfuls of compost,
put it on top and water throughand it'll do the same thing.
It might just take a little longercuz you haven't encouraged that,
the growth of those microbes in the sameway. I don't know about the sugar. I,
I tend to agree withthe, like it might be,

(01:48:46):
it might get things a littletoasty in there. Yeah.
. Right on. So before Igo to the, the last question, um,
of our chat, um, I wanna justthrow a wide net here. Um, uh,
is there anything else that we haven'ttalked about today that can be done, uh,
to support, um, healthyroot life and root growth?

(01:49:08):
Um, this is,
I just wanna mop up any other bestpractices that I may not have known to
ask you, but you, because, um,because you are rudely , uh,
you, you, you might know. So is there,is there anything else that you, uh,
would suggest or recommend?
I think,
I think we've kind of covered a lot ofareas that I would talk about with root

(01:49:29):
health,
but I think one big one is like tryingto avoid disturbing the root system and,
and really going for some sort ofbalance because I feel like we often
just kind of manhandle them.
They're this mysterious thing underthere that we don't really think about.
And if you're gonna gofor a healthy plant,
you need both a healthytop half and bottom half.

(01:49:50):
So being gentle with them trying to,
trying to think about the differentthings that you can do to support them,
especially the watering part. Um,we don't want stressed out routes,
so making sure that you're keepingthem wet and able to do their job.
I think that's a big one. Um, but I think,
I think all the things we've talked abouttoday are good ways to try and promote
root health,
but at the end of the day it's up to theplant and you can usually tell if the

(01:50:12):
top half is healthy, the bottomhalf is probably pretty good too.
Right on. It does seem like, you know,
we keep on coming back to the thingthat our cans plants like, uh,
the most is balance and consistency,right? Mm-hmm. , if,
if you can go slow and steady a, you know,
do the same thing every day and try tokeep it a consistent environment, um,
while that is so hard, you know,based on our different bio regions,

(01:50:35):
it it is the name of the game.
Absolutely. And especially,
I guess the other thing I wouldmention is we focus very much,
especially on a plant like cannabis wherewe have an end yield that we're really
interested in that it's,
you still have to respect the processof growing it and making sure that the
whole plant is healthy.
Cuz at the end of the day that onelittle part of the plant you're concerned

(01:50:56):
about relies on all of the rest of theplant to grow properly and in the way
that we want. So don'tneglect your roots. Yeah.
Amen. Right on. All right, so for this,this last question, it's, it's fun.
It is, it is still a root question,
but it's coming from a totally differentdirection. So, um, all the way back,
like, I don't know, four, four or fiveyears ago or so on, uh, shaping fire,

(01:51:16):
episode 26, um, I interviewedyour neighbor up there in,
uh, bc, Natasha Riz. Uh, are you,are you familiar with Natasha?
I am. Oh, fantastic. We had quite afew nice dinners together. .
Excellent. Well, we likeher too. And, um, and,
and we had her on the show to talkabout root ball medicine because the
cannabis roots are filled with,um, all sorts of cannabis,

(01:51:41):
uh, um, biochemicals, I,I'll guess I'll say, um,
that do things like, uh, um,uh, reduce inflammation and,
and, and other things that we tend touse the tops of the cannabis plant for.
And, and there are thesebiochemicals like there's,
there's triterpenes in there and the onethat most people focus on is Frieden,

(01:52:03):
F r I E D e L I N, foranybody who that's new.
But then there's also awhole bunch of other ones,
which I could totally butcherthe names of. But the,
the point I wanna get to is that, um, uh,
since that show I have had audience folksfrom across the country reach out to
me and say, Hey,
we've started making these tincturesand solves from the cannabis root

(01:52:25):
zone and we're getting reallygood, um, effects from them,
but we wanna know how to growroots that have gotten more
of these various sterilesand alkaloids and triterpenes
and these, these these usefuldelicious medicinal biochemicals.
And they ask me, what canI do for the plant so that,

(01:52:48):
so that my roots are more richwith these, these, these target,
um, you know, biologicals. And, you know,
I don't have an answer forthat except to say, you know,
a thriving plant will probablyproduce more of those.
Like it does more resin and moreterpenes, but like, I don't know,

(01:53:09):
like I just made, I just made that up.I've just given my best educated guess.
Right. Um, but um, this is so similar tothe kind of research that you're doing.
I'm wondering if you havea more educated guess.
I actually love thisquestion. I think that, um,
like my, my work, uh,
at UIC is very focused ontrying to use plants like plant

(01:53:32):
processes that the plantalready performs, um,
to try and find things thatare medicinal about it. Um,
and this kind of does exactly that.
So when we think of the different typesof molecules that we find medicinal in a
plant, they often have some sort ofwhat we call, uh, broadly bioactivity,
which just means that it has some sortof job that it can do in a biological

(01:53:56):
system. And like a common exampleof that might be like an antibiotic.
Like if we take it, weget rid infection, hooray.
And it's usually from something that isalso trying to fight off an infection.
So a lot of our antibiotics might befrom derived from a bacteria that was
trying to fight off another bacteria.We found that it worked, so we use it.
Same with antifungalsand things like that.

(01:54:18):
So my work is mostlytrying to decide, okay,
if this is something that plantsalready make these molecules for,
what if we stress them out a littlebit in this way? So for example,
if you wanted an antibiotic,
then you maybe give it a little bitof an infection or something like that
because then it might make moreof that antibiotic for you. Um,

(01:54:39):
I don't know how this translates to rootmedicine necessarily because a lot of
these things we don't fullyunderstand, um, what they do.
Like we know that when we take them,
they have a lot of medicinal aspectsand especially with cannabinoids,
they have so many different, um, thingsthat they do for us that they've, like,
they've been all sorts of differentthings that we have found out about them.

(01:55:03):
Um, but a lot of those aren't thingsthat plants do, right? Mm-hmm.
, like they don'tlike for anti-seizure, for example,
like plants don't have seizures,
so we can't make them have aseizure to make more of that.
But for some of these things, like thatmolecule you were just talking about,
if it has an antifungalactivity or something like that,
then then maybe a plantthat has a fungal um,

(01:55:24):
problem might be good.
And then the other thing would be we don'twant plants that are too stressed out
though, because it still needs to haveenergy to fight off whatever you're,
you're giving it. Um, so it mightbe something where you can, um,
just expose it to any bacteria,
like maybe a compost tea and maybe ithas some friends and maybe some not so

(01:55:46):
friendly bacteria in the compost tea.
And maybe that will stimulate it tomake a little something extra. And I'm,
I'm just gonna put the caveat that I'mnot telling you to go out and like try
and make your plant supersick or anything .
Dump fusarium in 'em orsomething, right? Yeah.
Please don't do that. Um,but there's ways that we can,
same with our own bodies, like,um, being exposed outside and,

(01:56:07):
and those kind of things or eatingorganic foods that have things on them and
those kind of things. Like we knowthat, um, that if we're too sterile,
our systems aren't happy. So maybethe suggestion would be to just, um,
feed them some compost teas and some ofthe stuff that we've been talking about
today, um,
so that the roots are not only healthybut also are interacting with other

(01:56:27):
organisms. And then maybethat will stimulate more of a response. Just a guess.
Yeah.
Yeah. I like that guess. Um, and whileyou were saying that, I thought maybe,
maybe we could get that from,
from watering in some non-local
indigenous microorganisms, right? I mean,
we talk about IMOs all the time andhow much we love them and, and how,
how helpful it is to use localizedones. Well, well maybe if we were to,

(01:56:50):
to to use some I m o froma different environment,
since that will have a whole bunch ofstrangers to this environment mm-hmm.
, maybe you canget a similar, uh, defensive, medicinal capability,
um, without having to goso far as to, you know,
actually cause uh, damage to theroot zone. Just, just threaten it.

(01:57:12):
Yeah. And like, thismight even be like we,
we know that microbial communities arepretty local and like even maybe local to
your garden versus like acrossthe street, down the hall.
So maybe it's just as simple as like ifyou live next to a bunch of oak trees
and your friend lives nextto a bunch of pine trees,
maybe you just get some soil fromthere and water it in. Right.
On. Cool. Well thanks,
thanks for going down that theoreticalline with me just because, um, you know,

(01:57:35):
you're, you're, you're myroot expert and I mean,
I know I'm gonna be getting thisquestion more and so at least I've got,
you know, more to say even thoughwe don't know exactly what it is.
So thanks for that.
No problem.
And thank you Sarah, forjoining us again. You know,
I'm so glad that we got a chance to, uh,
continue the conversation that westarted in episode 99 about Roots,
because there really is so muchthere and that really showed me how

(01:58:00):
much I take the, the, theroots themselves for, um,
for granted.
I talk a lot about the Rhizosphere andthe root zone and the community and all
that, but specificallythe roots. I just kind of,
I just kind of take 'em for granted. And,
and the more questions Iasked last time we talked,
the more I realized I didn't know. Sothank you so much for, um, uh, for,

(01:58:21):
for joining us and sharing your, you know,good cheer and expertise and um, and,
and helping us, uh, grok a littlemore about what's going on, um,
underneath the surface in our pots.
Oh, my pleasure. Thank youso much for having me again.
Right on dear listeners. So if youare interested in, uh, reaching out,
uh, to Sarah Lane or justto kind of follow her along,

(01:58:43):
she doesn't do a lot of social media cuzshe's focused most of her time on the
research. But, uh, there are,
there's one place that you can followalong and that's at her Twitter and uh,
her Twitter is Exu Rootly.
So that is E X U D E T T e
R O O t L y. And, and if you have, um,

(01:59:06):
a question, uh, that you have notbeen able to find the answer for, uh,
out there on the internet or, or ananswer that you actually believe, um,
Sarah does, uh, invite youto write to her directly. Um,
but make sure that you give hersome time to, uh, get back to you.
Cuz remember she is in adoctorate program right now. And,
and her email is S Lane.

(01:59:27):
So that's s l A N E uv.ca.
So that's uv ic.ca.
You can find more episodes of theShaping Fire podcast and subscribe to the
show@shapingfire.com andwherever you get your podcasts.
If you enjoyed the show,
we'd really appreciate it if you wouldleave a positive review of the podcast.

(01:59:48):
Wherever you download your view will helpothers find the show so they can enjoy
it too. On the Shaping Fire website,
you can also subscribe to the newsletterfor insights into the latest cannabis
news exclusive videos and giveawayson the Shaping Fire website.
You also find transcriptsof today's podcast as well.
Be sure to follow on Instagram.
For all original content not found onthe podcast that's at Shaping Fire and at

(02:00:11):
shingle los on Instagram,
be sure to check out Shaping FireYouTube channel for exclusive interviews,
farm tours and cannabis lectures.
Does your company wanna reach ournational audience of cannabis enthusiasts?
Email hotspot shapingfire.com to find out how.
Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire.I've been your host, Shangle Los.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP106 Cannabis Root Structure Mechanics and Best Practices with guest Sarah Lane

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

All Episodes

EP106 Cannabis Root Structure Mechanics and Best Practices with guest Sarah Lane

24/7 News: The Latest