EP107 Vaporizing Flowers and Oil: The Science, Tech and Myths with guest Mark Lewis

Cannabis enthusiasts enjoy using vaporizers for a range of reasons from great taste, to the health benefits for our lungs. On this episode of Shaping Fire, host Shango Los speaks with engineer and vaporizer devotee Mark Lewis about the attraction so many cannabis users have for flower and oil vaporizers, the pro and cons of technology designs used in contemporary devices, and an array of myths clouding their understanding and use.

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Humans have been burning cannabis sinceour earliest relationship with it.
Cave evidence shows that early humanswould take whole cannabis plants and put
them on small fires in caves,and essentially hot box the cave,
and then they would have a mysticalexperience and done with the right
intentions. We still can.
We love smoking cannabis because the lungsprovide a speedy and efficient way to

(00:29):
get cannabinoids into ourblood and into our brain.
That's why smoking comes on fasterthan any other method. Hell, yes.
There are at least two strong reasonsto consider vaporizers, though.
The first is that noteveryone has lungs of steel.
And the longer we smokehot plant material and tar,
the more impact our lungstake over the years.

(00:51):
There are also folks who have otherrespiratory diseases like C O P D,
where cannabis smokingcan be used as a medicine.
But smoking anything at all isimpossible for asthmatics like myself
and other folks with respiratory issues,
vaporizers create a fun and effectivemethod for us to be able to use cannabis.

(01:12):
The second strong reason to considervaporizers is how much improved the taste
can be to be able to enjoy cannabisflour without all the burning plant
material. Getting in the way of theterpene profile is a great thing.
Many of us love the intense flavors ofdab oil without the plant as contaminant
vaping.
Flo is similar in that we are inhalingthe resin of the flour without

(01:35):
taking in all the burnt plant particulateand tar that gets in the way of true
flavor.
You've likely heard me talk aboutcannabis from Antic perspective before,
both here on the podcast and on theShaping Fire YouTube channel as well.
On shaping fire,
episode 36 on cannabis andbreathing with Robert Litman,

(01:55):
we discussed how best to inhalecannabis to preserve your lungs,
how to incorporate cannabisinto asthma and C O P D care.
And we addressed the longtime myththat holding your hits gets you higher.
Spoiler is hypoxia, not t hc that makes you feel higher.
Today's episode is a blend of cannabismedicine ideas and cannabis engineering

(02:17):
ideas.
If you wanna learn about cannabis healthcultivation and technique efficiently
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(02:38):
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You are listening to ShapingFire, and I'm your host, Shago Lo.

(03:02):
My guest today is aerospaceengineer Mark Lewis.
Mark is a lifelong engineer ofsystems, machines, and organizations.
He has been an aerospace engineer forHughes Space and Communications in Los Los
Angeles, looking for new challenges.
Mark joined the Peace Corps and wentinto the jungles of Fiji to teach science
and help with revitalizing schools. There.

(03:23):
This experience profoundly shapedhis views on the critical impact that
education plays in society,
which led him to commit 15 years toimproving K-12 education and becoming the
statewide policy directorfor STEM education in Oregon.
Most recently though, Mark Lewis is again,
an engineer and inventor of novelvaporization devices for cannabis products

(03:44):
through his company Pearl Labs.
His award-winning designs have beenhonored by the 2022 Core 77 design awards
and selected as the 2022 bestdesigned vaporizer by Enigma.
I discovered Mark through his first inproduct class vaporizer invention called
the Neo. The neo can be usedwith any pipe or bong or rig. Um,

(04:05):
imagine lighting your cannabiswith a lighter like we always have,
turning it upside down,
but instead that lighter gives off reallyintense radiant heat instead of flame,
you just put his vape later overyour flower or oil, and it vaporizes.
There isn't anything like iton the market and I love mine,
but Mark is not here to talk abouthis company at all today. You know,
I don't do company, person or productprofiles on shaping fire. We do topics,

(04:30):
topics that you're interested in.
So Marcus here is my scienceand engineering expert to break down the science
and engineering behind modernvaporizers without talking about his own
during the first set. Today we willdiscuss why cannabis enthusiasts vape.
We'll talk about the advantages anddisadvantages and the differences between
burning cannabis, flowers andoil versus vaporizing them.

(04:52):
The second set is devoted to engineering.
We will look at the three families ofvaporizer technology that make up nearly
all the vaporizers available, andthen compare and contrast them.
We will look at them twice,once for flour and once for oil.
It's a big set with a lot of details.
You will pretty much understandeverything, you know,
need to know about vapes as a toker.After that, the third set is short,

(05:15):
and we focus specifically on the boilingpoint myth that conflates evaporation
and boiling, they're not the same,
and it really impacts yourexperience with vaporizers.
Welcome to Shaping Fire Mark.
So happy to be here, Shango.Thanks for having me on the.
Show. Excellent. All right, let's diveright into it. You know, a lot of people,

(05:35):
um, feel kind of, uh,
motivated and nearly religious abouttheir vaporizers once they start using
them, but, um, you know,
a lot of people don't understand thewhy of vaporizers yet, cuz in reality,
vaporizers aren't used a ton in thescene yet. People are still mostly,
you know, lighting their cannabiswith fire. And, you know,
humans have been burning cannabis withfire for thousands of years to like great

(06:00):
effect. So let's start bytalking about the advantages, uh,
cannabis enthusiasts are afterwhen they start using a vape device
instead of combustion. Will you tellus a little bit about those advantages?
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Ithink first and foremost, uh,
there's the health aspect, right?
So anytime you areactually combusting, uh,

(06:22):
as the people on the West Coastand now the East coast know, uh,
the detrimental effects of the wildfireson their lungs and their eyes, uh,
you know, smoke carries a lot ofharmful products in it, the ash,
the soot, the tars. Andso first and foremost, uh,
the process of vaporizationremoves a lot of those,

(06:45):
or almost all of those detrimental, uh,
compounds from what you'reinhaling. So, uh, by and large,
they are healthier, um,than than smoking. Uh,
they're also more efficacious. There'sbeen some research studies, uh,
about vaporizing flour,um, versus smoking it.

(07:05):
And how much, uh, is bioavailable,
how much of the medicinals and theactive ingredients get absorbed into your
bloodstream? Um, it's, it's muchhigher than than smoking. Um,
so there's the bioavailability, um, ofthe compounds, which is also, uh, very,
um, effective. And then I think the,

(07:26):
the smell is one of the thingsthat you know, well, personally,
I love the smell of, you know,com cannabis being combusted. Uh,
but it's a little powerful forsome, and it, and it lingers, um,
because the smells, the smoke, uh,
actually gets onto your clothesor onto your, into your room. So,
so the smell of, uh, ofvapor vaporizers, um,

(07:48):
tends to be quite a bitmore discreet. Um, yeah.
And then if you're talking aboutthe, uh, vapor pens, the cartridges,
then those are very, very discreet andvery convenient, um, for people to use.
It's really been abenefit to cannabis, uh,
portable vaporizers that theybecame popular the same time

(08:11):
as nicotine vaporizers,
because people are so used topeople busting out nicotine
vaporizers that I can pull outmy travel vaporizer anywhere.
And unless they're close enough tosmell the exhale, they, you know,
people around me have no idea.So that's been a real, you know,
advantage for all of us who,you know, attend events or,

(08:35):
or even just walk along the street.
Yeah, that's a real boon for sure. Yeah.
Um, so let's, let'stalk about, um, the, uh,
the advantage also to people who've gotpreexisting conditions like me. Sure.
You know, I like, like, you know,people who listen to this show, um,
often know that, that Ihave very severe asthma,
and because I have a respiratory,um, condition, I have to be, uh,

(08:58):
gentle on my lungs. And, you know,I still smoke joints, but like I I,
I know after I've smoked a joint. Right?Um, yeah, for sure. And, and like,
you know, um, when, when you go,when I go to events like, you know,
Emerald Cup or something where, you know,
you gotta puff tough the whole weekend,um, you know, I really feel that,
um, for several daysafterwards and, and for,

(09:19):
for many people with asthma or C O P D,
if we want to inhale our cannabis, um,
vaporizers are a, uh,fantastic option, um,
because it's, uh, soless harsh on our lungs.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
It's missing all those ash particles thatthat lodge into your, your lungs. Um,

(09:41):
yeah. And, and certainly the heaviertars and oils are also removed from it.
So it's, it's much, mucheasier on, on your lungs. You.
Know, when pe when peopletalk about like the, the,
the unhealthy aspects of smoking,almost everybody just goes to cancer.
Right. But it's, it's interesting tohear you delineate that, you know, the,
the, the, the bits of smoke andthe particles in the smoke and, um,

(10:04):
the tars and all of those thingson their own have their own kind of
impacts, even if they don'teventually lead to cancer.
Yeah, for sure. And and Itry to really avoid, um,
you know, uh, criticizingpeople who, who smoke. Cause I,
I don't think there shouldbe any sort of judgment,

(10:25):
and there's so much social stigma aroundsmoking these days that I don't think
that's the reason why not to smoke.I think it's really, you know,
from a health and taste and, and thebioavailability for me, you know, uh,
it's, uh, it's a much morecomplex experience than smoking.
Yeah. And, and, and we'll get to itlater, but it's also a different high too,

(10:46):
so It is.
Completely, yeah.
Um, so, but we also need to be fair,right? Because even though vapes still,
um, even though vapes are soimproved for people's lungs, um,
it's not without it's challenges,right? Um, it's still heated air.
We're still in, he we're stillinhaling super heated air.

(11:07):
Yeah. By the time, um, it well, compared to smoke, uh,
which, you know, you can, can reachtemperatures, you're inhaling well,
right at the embers, you're,you're talking, you know, over a thousand degrees,
uh, at the ember. But, uh, you know,if you're smoking a joint, you're,
you're looking at five, 600 degrees,uh, in your mouth. And with vaporizers,

(11:29):
you're, you're well down into,you know, the hundreds, uh,
you know, into the low hundreds, youknow, 180, 200 degrees at the most,
I would think by the timeit enters your mouth.
I have not done put a thermocouple inmy mouth to measure that paper, but, uh,
yeah, it's, I don'texperience that, that, uh,

(11:50):
lung irritation from heat.
Alright, so then, so then maybeI'm misattributing, you know, some,
like I talk about vaporizers a lotwith just like regular heads, right?
Not usually with scientists likeyou and we, so, you know, it's,
it's not uncommon for somebodyto say, oh my gosh, I've been,
I've been hitting my vape so muchthat my lungs feel crispy. All right.

(12:11):
So what, do you have anysuggestion on what, uh,
what is the attribute of a vaporizerthat might make my lungs feel
crispy? Especially if it's aflour vape, like, you know,
my old school packs or something?
Yeah. To make your lungs feelcrispy, you're, well, uh,
we're gonna get into Ithink some of the, the,

(12:33):
the things that are happeningat a, at a micro level, but, um,
if you're really toasting your herbsstrongly, you probably are, um,
uh,
changing the nature of the terpenesand the cannabinoids into other,
um, thicker oils, um, that can, uh,
reside then in your lungs andhave that heavy feel to it.

(12:56):
And then certainly with cartridgebased, um, vaporizers, uh,
the carrier oils make a bigdifference. And, uh, we think we know,
uh, the background around the AliSkara a couple of years ago, uh,
with the vitamin e acetatemm-hmm. , um,
and that's exactly what was happening,right? Is is the carrier oils were,

(13:18):
were impacting your lung experience.
I think it's also fair, uh,
if we're gonna be talking aboutthe downsides of vaping generally,
to talk about what a, uh, you know,
plastic battery wasteand trash from packaging
nightmare cartridges are . Oh,sure. Um, it's, it's such a drag and,
you know, um, for years I, I mean I,

(13:40):
I'm not sure if cartridgeshave solved this yet,
but for years I would have alittle Ziploc with, you know,
partially finished vapecartridges that just had all of
this waste in there and I wasn't evengonna be able to get the oil out anymore.
And it just seemed sowasteful, like, like dub tubes.
Right? Yeah, for sure.

(14:01):
Yeah. Um, uh, and then, uh,
I guess we also have to becareful about, um, you know,
the terpenes for either oil vapes or for,
um, you know, even, I guessthat would be the only kind,
cause people don't really add terpsto flour, I hope. But, um, you know,

(14:21):
we don't really, there really aren'ta lot of studies on what it is,
what it means to,
to vape the amount ofterpenes that are common
in an oil and, um, you know,
terpenes are by their verynature caustic and it'll, it, it,
we won't know until it's too late ifit's actually unhealthy to do that.

(14:43):
And, um, I I'm sure you'vecome across that a lot as,
as you have done your research.
Yeah. Uh, well, I never recommendthat people add pure terpenes,
uh, to, um, anything that they'resmoking or, or vaporizing,
uh, because they are, uh, solvents, right? So if you think about,

(15:04):
uh, you know, limine, um,it's, it's a wonderful solvent.
It, it's, uh, helps clean yourhands, it can get stickers off,
it can do all sorts of wonderfulthings. Um, but when you're,
when you experience, uh, terpenesand, and we've, you know,
grew, you grow up smelling flowersright? Your entire life, uh,

(15:27):
and the history of humanity, we'vehad a very rich interaction with,
with terpenes in a very beneficialway. So in very small amounts, um,
terpenes are, are phenomenal,right? So, um, keeping,
keeping as close to nature aspossible is, is kind of my rule.
Right on. So, so let's talkabout that, right, because, um,

(15:49):
it's interesting because if we we'retalking about this idea of keeping it as
close to nature and, youknow, if, if we humans are,
you know, a, a thing of nature,
and we are a part of nature andwe are not excluded from nature,
the way that we have been usingthis natural plant with cannabis for
thousands of years have been, you know,by fire, you know, going into the,

(16:13):
you know, pulling out the plant and,
and going into the cave and putting iton the fire and filling up the cave with
smoke and, and, you know, then,then learning to, you know,
craft little pipes when we couldcontrol the fire better. And,
and then of course, you know,eventually developing hash. So we're,
so we're able to store it betterand right, and, and not burn and,

(16:34):
and combust as much of theplant material. Um, and, and,
you know, so many of us lovethat profound good taste of,
of combusting, you know,
quality herb that has beengrown and cured, um, properly.
And,
and then yet at the same time aswe start to use vaporizers now

(16:57):
I am enjoying the sameplant in an entirely
different way. Um,
that's giving me a differentexperience of the terpenes
and, and, we'll, we'lltalk more about the, the,
the science aspects of it lateron. Um, but, but it's, it's,
it's an entirely different tastewhere there's, there's almost a,

(17:18):
a needed transition period whensomebody goes from flour to vaporizing
because it is so different. Wouldyou describe the difference, um,
in, in taste experience, I guess,
between combusting andvaporizing the same flour?
Wow, , that's nothard. Uh, um, well, I,

(17:41):
I would concur. I, uh, first andforemost with, uh, the experience of,
and rituals of, uh,consuming a nice joint or,
or your pipe or yourbong, I think we have, uh,
learned to, um,
manage our experiences with thosedevices and with combusting by,

(18:02):
um, you know, the, we,
we get a certain feedback that helps uscon, you know, manage our experience.
And when you're shifting over to,for example, flower vaporization,
um, the feedback that you'regetting is, is much, much different.
Your lungs are not experiencingthat in intense hypoxia, you know,

(18:24):
the, the, uh, you know,constriction and the lack of oxygen.
Um, instead you're takinga deep breath, um, of,
of vapor that is rich in, uh,
the cannabinoids as well asthe terpenoids. And it's, it's,
it feels gentler, but that canbe deceptive as well because,

(18:47):
uh, as I mentioned earlier, it canget you higher. So you have to,
you have to learn to manage your feedbackdifferently with vaporizers than you
do with, uh, with ourtraditional modes of consumption.
I, I like that, uh, use ofthe word feedback because, uh,
I would say the number one complaintthat I've heard from people who are just
starting, um, uh,

(19:08):
using non cartridge vaporizersis that like, did I,
did I get a hit? Youknow? Right. Because the,
the hits with a low temp, um,
you know, handheld vaporizer, I mean,heck, even some of the desktop ones, uh,
it's, it, it feels,

(19:28):
the inhale feels so much thinner. Um, and,
and it's weird because so manypeople who are developing vaporizers,
and then because we, we,people keep asking for 'em,
we want vaporizers that willgive us clouds. Right, right.
Right.
And like in like, clouds arean aesthetic experience, uh,
of, of both feeling a good hit, like,like feedback you were talking about,

(19:52):
and also the satisfaction of exhalingand seeing this wall cloud, right.
, which, which traditionally is,
is part of the satisfaction fromtaking a bong rip. Right. Totally. Um,
so would you talk a littlebit about why, um, you know,
why that hit is, is thinner? And I,
I guess you've kind of alreadyaddressed that because there's, there's,

(20:12):
there's not as much particular in there.
I guess I would like to youto talk to more, like, um, uh,
are we missing anything fromthat thinner feeling hit?
I don't think so. From myperspective, I think, um,
you, again, when,
when you have smoke and it has the ashand particulates and stuff in there,

(20:36):
your lungs constrict. And soyou get that intensity, um,
a a feeling of, of in, of, uh,
being a little more intensebecause you're your,
your lungs are responding to,uh, these things that, you know,
are contaminants, um,from its perspective. Uh,

(20:57):
whereas when you're vaporizingflour, uh, then your lungs are,
are not feeling that, uh,intensity of invasion, you're,
you're getting things that it recognizesand they're binding to the oli
and then being moved into your,uh, into your bloodstream. And so,
um, so that's one aspectof it to the clouds.

(21:20):
I think that is a learnedfeedback that we, um, are judging,
uh, our experience based on theseclouds. But at the same time, your,
your lungs can only absorbso many compounds at a time.
So anything that you'reexhaling, uh, with a vaporizer,
you're exhaling those active ingredients.

(21:40):
If you're seeing a cloud that's kindof wasted byproduct. Yeah. Because you,
your lungs haven't taken them up and,and delivered them to your bloodstream.
So that's, that's another way ofthinking about it. And at the same time,
there's always been a, a bit of theaterin, in cannabis, right. .
And so we enjoy that aspart of the social aspect.
Yeah, that's, that's reallytrue. Um, alright, so, uh, if,

(22:06):
alright, I've got two sides of this coin,
and so I'm gonna give you the coin andthen you can approach it however you
want. All right. On, on, on oneside of the coin, um, you know,
we're taking these, uh, these,these thinner hits, I'll say.
Um, and, and you know,
you say sometimes they, they'llactually get as higher, right?

(22:27):
But then on the other sideof that coin are many people,
when they first start vaping,
they feel like one hit isnot as satisfying for them and they don't get as high.
And so they're all like, well, youknow, I need to take like, you know,
two hits, uh, or three hits of my,
my flower vaporizer toget the same feedback

(22:49):
as I would from my bong. Um, yeah.
But then also some days youjust go and you have, you know,
one hit of the vaporizer andyou've got this like really like
speedy, bright sativa kind of higheven potentially from, you know,
um, a non equatorial plan, right? Thatsomething that that's more merc rich. So,

(23:11):
so what, what I'd like you to kindof just speak to is this idea of,
of the hits being thinner, andso we have to take more of 'em.
And yet the misnomer in that that like,we actually can get, get wicked high,
wicked fast from vaporizerstoo. Like, like how,
like as somebody who studiesthe technology and the, and,

(23:32):
and the user experience, how doyou kind of resolve those ?
Because they're all true, right?
? Yeah. They're all,they're all true. Uh, yeah.
So for the same, let's,let's put some boundaries on,
on where we go with this. Fairenough. That sounds good. Um,
so for the same amount of herb, um, uh,

(23:53):
I will claim, and I think researchbacks me up on this, that, uh,
you will get higher if you completelyvaporize the same amount of herb,
um, as smoking, but it'sover, as you mentioned,
over far more hits, I guess, um,
maybe you, you know,double or triple the hits.

(24:16):
So that's one aspect of it. Um, yeah.
And yet paradoxically, it's,it's more effective. So, uh,
the where I'm actually going iswhen you first load a fresh bowl,
um, with a vaporizer, uh, you, wehaven't talked about decarb it yet,
and decarboxylation doesn't take placeimmediately like it does with fire.

(24:41):
And so your early poles, um,
are going to evaporatesome of the T H C A without
necessarily converting it, um,to thc. Interesting. And so,
yes,
your first couple of polesare probably going to feel
a little thinner and maybe not affectyou, but that third, fourth, fifth,

(25:04):
sixth are going to be fully decarb and,
and a lot more intense.
You know, that's so obvious. But Ihave never thought of that before. Huh.
That's really interesting. So, soI hear that two different ways.
Number one,
I like it because if my first hitsare going to be offering me more T

(25:25):
H C A C B, G A C B D A,right? Then my latter hits,
that means I'm gonna get all theseacid forms of the plant which are
healthy and good for me. Yep.
But the longer it stays in thevaporization chamber, the heating chamber,
the the cannabinoids will bechanging to the non-acid versions.

(25:47):
And so I'm getting a,
perhaps a wider array ofthat. And, and for, for,
and for the listeners who are not, um,familiar with decarb decarboxylation,
um,
essentially what you need todo to make THC and intoxicants
is that you have to heat it toa certain point that change,

(26:07):
it changes it from an acid to anon-acid. And when, and you know,
when we normally smokebowls or, um, smoke joints,
there's so much fire in, in thatjoint that it happens instantly.
But as Mark was talkingabout earlier, we're not,
we're not burning at a thousand degrees,
we're talking about morelike a couple hundred.

(26:27):
And so that process doesn'thappen instantly. Um, right.
So then the second thing I'm thinking,
not only am I happy about getting allthese acid forms of the cannabinoids on
the flip side, if I am dollar conscious,
that's gonna really annoy the hell outof me because I could see that as wasting
cannabinoids. Because if I'm, if I'mmoney conscious and I'm trying to get,

(26:51):
you know, the most bang formy buck, I want to get high,
I actually will be disappointedthat I'm smoking T H C
A, um, like the first hit or two. So itreally it really is different,
um, consumer to consumer.
Yeah. I think, um, I, I havenever experienced disappointment,

(27:11):
uh, with flower vaporization. I'll justsay Shang, go . Um, and, uh,
you through vaporization, and again,
when we get into the mechanics of,of different kinds of modes of,
of vaporization, um, you know, we cansee how they'll behave differently.
But, uh, often you, unlike with fire, um,

(27:33):
when you're combusting, you'vegot a lot of sidestream,
you've got a lot of wastage,and with many vaporizers, um,
certainly the, the morereputable ones, uh,
you are not heat actually heating thecannabis when you're not inhaling.
And so, uh, the, your bowlgoes a lot, lot longer. Um,

(27:55):
and from an efficiency standpoint,
you're the over the overall amountof product that you are going to be
purchasing in a month to, uh, manageyour health and wellbeing, um,
is likely to drop significantly.
I see. So it's a, it's a much more, uh,complex algorithm than I was giving, uh,

(28:16):
credit to it. Also, as far as likethe wastage goes, um, it's, it's,
uh,
it's always noticed how muchsmaller the heating compartments are
on, uh,
vaporizers as they are like fromyour hand blown glass slide. True.
That can take, you know, a thumbsized gram nug in it, right?

(28:37):
And then you go over to your vape andit's asking you to take like, you know,
one 10th 10th of that. Yeah.One 10th of that and then,
and then grind it and then put it inthere. It, it, it usually looks like a, a,
a paucity is, I think that'sthe right use of that word.
It looks like such a small amount ofweed. Um, but then, and then, but then,
you know, still gets you high. And soit's, it's confusing. It's less weed,

(28:58):
it gets you high,
but you need to take more hits andthen you're getting a lot more T H C A,
but over time you're, you're wastingless. So it's actually budgetary smart.
Yes. . Damn. I think you nailed it.
. Oh man. Alright.
So, um, alright, so let,let's, let's wrap this up.
So I wanted to start this first setwith, um, you know, conversations about,

(29:22):
you know, the why of it kind ofgenerally, but, um, no doubt,
I know I have invited anengineer here. So, um,
we're gonna go and take a commercialbreak and then when we come back we're
gonna, uh, get into a moreserious discussion about, uh, the engineering behind,
um, the popular varieties of, ofvapes and go through some, uh,

(29:42):
oil vaping solutions and flower vapingsolutions and really get into the
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Welcome back. You are listening toShaping Fire. I am your host, Shang Golos,
and my guest today isaerospace engineer Mark Lewis.
So during the first set wetalked about why we vape, uh,
what the in cannabis enthusiastexperience is, and, uh, you know,

(35:59):
some of the, some of the challengesand work throughs for those.
But we're gonna get into more of the nittygritty of the engineering behind, um,
uh, both flour and oil vaporizers now. Um,
both so that you can, you know,just be a little deeper on this,
this very important aspect ofthe, you know, cannabis culture.
But also this should help providea, a bit of a, uh, you know,

(36:22):
a shopping guide for you as you, um,you know, as, as you learn about the,
the different types of vaporizers. And,
and you can figure out what whatyou might be interested in, uh,
should you decide to pick oneup. So Mark, you know, you know,
there's a lot of different approachesdesigning vaporizers and there are so many
coming out on the marketall the time now. Um, and,

(36:43):
and we're gonna talk aboutflower vapes and first,
and then vaping oils second because,
because they really arelike different things. So,
so let's talk about flower vapes. So like,
do flower vapes fall neatly into a fewdifferent categories so that we can
kind of bunch 'em up and talk about them?
Or is there so much for a variabilitymodel to model that we have to like,

(37:06):
take 'em one by one, God help us.
. Well, not all vaporizers arecreated equal for sure. Shang, go. Um,
and when it comes to flower vaporizers,there are two primary categories.
Uh,
and those are convection based vaporizersand conduction VA based vaporizers.
Now, uh,
anyone who's stood around a campfire hasalso experienced radiant heat before,

(37:30):
and that's, you know, heat transferat a distance, if you will. And,
um, some vaporizers, uh, mightinclude that. And that is certainly a,
an effect that, uh, impacts sortof the, the internal working of,
of, uh, of a vaporizer.To summarize, you know,

(37:50):
just briefly the differentiationbetween the two modes, um, conduction.
And honestly, I'm gonna encourage youto not be necessarily that brief. Right?
Okay. Like, like we don't necessarilyneed to do a dissertation,
but this conduction versusconve convection thing that I think that you're about
to wade into, like this is key,right? So Right, right. So, so,
so take your time so that we can allpick up on this cuz just the fact that

(38:14):
conduction and convection are so similarimmediately confuses people right out
of the gates. And so, so like, so liketake your time because I think this is,
this is a chunky bit.
Sure, sure. Okay. Well, you know,
in short conduction is a heattransfer through touch, right?
So if you are a, a conductionbased vaporizer has an oven,

(38:37):
it has a chamber, uh, eithermade of metal or ceramic,
and you place your herb in,
in that and the vaporizerheats up that oven.
Um, and so your herb isbeing heated through the,
from the walls of that littleoven of that chamber. Um,
and that's conduction. So it'sbeing heated largely by touch.

(39:00):
Uh,
a convection based vaporizer is sort oflike a convection oven or an air fryer.
You're heating up the airand then that is being, uh,
transported or pulled orpushed through your herb. Um,
and that hot air then extracts, uh,
or evaporates the, uh, various compounds.

(39:23):
So conduction is actually yourflower touching the heating
piece and convectionis somewhere up the up
the chamber, the, the,
the air is being heated and then you'resucking that hot heat towards the flower
and the heat is touching the flowerinstead of the metal or the thic.

(39:45):
Right? The air is flowing through,
the hot air is flowing through andevaporating, um, the compounds,
the volatile compounds.
Okay. And then the third kindwas radiant where, um, there is,
there is, uh, some kind ofdevice that's, that's, uh,
itself just hot andyou're, I'm putting it in,
in general proximity, but it's not, it's,

(40:07):
it's neither touchingthe flower nor far away.
Right. Right.
Okay. Um,
so can you give us a littlebit of explanation on the
conduction convectiontimeline? Because, you know,
I know that generally speaking peopleconsider one better than the other. But,

(40:28):
but I would like you to justkind of, um, explain the, the,
the beginning of vaporizersdesign, what was first and then,
and then how they'vekind of evolved and, and,
and while not everybody likesthe same kind of vaporizers,
kind of where the people areresponding in the market.

(40:49):
Yeah. Uh, I think the earliestvaporizers that I'm aware of are,
are certainly, um, you know, theyplayed around in the seventies with,
with heat guns, um, and, uh, you know,
just delivering the hot air, uh,
that evolved to some of thewhip based, um, vaporizers,

(41:09):
like the Vapor Brothers,the early boxes with, uh, I.
Still have my vapor robbers whip box man.
. Yeah. And, uh, you know,Bert there, he's, hes Wizard,
he's one of the grandfathers of, of,uh, vaporizers. He's a really good guy,
understands all of this. Um, thosewere, were largely convection based,
um, vaporizers,

(41:29):
so they were heating the air and itwas flowing through your herb. Um,
now when it started tomove to more portable, uh,
kind of devices, it's a loteasier to manufacture in small,
um, you know, compact designs, uh,
to engineer a conductionbased vaporizer. Um,

(41:50):
so to heat up the oven, throwyour herb in that oven, um,
something on the market, a a cup,some of the ones like the packs,
um, is, is largely aconduction based vaporizer.
And so how we want,
how will picture that is that all ofthese various vaporizers where it's got
some kind of little lid and, uh, youput your flower in there and it's,

(42:15):
it's actually, you know,touching it against, um,
steel or ceramic and then you'reputting the, the top back on, um,
they all kind of fall in the same categoryno matter what they look like. Uh.
There's a sizable portion, um,
but there's others on the marketthat are hybrids and, and do,

(42:36):
uh, a lot of the heatingof the air, uh, you know,
the crafty and mighty by stores andbeckel. Um, they will, you know,
heat the air, uh, but there's also aconduction component to their design.
So some of the heat, you know,
is transmitted up to the walls ofthe chamber as well. So they're, uh,
both introducing hot air as wellas conduction from the sides. Um,

(43:01):
and, uh, trying to then get an even, uh,
vaporization of all the products.
That's a good point for me tonot be over generalizing and,
and make it look like they'rethe, these are really such, um,
separated uh, solutions. Because,because you're right. You know,
like everybody is in, isinventing and trying to find the,

(43:25):
the technology blend that worksbest for their product. And, and,
and so anybody who's gonna buy one,
make sure you understand the onethat you wanna get directly and not,
you know, just something verygeneral that you, you know,
that you read generallyabout conduction or whatever.
Right? Right. Mm-hmm. .
Alright, I interruptedyou. Please continue.

(43:48):
Um, well, I was gonna say just to,to highlight some of the differences.
When you actually have, uh, a hot, um,
hot material touching your herb,uh, you have a danger of burning it,
right?
Because they have to compensateby delivering a lot more thermal
energy through the walls inorder to have it than, um,

(44:12):
cook, if you will, the herb that'sin the middle of the chamber.
So you have a much higherlikelihood of over roasting, um,
your herb and getting that kindof burnt popcorn taste that, uh,
some people complain about.
I do not care for the toasty.
No, no, I'm a light roast kind ofguy. Light roast. There you go.

(44:33):
Uh, so, so you, so if, if you'regoing to get, um, you know,
more of an opportunity of thetoastiness with conduction, um,
uh,
you would not get that withconvection because the heated air
is coming in contact with your,
the entirety of your flowermass at the same time, right?

(44:54):
Uh, correct. Um, well, it's,it's impacting the, the,
wherever the inlet side is, it's gettinga blast of the heated air, you know,
first that that particular, uh,
part of the herb is going to getthe heat blast first. Mm-hmm.
But then it's going to be pulledthrough, uh, your herb. Now, uh,

(45:14):
in a convection based vaporizer,
you can also pump up the powerso much that, uh, you do,
you know, over roast it as well.
So if you're up at combustionlevel temperatures for that air,
it will certainly combust on you,
but most vaporizers try to avoid that.
Mm-hmm. , well, you,
you would really need to have yourtemp like really cranked up at that.

(45:35):
Point. You would've to haveit cranked up. Yeah. Yeah.
All right. So let's go back to yourtimeline that you were giving us. Um,
you know, you gave, you talked to us aboutthe box vapes and then the, you know,
the first I'll say realbreakthrough, um, you know,
to the consumer market vapeof the packs. Um, and then,
and then things continue on toconventions. So please, please pick it up.

(45:58):
Uh, yeah,
well I think a lot of the things thatyou're seeing on the market now are
variations, uh, of a verysimilar approach. Um, uh,
a lot of vaporizers are trying to, um,
portray flexibility, uh, throughincorporation of different, uh, apps,
um, you know, so that you can controlthe, the temperature settings. Uh, and,

(46:21):
and we can talk about, you know, ,
whether or not they can actually dothat or not. Um, most vaporizers, uh,
are able to, you can seta particular setting, um,
and vary those with an app or directlythrough the button control. Um, let's.
Go ahead and have that conversation now.
Cause I was gonna ask you that in twoquestions anyway. You know, these,

(46:42):
these temp controls, and I,
I know we're kind of like talkingabout the entirety of the market,
so that's not really fair.But generally speaking,
are these temp controls to bebelieved because, um, you know,
un unless I'm paying a good penny,you know, for a vape and, you know,
getting like a, you know, stores inBickle or something, uh, I'm pretty,

(47:02):
I'm pretty suspicious of these,
these temperatures that I'm being toldthat they're heating at for anything that
I'm paying under 200 bucks for.
Yeah, I, I I think you're rightto be suspicious, um, on that, uh,
for a couple of reasons. Um, somedon't actually use a thermal couple,
you know, a, a a,
a sensor that feeds backthe actual temperature.

(47:25):
And then moreover, I think the,the biggest thing is, well,
think about a regular oven.You heat it to 350 degrees,
but as soon as you open thedoor to put your cookies in, um,
then it drops a considerableamount and the same with a vaporizer.
So as soon it might heatit to a steady state,
but as soon as you start pulling coolair in, that's going to vary the, uh,

(47:49):
the actual temperature of the airflowand the vapor that you're experiencing.
Now,
the good side of thetemperature settings that
on a particular vaporizeris that you'll probably get
relative consistency fromone session to another, um,

(48:10):
regardless of whether it's actuallytrue. Mm-hmm. . Um, so,
so that can still be a very,
very beneficial kind of attribute toa vaporizer so that you can be able to
dial in the experience that youwant from one session to another.
Right on. I, I buy that. I thinkthat makes a lot of sense. So,
so even though on some of thelesser, um, expensive vapes,

(48:33):
the, uh, the temps maybe notbe accurate to, you know,
the number that they say it is. Um,
but at least it's gonna besame from session to session.
So once you find out the, youknow, where you like it, um,
it'll be able to hit thatmark consistently. Yeah. Yeah,
that makes a lot of sense. I likethat. Um, so let, let's talk about the,

(48:54):
the grinding part, right? Mm-hmm.. Um, so, you know,
historically a lot of people don't, um,
grind flour for a bowl. Um, uh,
many people will grindflour to roll a joint,
though my mentor hated grinders andbelieved it always had to be done
by scissors. Um, but I thinkthat was because he, um,

(49:18):
he was always collecting seeds, soI'm not sure about that. Um, but, but,
but when it comes to, youknow, grinding, you know,
every book that you getwith your vaporizer says to,
uh, grind the flower so youget a more even experience.
Will you speak to that?
Mm, yeah. Uh,

(49:41):
I really don't like grinders,but it's true. Uh, on,
on, well, there's pros andcons, let's just say. Yeah.
Break it down. Tell us.
Let's break it down. Uh, whenyou actually grind your herb,
you are changing the particleside and making some uniform
consistency in the, uh,
when you pack your materialinto your vaporizer.

(50:05):
And so that can be very beneficialto get even flow similar to grinding
coffee, right? You can't make coffeewith whole beans , you know,
you have to have to grind it.And for different coffee makers,
you grind it to different sizes.
So it's a similar analog for,
for flower vaporizers too. Uh,

(50:28):
grinding will certainly give youthat consistency, uh, of the,
of the pack, if you will, orthe puck as I call it,
cuz it comes out as a puckonce you've used it. Um,
but I don't really like the,
what happens to my trichomes. Um,
I don't want to go chasing after keefand then reintroduce it to, uh, the bowl.

(50:52):
Um, so I prefer actually tochop my, my herb directly in,
into the chamber or to the bowl. Um, when.
You say chop, do you mean like, uh,like finger separation or scissors?
I, I actually just use fingersto pluck small, you know, uh,
small size. And then I, I have a,
have a tiny little sharp knife that,uh, that I poke it with mm-hmm.

(51:16):
and, and teaseit around and, and get it to a,
a fairly uniform consistency.So that's, that's my method,
but everybody has their ownkind of method, but I like to keep my trichomes, um,
with the rest of my herb.
Yeah. And,
and I guess some of that also dependson what kind of a grinder you're using,
right? Totally. If you're not using thekeefe attachment, um, it stays with it.

(51:37):
The part about the grinders thatI haven't really cared for is,
is this smearing of all the trichomesand Absolutely. And then like cleaning,
cleaning them off of the grinder. Youknow, if, you know, back, back when I was,
you know, younger, that seemed likea lot of waste. Completely. I mean,
it still seems like a lot of waste,but I have, I have plenty of weed now,
you know, I'm unlike when I wasyounger. Totally. And, um, but,

(52:01):
uh, for me the, the main advantageof the grind is to get that,
um,
nice even pull and to know that I am not
wasting the, the tricombs that are, um,
on the interior of the little bud lits,let's say, that are in there. Right.
Um, am I correct in myassumption that the,

(52:26):
the hot air
and the conductive walls of the oven,
neither of those will vaporize a trichome
that is caught on the interiorof a dense budd little piece?
Uh, yes. In general, um,

(52:48):
the , it really depends on thesize, right? Mm-hmm. , uh,
of, of what you're dealing with there. Um,
I would say that, uh, yes,it's, it's more efficient to,
to actually grind your urban to be ableto access those internal trichomes.
I'll just leave it at that. Yeah. I mean this is.

(53:09):
This is clearly personal preference,right? Right. So, so you, you,
you gave good reasons why you're, youknow, on your side and, and I did as well,
and you and I all both have plentyof weed , but to some,
somebody else whose decision matrixmight be slightly different. Well,
I want them to be able to get theinformation they need too. Right?
Totally. Totally. I, I.
Have, I know lots of peoplewho have opinions who,

(53:29):
who I need more than justtheir opinion because I, I I,
I wanna un I wanna kind of understandthe whole area so I can make my opinion.
Right. Right. What I tend to do, I mean,again, this is my personal preference,
is, you know, when you have those smallnuggets, you are correct that the,
the internal trichomes don'timmediately, um, aren't accessible to,

(53:50):
to the hot air. Um, uh,what I tend to do is,
is open the chamber back up and crushit, and then release all of those things.
I see.
Once, once, once you've hit ita couple times and it's dry.
Then it's dried and it willthen fall apart readily and you
Yeah. And then you've got your even, uh,

(54:10):
distribution then of particlesand it's, uh, more efficient.
Right.
On the next thing I was gonna ask youwas the reg recommendation that most of
these, these companies have to stir.Yeah. And, uh, and so, you know,
usually somewhere around, I don't know,hit four or five, they say, oh, pop,
pop, pop it open and give ita little stir. And oh my God,

(54:32):
it just kills me how,
how often I see somebody using a penwith ink on the end to do that .
And I'm all like,
you're not even thinking about whatyou're putting on your err dude ,
but it's way too common.But anyway, then they,
then they close it up andcontinue on and, um, you know,
do you think thatstirring is, is effective?
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh,almost all vaporizers have,

(54:56):
um, you know, with theairflow going through,
you're not going to get evenheating of, of your herbs.
So stirring it just means you're,
you're moving the sort of the unspentparticles around moving the oils
around so that they can beefficiently vaporized. So I,
I strongly encourage stirring, if youwant to get the most out of your herb,

(55:17):
if you're feeling kinda lazy and,and you have got a, you know,
an abundance of herb available,then, you know, whatever you want.
Right on if you're feeling,if you're feeling lazy or wealthy. Um.
Right.
. So, so at what point wouldyou recommend this stirring? Um,
I usually stir when I, when I taste thetoast for the first time. Right. But I,
I also suspect that I'm, I'm,I'm one hit late at that point.

(55:41):
Yeah. Uh, it, it reallyis a personal preference,
so you can stir every pole, which isa pain in the butt. Yeah. But, um,
yeah, every three or four poles, you know.
I've never tried ever everypole. I ha like that, that,
that sounds like so muchwork, but it's, I I should,
I should do it for theexperience for sure.

(56:02):
So that I can weigh all this properly.
Yeah. I would never doit. Every poll .
Um, you know, we, we talked on thefirst set about how, um, you know,
cloud hits are different with vapes,
and yet sometimes you do pull cloudsand sometimes you do pull bigger

(56:23):
flavorful hits, even ifthere is no cloud. And, um,
in my experience,
whatever cloudness I'm going to get froma vaporizer is improved with stirring.
What are your thoughts? Yeah.
I, I can see that. Yeah. Uh, and again,
I think that once you're intopole two or three, you've, um,

(56:46):
you know, you, you have decarb,you have warmed the bowl,
you have removed any,uh, of the residual, um,
sort of moisture in the urban,and so they just, it just becomes,
the whole system becomesa lot more efficient, you know, three or four poles in,
and so you are going toget, uh, more, you know,

(57:07):
bigger clouds more easily at that point.
All right. So, um, so,uh, let's, let's move on.
Unless you've got anything else to sayhere. Let's move on to oil vapes. Yeah.
Well.
Let, let me talk, just Yeah,please briefly about a couple,
couple of other things.Excellent. Um, here,
one is that we haven't talkedabout sort of the exhaust,
what happens to the vapor afterit's moved through your herb.

(57:31):
And, um,
frequently another thing to lookat in a vaporizer is how much
accumulates, you know, inthat vapor pathway. Uh, some,
some, uh, vaporizers on the markets,and I'm not gonna call them out, but,
you know, claim for an allglass pathway. Uh, well,

(57:51):
glass actually is, is a fairlyconductive material. Um,
it tends to be cool. So we,
we have this perception that wewant to cool the vapor. Well,
once we cool the vapor,
you've got those oils that arethen condensing in that pathway.
And the way you can tell, you know,
sort of how efficient the vaporizer is,

(58:14):
is how much gunk you have toclean out and how often, um,
so another sort of buying decision isto look at, you know, just how much, uh,
you know, what happens to the vaporafter it goes through the herb. Um,
are you having to frequently cleanit? Well then that's not really,
you're not getting the maximum benefitfrom your vapor. Mm-hmm. .

(58:34):
So I wanted to say that. Um,
and then one of the othersort of controversies or questions that are out there
is, is how, how much do youpack in your chamber? You know,
how do you press it down?Do you, uh, crush it? Um,
how dense do you, do you pack it in? Um,

(58:55):
and my take on this from a sort ofaeronautic science kind of
direction is that for convection based,
so the ones that are using the hotair for a convection based vaporizer
tamp it down, so pressit down and compress it.
It's similar to what you do with anespresso shot. You're removing any,

(59:17):
um,
sort of easy channels for the air toflow past your herb rather than through
it. And air will always findthe path of least resistance.
So if you have those channelsand the larger buds in there,
then it's gonna flow past ratherthan through, um, your herb.
So definitely compress it, uh, down,

(59:37):
and it creates what'sknown as back pressure,
which is similar to a carb cap ona dab rig. It lowers the pressure,
um, right there at the herb andit will vaporize more efficiently.
Wow. I'm really glad thatyou went back for that. Um,
not only is that interesting,but I do it wrong. You know,
I noticed it earlier whenyou said, um, you know,

(59:58):
when you take the puck out of yourvape, right? Right. And I'm all like,
I'm all like, man, I don't, Idon't, I don't have pucks, ,
it's just like, it just comesout as like slightly brown
ground up weeds still, you know,uhhuh. Um, and, and in my head,
I,
I wanted to leave a littlebreathing room so that the hot air

(01:00:21):
could easily be, be drawn through it,
but now I understandfrom your analysis that,
that I'm doing it exactly wrongbecause by my leaving it somewhat loose
in there, even though that does make iteasier for the stirring, uh, step, that,
um,
that I am cre I'm allowingeasy vapor paths that

(01:00:43):
that will be preferred by thephysics of the inhalation,
when really I wanna press it down sothat there's all these multitude of,
variety of paths that are being taken.
For a convection based vaporizersYeah. For a convection. So for,
for a conduction basedvaporizer or like a DAV app,
which is the really innovativedesign, right? Mm-hmm. ,

(01:01:05):
I like those basic Yeah. They're looklike, I mean, they, they replicate the,
the notion of smoking. So it's like a,it's a smoke like experience, right? Uh,
but there are largely a conductionbased, uh, you know, vaporizer in,
in that regard, the, the metalheats up, right? For, for,
for something like that, or thepacks, um, I, which many people have,

(01:01:28):
I would say a,
a looser pack is probably betterbecause you're heating from the walls.
So how does the heat thentransfer? If it's really dense?
The heat is not gonna be transportedthrough your herb because your herb itself
is, has low conductivity, wood and plants.
They don't conduct heat very well. Um,

(01:01:50):
whereas then the air that's moving throughthere, you want it to circulate and,
and the heat to then move into thecenter of, of that chamber. So, um,
for a conduction based vaporizer, Iwould pack it a little more loosely.
You know, it's interesting too, to hiton the dine of app one more time. Um, uh,
I, I, I have owned one and the one I have,

(01:02:13):
I've only ever used it with, uh,my butane torch. Right, right.
And that's an interesting experience tohear the little crack sound and then,
and then know that it's time to takeyour hit all. That's very interesting.
I'm not a super big fan of using thetorches in general though. Right. Um,
but then my buddy Michael, you know,
he came over and he is like a totaldi of va like fanboy. Like he, well,

(01:02:36):
actually, he kind of is just like avaporizing scientist, actually. He,
you know, until, until I met you,
he pretty much knew more thananybody I knew about him. And, um,
and so he got this, uh,
he got this desktop thing thatDinova has got where it's like you,
you plug it in and you can justkind of put the pipe into it and,
and it acts kind of like, um, it,

(01:02:59):
it transfers electric energy toit, and it's very convenient.
Like an email is, and then, and thenyou just take it out and you hit it.
And it's, it's so muchmore elegant. And it's,
it's interesting that it is aproduct that has multiple, um,
heating mechanisms because reallythat's pretty uncommon to have multiple

(01:03:19):
heating mechanisms for one vape system.
Yeah. I, I,
I really am impressed with the sortof the engineering background of,
of the dine of app andwhat they're doing. I,
I believe that's an induction basedheating, um, sort of block that you,
you drop it in, and so it usesinduction to then heat, um,
it up to the perfect temperature. So,uh, I think that's pretty fantastic.

(01:03:43):
Excellent. All right. Are youready to move on to oil now?
Sure.
All right. So, so as kindof like a bridge place,
let's just give a little bit of ashout out to those flower vaporizers
who really, really wanna be oilvaporizers too, . And so, um,
you know, they will, they will have likelittle solutions like, um, you know,

(01:04:03):
oh, I've, I've got a littlecup and you can, you know, you,
you can take your oil and put it in thecup and then drop it into the flower
chamber or Right. Um, or, or, youknow, we've, we've got this, you know,
specialty screen or a sponge,you can put your oil in that,
and then we'll put it into the flowervaporizer and, and, you know, those can,
um, people can definitelyfind effectiveness with those.

(01:04:28):
But I think that across the board,
it's really hard to make one vaporizer
that's best for all solutions.And, and like, if you only,
if you're only gonna buy one and youneed one that does both, that's like,
there are definitely some goodsolutions out there. But, um, you know,
going all the way back tothe, the, the original packs,

(01:04:48):
like little cup that wasin there, you know, I,
I got mine assuming that it was gonnabe an oil vape and a flour vape,
but that little, that,that little cup just,
it didn't really work out over time.
Didn't, didn't really work. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So, so whatare, what are your thoughts on,
on these vapes that try to straddle?
Well, I think that whenit comes to vaporization,

(01:05:11):
um, of, of an oil, it's all abouttrying to maximize your surface area.
And so when we're dealing with flour,it's great because the flour fibers,
uh, wick the oils and distribute themacross the, across the fibers. And it,
it's pretty easy.
So one way of experiencingoils or concentrates, uh,

(01:05:33):
would be to just drop it on or mix itin with your, with your flour. And,
and that can be a prettyeffective way of using, uh,
the flour vaporizers to experience oil.
But then you've got a mix andyou're not getting that purity, um,
that a lot of people who dab areseeking, um, from, from their extracts.
And so the, um, just, I'mgonna do a little bit on the,

(01:05:57):
because I spent a couple of years tryingto find a solution to this. Yeah, yeah.
With oils, and most of the vaporizers,
the flower vaporizers in themarket use a stainless steel
kind of Brillo pad, if you will. Um, they,
it's just a bunch of stainless steel wirethat's been compressed into a little,

(01:06:20):
you know, shaped puck or disc that thengets dropped into the, the chamber.
Um, the challenge with that is that, uh,
metal will warm up and not reach, uh,
the vaporizationtemperatures very readily.
So while it's warmingup your thick oil or,

(01:06:40):
or concentrate your wax orshatter is going to start melting,
and it's gonna travel alongthat, uh, along those wires.
And oftentimes before you reachthe vaporization temperatures,
it's gonna start flowing into the restof your unit and you're get get that
gunk everywhere. Um, so no, most, most,

(01:07:03):
uh, that try to do bothare, are not very effective.
Um.
How many of us have had that experienceearly in our token career where, um,
we try to put, you know,
a ball of bubble hash orsomething into our bong with, uh,
with a screen and, and we're warmingit up, and as we're warming it up,
we're seeing it like, slide down theslide on the glass and you're like,

(01:07:27):
you're like, I, I only got one hitoff of that. And now it's all like,
now it's all recla. Yeah. It's allinside of the bong. Ugh. That's,
it's.
Sad. That's disappointing .Yeah. It's very disappointing,
but it's similar. I mean, that's exactlywhat's happening inside the vaporizer,
and then you end up having to cleanit out and, and that's no fun.
Nobody likes doing dishes.
, you have verygood point. Um, alright,

(01:07:49):
so let's talk more about like oil vapingsolutions that are specifically for it.
Let, this really isn't gonna bea long show on carts. Right. But,
but let's do talk about just, um,
the idea behind the carts andhow they function. Um, uh,
but carts could be like their ownshow, you know, so Right, right.
So if you would just explain themechanics of carts, um, that'll be great.

(01:08:11):
Yeah. I mean, basically youhave, uh, carts are, are a very
interesting and efficient, right.Um, they're very convenient. Uh,
the oil basically is, uh, you know,
is in the cartridge and thenthere's a heating element. Um,
oftentimes there's a wickor a wicking mechanism to

(01:08:34):
make sure that the oil gets transferredto the, to that heating element,
um, or to a hot ceramic,uh, that then, uh,
locally basically boils the oil locally.
And so that then, uh,
that vapor then istransmitted and, uh, you know,

(01:08:58):
through the mouthpieceand aerosolized. Um,
one thing I learned recently is that, uh,
part of the design of, of manycartridges is actually to introduce,
uh, an external, theyhave little air holes,
and that is to make surethat the vapor is less

(01:09:20):
dense, um,
and that it coalesces back into anaerosol rather than staying in fine
particulate form. And that wasalways, that fascinated me.
Part of that is to increasesort of the cloud production,
but also to make it a little easier onyour lungs and to cool it a little bit

(01:09:40):
before it enters your lungs.
Mm-hmm. , I, youknow, as, as far, you know,
we're really gonna focuson, on non-car vapes, but,
but since we're right here, I think thatit's important for us to say, you know,
whatever your preference is in, youknow, what you want in your vape. Like,
you know, I'm a big fanof hash razin personally,

(01:10:01):
but I certainly have got respectedfriends who like properly purged b h o for
flavor. And, you know, there's,there, there's a wide range of,
of what you can put in the vape.
The only thing I want to beclear on is to know your source,
because there is a lot of garbagethat can be put in the vapes. Um, and,

(01:10:22):
and it, it was weird in the early days,
people didn't really know whatwas best to put in the vape.
So people tried everythingfrom, you know, uh,
coconut oil to vegetable glisterand all these different things. And,
and, and God help us. We madeit through. Yeah. And, and,
and so now we know mostly we,we don't wanna be, you know,

(01:10:42):
adding non-cannabis
constituents. Um, but then
the ones in the,
in the licensed market are often soexpensive for lots of people that,
that they tend to buy them cheaperin the unlicensed market. And then,

(01:11:04):
then we're back to the problem of, ohGod, what the hell's in it? .
Right. And so, um, you know, whatever,whatever your oil preference,
dear listener, um, you know, know,know your source because we want,
we don't want you to get, you know, somekind of serious lung issue from Right.
Uh, from using some sketchy stuff.
Right. And, and to, for, froma functionality perspective,

(01:11:26):
you have to have somethingadded to the cannabis oil or it
won't flow well. Right.
So there's a degree of, uh, of flow that,
that enters into the design, uh,
and requires something tokind of cut or thin, um,
the oil to make it functionproperly. Now, one of the,

(01:11:49):
go ahead. Go ahead.
Is that always the case though? CauseI really thought that the, that like,
the big breakthrough in the lastlike 18 months is people being able
to press hash rosin at a viscosity, um,
that they can put in, in these,
these new vapes and not haveto have any adulterant at all

(01:12:10):
to it. And I, I thought thatwas true. Is that not accurate?
I, I don't know. Shango. Okay. Fair,fair enough. Stop. Yeah. Fair enough.
Fair enough. I, I haven't seen thosedesigns yet. Um, and that's exciting.
If it is, um,
one of the cautions that I would say forpeople with, uh, the cartridge based,
uh, vaporizers, because atleast I experienced this, um,

(01:12:34):
and that is that throat burnmm-hmm. , um, that often happens. And,
and it's easy to think thatthat's temperature, but I,
I don't believe that that'swhat's really happening. Um,
any time that you drop, let's say, uh,
if you've done Chinese cooking or,or dropped, you know, hot oil onto,

(01:12:55):
or oil onto a really hot pan mm-hmm., that's like red hot, right?
Uh, you get, um,
a lot of you convertthose oils fairly rapidly
into other compounds thatare thicker and are, uh,
polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Youknow, well said, they become,

(01:13:17):
uh, worse, they become bad shit, youknow, is, is really what happens there.
So anytime you're, uh,
really putting the oil in the presenceof something that's super hot, um,
it's going to alter the chemicalstructures of those compounds.
And so that's what I believe,uh, the throat burn is due to.

(01:13:39):
Um, at least that's my, my,
my armchair science background on that.
I'll take it. And, and also,damn if that's true, uh, that,
that explains why so many people haveturned away from cartridges and gone to
some of these other solutions,um, like the Puffco Peak,
which we're gonna talk about in asecond. But, but before we do, um,

(01:13:59):
so do you consider anemail vaping or combustion?
I would say it's a, it's a form ofvaporization. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Right.
And I was wondering if it had to dowith like the temp, because you know,
certainly we, we do, we we dosee smoke from it, right. And,
and, but we don't ever seefire. Um, and so I was kind of,

(01:14:24):
of this idea myself, cause I'veused an email for years that,
that at my lowertemperatures as a vaporizer,
but at higher temperaturesit's combustion.
But that might be like the mostnon-science thing I've said today.
. Well, if you'reexperiencing a, again,
you can alter the chemical compositionwithout it being combustion.
So at high temperatures, when youpass the smoke point of an oil,

(01:14:48):
you start altering thechemical composition,
and that can feel likecombustion, right. Um,
it's a, it's a harsher effect. Andso when your nail is, is super hot,
um, uh,
largely it will leadto that kind of a thing.
So there's been a lot of movement to the,

(01:15:09):
to the cold start dabbing or lowtemperature dabbing. Yeah. Um,
and emails have certainly helpedthat, uh, quite a bit, um, to,
to dial in the, thetemperatures more precisely.
Right on. Um, so, um, so we'regonna, next, let's talk about the,
the, the Puffco peak, which, um, you know,
stands out as being, you know,

(01:15:31):
one of the most cherished,uh, instruments, um,
you know, in the oil community, you know,it's, it's, um, it's convenience and,
and the fact that you, you know,you were talking about the, um,
oh, surface area, right? Right. Andone of the great things is they,
they've got these, you know, their,
their bowls are great and they'repretty evenly heated throughout it.

(01:15:54):
And so you've got a lot of space at oncethat's in contact with the oil at the
same time. And, and, you know, I, Iguess I wanna be clear that, you know,
Puffco is not like a sponsoror anything, you know,
o other people like the focus,uh, Carta, right? So like,
I'm talking more about the designmm-hmm. where it, it,
it looks like a bong and, andyou've got this, this wide bowl and,

(01:16:16):
and then it's heated, and then whenyou put your concentrate on there,
um, you're, you're gonna get a,
a large vapor hit at once becauseof all the surface area. Um, do,
do you like how I'm explainingthe science behind that? Is that,
is that how you see it too?
Yeah. Yeah. I have not had a ton ofexperience with the Puff Coat, but it's,

(01:16:37):
you know, sexy af, right? I mean, it is,it is , you know, let's face it,
it, it, uh, hits all theright, uh, notes, I think for,
for being a fantastic productand, um, you know, and it,
and it can really deliver for thosepeople who want that experience. So yeah,
it's pretty revolutionaryfrom an email perspective.

(01:16:57):
And, you know, they got a lot of crapover in, in the early years because there,
there were some models that went outwith some, you know, failing components,
which they've, they've, I guessthey've figured out over the years,
because I haven't heard people complecompare, uh, complain about that anymore.
But, um, have you ever seen the, the, the,
the specialty Puffco peak, um,

(01:17:20):
hand blown and,
and made glass trophies that they usedfor Emerald Cup the last few years since
they started sponsoring them? No.
I haven't. Oh.
My God, they're absolutelybeautiful. Um, uh,
I wish I could plug the artistwho does such a great job on them,
or maybe they change 'em from year toyear. But anyway, if, um, that's great.
You know, for tho who,
those who like puffco and theyalso like ostentatious pieces,

(01:17:43):
you know, you know, uh, searchfor the, for the Emerald Cup, um,
awards, they.
Look pretty good. Yeah.
I've seen some great wood ones onlinewhere people are making some oh,
wood dots, some gorgeouswood pipes that, uh,
that then the Carta fits in andyeah. Yeah, those are gorgeous.
So you can have that smoking likeexperience, but then enjoy your,

(01:18:04):
your extracts.
So th this whole familyof, uh, of p pipes,
like the Puffco Peak and the Carta,
these all would fall into the conductioncategory, right. Because, um, that,
that ceramic bowl that's being heated,and then we're putting our dab oil on it,
that is a direct applicationof heat. Correct?

(01:18:25):
Correct. Correct.
Yeah. Cool. Um, do you have any,
do you have anything else tosay about that? Like that,
that type of designbefore we move forward?
No, I think that, well, I, I alwayshave something to say, I suppose.
Go ahead, finish this off on.
This topic. Something Yeah. Yeah.I, I think, um, again, look at,
at the waste product, right? So what'sleft in, in the bowl when you're done,

(01:18:49):
uh, and that can tell you alittle bit about clues to the,
to the chemistry that's happening, um,during the process of vaporization.
So when you're left with, youknow, dark, uh, resee, um,
substances, uh, then you've, youhaven't completely, uh, vaporized them.
And you may have altered thechemistry just like when, uh,

(01:19:10):
in a cartridge that'snear the end of life,
the oil has changed from amaybe a light honey, um, to a,
a really darker, uh, blendbecause you've altered the oils,
um, and you're left with some of thatheavier kind of, uh, compounds in there.
Does. Hmm. That's interestinghow what is left, um,

(01:19:32):
depending on what is left, uh,
can say something aboutyour temperature choice,
but it can also say somethingabout what's in the oil.
True.
Um, so other, other than the,
the under combusted dark oilthat you're talking about, what,
what else might we find inre remaining in the bowl that

(01:19:55):
we would want to be aware of?
? Um, well, you'renot having any plant matters.
So what you've got are, are largelyjust different oil compounds.
Um, when you, uh,
when the changes happento terpenes. Uh, and Dr.
Stren from Portland State Universityhas done some interesting research on,

(01:20:18):
on dabs and sort of the byproducts of,
of conventional dabbing techniques.
This doesn't apply to lowtemperature dabbing, uh,
but for high temperature dabs,um, there's, you know, a,
what, there's a great word pyrolytic,but literally means fire changed.
Uh, and thermal lytic is probablythe more accurate thing. They, the,

(01:20:42):
the oils then break down into thosebenzene rings and these other,
um, you know, hydrocarbons thathave been shown to be present in,
in, uh, you know, cigarettesmokes and be, uh, you know,
cancer causing compounds.
So I'm not saying thatthat's what is in there,

(01:21:03):
but there is a likelihood ofof, of finding those kinds of,
of compounds in that remaining.
Goo.
Goo. Yeah. Thank you. I was trying tothink of the right thing. It is goo,
it's gunk, it's gross. Um.
And it, and it's a really, um,
good encouragement for us thatwhen we do get a new vaporizer to,

(01:21:24):
um, really spend sometime getting to know, um,
the different temperaturepoints so that we can, you know,
really find the right temperature forhow we like to smoke, so that we're,
we're not having that much,much, um, you know, uh,
residue and that we're not tempted tosmoke it once it's become gunk. We wanna,

(01:21:45):
we wanna heat it properly, so, uh,
we get to inhale it pre gunk.
. Yeah. Yeah,definitely. Yeah. Um, you know,
for anybody making a selectionof a, of a vaporizer,
it really comes down to yourpreferences, right? Uh, you know,
how much do you value the discreetness?There's a time and a place, you know,

(01:22:06):
for a, for a vape pen that's, youknow, nothing else is going to,
to actually fill thatneed, um, for you. Uh,
and then how much of an enthusiastare you, are you concerned about, uh,
preserving terps? Areyou looking for the full,
kind of a more relaxedritualized experience, which some of those will give you?

(01:22:27):
Um, or are you looking for somethingthat's a little faster? And, uh,
you actually, I, I don't know about you,
but I really don't want to interact withmy phone to then control my ,
control my vaporizer, right. Uh,interact with my phone enough. So yeah,
it really.
It does take you of it, it doestake you out of being present,
but I also have to cop to the fact thatI've never done that yet. So I, I look,

(01:22:50):
I look forward to having that opportunity.
There you go. Yeah. So howmuch is the technology, um,
enhancing your experience,
or is your technology getting inthe way of your experience? Is it,
is it becoming part of the focus ofyour experience or not? Yeah. To me,
an ideal product kind of fades into thebackground and you don't have to think
about it too much.

(01:23:11):
Right on. Well said. All right, so,um, let's bring an end to this, uh,
rather long set and go toour commercial break. Uh,
you are listening to Shaping Fire. Oh,
and let me make sure youthat you come back, cuz,
because if that was a long set for you,
you might be likethinking about taking off.
But don't go anywhere cuz we're talkingabout something really important.
On the third set,
we are talking about boiling pointmyths and the difference between

(01:23:34):
evaporation versus boiling. So makesure you come back from that. Uh,
you are listening to Shaping Fire andmy guest today is aerospace engineer
Mark Lewis.
After you've caught up on thelatest shaping fire episodes,
do sometimes wish there was more cannabiseducation available to learn? Well,
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(01:23:56):
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(01:24:42):
Kevin Jory, one with Dr. EthanRusso, and one with Jeff Lowenfels.
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So go to youtube.com/shang golos orclick on the link in the newsletter

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anywhere else.
Sometimes the topics I want to sharewith you are far too brief for an entire
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(01:27:42):
So I encourage you to follow at ShapingFire and at Shang Golos and join our
online community on Instagram. Welcomeback, you are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Shloss, and my guesttoday is aerospace engineer Mark Lewis.
So here's the big finish. During the firstset, we talked about why we vape and,
and what the customer experienceis, the consumer experiences and,

(01:28:04):
and why so many people are attractedto vaping. During the second set,
we went in depth into the vaporizertechnologies as as they are right now.
And, uh, a whole bunch ofstrategies for, for, you know,
getting a vape in yourhands that fits your, um,
smoking preferences because theyreally are a personal device. Well,

(01:28:25):
here in set three, we're gonnafinish up with a discussion of, uh,
evaporation versus boiling. Um,because, you know, uh, if, if,
if the primary physics thatwe want to have happen is the
cannabinoids and terpenes and the,
the rest of the resin components tobe vaporized and then inhaled into our

(01:28:45):
lungs,
it really does matter what theirvolatility levels are and whether we're
evaporating or boiling.
And in our scene on Instagramor on Reddit, you know,
it's very common to see theselittle charts that show all of the
volatility points for differentterpenes and cannabinoids and,

(01:29:07):
and we feel like thatempowers us. Um, but Mark,
you've written this greatblog on your website, um,
that explains how thatbelief is not quite right
and, and then people are using thatinformation and the the thermostats
on our, on our vaporizers in,

(01:29:28):
in ways that aren't maybe getting theresults that they're looking for. So,
so I guess, I guess let's,let's slow slide into this by,
by talking about thesecharts that exist and,
and what their limitations arethat you see as as a engineer.
Yeah, yeah, thanks Jengo.I appreciate that. Um, the,

(01:29:52):
I'm fascinated by these boiling pointcharts, and when I first saw them,
I was like, oh, that's reallycool. And oh, these vaporizers are,
are saying that I can dial in, youknow, a particular terpene. If I,
you know, if I dial it atto 349 degrees Fahrenheit,
I will get laminine, you know, becausethat's the boiling point of limine. And,

(01:30:15):
um, you know, that's just not true. It's the bottom line of that.
Um, as you, as you look deeperinto it, uh, you know, those,
those may be the boiling points, um,
boiling points are notoriouslydifficult to actually measure.
So there's boiling ranges.Uh, most scientists, uh,

(01:30:36):
use boiling ranges rather thana particular boiling point, uh,
because it's pressure dependent and,
and there's other aspects of the purityof the sample and all of these other
things that, that lead toboiling or not boiling. Um,
so there's that, but that's not asrelevant as the other aspects here. The,
the great thing about the chartsis that it gives you some relative

(01:30:59):
volatility of thecompound. So by volatility,
how easy is it to gofrom a liquid to a vapor?
So something that's super volatile, um,
at room temperature willevaporate really rapidly.
Think of rubbing alcohol, for example.So that's a pretty volatile compound.

(01:31:22):
Whereas as water is not avery volatile compound, uh,
it takes a little bit more workto get those molecules into
their, into their gaseous form.So those boiling point charts are,
are great to understand somerelative volatility, but they're,
they don't tell theentire story, if you will.

(01:31:44):
So,
so do they have any valueto us as people who are
consuming cannabis withvaporizers? Like, like if there,
if there might be some, you know,
maybe not inaccuracies in them,
but some contextualthings that are missing,

(01:32:04):
can they be useful to us at all? Howcould we use them to our benefit? Or,
or is it, is it, is it just not useful?
Yeah, no, they're,
they are useful in understanding sort ofthe relative nature of these different
compounds. So what we'vegot in cannabis, uh,
is this wonderful bouquet of,
of different aromatics andflavonoids and cannabinoids,

(01:32:28):
um, that are in this mixture.
And it's helpful to maybe thinkabout it as a perfume. Um,
and in that perfume, there'sthese top notes that are lighter.
They're the citrusy notes.They're, you know, they're, uh,
if you think about that in terms of aperfume, there's, there's your top notes,
your mid notes and your base notes. Now,

(01:32:49):
if you put on your cologne oryour perfume, um, you know,
right away you're getting thoseearlier notes as part of the mixture.
Um, they're more dominant,
but you're still getting thebase notes and those smells, uh,
as the perfume evaporates off of you. Um,

(01:33:10):
but the mixture later on,
an hour later is going to maybebe less on the top notes and more
dominant with the mid notes, but yourbase notes are still there as well.
And then later on intothe evening, you know,
a lot of your top notes haveall evaporated, your mid notes,
there's less of them.
And your base notes then are thedominant smell that you will smell.

(01:33:34):
And similarly, uh, thathappens more rapidly, um,
with vaporization, uh,particularly flower vaporization,
is that you are for a particularpower setting on your,
on your vaporizer, um, you aregoing to get a different mixture,
um, of, of those compounds. And yoursecond pole will be slightly different.

(01:33:58):
Your third pole willbe slightly different.
Your fourth pole will be more different.
And throughout your sessionwith a particular, uh, bowl, um,
you're going to be left then, uh,at the end with some of the heavier,
more difficult to volatile, um,compounds, but they'll still be present.
You know, that sounds fun, butalso frustrating, right? Because I,

(01:34:21):
I want all of it at the same time, but,
but my mind suggests that the way thatI would get them all at the same time
is if I am, uh,
using a really hot setting, right?
Which would then also give me asatisfying cloud perhaps. But,
but what I'm doing is I'm likeracking probably the more volatile

(01:34:44):
ones in order to get the more base ones.
And even though in my headI'm thinking, oh, if I,
if I scorch it at thishigher temperature, I'll get,
I'll get all the good stuff at once.That, that isn't really how it plays out.
Is it?
Uh, yes and no. I mean, if you, if youcrank up the heat, you're going to,
uh, volatilize more rapidly,right? Um, so you're going to get,

(01:35:09):
uh, you're, it's still gonna happenin a similar way. You're, you're,
your lighter compounds aregonna evaporate more rapidly.
It's just gonna be on a compressedtimescale. And so the benefits of,
of those who choose to do lowtemperature vaporization is that it
spreads out that extraction,if you will, over over time.

(01:35:30):
And so you're able to tasteand experience the subtleties,
um, you know, in a differentway. A again, if, if,
if I'm have a medical conditionthat I'm, um, treating, uh, and I,
and I need that rapidonset, then, you know,
by all means crank it up . So what.
What would be the, what would be thetempera that you would recommend,

(01:35:52):
temperature you would recommendif somebody's goal is to, uh,
get as much as they can out ofit, you know, teaching, tasting,
you know, uniform in, youknow, just a hit or two.
Yeah. Well, I, I would, you know,personally, I'm, I'm never personally.
You wouldn't recommend that.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend that. Um,

(01:36:13):
I think you get a lot more out of yourcannabis, uh, through a, a lower, I,
I started out there Shanggo, uh, when I first, uh,
started exploring vaporization,and I wanted to, you know,
ratcheted up to that precombustion point, right?
So that I had that heavyroast. I, I felt, you know,
got the feedback that was morefamiliar to me, like smoking. Um,

(01:36:37):
and honestly, I, you know,over the last couple of years,
I consistently start dialing it backfarther and farther and farther.
And it extends my session a little bit,but my enjoyment level goes way up.
Uh, I don't approach with the bowl.
There's a point in your bowlwhere you start to experience a,

(01:36:58):
a bite and, and that's when I cashout mm-hmm. . And, uh,
if you're up in that pre combustionzone where you're at, you know,
temperatures around400 or, or greater, um,
you're going to get to that bite alot faster. Mm-hmm. .
And to me, then I'm wasting productsbecause I didn't experience all,

(01:37:20):
all of the joy that the rest of thecompounds were, were offering me.
Um,
I think that that speaks to a reallyimportant point and can probably be like a
theme for the show, which is, um,
part of choosing to use avaporizer for your consumption
involves, um,

(01:37:41):
having a differentexperience than combustion,
because vaporizing is nevergoing to be combustion.
And so part of becominga regular vaporizer is,
is learning to smoke in new ways.For example, um, you know, uh,
people who are fans of theCold Start, where, where you,
you warm up the tool alreadyloaded and, and, and the,

(01:38:06):
the, the dab oil slowlyincreases and you're,
and you're taking hits as it's warmingup, working its way all the way up. You,
your, your sesh has significantlyexpanded in the time.
And also, um,
your every hit that you takeis going to be different.
But that,

(01:38:27):
that evolution of the hitsis itself a a different
experience, an enjoyable experience,
a connoisseurs experience that you,that you don't get with, with a joint.
Yeah. It's, it's slowing itdown a little bit. Um, uh,
which I think we've lost a little bitin, in our cannabis consumption, right?

(01:38:48):
Keep, keep the foreplay in cannabis.
. I love it.. Yeah. Well, it,
it's, uh, leaning into, I mean,
we don't do shots of alcohol anymoreafter college. I mean, maybe occasionally,
but, uh, to me it's, it's more likesipping a fine cocktail or a whiskey,
uh, rather than, you know,

(01:39:08):
slamming it back and not just goingafter the end result. Uh, again,
no judgment, because you know, that,
that was a large part of my lifefor a while. Um, but, and, and.
As we've talked about throughout the show,
this whole show is about personalpreference, right? Yeah, absolutely.
So we're not trying to judge anybody.
No, not at all. Not at all.
It's just be open-minded toexperiencing cannabis differently.

(01:39:30):
And I think that's whatVaporization offers you is this, uh,
you know,
a a really different way to enjoyreally high quality cannabis.
And, uh, I'm blessedand you're blessed. Uh,
and others out there are blessed tolive in places where they have really
conscientious cultivators whoare creating these amazing

(01:39:55):
terp rich, uh, uh, varietals, um,
that I think deserve to be experiencedin their fullest. And for me, uh,
flower vaporization is a way for, forme to taste and experience that, uh,
complexity, uh, that the plant has tooffer. And, and the high is different,
uh, than, than combusting.

(01:40:15):
Well, that, you know, that that's a reallygreat ending to the show there. Mark.
You know, I, I was gonna ask you if,
if there are any more boiling pointmyths that you wanted to point out.
And so I am, cause I don't, you may,
you may have something else that you wannabring to the table before we wrap up,
but that was, that was beautiful. Uh,
do you have any other boiling point mythsthat you wanna bring up before we end
the show?
Well, the, well, the onlyreal thing is, is that, um,

(01:40:39):
the mechanism is not really boiling,which is internal to a fluid. It's,
it's better to think aboutit as evaporation, uh,
and just a rapid evaporationrather than, than a boiling.
I see. So, so the charts thatpoint out, the boiling point,
they may be scientificallyaccurate, but, but really,

(01:41:00):
because evaporation starts beforeboiling, we're back to, um,
you pointing out that it, it reallyis more of a, a range. Yeah. And it,
and it is a range that everytime we take a hit, um,
we're going to cool the, theheating element to some degree.
And so we're, we're just gonna bewhatever temperature we we pick,

(01:41:22):
we're actually just gonna be kind ofcycling up and down in that general
neighborhood.
Yeah. Some devices warm up fasterand, and compensate, but, but largely,
yeah, you're, you're, you're doing thatkind of cycling, um, back and forth.
The boiling points again,give you the relative how,
how you're gonna experience,uh, that bowl, I guess.

(01:41:43):
Excellent. Well, mark, thank you somuch for being a guest on Shaping Fire.
You know, um, I, I've been a fan, um,
of Vaporizers for years and, youknow, but I've never actually like,
studied them very hard. And, and asI said in the introduction, you know,
when I met you,
you had the actual scientific answers for,

(01:42:05):
for the questions that Ihad had for years. And, and,
and it was funny cause our, you know,
well our first phone call was overan hour. And, um, and I was like,
so excited to hear you crossapplying all this vaporization,
um, all these vaporizationquestions I had to, to, you know,
aeronautical, aeronautical engineeringand, and rocket science. I was all like,

(01:42:28):
oh, I have finally found my personfor, for the vaping show. So,
um, so I really appreciateyou, um, you know, uh,
coming over and hanging out with us onShaping Fire for a little while and, and,
uh, you know, sharing yourexpertise and also, you know,
kind of taking it out of the headysuper science vocabulary that you and

(01:42:49):
I used on our first phone call and,
and kind of put it in layman's terms termstoday so that we could do a show that
would be open to everybody. So, so I,
I appreciate your knowledge and yourability to make that knowledge accessible
to all sorts of differentkind of cannabis enthusiasts.
Well, thank you so much, Shang. Go.
And thank you for all that you havedone over the years to really educate

(01:43:13):
consumers, uh, aboutthis wonderful plant and,
and other plants thatare out there. Um, it,
you've been a part of my own educationaljourney and your guests have been,
uh, part of that journey.
And I just wanna do a shout out to allof those people in the cannabis space who
are helping to educate others,uh, and to deify, uh, this,

(01:43:33):
uh, industry. Because themore we can deify it, uh,
the more we can move beyond the stigmaand, and start really celebrating, uh,
what the plant has to offer us.
Fabulous. All right, dearlistener. Um, if you want to, uh,
learn more from Mark, um,
I highly recommend that you checkout his website where he has got a

(01:43:55):
handful of blog, uh, entriesthat are very interesting, uh,
with all sorts of charts and graphs,
including the one that we did thislast set, primarily focused on,
on boiling point myths, which, uh,
it goes into far more detailthan we did here today. And, um,
you can find the blog section at hiswebsite, which is pearl labs.com.

(01:44:17):
And so it's spelled specially,
so it's P R R L l
A b s.com.
So it's kinda like a cat pearl labs.com.
And there you will find,um, you know, his blog and,
and also the vaporizers thathe has, um, engineered himself,

(01:44:39):
um, with all of this insight.And, uh, I'm a big fan of the, uh,
the neo that I talked about in theintroduction. So at the very least,
go check it out because a, uh, avaporizer that functions like a,
uh, like a handheld lighteris a pretty cool thing to see.
You can find more episodes of theShaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the
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(01:45:04):
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(01:45:25):
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(01:45:46):
Thanks for listening to ShapingFire. I've been your host, Shang Lo.