EP109 Encouraging Neurogenesis with Phytocannabinoids with guest Staton Laws

Brain cells die, and our body has the ability to make new ones. But as we age, the ability to make new brain cells slows, and sometimes even slows so much that dementia arises. On this episode of Shaping Fire, host Shango Los, talks with cannabinoid researcher Staton Laws about the mechanics of neurogenesis, how cannabis medicine can stimulate the creation of vital neurons, and specific nootropic dosing protocols for those interested in sustaining their brain health and longevity, as well as cannabis patients who are already facing dementia and Alzheimer's disease.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
It has been debated sincethe beginning of science.
Whether who you are is seated inthe mind or the soul. In fact,
the debate gets muddled reallyquickly as philosophers discuss.
If perhaps the mind is in the soul,
or the adverse perhaps idea of thesoul is part of the mind without
any doubt, whichever interpretationyou tend to lean towards,
the physical squishy bioelectrical brainis an essential part of the picture and

(00:31):
an essential part of however itis that we function. Make lunch,
make inventions, and make love.
If you wanna learn about cannabis healthcultivation and technique efficiently
and with good cheer, I encourageyou to subscribe to our newsletter.
We'll send you new podcastepisodes as they come out,
delivered right to your inbox,
along with commentary on a couple ofthe most important news items from the

(00:51):
week. And videos too.
Don't rely on social media to let youknow when a new episode is published.
Sign up for the updates to make sureyou don't miss an episode. Also,
we give away very cool prizes tofolks who are signed up to receive the
newsletter.
There's nothing else you need to doto win except receive that newsletter.
So go to shaping fire.com to sign up forthe newsletter this week and be entered
in this month's and all futurenewsletter prize drawings.

(01:15):
You are listening to Shaping Fire,and I'm your host, Shang Los.
My guest today is Cannabinoidresearcher state and laws.
State and laws is an accredited healthand wellness professional with an
expertise in nutrition. Andover 10 years in practice,
he earned a degree in health sciencesand is presently a cannabinoid researcher
earning a PhD of medical science in theSchool of Biomedicine at the University

(01:36):
of Adelaide Australia.
Staton has served as the graduate researchassistant for several grant research
projects in Hawaii,
and is currently a teaching assistantat the University of Adelaide Health and
Medical Sciences.
His research interests center on thenutraceutical properties of medical
cannabis,
and particularly he has been publishedfive times regarding the neutral
protective bioactivity ofcannabis, prevalent terpenes,

(01:59):
and its implication for the entourageeffects of medical cannabis,
full spectrum formulations, andpotential use in dementia care.
Staton is also the owner and founder ofthe nutrition Company, sprouting Soul,
which advocates a holisticapproach to wellness,
predicated on ease and simplicity.
Staten leads nutrition and yoga workshopson topics including detoxification,

(02:20):
ketosis,
and the art and science of living foodsdedicated to a lifestyle of wellness.
Staten Nest taught over 6,000 yogaclasses in the U S A and Australia,
and served as a lead facilitator fornumerous yoga teacher trainings and
masterclasses during the first set.
Today we will understand what neurogenesisconsists of and which cannabinoids

(02:41):
encourage and support the creation ofnew brain cells. In the second set,
we will learn about neuroprotection andhow cannabinoids help us keep the brain
cells we already have alive andfunctioning. And during the third set,
we will focus specificallyon cannabis supplementation,
including dosing protocols for folksinterested in health and longevity,
as well as cannabis patients experiencingAlzheimer's disease and dementia.

(03:03):
Welcome to Shaping Fire, Satan.
I'm grateful to be here. Really.
Glad to have you. So let'sget right into it. You know,
when we say that cannabidiolcauses neurogenesis,
what exactly do we mean by neurogenesis.
That C b D promotes thecreation of new brain cells?

(03:26):
And is it,
is it all types of brain cells or isit only particular varieties of brain
cells that cannabidiol can,uh, cause to be produced?
Well, I think we need to explainwhat neurogenesis is. Mm-hmm.
and then break down howc b D plays a role in this process.

(03:48):
Please.
Alright, so if we're gonna breakneurogenesis down into four different,
I guess you could call them stages,and we're just fig we're, you know,
we're figuring this out.
It wasn't until 1965 thatwe found in the denate
gyrus of the hippocampus thatneurogenesis actually occurs.

(04:09):
So we've been doing a lot since then tofigure out how C B D can play a role.
And look, we're still figuring out,
but if we were to beginto address your question,
where these cells multiply or begin tosplit is in the proliferation phase,
and that this might be a stretch,
and I'm gonna try to makean analogy with cannabis,

(04:30):
because this takes a similaramount of time for a cell,
a neural stem cell tomultiply and then become a
neuronal cell.
So in the proliferation stage wherethese newborn neuro stem cells and the
hippocampus begin to multiply,
we could compare this to theflowering tops of the cannabis plant.

(04:50):
And these neural stem cells could bethe seeds inside this flowering top,
and they begin to multiplyin about two weeks.
Then this integration stage takesplace, and that's after say,
the seeds transverse to the ground.
And these neuronal stem cells migrateto certain areas within the brain.

(05:11):
They begin to d differentiate andstart to spread out their axons and
dendrites forming these neuronal likeprojections and becoming more specialized
as a neuron oligodendrocyte or astri.
So that's sort of the phase wherethey change their specific function
in the neurogenesis, uh, process.

(05:33):
And that's very similar to say like acannabis seed sprouting in the ground,
forming its roots,
and also beginning to project itsfan like leaves up towards the,
the sunlight to receivephotosynthesis and also
nutrition from the soil. And thenas these neural cells differentiate,
they actually start toreceive communication from other neuronal cells, uh,

(05:57):
and stabilize and begin attempting toestablish functional connections such as
receiving neurotransmitter signals,as well as trophic support,
which is the feeding and nutrition,and also pro survival factors,
which we'll talk a little bitabout throughout this conversation,
such as blood to Thrive, neuroOIC factor, neuro growth factor,
and a couple other chemicals that floataround and sort of support this, uh,

(06:21):
maturation process. And it endsup, in the best case scenario,
about six to eight weeks,
which you might be able to educate me alittle bit more on, which is in my, uh,
understanding is about the same amountof time it takes a seed to turn into a
cannabis plant. Doesthat make any sense? Oh.
It's six to eight weeks for flowering.Probably another four if you include veg,

(06:42):
but yeah, we're with you. And, andsince we're talking about timeframe,
I'm really surprised that there are,like, we're looking at this neurogenesis,
um, timeline on a scaleof weeks. The facts,
the fact that this, um,this, this, you know,
this brain stem cell gets created andthen it takes time to, um, you know,

(07:02):
split and mature and migrateand then become the type of cell
it's gonna be. In my mind,you know, when, when I see,
um, uh, you know,illustrations on, on, you know,
TV or the internet, all this stuffhappens like really fast, right?
The thing just moves andgoes, and it happens.
The fact that anything in thebrain might take, you know,

(07:25):
two to four weeks to developand get to where it's going,
that seems like a glacierpace to me for the brain.
But, you know, uh, I, I'm a, I'ma novice at, at understanding, um,
neuroscience, right?
So it would make sense that I wouldhave some incorrect expectations.
I mean, but the, the multiplicationphase, you know, from my research,

(07:47):
I can say that it happens quite quickly.
We're all see cells double or triplewithin two to three days in the lab.
Um,
and that's probably the most tangiblething that I can say as far as being able
to see it happen mm-hmm., um,
in real time versus readingabout it. So yeah, it's, uh,
I think we're all learning aboutthe exact timeline of this.

(08:10):
I can imagine as a research scientistthat when you're in the lab and you're
visibly watching theseneuronal stem cells, um,
splitting over these two or threedays, that it's a kind of exciting,
and b maybe even makes you feel likeyou're having like kid like, oh,
these are my babies, you know,these are my, you know, I'm,

(08:30):
I'm growing these for research and Igotta take care of 'em and make sure
they're fed correctly andeverything. I would think that,
that you would have a lot of, um,like, uh, care emotions for them.
I don't know, maybe I'm anthropomorphizingtoo much, but I think I would care.
Yeah, I would say so. I'm sort of, mylife is sort of dictated by them. Uh,
I don't really have aschedule. My schedule's based off of the cell growth and,

(08:51):
um, and also if I decideto differentiate them,
that's another 48 hours withcertain chemicals. So yeah,
they.
Uh, the fact that they run your lifemay is making them sound more like kids.
. Yeah, . All right. Solemme get you back into your timeline. So,
so we, we've under, we've understood whathappens, you know, regularly. So, um,
I think where you were goingnext was, um, what adding, uh,

(09:14):
cannabidiol C b D to thisinteraction does to, uh,
encourage it probably.
Yeah. So we'll talk first about theindirect way and then the direct way.
So the indirect way that C B D canhelp in the proliferation phase and the
multiplication phase isby increasing anandamide,

(09:34):
which is the bliss molecule thatis an endogenous cannabinoid.
And it does this by sort of blocking fa or
fatty acid amide hydroxylase,
which is an end enzyme thatbreaks down the Hyde and
anandamide has the ability to bind tothe CB one and the CB two receptor,

(09:56):
which has been shown to promotecell proliferation. Mm-hmm.
So that's in the first phase. SoI would say that C B D, you know,
has its way to sort of tone up the
endocannabinoid system to promotethe first stage of neurogenesis.
And then C B D can influencecell proliferation directly

(10:19):
by binding to the transient placenta,
potential Vanilla Lloyd type one,
or let's just call thesethings T rrp V one receptor,
and the five HT one A receptor,which is the serotonin receptor,
which is demonstrated to help, you know,
the cell proliferation is also alsoblood derived nootropic factor,
which, uh, C B D can also promote, notonly helps with cell proliferation,

(10:44):
but also with the activation, uh,
the differentiation and alsohelping the dendra complexity,
which would form into the maturationphases as well as synaptic formation and
plasticity of these newborn neurons.
So through these T R P V one receptors,
the five HT one A receptors andthe blood derived nootropic sort of

(11:07):
promotion, it has different stages of, uh,
helping the neurogenesis process.
That was a great explanation.
I really enjoy having hardcoreresearch scientists who are in the lab
all the time on the show because,you know, the fine mechanics and,
and we're we're really interestedin that and, and not, well, we're.

(11:29):
Trying to figure it out. Yeah.It's really complicated. .
Well, yeah, I mean, we all know thatthe science is active, right? But it's,
it's, it's a lot differentthan talking to, um,
a lay person who will give youthe story of how it happens, like,
like when patients talk tome, right? Like, like I,
I might be able to describethose three things happening,
but I'm not gonna have the mastery ofthe language like you have that I think

(11:50):
just makes us all feel likea bit more confident that,
that we're learning the good stuff,right? So, so I appreciate that. So,
so as far as thinking aboutthose, those those three, um,
those three ways that, thatcannabidiol supports neurogenesis, um,
is it, is it a fairmodel to think that what,

(12:10):
what happens when we take C B D iswe are essentially like turning up
the governor on the engine a little bitbecause your brain will naturally do
these three processes,but when you add C B D,
it makes the whole process happen, um,
with more gusto and, and so like, maybe,

(12:30):
maybe quicker and more.
Yeah, that's a, a good way to lookat it. I was gonna explain it. Uh,
as a, if you, if you play guitar, soyou're like tuning your guitar, um,
while the chords of each of the guitaror while a strings of each guitar acts,
you're on a different note when you tunethem correctly and you play that note,

(12:51):
that sound travels with more precisionand actually has a chord or a,
a tone. And so I would say thatC B D helps with the overall,
uh, tone of neurogenesis.
Ah, so by your description, what then,
one of the things that CB does is increasethe efficiency of this whole thing.

(13:11):
Yep. Got it.
Because all these things are happeningregardless of with C B D in or outta the
body by putting it in, likeyou said, to rev up the engine,
it's actually like turning up the,
the volume slightly througha coordination of events.
I get it.
So ev everybody is wherethey need to be when the

(13:33):
performance starts and everybody'sgot all the resources they need.
So the whole manufacturing teamis just efficient and ready to go.
Yep.
Got it. So, um, you know,
when we talk aboutneurogenesis in the, um,
cannabis world, um, we're,
we're usually exclusively talkingabout C B D because that's what most

(13:57):
people are familiar with as acannabinoid that causes neurogenesis. Um,
but I know that we're continuing of courseto expand our research to other novel
cannabinoids. Um,
are we familiar with any othercannabinoids that cause neurogenesis
in addition to C B D yet?

(14:17):
Yeah, I would go with, uh, delta nine,
T H C as the other, um,
Major phytocannabinoid thathas been recognized as a
promoter of neurogenesis inalignment with its function
like anandamide and itsability to have an affinity

(14:41):
to that CCB one, CCB two receptor,
which along with that brainderived nootropic factor is
what causes that firststage of neurogenesis.
And in a wrap model,
I think it was around 1.5 milligramsa kilo, which they called, uh,
somewhat lower dose acute and chronicallyadministered to a certain amount of

(15:03):
time,
it did show that it enhanced neurogenesiscognitive function and performance.
And so if we looked at the sortof function of delta nine T H c,
I'd maybe extend that. Maybe it'sa bit of a stretch to delta eight,
'cause it does have some binding abilityto CB one and CB two and maybe even C B

(15:23):
N, which even has a lesser degree ofbinding ability to those two receptors.
Hmm. So when we're, when we'relooking at the other, um,
uh, significant neurogenesis agent in,
in D nine T H C, um,is it essentially, um,

(15:45):
helping neurogenesis inthe same three areas of
process as the C B D or isit mostly just at the first
step since both C B D and Dnine T H C are acting on the
anandamide, which, whichhelps that first step is,
is T H C helping all the way in the,

(16:05):
all the way down the line in those threedifferent timeframes like C, b, D does?
Or is it really mostly justthere at the beginning?
Uh, it's a good question. I wouldhave to look into, you know,
how much Delta nine plays a role indifferentiation and integration mm-hmm.
as well as thematuration of the brain cell.

(16:25):
And I think that could get into to the,
some of that controversialapplication of, uh,
T H C and timeframes in life. Mm-hmm.. But my guess would be, yes,
it does play a role in thedevelopment of the brain cell.
Interesting. All right. So, um, let's,let's switch sides of the equation here.
So, so up to this point we've beentalking about the, the, you know,

(16:48):
the C B D and T H C helping, uh, and, and,
and making this neurogenesis processmore efficient and more robust.
Um, these, these, these neuronal, um,
stem cells that split,
split split and then they mature and thenthey migrate to where they're going to
become the kind of cell they're,they're going to become. Um,

(17:13):
can these neuronal stem cells, um,
turn into any sort of cell in the brain,
or are they only particular flavors?
When you mean particularcell of the brain,
they can become a neuronal cell,
an oligodendrocyte or anastrocyte from my understanding,

(17:36):
and to a certain degree,different areas of the brain. Uh,
I think it was, we justrecently saw how this,
this kind of occur in thehypothalamus, the raum,
the substantial negra.
And I think we're finding maybe somemore areas of the brain where this does
occur.
Alright. On that is a good answer. And I,

(17:56):
and I'm also going to change my questiona little bit to get at something a
little different, which is, um, what ifI were to change the question and say,
are there any brain cells that cannot be
replaced by this neurogenesisthat we described.
Like areas of the brain that this.

(18:16):
Cannot not happen? Yeah, that might,yeah. The idea, the, what I'm,
what I'm trying to get to isthat it, it, it, you know,
neurogenesis is great and if it canreplace all the parts in of our brain,
that's even cooler. But if thereare some parts of our brain that,
that just can neverbenefit from neurogenesis,
I'd be curious to know what it is.
Yeah, that's a good question. AndI can't answer that specifically,
but I have hope that the answer is yes.

(18:38):
Okay. Fair enough. Fairenough. And you know, and,
and this is what happens when we do aninterview on the edge of, of the science,
we know, right? So we're, we're probablygonna run into some stuff like that.
Mm-hmm. .
Okay. So if, if we're clear now that, uh,
C b D and T H C can helpalong the neurogenesis, and,
and we know that neurogenesis can, uh,

(19:00):
replace an entire variety of, uh, of,
of different types of, of,of brain cells, um, uh,
I wanna look at a potential, um,
other limiting factors that could slowdown this neurogenesis since kind of the
point of today is what is neurogenesisand how can we, you know, encourage it?

(19:20):
Right? So, so, um, arethere other inputs and,
and there might be too manydimension, I'm open to this, but,
but are there other inputs thatneed to be present, um, uh,
that, um,
if not present is goingto reduce the ability of
cannabidiol and T H C to do this, um,

(19:44):
increase of efficiency andincrease in robustness of this
process? And, and, and what Iimagine you might say is, oh,
it needs this particular, um,brain chemical five H T P.
And so, you know,
we encourage people to take supplementsto also encourage neurogenesis
along with the C B D and T H C.

(20:07):
I think the easiest way toanswer that would be health.
Oh, right. On wholefood diet, . But.
But, uh, get exercise, let's, uh,
break health down into threecategories. We'll start with oxygen,
which, you know, we, we gotta have thatyou hold your breath and you eventually,
no brain cells will be doingmuch anymore. . Uh,

(20:29):
next thing we need is hydration orH two O or, you know, water and,
uh, nutrients. And so morespecifically, when we sort of say, okay,
well we can get air and water, we sortof take that a little bit for granted,
hopefully it's both clean air andwater and we get into nutrients.
I would say probably the number onewould be long chain fatty acids,

(20:49):
particularly omega threes playa, a pretty good role in, uh,
some of these processesthat promote neurogenesis.
The second one would be polyphenols, uh,
more specifically flavonoids. And thenthe third would be a healthy microbiome.
And we, we can get into those three ifyou'd like. And what supplements may be,

(21:11):
would be best if that wasn't partof your whole food diet approach.
Right. On. Let's hold on, uh, on that,that next protocol question and like,
what and how much to take for thethird set. 'cause I've got that. Yep.
I got that sitting down there totalk about. So, alright. So, um,
so assuming all thesecomponents are in place, um,

(21:35):
do we know about adosage threshold for, uh,
C B D to cause neurogenesis, essentially,
how much do we need to take forthis process to be improved at all?
Oh.
Well, I think most of our research thatcould get around a dosage comes from

(21:55):
either in vitro, whichmeans cellular or in vivo,
which is basically rat models.
And if I was to condense everythingI've read up to this point,
it would be around three to10 milligrams per kilogram.
And that becomes pretty hardto translate in a human due to

(22:17):
the bioavailability and, uh,
as well as where we're at withunderstanding how it even interacts
different inside thehuman versus other, uh,
creatures.
Um, me meaning that, um,
you can make this guesstimatebased on the lab science,

(22:38):
but,
but you just doing like a quickscale up based on your experience,
you're saying upfront that it would behard to defend this number 'cause we
don't really know yet.Correct. Okay, got it. But.
CB D'S a a relatively safe molecule,
so it's therapeutic rangeis probably gonna be

(23:02):
best, uh,
gauge at what condition youmight be trying to use it
for. Um,
and I think the idea of using it forneurogenesis is really unexplored,
especially in humans. So we, we have to,
you know, traverse slowlywith that recommendation.

(23:24):
Yeah, I, I, I understand that. I mean,that's one of the reasons why I, I,
it took so long me, for me to find youand hunt you down in Australia. Right.
There's just not a lot of people who aredoing this particular work that you're
working on, um, aroundcannabinoids and neurogenesis. Um,
you know, uh, uh, I'm,
I'm gonna ask you a quick math questionjust because you play with these numbers

(23:45):
all the time. Um, but you know,
the three to 10 milligramsper kilogram a day, you know,
the very rough guesstimate that you gave,
do you have an idea of how manymilligrams a day that is for, say,
somebody who's 150 pounds?We don't do metric here,
so I haven't gone backand forth between, you.
Know. Yeah, I think that'saround about 70 kilos.
So you say that upper threshold times 10,

(24:08):
700 milligrams a day. Cool.
Thank you. Appreciate.
You doing that. Uh, lower threshold, uh,
let's just say you weigh moreand make the numbers easier.
Say you weigh a hundred kilos and threemilligram dosage would be on the lower
end around 300, uh three. No, no. Got,
I think a recent study just came outthat synthesized all the literature that
they've done in human studies and saidthe safe dose is around 60 to a hundred

(24:32):
milligrams per day. So, uh.
60 To a hundred milligrams per daywhen we were talking about 300 to 700.
Yeah. That's more the therapeutic range.
I see, I see. Yeah.
So we talk a lot here on shapingfire about the compare and contrast
between, um, isolates andwhole plant medicine. And,

(24:55):
you know, anybody who listens tothe show knows that, uh, I'm no,
I'm no stranger to be pushing wholeplant medicine versus isolates.
While, while definitely also understandingthat isolates have their place.
For example,
if you need a novel cannabinoid andit makes sense for you to spike your,
your cannabis oil because you're,
you need a cannabinoid that's very hardfor you to get or to grow or something

(25:18):
like that. Um, like,
like many of us did in the early daysbefore we had access to C B D plants,
but we could get C b D isolatefrom Europe. Um, and, and I,
and I also know that most of thesestudies are using isolates because the
studies, um, you know, are, they're,
they're looking to set up futurepharmacology and they want the

(25:39):
isolates so that they can, youknow, reproduce their results.
And also it is just, you know, a loteasier and, and less, um, I don't know,
sloppy to work with isolates thanit is trying to deal with, you know,
a a direct whole plantresin. All of that said,
we also know that the, you know,
we're big believers in the entourageeffect and the fact that having, you know,

(26:04):
groups of various cannabinoidstogether, they, they,
they act synergisticallywith each other, um,
so that everybody can do their job better.
So all this just setsup this question. Um,
do you think that you would get, um, a,
a a better play fromyour C B D if you're, um,

(26:27):
taking it in a whole plantcannabis oil, you know,
commonly known to as like an R S O orsomething? Or, uh, do you find there's,
or, or from your research,
would you expect there's not gonna be anydifference between the isolate and the
whole plant? Or perhaps evenit's, it's favoring the isolate,
which will make me cry,but I'll believe you.

(26:48):
I mean, that's a, that's a bigquestion. Mm-hmm. ,
but we'll go with, uh, let's justlook at C B D as a molecule first.
So we could call that an isolateor C B D and what we've learned
on a molecular functional levelhas mostly to do with the isolate.
So if we were to saythat's, you know, the,

(27:08):
the backbone and we were togo whole plant, uh, that it,
we'd maybe have to look at extractionmethods and what is in that, uh,
whole plant extract.
But let's say that whole plantextract could be broken down into,
uh, C B D,
maybe some small, small amounts of othercannabinoids terpenes, which could be,

(27:33):
you know, quite a few mm.
Some can fla in.
15 Something, and then you haveyour canna flavin on top of that.
And each of those has alittle bit of a role in
therapeutic, uh, targets. So I would,you know, I'm a, I'm a whole plant,
um, promoter as well. I wouldthink you would get, uh,

(27:54):
some sort of synergistic effectfrom a whole plant extract,
and then we can get into maybe thebioavailability that it would enhance,
uh, because terpenes doplay a role in, you know,
enhancing the bioavailabilityof, uh, cannabinoids.
That's interesting. So, so, um,we would think that the, the, the,

(28:15):
the whole resin preparation,um, would just, you know,
join with our body systems at a,
at an easier and less frictionousrate than a straight isolate would.
I think so. Mm-hmm. ,
I think our body would be able to handleit more intelligently. 'cause that's,
if we were to look at the, you know, the,maybe the potential of 10,000 years of

(28:39):
co-evolution with the plant and thefact that we could have been using this
plant for that long,
then our body would have more of anintelligence with it as a whole plant
extract than an isolate.
Right on. So, um, we.
Have seen like an observationallyin patients with severe epilepsy.
There have been notable improvements withfar lower doses of C B D extract than

(29:02):
purified C B D. So there is a little bitof, uh, clinical research around that,
um, but not yet with neurogenesis. Right.
On. Great. Thank you. Um, alright, onemore question before we go to break and,
and, and this one is kindof a corollary question,
but doesn't really stemfrom the last one. So,
so we've been talking about thisneurogenesis process that we like to, uh,

(29:24):
you know, turn up the volume onby taking C B D and and T H C.
And so everything is happeningmore robustly and, um, um,
I was gonna say aggressively,that's probably not the right word,
but robustly, um,
I'm assuming that thereare some either, um,
um,

(29:46):
resources the brain may need ordamage that may have occurred to the
brain that is impedingneurogenesis that not even
adding cannabidiol can overcome.
And so what I'm specifically lookingfor are any suggestions you might have
of, of, um, you know,

(30:07):
pre-existing damage to thebrain that might block C B D
from doing its job because that,
that brain issue isactually shutting down the,
the neurogenesis in ways thatthe C B D cannot overcome.
Yeah. I think that's when we startgetting into, or this leads into, uh,

(30:30):
Alzheimer's disease, you know, once youget beyond that point of dendra and uh,
axonal breakage,
there isn't much of a chancethat anything's gonna save that
neuronal cell. And if we look that as acollective hole or a neuronal circuitry,
uh, connection line, and if a certainamount of it gets broken down,

(30:52):
then you know,
the chances of recovery are gonnabe pretty minimal to that circuit.
Uh,
so getting on board soonerrather than later would make c b
D more beneficial.
Right on. Now, um, I know yourspecialty is more in Alzheimer's,
which we talking about at morelength later. Um, but the,

(31:14):
the other disease that I'm oftentalking to patients about that involves
neurogenesis is Parkinson's.And, um, you know, I've,
I've I've been told by scientists,you know, just, you know,
standing at conferences and stuff that,
that one of the reasons why C BD helps Parkinson's patients is
because it causes neurogenesis.

(31:34):
Because a good deal of the impact fromParkinson's is because they are losing
their dopamine excretingneurons. And, and, uh,
that's a one-way trip ifthere's not neurogenesis.
And so C B D is causing more of these, um,
these brain cells to comeinto existence, which, um,

(31:55):
kind of like holds the line onthe Parkinson's to hold it from,
from getting worse.
A do you have any point of referenceon this to speak to it? And, and,
and b, does, uh,
is that process potentially similarlike to the one that we just described,
um, around, um, Alzheimer's?

(32:18):
Yeah. If we were looking at, um,
a level of dopa meic neurons
in their ability to produce dopamine,which I just kind of recently learned,
about 80% of Parkinson's is,
or is due to the lack of dopamine anddue to the lack of the dopamine producing

(32:39):
neurons. So if we couldcreate more of these neurons,
technically we could create more dopamineand effectively treat Parkinson's
disease.
And Parkinson's disease also has a proteinvery similar to Alzheimer's disease.
So Alzheimer's disease, the mainpathological hallmark is amyloid beta.
And in Parkinson's it's alpha-synuclein.
And C B D has shown ordemonstrated in preclinical

(33:02):
research that it stops theaggregation, not completely,
but it will help augment some of theaggregation of these two proteins that
create quite a toxicenvironment, extracellularly,
which affects their function andeventually creates cell death or,
you know mm-hmm. .
Uh.
The no longer functioning neurons whichconnect to each other and create a

(33:25):
communication line throughout the brain.
Wow, that's really interesting.Alright, cool. Well,
thank you for that statement. Um,
let's go ahead and take our first of twoshort breaks and we'll be right back.
You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and my guest today is Phytocannabinoidresearcher state and laws
Fish poop.
Brand fertilizer is an all natural fishpoop concentrate with nothing added.

(33:48):
Real fish poop is extraordinarily complex.Not only are you adding the nitrogen,
phosphorus, and potassium,
your plants need to build masstransport nutrients and enhance flavor.
But fish waste is also packed withbiological activity and micronutrients.
When you add fish poopto your irrigation water,
you are adding life forceprobiotics and active microbes.

(34:11):
These microorganisms include a wealthof various bacteria and protozoa,
which further enhance nutrientavailability for the plants.
Because plants are limited by theabsence of any essential micronutrient,
these trace nutrients are the differencebetween having a decent garden and
having a garden that makes youfeel really proud of your efforts.
Fish poop is a naturally completesolution that fills in the cracks in your

(34:35):
fertilizer program to ensure you offeryour garden a broad base of nutrients.
Not all fish poop is created equally.
Most products with added fish waste don'treveal their sources or lab results.
Fish poop, brand fish poop, however,
generates their own fish waste as abyproduct of their organic aquaponics
cannabis farm where they raiseornamental, koi and tilapia,

(34:59):
you are even invited to tour their farmin person or on their YouTube channel to
look for yourself.
This sort of transparency is wildlyrare in the fertilizer market.
The folks behind fish poopare also lifelong medical cannabis producers who have
deep connections in the community donatemore product than they sell and support
cannabis prisoner, veteran andpatient collectives and charities.

(35:22):
To get your bottle of pure fish poop,
go to fish poop.com and to see theirentire line of cannabis products go to
ounce of hope.com. That'sfish poop, brand Fish poop.
As cannabis regulations become moredemanding and consumers become more
educated,
it is increasingly important to avoidthe use of chemical pesticides when

(35:44):
cultivating cannabis.
Beneficial insects have been usedfor decades by the greenhouse,
vegetable and ornamentalplant industry. And today,
many cannabis cultivators are movingfrom sprays and chemicals to beneficial
insects. Coper has the beneficialinsects, mites and nematodes,
microbials, sticky cardsand air distribution units.

(36:04):
You need to partner withnature to defend your garden.
Whether you manage acres of canopy orhave a simple grow tent in your home,
coper is ready to help answeryour questions and help you transition away from
chemical sprays towardsclean and natural solutions.
Since 1967,
CPR has assisted growers in identifyingpests and devising reliable solutions

(36:27):
while providing healthy insects andmites that will protect your yield.
Since the 1990s,
Cobert has been a leader in cannabispest and disease control worldwide,
and have highly trained consultantsto assist you in Canada and the
United States from coast to coast withtheir global network of grower support,
Cobert can help. Visitcoper.com, choose your country,

(36:50):
and get detailedinformation. That's coper,
K o p p e r t.com.
For the most up-to-date cannabisrelated biological control information,
you can also check their Instagramat Coper Canada. You know,
getting away from pesticides is goodfor health and good for business,
and Coper is ready to help.Visit coper.com today.

(37:15):
Businesses everywhere are strivingto reach people through advertising.
We all know, though,
that trying to reach a cannabis audiencewith a quality message is pretty
difficult.
That's why many people choose toadvertise on the Shaping Fire Podcast.
Advertising on this show allows us timeto talk about your product, service,
or brand in a way that really lets peopleknow what sets your company apart from

(37:39):
others.
Bold people who own companies know thatgetting into relationship with their
customers is essential,and that is what we offer.
We will explain your service or product,what sets it apart as desirable,
and help our audience get in contactwith you. It's pretty simple, really.
Advertising does not have to be allwhizzbang, smoke and mirrors nowadays.

(38:03):
I find that people prefer just tobe spoken to calmly, accurately,
and with good intentions. If youwanna make your own commercial spot,
well you can do that too.During these pandemic days,
conventions and cannabis eventsare pretty poorly attended,
but podcasts listening is skyrocketingwith a commercial on shaping

(38:23):
fire.
You'll reach your customers in theprivacy of their headphones right now and
will continue to reach new listenersas they explore the shaping Fire Back
catalog of episodes againand again for years,
a spot on shaping fire costs lessthan a printed postcard per person.
And the shaping fire audience isfull of smart cannabis enthusiasts,

(38:47):
cultivators, and entrepreneurswho are always curious to learn.
Do yourself a solid and contact ustoday for rates on podcast and Instagram
advertising.
Email [e-mail] find out more.
Welcome back. You are listening toShaping Fire. I am your host Shang Los,

(39:07):
and my guest today is PhytocannabinoidResearcher State and Laws.
So during the first set, we,
we brought ourselves to an understandingof what neurogenesis is and how
c b, d and T H c and to a lesser degree,some other cannabinoids, we think,
um, encourage and, uh, causeneurogenesis to be, uh,

(39:27):
more robust. Now, here in set two,
we're gonna start talkingabout not how to, uh,
make these new, um, brain cells.
We're gonna talk about how to protectthe ones we've got. So, um, so staton,
you know, let's move on from neurogenesis.
Which components of cannabisresin can be considered

(39:50):
neuroprotectants,
and can you give us a generaldefinition of what that means?
Yep.
So if we get back to that abilityto protect a neuronal cell from,
um, cell death or from Misfunctioning,
there are many different constituents or

(40:13):
chemicals inside the cannabis plantthat could be made into a cannabis
resin that will protect neuronalcells from things like the
inflammatory response and, uh,
free radicals such asreactive oxygen species.
So they can either act as ananti-inflammatory compound or an

(40:34):
antioxidant to protect neuronal cells.
That actually, when you, when putthat, when put that way, you know,
the fact that they are components ofcannabis resin that decrease inflammation
and free radicals. That's a lotof different stuff actually.
Yeah. So that's, uh, that's the,
the characterization of one compoundand its ability to do multiple things

(41:00):
in different systemsor places in the body.
So, so whereas when itcomes to neurogenesis,
looking at the variety of all thecomponents of the resin, you know, it's,
it's primarily C B D,certainly some amount, T h c,
maybe a bit a few others. But whenwe talk about neuroprotection, um,

(41:21):
cannabis resins, it's justessentially a soup of,
of good things that actuallyprotect our brain in various ways.
Um.
Yeah, I mean,
if we start with the 545 identifiedcompounds and we break that into
140 terpenes, 104cannabinoids, 26 flavonoids,
20 steroids,

(41:42):
and a whole bunch of lignin still beingstill OIDs and who the hell knows what
else we're finding insidethis in the next 20 years. Uh,
and then we're mapping out their, uh,
potential to be neuroprotective, uh,through all the different mechanisms.
It gets really complex reallyquickly. But as a, a blob, uh,
cannabis resin, I think we, we'vegot a few, few things we can discuss.

(42:06):
Um, it seems to me like this would bevery, uh, since there are so many, uh,
participants in neuroprotection,
I would think that it would be hard toresearch them because you gotta tease 'em
apart and they're all working togetherin very high numbers and symbiotically.
Yeah.
Yeah. Um, alright, so, sowhen I asked you, you know,

(42:29):
what are they protectingus from, essentially the,
the first two you mentioned wasinflammation and, and free radicals.
Is that just like a huge bucket that,
that holds just about everything or arethere a couple others that you could
check off for us? Uh.
Well, we can, maybe if you want totalk a little bit about the mechanisms,

(42:49):
but if we were to look into diseasesand what type of proteins might
be causing these inflammatoryresponses and free radicals,
we could look at, uh, forAlzheimer's disease, amyloid,
beta and tau,
which are two proteins that areforming to create inflammation and free

(43:10):
radicals on the inside the cell,
and also inflammation outside thecell and how C B D can play a role
in reducing inflammation and also, uh,
helping with the maybeeven endogenous ability,
so the cell's ability to, uh,deal with these free radicals.

(43:32):
Mm-hmm. , um, these, um, the,
the, the, ah, I don't like putting all,
I don't like putting likeAlzheimer's and dementia all in the,
in the same basket, and I don't,I don't like to generalize them,
so I guess I'll just stickwith Alzheimer's. Um, um,
do we understand, um, thefunctioning at this point of,

(43:56):
of Alzheimer's in the brain where weare able to get down to the specific
mechanisms that, um, uh, of,
of cannabis neuroprotectionthat's working? You kind of, you gave me a little,
a little bait there with themechanism and, and honestly, if,
if you can make it, um, understandableto some degree to a lay person,
I'd like you to go through that.

(44:18):
Yeah.
So if we looked at a proteinin the brain that forms
naturally, amyloid beta is anaturally forming protein. It, it,
it's just part of everybody.
Everybody's got some of thatfloating around in the brain.
What happens is it begins toaggregate and when it aggregate,

(44:39):
it sort of clumps togetherand forms a plaque.
And when too many of theseplaques build up inside the brain,
they begin to form inflammation.
They also begin to irritate the cellsand they form reactive oxygen species
lipid peroxidation.Now, one mechanism that,
uh, C B D and some of the otherterpenes can do is actually to

(45:06):
stop the aggregation ofthis protein. Therefore,
it will reduce the cascadeof negative effects from this
protein by just becomingan anti atory agent.
Therefore, protecting thecells from cell death,
either from an inflammatory cascade

(45:27):
of chemicals or from anoverproduction of reactive oxygen
species, it all leads to cell death.
All right. Um, I've got twokind of corollary questions.
The first corollary question is, um, if,
if inflammation is, um,

(45:47):
trying to inhibit, um,neurogenesis and by using cannabis,
we're decreasing the inflammationand, and helping the neurogenesis,
you know,
I talk with so many patients that havegot all these different inflammatory
diseases from, you know,
autoimmune and rheumatoid arthritis and,you know, just like, you know, just,

(46:07):
just like there's the whole list ofthese inflammatory diseases that are so
common in our modern world. Uh, um,
will this body inflammation alsobe likely presenting in the brain?
And, and, you know, the,
the rheumatoid arthritis patient withall this body inflammation and all their
joints is probably alsohaving a difficult time, uh,

(46:31):
with neurogenesis,
but that's just not the part that'susually talked about in their disease.
Yeah, it's a really complex one. Uh, yeah,
I would say that if there are targetsinside certain cell families or
on the cell,
inside cell families that arethe same similar targets in the
brain cells, then we could say likeone target that c bds pretty good at,

(46:56):
uh, activating is the P P A R gamma
uh, receptor, which once it's hit,
it sort of blocks this cascade topro-inflammatory molecules such
as, you know, like the tumor necrosisfactor alpha, the interleukin one,
and then all these other cytokinereleased, which, you know, this does,

(47:19):
it is fueled by amyloid beta,
but there are other factors that go onin different sort of areas of the body
where this could be a target forC B D to reduce this inflammation.
Um, you know, for a lot oflay folks, um, you know,
neuroprotection and neuroplasticity, uh,
for a lot of folks are likesynonymous and they kind of use them

(47:39):
interchangeably. Um, uh, howmuch truth is there to that and,
and if they're not the same thing,which I'm assuming they're not, um,
would you explain what neuroplasticity is?
I can give it my best attemptwith saying neuroplasticity is the
ability for the brain to communicatein a simple way. Mm-hmm. .

(48:02):
So it's like, uh, uh, this
communication that we're using right nowon the phone, if it gets real staticky,
then it's not very plastic.We're not making connections,
we're not communicating.But if it's clear,
then we're having somegood neuroplasticity, which would involve function,

(48:23):
would involve, uh, communication.
It would also involvebeing able to, you know,
'cause even cells can sort ofchange their shape to allow them to
communicate better,
which might even fall in the formof resilience or neuroplasticity.
So I'd say it's function,

(48:43):
communication and adaption todifferent things that we learn
or, you know,
I guess we're still trying to map thatone out, but if the cell is healthy,
it's gonna function better, thereforeob more plastic or neuro neuroplastic.
Using layman's terms.
I can see how cannabidiol wouldadd to neuroplasticity since we

(49:08):
often think of C B D asa signaling molecule,
and if at the heart of neuroplasticityis community communication and the
ability to communicate, youknow, throughout the cells,
it would seem that adding moreC B D, um, would be able to,
you know, encourage, uh,
more and more rapid communicationbetween the different,

(49:31):
um, you know, neurons. Yeah.
Yeah. And one, uh,
molecule in particular that I findinteresting with CBDs abilities
is to enhance acetylcholine,
which is sort of like the mastercommunicator between, you know,
neurons and there's a particularenzyme acetyl colter raise

(49:53):
that breaks down acetylcholine. And, um,
if we can block acetyl colterraise to a certain extent,
we can enhance the abilityof acetylcholine in its
communication between cell and cell,
which is actually some of the adtherapeutics drugs that are out there.
Do so, and from thatfunctional standpoint,

(50:14):
C B D does in enhance thecommunication or the neuroplasticity
between the cells.
So if, if we're wantingto use cannabinoids to increase our neuroplasticity,
can you give me a couple of examples of,
of things that either a,
things that we might do that mightdecrease the neuroplasticity,

(50:35):
or if you wanna keep it onthe molecular level, the,
the kinds of things that caninhibit our neuroplasticity?
Uh, well,
there's lots of toxins that will get inthere and block the communication. I,
I think if you overdue t h c,
it can somewhat crowd thecommunication line or just, you know,

(50:58):
stop it wanting tofunction altogether, uh,
which has its benefitand, and some degree. Uh,
but if we wanted toenhance the communication,
then we gotta make these cellsfunctional and as healthy as possible.
So there's a lot of factors that gointo how to enhance this communication.
So it sounds like we're talkingabout like, you know, um, you know,

(51:21):
everything en environmentaltoxins, um, you know,
probably a lot of differenttypes of pharmaceuticals, um, alcohol, um, you know,
huffing, acetone, you know,there's probably lots,
all all of these things probably ha uh,
would impact neuroplasticity indifferent ways. So that we're kind of,
we're kind of back to the placewhere we were when first set we're,

(51:44):
where we're talking about, you know,
good living helps all of thisstuff we're talking about.
For sure. Mm-hmm.
. All right. So, um, let's,
let's now focus on the impacts ofa brain, um, without neurogenesis,
which will kind of set us up for the thirdset, talking about, um, um, you know,
some of these ways that, thatwe can help patients. So, um,

(52:08):
I've always just assumed that, um,
decreasing neurogenesis isgenerally a part of aging,
and based on what we just said,
if we're doing more thingsthat age us, like, you know,
smoking tobacco anddrinking and, and you know,
poor sleep and all thesethings that, that, um,

(52:29):
these will all impedeneurogenesis, um, over time. Um,
is, is, is that true or is,
is there a particular mechanism atthe heart of it that I'm missing?
No, that in general,
I'm going to agree with youthat just aging itself will
promote the degeneration of, uh,

(52:52):
neuronal cells and inhibitthe ability for neurogenesis
to occur. But if welooked at, say, a toxin,
like even alcohol,
CBDs comes in there andwe've seen that it can, one,
reduce your cravings to takeit, and two can also protect,

(53:12):
uh,
the liver from inflammation and evenbrain cells from oxidative stress.
Uh, so, you know,
to some extent there issome things we can't avoid,
but if CVDs coming around and,you know, showing us that, hey,
this can show some neuroprotectionalongside of a neurotoxin,

(53:34):
then, uh, we've, we havea, at least some defense,
uh, that we can useoutside of just, you know,
lifestyle.
Right on. Great. Well, I don'tthink we need to, um, to,
to bang on the eat hold foods, getexercise live, well drum anymore.

(53:55):
Um, I think we're pretty much set. So,so dear listener, um, stay with us.
We're gonna take our, uh, second shortbreak, but when we come back on, uh,
for set three, we're gonnatalk, uh, specifically, um,
about Alzheimer's and dementiaand also longevity. So if,
uh, if you, you know, if you'represently pretty healthy,
but you just wanna stay that way, um, uh,

(54:16):
stick around to learn moreabout that as well. So, uh,
you are listening to Shaping Fire andmy guest today is Phytocannabinoid
researcher state and laws.
There are so many seed banks nowadaysthat you really have options and who to
choose. Not only that, ifyou pick the wrong seed bank,
you could be in for a really sketchy ride.

(54:37):
And that's only one of the reasons Irecommend Gas Lamp Seeds to my friends
and listeners who arelooking for a seed bank.
You probably already know gaslamp seeds as Hera Genetics,
Hera recently changed theirname to Gas lamp Seeds.
Gas Lamp Seeds is not just anotherSeed Bank Gas lamp is a female operated

(54:57):
boutique cannabis genetics provider thatonly sells thoughtfully curated seeds
from the top names in cannabis breeding.
With over 60 breeders and over athousand strains to choose from,
you will certainly findsomething you'll love.
Gas lamp Seeds has something for everyone.
With over 650 feminized strains,
300 regular varieties, and over200 auto flowers to choose from.

(55:21):
Names you know you can trust, likecompound genetics, Humboldt Seed Company,
night Owl in-house, fastbuds, no automatics and ethos.
And we both know that there are otherseed banks who will take your money but
have no customer service.
I invited Gas Lamp to advertise onshaping fire after hearing so many good

(55:41):
stories about them from my friends,
they have a plus customer servicewith lightning fast response times.
In most cases,
Helene and Kaitlyn will get yourorder out the same day you place it.
Most seed banks are simply not thisorganized or interested in getting your
seeds to you so fast,but gas lamp seeds cares.
You even get free seeds with everyorder. Helene and Kaitlyn get it.

(56:06):
They have been in the cannabisgrowing scene for over a decade.
Want some extra freebies?
Use the code shaping fireall one word at checkout,
and they will give you an additionalset of gas lamp provided freebies.
That's an extra $30 in free seeds.
Buy seeds from good folks who will sendyou great seeds reliably every time.

(56:29):
Visit gas lamp seeds.com today.
That's gas lamp seeds.
One of the reasons why no-till cannabisgrowing is so valued by farmers is
because the mycelium networks in the soilremain established from year to year.
And we know these fungal networks areessential because they're the nutrient

(56:50):
superhighways that extend far and widein the substrate to feed your plants.
The trouble with growing in new livingsoils or blended cocoa substrates is that
it takes most of the plant's life justto create these mycelium highways,
dyno, myco, endo,
microrisal fungi inoculate reduces thattime and gets your plant eating a wider

(57:11):
array of nutrients faster.
And it's three times the concentrationof the other popular brand in the US at
900 Propagules pergram of twofungal species selected specifically
for cannabis cultivation.
Dyna Myco is the result of 30 yearsof research and trials at the Ani
Agricultural Research Institute in Israel.
It has also been vigorously trialed bycannabis and food growers across the us.

(57:36):
Dynami is now available at growth shopsand on Amazon in the United States.
I love using Dyna Mico to both speed upthe growth of the mycelium networks in
the soil, but also as a bios stimulantto make clone cuttings more vir.
You can see side-by-side showing thecomparative growth on their Instagram at
Dyno Mico.
If you demand reliable growing resultsand appreciate the importance of an

(57:59):
active root zone increating a thriving plant,
I encourage you to check out dyno mico.comand use the store locator to find out
where you can get yours.
That's d y N O m Y c o.com
shaping.
Fire listeners can get 10% offany size of Dyna Myco on Amazon or

(58:19):
dynami o.com by using thediscount code shaping fire,
one word no caps. Whether you arestarting with new beds or pots,
or if you want to add somezinging to tired soil,
choose dynami o to maximizeyour plant's potential dyno,
endo, microrisal inoculant.
Sometimes the topics I wanna share withyou are far too brief for an entire

(58:42):
shaping fire episode. In thoseinstances, I post them to Instagram.
I invite you to follow my two Instagramprofiles and participate online the
Shaping Fire. Instagram has follow-upposts to shaping fire episodes,
growing and processing best practices,product trials, and of course,
gorgeous flower photos.
The Shang Lo Instagram follows Mytravels on cannabis garden tours,

(59:05):
my successes and failuresin my own garden,
insights and best practices from personalgrows everywhere and always gorgeous
flower photos on both profiles.
The emphasis is on sharing what I'velearned in a way that you can replicate it
in your own garden, your own hash lab,or for your own canna Apathic health.
So I encourage you to follow at ShapingFire and at Shang los and join our

(59:28):
online community on Instagram. Welcomeback. You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host Shang Los,
and my guest today is PhytoCannabinoid Researcher State and Laws.
So here we are in the bigthird set. So Staton, you know,
at the end of last set wewere talking about how aging
and, you know, dependingon how fast we're aging,

(59:50):
because of how much we're riding ourbody, hard and abusing it, you know,
all of those things willdecrease our neurogenesis and,
uh, C b,
D and t H C and some other cannabinoidscan help support neurogenesis.
But, um, you know, there's only somuch can be done if, if, you know,
we're our body is aging right,

(01:00:11):
either on its own or becausewe've been living hard.
So would you explain a bit about, um, uh,
you know, how this lackof neurogenesis, um,
well, actually before we go to that, Iwant to ask a, a definitional question.
You know, so, so often people are,
they'll say something andthen they'll just say,

(01:00:32):
Alzheimer's disease and dementia.Like, like they'll group them together,
but they won't put them in thesame bucket. So if you could,
would you just give us a briefunderstanding of what's different between
Alzheimer's and dementia?Because as a lay person,
they kind of sound the same to me, butpeople always talk about them separately.
So I'm guessing there's adifference that I just don't know.

(01:00:56):
Yeah.
So dementia can becategorized into different
forms, but Alzheimer's disease isthe most common form of dementia.
So if you were to say dementiais where these protein aggregates
start to form and cause memory loss or

(01:01:17):
body
dysfunction and how it operates as it
progresses,
then it might form into aspecific type of disease
from dementia called Alzheimer's disease.
Alzheimer's disease is kind of theend of the road of a form of dementia.
It's the most common form.Mm-hmm. .

(01:01:39):
So, um, we talked a little bit aboutthe mechanics, uh, last, uh, set about,
you know, precursors to dementiaand then Alzheimer's and you know,
how it, how it progresses. Um, uh, and,and now you're talking about, you know,
the d the different, um, uh, symptomsof the ailments, you know, um, um,
uh, forgetting things and um, uh, uh,

(01:02:03):
the changing relationship with one's body.
Can you just pick oneor two of those and, um,
and explain to us the mechanics ofwhat's going on with Alzheimer's to cause
the symptoms? So,
so moving from whatcauses Alzheimer's two,
what does Alzheimer's cause?

(01:02:25):
Okay, well,
I'll go with just the bigdefinition and filter it
down to what it, what happensmm-hmm. .
So if we have these naturalamyloid beta proteins in the
brain and they form aggregates,
then at the same sort of time insidethe cell are these neuro ular tangles,

(01:02:46):
which consists of the hyperphospholate tau protein.
Now this is partnered, uh,
this deteriorate deleterious propart process is partnered with
reactive oxygen species,reactive nitrogen species,
which is your oxidative stress,mitochondria damage, uh,
redu that's inside thecell, outside the cell.

(01:03:08):
Reduction of acetylcholine levels,
which we're talking about plays arole in the neuroplasticity or the
communication.
Then these networks beginto lose their connections.
So misplaced networks among neurons insidethe hippocampus, we've seen that the,
it actually shrinks and we getthis chronic neuroinflammation

(01:03:29):
causing memory loss and cognitiveimpairment. Eventually, we can't even,
you know, take care ofourselves in the end.
Um, this idea of misplaced networks, um,
that's a really, um,
that's a very efficient phrase becauseit really does describe what I experience

(01:03:51):
when interacting with,um, Alzheimer's patients.
Um,
and also there's something about thatphrase that captures some of the sadness
of it too.
Yeah, it's, uh, it can, you know,
really take you down a road thataffects you and your family members.

(01:04:12):
So, alright, so,
so this brings us to a placewhere we know neurogenesis and
neuroprotection are essential for ourbrain to function properly over the long
term. And when it slows down with age,
it leaves us open to debilitatedebilitating brain issues.
And we also know from firstset that the cannabis compound,

(01:04:34):
that the cannabis components, um,
can support neurogenesisand neuroprotection. So,
so obviously we've made the case liketake some cannabis, right? So, so, um,
so I'm gonna ask you about, um,
some cannabis protocols that you thinkthat might make sense for someone
who, who still has brain healthand wants to keep it. And then,

(01:04:57):
and then I'll kind of reapproach thequestion again for somebody who's already
experiencing, um, you know, problems. So,
so I guess this first one, let's,let's throw this kind of in the,
in the longevity, uh, bucket. Um,
I've been doing a lot ofthinking about cannabinoids as a,
as a longevity tool and, and itreally seems to work. So, so,

(01:05:18):
so let's say that like, you know,
even though we know that everybody'sgot something wrong with them, um, well,
let's say that we're talking about aperson who's generally brain healthy and
they're not, they're not experiencingdementia or Alzheimer's at this point,
but, but they don't, they don'twant to, right? And, and, or, or,
or maybe they're like me. And, and someof that stuff runs in the family, right?
So I wanna, I wanna bio protectagainst it in advance. So,

(01:05:42):
so what would you see as, um, a, a,
a dosing protocol for somebodywho is thinking more about, um,
uh, longevity and, um, and, and, you know,
long-term health, um,
before something a braindisease has has shown

(01:06:05):
up?
Um, I guess we've gotta always throwthat disclaimer, alert out, yes.
This is not medical.See your medical doctor.
Mm-hmm. Or, uh,
and make sure you see your physphysician before taking a substance
that is new to your body.
So, well, thank you for that's put thatyou beat me to it. Sat out on the table.

(01:06:27):
That's usually my job.You got it. Thank you.
. Um,
and are we talking allcannabinoids or just c b D?
Um, well, um, I wouldlike to hear what your,
your blend would be if you'regonna, if you, you know,
maybe you're gonna tell me that,um, you know, a a 20 to one of a,
of a certain potency taken everyday or twice a day, um, you know,

(01:06:48):
at this point, um,
you have got all of thisvarious information already preexisting in your head.
And so if,
if you were to put together a bestpractice for a cannabinoid supplement
to preserve, uh, brain health,what would it look like?
I would probably start with just c BD personally. Mm-hmm. ,

(01:07:09):
uh, if you'd never used cannabis,you're like, I've heard cannabis, uh,
is gonna help my brain as I age now,
I mean, even we go back 20 years fromnow, that was the, you know, talking,
you know, the, the Devil's Tobaccomm-hmm. . And, uh,
now we're looking at it asa way to preserve our brain.

(01:07:31):
So let's start with C B Dbecause it's probably the safest.
And I would almost have to say that ifwe're going to even ask this question,
then we'd probably be concerned
around the age of 30 to 40 if we're,if we're still healthy, you know,
this is around about 65 is whendementia like symptoms usually present

(01:07:52):
themselves.
So we're beyond that adolescentphase where T H C is gonna
be as harmful as what we've experienced.
And so we're in that phasewhere either C B D or T H
C could be helpful. So Iwould say starting with C B D,
'cause it can start to maybehelp anandamide do its,

(01:08:13):
uh, do its thing with theCB one and CB two receptors,
plus there's some other benefitsthat come along with C B D. Now,
if C B D is not effectiveand you slowly increment
your dose and you're, you know,
taking a plus a hundred milligramsa day and still not seeing anything,

(01:08:33):
then I would start adding T HC and, and like you're saying,
maybe starting at that 20 milligramsof C B D to one milligram of
T H C, and maybe we start,then we go 20 to five,
20 milligrams of C B D to fivemilligrams of T H C or maybe even
go 50 C B D to five T H C.

(01:08:57):
But I would slowly increment,especially T H C is,
and even more specifically if you havean underlying psychiatric condition with
T H C, because it is quite psychoactive.
And then finding that that rightmilligram dosage and, you know,
uh, uh,
T H C has its own unique benefitsall in its own right. Uh,

(01:09:19):
with helping the brain in manydifferent facets outside of what we've
mapped out pharmacologically,I believe. So start slow,
see which one works best for you,
and generally having a higheramount of C B D to T H C.
Right on. That's great.And, and you know, if, if,

(01:09:41):
if you're at home listening to this andyou're thinking about putting together,
you know, a protocol ofyour own and, you know,
maybe you are fortunate enough to be in,in a location where you can, you know,
grow your, you know, high C B D,
very low T H c, um, you know,
plant some kind of high C B D hemp plantor something and make your own R S o,

(01:10:02):
um, that, that's very fortunate.And, and don't be shy about,
um, you know, spiking it with CB D isolate because, you know,
you can get really high quality C B Disolate out there right now. You know,
you gotta shop around, you know, fiyou know, find, find somebody who,
who stands by their cleanlinessand their tests, you know, like,

(01:10:22):
like a future compounds orsomebody. And, um, and then,
and then don't be shy to spikewith that to get up to the,
the C B D numbers thatyou're looking for. Um,
because for,
for most folks growing your own highC B D hemp plants and processing
it all, um, is just notgoing to provide you with,

(01:10:46):
you know, a hundred milligrams of CB D A day plus T H c. It's, you know,
you know, if you've got a bigfarm like, you know, may maybe,
maybe you're that much of a baller, butfor most people, that's not the case.
And um, and you know, I used to talktrash about this approach, but, you know,
I think that part of what's importantis that we all remain active learners,
right? And, and while I wouldlove there to be, um, so much,

(01:11:09):
you know, c b D resin availableto everyone at cheap prices that,
that we could only use that well, youknow, when it comes to our health, um,
you know, sometimes, sometimes we haveto do it, um, in the way that works. Um,
not, not the way that we necessarilywant it to be. So, so anyway, um,
I just share that because I had toturn a corner about using isolate for

(01:11:31):
some applications and, and, um,
it wouldn't surprise me if some of youwere the same way. So, so there's that.
Alright, so, um, so, sonow that we've got this,
so thank you for thisprotocol. This was, this was a,
this was exactly the level of specificitythat I was looking for staton. So,
so let's talk about a, um, a, aa different protocol because now,

(01:11:53):
and, and who knows, it might be,
it might end up being thesame protocol for you, but,
but now we're talking about somebodywho is an Alzheimer's patient
and you know, they've,
they've already been talking to theirfamily that they wanted to try this and
their family is in support of it, Ihope, and everybody's working together.
Um,
would you make any changes to thisprotocol to somebody who's already

(01:12:17):
experiencing symptoms,who's already on this path?
Not really. Mm-hmm. , um,
'cause we just don't know howthey're gonna respond to either
compound C B D or T H C or the plethoraof other phytochemicals in this
extract. But, you know, if,

(01:12:38):
if one's extremelyirritable, then you know,
a faster acting lower dosage inwhat you can get your hands on, um,
approach could be T h C,uh, I mean, because it's,
it's a tricky question to addressthis with so many different countries,
laws states and, uh,

(01:12:59):
financial burdens that gettinga hold of these compounds will,
will do for that particularpatient. So, I mean,
it's easy to recommend if, if you'rein a state that it's highly available,
but it's even more difficult torecommend when one can't even afford the
medication, especially when you'resaying, oh, you know, you might,

(01:13:19):
you need to be taking around a hundredmilligrams of C B D to get any sort of
effect from it when, youknow, like here in Australia,
the average milligram is about 10 cents,
so you're looking at a hundred dollarsa day for a medication that might work.
Versus if you can getyour hands on, you know,
a hundred milligrams A T H Cand divide that between 10 days,

(01:13:41):
you might be getting more, uh,
therapeutic targets tickedby a less expensive,
Uh, protocol. So once again,
con consult your medical doctor first,and depending on where you live, it, it,
it could somewhat dictatethis protocol. So start slow

(01:14:04):
CCB d's a little bit safer, butyou might work better with T H C,
especially in later stagesof Alzheimer's disease.
Right on. So, um, whatwill our goal be, um,
when the patient or, uh, is taking the,
the protocol, um, with, with neurogenesis?

(01:14:26):
Are we, are we just trying to like,
hold the line or is it possiblethat we can improve the patient?
Um, because, uh, I believe thatthe, the case is, is that when we,
when we lose, um, neuron producing,
when, when, when our,
when our neurogenesis flags and slows, um,

(01:14:50):
it's, it's, it's harder tocreate new cells that do this.
And so what we're just trying to do is,
is hold the line on ourability to produce to
cause neurogenesis where it is andjust decrease the, the sliding of it.
Um, is that a, is that a correctunderstanding where, where,

(01:15:10):
when we're supporting neurogenesis,
we're just gonna be supportingwhere we're not, where we're at,
we're not necessarily going tobe improving it in such a way
where, um, you know, wecould pull somebody back from the grips of Alzheimer's,
for example?
Yeah. Uh, if I've always got hopethat no matter who you are out there,

(01:15:32):
you're going to have the ability tocreate more brain cells in the right
environment, let's just say through yourlifestyle and through maybe some, uh,
supplements that includes cannabinoidsin the word supplements to
your protocol. Now, ifyou've got enough, uh,
neurons that are functioning correctlyin your goal here is to preserve these

(01:15:56):
neurons, we're looking at, you know,
there's some potential forthese cannabinoids to help these
neurons from being affected bywhether it is reactive oxygen species,
these cytokine stormsfrom inflammation, uh,
and also from acetyl colter raisefrom breaking down acetylcholine.
So with these exogenous cannabinoids,

(01:16:19):
they might help with our endogenousOIDs such as C B D and anandamide,
or T H C might go in there andhelp stimulate some more, uh,
proliferation of these brain cells,
and they might protect the ones that wealready have and the functioning or the
neuroplasticity of thesebrain cells. So yes,

(01:16:39):
there's a lot of potential here forthis to help on a cellular level,
and then also on a behaviorlevel of why these, uh,
symptoms of,
let's just say Alzheimer's diseasecould be modified by these chemicals.
Right on. I follow that. Okay.So let's, let's take, um,

(01:16:59):
a step back one more time, uh, aswe're wrapping up here. Um, so,
so we've, we've talked aboutneurogenesis and neuro protections. We,
we understand how they work,
we understand how our ability todo that ourselves worsens with age
and how we can supportthat system by using, um,

(01:17:20):
by using cannabinoids.Excellent. And, and we've,
we've looked at theapplications for, you know,
just regular folks whowanna take it as at,
as a supplement and the very similarprotocol for folks who are actually,
um,
showing the impacts of thelack of neurogenesis in things like Alzheimer's and
dementia. So, so withall of that, you know, I,

(01:17:42):
I've not really seen itcalled this, but for me,
that sounds like we'redescribing C B D as a nootropic.
Do you consider c b Dbe to be a new tropic?
Yeah. If it can improve cognitivefunction, then it would be, uh,
I guess fitting underneath theumbrella of a new tropic. Yeah.
That's, that's the way I see it too. And,

(01:18:03):
and so far I haven't seen itmarketed that way, but, um, it's,
it's interesting 'cause like nootropicsare like super hip for the, you know,
the longevity folks and,
and C B D is hip with adifferent group of people,
but I haven't seen anybody like kind ofcross market to both groups and call it
a nootropic. So, um, what I'd like to,

(01:18:24):
to end the episode with, uh,Satan is that I know that,
uh, you are, um, you know,
you are a research scientist andyou are looking at the specifics of
neurogenesis, but I alsoknow that, um, you know,
you are a whole food advocateand you are a healer and,

(01:18:48):
and you know, you teach, uh, yoga and,and so you're kind of a, you know,
a holistically minded researcherwho's, you know, doing this,
this balance between holistic mindset and,
you know, western medicine,
which is gotta be a very interestingbalancing act for you. Um, but, um,

(01:19:09):
because you think aboutthis all the time, um,
I'd just like to like kind of hand youthe mic and have you kind of take us out
of, um, you know,
what advice would yougive to a human who wants
to keep their brain, um,
functioning as far into life asthey can with all the benefits of

(01:19:31):
neurogenesis and neuroprotection.
Would you just describesome of the, you know,
lifestyle attributes that thisperson may want to consider beyond
simply taking a C a A A C B Dand potentially t h c protocol as
we've described?
So,

(01:19:51):
are we addressing just the generalperson that's after mine longevity?
Are we addressing the Alzheimer's patient?
I, I would say just a regular person.Um, somebody, somebody who's not, uh, uh,
you know, not experiencingAlzheimer's yet. Um, just,
just somebody who wants to, youknow, keep their brain healthy.
This is a general brain health question.

(01:20:12):
Okay, well, we'll break it downwith, uh, the necessities again.
So we gotta have oxygen, water,
and nutrients. So oxygen with, uh,
breathing, we all canlearn to breathe better.
That's the truth. How we breathe.

(01:20:32):
You can get into the anatomy, but simply,
if there was one word I would say touse and to learn would be UJA breathing,
and that's a yoga concept. Ican get into that if you'd like,
but basically it's,
it's a way to take air in and outtathe body with more efficiency.
Maybe just spell it. 'causewe, we won't go into it today,
but people might wanna look it up.

(01:20:53):
I think it's u uh, .
Sorry, I didn't mean to.
Do that to you. U j Yeah, it's funny.
U double j a y i.
Great.
Uh, second. So what goes withyoga course is posture, uh,
learning how to lengthenthe spine, keep it straight,
which supports the blood flow or thenutrients into and out of the brain,

(01:21:17):
which the next one would be understandinga little bit about the lymphatic
system and helping the clearance oftoo much of these aggregate proteins
throughout life. So it'salso making sure your body,
let's just call it clean and it, uh,
is functioning to deliver nutrients,but also to remove or detoxify,
uh,
these potential proteinsin the brain that are gonna

(01:21:42):
mess you up, which is whatsome of the, you know,
ad drugs recently come out to do,is actually to remove the proteins.
So we've got, uh,breath, good clean water,
um, and which considers, you know,
some electrolytes if it came from a reallyclean natural source to make cellular

(01:22:02):
hydrated have good posture.And then we get into,
you know,
doing our best to not exposeourselves to too many toxins.
So trying to live in a naturalplace, trying to get outside.
And if we looked at whatcan stimulate neurogenesis,
I think probably one of thebiggest ones is exercise. And, uh,

(01:22:26):
you know, exercise produces more ofthat brain deprived nootropic factor.
It also creates moreendogenous cannabinoids.
So those two combined together iswhat helps the cells proliferate.
Then we can kind of get into thatneuroprotection side with, uh,
some of the protocols of oursupplements that will help protect

(01:22:49):
us. So when we get into nutrients,I'd probably be looking at, uh,
your meg omega threes, like Ethree live, which is a, it's, um,
uh, an algae that's quitehigh in D h a and e p a,
which is known to support brain function.
I look at making sure the diet isactually extremely high in plant secondary
metabolites, which those includea big pool of the polyphenols.

(01:23:11):
And if we looked at those specifically,
it would be the flavonoidsand even maybe look at getting
the microbiome up as faras the good bacteria.
So making sure you takesome form of a probiotic
on a regular basis, whether it'sthrough sauerkraut and the diet,

(01:23:31):
or whether it's through, you know, active.
Yogurt or something.
Yeah, something like that. Andmaintaining that with lots of fiber.
So you got your pre, which isyour fiber, you got your pro,
which is your bacteria,
and you combine those two togetherand you get these postbiotics.
So having a healthy microbiome,these molecule or not molecules,

(01:23:52):
these bacteria in your gut will chewup fiber and basically create these
postbiotics,
which are nutrients that they create thatare good for the brain as well. Like,
for example,
a lot of these flavonoids or polyphenolsthat we consume don't actually get into
the body till they hitthe, the gut bacteria,
and then they get turned into thingsthat are gonna be good for us. So,

(01:24:15):
uh, and then, you know,being positive about life,
I think cop probably could be the numberone thing to have a bit of a passion
for whatever you're doing inlife, whether it's doing the,
the laundry or the dishes, just, you know,
being positive through the whole process,
having a will to live willultimately expand your lifespan.

(01:24:36):
So keeping yourself healthy and feelingas good as possible definitely helps
with that will to live.
Excellent. I think that's a greatlist. And, and I gotta admit,
some of it isn't, you know,like the exercise, um, isn't too surprising, but to,
um, to see it put together in such aelegant package with explanations about
why, um, I, I always,

(01:24:57):
I always find it easier to do the healthychoice when I understand why I'm doing
it instead of just like feeling like I'mnot allowed to have something anymore,
which, um, doesn't usually work supergreat for me, , but, um, but, but,
but getting inspiration to gotowards something I do want,
like long-term brain health, especiallysince I've already had a brain injury,

(01:25:18):
I don't really have anything to, youknow, I don't have much left to lose,
you know, I need to, I need to protectwhat I've got. So, so anyway, um,
state you, you've just beenlike absolutely delightful.
I appreciate your ability totranslate, um, a lot of this,
you know, hardcore bench sciencethat you do, um, you know,
at the university, uh, to translateit into lay language so that,

(01:25:43):
um, you know, you can bringsome of, um, you know,
some of our lay people along with thecitizen scientists, along with, you know,
the caregivers and the doctors wholisten to show you kind of like provide,
um, in, in information in a way that,that we get to bring everybody along and,
um, you know, that's not a skillthat everybody's got. So, um,

(01:26:04):
I appreciate that skill in youand, um, your good heart and your,
your wanting to, um, you know,uh, be here and, and help.
And also your willingness, like you're,
you're doing this interview in the future,you know, since you're in Australia,
you're actually doing thisinterview tomorrow while I'm,
I'm having this interview tonight, so I,
I appreciate a little bitof time travel as well.

(01:26:25):
So thank you so much forbeing here on Shaping Fire.
Well, it's been a pleasure and Ihope all the listeners out there, uh,
benefit from everything that's beendiscussed over the past 90 minutes,
and we keep, uh, transversing into thefuture to help each other understand,
you know,
how natural plants and behaviorand lifestyle modifications

(01:26:47):
can all benefit no matter whatstage of, uh, life that we're at.
Excellent. Thank you somuch. So dear listener,
if you want to get incontact with state and laws,
there is one way to do itand you can reach him, uh,
through his LinkedIn profile.Now, be realistic about the time.
It might take him to get back withyou because he is actively, you know,

(01:27:09):
working at the university andhe's in the lab every day.
He's not like other folks who are sittingat their computer all day or have PR
departments to get back withyou. You know, if, if, if you,
if you have a question, ifyou want to connect or, or,
or especially if you have anopportunity for him, um, you can, uh,
reach out to him, um, through hisLinkedIn. I also wanna, uh, uh,

(01:27:29):
plug two other episodes because if youlike this idea of, of longevity and,
uh, nootropics, uh, you probablyalso want to check out, uh,
the last episode of shaping Firenumber 1 0 8 on Longevity and the
Endocannabinoid Systemwith Hunter Land. Um,
we talk a lot about keepingyour endocannabinoid, uh,
system functioning over the arc of yourlife and things that you can do to keep

(01:27:53):
your endocannabinoid system functioningover time. Um, and then also, uh,
shaping Fire, episode 36,which goes all the way back,
like three or four years ago now. Um,
and that is with the Fantastic RobertLitman. And this is an episode on,
on Breathing, on cannabis andBreathing. And I gotta say,
I think it's one of my favorite shapingfire episodes because of the uniqueness

(01:28:14):
and usefulness of the information.He talks about, you know,
how we breathe the common mistakespeople make in breathing, um,
how breathing in, um, uh,
combusted smoke and vaporizing,you know, how that functions. And,
um, and, and, uh, herehe, he offers some, uh,

(01:28:36):
exercises to, uh, improve your breathingas well. It's, it's a very, uh,
delightful episode. And that'sShaping Fire, episode 36.
You can find more episodes of theShaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the
[e-mail] andwherever you get your podcasts.
If you enjoyed the show,
we'd really appreciate it if you wouldleave a positive review of the podcast.
Wherever you download your view will helpothers find the show so they can enjoy

(01:29:00):
it too. On the Shaping Fire website,
you can also subscribe to the newsletterfor insights into the latest cannabis
news exclusive videos and giveawayson the Shaping Fire website.
You also find transcriptsof today's podcast as well.
Be sure to follow on Instagram.
For all original content not found onthe podcast that's at Shaping Fire and
at shang los on Instagram,

(01:29:22):
be sure to check out the Shaping FireYouTube channel for exclusive interviews,
farm tours, and cannabis lectures.
Does your company wanna reach ournational audience of cannabis enthusiasts?
Email [e-mail] find out how.
Thanks for listening to ShapingFire. I've been your host, Shang Los.