EP110 Delta-8 THC: The Troublesome Cannabinoid with guest Dr. Ethan Russo

Delta-8 THC is everywhere, but the scientific understanding of it is not. On this episode of Shaping Fire, host Shango Los welcomes back neuroscientist and renown cannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo to discuss the medicinal benefits of Delta-8 THC, its history, the challenges of synthesizing clean Delta-8 THC, and the negative impacts that synthetic Delta-8 THC is having throughout the cannabis community.

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
There are over a hundred cannabinoidsfound in cannabis and more continue to be
discovered. Each one has apersonality, each has particular uses,
and when they all work together,they are at their best.
Federal cannabinoid prohibition influencesthe cannabis market in ways that
pervert it to the detriment of everybody.
Even though Delta eight t h c iswidespread throughout the country and many

(00:28):
profess that it was madelegal by the US Farm Bill,
it is not actually a legal cannabinoid.It's illegality is just not enforced.
But that's not what we'recovering during today's show.
If you'd like to hear expertlegal analysis on that topic,
check out the new video clip from lastweek's Credo Science Delta eight webinar
on the Shaping Fire YouTube channelwith attorney Lauren Ruddick.

(00:51):
During the webinarhighlights you'll find there,
she explains in detail the legal standingof Delta eight and clarifies many of
the misconceptions andconsider subscribing to the Credo Science Newsletter to
find out about their upcomingcannabis science webinars.
Links to all of these are on the ShapingFire website page for this episode.
Today's episode is about the Deltaeight molecule itself, how it functions,

(01:14):
how it doesn't function, and whyhow it's made is so important.
If you wanna learn about cannabis healthcultivation and technique efficiently
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(01:34):
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(01:55):
Welcome to episode 110. You are listeningto Shaping Fire, and I'm your host,
Shang Los. My guesttoday is Dr. Ethan Russo.
Ethan Russo is a boardcertified neurologist and former senior medical advisor
to GW Pharmaceuticals.
He's served as study physician to GWPharmaceuticals for three phase three

(02:15):
clinical trials of SAV effects.
He has held faculty appointmentsin pharmaceutical sciences at the University of
Montana in medicine at theUniversity of Washington,
and has visiting professor atthe Chinese Academy of Sciences.
He has been president of the InternationalCannabinoid Research Society and is
former chairman of the InternationalAssociation for Cannabinoid Medicines.

(02:35):
In 1995,
he pursued a three month sabbaticaldoing ethno botanical research with
indigenous people in Peru.
He's author of several books of cannabismedicine and has published over 30
articles in neurology, painmanagement, cannabis, and ethno botany.
Dr. Russo has joined usseveral times on shaping fire,

(02:55):
episode 22 on treating traumatic braininjury with, with Cannabis and Mushrooms.
Episodes 11 and 27 about his famousresearch papers on cannabinoids and
terpenoids. Episode number 67,
about treating migraineswith mushrooms and cannabis,
episode 80 on cannabishyperemesis syndrome,
episode 83 on CannabigerolC B G episode 1 0 3,

(03:18):
regarding the life's work ofDr. Raphael Ulam, and of course,
the shaping Fire sessions onShaping Fire's YouTube channel.
During the first set, today,
we will take a look at the molecularnature of Delta eight T H C and its
historical milestones. In the second set,
we will learn about how Delta eightis synthesized and how that creates
complications for use of thiscannabinoid. And during the third set,

(03:41):
we will explore some of the lesserdiscussed attributes of Delta eight,
including its propensity to cause faileddrug tests and cannabinoid hyperemesis
syndrome. Welcome backto Shaping Fire, Ethan.
That's nice to be here.
You know,
I had another first this morning whilesetting up here in my office studio. Uh,
usually I can leave a window crackedfacing the water for, you know,

(04:04):
the good salt water smells.
But today I had to close it becausethe sea lions have decided to have
a party on the beach belowmy house, and, you know,
you can just hear them honking away.And, um, I did a little test and, uh,
you could actually hear themand I thought, well, that would,
that would give people a littlebit of sense of place, but,
but also probably not appropriate. And,

(04:26):
and this isn't the first time thatanimals have played a role in one of your
shaping fire episodes. You mayrecall that five years ago, I,
we were recording and I had to askyou to hold for a moment because my
neighbor's cows had found their wayinto my yard and were eating, um,
all of, uh, my, my tulips .
And so you were kind to wait for a minutewhile I chewed them out of the yard.

(04:50):
Yeah. And the animals, uh, wanttheir voices heard .
Totally. And, and this island'sdefinitely theirs as as much of them,
or maybe even more than ours. So anyway,so, um, thank you for being here,
Ethan. And, um, let's get startedright off at the top. You know,
so many people refer to, uh,
Delta eight tetrahydrocannabinolas you know, D eight Delta eight.

(05:12):
Everybody wants to shorten it, andeveryone just kind of like assumes they,
you know, other people know whatit is. But, but since this is a,
this is a good, uh, you know,
primer on what's going on withDelta eight in the cannabis scene,
I think we should start there.
So would you please describewhat Delta eight is chemically?
Sure. So this is a normal trace, uh,

(05:35):
compound found in cannabis.
It differs from the moreexpected delta nine T H c,
only in the fact that a doublebond in one of the rings is in a
different position. Um, interestingly,
apparently the plant doesn'thave any enzymes to make this,

(05:56):
but it appears in traceamounts, even in fresh material.
Um, and certainly under theinfluence of heat, uh, it may,
uh, appear in greater concentrations.So it is a natural component,
uh,
and it is more stableto heat than delta nine

(06:17):
is.
So that, that, that one caveatconfuses me because if, if,
if the plant doesn'thave a way to make it,
are you suggesting that a, um,
there is a enough heat that is,
that happens during harvestingthat some amount of cannabinoid is,

(06:39):
is, uh, synthesized into Delta eight?
Or are you saying that we just haven'tfigured out yet how the plant makes Delta
eight? 'cause if it'sthere, I mean it's there.
Yeah, I think it's the latter. Mm-hmm.Uh, I'm not sure how it's doing it,
but plants are very resourceful and itmay have some trick that doesn't involve,
uh, the customer enzymes.

(07:02):
Right on. All right. Well,that, that's really interesting.
It's always great when there are, uh,
when we get to point outnew research that's, uh,
looking to be done for all the folksmoving into the industry, you know,
. So, um, so Delta nineis the form of T H C that,
you know, we're so familiar withand, and humans love so much.
How is Delta eight differentfrom Delta nine chemically?

(07:27):
Uh, again, you know, if welook at the molecular weight,
it's the same, uh, in termsof most reactions, uh,
it's gonna be the same. Itdoes differ in its affinity,
uh, for the CB one receptor, thepsychoactive receptor in the brain.
Uh, and so it is not quite as potent,

(07:49):
but basically most of its activity would
be similar rather thandistinct from Delta nine. Um,
and there's a very, uh, involvedexperiment going on now,
hasn't quite been completedby Ryan VRE at Johns Hopkins.
We have some preliminary results on it,

(08:11):
but they haven't gotten throughthe full contingent of, um,
subjects for that study.So we will learn more,
but there are moresimilarities than differences.
That really surprises mebecause, um, you know,
most people that I have spoken withsay that, you know, they'll, they'll,
they'll struggle to describe whatDelta eight feels like to them,

(08:33):
but they're always describing it as,uh, feeling different than Delta nine,
which we will often, you know, we willdescribe as a euphoric. Right. And, and,
and so, um,
and it sounds like we'll get more tothe bottom of this after this new study,
but, but in its essence,are you saying that,
that we're finding that Deltaeight actually feels pretty

(08:56):
similar to Delta nine,
except that it's morelike at a 60% potency?
Uh, that would be a, a reallyreasonable way to characterize it? Yes.
Hmm.
Alright. Um, that surprisesme. Right. Um, so, um,
so it may have a, a,
a reduced but similareuphoric effect as Delta nine

(09:20):
does. Um,
let's talk a bit about the similarmedical applications. You know,
not only do we love the experience of,
of taking in Delta nine T H C, but,
but it also has got long heraldedmedical benefits of being
an anti-inflammatory and an analgesicand, and an antiemetic meaning, uh,

(09:43):
you know, uh, anti-nausea, uh, alongwith a whole bunch of other things. Um,
does Delta eight have anyof those similar medical
applications or, ormaybe we don't know yet.
Quite likely, but again, there couldbe differences. There's only been one,
uh, real clinical study, uh,dealt done with Delta eight,

(10:05):
and that was clear back in 1995. Uh,
so this is a study byAbraham off and Lum, uh,
they used pure Delta eight T H C,
so not what people commonlyhave access to here. Uh,
we should say they used this inrelatively high doses to, uh,

(10:25):
children that had, uh,blood cancers, you know,
mainly leukemia and the like. Um,
and this was given to counteractnausea and vomiting associated with the
chemotherapy that they were getting.
And there were 480 total applications, uh,
administrations of this,

(10:47):
and it was almost uniformlyeffective in allaying the
nausea and vomiting. The otherthing that was interesting was, uh,
they seemed to tolerate very high dosescompared to that that would've been used
in adults, but that, um,
just highlights something that wasknown, say in the 19th century, that, uh,

(11:10):
young children seem to be resistantto the psychoactive effects of
cannabis.
Um, wow, that'sinteresting. It sure is, um,
explanatory a bit around how we see, um,
young children use t hc cannabis oil without,
um, you know, getting like really stoned,

(11:33):
you know, uh, the, so many of, of the,
the younger kids can get relieffrom their symptoms without
the accompanying intoxication. And,and I've always wondered about that.
Do we have any explanationfor why kids, uh,
seem to be able to, to tolerate,um, that aspect of it? It.
Sure. Well,

(11:54):
the tongue in cheek explanation wouldbe that kids act like they're stoned
anyway. Oh, . Um,
but the more serious explanation wouldprobably have to do with the density of
CB one receptors in the brain.
And, and what, meaning that theydon't have them developed yet,
and so they're not, they're nottaking it onboard as fast. Is,

(12:15):
is that the point?
Right. So they're, they're not asexpressed as, say, in in an older person,
an adolescent or adult.
Right on. Um, so back tothe idea that, um, uh, Dr.
Lum at al were, um, using, um, a,
a large amount of Delta eight isolate,um, which you're right. Um, you know,

(12:37):
we don't have easy accessto here right now, um,
for lots of reasons that we'll talk aboutmore later. But this is normally when,
you know, you,
you've been on shaping fire before totalk about other novel cannabinoids.
And this is normally when I say, well,you know, if the isolate is good,
does this cannabinoid workmore effectively in a, uh,

(13:00):
in a whole plant preparationinstead of an isolate?
But you've already said that it's,there's only trace amounts of it.
Um, is there any, um,
is there any analysis to support that,
that delta eight's presenceor not in such small
amounts in a whole plant preparation,has any meaning at all, any,

(13:24):
any substantial impact?
Uh, the answer's probably not.And it was, uh, addressed, uh,
quite well by a studythat's now 50 years old. Uh,
Caral and carlini in Brazil back in 1973
actually did comparativestudies in man, uh,

(13:45):
also in animals comparing Deltaeight and Delta nine T H C. Um,
and, um, you know,
these are very carefullydone studies that, uh,
answer some of those questions, but, um,
because Delta eight provedto be half as effective

(14:07):
as Delta nine in causingrapid heart rate tachycardia,
um,
it also delta eight was30% less effective in
producing impairmentof time estimation. Um,
and it, uh,
was had less psychoactive valueaccording to people's, uh,

(14:30):
subjective scores, you know, how theyrated their psychoactivity mm-hmm.
. So theirconclusion was because of, uh,
the low concentration of Deltaeight in natural cannabis
that it probably hadvery little effect, uh,
would be swamped by the higher amountsof Delta nine. Mm-hmm. ,

(14:52):
and I should add at this time,
that we have no indication that wecould selectively breed for higher
T delta A T H C concentrations.
Um, so, you know, I had heard that before,
but earlier in the show already you hadmentioned that we actually don't know
how Delta eight even comes intobeing in the plant. So, um,

(15:17):
what is the,
the early signs that we're gettingthis idea that it would be difficult or
unlikely that we could, um, selectivelybreed for increased Delta eight?
Um, well, again,
because there seemingly areno enzymes that would make it,
um, and, uh,

(15:37):
there's been a lot of cannabis breedinggoing on and nothing has appeared that
seems to have significantlymore Delta eight
concentration. So we, we just don'thave a path forward for that. Mm-hmm.
.
All right. And I, you know,
it's unclear to me that it would beworth the expenditure of time, money,

(15:58):
and effort, either.
Oh, sure. Well,
whether or not it makes sense from a amarket point of view is definitely true,
but also a differentthing because, you know,
when you and I are heresaying that, um, you know,
there's no way to selectively breed forincreased Delta eight, that, you know,
if I was a breeder and hearing that, thatsounds like a dare. You know? And, um,
and if there is some, youknow, established, uh, botanical reason, you know,

(16:23):
why we see a, uh, you know, a blockagein that path, forward breeding,
I figured this would be a goodtime to bring it up. Sure. Um, so,
um, and I also think that nowis probably a good time to say,
we're gonna talk more about this later,but, but I can imagine listeners, uh,
asking the question to themselves,

(16:43):
well then where the hell does allthis Delta eight come from? And, um,
and spoiler alert, we're gonnatell you during the second set, um,
that it nowadays it is, uh, uh,
almost entirely synthesizedfrom C B D cannabidiol.
So we'll answer that question now,
but we'll get into that more duringthe second set. So, so Ethan,

(17:03):
if, if, um,
if Delta eight is less potent thanDelta nine and the high is not as
delightful, and the medicinalbenefit isn't as substantial, um,
it seems to me that there is anobvious market reason why such an
inferior cannabinoid is beingused in so many states in place

(17:25):
of simply using traditional Delta ninexcannabis. Um, what is that reason?
Well, uh, first I, I'm not sureI'd use the word inferior. Hmm. Um,
it is inferior from thestandpoint of quality control. Um,
and really the issue withDelta aid is that it is
synthesized, uh, that the, uh,

(17:48):
material that's produced is not pure, uh,
that there can be allthese byproducts about,
which we know very little interms of their activity or safety
and the possibility of residual solvents.
So they answer is becausepeople make money doing it.

(18:09):
And, uh, because of the, theseinterpretations of the law,
in some instances thatDelta eight is legal, um,
people have been takingexcess C B D and turning it
into Delta eight, um,
as a way to use it andmake money with it. Um,

(18:32):
basically in some instances,
because there've been 0.3%delta nine restrictions
on concentration, uh,
people have tried to get aroundthat by spiking things with Delta
aid of synthetic origin.Um, so it's a market issue,

(18:52):
uh,
that is based on what I'm gonna say isa misconception of the available law.
And, and one way or another
we can parse out the law.But more importantly, the,
the answer seems to me to be just straightup prohibition that Oh, yes. That,
that if, um, we had afederally legalized, you know,

(19:14):
cannabis, that the, the,
the market for Delta eightwould instantaneously disappear,
except for the small groupof cannabis patients who,
who have, uh, unique issuesthat Delta eight, uh,
can address like the, um,the, the children during, uh,
chemotherapy that youmentioned earlier. And,

(19:36):
and I think that's important topoint out because, um, you know,
we will be talking today abouta lot of the challenges to using
Delta eight in, in the marketas it presently, you know,
functions today. But, butthese questions are only, um,

(19:56):
happening and people who are, uh,
incorporating Delta eightinto their products,
none of this would be happeningif it weren't for federal, um,
prohibition of the preferred siblingDelta nine. Would you agree with that?
Uh, yes. Let me statethis clearly. Mm-hmm.
The current craze about DeltaA T H C is a byproduct of

(20:20):
prohibition.
Excellent. It doesn't get any clearerthan that. Um, alright, so, um,
so that brings us to, um,
wanting to understand a bit abouthow we got here. And so, um,
uh, I was, uh, fortunate to, uh, catchyour, uh, webinar a couple weeks ago,
um, about, uh, the history ofDelta eight and its uses. And,

(20:45):
um, you, you've, you've got the,
the historical milestones forDelta eight in a really nice, like,
tight package now. So, um, I, I thinkwhat I'd like to do at this point, um,
would just be to, to hand you the micand just let you go for a while. And,
and please just teach us about thehistorical milestones to Delta eight that
bring us to where we are now.

(21:05):
Sure. Well,
we have to go way back to thefourth century on what was then
Palestine. Um,
there was a skeleton thatwas found in a cave in
Bemish, uh, which is about midwaybetween Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Um,
in this cave,
there was the skeleton of whatappeared to be a 14 year old, uh,

(21:29):
young woman who apparentlydied in childbirth.
Um, in her pelvis was anundelivered full-term fetus.
Uh, next to her,
there was this carbonizedfragment of material that when
analyzed showed Delta A T H C.Now, as I mentioned previously,

(21:50):
that's more heat stablethan, um, Delta nine. Uh,
so the fact that it was there indicatesthat this was psychoactive material that
apparently had been burned. And the, um,
the analysis of the situationwas that this cannabis was
burned in an effort to aiddelivery of the the baby.

(22:15):
Um, which in this instancedidn't work. However,
there's been thousands of yearsof history of successful use
of cannabis for this purpose. So that'sthe first Delta eight I know about.
Then we've gotta goclear up to about 1942.
There was an American scientistnamed Roger Adams, uh,

(22:38):
who did a lot of work inanalysis and synthesis related to
cannabinoids. Um, actually in 1940,
he sort of almost got thestructure of cannabidiol. Uh,
so he had a bunch of this andsynthesized what he called
tetrahydrocannabinol fromit, but it wasn't pure. There were at least two forms.

(23:01):
What he found out waswhen administered to dogs,
this made them wobbly on theirfeet, what's called static ataxia.
On then and earlier,
this was a test for cannabispreparations As to their potency,
he took some of this material,
actually 30 milligrams of whatlikely at this point was Delta A T H

(23:25):
C, put it in olive oil capsules,and then tested these on,
um, convicts in New York, 77 of them. Now,
this is interesting because I thinkpeople will see the similarities
of effects to Delta nine. Sowith the Delta eight capsules,

(23:45):
um, they got onset orallyin 30 to 90 minutes. It,
uh,
peaked somewhere between three and a halfto five hours and was gone after seven
hours. And the effects again, werequite analogous to Delta nine.
They had increased heart rate, alittle bit of increased blood pressure,
faster breathing, their eyes got red, um,

(24:08):
they got dry mouth, some gotwobbly on their feet. Um,
you know, recognizing there was asomewhat higher dose, some got anxious,
some were euphoric. Uh, they talked a lot,
it seemed to lower inhibition. Uh, they,
those who were familiarwith the term felt high. Uh,
there were bursts of laughterand some drowsiness. Um,

(24:32):
and then they did experiments and showedthat with prolonged usage there was
tolerance, these psychoactive effects. Um,
now interestingly, theymade a distinction in, uh,
humans between inmates and what theycalled the high ranking individuals and
industrialists who also tried this,but the effects were quite the same.

(24:54):
Uh,
so it may show you that businessmen ata high level aren't that different than
convicts , butenough political commentary,
um, subsequently, uh,some of the same material,
15 milligrams of whatwas likely delta A T H C,
um, was again, used onconvicts in, uh, New York. Um,

(25:18):
this is part of what's called theLaGuardia report that came out in 1944,
but they used this to test bout withdrawal
from, uh, narcotics, specificallymorphine or heroin. Um,
and so they compared this 15milligrams of delta A T H C,

(25:39):
uh, to, uh, what was calledMagenis solution, which was just a,
a form of morphine. Um, anyway,
they found that, uh, this help withthe withdrawal reduce the symptoms,
uh, and people were able to leavethe hospital after treatment, uh,
seemingly in better condition thanthose who got no treatment or got the,

(26:02):
the morphine substitute. Um,
so they were able to eat on someactually gained weight during withdrawal,
which is not what we usuallyexpect with opiates. Um,
after that, we've gotta go clearup to the 1960s, uh, at this point,
uh,
professor Michelle Lemon andhis colleagues were working out all the structures

(26:25):
of cannabis components from Hashish. Um,
and so in 1963,
they figured out the absolutestructure of cannabidiol in 64,
uh, Delta nine, T H C, uh, in 66. Um,
they showed that, um,
you could turn cannabidiolinto delta A T H C, uh,

(26:49):
through a chemical reaction.Um, so, uh, two nasty things,
um, heated together withbenzene and what's called ro,
toluene snic acid, and theycould make delta A T H C. Um,
that and similar schemeshave come down to us, uh,

(27:09):
in the current time, uh,
as a way to make delta A T H C from C B D.
And then there were some, some moreexperiments that were done. Um,
uh, again, in 66,
it was shown that you could findsome tiny amounts of Delta eight in
fresh cannabis. Um,

(27:31):
the Dean of American CannabisStudies in the sixties
and early seventieswith Leo Hollister, um,
he tested Delta A T H C20 and 40 milligrams as
compared to 20 milligrams ofDelta nine. Interestingly,
they put this in chocolate cookies, um,

(27:51):
but the effects werequalitatively very similar. Um,
euphoria, tranquility,difficulty thinking, rapid thoughts, decreased memory.
The timeframe he got wasonset in 30 to 90 minutes,
orally peaking after two anda half to three hours on with
residual symptoms up tofive hours. Um, overall,

(28:15):
again, there seemed to be a lowerpsychoactivity head to head,
perhaps Delta eight being about63% of the potency of Delta
nine as I calculate it.
And that might be in keeping withwhat people have said previously. Um,
I previously mentioned the study ofCaral and Carlini in 1973 in Brazil.

(28:37):
Their findings were really quitesimilar, uh, to the others. Um,
they, uh, essentially thought it was, uh,
about 30%, uh, less psychoactive,
um, and, uh, very carefulstudies for the time. Um,
so, um, compared to whatwe're doing now, uh, they're,

(29:02):
they're really validstudies. Um, and after that,
uh, really not much happened beyond, uh,
Abraham off and mic study in 1995,
clear up until a few years ago when, uh,
suddenly Delta eight appeared, um,
in great profusion, uh,

(29:23):
as a way to get rid of surplus C B D.
Right on. Well then, um,that's actually a great setup.
That's where we start set two. So, um,
thank you for that explanation ofthose historical milestones. And, um,
let's go ahead and take our break andthen when we, we come back, we'll,
we'll pick up right here. Youare listening to Shaping Fire,

(29:44):
and my guest today is neurologist andcannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo. And,
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Welcome back. You are listening toShaping Fire. I am your host Anglos,
and my guest today is neurologist andcanvas researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.
So before the break, we were bringingus up, uh, historically to, um,

(36:01):
what is happening now where mostfolks or nearly everyone, um,
who is incorporating, uh, Deltaeight T H C into their products,
is doing so from Delta eight, um,
that has been synthesized from C B D.
And a reminder that the reason whythey're not taking it directly from the

(36:22):
cannabis plant is becausethe amounts are, um, so low,
so barely there in traceforms, um, that, uh,
for both labor and financial reasons,
trying to pull it outof a great deal of, uh,
plant material just doesn't make sense.Um, but because you can synthesize, uh,

(36:44):
C B D, excuse me, you can synthesizeDelta eight T H C from C B D,
um, and we had this huge glut of,
of C B D on the market, um, justwhat, three years ago now that the,
the price of the, the, theC B D raw bulk material,
the the bulk plant material wasso low that it made sense to pull

(37:06):
out, uh,
cheap C b D out of these hempplants and then go to the lab and
synthesize it into Delta eightT H C, which, um, you know,
even though it's lesspotent, um, uh, you know,
there is a way to cause a high andtherefore is a way to make money. Um, so,

(37:26):
uh, Ethan, what I'd like you to explainright now, uh, it, it's kind of like a,
a a two part question. Um,
for a lot of us who don'thave lab experience,
the idea of synthesizingdelta eight T H C from C B
D is kind of nothing but words.And so I, if you could, um,
you know, uh, you know,

(37:48):
generally explain what it means to dothat in the lab and kind of what that's
like, um,
so we can picture that in our headswhat it is to synthesize something. Um,
and then, and then the second part, whichis I part of your answer is, is that,
um, the,
the point of our concern about Deltaeight is that so many contaminants come

(38:08):
along with it from the synthesis process,
which then gets passed downto consumers. So this is,
this is the crux of the problem. And,
and I'd like you to explain thesynthesis and why there are contaminants,
why there are.
Sure. Yeah, I think that'san important question.
So let's say that we have abunch of starting material. Uh,

(38:29):
so this would be crystalline CB D that originally came from
the plant, or e even could bebe from a synthetic source.
So first this would be dissolved insome kind of organic solvent. Now,
they often will use thingslike hexane, which is, uh,
something you'd find in gasoline. Uh,it's not something you'd wanna ingest.

(38:53):
Uh, then it's heated inthe presence of an acid.
And, uh, that, uh, closes aring on cannabidiol and, uh,
produces delta A T HC. So that sounds fine,
except, um, then you'vegotta get rid of the solvent,

(39:15):
um, presumably with somekind of drying or evaporation
technique. But there always couldbe residuals and, uh, you know,
that's a source of toxicity.
But the real problem hereis this isn't a one-to-one
proposition. In otherwords, you don't get, uh,
all the C B D turned only into, uh,

(39:38):
delta A T c, rather, thereare all these other things.
Now we're gonna get into somefancy names here, Delta four eight,
iso, T h C nine, Oxy,
hexa Hydro Cannabinol, um,
and even performing, uh, getting newthings that hadn't been discovered before,

(40:00):
like iso tetra hydro furan. Um,
so these are things about whichwe know little or nothing.
It may be that some ofthese substances are okay.
It may be that they're not,they are potentially toxic.
Some could be actually morepsychoactive than Delta nine, T H c.

(40:23):
Um, and, you know,
probably get into some of other nastiesthat have been found in Delta eight
products. But the bottomline is this, basically,
it is extremely unlikelythat any commercial product
with Delta eight in it isgonna only have that, uh,

(40:45):
will have these potentiallytoxic byproducts and
potentially toxic solvent residues. Um,
so basically, uh, if you'reusing these products,
it's a crapshoot as to what'sreally in their and what, uh,
bad effects they might haveeither acutely or particularly

(41:09):
if taken on a chronic basis.
In most cases, uh, productmanufacturers who are using Delta eight,
um, they, you know, they, they,they get a test done that's, that's,
you know, perhaps needed for theirstate. But one way or another,
there's a testing test done atsome point of like, what, what the,
the isolate is that they are, they arepurchasing or making and it's done.

(41:33):
And they're like, oh, youknow, it looks good, but isn't,
isn't the science that to findany of these contaminants,
you actually have to be usingstandards to actually see them. And,
and since there is all of this, you know,
chemical static in the,
the isolate that isthe resultant that that

(41:56):
many people may actually think they'reusing an air quotes clean isolate
of delta eight, but the, the, the,
the costs are so preventative to,
to check for all of the toxicitems that, that, that that kind of
research is not beingdone on their products.
Uh, very likely not. So whatyou said is quite right. Um,

(42:20):
so there is this blip ona, a screen, uh, you know,
whatever kind of, uh, analyticaltest is being done, well,
that's gonna remain unknownunless you have a standard, um,
a pure chemical, um, that you'veused in your analysis, uh,
that tells you what it is. Um,and for some of these compounds,

(42:44):
there aren't any standards. So, um,
in the analytical studiesthat have been done,
they figure it out usingadvanced, uh, instrumentation,
um, and comparison with theliterature. But, you know,
these are just not, uh,
necessarily available in your friendlyneighborhood lab. Mm-hmm. .

(43:07):
Um, you know, I havestruggled a bit with this,
with the idea of Delta eight being, um,
natural or a synthetic becausesynthetic and natural both seem to,
um, be, uh, inexactwords. And, and, you know,
I originally learned about,uh, Delta eight as a synthetic,

(43:29):
something that is not naturally occurring,but the more I speak with scientists,
um, they say what, what youhave said, which is there's,
there's such a trace amount, uh, that,that it does occur in the a plant.
We're not exactly sure how itoccurs in the plant, but, but it's,
it's there in trace amounts. But to, to,

(43:50):
to say that delta eight is then natural
seems to be a bit of a misnomer,
because that's not thedelta eight that is used in,
uh, the market. What's usedfor product manufacturing is,
uh, I, I dare say,
always going to be Delta eightthat's been synthesized from

(44:14):
cannabidiol, which is syntheticbecause it's not naturally occurring.
And so I just wanted to hearwhatever your thoughts were on this,
on these messy use ofsynthetic versus natural for,
uh, in, in, in an isolate.
Right. Well, uh, you know,to keep it quite simple, uh,

(44:35):
basically any consumer product, uh,
advertising itself as containingDelta A T H C is of synthetic
origin and subject to all thecaveats and warnings that we've,
uh, already discussed. Um, andit gets worse from there. Um,
you know, some of these productsmay contain Delta A T C O

(44:59):
acetate. Um, there's a whole problemwith this group of compounds. The,
um, asters, um, when these are vaporized,
uh, they can producesomething called ketones,
which are toxic to thelungs and have been, uh,
associated with, um, this, uh,

(45:20):
problem with the lungscalled E Valley, uh,
which is an acronym forsomething very ominous, uh,
called e-cigarette or vapingproduct use associated lung
injury.
People may have heard of thisterm in relation to the vitamin
E acetate scandal of a fewyears ago where vitamin E

(45:44):
acetate was put in vape pensas sort of a carrier. Uh,
it had a consistency thatwas sort of like, um, uh,
cannabis concentrates, um,and, uh, was put in vape pens,
but, uh,
number of people were hospitalizedand there were some deaths due to

(46:05):
pulmonary damage, uh, fromthis kind of compound on.
The same thing could happenwith any of these, uh,
acetates that, uh,
are sometimes seen as toxicbyproducts of delta A T H
C production. So actually, um,

(46:26):
delta A T H C O acetate hasbeen demonstrated on, uh,
vape pens, something called Blue Dream.
This is showed shownby Benowitz at all, uh,
an article earlier this year.And they pointed out how, uh,
this, uh,
Delta eight T h c acetate whensubjected to heat produced this Keane,

(46:49):
which again, is the lungdamaging compound. Um,
so the same thing potentiallycould happen with any, uh,
Delta eight vape pen, um,
if it had similar contaminants.
Right on. So let's, let's teaseout that nuance a little bit,
because I think that it is, Ithink that it's the crux of this,

(47:11):
essentially the entire episode, um, that,
that Delta eight, um,
in a perfect world where it was isolated
properly in a lab,
and then after the fact was cleaned up to

(47:31):
remove contaminants, which is a very,
uh, lengthy and arduousprocess and takes, you know,
advanced skills that as thatDelta eight as a medicine
does have applications and does cause,
you know,
a 60% euphoria effect60% of what Delta nine

(47:56):
does. However, that'snot the world we live in.
The world we live in is that, um,
folks without enough experience are,
are isolating Delta eight,
not cleaning it up afterwards,
maybe don't have the experience toknow everything that they, that,
that they need to be pulling out,don't have the budget or the lab to,

(48:20):
um, identify the toxic contaminantsand remove them and be,
and then this is the Delta eight that is,
is being dumped onto the market that'sbeing synthesized from C B D from hemp
from the last three years. Andthis is what the problem is. So,
so it's not scientificallytrue Delta eight,

(48:41):
the problem is in the reality that peoplearen't putting out pure Delta eight,
and it's actually got all this, um, these,
these extra contaminants in it.
Uh, yeah, I mean, uh, quite right. I mean,
the way I'd put itsuccinctly is Delta eight,

(49:02):
T H C, the molecule orcompound is not the problem.
The problem is how that deltaeight T h c is produced.
Um, and again,
the toxic byproducts andsolvent residues. So,
uh, again, don't blame thecompound compound's, all right?

(49:24):
But how it's made and availableto consumers is the problem. And,
uh, potentially a very big one.
Um, there was, uh, a popularstudy from 2021 that,
that looked at this case of, of,
of Delta eight from C B D beingsprayed on Delta nine flour to make it
more potent. And, and, and thenI believe subsequently they,

(49:48):
they were taking products fromthe licensed market where there
should not be Delta eight,
and there were all these productsthat had Delta eight in it, um,
kind of like, uh, to fortify the,
the experience of theregular Delta nine. So,

(50:09):
so it it, it's like, uh, you know, a,
a fortified vitamin or a fortified alcoholor something. It's like, it's like,
ah, we, we wanna make it morestrong, and so we're gonna,
we're gonna add something extra. Andso people are adding Delta eight.
Um, and, and not mentioning it on thelabel, because it's, in most states,
it's not supposed to bein their licensed market,

(50:30):
but they add Delta eight so that theirproduct has what they think is an
improved experience. Can you, um,
explain what the downside would be for,
for people to be buying products thathave got Delta eight in it without their
knowledge?
Uh, well, it's an unconscionablepractice and, um, uh,

(50:52):
I would condemn anyone whoengages in that kind of activity.
Um, but beyond that, uh,again, it's a matter of, uh,
not knowing what you're getting,the likelihood of overdose, uh,
if in a vape pen, thepossibilities of lung damage. Um,

(51:13):
uh, and you know, it's been demonstrated,
there've actually been studies thatshow that the use rates of Delta eight
products are way higher instates that have restrictive
cannabis policies as opposedto those that have freer
access to natural cannabis, uh, compounds.

(51:36):
Um, so, um, and again,this stuff is not, uh,
without risks. Um, there was a studyearlier this year, Simon et al,
um, there's a reporting system atthe Food and Drug Administration for
non-prescription drugs. It'scalled the Fares, uh, system. Um,

(51:56):
and they've had a massive increase inreports associated with Delta eight
products. Um, just to give a rundown, uh,
33 deaths attributed toDelta eight products, um,
49 hospitalizations, 109 serious reports,
41 non-serious. And thisone will surprise people.

(52:20):
There were more respiratory issues,
problems with the lungs that werereported for Delta A T H C products
than any cannabis or hemp product.Mm-hmm. . Um,
so that puts it in context. Sothese things are not without risk.
So this is quite incontrast, um, to the claims,

(52:40):
uh, that have sometimes been made. Um, uh,
there was a, a paperthat was published, uh,
wouldn't have gotten past meif I reviewed it, but in 2022,
Kruger and Kruger published a study.
It was just an online survey ofpeople using Delta eight products.

(53:01):
Um, and, you know, theyreported, um, that, um,
I don't know how they made theircomparisons, it wouldn't be scientific,
but they were reported Deltaeight was less intense, uh,
produced relaxation in euphoriathat it relieved pain, but also,
uh, was associated withshort-term memory impairment. Um,

(53:23):
there was a comment from one consumerthat got in the title of the paper,
and the quote was, Delta Eat feelslike Delta nine's nicer young sibling.
Hmm. Um, and, um,
that's just not borneout by the figures. Um,
uh, and, you know, the conclusionof the article was quote,

(53:45):
Delta A T H C may provide much ofthe experiential benefits of Delta
nine T H C with lesser adverse effects.
That's just plain wrong. Um,
and never should have been in apublished scientific article. Um, and I,
I won't cast aspersions on the publisher,but I could mm-hmm. .

(54:06):
And I think that this adds a lot tothe confusion that we see amongst
consumers about Delta eight. Um, you know,
I kind of came into the Deltaeight understanding being prejudiced against Delta
eight, I gotta admit,
because I was only ever seeingit in really low quality
unlicensed market productsthat were very low priced

(54:30):
in, um, uh, states wherecannabis wasn't legal.
And let's be clear offthe top that, that, um,
the fact that it's unlicensed doesn'tactually bother me. Um, you know,
we talk a lot about, a lot about, um,
individual patient freedoms and togrow your own, um, on this show.
But, but what does get me is whena product is of crappy, uh, um,

(54:52):
quality period, whether it's in thelicensed or in the unlicensed market.
And so I would, when, when I firststarted seeing Delta eight, it was in,
you know, the, these states and, and,you know, $10 vape cartridges in really,
you know, bad packaging. And youcould just tell like, oh man,
somebody's gonna get really sick fromthis stuff. And then they did. You know,

(55:14):
and, and so, um,
certainly there are products in theunlicensed market that are, are quality,
but certainly that's, that's notmost of them, most of them are,
are low quality. And, andbecause there, there are papers,
um, like the one you just referred to, um,
that product manufacturers can graspon, grasp onto and say, Hey, look,

(55:35):
here's a study that says thatyou know, it's safe and good.
It creates enough confusionin the market, um, where,
where people don't, are, aren't educated,
and so they buy what they canafford. And so these products are,
are finding themselves more into,uh, states that are not legal,
and then people who are low income,which is, you know, such a drag. Um,

(56:00):
I also found it interesting that, um,
there's an a s t N white paper in 2021pointing out that the instructions for
synthesizing delta eight areeasily found on YouTube. Um,
but it's, it's, it's not as simpleas it's often presented on YouTube.
Most people don't have the,the skills to do it safely,

(56:22):
and the study says it results inwildly unintended consequences.
So are those unintendedconsequences the same, um, uh,
toxic components that we'vealready referred to? Or, or is it,
is something even further than that?
Uh, no, that's it. Uh, you know,
basically they referred in that, uh,

(56:42):
white paper to acetic acidavailable in your kitchen. Uh,
translating that means vinegar. So there,
there would be ways of makingthis with vinegar and heat. Um,
but again, um, you know,
I don't trust a lab to do this properly.

(57:04):
Why would we have anyinkling that someone, uh,
doing this in their,
as a kitchen chemist would havebetter luck in what they produce? Um,
no one should ever try this.
Right on. So, um, to, to, towrap us up here in set two,
um, and I, and I know we're puttinga pretty sharp point on this, but I,

(57:26):
I don't think that we can put toosharp of a point on it. You know,
a lot of people say, you know,Hey, Delta eight is in the plant.
We've been using the plant for,you know, thousands of years.
Delta eight has a naturalor origin and therefore,
and natural products aresafe. And therefore they say that Delta eight in the,
in their products is fine. But,

(57:46):
but that's just not the rightway to think about it, is it?
No.
No. Alright, so, um,let's wrap up here in, uh,
set three. Um, we're gonna start, uh,
talking about some of the unexpectedattributes of Delta eight.
And, you know, some of theinteresting questions about, uh,
Delta eight and how to think aboutit, that, that just haven't, um,

(58:09):
fit into the show so far.
It's gonna be kind of a hodgepodge ofinteresting Delta eight topics, I guess.
So, uh, let's go ahead and take, um, oursecond short break and be right back.
You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and my guest today is neurologist andcannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.
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(01:02:58):
Welcome back. You are listening toShaping Fire. I'm your host Shang Los,
and my guest today is neurologist andcannabis researcher Dr. Ethan Russo.
So here in the last set, we'regonna talk mostly about, um,
things that like didn't reallyfit in the rest of the show,
and there's some reallyinteresting stuff, uh, uh,
about Delta eight that wehaven't touched on yet. And,
and the first thing I wanna, uh, uh,talk about Ethan is that, you know,

(01:03:22):
we mentioned, um, early way back inthe first set that, um, that, uh,
Delta eight works effectively as anantiemetic in, uh, kids who are on,
uh, experiencing chemotherapy, meaningthat it decreases their nausea.
Have we found anything elsethat Delta eight can do? Well,
I guess anything at all, because,

(01:03:43):
because Delta nine may actually bebetter than Delta eight for this,
but have we found anything thatDelta eight can do that, uh,
that naturally occurring,um, Delta nine, T H C,
and the other naturally occurringcannabinoids don't do better. Is there,
is there anything unique that Deltaeight can do that the other cannabinoids
can't do?

(01:04:04):
Uh, yes, and it would be, itsstability to heat mm-hmm. Uh,
is demonstrated in theancient sample. And, um,
I suppose there could be somejurisdictions around the,
the world where they had alaw that specifically cited
Delta nine T H C and didn'tcite, uh, Delta eight,

(01:04:26):
and it might be possible there touse Delta eight preferentially.
Um, but you know, that's a, a legalpoint, not a medical point. Mm-hmm.
, so it'sthermal stability is it's, um,
main selling point.
Is the thermal stability something thatis actually a health benefit or is that

(01:04:46):
more a Oh, because it'smore thermally stable,
it makes it a good choice forsome particular pharmaceutical products that have
gotta be heated.
It would be that kind of situation orshelf life issues mm-hmm. ,
but, um,
I don't see this as being commerciallydeveloped in any capacity.
Um.
Meaning now or in thefuture, or both? Yeah.

(01:05:08):
Mm-hmm. , uh, because, um,
to make a Delta eightprescription product,
it's going to have to go throughyears of testing and, uh,
hundreds of millions of dollars inexpenditure to get it through phase one to
three clinical trials. I don'tsee anybody doing that. Mm-hmm.
,
because the promise of it doesn't seemto be justif justify that much time and

(01:05:31):
resources. Yeah.
Two points. One is it wouldn'tbe worth the investment, and two,
it's never gonna do what herbalcannabis in a proper preparation can do.
Mm-hmm. .
So this would be the place where Itypically invoke the entourage effect.
Um, go ahead. Why don'tyou go ahead and invoke it.
For those who aren'tfamiliar with it, .

(01:05:53):
Um, there's nothing that pure T H C,
whether delta nine or delta eightcan do that can't be done better by a
properly cons constituted, um,
herbal cannabis preparation.Um, you know, uh,
we really benefit from having additionalcannabinoids and terpenoids that
reduce the side effect profileof T H C in either form,

(01:06:17):
and it makes for a better, moretolerable and more effective medicine.
Excellent. Excellent. We always,
we always love to support the wholeplant medicine thinking here on the show,
. So, you know, uh,during shaping fire, episode 14,
all the way back five years agowith, uh, Dr. Greg Germond, uh,
we discussed how synthetic cannabinoidscan sometimes be used in the lab as

(01:06:40):
a tool. So,
so not as something that a human isactually going to ingest for a medical
reason,
but something that can be usedin the lab as a tool to do,
you know, one or otherexperiment or process. Um,
would you explain briefly how syntheticcannabinoids can be useful in a lab
setting?

(01:07:00):
And then also whether you're aware ofany useful tool that Delta eight has
become in the lab?
Uh, okay. Well, you know,
there have actually have been hundredsof synthetic cannabinoids that have been
used in the lab.
Some of these are extremelypotent as compared to Delta nine,
T h C. Um,

(01:07:21):
those can be useful in pointingout pathways or the patterns of,
uh, the receptors in a givenorgan, especially the brain.
So they're just tools thatare used that way, and they,
they're often used in animalstudies. Uh, believe it or not,
it's easier to acquire a lot of thesesynthetics than it is to get per

(01:07:43):
permission to use Delta nine,um, in such experiments.
But we have to be very careful.Um, rats are not humans.
And in particular, uh,
there've been some distinctionsin the affinity of, uh,
Delta eight for cannabinoidreceptors in certain species

(01:08:04):
of animals as comparedto humans. Um, so, um,
uh, I hate to say this,
but you can only learn so much fromanimal studies mm-hmm. , um,
that's true. Um, there aredistinct differences and, uh,
any such literature has to beread with that in mind, that,

(01:08:26):
um, that's interesting, but it maynot translate to human clinical use.
Um, do you think that there are, um,
folks that are using Deltaeight as a tool in the lab, or,
or is that not necessarily one ofthe synthetic cannabinoids that,
that has use in a lab in that way?
Um, it has been used, I wouldn't say agreat deal. Mm-hmm. . Um,

(01:08:49):
but again, it, uh, might haveto do with things like, uh,
its stability as compared to Delta nine.
Right on. So, um, in, uh,
some of the studies thathave, uh, grabbed, um,
products from the licensed market, um,

(01:09:09):
as well as our general awareness ofproducts in the unlicensed market,
we find that some peoplewill fail drug tests, um,
because they've had, uh, Delta eight, um,
with Delta eight T H C, and,and, uh, folks think that,
oh, it's got Delta eight,it doesn't have, you know,

(01:09:31):
real cannabis in it, if you will.These people will say, and so and so,
they think it's safe to use, but yetthey still, um, fail drug tests for,
you know, their trucking job or whatever.So will you just explain briefly why,
um, uh, Delta eight is, is,
is not safe for people whohave to take drug tests?

(01:09:52):
Uh, sure. You know, aswe said in the beginning,
the only difference is where this doublebond is that makes a difference between
Delta eight and delta nine. So in, um,
analytical assays for urine testing
metabolites of T H C,they're gonna show up anyway.

(01:10:14):
So the bottom line is if you'regetting urine testing for your job,
don't use Delta eight. Simple. Right.
On easy to the point. Um, youknow, a, a lot of people, uh,
who are looking to defend, um,uh, Delta eight, um, you know,
as it's commercially made rightnow as an agricultural product, um,

(01:10:35):
you know, they, they say, listen, it's an,
it's an agricultural productlike anything else, and,
and we should be allowed to use it. Um,
but on your webinar the other dayit was mentioned why, you know,
Delta eight doesn't make sense toconsider it an agricultural product. And,
and would you repeat that analysis?
Uh, sure. You know, uh,
it had its first origin and a plantgrown in the ground, uh, presumably,

(01:11:00):
although, um, some Delta eightmay be made from synthetic C B D,
but once it gets into thelab and subjected to these
chemical transmogrification,it's not natural.
It's not an agricultural product,
it's a synthetic product and onethat invariably is contaminated.

(01:11:23):
Right on. So, so is, is there a, isthere a scientific threshold point where,
um, where a,
a molecule that started out in aplant is now considered a synthetic?
Because I'm, I'm figuring thatsomewhere along that chain of synthesis,
um, you know, it's, it's officiallyno longer an agricultural product.

(01:11:43):
Does that threshold exist oris that, um, more, um, um,
subjective?
Um, uh, anytime you've changed onething into something else that's,
uh, no longer agricultural.
Right on. Fair enough. Um, we'vehad you on shaping fire, uh,
before to talk about cannabinoidhyperemesis syndrome. And, um,

(01:12:07):
this is the likelihood that,
that someone will be especially sensitiveto cannabis causing a whole range of
negative symptoms. Um, have we seen, um,
cannabinoid hyperemesis syndromefrom, um, being caused by d uh,
Delta eight products?
Yes. In 2021, there was a case report. Uh,
this is a woman who'd had prior gastricsurgery and came in with nausea and

(01:12:31):
vomiting.
So she got a CAT scan to make sure thatnothing was wrong with the surgery. Um,
and her nausea and vomiting wasn'tresponding to the usual approaches and
drugs that they used. Uh,
it turned out she'd been usingDelta A T H C gummies. Um,
they suspected she had cannabinoidhyperemesis syndrome and then

(01:12:54):
responded to drugs that seemedto work better there. Uh,
specifically Halo Peritol, whichis a major tranquilizer, um, and,
um, capus, anointment on the skin. So, uh,
cannabinoid hyperemesis syndromewill be caused by anything, uh,
whether delta nine, delta eight,

(01:13:16):
or synthetic cannabinoids that are, uh,
stimulating the CB one receptor,the main psychoactive receptor,
uh, for cannabinoids mm-hmm.. Um, so yes,
Delta eight can beassociated with, uh, c H s.
Right on. Thank you. So, uh, as we wrapup here at the end of set three, um,

(01:13:39):
I think I wanna wrap up by readinga couple of, um, um, quotes from,
uh, the, the, uh, c Huahstudy from 2021. Uh,
we believe in unicorns and Delta eight,uh, from the cannabis scientist. Um,
and then, and then, and then I'm gonnaask you a question and, and, and we will,
we'll wrap up here. So, so here are acouple quotes from, from that paper. Um,

(01:14:02):
the problem is not with Delta eight,
but the unregulated distributionof synthetic contaminated products,
at least Walter Whitewas a chemistry teacher.
Delta eight has become amoney printing machine,
but when I show producers what it is intheir sample, they don't stop making it,
and they don't stop distributing it.

(01:14:22):
They just go to another lab who willnot acknowledge the contaminants found.
Um, this really points to, oh,so I'm no longer quoting anymore.
This is my voice now. Um,this really points to the,
the sheisty nature of a particular, um,
section of the, um, unlicensed market,

(01:14:44):
but even some of the licensed market,because we know Delta eight has,
has snuck into statelevel, um, legal markets.
And, and let's finish withthis, Ethan, you know,
I know you're very passionateabout this, um, as a, you know,
as a medical doctor and also asa, uh, cannabis researcher, uh,
in search for the truth. Um, forfolks that are making these, um,

(01:15:09):
Delta eight, um, products thatwe know are all coming from,
uh, synthesis from C B D, um, you know,
what message would youhave for them, um, uh, uh,
in encouragement, uh, to perhapsreconsider their approach?
Um, again,
I would state that there's nothingthat Delta eight does that can't

(01:15:34):
be done more safely and effectivelywith a natural cannabis product.
Now, that may not be availableto everyone, but, um, you know,
I hope that, uh,
the laws will change and that wesee this commerce and Delta eight
disappear. Because to repeatwhat I said earlier, uh,

(01:15:54):
the Delta eight craze is abyproduct of prohibition.
Well said. And, and atthe end, this problem, um,
sits at the feet of our legislatorswho are choosing to drag their feet
instead of, instead of taking,um, real, um, legalization action.
Well, thank you, Ethan. Um, it'salways a pleasure to have you on, uh,

(01:16:17):
shaping fire and, um,especially with such a, uh,
a nuanced topic as this, um,
that is just not getting enoughattention. I appreciate you taking, um,
your time and your expertise andgoing, uh, through it with us, um,
so that we too, as, ascannabis enthusiasts,
can understand the nuances and, you know,

(01:16:37):
use it in our own lives as well asthe, the people who we care for.
So thank you.
Thank you for the opportunity.
So my friends, um, if you are interestedin, uh, learning more about Dr.
Russo, there's a few ways to dothat. Um, first and foremost,
I highly recommend, uh, you check out, um,

(01:16:58):
Ethan Russo's library of, uh,
work and [e-mail],
and then click on the library tab. Um,you can also find a link to this, um,
on the shaping fire.com websitefor today's episode. Um,
you can also, uh, learnabout, uh, Ethan Russo's, uh,

(01:17:20):
work bringing, uh, cannabis into, uh,
legal and healthful cannabisproducts and, and different, um,
[e-mail].
That's c R E D O science.com.And then finally,
um, if you have a burning question ora comment that is only going to be, uh,

(01:17:41):
uh, for Ethan Russo,um, you can email him at
[e-mail]. Now, be realistic.
You know, um, Ethan,for all these years, uh,
he does his best to get back witheverybody, but he is, you know,
still an active researcher and he's,he's flying around the world to give, um,
to give lectures. So, so it mighttake him a while to get back with you,

(01:18:04):
so be realistic. But, um, I thinkhe does a pretty good job of,
of getting back with everybody. Finally,if you want to learn more from Dr.
Russo, um,
he has joined us several times onshaping fire over the last five years.
And perhaps one of these,uh, will interest you, um,
all the way back fiveyears ago, episode, uh,
22 on treating traumatic braininjury with cannabis and psilocybin

(01:18:27):
mushrooms, episodes 11and 27 about his, uh,
famous research papers oncannabinoids and terpenoids,
episode number 67, about treatingmigraines with mushrooms and cannabis,
episode 80 on cannabisHyperemesis syndrome,
episode 83 on Cannabigerol,C B G. And then, um,

(01:18:49):
recently and, uh, and veryheartfully episode 103, um,
in a memorial episode about the life'swork of, uh, the very respected Dr.
Rael Muslum. And of course, on the,there's the Shaping Fire, uh, sessions,
a 10 part series on theShaping Fire YouTube channel.
You can find more episodes of theShaping Fire Podcast and subscribe to the

(01:19:10):
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(01:19:32):
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(01:19:53):
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Thanks for listening to ShapingFire. I've been your host, Shang Los.