EP112 Super-Charging Soil Microbiology with guest Michael DiLegge

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
- Happy New Year.
It's been so cold over theentire country this week here on
Vashon Island where I live,windchill got well below zero,
and some of the southernstates had windchill
of like negative 40 andnegative 60 degrees Fahrenheit.
That's ridiculous when it gets this cold,
my old house is miserable.
The poor insulation here justlets the cold right through,

(00:28):
and I have to bundle up
and keep moving until the weather changes.
Several parts of the countryare without power, too cold
and no electricity.
Makes life dangerous and unbearable.
The parts of my island thathave no power have put their
freezer foods outside inthe icy cold to stay fresh.
Some folks are grilling theirdefrosting expensive meat

(00:50):
and seafood so they can enjoy eating them
before losing them, incase the weather warms
before the electricity comes back.
Some folks are even leavingtown to stay with relatives.
And believe it or not, this is the theme
of today's shaping fire episode.
Just like humans get miserable
and crappy weather, so does the microbe

(01:10):
life in your cannabis soil.
Too much water, too littlewater. Not enough sunshine.
Too much sunshine. Too little carbon.
Too much carbon, too hot,too cold, frozen. Yikes.
I imagine the microbes alsoputting all their little foods
out in the front yard andhaving the neighborhood over
for a big freezing barbecue.

(01:31):
Yeah, that's right. Get ready for a lot
of anthropomorphizing of microbes today,
'cause microbes are people too.
If you wanna learn aboutcannabis health cultivation
and technique efficiently
and with good cheer, I encourage you
to subscribe to our newsletter.
We'll send you new podcastepisodes as they come out,
delivered right to your inbox, along
with commentary on a couple

(01:51):
of the most important news items from the
week, and videos too.
Don't rely on social media
to let you know when anew episode is published.
Sign up for the updates to make sure
you don't miss an episode.
You are listening to Shaping Fire.
And I'm your host, ShangLos. Welcome to episode 112.
My guest today is Michael Delegue.
Michael Delegue earned hismaster's from Colorado State

(02:13):
University's horticulturaldepartment in 2020,
where he researched different facets
of plant microbe interactions,including nematode,
biocontrol methods, microbial legacies,
resulting from replanting fields,
and even the caterpillar gut microbiome.
Now serving as the Director
of microbiology at Impella Biosciences.
His research surrounds theoverlap between biological

(02:36):
and biochemical agriculturalinputs targeted towards both
crop and soil health properties.
Cannabis sativa is oneof their model organisms
for agricultural research,
and one of Michael's projects is
to examine the functionalbacterial species recruited
by cannabis sativa in therhizosphere during the first set.
Today we will discuss biostimulants
and plant growth regulators

(02:57):
and how to approach them
as regenerative cannabis cultivators.
In the second set, we willdiscuss the care intending
of micro life in the rhizosphere.
And during the third set,
we will choose companionplants for soil diversity.
And finish the episode with an indictment
of the 24 hour light strategy.
Welcome to Shaping Fire, Michael.
- Hi, Chenko. Thank youso much for having me.

(03:17):
I'm very grateful to be here. Awesome.
- Really glad that you made time for us.
So let's get right into it.
You know, um, cannabisfarmers are always looking
for like a leg up, uh,
something winning to add to their recipe.
And, um, a lot of uslook for different things
that could be determinedto be bio stimulants.
And then a subsection of thosepeople are, are people mostly

(03:38):
who follow this show, who are, uh,
regeneratively minded farmers.
So, so they're, they're, they're looking
for natural biostimulantsversus synthetic ones.
Let's start out the show by talking about
what biostimulants are generally,
and then we'll start totease apart the synthetic
ones from natural ones.
So, so that's my first question for you.
Um, what are bio stimulants and, um,

(04:01):
and what are the kind of kindsof attributes that we look
for them to impart on our cannabis plants?
- Absolutely. Yeah. Um,so I mean, I like to think
of biostimulants as areally large umbrella term
with several different kindof facets of, of products
or inputs that people can use
or they can take advantage of
that might be in a natural system.
Um, but I guess inessence, you know, they're,

(04:22):
they're very much performanceenhancers for plant growth
and metabolism is how I kindof define biostimulants.
- So, so when, so when wesay performance, um, um,
are we talking aboutspecifically like the, the, um,
the gathering of nutrition, theprocessing of nutrition, uh,
improved photosynthesis,essentially all of the plants,

(04:44):
um, biological systems get, getkind of like tweaked up the,
the governors turned up on all of them,
so they're running either more efficiently
or faster, is that's the idea.
- Yeah, I think that's areally good way to put it.
And, you know, different partsof biostimulants will, uh,
uh, upregulate different partsof the plant metabolism or,
or growth, uh, rates and things like that.

(05:06):
Um, but yeah, I think, uh, the, uh,
primarily I look at these as,you know, biological products,
things like microorganisms and,
and biochemicals, um, thingsthat are usually plant derived
or discovered in nature
and then used, uh, um, toupregulate the plant metabolism,
whether that's with hormones
or, um, amino acids, fulvicacids, things like that.

(05:28):
- I like this term up-regulate.
Um, uh, I've heard it before,but I don't use it regularly.
And, um, I like it both forthe biology conversation,
but it also sounds like a great, um,
euphemism for getting high.
Like, like, oh man, I needto go up-regulate .
- That's awesome. .Uh, I like that a lot.
- So, so let, let's, let'stease apart now the synthetic

(05:51):
and the, and the natural biostimulants
because we're, we're mostlygonna be talking about, um,
natural biostimulants today.
Um, so WW when I
discuss bio natural biostimulants
with other regenerative growers,
we're usually talkingabout, um, you know, this
or that plant that we aregoing to, you know, do a,

(06:12):
a a a tea of or an extract of or a or a
or a, you know, a top dressof something like that
because we want, uh, some, uh,
naturally occurring biochemicalthat's in the plant.
We want that to seep into our biosphere.
And then when at theconventions, when I talk
with the synthetic biostimulant sales guys,

(06:32):
their products have always got these like
multisyllabic names that, that, um,
sound very scientific.
And sometimes they've, you know,
they've also been namedat some marketing name,
and so they have got a, a, areal different vibe to them.
Um, perhaps they'reperhaps the natural ones
and the synthetic ones are both trying

(06:53):
to do the same things, but I'm,
I'm guessing they have gotdifferent attributes that,
that you can share with us.
- Yeah, absolutely.
So I, I would think like,um, a lot of times when I,
when I think about syntheticbiostimulants, whether
that's something that is,you know, uh, discovered
through a natural process,
and then, you know, onecompound is isolated,

(07:13):
it really seems a lot to me,
like the pharmaceutical industry,
we find one active ingredient,we purify it, you know,
it shows in a lab and on the bench
that this is effective at whatever
we're trying to, uh, alleviate.
Um, and then all of the, uh, you know,
medicine is built off of that compound.
Um, and that's kind of
how I look at like thesynthetic aspect of that, where
potentially there's a, there's a chance

(07:34):
of missing some other minor chemicals
or, you know, metabolites
that might be from anatural product extract, um,
that would be missed, uh,
when things are justsynthesized in a lab versus, uh,
extractive through a naturalprocess like making it a
compost tea or, or breakingdown other, um, forms of,
of organic inputs like, uh, fish waste
or even, you know, cornwaste, things like that.

(07:56):
- Hearing you describe it, itactually reminds me a lot of
how we talk about the entourage effect
and the difference betweenisolates and whole plant.
It sounds a lot like the synthetic, um,
the synthetic bio stimulantsare often like isolates.
They are an isolated biochemical
that we're gonna apply the plant one way
or another, versus thecompost tea kind of flavor.

(08:19):
That's more like takinga whole plant medicine
because we're getting allthese, these random, uh,
plant constituents that, um,
that we may not have even researched yet,
but we know that as a symphony, they,
they interact reallywell with the human body.
Um, what do you think about that?
- Yeah, I would agree with that.
I think it's really similar to

(08:39):
how people talk about theentourage effect of, of cannabis
and, you know, terpenoidsand things like that.
Um, the same thing goes for,you know, whether these,
these compounds, whether a synthetic
or natural bio stimulant is,
is directly influencing the plant.
There's a, there's a good chance it is,
it's also really helping out like the soil
microbiome most likely.
Uh, things like, youknow, the upregulation

(08:59):
of the can be afactor of, uh, an increased rate
of, you know, soil respirationor soil organic matter,
or just general beneficialsoil ecological components.
Um, you know, things likeamino acids, uh, the things,
or one of the, um, smaller terms
underneath the largerbio stimulant umbrella
can become building blocks

(09:20):
for protein synthesis inboth plants and microbes.
Um, so by providing thatsource that might be, you know,
deficient in the soil
or, um, you know, out competedby other microbes, if a,
a grower can add thatin there, um, whether
that's helping the plant directly
or the soil ecology,
the whole system has benefited at least,
um, from what we've seen.Mm-Hmm, .
- Mm-Hmm, .So, um, you know, I,

(09:40):
I rec I do recognize thatI've got a certain amount
of prejudice againstsynthetic biostimulants simply
because they are synthetic.
And I know that, um, that isoften unfair of me just to,
um, discount thingsbecause they're synthetic.
Um, you know, outside of thefact that just on its face,

(10:01):
I prefer organicgardening and organic food
and organic seeds becauseI like to, um, you know,
have my garden be as closeto nature as possible.
Um, is there really any,you know, a priori reason to
discount or not includesynthetic bio stimulants?

(10:22):
And, and what, what I'm gonnacompare it to is, you know,
we often talk about, you know,
bought bottled saltfertilizers on this show about
how they kind of force feednutrition to cannabis plants.
And by doing that, um, you know,
you might get a robust plant,
but you're also getting aplant that is out of balance
and over the long term ismore susceptible to plants

(10:43):
and can have all sorts of other problems
because you're, you'reforcing it right now.
Um, is there, is, are thereany mechanisms like that
with synthetic biostimulants that are a reason
to reject them because ofhow they function instead
of just me being prejudicedbecause they are not organic?
- No, I, I understand whereyou're coming from with the, um,

(11:05):
the synthetic prejudice and I, I kind
of adapt similar principles,
like in my own gardeningand, and things like that.
Um, I guess I wanna askyou a question about, uh,
what might be considered,I guess, synthetic
to take a step back here.
Um, I'm familiar with a process, uh,
for an amino acid product that is, um,
taking waste from the fishing industry.
So lots of shrimp shells and,
and crab shells and things like that.

(11:25):
And then they're put into a reactor.
A couple enzymes are added tobreak down the, the fish waste
or the, you know, the crustacean waste.
Um, and then the end productis both, uh, you know,
amino acids and, and chitinand other things like that.
Um, so that is, youknow, synthetically, uh,
the breakdown process issynthetically increased
with these enzymes in the reaction.

(11:45):
Um, but if you were to kindof slowly compost, you know,
shrimp and crab shells and,
and things like that in yoursoil, you might have a similar,
uh, endpoint product or,you know, beneficial effect
of the soil system.
Um, so I guess, how do you feelabout that kind of process?
Is that what you callthat more synthetic kind
of towing the linebetween the two of them?
Or just is that purely synthetic
'cause you know, lab equipmentand bioreactors are involved?

(12:07):
- Yeah, it's an interestingquestion to kind
of tease the definition.
Um, uh, definitely at, at from the top,
I'll say the wordsynthetic is a messy term.
'cause it, it's, it's kindof like a, it's, it's,
it's a bucket i ofideas that are different
to pretty much everybodywho hears the word.
And it is best applied ona, on a case by case basis

(12:29):
based on what you are, you know,
based on this little examplethough, um, it sounds like
that is a, um, a, a non,
- It's tricky, right?
- Yeah, it istricky. It sounds like
it's a natural process, right?
It, it sounds like you're,you're just processing
by adding other natural processes.
So it's, you've got,you've got natural, natural

(12:52):
naturally occurring product A
and you're a adding naturallyoccurring products B and C
and, you know, you put them together
and it causes the breakdownto happen into a, you know,
a usable nutrition faster.
Um, you know, if we were to,if we were to go long on this
and make it the, the, you know,the, the brunt of the show,
I would probably have to aska bunch of questions about

(13:14):
what are the natures of the inputs and,
and where that line might bedrawn between, um, you know,
adding, adding inputs that, that, um,
either inhibit natural reactions
or create non-natural reactions
to get whatever you'retrying to, you know,
produce, produce.
But, but, um,
that's a slippery slope rightthere, of course, right?

(13:36):
- . Absolutely. Yeah.
Um, and yeah, I think, I mean, you know,
the processes would,would, uh, you know, uh,
theoretically occur in naturejust a little bit longer time
for those enzymes to unlock some of the,
the polymers like things in, you know, the
exoskeletons of crustaceans.
Um, but yeah, we are synthetically
or, you know, in this typeof process development, uh,

(13:57):
somebody would besynthetically upregulating
or increasing the rate ofdecomp to make these things, um,
you know, in a more plant usable form.
That way the plants andthe soil microbes have
to expend less energy, um,on breaking down things,
and they can just be, you know, slurped up
and used, uh, efficiently.
Um, so yeah, I think itkind of tells the line
between synthetic and natural.
But one thing that is, iskind of cool in processes such

(14:19):
as these, um, I know there'ssimilar ones for corn
and soy, uh, based biostimulants.
Um, they do put, uh, a use
and end use product to things
that might be consideredwaste material prior to, um,
these types of reactions.
Mm-Hmm.
- And I guess we just wanna make sure that
that waste material is handledin a responsible way, if,
if we're gonna produce it at all.

(14:40):
- Absolutely. And, you know,when it is not waste material,
when it's, you know, host material for a,
a crustacean farmer or a, a corn
or so farmer, we wanna makesure that, uh, those plants or,
or animals are being treated
and, uh, you know, uh,the management practices
of cultivating those are alsonot gonna influence the inputs
that we wanna feed our plants
later. Mm-Hmm, . Mm-Hmm,
- .
So, um, so let's talk a littlebit about, um, some of the,

(15:03):
the natural biostimulantsthat come up, uh,
the most often in, uh,cannabis cultivation.
I'm thinking, uh, humic
and phobic acids, seaweedextracts, uh, different types
of microbial innoculants
and then amino acids, whichyou've already mentioned.
Um, are these all, are,are these different types
of natural biostimulantsworking on, um, different, um,

(15:27):
uh, biological systemsof the cannabis plant?
Or are they all essentiallyacting on the same
system, but in different ways?
- Yeah, they would definitely,um, act on, you know,
the same system as awhole, the plant, the soil,
the microbes and whatnot.
But every, every part,
everything you just mentionedhas a slightly different, uh,
effect on the biomefrom what I understand.

(15:49):
Um, you know, helix andFXs can be great sources
of organic matter for both the plant
and the soil microbes to use as inputs.
Uh, whereas things like seaweedextracts often contain plant
hormones like cytokine and content
and, um, um, I think some phosphorus
or potassium as well.
Um, so we get a little bit ofplant nutrition from there,

(16:10):
as well as some, you know,plant hormones, uh, applied
outside of the plant body rather
than being produced within it.
Um, microbial innoculants,I think these guys, uh,
really depends on your soil
and the history of that, that system
or your indoor cultivation system.
Um, but those wereprimarily, you know, uh,
if they're administeredin a drench, be, uh,
benefiting the root systemsof the plants as well

(16:31):
as the neighboring microbesthat might already be there.
And then we have, you know,foliar spray microbial
inoculants too that help,um, outcompete things
that might be negative toplant performances like
molds and stuff like that.
Um, so yeah, it, it reallyis a whole system of, of, uh,
effects, you know, different,different building blocks, uh,
from the bio stimulant worldwill help different areas

(16:53):
of the plant, as you mentioned.
And, um, yeah, it's, it's,it's a fun big umbrella term
because there's so muchgoing on underneath the,
the umbrella that is biostimulants Mm-Hmm.
- , it's alsosounds like it's a very fine line
between biostimulants and nutrition, um,
because some of the, you know, some
of the positive attributes
that you mentioned from seaweedextracts are different, um,

(17:15):
you know, nutritive, um, substances.
Is, is there a line, isthere a scientific line
between nutrition and biostimulants, or,
or do they kind of likesee into each other?
A lot of times
- I think the line is maybedotted as opposed to, uh,
you know, less of a gradient,less of a firm line, um, where
that, where a lot of bios,

(17:36):
stimulant compounds canhave some form of MPK
or even micronutrients in there.
Um, but then when welook at plant nutrition,
those are products with NPK isalmost the biggest number on
the label besides the productname for the most part.
Um, so that's kind of how Isee the separation between,
you know, nutritional inputs versus bio
stimulant based inputs.
But it is kind of a gray area
or a gradient where you havesome trickling effects of,

(17:59):
of the, um, you know,
amino acid type biostimulantshaving some, some form of NP
or K in them as well. Yeah. At
- Using that definition, it, uh,
biostimulants becomesreally, really close to, um,
like, like trace nutrientsand trace minerals.
It's like, oh, if, ifyou're not talking about NPK
and you're just talking abouteverything else, you're,

(18:21):
you're talking about, youknow, biostimulants, um,
including things that we don'tget in, in, you know, kind
of targeted genericfertilizers that we add
because we wanna round outthe ri the rhizosphere with,
with, um, essential micros.

(18:42):
- Yeah, absolutely.And, um, one other thing
to mention too is, is, you know, whether
or not, uh, well, another,another reason I guess that the,
the line between nutrition
and bio stimulation is maybea little bit more blurry at
this point in science, uh, is
because things like, um,certain bacteria have enzymes
to unlock, uh, unavailableforms of phosphorus such
as calcium phosphate, sounavailable for plant uptake.

(19:04):
Um, so, you know, there'sno nutrition in in that type
of bacterial product,
but it can help unlock nutrition
that might already be in your soil.
Uh, things like Michalproducts too, I think from
what I've seen, um, also sometimes have a,
a phosphorous content as well.
So, um, you know, somebodymight apply a Michle product
for the first time and see areally great, uh, you know,

(19:25):
flowering boost in their cannabis plants,
and it's hard to attribute thatto the michie being present
or the, the increased amount
of phosphorus being also available
for the plant or, or probably both.
- Yeah. I wish that whenwe try a whole bunch
of new things at the same time
and we get good results,
we could just straightup ask the plant which
one caused it, my friend.

(19:46):
- That would be amazing. Andyeah, I wanna, I wanna talk
to the soil microbiome as well.
I'm looking forward to those developments
maybe with ai .
- There we go. So, uh,
before we move on fromBiostimulants, um, let's, uh,
let's bring this conversation
and make it like real, um,real rubber hits the road.
So for, for the cultivatorswho are listening, um,

(20:07):
who are like, okay, Iunderstand the difference
between the synthetic andthe biostimulants as much
as we can get to definitionally,I like the idea of
offering naturalbiostimulants to my plants.
Um, what are some that yourecommend from the natural world
that regenerative farmerscan, um, use at home
that will have, you know,reliably good effects?

(20:28):
You know, some of the, someof the stuff is so obscure
and its impact is so small
that you can have adebate about whether some
of these did anything atall in particular, but,
but what are a couple like tried
and true naturally occurringbio stimulants that, um,
that our listeners can,um, you know, explore for,
for pretty assured benefit?
- Yeah, I mean, I think alot of it really depends on

(20:50):
where your plants are gonnabe going if it's going into a
hydroponic or controlledenvironmental system, um,
versus a soil system, um,you know, plays a role.
But I am biased to the, the soil microbes
and the root adhering microbes
or the plant growth promoting microbe.
- So, so are we here atshaping fire? So ?
- Yeah, absolutely. Uh, soyeah, I mean, from what, from
what I've seen in both research
and at home cultivation,uh, the sooner microbes get

(21:13):
introduced to a plant root,um, I like to think about it
as a really good protectiveand enhancing form.
Uh, one of my favoriteanalogies here is think of that,
that radical, that that firstlyemerged plant root from your
seed or your clone, um, beinglike an empty seat at a table
with, you know, let's say a hundred seats.
Um, the, the plant is gonnabe exuding root ex exits all

(21:35):
over that table and,um, through the roots.
And those are basicallylike adding different types
of food sources to the, the table here.
Um, the sooner that those seats
of the table can be colonizedwith plant benefiting
or soil ecology benefiting,
or even just free living,uh, microorganisms, um,
maybe not colonized, butpresent and taking up space
and competing for resources,the more likely, um,

(21:57):
the cultivator, uh, would be, you know,
not seeing things like plant disease.
Um, the, if the seeds can be full filled
with things like plantbenefiting microorganisms, um,
whether they're from a compostsystem, living soil, uh,
indigenous microorganism, cultivating, uh,
or even a biological inoculateyou can buy off on a shelf,
I think that is probably thebest way to really prime young

(22:20):
or new plants for, uh, you know,a successful harvest cycle.
Um, filling those seatsup with the table, uh,
allowing those resourcesto be used by things
that are maybe symbiotic
or mutualist with the plants to, you know,
the benefit is, is a feedback loop.
Um, whereas a pathogenmight only, you know,
consume a root exit until itcan get in high enough numbers
to penetrate the plant celland then become pathogenic.

(22:42):
Uh, the less seats at that table that are
for things like fusarium or phytopthora
or pythium, um, the lesslikely, uh, you know,
that plant is gonnahave a negative effect.
- I really like that seatsat a table, uh, um, example
that I can really envision that.
And so, so your first answeris to, you know, add a bunch

(23:02):
of, uh, you know, of, ofindigenous microbes, um, so
that the seats of the tablecan get filled with, um, with,
uh, probiotic folks beforeanything pathogenic shows up.
And, um, you know, uh,
and there's a, you know,there's a, there's a,
there's a range of ways thatwe talk about on this show
to add microbes and, and,

(23:24):
and you're like, just, you know, add them,
add them right away as soon as,as soon as the plant starts.
Um, for the second one, is there something
that might be more nutritionbased instead of like,
having good neighbors based like microbes
that you would also recommend as a, um,
naturally occurring bios stimulant?

(23:45):
- Yeah, so I think my, mybias is really gonna show
with this answer, ,
but, um, uh, you know, I talkedabout the probiotics, right?
I also think that prebioticsare just as important,
especially in, in soilless systems or,
or, you know, uh, nearsterile systems, right?
Hydroponics and things like that.
Um, plants evolve roots
with their relationships with microbes.
Uh, Dr. White and all
of his research surroundingOph Fiji has really been, uh,

(24:07):
a beneficial disruption in,in agricultural research.
Yeah. And I think that, uh, a lot
of growers have tried really hard
to maintain a sterilesystem, which, you know,
your plants don't want sterile systems.
They're often, youknow, exuding, uh, cakes
and cookies, sugars
and carbon into the, thesurrounding soils to try
to get microbes to colonize there.
So, uh, a long way toanswer your question,

(24:28):
I think like prebiotics,things like organic materials,
humic, fulvic acids, um,we know what those can do
to benefit the plant and,
and how they are benefitingthe soil microbiome
and how that's benefitingthe plant is still being
kind of flushed out.
Um, but I do think that, uh,
your plants are gonnabenefit from these compounds
that you're applying, whether
or not they're for theplant or the bacteria.

(24:49):
And, uh, usually theapplication rates from things,
whether you're whipping up a compost tea
or doing like a, a plant extract
or purchasing something, um,there's enough to go around
for both the plants and the microbes.
- Fantastic. I love that.
When, when we keep on comingback to, you know, grab plants
that are already in your yard
and let them, um, decay inwater, you know, spin that

(25:12):
for 36 hours and then pourthat back on your plants.
I love that cycle, bringingback, um, you know,
what's already in your yard, the plants,
the grass clippings, theforest duff, whatever it is,
incubate it for a little bit
to make those microbes super abundant
and then just pour it back on your plants.
- Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that,
and it's, it's always, youknow, a fun term is like kind

(25:34):
of bio prospecting being out.
Ooh, I like that.
In, in soil, uh, in thewoods, in the forest,
or anywhere that, youknow, it's okay to kind of,
I'm gonna use the word sample from, um,
I know you guys havetalked about indigenous
microorganisms here.
Um, but yeah, like the,the ability to kind of
collect some microbial diversity,um, from maybe a forest

(25:57):
or, uh, somebody with a
better historical soil healthpractice than maybe the plot
you inherited, um, is also agreat way to, you know, add
that microbial diversity.
Um, if you, you know, wehave these like notions of,
of plant micro symbiosis, uh,in science where, you know,
we wanna look at a reallyhappy cannabis plant
and then collect some soilmicrobes from its roots

(26:18):
and then take that home andapply it to our cannabis plants.
So they do well too. Um,
but there's a lot offunctional redundancy in the,
the rhizosphere microbiomeworld, whether that's a palm tree
or a cannabis plant or some grass.
Um, so you might evenbe able to get some type
of beneficial microbialfunction from sampling something
like grass, uh, and applyingit to your, to your home grow,
or, you know, making a compost tea

(26:40):
out of it, or a soil slurry.
- Right on. So, uh, so dear listener,
if you're very interested in,in moving, uh, these microbes
around, um, sit tight,
'cause we're gonna be comingback to this topic again
with set two or in set two.
So Michael, um, I wanna moveus on past biostimulants now,
uh, to what I considerone of their cousins
that I know less about, which is, uh,

(27:02):
plant growth regulators.
And, you know, I, I firstgot turned on to, uh,
plant growth regulators kindof as a, as a slur, as a dis
when I would come acrosslike really rock hard, um,
indoor Rockwell buds,
and that, that, you know,I, I would squeeze them.
And as a, you know, as a, asa lifelong outdoor grower,

(27:25):
when you squeeze my flowers, there's,
there's some give to them.
Whereas these were like,like literally rocks.
And I was all like, what,what kind of cannabis is this?
Right? And people are like, you know,
because I tend to hang out with,you know, organicy farmers,
they'd say somethinglike, ah, it's those PGRs
that they use, you know,and I'm like, I don't know
what those are, but, but I,

(27:46):
I certainly don't want any part of that.
And, and over time I realizedit's true that synthetic PGRs
and, and what they have a tendency to do
to the plant are not somethingthat I'm normally going for.
But then I started to realize, um, while,
while studying the soil foodweb, that there are actually
naturally occurring, um,biochemicals in plants that,

(28:10):
um, you know, that we can wildcraft that also are pro, um,
plant growth regulators so thatmaybe you can get, you know,
harder flowers that havegot a, a market attraction
and an aesthetic attractionin ways that don't also, um,
you know, injure the plant
and make it, you know, need

(28:30):
to be grown in a sterileenvironment instead of the yard.
So, so, so I'm gonna askyou, number one, would you,
would you, would you explain for us
what plant growth regulators are
and, um, where we may find them in,
uh, the natural world?
- Yeah. Um, so the way I kind of, uh,
understand plant growthregulators would be just kind of,
um, hormones, uh, the, the plant hormones,

(28:54):
things like ox oxygens, giin, cytokinin,
and, uh, you know, natural sources
of those things like seaweedis a really, um, common
input used for cytokinin, uh, PGRs.
Um, I think, um, like we talkedabout a little bit earlier,
uh, you know, when youdo the wildcrafting,
you do the natural pro, uh, process and,
and take your plantinputs or get materials

(29:16):
and do the extraction yourself,
you are likely getting thingsthat might be missed, uh,
as opposed to one, anoxen is purified in a lab
and dried out into a powder
and then, you know,mailed to you in a tube
to dip your plant roots in
before rooting them .
Um, yeah, I mean, I, the way I kind
of see 'em would justbe plant hormones, uh,
whether they're natural or synthetic.

(29:36):
I think they can be helpful for growers
and, you know, helpfulfor making, uh, deadlines
and yield improvements and quality
improvements and things like that.
Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I stillkind of am in the school
of thought of, you know, these,
these natural processeslike breaking down, uh,
organic inputs, um, would, we're,
we're probably missing somethingwhen we're applying just

(29:56):
to pure compound, but,uh, further, you know,
science needs to prove that .
- So, so if we're talkingabout ge, you know,
getting these oxen andcytokines and giin and, and,
and putting them on,
and they we're getting 'em from plants,
it sounds awful lot like we'retalking about biostimulants
again, and, and, and,
and perhaps there isan argument to be made
that plant growth regulators

(30:17):
and natural bio stimulantsare all in the bucket of
plants that have got chemicals, hormones,
and nutrition that are alsoused by the cannabis plant
that we just wanna wild craft,
or what's that term youused, bio prospect, um,
you know, on our properties.
And, and then just allow them

(30:39):
to either degrade in their basic form
or incubate them with, you know, oxygen
and then apply them to our plants.
It, it sounds like it's the same system
just using different vocabulary.
- Yeah, I would agree with you on that.
I do think, like, you know,the PGR term fits, fits nicely
underneath the umbrella term
that is biostimulants in myworld, um, and maybe the world.

(31:02):
Uh, but yeah, you know,you think about, um,
how these compounds, um, ma mainly,
you know, the, the plant isnaturally producing these things
when it meets roots.
There's ox oxygens being producedinside the plant, um, to,
to signal those mar stemcells to turn into roots.
Um, but having, you know,furthered science, uh,

(31:22):
in agriculture, we as growerscan, can use these things
to get effects that we wantto, I know, um, in a lot
of the ornamental cropindustry things like, uh,
anti gis are sprayed on, you know, flowers
to keep them like tight and,uh, you know, not too lagy
or stretched out from the pot.
That way they make a nicecompact, bushy, you know, ponta

(31:42):
or a zinnia or something like that.
Um, so yeah, it, it's interestingto think about the use
of PG in products thatare gonna be consumed
by people rather than just enjoyed by, uh,
like aesthetically like flowersand, and things like that.
Um, and I think, um, I needto do more reading on,
on, you know, the, the, the,uh, the consumption of things

(32:03):
that might be residual onflower if the plant wasn't able
to use all them and, and,or even just surfactants
to get them to spread as well.
- So when I have talked with other
regenerative farmers aboutthe naturally occurring pgs
that they use, I only have evergotten one response either.
Either the farmers don'tthink of them in that way,

(32:24):
and so they're just usingdegraded plant, you know,
compost teas or, or spun aerated teas.
So they'll, they'll eithersay nothing, they don't,
they don't use one intentionally
or they will say banana peels.
And so, so, um, are, is there any, oh,
this is kind of a nice pun.
Is there any low hanging fruitthat you recommend where,

(32:46):
where we can go for, um, the, the hormones
that have the effect on the cannabis plant
that we're looking for?
So we don't have to go tosynthetics, for example,
if we want tighter flowers anda more compact overall plant.
Uh, do we wanna go to a banana peel
or are there things thatwe may have access to

(33:06):
that you think might be, um, you know,
better for us to go after?
- Yeah, I think ultimately,I don't have any sort
of materials off the top of my head on,
on things like anti gires.
I know seaweed is a goodone for cytokine in.
Um, I think people have used,uh, you know, honeys for,
for ox oxygens, whetherthat's, I'm not sure if
that's actually a root increaser
or if it's just a goodantimicrobial for, uh, you know,

(33:28):
pathogens that might infectthe plant before it can root.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I,I'm a huge composter, um,
and I'm a big fan ofverma compost as well.
Yeah. Um, so I think, you know, doing
that stuff in the backyardwhen space allows, uh,
there's indoor systemsthat are really great too.
I have a, a friend that didlike a three bucket stack system
where the worms were in the, the bottom,
the new food waste went in the top,

(33:48):
and when they ran out of food,they would kind of dig up
and kind of make it a closed loop system.
So there are ways to kind
of get those organic materialsbroken down depending on, um,
the space you might have.
Um, yeah, I, you know, I,the other kind of school
of thought too is whenI was a lot younger, I,
I was always told, youknow, dig a hole, six
or seven feet underground,bury a couple dead fish there,

(34:09):
and that's where we'll plantour cannabis plants the
following spring, right in the fall.
Uh, and it's been coolto kind of enter more
of the sciencey realmof this kind of stuff
and seeing like, oh, well, yeah,
the fish breaks down into a, a ammonium
or some form of an H four orthree, um, and the emulsions
and, you know, they,they provide nutrition
from those breakdown products.
Um, so I just, just, one thing
that I love about thecannabis science industry is,

(34:31):
or just cannabis science ingeneral, is kind of seeing, um,
you know, old school of thought growers
with these really wise practices
that we are just nowstarting to understand, uh,
and can be measured scientificallywith, with, you know,
how does a fish break down in the soil
and what types of plantinputs does it turn into?
- Yeah. All, all of this oldschool, um, cultivation magic,

(34:54):
you know, eventuallyscience catches up with it
and it's like, oh yeah, Iguess, I guess, you know,
the old hippies were rightin what they were doing here.
Absolutely. It's like, yeah, yeah.
Uh, everything old isnew again, so Right on.
Well, uh, let's, let's wrapup this first set here.
Um, we're gonna take a shortbreak and be right back.
You are listening to Shaping Fire,
and my guest today ismicrobiologist Michael Delegue.

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(41:02):
I am your host Shose,
So during the first set,we talked all about, um,
bio stimulants and where tofind them in nature, as well as,
um, the idea of plant growth regulators.
And we kept on coming backto this idea that, um,
what we wanna do to help, um,

(41:23):
our cannabis plants the mostis to help the rhizosphere
to make sure that the nutrition
and variety of microbesare incredibly varied, um,
our our indigenous, so
that they survive in ourlocal natural environment,
and that we can bio prospectthem all over our own property
and near us, uh, by justgoing to other plants

(41:45):
that we already have locally.
And, um, not only does that save us money,
but we know that these plants
that are already survivinglocally are already covered in,
um, indigenous microorganisms.
So saves us money
and is exactly the tool for the job
to help you have your best grow ever.
So here in set two, we'regonna talk about the care
and tending of the microbe community

(42:07):
that's in your rhizosphere, right?
So these are, these are,um, all of the residents
of the rhizosphere, the rootzone, um, that make up the,
the, the, the soil food webthat is within the soil.
As we all know, the, thesoil food web also is
above the soil, and italso takes place in water.
But specifically we're talkingabout this, this neighborhood

(42:30):
of the roots of the cannabis plant.
So when I was listeningto Michael Delegue on, um,
our friend Layton Morrison'sshow, um, um, uh, he
and I, I guess I'm talkingto the audience, Michael,
and to you kind of third person.
You, you were talking on Layton'sshow, um, about your, um,

(42:51):
uh, uh, love of, of bi biochar,
which we're big fansof on the show as well.
And, and, um, and,
and I really liked how you kind of
anthropomorphized, uh, the microbes.
'cause you were talking about how, um, uh,
how biochar has got allthese like, you know, ridges
and places to live and,

(43:13):
and they've got these, um,these, these environments
that the, the microbes canset up housing and, and,
and where their nutrition grows and,
and how it just kind of makes like
for this perfect neighborhood.
And, and I always like to thinkabout my pots that way too,
or, or, you know, the soil that,
that I wanna make a goodneighborhood for my plants

(43:34):
to grow a bit as well.
So, so, so you, you
and I clearly enjoyanthropomorphizing microbes,
which, which I can support.
Um, let's go ahead
and start just kind ofgenerally with this idea of,
of creating neighborhoodsthat have got the kinds
of attributes in the soil that, um,
that these neighborhoods can build on.

(43:56):
What is the nature of soil structure
that makes good rhizosphere?
- I think a good balanceof, um, sand, silt
and clay obviously is, isa great way to, you know,
that definition of soilmakes a good structure
for the microbes to colonize.
But I think a really important thing
that is often overlooked,uh, would be things that, uh,
we call max MAC, uh, microbiallyforms of accessible carbon

(44:20):
or microbe accessible carbon.
Um, your plants are, you know,
constantly depositingthese things into the soil
through root ex exits,uh, as well as, you know,
any organic matter, um,
and different types ofbreakdown processes in soil
or other systems, um, canprovide these forms of max, uh,
carbon sources, food sources
for the microbes to be in there.
Um, you know, biochar beingcarbon based is a really

(44:42):
great form of this.
Other things like fulls
and, um, um, different like, you know,
cellulose breakdown productsare another great way to kind
of feed microbes in the soil.
- So, um, so I is the primary, uh,
i i is the primary, I'llsay the first, not the only,
but is the primary attribute

(45:03):
of creating a goodneighborhood, making sure
that there's lots of these max rounds.
So there's there always highquality carbon for them to eat
that, like at the top of the list.
- I would, I would put thatat the top of the list just
because, uh, if you applysomething like a biological to a,
a near sterile system, I'll,
I'll never call it hydroponicsystem sterile, um,
just becausethere's microbes everywhere.

(45:23):
Microbial ubiquity. Mm-Hmm. .
Um, but we do have, you know,the, the notion of, uh, a lot
of that stuff can be wasted ifthere's not food sources to,
to feed the microbes.
You know, you hear about with your gut
and gut health prebiotics with probiotics.
Um, that's, you know,feeding also the things
that might be residentto your system, whether
or not they're applied, uh, from a bottle
or from, uh, indigenousmicroorganism hunting. Mm-hmm,

(45:46):
- .
So, so what are, um, sources of these macs
that we can wildcraft and,
and how do we, how dowe process them into it?
I mean, you know, the biochar,um, you know, we can use
as a soil amendment and somepeople like to crush it up and,
and, um, and, you know, topdress it into their water
so it slowly works their way in.

(46:07):
But give us, give us some more idea of how
to think about these Macs and,
and where we can bio prospectthem into our cultivation.
- Absolutely. Yeah. I mean,I think, um, I'm going
to do a callback to biostimulants, right?
There's lots of Maxs, uh,in different tiers of bios,
stimulant products or, or,uh, things that you can get
or procure naturally with wildcrafting.

(46:27):
Um, and essentially, you know, the, uh,
the plant is also feeding your microbes.
So as long as your plants are health, uh,
maintained optimal health and nutrition,
there is gonna be some source of,
of max in the systemfrom the root exodus too.
Um, but you will, you know,
plants also can re-uptake root ex exits.
Uh, so there is a degree
of plant microbe competitionfor these food sources.

(46:48):
Um, but going back to thatkind of old, uh, wisdom
cultivation, uh, youknow, thinking, um, people
that I hear a lot of peoplehave really strong opinions
about applying molasses, uh, as a,
as a input and during flour.
Um, and I've alwayskind of understood that
as we're feeding the soilmicrobes rather than we're,
you know, giving sugar to help
increase flour synthesisor something like that.

(47:10):
- Yeah. Yeah. We've, we'vetalked on this show many times
how, you know, the addingof molasses into the pot.
Um, what you're doing isthrowing your, your, um,
your pot out of balance.
What you wanna do is, ifyou're gonna use the molasses,
is feed the, feed the microbes in your,
in your aerated compost brewer,
let them eat the molassesthere and incubate them.

(47:32):
So now you have a whole bunch of them.
And then put that compost teathat's not hot anymore into
your, your rhizosphere.
Is, is that the, are those
the steps that you're referring to? Yeah,
- Yeah.
I think that that is probablythe best practice to do it.
Um, for those who, youknow, aren't able to kind
of have the lead time tobrew cup a compost tea and,
and feed it sugar andwhatnot, I think, um,

(47:54):
just a very diluted form,
an irrigation solution canalso kind of benefit those,
those microbes thatmight be in your roots.
- Right on. I wanna push youa little bit on specificity
because you said thatthere are, um, you know,
various plants that we can wildcraft
where we can get the max from.
Um, just for examples to get us started,
because we, we all knowthat we can like, you know,

(48:16):
Google it or ask GPT or something,
but from you, will you giveus three mac rich plants
that we might be able towildcraft just so you know, people
who just want to jump on it,know what, where to start?
- Y you know, I think, um,I'm always gonna go back
to compost and those breakdown processes.

(48:36):
Um, I, I would, when Isay, you know, you ask
for specific plants, Idon't know that I have any
of those off the top of my list,
but, um, I, I think, you know, carbon
and nitrogen sources, uh,essentially, um, can help
increase available max,uh, whether, whether
or not they are being added to your system
or the nutrients, youknow, the compost pile
or something like that provided.

(48:57):
Um, but in terms of kind of going out and,
and foraging up a bunch of plants
and making a tea out of that, I,
uh, I would have to do some more
- Research.
Right on, you know, your,your hesitation kind
of like suddenly re-concontextualized everything for me is,
is it potentially the answerto the question I asked that,
um, these Macs are in everything
because carbon is a building block.

(49:18):
So, so long as I'm startingwith a, a local healthy
thriving plant, it's gonna have max in it.
So just use whatever Ihave a lot of around me
and use a variety ofplants that are around me.
And then if I wanna upit, we'll then go ahead
and do some online research
and find out the types of plantsthat are more rich in max.

(49:42):
But it, it, I'm starting to get the idea,
since we keep on coming back to compost,
that the max are everywhere and,
and so just use whatever you have.
- Yeah. Yeah, I wouldagree with that. Thank you.
Um, and another kind ofway to put it, you know,
or another, I guess usingwhatever you have should,
should be used with cautiona little bit as, as a lot
of people know, you know, ifyou look for, uh, broken down,

(50:02):
dried out plant material,um, you wanna make sure
that didn't come from anything diseased.
Uh, obviously, you know, you'd want that
to be fully broken downand in a composting system
or a, a heat breakdown type of format, uh,
before you add somethingthat might be, you know,
degraded a, you know, a leaf loss due
to xanthomonas bacteria in theleaf or something like that.
Right. We don't wannareintroduce that to our system,

(50:23):
but, um, you know,
plant health is veryimportant too when you're,
when you're kind of wildcrafting
- Right. On
- All that to say.
- Alright, so, so when we'retalking about the care tending
of microbes, obviouslywe want to include a lot
of these Macs so that there,there's a, a varied buffet all
through the rhizosphere,um, for, for, um, uh,

(50:43):
for all the varieties of,of, of residents to eat.
So, so let's go, um, so longas you think we've covered
that well enough, let'sgo beyond the nutrition
for the microbes eating the carbon,
and let's talk about someof the other, um, attributes
of soil structure thatmight also be, um, um,

(51:05):
beneficial to, to the rhizosphere.
And, and again, I might beover anthropomorphizing here,
but in my notes I put likeshelter reproduction space,
you know, you know, um, uh,non-carbon nutrition, like,
like the idea
of shelter may not actuallyexist in soil in the

(51:27):
rhizosphere, but, but it seemslike it should exist there
because you have got more,
more predator residents in the biosphere
and more passive residentsin the biosphere.
And, and, you know,normally life forms need
to take shelter when they reproduce.
And so, you know, I I'm very willing

(51:48):
to be very wrong on this, right?
But, but is it, tell us a little bit about
how the community interacts
and if there are attributes of our soil
and amendments that, thatpotentially provide more
of this shelter and reproduction space
and non-carbon nutrition.
- Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Ithink, uh, uh, the best place

(52:08):
for plants to over winter, um, in terms
of seasonal changes would be in the roots
and in the, in the kind ofskeletonized plant bodies
that are no longer actively growing.
Um, that's a great placefor microbes to over winter
and be ready to, uh, be introduced
to your plants when you'replanting them in the springtime.
And then I just do wanna circleback a little bit on the max
stuff and say one more thing.
Sure. Um, I wanna go backto, uh, I wanna quote Dr.

(52:29):
Elaine Ham from the soil food web
and say, you know, what domicrobes love, uh, sugars, right?
And that's why the cakes
and cookies that are the rootexodus are really kind of,
you know, being depositedby the plants in theory to,
to colonize or recruit microbesto the, to the root zone.
Um, the other thing that Iwanted to mention was going back
to that, that big open tableanalogy with empty seats.

(52:49):
Um, uh, another kind ofenhancement of this theory is,
is like, uh, if thattable's being catered and,
and there is only, you know,slabs of meat being put on
that table, only, only, uh, you know,
carnivore type people aregonna be sitting down there
to consume that stuff, right?
So we also wanna provide a lotof diverse inputs of, of max,
whether that is, uh,different types of compost tea

(53:13):
or sugar sugars like molasses
or, you know, just com,uh, broken down leaves
and pine straw and stuff like that.
Um, but the importantthing is by providing a lot
of different forms ofmicrobial accessible carbon,
we're feeding, uh, lots
of different functionalmicrobes in the soil, right?
So if, if there's, um, ifthat table's being catered
with vegetables, meat,

(53:33):
and a little bit of both,we're gonna have omnivores,
vegetarians, vegans, and,
and carnivores all sitting at that table.
Uh, the same applies inmy, in my head at least
to the plant roots, right?
So if the, the tomatoroot is only exiting the,
the same compounds, tomato plants exude,
then only a few types of microbes
or functional microbes are gonna be able
to use those food sources.
Um, so the grower can kindof apply different forms

(53:56):
of max molasses, compost, stuff like that,
or even companion planting,um, to provide a lot
of different food sources because, uh,
the general thinking inmicrobiome sciences health is very
closely associated with highdiversity in a microbiome.
- Alright, so with my next question,
I'm gonna set up a little, um,

(54:16):
a little example first about EM one,
and, you know, a lot offolks like to use em one
and, um, the idea is like,okay, you can buy em one,
which is a, a blend of microbes
and you can add it to your plants
and your plants will love it.
And if you want to expandthe bottle so your, your,
your bottle lasts longer, there's, uh,
usually instructions on theback of how you can do a, um, a,

(54:41):
a simple aerated tea so that you can
expand what's in your bottle.
But, but eventually, ifyou just keep on brewing it
and brewing it, um, the, themicrobes that are differently
com aggressive andcompetitive, the balance
that is in the actual em onebalance that they recommend,

(55:01):
it'll eventually get out of balance.
And so you have to go and,you know, get a new bottle
of em one and, and start over
with the the actual balanced product.
Um, so, so using that asthe example, um, if we are
grabbing, uh, lots ofdifferent plants that are local
to our area that are thriving

(55:22):
and we are, um, either degrading them
or extracting them intosome sort of extract
or aerated compost tea, is there any, um,
awareness we should have about the balance
of those microbes
and nutrition that we'reactually putting into the pot?
If, if, if, if we do want to have our, um,

(55:46):
rhizosphere life to be in balance
and we influence that balance by
what we're adding from ourcompost pile as a tea, do we need
to be worried aboutthrowing off the balance
of the residents ofthe, of the rhizosphere
because we are feedingout of balanced, uh, teas?

(56:09):
- Uh, yeah, actually thatis, that is a major concern.
And, um, it's cool that,that a product like
that has those types ofinstructions for kind of increase,
you know, bang for your buck.
Um, but yes, I think, uh, my best advice,
and this is maybe my opinion,
but based on some science, um,
would be when you're makingthose types of products, try
to use them up, um, youknow, do, do your research
and say you, you've found a lot of sources

(56:31):
to say 48 hours is the ideal incubation
or aeration time for a compostt try to use that up, uh,
pretty, pretty quickly,uh, after it's ready to go.
Um, and I think that is basedon the thinking that, um,
all types of microbes, whetherthere's one thing in a bottle
or a thousand things from a sample
of compost have different, uh,growth and metabolism rates.

(56:52):
So, um, when thingsare grown together, uh,
the term is like co cultured.
Um, the faster growers arealways gonna be able to have that
add advantage towards the othermembers of that, you know,
biome, um, because they'rejust, uh, genetically advantaged
to eat faster and dividefaster and break down faster.
Right. So you can see things like, um,
if you let a compost tsit for two weeks, uh,

(57:14):
maybe if it's aerated, um,as opposed to one week, I bet
that that microbiomecompletely shifts Yeah.
Just based on the ability
for those faster growersto become dominant.
And I think, you know, thediversity was probably the
highest within the first 72hours of brewing a compost tea.
And that starts to probablytaper off just based on the way
microbial microbe ecologykind of works in that system.

(57:34):
Um, there's only somuch food around, right?
And, uh, if the fastesteaters are, you know, kind
of throwing their elbowsat the other ones and
and eating it faster, they'regonna become dominant.
And maybe those aren'tthe plant growth promoting
microbes that you're in search for.
Maybe they're just really good at eating
those Macs. Mm-Hmm. ,
- I like that idea that, that as you're,
as you're brewing it for36 to 48 hours and you're,

(57:56):
and you're pulling itout of the bucket, right?
Then you have got so many aerated microbes
and they've all just beengetting all the aeration
and nutrition that theycould possibly want,
which just means likeeverybody is fed and thriving
and at the starting line,
and that's when we wantto give it to our plants.

(58:16):
But the longer we get awayfrom that starting line
and let that compost teasit for one day, two day,
they're all, they're allalready racing and competing
and beating each otherup and eating each other.
And so by day, you know, three
or four, you, you're fullyat survival of the fittest at
that point, and you'renot providing a nice, even

(58:37):
balanced array ofnutrition and microbiology.
You're actually providingthem something imbalanced
that's going to have somesort of effect on your, um,
on your soil environment.Does that sound about right?
- Absolutely. Yeah. Imean, and the way to say
that is in microbiome sciences we use a
term called alpha diversity.
Um, so if I have a basket of fruit

(58:58):
and there's 10 pieces of fruit in there
and nine of them are apples
and one of them's an orange, I have
really low alpha diversity.
But if I have 10 piecesof fruit in a basket
and one's an apple, one'sa grape, one's a banana,
blueberry, everythingis a different thing.
Um, the parts of a hole are all different.
That is really high alpha diversity.
So the longer something likea compost tea might sit, um,
it's likely that you'd belowering your alpha diversity

(59:19):
where those fast growers
or good eaters are gonnabecome dominant. Um,
- Right on.
That's, that is super interesting.
And because I wanna lookthis up after the show.
Are you saying alpha A-L-P-H-A?
- That is correct, yes.- Alright, cool.
That's a very interestingidea. That is new to me
- And on compost teas as well.
Um, I, I collaborated on somethingwhen I was in school, uh,
where a colleague was makingverma compost tea from worm

(59:42):
castings and finished compost.
Um, and this person wasable to, uh, grow it up.
I think they did a 48 hour aeration.
Um, and then they boiled half of it
and then they appliedthe other half untreated.
And they actually found that,I think it was a basil host
or a tomato host, um,
those plants benefited morefrom the boiled compost tea.
Um, so this is not me suggesting
that everybody should beboiling their compost tea,

(01:00:04):
but maybe on their aerationtime they were able to,
you know, increase thepopulations of things
that might not directly benefit plants
and actually compete for plantsfor those beneficial parts
that get released whenwe make a compost tea.
Um, so it was kind of interestingto think about, you know,
boiling or trying to get themicrobes out of a compost tea.
The ones that can't survive boiling, uh,

(01:00:25):
actually made the plants do better.
Um, presumably from a reduced, uh, amount
of microbe competition for thesame things the plant wants
that kind of get releasedfrom the aeration
process in compost tea.
- Wow. Man. Boiling compost.
You just kind of blew my mind there.
Um, I'm gonna have tothink a lot about that.
But, but what I think aboutit immediately is that if, if,

(01:00:46):
if we've talked constantlythroughout this episode
so far about, um, thebiodiversity of the teas
and, you know, of the carbons
and of the plant sources thatwe continually pour into our
plants, that if I'm gonnamake aerated compost teas
and I'm also gonna docold extracted, uh, teas,

(01:01:07):
like I don't see any reasonwhy, uh, having a big pot
of boiled plants that I then let cool
and then apply to the plants.
'cause I'm gonna get a wholeDA whole different, um, cast
of characters in that.
And all I'm doing isincreasing my diversity
by using all threedifferent types of teas.

(01:01:28):
- I would agree withthat. Yeah, definitely.
You know, the, the, the nonboiled compost tea in the study
I'm referring to is, is kindof a balance of both probiotic
or just bacterial members andprebiotics, whereas likely
after it was boiled, you know,
it wasn't measured chemically,
but that was probably just more, uh, I,
I'm gonna use the term prebiotic,
but just, uh, kind ofthose, the metabolites
that are released from thecompost tea brewing process, um,

(01:01:49):
ready for the, the plant toslurp right up rather than kind
of have to share with the microbes.
- Right on. Alright, so, um,
before we move on to our next topic,
I wanna hit something one more time
because, um, you know, um,I've heard you kind of allude
to the fact that one of the good things
that biochar does in the soilstructure is to, you know,

(01:02:11):
not only provide, um, youknow, the carbon for food,
but also, um,
it's like a unique housingstructure, if you will.
'cause 'cause it's got allthese nooks and crevices.
Um, is, is there anything,and the answer may be no,
but I'm gonna try to squeezeyou on this anyway, is,
is there anything else thatwe should consider adding
as an amendment to our soil

(01:02:32):
that is less about nutrition
and having it break down toprovide, you know, foods,
which is what most of thestuff we do, um, is for,
but instead is something thatwe are gonna amend the soil
because it actually provides, um,
a physical mechanism that isgood for the microbe life?

(01:02:54):
- Yeah. Uh, I for that,I think, you know, the,
the biochar are a reallygood approach to that.
And I think I'll always recommendif people aren't already
doing this to get a starting soil test
before you start applyingyour innoculants or,
or inputs to that as well.
Um, but I think in terms of kind
of like housing the microbes
or giving them like a, a niceplace to live, um, you know,

(01:03:15):
again, I'm biased towardsthe soil systems as opposed
to like a hydroponic system,
but when we think aboutno-till, um, not only is
that really kind of maintaining,uh, soil, you know, carbon
that's stored from those plants, um,
but that's also keepingthose, those houses
for the microbes dormant in theplant roots ready to be, uh,
you know, introduced to thefresh roots that would be kind

(01:03:35):
of germinating in the same soils.
So, like my, me personally, um, I have one
of my experimental, you know,
garden beds in my backyard that I,
I've never tilled itfor and I'll plant seeds
or directly transplant things there.
And it seems to be, um,you know, speculative
that those plants get alittle bit of a boost, uh,
because the, you know, i,
I do apply heavy compostand things like that.

(01:03:55):
There's a lot of factorswe're not considering.
But I think a big thing is, you know,
those microbes haveoverwintering structures
and they were evolvedwith the plant to survive
through these, these, uh, you know,
cold temperatures and hot temperatures.
Um, so yeah, I think, uh,
people should maybeexperiment more with no-till
or, you know, companion planting
and things along those lines.
- Yeah, that certainly makes sense.

(01:04:17):
Uh, regarding our experience
with no-till every year thesoil just gets more mature
and it lasts better through the winter
and the, the, the, thefollowing years plants
or thriving, it's alwayshard as that first year
when people are using like, you know,
immature bagged soilwithout a lot of mycelium
and, you know, they getkind of mediocre plants.

(01:04:37):
Um, and then,
and then the longer they go,no-till the more, you know,
beefy the plants get.
- Yeah, yeah. It's like a,a a bettering, you know,
I think there's probably a limit
to it year three, year fouror something like that.
Mm-Hmm. Everybody's system's different,
but yeah, the more, themore organic material
and different types of plant materials
and, you know, theirroot exits, stuff like
that, you can get in that system.

(01:04:58):
You're adding that diversity,which is, you know,
really correlated withplant and microbe health
- Rotating in amending, youknow, no-till soil every,
you know, let's say four years.
Um, you know, it, that issuch a massive improvement.
Then the idea of, youknow, kind of old school
where every year you startwith new fresh, clean soil

(01:05:19):
that doesn't have any pathogens in it.
And while yeah, we wannaavoid the pathogens, um,
but the, the best way toactually keep pathogens at bay is
to have a vigorous soilthat's already aged.
And I always, I always feel bad for people
who are very much set on thenew season, new soil tip.
'cause it, it just, it justmakes things hard every year

(01:05:39):
instead of year threeand four being like easy.
- Yeah. To me, the, the, that kind
of feels like a scorchedearth type of approach.
. Um, and, and I likethat you mentioned, you know,
the diversity, uh, in what you just said.
Um, you know, we've seen,uh, things like fusarium uh,
species highly present, youknow, 10 to the sixth, 10
to the eighth cells pergram of soil, um, in a,

(01:06:02):
in a plant rhizosphere sample.
Um, but it's, you know,
very far along into flowermaturation and there's no signs
or symptoms of the fusariumattacking the plant.
Um, so it's like this,
the fusarium is taking oneseat at the seat, uh, the table
with a hundred seats andthe other 99 seats are plant
benefiting things orsoil benefiting things.
So, you know, pathogens can be present

(01:06:23):
without becoming virulent.
And it all comes back tosoil microbial diversity, you
- Know, out competing fusarium is the only
potential solution that I see
that there is other thanjust dumping the soil.
Um, you know, we, we'vetalked about fusarium.
I've had fusariumspecialists on this, on the,
on the, um, program.
And, and usually their answeris like, throw the soil away.

(01:06:44):
And I get that. Um, but, um,
but it's interesting torealize that as a preventative,
since fusarium iss everywhere,
it's not like it's notgonna be in your soil.
Um, just make sure you keepon, you know, adding microbes,
incubating like microbes,adding indigenous microbes
and fusarium will neverget a good foothold.

(01:07:05):
- Yeah. I mean, youknow, never is a strong
word, but I think Yeah, fair enough.
Fair enough. differently from, you know,
adding all the microbes
and really intentionallyapplying, you know, diverse forms
of microbes, whetherthey're from, you know,
your wildcrafting orinput somebody could buy.
I think the other thing is, you know,
soil health practicesreally is where a lot
of this soil microbial diversitypreservation can start.
Um, so those things like the prebiotics

(01:07:27):
and the organic inputs
and companion planting, uh,crop rotation, no-till, uh,
soil health, I think maybeeven I would put higher on the
list than, uh, microbialaccessible carbon from the,
the previous question
, but they're, they'rerelated, right? Yeah. Yeah.
- Yeah. Alright, cool.
So the last topic I wantto hit, uh, during here,
during the set two hereis, um, you know, so,
so far this, uh,

(01:07:48):
this set we've been talkingabout the things that we can do
to make the living environmentfor the microbe life
and in the rhizosphere as diverse
and beneficial as possible.
And, and why that's kindof everything, right?
It, it, we keep on coming backto the same answer and it's
because the answer is,is kind of the only thing

(01:08:10):
that we need to be doingas regenerative farmers is,
is adding, um, adding diversityinto the soil and then,
and let nature do the rest.
So, so that's great.
Um, I also am very attractedto the idea that the plant
is also, um, trying tohelp itself as well by,
by putting out, you know, exudates that,

(01:08:31):
that encourage particularmicrobes or, or, um,
or different residents in therhizosphere where they're kind
of curating, uh, who theyare attracting to them.
And I've heard you talk
before about, um, recruitment that,
that cannabis plants willrecruit bacteria that,
that they find beneficial.

(01:08:53):
And, and I'm unfamiliarwith this idea, but it,
but just the idea of it is fascinating.
So, so I, I don't know theright question to ask you on it,
so I'm just gonna kind of hand you the mic
and say, will you tell us about
how cannabis plants recruitbeneficial bacteria itself,
kinda like intentionally?
- Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
Um, I think, you know,there's a lot of, uh,

(01:09:16):
literature from the past five or six years
that show photo sensitivephoto period sensitive plants
or plants that, you know, havemajor changes in development,
um, also changed theirroot exited profiles.
So I think it was first, you know,
learned about in a arabidopsiswild, wild mustard model, um,
a a plant that has a rosettestage and then it bolts
and then it makes flowers,and those flowers make seeds.

(01:09:36):
Um, at each one of those stages,uh, it was seen that the,
the root exited profiles change.
Um, you know, the early growth
and development, therewas just a ton of sugar.
And later in the, uh, the flowering
and maturation, there was alot of, you know, organic acids
and things that are, uh, canbe harsh to certain microbes,
whereas sugar is like areally broad food source.
So the kind of thinking fromthe authors of that paper were,

(01:09:59):
um, and I'll get to cannabis too,
I promise wereabout, about, um, you know,
the developmental needs of theplant are changing, you know,
more nitrogen in thebeginning, more phosphorus
and potassium later.
And, you know, thosemicronutrients trickled throughout.
Um, and we know that the microbes help
plants uptake these things.
So, you know, let's wonderif the plant is actually,

(01:10:19):
I'm gonna use the term, uh,intentionally, uh, signaling
for different things as it goes on
through growth and development.
So, I mean, being a cannabisenthusiast, seeing that study,
I was like, wow, you know,
what's the most popularphoto sensitive photo period
sensitive plant that we use,
you know, happened cannabis, right?
Mm-Hmm. .Um, uh, so it was, I,
I'm not sure if root exitedwork has been done, um,

(01:10:41):
but we've done some work on the, um,
the vegetative versus the transition.
So, you know, maybe a coupleweeks after flour onset
after the solstice and thedays get short in an outdoor
system, um, as well asthe harvest, uh, you know,
functional microbiome of cannabis.
And we see that, um, regardless of

(01:11:01):
the, you know, specificspecies of cannabis, uh,
or strain, uh, whether it's hemp
or cannabis 0.3%, THC producers
or higher, um, the same functions,
or at least the same bacterialgenera are occurring in,
in a many different, uh,types of soil environments.
Um, we're using like theUSDA climatic zones for that,

(01:11:23):
but basically, um, cannabisbeing as, as nutritionally, uh,
needy comparedto some other plants.
Um, you know, we, we see, uh,really strong associations
with the bacteria, um,based on development.
So when we use the term likerecruit, it's, it's kind
of like the, um, the cannabis plant is

(01:11:45):
sending these signals into the rhizosphere
to likely get some typeof RSO spheric function
by the bacterial or fungal
or just anybody in the soil microbiome.
Um, and these needs are prettystandard from, you know,
the genus or the, the, thecannabis sativa plants, uh,
whether they, they are classifiedas hamper marijuana, uh,
you know, depending on the, the amount

(01:12:06):
of metabolite it produces, right?
Um, all that to say isplants really want microbes.
Um, and if we can kindof provide microbes, uh,
that the plant can't searchfor in indoor systems, um,
or in really, you know,low alpha diversity,
10 year monoculture corn fieldsoils where there's lots,
there's like five different types

(01:12:26):
of microbes I'm exaggerating,um, then we can kind
of benefit the plant, uh, in a way
that it would in its naturalenvironment in the wild type
relatives and the progenitors might have,
you know, kind of evolved to do
- So.
It sounds like, um, if I'munderstanding you correctly,
the main point is that overthe lifecycle of the plant,

(01:12:49):
the plants, uh, the, the, the dominant
bacterias in the rhizosphere changes,
and we know the mechanism, or,
or at least we're prettysure that the mechanism
of why it changes is
because the plant wantsdifferent types of bacteria.
And so it's putting, theplant is putting out different
types of exudates to encouragedifferent types of bacteria.

(01:13:09):
And so, um, the bestthing that we can do is
to, um, you know, a,let the plant do its job
and then b, do our partby, um, offering, um,
varieties of other, um, nutritions and,
and probiotic bacterias

(01:13:31):
and such that, thatthe plant can't produce
and it needs to get its environment.
So that between the partnership between us
and the plant, the roots havejust got everything it could
possibly desire toexpress itself most fully.
- Yes, that is a perfectdistillation. Thank you.
And I think, um, you know,most importantly the, uh, I'm,
I'm gonna sound like a broken

(01:13:51):
record, but soil health, right?
Yeah. If the soil healthis, is maintained,
then we are gonna assume,
and, you know, we've proven,
like the science has proventhere's lots of alpha diversity,
microbial diversity ina very healthy soil.
Um, so whether or not themicrobe that's present
during the vegetative growth period, uh,
of your cannabis plant'slifecycle is recruited

(01:14:11):
by the plant, um, duringthat time, if you maintain
that soil health, it's likelythere will still be those
microbes in low enough cell numbers.
And then when the plantchanges its root exudation
compounds, presumably toattract microbes to, uh,
help it meet its nutritionalneeds based on development, um,
then, you know, soil healthmaintains microbial diversity.

(01:14:33):
Those bugs are hanging aroundwhen your plant is flowering
and, and in need of thosetypes of, uh, functions.
- Hell yeah. That'sactually really exciting.
, I like that summary a lot.
It's like, uh, it's, it'svery rare in, uh, discussing,
uh, soil health and,
and, you know, soilmaximalism, if you will,

(01:14:54):
to actually have, uh,that clear of a recipe for
what we need to do this season.
Thank God, . So, yeah,right, right on.
Well, good. Well, well,thank you for that, Michael.
Let's go ahead and takeour second, uh, commercial,
uh, and be right back.
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(01:19:33):
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(01:19:53):
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(01:20:14):
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(01:20:34):
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(01:20:57):
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(01:21:18):
Dyna Myco Endo Michalinoculate. Welcome back.
I am your host Shang Los,
So here we are at the big finish.
You know, during the first set,
we talked all about biostimulants
and plant growth regulators
and what we wanted to doas regenerative cultivators

(01:21:38):
to make sure that we have the healthiest,
most biodiverse soil sothe plant can do its job
of growing in a healthyway that resists pests
and gives us awesome yields and terpenes.
During the second set,
we talked a bit moreabout the care intending
of micro life specifically, and, and,
and not only how we can add, uh, microbes

(01:22:01):
and biodiversity like we weretalking in the first set,
but also how we can help them thrive
and keep them well fed with, uh, carbon.
And here on the third set, um,we're just gonna hit on, um,
two more kind of miscellaneous,uh, biodiversity topics, um,
that didn't fit in the other two sections,
but I think are really important

(01:22:21):
and things that we have talked about, uh,
prior on the conver onthe, on the program.
So the first of the two is,uh, choosing companion plants
to encourage biodiversity.
So Michael, we've talkedquite a bit today about, uh,
plant exudates
and how plants push out theex exudates from the root
structure, um, uh, and, and,

(01:22:42):
and attract different,um, um, microbial life
and life forms in the rhizosphere,um, that, that it wants
to use as, as, uh, different,you know, flavors of tools.
And, and, and I understandthat like the plants
that are planted near our cannabis plants
can influence the rhizosphereof our cannabis plant

(01:23:05):
because it is also callingforth different types
of nutrition and mycelium, um, to its, uh,
root systems as well.
And, um, I understand,um, you know, partly
what you study is, is, um,how these systems may interact
and, and how to choosecompanion plants that will

(01:23:29):
be a good neighbor forwhatever the target plant that,
that we're looking to grow in.
In our case, we're talking about cannabis.
And so will you kind of,um, talk us through how
to think about choosingour companion plants and,
and in order to encourage the,
the most biodiversity in our soil?

(01:23:50):
- Yeah, absolutely. And I think the reason
that this isn't more, youknow, widespread or adapted
or adopted rather is, is
because of the, um, thescalability of this.
But I, I would love to see it, you know,
on hundreds of acres.
I think, um, two really coolexamples that were new to me
for kind of companion plantingfor cannabis would be, um,
I had some friends do the three sisters,
but replace the corn with the, um,

(01:24:13):
the cannabis plant as opposed to corn.
Um, and for those who don'tknow, the three sisters is corn,
beans and squash.
The corn serves as a trellisfor the beans to grow up.
Um, the beans have a nitrogenfixing symbiotic bacterium
called rhizobium that live in their roots,
and that nitrogen can getleached outta their roots
and be available for boththe corn and the squash.

(01:24:33):
And then the squash withtheir large leaves at the base
of the plant, they provideshade, so soil stays kind
of cooler temperatures anddoesn't get baked from the sun.
Um, so in this case, uh, theyreplaced the corn with the,
the hemp plants and thecannabis plants to serve as
that trellis for the,the beans to climb up.
Um, and both, you know, the squash
and the, excuse me, the hemp was able

(01:24:56):
to benefit from the beansbeing present due to
that rhizobium bacterium being there.
Um, and also, you know,certain soil temperatures,
if they get too hot, thatcan actually be detrimental
to microbial, um, populations.
So having that cooling effectfrom the squash leaves, uh,
depending on your growingenvironment, Colorado,
we have 320 days ofdirect sunshine

(01:25:16):
that can help cool it down, um,
to keep those soiltemperatures, uh, happy for lots
of different things to, tokeep growing rather than just,
uh, you know, the ones thatare tolerant to warm soil
- Before you move past another.
Hold on. Before you move pastthe three sisters, I have got
to ask, are you serious?
We want to have beans climbingup our cannabis plants.

(01:25:37):
Like, that sounds awful.Like, does that work?
Do they, I mean, I imagine
that the bean plants get allinto the flowers and then,
and how does that work?
- I think it might requirea little bit more, um, uh,
maintenance from the cultivator than,
than most people can doin a production system.
Um, but yeah, so theywould kind of climb up and,
and on the fan leaves andthings along those lines, um,

(01:26:01):
- Do the- Bean bush bean are also very, the
- Beans stay closer to the stalk.
'cause like normally theflowers are, are, you know, kind
of far away from the stalk.
So, so are the, are the beansperha perhaps gonna just like,
grow up the center of the plant
and not grow out to the flowers?
Or will the, would the beanseventually grow out the
branch to the flowers?

(01:26:22):
- The ones I, the ones I sawin the system were, were more
so like the, the tips of the bean vines
or, you know, yeah, were kind
of hanging out in the empty space
between fan leaves in themiddle parts of the plant.
They didn't, might quitemake it up to that top cola.
Um, and, you know, this isa one one example, right?
So, um, another approach to this though,
'cause I do hear what you'resaying with, you know,
beans could effectively actlike a, a bind, weeded, um,

(01:26:45):
and pull plants down like that.
So I think, um, a bush bean
or a different type of legume,
like a cow p might be a bettertype of nitrogen fixer to get
that, you know, diverse root exed profile,
diverse microbiome from the root exodus.
Um, and the nitrogen componenttoo from the legume plants.
- And so those differenttype, those bush bean.
And, and the reasonwhy those are better is

(01:27:05):
because you would plant those at the foot
of the cannabis plant.
And so their rhizosphere iscould talk to each other,
but the plant is not a climbing bean.
And so you'll just have likebean shrubbery at the
bottom of your cannabisplant, which is fine.
Um, it just won't climb the plant.
Is that where, where that goes?
- Yes, absolutely. And so like

(01:27:26):
that RSO sphere becomesrepresentative of at least,
you know, two to threedifferent types of plant species
with your, what yourvining squash, you know,
your fruits should be okay.
'cause there'll be far awayfrom the rest of the beans
that are kind of pushing at the base.
Um, but if you have all those roots kind
of in the same root ball, as long
as there's adequate nutrition
and organic material, um, thatwill be like a very healthy,
diverse microbiome, uh, as a factor

(01:27:46):
of just having three different hosts.
- Yeah, I like that a lot. And,um, we've talked on the show
before too, that peoplewho, uh, who grow in berms
that are heavy built up with, uh, compost
and, you know, grass clippings and,
and other agriculturalclippings, um, it's very popular
to grow potatoes in that too.
So, you know, you've gotyour potatoes and your beans
and your squash kind oftrailing off down the,

(01:28:08):
down the line of plants.
Um, I've, I've always loved the idea of,
of growing food crops with the cannabis so
that you can feed yourselfas well as, you know, smoke
and save your soul, if you will.
- Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.- Um, okay.
So now that I've pushed youon that , what other,
what other strategies
or plans do you have in mindfor, um, uh, creating a a, um,

(01:28:31):
diverse, uh, rhizosphere?
- Well, this was somethingthat was kind of, um,
new to me that I read about.
I didn't get to see thisone in, in in action,
but it was a, a farm thathad been co planting, um,
um, a plant with a mushroom.
So they were kind ofusing myceliated, uh, beds
of a wine cap mushroomto get, um, both harvest
of wine cap fungi, ediblemushrooms at the base of the soil

(01:28:54):
and the, uh, the hempwas able to grow, um,
and flour at the top.
So it was kind of getting,um, both, you know, that
fungal microbiome benefit,uh, as well as the,
the plant roots there too.
So not directly, you know, plant
to plant signaling like we're seeing
with like the threesisters we just discussed.
Um, but something along thelines of, you know, trying

(01:29:15):
to have, uh, more bangfor your buck in terms
of square footage for harvestingand things like that. Um,
- And the wine cap mushroom is, uh, one
of my favorite eating mushrooms.
They're absolutely delicious.
I, I tried to do that in myindoor and it didn't work out
because the, the humidityfor mushrooms seems
to be a little higher, um, than we want it
to be in an indoor setting.

(01:29:36):
It seems to work welloutdoors, um, so long
as you've got good plant coverage
because, uh, normally we want our plants
in direct sunlight, right?
Right. But the mushrooms don't wanna
be in the direct sunlight.
So you gotta make surethat you're growing plants
that are gonna be big enoughto, um, create that shadow
underneath that allows the,the wine caps to exist.

(01:29:57):
- Yeah. Maintain that humid microclimate
underneath the plant canopy
that is super ideal for mushrooms,
- Ands.
Oh, and the squash will help with that
too, that you're talking about.
- Yeah, - Absolutely. Those,those big leads. Yeah.
Alright. Um, do you haveany more on that before, uh,
before I move on?
- Uh, I think just companionplanting is really,
really excellent.
And I think there is a,um, you know, go back

(01:30:20):
to the literature and,and look out, you know,
if you have deer eating your,
your hemp marigolds can be
deterrents for deer, right?
I think there's a different,
different plant for a different need.
Um, and just always goingback to the more diverse roots
and host in the, in thesoil would, you know,
increase your soil health andmicrobial diversity there.
- So, so I actually wasplanning on doing, um, big pots

(01:30:40):
of marigolds, uh, next to the plants
for the first time this year, um,
because we do have a lot of deer pressure
and luckily I got some, um,some deer fencing this year,
so hopefully that'll help too.
But, um, is it, is it aseffective that if the, um,
the marigolds are, are notin the pot with the candles
or in the ground next toit, but like, are beside it

(01:31:02):
that the smell of the marigolds is enough
to keep the deer off?
Or will the deer just comeover and browse the weeded and,
and just ignore the marigold?
- I'll be fully honest withyou, uh, when I, when I tried
to use marigolds as a, adeterrent crop in, in Maryland, I,
I watched a deer chewone down before .
Uh, so, you know, that's kinda like your

(01:31:22):
- Mileage may vary ,- Right?
Yeah. You know, like, uh,kind of like different,
different strains of cannabismight have different terpenoid
or cannabinoid profiles,different species of marigolds,
you know, they have themulticolored ones have different,
uh, type of phytochemical profiles
or, you know, thosevolatile organic compounds
that smell icky to deer.
Um, um, so I, I don't know avariety off the top of my head,

(01:31:43):
but I imagine that, um, you know,
it's very species specific.
- Right on. Well, thank you.I, I appreciate your, uh,
your honesty in that and you know,
if we're really gonna go for it.
Um, you know,
these bio regions havegot different deer, right?
So different deer could be, um, accustomed
to browsing differenttypes of plants, whereas,
whereas Mar Maryland deerdon't like, uh, marigolds, but,

(01:32:05):
or, or no, do like Mari or they did Yeah.
- , they do- Like marigolds and,
and maybe, you know, my westcoast deer, um, are more, um,
snooty and they don'twant marigolds, you know?
Right. Or somethinglike that. So. Alright.
Um, but before we leave thecompanion planning topic,
I just wanted to ask, arethere any, um, plants that are,
um, obviously, um, um, uh,poor neighbors, um, the,

(01:32:28):
the, the name for it is, isescaping me at the moment, but,
but there's, there are often plants
that you don't wannaplant near other plants
because they, they, they will make,
they might poison each other or, or, or,
or be toxic to the other person's
or the other plant's rhizosphere.
Are you aware of any of those?
- Yeah, there is one that'sjumping off the top of my head,
although I know there's, uh,you know, a lot of examples,

(01:32:50):
um, uh, black walnut, uh,trees for example, you know,
not specifically related
or cultivated for a,
a regular harvest like we're talking about
with cannabis or vegetables.
Um, but those, those guys, uh,have a, a brute exit it, um,
that is under the nature of allelopathy.
Uh, so they are actually able
to shoot a compound into the soil
that makes it pretty uninhospitable for anything

(01:33:12):
but it's offspring to grow.
Um, and to counter that,there's also plants,
I think certain treesas well that, you know,
don't want its own offspringto, to compete with the,
you know, the mom plant,uh, for the resources there.
So they'll, they'll sendsignals into the soil
that make it inhospitable forthe plants of the same species
to grow, um, to try to, uh, you know,

(01:33:33):
preserve its own nutrientsthat might be in the soil.
- Right on. That's,that's, that's good to say.
And, and I'm gonna throw in my two,
even though some peoplelike these, um, you know,
I always make sure that any,any plants that I consider
for a companion plant, um,does not give off floating
seeds like dandelions.
I personally really love, uh,pink dandelions and I, and I,

(01:33:55):
and I encourage them in my yard actually
'cause they look really trippy.
Um, and so, but, but
before they go to seed, um, you know,
I've got a different seed cropat a different property, but,
but like, I have to makesure, you know, I grab those
because I don't want all thoselike little fuzzy puff balls
in my resonance flowers.
Right? Right. That isdefinitely a party fowl.

(01:34:16):
And so any plant that givesoff, um, you know, uh, uh, uh,
fluffy seeds that are goingto be wind, uh, distributed,
you wanna be careful of those.
And then even though a lot ofpeople like, uh, red clover,
I personally cautionpeople from the red clover
because the red flower shoots up.
And if you don't grow monster plants,

(01:34:37):
if you're growing plants thatare only, you know, three feet
and not 10 feet, uh, three feet,
the clover could totally grow up into
and start interacting with your resin.
And, and we don't want that either.
So the last questionhere is, is one that, uh,
I talk about sometimes on,um, on shaping fire, but,
but mostly it, the, the discussion has,

(01:35:00):
has happened on the ShapingFire YouTube channel where, um,
I posted a, a video witha microbiologist that had,
was a, a specialist in inplant microbe interaction,
talking about how, um,the 24 hour light strategy
is, is bad for cannabis.

(01:35:21):
And, and I fully believethis to be the case
because, um, you know, uh,uh, photo synthetic plants
have a, have, uh, evolvedprocesses that happen
during the dark cycle.
So, so if the plant isnaturally growing outdoors,
it gets a day cycle,it gets a night cycle.

(01:35:42):
During the night cycle, thephotosynthesizing, um, stops
and other processes happen.
And that's how you keep astrong rambunctious plant.
But we know fromexperiments, indoor plants,
when you're supplementing with light
that if you grow the plantat 24 hours, um, it's,

(01:36:02):
it's like giving the plant cocaine
or something like where theplants just go, go, go, go.
A constantly photosynthesize,
constantly process these sugars,go rah rah and, and like,
and so it will, it willmake your, your, your,
your seed germinate faster.
It will make the young plant move faster.
It will bring it into bebecoming, you know, a ready

(01:36:23):
to flower, teenage plant faster.
And then in the flowering,some people find
that they reach maturityat the flour faster
to such a degree that theycan, you know, knock a week off
of flowering sometimes.
And they're all like, listen,if, if, if, if, if I do that
with every cycle my whole year,
I can actually squeezein another cycle a year.

(01:36:43):
And that's real money. And so
because of that, the case fora 24 hour light cycle is made.
And I take every opportunityI can to try to teach
that the, the dark cycle isnecessary for plant health.
And, um, you Michael, you know,you're, you're the frontline
of this debate as a microbiologist,you know, these cycles

(01:37:06):
intimately and,
and you know, whathappens in the, you know,
what happens in the dark .
And so, so I'm gonna kind ofthrow myself up, um, hopefully,
um, hopefully I'm not wrong in your eyes,
but, um, I'd like to hearyou speak to this idea
of the 24 hour light strategy and, um,
and how that, that mightimpact, uh, the plant.

(01:37:29):
- Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, you know,
that's gotta be one of the most, uh,
nutritionally expensive types
of cultivation practices I would think,
um, that could be done.
Uh, I, I wonder what types of,uh, you know, nutrient usage,
uh, rates people are goingthrough if they're, uh,
doing this practice with24 hour light cycles.

(01:37:49):
Um, 'cause I wouldimagine that with 24 hours
of daylight without anytypes of resting period, um,
that the plant is gonna be constantly, uh,
requiring extremely highconcentrations of nitrogen,
phosphorus, and potassium, um,
essential processes likethe kreb cycle happen,
uh, at nighttime.
Um, plants also do these,um, things called like gata

(01:38:10):
where there might be airbubbles in the plant vascular
tissue, which can be detrimental.
Um, but at nighttimethey can push those out.
Um, you know, they also close their stem
and, uh, don't evaporate the water out
of their bodies as as quickly.
So I think primarily the, um, the benefit
to get another cycle mightbe missed by the amount

(01:38:32):
of nutrients somebodymight need from trying
to maintain the nutritionalneeds of the cannabis plant, uh,
by blasting them with 24hours of light, right?
If you're gonna be, um, you know,
basically giving your plants cocaine
and keeping them at highenergy, high growth,
optimal fast growth rates
and developments, there's gonna be a lot
of energy spent for that.
Um, and in order for them, forthem to kind of account for

(01:38:53):
that deficit, there needs to be tons
and tons of availablenutrient inputs there.
Um, and I, I don't know thatone other cycle might be, uh,
beneficial enough to, to, to have
to add that much more verigation
- In, in my experience, the people
who are defending the24 hour light cycle are,
are usually people thatare using, you know,
two part bottled salt fertilizers,

(01:39:14):
and so they're kind of likeforce feeding the plants, uh,
nutrition anyway.
And, uh, you know, it's,it's pretty rare to find a,
you know, a bottled nutrients grower
who isn't overfeeding anyway,
because if some is good, more is better.
Right? Right. And so,
and so that, that's actually the answer
that I get online whendiscussing this with, with these,

(01:39:35):
these cultivators are at that all, well,
if it just makes the plantmore hungry for more nutrition,
I'll just pour more in.
And I'm like, ah, that'snot really how it works.
Um, but, um, for folks whoaren't familiar with it,
you mentioned that the Krebs cycle
happens in the dark period.
Will you, will you explain what that is?
- Well, the, um, theplant starts to respire

(01:39:56):
so it stops using the light, um,
or the photons from thesunlight or your LEDs
or any types of lightingyou have as, um, kind
of like the building blocks to metabolism.
Um, and it starts to respirbasically it's getting its
energy from off-gassing, uh, things
that might be in the there as opposed
to using the light energy to, um, kind
of make more chloroplast and,and things along those lines.

(01:40:19):
- So when I'm, when I'm talkingabout, uh, this with folks
who, who are very, very, um,
into the 24 hour light strategy,um, they come back to me
and they're like, they'relike, well, you're telling me I
can't do this, but I do thisall the time and I get plants
and I smoke 'em, and Iget high and it's great.
And, and, and to the best ofmy scientific knowledge, I say

(01:40:41):
to 'em, I say, yeah, butyou're, you're getting a plant
that isn't the best plantyou could have grown.
Um, if you, if you need fast, cheap
styrofoam tasting flourquickly, okay, that,
that might be an appropriatestrategy to consider.
But since most of us arelooking for a thriving plant,

(01:41:05):
which, um, you know, also provides
high quality terpenesthat just like engage us
and give us a better high
and also creates pestresistance, it seems to me
that the 24 hour lifecycle will slowly
but surely degrade acannabis plant throughout its

(01:41:25):
entire lifecycle.
What, what are your thoughts about that?
Like, is the, is the, is the, is the life
of the cannabis plant so short where over
where, over that lifecycle?
It doesn't matter if we starve the soil.
- I, I kind of am thinking thatI, it does matter, you know,
uh, the cannabis plantlifecycle is a lot longer to,

(01:41:46):
to maturation and harvest than a lot
of other different crops that are kind
of following the school of thought.
And I think that, um, you know,speculatively, there's a lot
of, uh, things thathappen that are beneficial
to the plant vascular systemduring the rest period.
Um, pushing those air bubblesout, closing those ada, uh,
and things along those lines that

(01:42:06):
I would imagine play arole in the, the synthesis
of cannabinoids, terpenoids,
and other secondary metabolites.
Um, so I think, yeah,it would be interesting
to do a side-by-side withthe same kind of cultivar or,
or strain of, of cannabis, uh, you know,
in a 24 hour cycle versus aan 18 six followed by a 1212.
Um, and then the other thingthat I wanted to mention, uh,

(01:42:28):
you were talking aboutkind of the indoor growers
and having those, you know, two
to one salts readily available
and probably slightly over applied.
Um, it, it would be coolto, to get to a point to
where we can kind ofstart to supplement, uh,
those conventional salt based fertilizers
with more organic things.
Um, and maybe even get to the point, uh,
and this is from Dr. JamesWhite, the Oph Fiji, uh,

(01:42:48):
scientist, um, using thosesalts that are easily slurped up
and, and, you know, immediatelyused in, in building blocks
of the plant body, um, kind of
as like corrective uh, treatments.
And you notice thedeficiency, you apply a salt,
and then you start to kind ofbalance both your, your salt
and your organic base of nutrition inputs.
Not only will that benefit the plant, um,

(01:43:09):
but also same thing with the microbes.
Um, there's been studies showingthe same exact, you know,
strain of, of cannabis growingin living soil versus growing
in, uh, hydroponics with biologicals.
And the terpene and cannabinoidprofiles are, you know,
statistically different from one another.
And I think a lot of that hasto do with, uh, the terroir
or the terroir of,of the cannabis plant. Yeah.

(01:43:31):
- Yeah. The idea ofsupplementing with, uh, with, um,
salt on its face I'm prejudice against,
but as a citizen scientist, I want
to learn more, you know what I mean?
- So Yeah, I understand.Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- Yeah. So anyway, well,well thank you for, for, uh,
diving into that topic for me.
Um, it, it, it, it'sclearly something that I,
I am passionate about

(01:43:52):
and I get argued with sometimes .
And so anytime I, you know,
when I get a microbiologistlike you willing to talk
to me about it, I always bang
that drum. So thank you, .
- Yeah, absolutely. I mean,
I guess more on the microbeside, I think just like the,
the soil temperatures do cool
or the roots temp, the root zone rises
for temperatures willalso cool in the dark.
So kind of factoringin the microbiome, um,

(01:44:14):
that's just allowing moreenvironmental changes
to maintain different diversity
and things like that, um,with the, the darkness period,
because, you know, a grow roomwill cool off 10 degrees when
the lights are off and things like that.
- Yeah, right on. Yeah. AndI'm sure there's different
cycles that need a coolertemperature to happen.
- Yeah. But I'm interested in, in kind
of learning more about theeffects, uh, in the microbiome,
you know, with this 24hour versus getting

(01:44:35):
that rest period that plants,
you know, were evolved to have.
- Yeah. So. Awesome. Well,Michael, we are here at the end.
Um, thank you so much forsharing your expertise
and experience and, andtime and good cheer with us.
Um, uh, I've really enjoyed our discussion
and, um, you know, it, it, II, I didn't expect, uh, uh,
so much, so many times for us to come back

(01:44:55):
to the answer beingdiverse microbe ts, but,
but really, you know, the,
the more I get into regenerative growing
and really, uh, growing ina way that's, uh, responds
to nature, the more I realized that, um,
the farmer's only job is to create, um,

(01:45:16):
rich nutri nutritive,biologically diverse soil.
And, and so you're alwaysgonna come back to tea.
So, so thank you very much for being here
and for, for, you know,sharing what you know.
- Absolutely. Thank you somuch for having me, Shang. Go.
It, uh, it was a great conversation
and I'm really grateful tobe able to kind of just,
you know, talk about thisstuff with somebody else.
- Excellent. Yeah, me too. It's, it's nice

(01:45:37):
to find another narrative for this
stuff, so thank you. Totally.
- Yeah,- Right on.
So, um, if you want toreach out to, uh, Michael
or no more what's, he'smore of what he's up to,
there are two places to do that.
Um, you can follow Michael Delegue,
that's D-I-L-E-G-G-E onLinkedIn, where he posts
what he's up to in his latest research.

(01:45:58):
And also, um, uh, the companywhere he is a director
of microbiology is Implo Biosciences,
and you can find out whatthey're up to at implo
I-M-P-E-L-L-O bio.com.
You can find more episodesof the Shaping Fire Podcast
and subscribe to the show@shapingfire.com

(01:46:18):
and wherever you get your podcasts.
If you enjoyed the show, we'dreally appreciate it if you
would leave a positivereview of the podcast.
Wherever you download yourview will help others find the
show so they can enjoy it too.
On the Shaping Fire website,you can also subscribe
to the newsletter for insightsinto the latest cannabis news
exclusive videos and giveawayson the Shaping Fire website.

(01:46:39):
You also find transcriptsof today's podcast as well.
Be sure to follow on InstagramFor all original content not
found on the podcastthat's at Shaping Fire
and at shang los on Instagram, be sure
to check out the ShapingFire YouTube channel
for exclusive interviews, farmtours, and cannabis lectures.
Does your company wannareach our national audience
of cannabis enthusiasts?

(01:47:00):
Email hotspot@shapingfire.comto find out how.
Thanks for listening to Shaping Fire.
I've been your host, Shang Los.

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