EP122 Growing Cannabis for Hashmaking with guest Conner Terpwizard

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Since the beginning, Shaping Fire has been about
self sufficiency.
Cannabis enthusiasts
should not need the stores.
They should just be a fun option.
Sure, normalization of cannabis is helpful for staying
out of jail for now, but it isn't
always helpful in buying quality cannabis and cannabis
preparations in the licensed market.

(00:29):
Especially if you are a patient or a
connoisseur.
Especially if it is hash.
Often, the mix of cannabis varieties and products
in the market tend to be more about
the convenience of the mega cannabis companies than
the actual desires of consumers.
While some states have excellent Hash rosin in
the legal market,

(00:49):
Hash rosin is one of the product areas
where the small batch, unlicensed
Hash Maker reigns supreme.
If you can grow and squish, you are
well on your way to creating something on
par or better than the licensed market in
most states.
And damn, Hash rosin ain't cheap.
Today's episode is offered to encourage you to

(01:10):
take the leap and consider cultivating
your own flower to supply your own hash.
Sure, buy from the licensed system when you
want, but never be beholden to it.
Paying taxes on your hash ain't natural.
If you want to learn about cannabis health,
cultivation, and technique efficiently and with good cheer,
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(01:32):
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at Shango Los.
You are listening to Shaping Fire and I
am your host, Shango Los. Welcome to episode
122.
My guest today is Connor Terp Wizard.

(02:16):
Connor, more commonly known as Terp Wizard, has
been washing hash for a decade and cultivating
even longer.
His hash and his specialty genetics for making
hash have won awards across the country and
in Spain.
Connoisseurs flock to his genetics for the taste
and performance
hash makers are looking for.
We actually gave away a bunch of Turp

(02:36):
Wizard seeds on Shaping Fire about six months
ago. Great stuff.
Connor has a culinary background and studied at
Augusta Estoffier,
but then found himself making edibles and in
no time was cultivating flower and making your
hash instead of your dinner.
Today we will learn about cultivating flowers specifically
for making hash.

(02:57):
During the first set we will discuss the
attributes of excellent hash and the flowers that
make it. In the second set, we will
focus on cultivation tips, garden design, and harvest
timing. And we wrap up talking about yield
calculations,
dried flower hash versus fresh frozen, and handling
plants post harvest.
While prepping for this episode,

(03:17):
Connor repeated something that passion for hashing
once said on Hashish Inn.
It's better to have a little bit of
great hash than a whole lot of okay
hash.
Welcome to Shaping Fire, Connor.
Thanks for having me, Shango. It's,
been it was really cool to get asked
to be on here. I've been listening to
your show for years and have,

(03:39):
gained a lot of knowledge from these episodes.
So I'm I'm stoked to be here. Yeah.
Thank you very much. It was it made
me very happy when you said that it
was on your bucket list to be on
the show when I invited you because,
I have a lot of respect for you
and your work and, honestly, you as a
person too. You know, we run-in some of
the same scenes and,
and, and you're you're a guy that, you

(03:59):
know, folks universally like because of your nature.
So thanks for joining us today on Shaping
Fire,
and let's dive right into it, man. You
know,
our goal here is to is to help
everybody
make better hash. Right? But let's let's get
us all on the same page on what
we mean by good hash.
What would you say are the hash attributes
commonly sought in the market right now by

(04:21):
people who love hash?
I think
from a consumer side and a grower or
processor side, those can be two different things.
From the grower and processor side, we obviously
want
it to be viable in some nature. So

(04:42):
depending on the environment you're growing in between
indoors where there's a lot of extra costs
with environmental control and and lighting and everything
that comes with that versus maybe growing under
the sun with little to no power bill,
that viability can change.
So
for, the cultivation and processing

(05:04):
side, it would be
focusing on, is it
something
that
washes well, something that works for my growing
style,
something that
is
flavorful,
a great expression,
great representation of the parents or whatever
you hunted or got.

(05:26):
And then,
I think on both sides between the consumer
and the processor and grower, we want it
to, just be have that wow factor or
be enjoyable. So
opening the jar,
you want the consistency
usually to be a wetter.
And

(05:46):
it seems like these days people are really
focused on the color of the Hash two,
so a generally lighter color in the blonde
spectrum.
And then a great nose, very clean
on the nail or however you're deciding
to smoke it.
And then, you know, great taste and effect.

(06:07):
I would say that's kinda like the whole
thing that defines
great hash, you know, summing it up kind
of, and also trying to cover all the
things that I about when
looking for something that's,
great.
So one of the things that I noticed
that you didn't mention is the test results.

(06:27):
And, you know, as a lover of flower
as I am,
you know, we are constantly telling people,
don't focus on the flower test results. Flow
Focus on the terpene
profile because the, you know, the turps and
the esters shape
the high in such a way that that,
you know, just a high THC percentage is

(06:50):
is totally a misnomer.
And
it sounds to me that that, you know,
you as a as a craft,
hash rosin producer,
you mentioned the parts that are key,
color, consistency,
taste, you know, a good expression of the
of the parents, all that good stuff that
makes for quality craft.

(07:11):
Do you find that you are also put
under pressure for the numbers,
you know, when when you are selling into
the market, or are are your
are the people who enjoy your,
hash, do they know better where where they
they know that they're buying based on flavor

(07:31):
and overall
buzz experience
versus a raw number?
I don't think that the
people that I'm working with
are too concerned about that.
Being on the caregiver and medical side, it's
a little different for me. I don't necessarily

(07:51):
see a lot of people
testing.
Unfortunately, the lab that we liked using
over here,
shut down
due to,
some circumstances I'm not aware about.
But I I'm not too aware of people
doing that on the carrier medical side, and
I don't really know how that's perceived
on,

(08:12):
the the side where people are going to
a store, whether that is medical or recreational.
I don't think that those people are necessarily
looking
at numbers to dictate their choice. I think
if you're able to check check out a
jar,
you know, you're basing it off of what
you're getting
visually and,
through your your nose. And if you're lucky

(08:34):
enough when you're getting you get to try
it and then be like, oh, this is
great. I'd love to get a jar. But
I that's not happening at dispensaries these days,
at least anywhere near us. Right on.
You've attended a lot,
more,
hash competitions than I have. When you when
when when you go to these hash competitions,
are are people presenting,

(08:55):
tests for that stuff, or or is is
the is the potency,
you know, an afterthought?
It's from what I've seen, it's just an
honor system, you know, that people will want
you to enter clean stuff, and they just,
you know, when you fill out some
entry forms, they're just, you know, remind me
that please be curious of that or, you

(09:17):
know,
that's as far as they ask for testing
on that. And,
I'm blanking on the second half of the
question. That's right. You you you already answered
it. It sound it sounds like since everybody
is self reporting
their potencies,
it's just not super important. Because if if
it was a key part of the voting,
then then folks,

(09:38):
you know, they wouldn't be self reported.
And, the the impact of this, which I
really like, is we know that,
you know, the the Hash rosin community,
tends to be, you know, an elite group
of connoisseurs,
and they've just moved past the test numbers.
Because if if they're, you know, if they're
if they're getting hash from somebody with an

(09:59):
established name of Making Quality,
they know that when they get the flavor
and the smells and the and the expression
and the color, that that the that the
numbers are are going to be plenty good.
And, and it and it's nice to see
that, you know, evolving
solidly
in in a part of the cannabis scene
because, you know, the scene as a whole

(10:19):
is still trying to learn that flavor is
everything. You know?
Yeah. Well, I I remembered my thought about
the competition side and potency,
I'm on the second part of that. Mhmm.
For
my experience in a lot of these competitions,
they're kind of just like a day or
two, and you have to get through
a fair amount of entries more than most

(10:41):
people would smoke in a day. So potency
really isn't,
considered,
for what is winning because you're going through
such a high volume that you don't know
if what you just felt was from the
last stab you took or several back.
So it when you're scoring things out,
that's not really,

(11:02):
a category
because you don't have the proper time to
really get the effect into it. I think
more than that, there's, like, usually an extra
category or something when you're scoring that's, like,
a wow factor or something that was where
it's, like, a couple points or nothing crazy.
So you're, like, oh, wow. That really cut
through in one way or another.
But, you know, it's it's kinda hard if

(11:23):
you're, you know, having to do 30 dads
in a sitting and you're like, fuck. I
don't know which one I just felt. Yeah.
Talk about being a wreck at the end
of the judging. My goodness. Yeah.
So so for today, you know, the the
the the world of hash is huge. Right?
So I think that it's important for us
to kinda narrow it down to so that
people know what to expect. So,

(11:44):
you know,
the the the, you know, the the the
primary types of hashes that that are around
and available are are Hash rosin,
temple balls, and and probably still BHO places.
And and I am not here to, trash
BHO in any way. Enjoy what you like.
Grow and produce what you like. You'll find
other people that like what you're producing. That's
awesome. Don't hate on what everybody else is

(12:06):
producing.
But today, we're gonna be focusing on Hash
rosin,
because that's what Connor's specialty is, and and
so that's what we're gonna focus on. So,
you know, I I personally love rosin and
temple balls. But again, temple balls are are
not really what we're talking about today. So
so we have love for temple balls and
BHO may makers, but but we're we're we're

(12:28):
we're focusing on rosin today, but but don't
don't think that we're, like, excluding you as
not, not relevant.
So so, Connor,
can a plant that doesn't smoke well as
flower still make excellent hash? Because a lot
of people just think, well, if you if
you wanna make good hash, just take your
best flower that you grow and just make

(12:49):
hash with it. And and I I don't
real while it can be that easy,
I don't think that,
an advanced hash maker is following that plan.
No. Not at all. I've had the,
pleasure of working with some other farmers.
And before they're fully
on board or know what

(13:10):
we're looking for on our end,
they'll, you know, be transitioning from growing for
flower mainly and then wanting to,
offer more, see what their plants can do
on
the,
you know, washing side and and extraction side.
And,
yeah, they'll they'll be like, oh, this flower
looks great. It's covered in trichomes. It's it's

(13:31):
really nice. And then we wash it, and
it just doesn't
perform how we were expecting.
And that, you know,
comes down to maybe going out to their
garden and looking at the plants and trying
to get a feel for how the trichomes
are.
And, yeah, I found too, like, when we
were switching over from primarily
growing for flower versus, you know, washing freezing

(13:53):
and washing everything,
that
some of these plants that you'd probably get
rid of based on
how maybe, like, area or the structure isn't
what you're looking for are actually great for
the extraction side because they offer a lot
more surface area and allow for the
trichomes to be really accessible and for the

(14:13):
the heads,
the glands to fall off very easily.
Great. So we know that it is a
unique process that,
has got its own attributes. So
let's talk about those attributes,
because during the rest of the show, we're
gonna be talking about how to
improve and hit these attributes in a great
way. So,

(14:34):
what are the attributes that you look for
in flower
that makes
excellent hash?
Yeah. If you'd like, I can even go
through kind of our process that starts from,
like, when we pop a seed all the
way to the end and, like, walk people
through kinda
the whole process instead of just focusing on
flour. That sounds really good. Why don't you

(14:55):
walk us through the process? That way people
can really envision it in their brains.
Yeah. So we go through a fair amount
of seeds in a year. And as we're
going through,
because I'm working with a a higher volume,
I'll, you know, pull out the weird ones,
pull out the slower ones, and try to
find very,

(15:16):
vigorous growing plants from the vegetative state.
And as we're working through,
you know, they're getting bigger. And then we're
taking a clone.
And if it's easy to clone, that's another
check on the box. I know sometimes from
seed versus, further down the line the clone,
that could change, but that's a great sign

(15:37):
for us. So that's, like, another thing. I'm
I'm willing to work with trickier plants, but
the easier
and the more healthy the the plant is
from the start, the more likely I'd like
to keep it around, and I think that's
been great for us on the seed production
side.
So after we're kind of pulling these out
of the vegetative state and and starting to,

(15:58):
cull the herd, we'll get them into flower
and start looking at,
the growth traits
in flower usually about halfway through. I don't
wanna pull anything too early. Obviously, I'm I'm
looking for any instability,
anything that's showing intersex traits.
Obviously, pulling males too if we're not trying

(16:19):
to select for something like that.
And then
the later half of flower,
I'll start feeling
the
the lower buds and trying to pinch them
off in the last couple weeks to get
an idea of what I'm experiencing
with my nose,
and then checking,
my finger to see kind of what the
trichomes

(16:40):
are like.
So, generally,
there's kinda like three,
trichome
heads that I'll I'll experience in flower, and
there's some stuff that's kinda like in between.
There's like a very, greasy, almost like a,
a lotion kind of when you when you're
grabbing the flower. You'll see it, like, spread

(17:02):
out on your finger. And if you have
black gloves on, you won't see, like, any,
trichomes.
And those are really great for flower, but
they're they're not
what you wanna be growing for the extraction
side. And then
kind of the middle of the road is,
a trich you'll start seeing the trichomes, and

(17:23):
they'll kinda be somewhere between this lotion y,
and the final would be like sandy. And
these kind of trichomes, you'll, like, squeeze together
and pull your finger,
and it will be,
what we're referring to as stringers. And those
are starting to point in the direction that
this plant would be good for an extraction
process.

(17:44):
And then finally the sandy trichome
where there'd be something like maybe like a
GMO. That's where we've seen a lot of
that kind of sandy trichome. Those are a
little bit harder to find.
And those are super stable.
You know, you'll still maybe get the stringer
thing, but that would be like you touch
it with the the black gloves once again,

(18:04):
and you're seeing a ton of trichomes.
So they're really,
durable and able to stand up, and those
are great
for
ice water extraction as well. And and though
that middle stage where they're you're creating stringers
and the sandy is where I wanna be
for something
that I would keep. So

(18:24):
we'll pull out all the
unfavorable profiles
and kind of, like, lotion y,
looking and and feeling resin.
And then from there, we will
I'm taking a lot of notes so I
so I know later once I get those
through flowered, but then we'll,
jar test
them. So because I'm doing these hunts in

(18:46):
one gallons and trying to only use up
a small footprint
in my garden,
I will
just take a very
small mason jar
and fill it up with like five to
seven grams and freeze that. And I'm removing
any plant material that doesn't have any trichomes
on it.
Usually what I'll do is I'll let let

(19:09):
them sit for twenty four hours and then
come back the next morning
and shake them. And I'm using a,
attachment
to, like, a jigsaw
that kinda looks like a,
a brace
for a snowboard,
and it's made for,

(19:30):
shaking cans.
So this thing is great for attaching and
keeping the consistency
of how the the shake is happening so
that if I was doing it by hand,
there'd be inconsistencies.
And I'm trying to keep everything the same.
So by using that tool,
I knock out one variable,
as long as all the settings on the
tool set the same. And we do it

(19:51):
for about a minute and let it let
it sit for,
maybe like a half hour to an hour.
It doesn't really matter at that point as
long as you let everything settle, and then
we'll observe,
the density of trichome heads. And whichever ones
are looking the best,
that's how we'll decide
what we'd like to run again.
And then from there,

(20:11):
we'll run it again in a larger pot,
get it through flour,
observe it. I usually like to run it
two times after we made the selection just
in case there was something different, if the
round wasn't optimal.
And that's kinda how we've been making
selections over the last couple years. It's really

(20:32):
helped us get through a decent volume and
and find some good stuff.
And if for any reason I got through
that and anyone listening to this has a
question about specifics,
I'm more than happy to go through that
a little bit more and try to help
people work through and make their
selection process more efficient or at least show
them what I'm doing.

(20:54):
When you're putting together such a laborious process,
it's no doubt that the product that comes
out the other end
is
such,
such a premium experience.
It sound you know, if I'm if I'm
following you correctly, you're you're doing a, you
know, multiple selections
in during the first cycle. And the first
cycle is is essentially just plant selection, not

(21:16):
even about making
hash. So you you grow your plants. You
make your selections. You've taken your clones.
Then the winners,
I'm assuming those those clones become mothers,
and,
and you you fill a room with those,
and then it sounds like you grow that
once or twice
just to make sure that,

(21:37):
you know, you're you're you're getting what you
think you're getting.
All of that before you actually even get
to making the hash.
So so this is very much about
making sure that when you get into the
cold room and you're making your hash, that
you already have the highest quality paints to

(21:57):
paint with, if you will.
Yeah. Just to clarify and to go a
little bit deeper into that,
after that initial clone selection from the first
round of seed, we do run them in
and those will go out to people. So
after we've made that first selection and we've
cloned off the original
seed stock, those are now,

(22:17):
at least past far enough to get out,
and then we'll get more
data from people. And that's how we'll we'll
severely
narrow the the herd from there.
So for instance, let's say
we're getting to go through a couple or
maybe a few dozen.
At the end, we'll end up with, you
know, a good run,

(22:38):
would be five.
You know, more than that, we have three
selections at the end of that process that
would really stand out.
And sometimes,
just because
it smells really good doesn't mean it's gonna
translate. So that's why after
that jar test process,
which could also be enhanced by a tool
called the ResinDial,

(22:59):
which,
one of my friends,
Simply Adam, makes.
And,
that you can run if you're doing a
little bit bigger of a jar test, you
can run that through essentially a small bag
set
and then for put those in the freeze
dryer and get solid numbers because I'm just
visually looking to be like, oh, this one
looks the best off of just this first

(23:21):
run,
where that tool, the resin dial,
can give you solid numbers to go off
of. And I just haven't made it there
because the scale of what we're doing is,
doesn't make sense for me at this point.
If we were selecting plants outside from seed
and had much more material to work with,
that would be something I'd wanna incorporate. Mhmm.

(23:43):
So,
let's break your process out a little bit
into some of those attributes that we're looking
for that makes good hash. So,
you you know, at the top, we were
talking about flavor, and and obviously,
most people would put that at the top.
And,
I would assume
that some flavors

(24:03):
that show up in flour
don't translate
as well to a final product of hash.
I mean, I make hash every year, but
I I'm certainly not making hash several times
a year like, you and your team are.
So have you experienced that there are some,
profiles
that hash better than others because some flavor

(24:27):
profiles just get lost in the wash?
Yeah. I think that
in my experience from
my environment, what I've seen,
it's a lot easier for me to find
stuff in, like, the chem family that washes.
It seems like when that is in the
parent lineage,
it's a good sign that that will wash.

(24:48):
It's not always. It doesn't mean it's gonna
be an amazing washer, but it seems like
I've had really good luck when I have
gone down that road
and tried to hunt stuff
that's in, like, the cam or some people
might say that's gassy. That's where we're finding
a lot of washers easily.
And as of late, there's been a lot
of people who have been focusing on fruity

(25:09):
sides, and maybe that's just the filter stuff
that I'm looking for.
But it seems like a lot more profiles
that
maybe five,
six, seven, eight years ago that were harder
to find washers are getting,
to become more common because people have made
it their their, you know, work

(25:29):
their dedication to getting that specifically, like, lemon.
I've it seems like there's been a lot
more,
lemony profiles lately that people have been able
to, you know, select traits to get it
to wash.
I think particularly
in in my experience stuff that's been difficult
to find as of late that I've been
interested in finding is,

(25:51):
stuff maybe in the more
tropical fruit. So, like, specifically pineapple's been a
really hard one for me to pin down,
and then
guava hasn't been the easiest either,
and lime. Those are kind of those have
been very evasive, and I've tried to select
specific stuff
that get me towards that goal,

(26:12):
and it's just been,
very,
fruitless, or they'll end up turning up where
you least expect them. We we have a
plant that's
rounding the bend that will be harvested next
year that sorry, next week
that,
is presenting a pineapple nose, which I didn't
have that in the notes, and the parent

(26:32):
lineage did not
I did not think it would be in
that realm of fruity. So it'll be interesting
if it if once we get it washed
and through that whole process, if it will
remain
pineappley or if that will
will change. But it is fun when that
stuff turns up where you least expect it.
You just wish you didn't have to waste
all that, you know, money or effort to

(26:54):
get there. Yeah. It's a numbers game though,
man. You can't you you gotta you gotta
open up a lot of beans to to
find accidental magic, you know. I also like
I also liked the delightful unintentional pun you
gave there about
not finding the tropical flavors you want and
that search being fruitless.
Oh, that's

(27:15):
top shelf pun right there.
So let's talk about what the flowers look
like. Right? Because,
since you are going to wash them,
they don't really need bag appeal because they
are not going to be going into the
market in bags.
And and yet, there are some key attributes
to how the flower looks that really do

(27:37):
play a role
in hashing. So will you talk a bit
about
flower structure and its importance in in getting
something that dumps?
Yeah. I don't think this is the the
case for everything, but generally,
the stuff that does better
has a more spread out structure. So what

(27:58):
I touched on a little bit earlier was,
like,
that that openness
creates more surface area,
and having a higher coverage of trichomes in
general
will help,
with the
with the extraction side. So we do have
some varieties that would probably be great for
flower if that's what we're doing, you know,

(28:18):
really
putting down a lot of weight,
but maybe not washing the best because they
don't
have that openness to
easily
access the the trichome heads or
yeah.

(28:39):
Right on. You know, it, while
autoflowers certainly,
gather a lot of shade from from folks,
it's one of the interesting attributes of autoflowers
that the flowers are so open.
And,
you know,
in in
learning about autoflowers
and teaching it to parent not parents, patients,

(29:03):
about autoflowers
because they're very easy to grow.
You know, I've I've grown hundreds and hundreds
of autoflowers and and usually at the end
of the season,
we take, everything at the demo farm and
we just run it all together as hash,
because it's very enjoyable that way. And it
startled the team when they when they ran

(29:24):
the first round of autoflowers because they just
d'omped.
And, you know, the hash was, like like,
better than decent too,
but it it shocked everybody because the natural
open flower
of that you get in most auto flowers
just makes those,
trichomes really accessible.

(29:44):
And so, you know, it takes a flower
that many would consider ugly
and and uses it in a way that,
you know, is kind of more appropriate for
its expression.
So another really important thing I think we
should talk about is the trending
lighter color that is very popular in Hash
Rosin right now.
And I must admit, I'm coming at this

(30:05):
with probably a little bit of prejudice because,
I am more attuned towards temple balls and
the Frenchy cannoli kind of style.
And so,
I was brought up believing
that the
the trichomes are ripe when they are starting
to become amber, and I like that that
stoniness buzz and,
it's just how it's always been for me.

(30:28):
And yet the the trending
in hash rosin is it for it to
have more of a a creamy,
you know, yellowish white color sometimes.
And for me when I see that,
I think, oh, these are under ripe ripe
trichomes. These are these are these have missed
their potential by not being allowed to go

(30:48):
farther. And,
and and some hasharos and producers I've talked
to, they will they will tell me that,
well, you know, some some plants are creamier
than others. Some need to get more amber
than others, and it's really something that they
do in response to the plant.
But then there are commercial people that I
know who are making larger volumes, and they're
all like, no. We cut everything early,

(31:10):
because we've got to have that that, you
know, light color in the market.
So,
I'm asking you to kinda educate all of
us because I recognize my prejudice here towards
the towards the temple balls. What do you
think about
the lighter color trend?
Do you think that these plants are being
harvested
unripe and

(31:31):
and the the it might work better, might
taste better, might be a better experience if
they are let to go longer?
Or do you think that people are just
selecting plants that finish,
creamier and with less amber? As somebody who's
choosing plants for this all the time,
I'm guessing that you have, further insight than
I do as somebody who just throws everything

(31:52):
into temple walls.
Yeah. I think it was
a a learning curve for me when,
you know, initially growing for for flower and,
you know, pulling things based off,
amber
percentage or, you know,
what we were looking for with with that
under scopes
versus now, you know, we're looking for a

(32:14):
cloudy stage.
And
indoors and outdoors or under a greenhouse, that's
a little bit different of a process how
we're how we're doing that.
I had forgot to mention earlier that part
of
that second round of selection
is making sure the plant
is,
excuse me, harvestable

(32:35):
in a,
like, fifty five day, fifty six day window
because that's what works for our our indoor
setup and and cycle.
And I believe that by doing that
in the long run, because I'm also making
seeds of these selections,
for sure for indoors, that's not necessarily always

(32:57):
the fact outside because it's not dictated by
you flipping the lights to a different light
cycle.
But as far as, like, what we're looking
at outside,
I'm I'm scoping everything and looking for that
cloudy stage.
And I think,
yeah, because of how
the the market is and people want it
lighter, that's where we've

(33:20):
gone. But I I think too you have
to think about
trichome ripeness and maybe flower ripeness as maybe
two different things.
Because like you were saying, if you were
to select or pull something for flower
when you're, like, clear or cloudy,
that maybe wouldn't be the full potential or
the, you know, medicinal effect that you're after.

(33:43):
But because you're discarding the flower and only
smoking
the glands,
the the trichome heads,
you're you're selecting a different part of the
plant to
highlight and and
enjoy. So I think
those are maybe you kinda gotta think about
that in a different way. And, like, I

(34:04):
I believe French cannoli would refer to the
glands as, like, grapes.
You know, you're trying to, you know, pick
a a perfect grape. And if that's what
you're interested in is the the glands, you
gotta be looking at that and not necessarily
the
the flower.
So I'm gonna I'm gonna push you on
this a little bit to get a better
understanding because when I smoke flower,
I'm smoking plant material with glands on them.

(34:27):
And then when I
volatilize
the,
biochemicals
in the oil in the resin, I inhale
that.
And that's the same thing that we're doing
with the hash, though. Right? We're we're taking
and and we're combusting it. I mean, unless

(34:48):
we're I guess, unless we're vaping. But isn't
that the same thing? What what is the
what is the difference between those two experiences?
Yeah. That's a good question. I just think
that the way that I'm I'm looking at
it and in my perspective is that the
way we would harvest for flower versus
hash is is different at the current moment.

(35:11):
I don't know if I have the best,
like, scientific answer to give you. That's not
the perspective or lens that I am going
through.
I'm just more or less saying tell you
how I select, and I'm trying to think
on the fly
of how to maybe give you
how my head is or brain is processing
this and thinking between the two. Let me
let me try changing the direction of the

(35:32):
question because I think maybe this has something
to do with it.
Do you select for color
differently for market
than you would if you were not going
to market and just toking it with your
friends? Like, do you do you go with
the lighter colors because that's what the market
wants, but but
in your craftsman self, you actually think that

(35:55):
going a little
more amber is actually
a better experience overall? I'm not trying to
put words in your mouth. I'm just trying
to get a delineation.
No. Yeah. That's that's a good question. I
mean, it's been a long time since I've,
ran something
super long.
I think when we did have a cut
of GMO, I would run it, you know,

(36:17):
seventy days versus like ninety or something.
And I think that the color definitely changed,
not drastically.
And I think that the medicinal effect was
similar,
but not
not crazy. And that's just my that was
just my experience.
I think there's a second part of that

(36:39):
question that I'm I'm planking on that I
wanted to,
answer, but,
maybe it'll come to me a couple of
you later, but.
Alright. Well, one more question before we go
to our first break.
You you said that you tend to focus
on plants that can be, ready for harvest
in fifty six days of flower.

(37:00):
Do you find
that
you get more of certain
types of trichomes in plants that are ready
at fifty six days
than you do in plants that are ready
at seventy days, for example?
I'm just guessing
that you would have
trichomes

(37:21):
that are
are,
easier, I guess, for the plant to produce
since they've got two weeks less to do
it.
I'm not sure if this is due to
the fact that we are
running them,
less time or if this is just the
nature of what we've been

(37:43):
presented
from from our selections or environmental
factors or or the medium or what we're
feeding them. But it seems to be we're
finding more of the
the stringer variety somewhere in the
the the greasy but not lotion.
And we're not finding a lot of sandy
stuff that that one's super hard for us

(38:04):
to find. And maybe some other folks
who are
letting the plant go longer are finding that
their heads are
responding differently. They're,
getting more stable or or less. I don't
think that changes a whole bunch. Like, when
I'm sometimes I'll I'll test plants in week
four to see if they're,

(38:25):
you know, that lotion y type of trichome.
And if I see that, I'm I'm fairly
confident that that's not gonna change. So I
sometimes will pull stuff in week four that
I'm
thinking that looks a little,
not favorable to what I'm after. So
it's hard for me to say. I guess
I'd have to do a side by side
in front of me to be like, oh,
this plant,

(38:46):
the trichome attributes change. But,
yeah, that that's just kinda what we're experiencing
and seeing.
Right on. Cool. Well, we're gonna go ahead
and take a short break and be right
back, and we're gonna talk more about choosing
your genetics.
You are listening to Shaping Fire, and my
guest today is Hashmaker
Connor Terp Wizard. And, you know, without these

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Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host, Shango Los, and my
guest today is hash maker, Connor Terp Wizard.
So before the break, we were talking a
lot about,
the types of trichomes that develop on plants
that go fifty six days and

(45:16):
and how you are
hunting your own seeds
to find winners that that you want to
use to run hash. But let's talk for
a minute about,
for folks who are choosing
their
genetics that other people have made. Right?
Because I am sure that you have got
some
good suggestions for things to look for

(45:38):
when using seeds that are not yours.
So so if you would, kind of speak
to this idea of of, you know, the
breeders and types of strains
that might have a higher ratio of hashers
in them where people should look.
Yeah. It seems like a few people

(45:59):
are, like, solely hunting
for stuff that washes.
And
it seems like there's a couple
repeat
genetics that seem to be
used in order to,
you know, have a higher probability of washing.
And

(46:20):
I think I touched on maybe one of
them on the earlier ones, and and more
of these things keep coming up as time
goes
on.
But,
yeah, I I talked briefly about, like, the
chem lineage and and GMO that seems to
be very,
popular
for washability,
finding those, like, sandier profiles.

(46:42):
Also, you know, there's a Bloom Seedco seems
to be
the the the popular person for for washers
at the moment. Seems like everyone
that I know
and
seem to be beginning to know is running
some of their gear.
As of late or, you know, they were
they were running a lot of strawberry guava.

(47:03):
That seems to be a pretty decent washer.
It keeps repeating and and making itself in
there.
In the past, you know, Tropicana cookies, I
know for
a second maybe,
Orange got a little bit overdone, that profile,
and that seems to come in waves. You
know, Superboof is a really popular
version that reminds you of, like, Tangier, Tropicana

(47:23):
kinda in that realm.
There there's a a fair amount. I would
say
when you're starting
to
go down the rabbit hole of buying seeds
to maybe do a little research, those more
popular ones will have more info online.
And if you're seeing some, like, metric or
recreational or or bigger companies run those genetics

(47:45):
and release a lot of it, that might
be a good way to be like, okay.
There's probably something going on, but that's a
good probability washing
and doing your research on who's making it
in the environment.
Because I know, for me, I like supporting
more of the DEM,
community when I can for,
finding genetics because not only are they, you

(48:07):
know,
running unique projects that you won't
find anywhere else, like, some people are doing
preservation projects, some people are just, like, multiple
generations of breeding their own stuff.
Super unique. But it also will work outside
and,
depending on where your climate is, would probably

(48:27):
last pretty good and is a generally hardy
plant. So,
yeah, I'm digging. I'm trying to find as
much info I can on the parent lineage
when starting, and and Google's a great tip
for that and and or great place to
start and as well as Instagram.
And then trying to do some research, and
if you can, talk to the person

(48:47):
making the seeds to figure out a little
bit more about their situation, what they're growing
for,
where they're at, how they're making the seeds.
And I think
that's maybe a great way to to start
and do your research as a seed buyer
to be like,
okay, you know, this guy
is producing the same thing
I am. They're they're going for hash production.

(49:10):
And they, you know
when I was lucky enough to go to
Spain, I
met Doc Hayes who was
hunting for a lot of line profiles. I
got to smell the female of his,
male that he used and experience what he
was selecting for, and I knew he was
already a very talented hash maker.

(49:31):
And we're just getting to those now, so
I'm hoping that because of all the hard
work and time and similar,
process he does that that will translate
into what we find. I find more than
not,
if the practices are the same, a lot
of those things come a lot easier in
the long run.
For the folks who are not familiar with
the term DEM that Connor used, that's a

(49:54):
dragonfly
earth medicine, which a is a an environmental
certification
for,
both the cleanliness of the cannabis product, also,
not using synthetics,
and and and growing in ways that are
in line with,
environmental
stewardship.
Do you think that's a do you think
that's a fair way to to capsulize it,

(50:16):
Connor?
Yeah. I think that's if people are interested,
they can look more into it. There's definitely,
more you can do on that go down
that rabbit hole, but I think that's a
great way to to sum it up and
be efficient about it. Yeah. Very good. And,
the the you know, there are other,
environmental,
certifications
out there, but, in in in my experience,

(50:37):
DEM is
of a level level of elite
all its own because,
it's it's more than just don't use synthetics.
It's a it's a whole vibe that goes
along with it. And your farm is Dem
certified. Right, Connor?
Correct.
That's an achievement.
Yeah. It took some serious work and moving

(50:58):
out here,
we had that goal in mind to to
do that. So we were we looked for
that prop this property to
to do that. And,
yeah, they do offer both indoor and out
at the moment, but when we got certified,
they only did,
outdoors. So our outdoor farm is certified. We
grow the same way indoors and out, but
we just don't have that extra we haven't

(51:20):
had anyone come out to certify our our
indoor, but the outdoor one was what we
were we were,
you know, going for when we moved out
here. Right on. So, yeah, let's let's continue
that that direction of the conversation about about
the new space that you set up and
then you were able to do your garden
design
for Hash. You know, I'm curious. Are there
any changes to your garden design or arrangement

(51:42):
for growing plants for Hash? The only one
I could think of is perhaps leaving
extra wide rows
so that you can cut lead quickly do
the cut and freeze process
instead of
when you're just gonna let it hang dry
and cure. Sometimes we cut a little more
slowly and, you know, put them directly into

(52:02):
bins or whatever.
But but that's that's that's me just extrapolating.
So so when you design your garden, did
you design anything into it specifically
because you were gonna be making hash?
I think
I don't think I designed anything
per se differently. I think,

(52:26):
that
between building one greenhouse and the next,
I definitely left myself
more room to work
By doing one big bed and not having
a lot
of
space on the side, it made it a
little bit harder to move. So as you
go, I guess that would be designed. I
just I got my brain wouldn't think of

(52:46):
it like that. But as you go, you
realize, oh, shoot. This would be done better
this way or whatnot. So that this our
most recent greenhouse build, there's a huge walkway
in the middle. So you can put a
table.
And we don't like to really the the
less
touching of the plant, the less,
you know, touching of the trichomes, the better

(53:08):
because all that extra movement
is knocking off what you've tried so hard
to grow and,
you know, preserve.
So we try to get our plants down
in a window of, like, ideally, it'd be
thirty minutes or less. An hour's okay. You
know, at the end of the season when
the nights are super cold,
sometimes it goes

(53:29):
a little bit longer than that, but we
try to get it down as quick as
possible.
I'd like to figure out maybe more how
to get the whole plant down at once.
But,
we're we're usually taking chunks out, you know,
being very careful about how the jute trellis
is cut. And then,
each of us are taking a stock that's
manageable and working through it and and trimming
off the,

(53:51):
families mainly and then just getting the rest
in in in buckets. Indoors, I think I
I think we I'm trying to remember. It's
been
a a few years now since I've grown
for flower, but I feel like when I
was doing that, the trim up method had
changed a little bit from how we,
how much we were cleaning up on one
versus the other. And I I can't remember

(54:12):
for the life of me if it was
I was leaving more for flower or less,
but,
if it was a more recent transition, I'm
sure I would have been able to to
touch on that a little bit more.
I know that because of the Dem certification
and your personal interest that that, you know,
you're growing into living soil
and you're using organic amendments and and all

(54:32):
of the kind of regenerative,
minded cultivation.
I'm curious if you have the experience to
speak to though,
if you've noticed any difference in wash yield
or quality when you use organic living soil
versus salt based nutrients? I'm not sure if
you had a bottle period in your life
that to speak to this or not.

(54:54):
I did, but unfortunately,
I didn't I wasn't washing much during that
period.
The
it was more of a favorable flower market
at that time and because of, you know,
it takes a little bit of time to
develop
a,
group of patients or clientele or however you
wanna think about that that are searching for

(55:15):
either hash or flower, and those are two
different type of
of people. Sure it is.
So,
yeah, I don't have side by side, but
from what I've seen and and tried, I
know that there you can make great hash
from synthetic, but what speaks to me is
to be able to grow in living soil,

(55:36):
regenerative and,
environments.
And I personally
think that our best resin comes out of
our greenhouse. There's just something
to growing under the sun and letting the
plants go through the season.
We don't do any light depths or really
much electricity out there. I'll run a couple

(55:57):
of fans in our smaller greenhouse because there's
not a lot of clearance.
But I I like to really let the
plants just
experience the season. I think you get some
great
results out of that. And,
the resin seems to be more stable from
I like to keep numbers as far as,
like,
tracking our wash results, and,

(56:17):
they're always higher outside without a doubt. We
just
washed, like, two weeks ago. I hit the
highest number I I have indoors,
which is really cool because it was a
strain I made, which is great in speaking
volume to what we're doing with the selections.
And that was a creme de gruppaea to
sour diesel, and the creme de gruppaea was

(56:39):
papaya to grape cream cake. So we made
the papaya to grape cream cake cross and
then cross with the sour diesel,
and that hit 6%
indoors in the wash numbers.
And then outside, our best wash was also
another strain we made. And last year, we
hit 7%,
and that was a another sour cross, and
that was, tripaya

(57:01):
to sour, which we were calling sour tripaya.
So I think there's something to it for
us. We're seeing the numbers.
The resin quality is stable. Things are washing.
People are
I think
you're getting a more complex
profile. There's things that aren't
present

(57:21):
and I don't think achievable with our setup
indoors
versus outside. You're just getting something that's
having a wider array of food to
ingest in a spectrum of light that is
not replicable,
for us indoors.
Yeah. I certainly, you're preaching to the choir
here on Shaping Fire about the the the

(57:42):
the improvements and power of growing under sun
versus indoor. I mean, certainly,
I have,
enjoyed and grown excellent stuff indoors, but that
wide,
wide terpene profile that comes from the sun
is is just delightful. And, you know, whenever
possible, it's it's really nice to be able
to work with,
nature, in tune with nature instead of trying

(58:04):
to dominate nature to to give us what
we want out of it.
So
I wanna circle back around to the
the point of at which that you harvest.
So,
if if we know that you're not looking
for the amberness that you did when you

(58:25):
were
growing
for flower,
and we know that the market encourages
you
to
cut when they are more cloudy.
Are you,
is that what you're looking for, a percentage
of cloud
before you cut,
or is there more to it? I can

(58:46):
imagine
there may be a, you know, you deciding
the terpene component
is matured well enough
as well. But I'm I'm looking very specifically
what are the boxes that you personally need
to check when you decide, okay, tomorrow is
the day.

(59:07):
I like to scope multiple parts of the
plant because I feel like the doneness from
the top
colas to the bottom,
can be
different.
So I want
as much
cloudiness from both of them as possible.
So,
yeah, it it's it's it is a tricky

(59:28):
window because it seems like some plants
can go through that faster than others.
And there there are plants too that we'll
test out and that just, like, maybe are
not as receptive to being outside. And I'll
be like, okay. This one's gotta go. Maybe
it's not as cloudy
as I want, but if we continue to
go, like, this plant isn't faring well with
the season.

(59:49):
And if we let it go too longer,
it might be all for all for loss
and go into the compost. So sometimes you
do have to make those hard calls and
cut them out even before they're through, but
that's that's part of doing this is finding
stuff. And in the long run, that's only
gonna make,
your selections
better. And and hopefully, if you're you're making

(01:00:11):
seeds, that will
keep those traits and selections,
going forward. So if you're pulling out the
crap that's not working for your end of
season pressures or whatever pressures you're experiencing, that
that will have a trickle down effect in
further generation.
I'm gonna push you for a little bit
more quantification
there.
There is a rule of thumb when growing

(01:00:33):
flower
that, you know, to harvest when 20%
of your trichomes are showing some amber.
You know, certainly that can be debate debated,
but, you know, it is a common rule
of thumb.
What is your rule of thumb when or
or or mark box that you have to
check when when you are determining
if enough of them are cloudy? Are you

(01:00:55):
looking for
20%
cloudy? Or because we're not talking amber, are
you actually, oh, I I actually want them
to be, like, 80%
cloudy, and maybe the first ones might be
starting to be amber? Like, where in that
range? What are you really looking for when
you scope them?
Yeah. I don't think I have a specific
percentage I'm looking for. I'm just looking for

(01:01:16):
majority
cloudy.
If we're starting to get into amber, that's
that's fine. I just don't wanna be pushing
a large percentage. I'm not afraid of darker
hash. Like, there's definitely some type of,
if I had swatches in front of me,
there would be a color that I would
be like, this is not acceptable. This is
where we draw the line.
But we do have batches that and it

(01:01:39):
tends to be more of like the purple
flower varieties
that come out darker,
and that's totally fine. They don't all have
to be blonde.
But, yeah, when I'm when I'm trying to,
pull
and
and figure out that ideal harvest date, I'm
looking for I don't want a majority clear.

(01:02:00):
Obviously, we've talked about I don't want majority
amber. So I'm looking for that sweet spot
where
all, if not most, are cloudy. And a
little bit of either or is fine, but
the majority need to be in that that
cloudy realm. There we go, dude. Thank you.
Thank you for letting me push you. You're
welcome. I I really needed I knew there
were people listening going, dude, push him. Get

(01:02:21):
get get get something that we can really
work with, and and now we have actionable
information.
Right? We want, like, you know, like, you
know, seventy, eighty percent or more cloudy,
under 5%
amber, boom, go. Like, people with that, people
can then add their intuition.
But but now now you've really, like, put
a line in the sand. So so thanks,
Connor.

(01:02:42):
Okay, Rad. Sorry. I took a little extra
pushing to get what you were, after. Right
right on. Right on. So,
you know,
have you noticed that,
or or do you add any kind of
soil amendment or biostimulant
or
anything at all to your,
to your substrate

(01:03:03):
to that that you believe enhances
the trichome quality? I mean, we we all
we all seek to grow the most thriving
plants we can, and and and, you know,
there's there's as many different ways to do
that as there are cultivators.
But specifically,
growing for trichomes when you are a trichome
farmer, is there anything where you're like, oh,

(01:03:25):
I always add this because it makes the
hash
because it makes the trichomes more whatever.
Well,
I
don't know if this because we've been doing
a few things consistently. We've changed up a
cute a few things every year. And I'm
finding, in general,

(01:03:46):
the more
diversity
you can give, the wider,
you know,
the more food at the table
for these plants to choose from, I think
that relates to
the complexity of the profile. So
I do like to use a lot of
alpaca manure. There's a farm not too far
from me, and we've been using that,

(01:04:08):
most years that we've been out here. I
think the first year I didn't know her,
yet and wasn't looking for that.
And we were primarily using worm castings, and
then when we figured out we had an
abundance of worms for where we're at, we
were kind of backed off. And I was
like, okay. Let's see if we can get,
another
source of manure that's readily available.

(01:04:30):
And,
I do like using
planting some dynamic accumulators
and turning those into
JLFs,
JADAM liquid fertilizer.
And or, you know,
chop and dropping them.
So we've been experimenting with different things like

(01:04:51):
that.
Mainly with nettles,
steamed nettle Mhmm. And comfrey and yarrow. Those
are
all super accessible for us.
And then on the flower side, we've
the last few years I've been trying to
source pawpaws, which is a fruit that is,

(01:05:12):
a regional fruit, and it's kind of like
a version of a tropical fruit that grows
here in Michigan.
So
I've been trying to source,
clean fruit to make
end of season,
JADAM
liquid fertilizers
to feed the plants.
So paw paws, I finally found a patch

(01:05:33):
last year. This will be the first year
we're using those.
And then, I was able to find some
some pears. So we've used, blackberries in the
past.
That those are in abundance at our property.
And I think I've used another fruit that's
escaping me at the moment.
But, yeah, I like to I like to
try to use different

(01:05:55):
liquid fertilizers.
And and in past seasons too, we've used,
the teas that,
Josh and Kelly of Dragonfly Earth Medicine made.
And this year, we're trying a new tea
recipe that's been very
seems to be more geared towards trichome production

(01:06:16):
indoors, so I'm interested to see how that
works outside. And that's kind of it's just
like a compost tea with a couple extra
things.
We're we're essentially using this
this company called Tea Labs Recipe. If anyone's
interested in looking, we're pretty much following that
to the t.
No, no pun intended, but I got I
got another one in.

(01:06:37):
And,
Tea Labs I'm gonna I'm gonna do jump
on with your Tea Lab, plug too.
Luke there does a great job. I'm using
his stuff again this year as well and,
really like how how clean it all works.
Yeah. It seems to be pretty easy to
understand.
I think anyone

(01:06:58):
with a basic,
understanding of how to put some things together
and just following directions, I think it'd be
great for for anyone of any skill level
and especially for the folks who are used
to using bottles. If you're trying to, like,
grasp
this side of things where there's, at least
for me, getting into
switching from cocoa to to soil, when we

(01:07:20):
did that, it was like, man, this was
such a hard thing to grasp. And and
I,
it's nice when it's an easy recipe laid
out and they make it easy for you.
So those guys have been great. And,
yeah, we're we're we're really excited to see
the results and and compare from last year's
numbers and see, what what that, new recipe

(01:07:43):
does for us,
outdoors,
because it's been so great for us indoors.
So,
last question before we go to our second
break. You know, when when you and I
were talking, kind of prepping for our discussion
today,
we were talking about garden efficiencies,
things that that you were able to do
along the way

(01:08:04):
that that reassured you that you're going in
the right direction. And the one that we
talked about on the phone was the jar
test to let you know, you know, if
you're getting good yield from the plant.
I wondered if you thought of any more,
garden efficiencies like that or or green flags
that you look for in your garden
as the growing cycle is going where you're

(01:08:26):
all like, okay. I got this good green
flag at this stage. Okay. I got this
good green flag at that stage.
Obviously, the jar test is way at the
end. Right? But I but but I wanted
to hear what your green flags were, a
few of them,
during the growing process that that reassures you
that that you're running your game properly.

(01:08:52):
I mean, I think for anyone, it's overall
health of the plant. I I don't think
that's, like, a a great
nugget that I'm giving anyone.
I think
the first thing that came to mind when
you're saying that, it's not answering directly your
question, but
we decided to get soil tests this year
to see

(01:09:13):
how things have been going. And
before we moved into the house, when I
got the the keys enclosed on the property,
We spent
the first weekend or something building where I
make seeds. We put a whole hugel culture
in. So
it was really cool to test all those.
And this was a great, you know, sign

(01:09:35):
that things are going well
because the amount of organic material that's been
building up in the soil based on the
test results
is dramatically
different
from every
greenhouse we put in. So last year,
we put in one
that was very close to planting season.
And then we put in another one that

(01:09:55):
same year
that was
closer to
the end of winter. And then we had
the previous year we put one in. And
then almost
five summers ago,
we put in that first one. And it
is
I have
over 20%
in the one that we put in first

(01:10:16):
and then it goes down and down. And
you could see it
in the soil samples too because we have
sandy soil, so it was really quite a
difference. So that was a major
green,
flag. And I think another thing that came
to mind when you asked this question, I
think I touched on it earlier, was how
we've been
going down the line with our seeds and

(01:10:39):
starting to
see that some of the selections that we've
found in our seeds, and not that we're
hunting
crazy larger populations. Some like
the
star fruit, that creme de grepay, the sourdeesa,
we only hunted 12 seeds and found a
really nice,
selection. Same with that sour trapaya. So

(01:11:00):
it's
those kind of things,
I guess, or what I think of that
are, like, reassuring that we're going down the
right path. I'm not exactly sure that's what
you were looking for answer wise, but that's
what I thought of when you were
asking that question. Yeah. Well, for for start
for starting out that you didn't really have
any, you gave two really good ones. So,
yeah, we'll call that we'll call that a

(01:11:21):
win.
So Okay. Yeah. Right on. So, so let's
go ahead and and take our second short
break, and then we'll be back in talking
a little bit more about,
after
harvest.
We're gonna take that short break and be
right back. You are listening to shaping fire,
and my guest today is Hashmaker,
Connor Turp Wizard.

(01:11:44):
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Welcome back. You are listening to Shaping Fire.
I am your host, Shango Los, and my

(01:17:50):
guest today is hash maker, Connor Terpwizard.
So Connor, here at the end here, we're
gonna talk about a few things that, are
to be considered after and during the the
harvesting process.
But one question
that I'm asked regularly
by folks who are moving into Hash is
how

(01:18:11):
yield numbers are calculated. What's the wash number?
And for those of us who have done
this many times, the the math is is
very basic. But but will you walk it
walk us through it for folks,
who are listening because they're excited about making
their own hash for the first time?
Yeah. So we have three numbers we calculate.

(01:18:32):
There's the wash number.
There's return
from
rosin
to
hash and then to to rosin number. So
the way those are calculated, you have to
have a fresh frozen number. So
or if you're doing it dry, that works
too. It doesn't doesn't really matter if it's
dry or wet, but this is how you

(01:18:53):
calculate it. So
you get that weight of the material,
and then you wash it, you
know, dry the the the trichomes, and then
you weigh that.
And you're dividing
your fresh frozen
by the
the hash, so a bigger number by smaller,
and then you get a percentage, and that's
how that's calculated.

(01:19:14):
So then when you press your rosin, we'll
take
the hash divided by rosin, and that's the
return percentage. We're seeing
a a good number for us is in
the the eighties. Nineties is very high, and
then as you go lower, it's
there means that that's like a lower quality

(01:19:35):
head.
And then finally,
you have your terrazzan number. So
that is divided, you know, the larger number
of fresh frozen to terrazzan, and that will
give you that percentage.
So when people are using these terms like
this washed this much,
this was this much to hash, most people
don't say the return.

(01:19:56):
That's more,
a more, nuanced thing that not that many
people talk about. It's not as important.
But, just to show, like, the quality of
the
the trichome head and and how much more
heads you had than stalks
or any other stuff in that dried hash,
contaminant per se.
So,
yeah, that that's how that's calculated,

(01:20:17):
and,
I think there's
some folks
out there, and I've I've heard this,
and
that don't calculate it, and it'll be like,
oh, a really good
wash. They'll be like, this is 5%
or 7%, and then not actually do the
math.
And that doesn't really mean anything without the
numbers. So Yeah. For anyone starting, that's that's

(01:20:40):
how that's all,
calculated.
So I have a question since I don't
work with, frozen material here at my house.
You mentioned that you you either take the
the dried cured material or the fresh frozen
material,
and you,
then you do your math comparing that to

(01:21:00):
the the dried,
trichome heads that you have removed from the
plant.
I'm curious if when you do fresh frozen,
does it do you think it skews the
numbers a little bit because the plant is
frozen
and perhaps has got additional weight from
ambient water freezing and attaching itself to the

(01:21:22):
plant?
I guess the skewing of the numbers would
be a perspective thing in the time of
when you were doing this in,
you know, a time period. Because I feel
like this is just what I'm used to
and and what seems to be the
the common thing.
So for me, washing so little of,

(01:21:45):
dry material,
it would seem wild to me if someone
gave me numbers of dried material because they're
gonna be dramatically different, like fresh frozen materials
and the single percentages
where I've heard dry can be, you know,
in in the tens or, you know, twenty,
thirty, something like that. So for me, that
that's normal from to look at it. But

(01:22:07):
I could see how the extra water weight
would skew it if you were looking at
it from the other side.
Yeah. Anyway,
weird specific question, but I've I've always wondered
about that. I'm all like, man,
frozen doesn't get a get doesn't get a
fair shake when it comes to yield be
when compared to dry because it with the

(01:22:27):
extra water. But but yeah. So I guess
that I guess the the point of that
is is it is it's, it's really hard
to compare
fresh frozen yield numbers to to dry yield
numbers
because the process is so different.
Yeah. I don't think you you accurately can
because
I'm

(01:22:48):
under from the people who I've talked that
have even done partial dries,
it will kind of,
change how the trichome will react. So I've
I've had people
tell me that they've,
I don't know how common this is these
days or
maybe it is for some people, but I
don't really hear people talking about it, where
you do a few day dry and then

(01:23:09):
you freeze it and wash it because the
head becomes more durable. So strains that typically
wouldn't wash
would wash better, but then those numbers are
skewed.
So you can't really compare those two. I
would say if you're gonna do one, use
those numbers to compare. And then if you're
gonna do the other, use that. But don't
don't try to mix it because you're not
gonna get
it it's not

(01:23:29):
an easy thing to do side by side.
Right on. You mentioned,
during when we were talking about harvesting,
that you and your team try to touch
the plants
as little as possible and are are very
careful with your trellis,
do you have any other recommendations
for like like, for example,

(01:23:50):
what do you
after you chop and you're pulling off in
sections,
what do you like to put your plants
into? Like like, just walk us through the
the steps from the cut,
to it being in the freezer.
Yeah. Well, if I was approaching how to
teach someone how to do this, I would

(01:24:10):
say
start with a section that's manageable,
because if you start getting crazy and there's
a bunch of extra limbs on it and
you get too big, then you're gonna have
stuff bumping together and the potential loss for
for trichomes. So maybe somewhere that's like from
your elbow to the,
point of your, you know, where your middle

(01:24:31):
finger is. That might be too big for
some people, so you just kinda gotta assess
that. And then you wanna be grabbing the
stalk, you don't wanna be touching any of
the flowers.
And from there,
you're removing
any leaves that don't have trichome coverage or
have any damage. I wouldn't
be chopping the tips off of plants because
then you're opening up places

(01:24:53):
for
Any kind of pathogen to get into the
stem?
I was thinking more of, like, chlorophyll.
Oh.
To get into the to water. I see.
Did you guys come out of the plant?
Put potentially.
Because we've been chopping as close to the

(01:25:14):
stalk as possible
and and removing the the
leaf where it connects the stem. Mhmm. That
doesn't seem to cause issues. But I don't
I don't like to trim the tips off
of the leaves because they've been damaged or
doesn't have trichome coverage. If they have trichomes
and it's a healthy leaf, we leave it
on.
And then you're trying to
you're not trying to chop the flower in

(01:25:35):
half by any means. There's natural ways that
the flower forms, and you're trying to cut
it off in a way
that is gentle
and
makes sense for how the plant's
morphology is.
So those are some things to think about.

(01:25:55):
And I would say general rule of thumb
is you're trying to keep it about,
if you can, if it makes sense and
you're not damaging the flower, if you can
get it down about the size of your
thumb knuckle up to tip, that would be
a good size.
And what we like to put it in
is we use plastic totes
that fit really well in our freezers

(01:26:17):
and then use a bag,
in the tote.
I've found that if you just use the
bag, what could happen is there can be
some
shuffling and potential trichome loss. So if you
have it in that, form, that solid form,
you can keep it a little bit less
jostled.
And
that's, like, unfortunate one thing that I haven't

(01:26:39):
really found a good solution for that's still
kind of like a single use plastic. If
I've considered going to just boxes, but I
still
I haven't found that that's, like, really any
better, like a plastic box than cleaning it
every time. The
the the turkey bag or tray liner, oven
liner seems to be,
a a good solution at this point.

(01:27:02):
Yeah. We need, we need a we need
a reusable or naturally produced sustainable solution for
that eventually. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you bother trimming
plants,
in advance of, washing them?
I don't really like to do much disturbance
after. So we've only done, like we do

(01:27:24):
two,
cleanups and flower.
Inside, it's really easy, right? Because you're like,
oh, this is day one, this is day
whatever outside. It's just like, okay, one of
the plants starting to flip. Let's get a
little bit more airflow in there. Generally,
you know, on the first, maybe like quarter
of plants going to do a cleanup. And
then based off when those plants start, I

(01:27:44):
try to, like, set a reminder in my
calendar.
Like, alright. Two, three weeks from now, probably
closer to three.
If it was inside, it'd be day one.
Day 21 is when I like to clean
up. And that's just the numbers that work
well for me. I don't wanna
disturb them that late in,
flower. I saw someone make a post about
that where they're cleaning up, and there were

(01:28:06):
some,
Hashmakers that I respect that made some comments
on Instagram about how they wouldn't do that.
They didn't necessarily go too far into it,
but I feel like there's a reason and
those guys have a lot more experience and
knowledge than I do. So,
not that I was going to do that,
but I had thought about what you had
said to do, an end of cleanup. And
I was like, okay. These guys have probably

(01:28:27):
seen material that's had that happen. And,
it wasn't probably favorable or what they expected.
So we're we're gonna keep with the the
two cleanups in flower and just be be
sufficient and happy with that.
Yeah. Right on. I buy that. I would
love to hear their their reasoning too. The
only reasoning I ever heard to to do
the cleanup,

(01:28:47):
before
week six
is,
because in those last two weeks, reaching around
to, you know, to to clean them up
or remove things or,
you're just you're you're bound to touch a
lot more flowers. And and anybody who I
know who's been serious about it says, you
know, almost like slaps my hand, stop touching

(01:29:08):
anything. You know? Like like, we we don't
want your,
you know, your your human skin oil on
my plant. You know?
Yeah. Anytime that I'm, like, trying to smell
a live plant, I'll see if I can
find some of those, like, under canopy less
developed buds and, like, go off of that

(01:29:28):
and, like, fully remove it so that, you
know, you can, like, really, you know,
smoosh the crap out of it and smell
it and be like, okay. I'm not trying
to take a or touch a Top Cola
that's,
you know, the
the prime
real estate on the plant and and, you
know, muck that up.
Yeah.
So so I wanna finish off, the episode,

(01:29:52):
with this talking a little bit about the
transition
from being a hashmaker that's growing other people's
genetics
to,
being a hash maker who is developing your
own. And, you know, a a a good
part of what we've been talking about today
has been folks who are new to growing
for hash because people who are already growing
for hash, well, they they already have a

(01:30:14):
lot of their skills locked down. But this
next part, this is this is kind of,
you know,
a a milestone for a lot of folks
is that they, you know, they learn how
to make hash, and then they learn how
to press it, and, you know, they've then
they learn the the genetics
from, you know, various folks and different varieties
that they really like and, you know, but

(01:30:34):
but there comes a point
when my friends go, well,
shit. What I want isn't on the market,
and I need to make it for myself
either because they want attributes that they can't
find in in you know, available out there
or
b,
you know, there is certainly
a lot of respect with, you know, making

(01:30:56):
your own hash from your own varieties that
you grow yourself, and that's that's pretty
badass, you know. And so
just talk to you for to us a
little bit about what caused you to make
the choice to
start
developing your genetics for

(01:31:17):
growing what you wanted for your own hash
and the the positive attributes. And if there
were any negative attributes, I'd love to hear
that. Just give us a little snapshot of
that transition for you for folks who are
who are getting ready to do that.
Yeah. So I think
when I was starting this,

(01:31:40):
so we moved from a property that I
had a garden to a property where I
didn't have a garden, and we were already
midsummer.
So
for me, it was preservation
and the love for the plants that I
had spent all this time selecting
because
I had been growing for a few years
out here.
I was like, oh, man. I really love
these plants and now

(01:32:02):
I'm gonna have to sell my house to
move into this next house. So
I won't have a garden. I need this
time to build out. So for me, it
was like,
okay, I can preserve these because I don't
have the seeds of it anymore and then
make a new Variety from a male that
I found that was very interesting and called
to me
so I took all my favorite hash plants

(01:32:23):
and put them outside and you know took
that mail that I found the grape cream
cake and hit all my favorite plants and
that was kind of the the start of
it
and every season I've found,
you know, in between seasons
plants
and and that have called to me in
one way or another based on
how the plant is expressing itself or what

(01:32:45):
I've seen from the potential from another person
or
really, like, wanting to preserve or add another
twist on the thing.
So the initial intent was to preserve what
I had and from there, it's gone and
been like, okay. I really like
this
expression that this male is giving me either
from seeing what the females do most of

(01:33:05):
the time that's the case or just being
like, man, this this male is, like, standing
out. Like, it's growing really nice. Like, it's
super vigorous. It has, like,
a crazy stem rub just something
maybe a combination of all those that's just
what speaks to me and then
You know selecting

(01:33:26):
females in a certain way
you're you're pulling traits that you're drawn to.
And I think if you keep doing that,
inevitably,
you know, even if you're just making f
ones, which that's what I've been doing at
this point,
that you're finding that those traits can
come up especially if they're those super dominant
ones that you're seeing

(01:33:47):
present themselves over a larger population, so
my my traits that I've been after
beyond hash are like I want super vigorous
plants that flower in a a
quick time frame
and
hopefully
are
putting on a bunch of weight. And this
year, we're trying to put more of those

(01:34:09):
out
so that that those traits continue on in
in future lineage. And it seems to be
that's that's what I've seen in the last
few years, so we'll see what happens with
this, this next project.
I like how it happened so very naturally.
Right? You didn't you didn't decide,
that you needed that you wanted to go

(01:34:29):
in that direction. You realized you needed
to go in that direction so that you
could preserve,
the work that you had already done.
Do you find
this is I don't know. This seems like
a dumb question, but I really do wanna
know the answer. Do you find it more
satisfying
to be working with

(01:34:51):
the plants that you yourself have
made the genetics for
versus
using stuff that other people
have
grown? I I can see where in the
same way that I prefer to grow to
smoke flower that I have grown myself, I
can imagine that that making hash from plants

(01:35:14):
that you are intimate with would also
give an experience like that.
Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I'm super happy,
like, with finding
stellar selections from other people. That's great. I
I love being able to come back to
that person. Either they're, like, share what we
found,
like, with a jar or, like,

(01:35:36):
you know, in in
wilder situations, like, entering into a competition and
being, like, this this won.
But for me, moving forward, I'd really like
to enter more of my stuff
that I made into competitions and see how
it,
how it fares.
And,

(01:35:58):
that's kind of the next
evolution of it, right? Like, okay, cool. I
saw the potential in this female and I
saw the potential in this male and I
put them together
and it's showing that either it works or
it doesn't and thankfully most times it has
worked. There's been a couple times,
a few times where it's been like, alright,
maybe the
the sum of the total of the these

(01:36:20):
two wasn't as great as the how they
were individually but that's just kinda the game
of of putting, you know, plants together sometimes.
It doesn't always
come out the way you expect for better
or for worse.
So I'm hoping,
as this
year unfolds
that the the female,

(01:36:41):
population from the male we selected, we can
start entering into some things and hopefully it
does well. I've got really high hopes for
it and then that would kinda catapult maybe
this, year's
interest in the new line that we
are,
about to put outside.
Yeah. There's no doubt. Like, doing well in
a competition,

(01:37:01):
really supports people in their marketing of the
genetics. Sometimes I think that it's it's actually
the the reason why people do it. As
you and I have discussed
before, and and we won't get into it
much here, the whole contest scene is its
is its own kind of monster
with with with goods and bads in it.
And, but there there's no doubt that placing

(01:37:23):
will definitely,
increase the the demand for your for your
genetics.
Do you think that
developing one's own genetics with names that judges
have not heard before,
do you think that that,
makes winning more difficult, or do you think

(01:37:45):
it it it creates interest and curiosity in
people?
Well, I don't have too much experience with
competing
in competitions that aren't blind,
so I don't have the best
dataset to answer that. I think a name
can really make or break a strain,

(01:38:07):
as far as, like, in the long run
or just general curiosity.
But if you name it something wacky and
it wins, I think you're gonna, like, have
interest in it regardless. I don't I don't
know.
You know, a name is what you make
of it or what you, like,
have give perception. So, in some respects, giving
it a great name will be

(01:38:28):
super helpful. But, on the other side, I
don't know entirely how much it matters unless
it's just a completely negative
name to begin with. Yeah. Right on. Right
on.
Well, Connor, thank you so much for joining
me on Shaping Fire today to talk a
bit about this this very specific
kind of growing, growing for
for making hash rosin.

(01:38:49):
It is it is clearly an area that
is blowing up and is creating all this
joy in folks, and it's it's amazing to
watch our our, you know, our interest, our
hobby, our love expand as more people get
involved. And,
you know,
you,
you bring a unique perspective to it that
I find very relaxed and even soothing to

(01:39:12):
hear you talk about it. So so thanks
for, spending your time and sharing your experience
and and good nature with us,
so we can we can, you know, learn
from your experience.
Yeah. Thanks again for having me. And if,
like, I think I mentioned it earlier, if
anyone
who took the time to listen to this
and got this far has any questions,

(01:39:34):
just reach out. I'm more than happy to
answer. You know, you can email us on
our website or reach out through Instagram. I
think I'd be a little quicker to respond
to Instagram. But, yeah, I'm more than happy
to explain things and and get you pointed
in the right direction. If I can't answer
that question, I'll point you in the direction
that hopefully someone can.
Fabulous. Well, dear listener, if you would like

(01:39:54):
to reach out to Connor or just follow
along and,
see what he is working on and, keep
up on all of his award winning,
you can do so that on Instagram and
that's at, terp wizard. So it's terp
underscore
wizard
underscore

(01:40:15):
two
point
o. And the point is, you know, just
a period. So it's terp underscore wizard underscore
two period zero
as Instagram.
And their website
is plantmagichomestead.com.
And, that's where you can pick up all

(01:40:35):
sorts of interesting
medicinal items on their website as well as
genetics
that come out of
out of his
garden.
You can find more episodes of the Shaping
Fire podcast and subscribe to the show at
shapingfire.com
and wherever you get your podcasts.
If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate

(01:40:56):
it if you would leave a positive review
of the podcast wherever you download.
Your review will help others find the show
so they can enjoy it too. On the
Shaping Fire website, you can also subscribe to
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news, exclusive videos, and giveaways.
On the Shaping Fire website, you will also
find transcripts of today's podcast as well. Be
sure to follow on Instagram for all original

(01:41:18):
content not found on the podcast.
That's at shaping fire and at shango lows
on Instagram.
Be sure to check out the Shaping Fire
YouTube channel for exclusive interviews, farm tours, and
cannabis lectures.
Does your company wanna reach our national audience
of cannabis enthusiasts?
Email hotspot@shapingfire.com
to find out how. Thanks for listening to

(01:41:38):
Shaping Fire. I've been your host, Shango Los.

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