April 15, 2025 • 42 mins
When was the last time someone stole your idea or explained something to you that you were the expert on? It happens more often than one thinks.
Welcome to another transformative episode of the Shedding the Corporate Bitch Podcast with Bernadette Boas. In this powerful conversation, executive coach Kelly Meerbott joins us to unpack the nuanced, often contentious issue of mansplaining and its impact on workplace dynamics and leadership credibility.
Episode Highlights:
- Understanding Mansplaining: Discover what mansplaining truly entails and its subtle mechanisms aimed at undermining confidence, particularly in women leaders.
- Real-Life Scenarios: Kelly shares insightful stories that illustrate how mansplaining shows up in professional settings and how women can unintentionally find themselves silenced or their ideas overshadowed.
- Strategies to Reclaim Ownership: Learn actionable strategies to elevate your confidence and leadership presence. From aligning with female colleagues for mutual support to mastering communication techniques like alpha tonality, gain insights on how to effectively reclaim your voice and ideas.
- The Role of Men in the Dialogue: Delve into the important role men play in dismantling patriarchal practices. Hear about the significance of allies and how both genders can collaboratively foster an inclusive environment.
- Inter-generational Advocacy: Explore the challenges and opportunities in bridging generational divides among women in corporate settings. Understand the importance of support networks and mentorship for elevating emerging female leaders.
- Practical Takeaways: Whether you're combating imposter syndrome or seeking to bolster your leadership style, Kelly offers profound advice on building enduring confidence, aligning with core values, and navigating corporate power dynamics with authenticity and strength.
Connect with Kelly Meerbott:
- Website: kellymeerbott.com
- LinkedIn: Find Kelly Meerbott on LinkedIn for insights and updates.
Join us as we tackle the intricacies of gender dynamics in the workplace, empowering you with the tools to lead with resilience and authenticity. Whether a victim of mansplaining or as someone striving to create a more inclusive work environment, this episode offers something valuable for everyone aiming to unleash their powerhouse potential.
Don't miss out—tune in now to accelerate your journey towards transformative leadership!
SUBSCRIBE, FOLLOW, and LIKE the show whereever you get your podcasts and on ShedtheBitchTV on YouTube.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
How do you respond when someone takes your idea for
their own or mansplains it awayfrom you?
Do you counter and reclaim youridea, or do you just let it go?
Do you understand whatmansplaining is and how it
impacts your credibility andleadership style?
It's important to understand.
Taking credit or stealingsomeone else's idea doesn't look
(00:25):
good for anyone not for the onewho takes it and not for the
one who allows it.
Our guest, kelly Mirabot, ishere to help you understand what
mansplaining is, the effect ithas on one's leadership style
and how to reclaim ownership ofyour own ideas and contributions
.
Kelly sees the challenges manyleaders have when it comes to
(00:46):
feeling bold, empowered andleading with authenticity and
boundaries, while also owningtheir ideas, opinions and
contributions, or reclaimingthem.
You will walk away with somespecific strategies and tips
that will elevate yourconfidence, empower your
leadership and elevate yourcredibility in the workplace.
(01:07):
Stay with us.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast
that transforms today'smanagers into tomorrow's
powerhouse leaders.
Your host, bernadette Boas,executive coach and author,
brings you into a world wherethe corporate grind meets
personal growth and success ineach and every episode.
With more than 25 years incorporate trenches, bernadette's
own journey from beingdismissed as a tyrant boss to
(01:29):
becoming a sought-afterleadership coach and speaker
illustrates the very essence oftransformation that she now
inspires in others with her tips, strategies and stories.
So if you're ready to shed thebitches of fear and insecurity,
ditch the imposter syndrome andstep into the role of the
powerhouse leader you were bornto be, this podcast is for you.
Let's do this.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Kelly welcome, welcome, welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
How are you, bernadette?
I am so good, especially sincewe are twinning and like so
twinning.
So can we just say for youraudience we have never met
before, right, right, and thishappened, and there's some
off-audio things that we talkedabout that are really
synchronous.
So I am so excited to be hereand I love your work.
(02:16):
I listen to your podcast andbeing here as a guest is not
only an honor, but I'm verygrateful.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well, and I appreciate you being part of it
because I think some of thesubjects you cover are very near
and dear to our listener andviewers hearts, even though they
may not want them to be likeour conversation today about
mansplaining.
But before we get into that, Ilove our audience to really get
to know our guests personally,on a personal level.
(02:44):
So can you share with us alittle bit about Kelly?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah.
So at the core of me,bernadette, I'm a little kid
that wants to have fun and makemischief and change the world.
So I'll tell you something thatonly people close enough.
Well now, obviously when I saythis, it's not going to be that,
but my husband and I love, love, love karaoke and my go-to song
(03:08):
is you May Be Right by BillyJoel.
And if you know that song justfor those people that don't the
hook is you May Be Right, I MayBe Crazy.
So there you go.
I mean, that's me.
I'm very curious about theworld, I get fascinated by
things and literally go down therabbit hole on them.
(03:28):
So you know, I'm really open tolearning new things and I kind
of askew being called an expert,because I feel like when you're
labeled that the learning hasstopped, like you're some kind
of guru on the mountain.
And I'm certainly not that.
I'm just somebody who goesthrough life and learns and
shares things so that otherpeople don't have to suffer.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I absolutely love that and you're so right.
I mean, until I am like sixfeet under, I want to be
learning and growing, makingmistakes, succeeding.
I don't want to ever getcomplacent.
I just want to know thatthere's always something more
that I could know, which, evenfor our very seasoned and, I'll
(04:11):
say, mature listeners andviewers in the corporate world,
I think even this subject isgoing to be kind of an eye
opener for them because it's nottalked a lot about.
So we're going to get intomansplaining and what that's all
about, but I think we need todefine it.
I think you're going to need toprovide some context around it,
(04:32):
because I think many peopleconfuse what it is.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, I mean, it is literally a condescending way to
tell a woman or somebody who isnot a straight white man
something that they know Right.
So I'll give you an example,cause I find that stories really
kind of codify the definition.
You know, I had, or I stillhave, a client right now who's a
(05:00):
COO and he's in his midseventies and he wrote a book in
1984 on leadership.
So he is constantly explainingto me what leadership is, even
though I have made a career outof that.
So things like that, ormansplaining, also can kind of
take the form of, say, you and Iare in a meeting, right, and
(05:25):
we're giving solutions orwhatever.
The man comes in and repeatsexactly what we've just said,
things like that.
But it's really a way to, it'san egoic way to rise above and
put yourself above a woman.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And more so, whether consciously or unconsciously,
diminish.
Not even put yourself abovesome a woman and more so,
whether consciously orunconsciously, diminish.
Not even just put yourselfabove, but work to diminish and
chip away at someone'sconfidence.
Correct?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah, and I I believe that it is a form of oppression
.
I really do, because it's apower over dynamic right.
It's I know better than you andlet me explain that.
And it's like yes, you don'tneed to know.
Like I had a guy who tried toexplain to me how the government
works and I was like do youknow what I do for a living?
(06:18):
And he was like no, I said I'man executive coach to high
ranking officers in the military, leaders at DHS, dot, fema, tsa
and he goes well, obviouslythen you know how crazy they are
.
And he turned and walked awayand I was like OK, I mean, what
do you?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
say to that.
Now, you had made mention,though, that in the scenario you
painted, you know you're in ameeting, yep, and you say
something, you bring up an ideaor a solution, and then a man
comes in, and now I want to makesure to be clear about this.
The man's already been sittingthere.
He's not coming into the room,as much as it might have sounded
(06:59):
that way.
He's actually at the tablehearing you, hearing an
individual say something, bringup an idea, provide a solution,
and then comes in, figuratively,to take that idea.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Yeah, and let me give you an example from my
corporate career because thatmight gel it a little bit more.
So I remember I was sitting ina meeting, right, and it was in
entertainment, so I don't wantto throw the company under right
and it was in entertainment.
So I'm not, I don't want tothrow the company under the bus,
but it was in entertainment andwe're meeting daily.
I was in sales at the time andwe were coming up with
(07:33):
promotional ideas and I came upwith this idea but it was around
the election to send out someof our interns dressed as
election ballots, some of ourinterns dressed as election
ballots and my boss, who was aman, was like yeah, I don't know
(07:56):
, I don't think we should dothat.
Two people later, a guyrepeated word for word what I
said and they thought it wasgenius.
And when I called them out onit, the response was don't be
sour grapes, kelly, and I waslike the hell.
I mean, did you?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
did you pull them out on it right then?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
and there, yeah, I said well, that's literally what
I just said 10 minutes ago,word for word.
And they that's when theyjumped on me and I was sort of
like why are you jumping on meinstead of jumping on him and
saying you need to come up withyour own thoughts and own ideas?
(08:33):
So that that's a better way ofexplaining it, I mean, or
another way I can explain it.
I don't know if I told youabout my book of 10 fables,
where it's all about things thatI learned in corporate right,
so I haven't released the secondvolume.
However, there is a fable aboutmockingbirds, because
mockingbirds repeat exactly whatother birds do and it's all
(08:58):
about mansplaining and mentaking over space in mixed
environments and not reallyhaving their own original ideas.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, Now who do you fault for that?
And that seems like a trickyquestion, but who do you hold
responsible for not onlyallowing it to happen, but then
for the response and thereaction to the response?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, I fault the systems, processes, procedures
that were built in favor of men.
That's what they wereconditioned in.
I also fault the ego, you know,because that is a self-worth
issue.
It's oh my gosh, am I relevant?
She came up with such a greatidea and I'm going to take that,
so I seem more important, right?
(09:45):
Because that's that's how allof us were conditioned in the
patriarchy and with misogyny andsexism.
I mean, I hate to say this, butthe United States is the 10th
most dangerous place in theworld for women and children.
We live in a rape culture.
So it really, you know, stemsfrom that and conditioning and
all of that.
And I think for me, I was justlike in my situation.
(10:09):
I thought first of all, I waswrong, but I was also in my
early twenties.
It should be an excuse for it,right, right, no, it shouldn't
be an excuse for it, but I wasso green into the corporate
world that I hadn't experiencedthat before, you know.
And and when I went to collegeI don't know if you experienced
this I was told the myth thatwe've broken the glass ceiling
(10:31):
and that doesn't happen anymore.
So I think, going back in mymind's eye, I was really in
shock because I couldn't believethat this guy in real time was
stealing this idea.
And they were jumping out, likeI said, they were coming out on
me and not on him and it'salmost like this surreal kind of
coming out of your body sort oflike is this really happening?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, I have found.
I found in your illustrationthat everyone in that room was
responsible.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
The leader of the meeting was responsible for not
calling out the individuals whomansplained obviously was guilty
.
People that didn't support youknow and raise their voice are
guilty and not supporting acolleague.
And then and then, in a sense,because you write about this and
I I'm curious about it you I'mgoing to say you in this
(11:27):
instance because it was you inthis scenario it's all about how
one raises that up so that it'snot taken as if it's defensive
or someone's insecure orcomplaining.
So you talk about communicationis also a real key part and a
(11:47):
skill when it comes to, in thecase of our conversation today,
reclaiming one's ideas orsharing one's ideas.
Can you help us understand howthat is?
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, so I love that question.
Thank you for that.
As I was listening to you, Iwas thinking about and let's
strip away the politics of itbut Obama, who is married to a
strong woman, has two strongwoman daughters In his
administration.
The women in his cabinet cametogether to amplify each other's
(12:20):
ideas so that they weren'ttaken.
And I think, as women sinceyour podcast is called Shedding
the Corporate Bitch part of ourproblem is again, go back to the
patriarchy, right.
It's a distraction to pit usagainst each other.
If I had other women that I wasaligned with in that room and
(12:42):
they amplified my idea, itprobably wouldn't have happened.
So you're exactly right.
I think all of those people wereresponsible.
But if you go to the root ofthe issue, it starts with these
systems and it takes all of us,including men, to dismantle them
, because 70% of my practice iswhite men, white straight men
(13:04):
between the ages of 35 and 65.
In fact, there's a joke amongmy team that I'm called the
white guy whisperer.
You know and, and, and.
The biggest challenge that theyhave is they feel like they are
not part of the DEIA discussion, right, and my response is
that's not true.
We need you because you havethe keys to the kingdom and you
(13:27):
know where the bodies are buried.
And in order to take this apart, we need you.
We need you to give us theroadmap, and they usually get
that.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
This has always been a rub for me when it comes to
men and D and I is.
If you go to a good manywomen's summits, um, there are
very few men on the stage or inthe audience.
But I'm more interested inthose on the stage.
(13:59):
Yeah, you know, sending themessage, partnering with the
women to send the message of whyeveryone should support women
in their role.
What is your take on that?
As far as what you just said,the men want to be part of the
conversation, or that's whatthey're raising up to you, and
(14:20):
yet even I think women arefailing in making sure that they
are at the table or on thestage.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I think you're right, there are some men that are
great and they're allies,advocates and accomplices for
all of us, and I call those theunicorns or my enlightened white
guys.
But I think there are some thatare very performative and what
I challenge those men who are onthe stage to do is make sure
(14:48):
what you're saying on stagematches what you're doing in
your work life.
I had Right, you know, I had aguy who was the head of biotech
and it took me a little bit toget his mind around it, but when
I, when he did, and it clicked,I always say it's like a game
of Tetris, you know, they kindof fall into place and all of
that.
Um, he all of a sudden gotinvited to panels that he wasn't
(15:14):
in those spaces.
He admitted to me later which Ididn't realize that one of his
kids was transgender, so thiswas something near and dear to
his heart and he just took offrunning with it and it changed
his career and he got moreopportunities.
So I agree with you, I thinkthere needs to be more men now.
(15:35):
Do they need to centerthemselves in that space?
No, that is a space for us.
They need to be good guests, becurious and again, be in
alignment.
What you say and what you domatters, because we are right
now in a war with accountabilityand people don't know the
difference betweenaccountability and shaming Right
(15:58):
.
So that's my biggest challengeto my clients is really be an
integrity, do what you sayyou're going to do.
So I definitely think.
Personally, I think people menneed to be in those rooms, but
again, it's not your room, it'sours, so be a good guest.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, no, and that's true, but that's putting all the
onus on the man.
Why aren't women inviting men?
That's what drives me crazywhen I go to these summits and
I'm sitting there thinking Iunderstand this room.
We're all there to support eachother as women and lift each
other up and educate and informAt the same time.
Why aren't you inviting men onstage to provide that advocacy?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably because we have
so few spaces that are dedicatedjust to us and I know when I'm
in a summit there's a mask thatcomes down.
I don't have to worry about adefense mechanism or cognitive
acrobatics.
Like, do I walk out of thehouse looking nice but not too
(17:02):
nice?
Who's going to comment on myappearance?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That all goes away when I'm ina room with women.
So it could be a protectivething.
I don't really.
From my point of view, it couldbe that it's like this is our
space.
But I agree with you.
I think we should be invitingmen into this more.
And actually I'm doing a panelon the 19th and it's all women
(17:24):
and now I'm thinking maybe Ishould talk about resilience
yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Absolutely, absolutely Well.
You brought up another goodpoint and it'll also kind of
compliment our conversationaround mansplaining, but you
said that people don'tunderstand the difference
between accountability andshaming, so let's make sure they
do.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yep, yep.
So shaming, it's about intentand nuance, right.
Shaming, you know, I recentlyhad somebody body shame me,
right?
And it was a man which,whatever, it's fine.
I don't give credence to whathe says, but it's all about.
Oh, kelly, why are you soworried about how you look and
(18:12):
do you really think you shouldbe wearing those things?
It's like this this is thewearing those things.
It's like this this is the tone, right it's.
It's making you feel likegarbage versus hey Kelly, you
promised to get me this on adeadline and it's now a day
after.
What happened?
That is holding somebodyaccountable, and part of my job
(18:32):
as a coach is really to hold youaccountable to the best version
of yourself.
And I'll give you an example ofthat.
I had somebody who kept notdoing the work we were talking
about.
Right, we do a core purposeexercise in our work, and he
just kept missing the deadlineand apologizing to me, and I
said you don't need to apologizeto me, you need to apologize to
(18:56):
yourself.
This is a commitment you madeto yourself, right?
And I'm just reflecting backwhat I'm seeing.
I don't make them feel bad.
You know about, about things orchoices that would be more like
working with a first gradeteacher who's like, no, no, no,
now go stand in the corner andyeah, it's shaming him Right
(19:22):
right Now.
There have been some men in mypersonal life who I have taken
pleasure in shaming because theywere being not very nice, not
very kind, but that really is adefense mechanism and I I
believe that in in all ofshaming it's, it's again.
You know, making you feelashamed of yourself versus
(19:46):
accountability is more aboutrising up and and reaching your
highest potential.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
And reminding yourself of what you committed
to and what you signed up for,and what the expectations of the
goals are.
What do women need to do tohandle and manage someone who
might be mansplaining them?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
So one of the things we can you know I already
mentioned is aligning yourselfwith other women who you know
their strength in numbers Beforeyou move on from that, though
let's break that down a littlebit more.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Were you suggesting that if they have other women on
the team, they shouldintentionally and purposely come
together and discuss howthey're going to support each
other, how that in a meeting, ifsomething should come up, they
should, you know, support themand, and you know, kind of echo
back?
What that individual said isthat's specifically what you
(20:42):
mean when it comes to aligningwith other women.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, and it's having a conversation offline and
saying like, hey, I noticed,this happened to you, it's
happened to me before, as youknow.
Let's come together and alignourselves and have that
conversation.
Obviously, we know from Joe itlooks like this.
So when he says that I'm verypermission-based, Would it be
(21:06):
okay with you if I say this?
You know what I mean.
It's not another energy ofblindsiding, because that that's
what that is my man's playing,blindsides people and knocks you
off your center so that you,you can't think clearly, which
is what happened to me in thatroom.
I was a little bit like I wasshocked, I was taken aback and
(21:31):
you know my defense mechanism isfreezing.
So I just kind of like stoptalking and sink back into
myself and I don't do it as muchanymore.
But yeah, I do believe intalking to other women in the
organization and saying this isnot fair, it's not right, we
(21:53):
can't do it alone.
Not fair, it's not right, wecan't do it alone.
So help me out.
So that's in a group settingFor me.
I'm not somebody who callspeople out in public.
I do it in private, AlthoughI'm thinking about a meeting I
facilitated last week and I didcall somebody out, but it looked
like this and I'll get back tothe other piece in a second but
(22:13):
he was talking about one of thethings he wanted to work on in
2025.
And he said it's talking overpeople and interrupting and
literally there were 40 of hiscolleagues in the room nodding
behind him that he yes, he doesthat.
So the meeting proceeds and oneguy starts to give an answer to
one of our questions and thisguy jumps in and starts talking
(22:35):
over him and I looked at him, Igo, I'm going to pause you there
for a second.
Remember when we talked aboutyou talking over people and
literally the room erupted andhe was fine, Like he was fine
because I did it very tongue incheek and you know, again,
that's not shaming, Right, I washolding him accountable.
So the the opposite of that,the shaming piece would be like
(22:58):
blah, blah, blah.
I told you, if you're going towork on your goals, why would
you do that?
Blah, blah, blah.
You know it's that energy andintent behind it where I, in my
mind, I would want to take himdown a peg.
That's the intention, right.
Again, to make him ashamed ofhis behavior.
That's not effective.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
That was my go-to.
That's where the corporatebitch all stemmed from.
Was that would have been mygo-to 15, 20 years ago, and it
just doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
It doesn't work.
And the other thing thatdoesn't work is us getting upset
and screaming, even if we areRight it's.
I remember somebody was thatperson who wrote the book like I
told you was mansplaining to mein the middle of a meeting and
my response was Okay, because Iknow that as women in leadership
(23:54):
positions, we do not have thegrace and space to get upset
because what happens we'relabeled bitch, aggressive,
assertive, emotional emotionalYep Absolutely, absolutely.
So it's really, really importantto stay calm in this.
Take a breath right.
(24:15):
One of the things I teach myfemale executives is put your
tongue to the roof of your mouthand count to 10.
Count to 10 before you saysomething, because we don't want
to come out looking like youknow a crazy person, because
we're all automaticallydisqualified and our credibility
is out the window.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
It's hard to get back in an instant, but it'll take
forever to get it back.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah, and right after that meeting where that guy was
mansplaining to me, it was theC-suite meeting and the chief
technology officer and the CHRO,who are both women the CHRO is
a black woman they came over tome later and they were like so I
bet you're not going to ever,you know, forget that word again
and I go nope.
And then they said but wereally liked how you put him in
(25:02):
this place.
I didn't do anything but sayokay, okay, and guess what?
Three days later I got anapology email from him.
I would say the other thing interms of mansplaining, right,
especially if you're anintrovert and you don't want to
again, it's not a good idea tocall them out in a group setting
(25:25):
, because what will happen isthe other men will either pile
on or do something else todiscredit you, right?
What I like to do is say can wehave a conversation?
And I do it right away.
It's kind of like we weretalking about our dogs, right?
If your dog pees on the floor,you're not going to be like 10
(25:46):
minutes later correct them.
You want to correct them rightthere.
So I'll basically say listenthem right there.
So I'll basically say listen.
You know, I noticed in thatmeeting that you were X, y, z,
whatever it was.
You know, I had already saidthat and I'm just wondering
where the cognitive dissonanceis, like what made you do that?
(26:06):
Or what made you?
You know, and I don't use theword you because it puts people
on defense immediately so I'llsay, you know, I understand,
like that information was beingshared and I I had already said
that.
So I'm just wondering where mygap in blind spot is right, to
give them a little bit of graceto to understand and let it
(26:29):
click in, like, like I said,like Tetris, right, and usually
it does and they will coursecorrect.
Um, in fact, that that guy, Iwas in a meeting with him last
Monday and he's, he even madefun of himself he goes.
I, I did everything short ofbludgeoning Kelly over the head
when I was like he goes, do youremember that meeting?
I'm like he goes, do youremember that meeting?
I'm like mm-hmm, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
And, by the way, it's been subject of many podcast
discussions and many rangewriting pieces.
So what should women work onwhen it comes to ensuring that
they are owning their ideas orreclaiming them and sharing them
without feeling as if they haveto lower themselves or to
finish themselves?
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Well, bernadette, I like to get to the root of
people's issues.
I'm not a therapist, butthere's always things that
happen in our lives to informthings.
So I would say, build yourconfidence.
Confidence is not something youhave, it's something you build.
So build that.
Make sure that you're alignedwith your core purpose and your
values.
And the other thing I wouldwork on is imposter syndrome.
(27:43):
70% of the global populationhas it, so just remember you
belong in that room, there's areason why you're in that room.
And then build up your internalresilience and your strength,
because this is not going awayuntil those systems, processes,
procedures are dismantled.
(28:04):
And I would say, try modelingthe behavior for other women
that you want to see.
Right.
We'll go back to Gandhi's quotebe the change you want to see
in the world.
You know, yeah, and the thingthat I hear from the mentees
that I have as millennials Gen Z, gen Alpha is that and this is
unfortunate, and I don't thinkit's every woman, but women in
(28:25):
the boomers and Gen X, which iswhat I am are not giving a hand
up to the you know I am are notgiving a hand up to the you know
future generations, and Ireally think we need to come
together and drop our egos andunderstand that just because we
scratched and scraped our way toget to the top, that doesn't
(28:48):
mean the next generation has to.
We can teach them.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
And what have you found as to why they're not?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
I think it's insecurity and I think, well,
let me drop the.
I think it's insecurity and itis a feeling of irrelevance.
What I have found, especiallyworking with the boomer
generation they are wrapped into this.
What I do is who I am right,and that's not it.
(29:19):
It's what you do is one sliverof who you are.
You're a mom, daughter, sister,friend, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, right.
What you do is what you do,it's not who you are.
So, as they are sunsetting theircareer, it's painful.
There's grief involved.
There is who am I now Right?
(29:41):
And then add in empty nestsyndrome, add in caring for your
parents, which is kind of aninteresting dynamic.
Life doesn't come and go.
Hey, kelly, you're no longer akid, you're a caregiver.
No, it just all of ainteresting dynamic Like life
doesn't come and go.
Hey, kelly, you're no longer akid, you're a caregiver.
No, it just all of a suddenhappens and you're like wait a
second.
So so I think all of thosethings you know, but but really
(30:03):
I think the root of it is isfeeling relevant and also, you
know, insecurity, like what am Igoing to do next with my life?
Or the other thing is well, Ihad to go through it.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I thought it was maybe the fact that when they
look at all these other youngergenerations they're too lazy to
put time into, they don't have,you know, unrealistic
expectations, and nothing I cansay will help them kind of get
more serious and get more formalaround seeking a job.
(30:40):
They just want everything rightnow and they want to do it
quickly and they want to soar tothe top and expect to be taken
to the top without putting thework in.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I think that's a misidentification on the part of
Gen Zers and Gen Xers.
It really is.
The mentees that I work withare some of the hardest working
people that I've ever met.
They don't expect anything, butthey don't want to burn out.
They don't want to be loyal toan organization that's going to
(31:10):
quote unquote give you a goldwatch.
They watched us and the boomergeneration get well, it's
shutting the corporate bench,get screwed over by, you know,
these organizations that haveliterally only seen them as cogs
in the wheel.
You know, I mean, at leastthat's from my perspective I
think you know we have a lotmore in common with the future
(31:43):
generations than we allowourselves to see, because we're
saying the same thing indifferent ways, and they learned
from us.
They learned from us.
I mean, I worked in't matterthat I had recovered, you know,
$1.7 million in one market, orcreated $680,000 in new revenue
in advertising when nobody wasbuying advertising in 2008.
(32:05):
So I didn't think it couldpossibly be me that got laid off
.
Well, guess what?
Speaker 1 (32:11):
It was that got laid off?
Well, guess what it was.
When it comes to mansplaining,in our conversation today, you
talked about confidence, work onconfidence, work on
communication.
Are those the big ones, the bigtips that you would say?
That is absolutely a focus thatyou should do.
Is there anything else thatthey should be working?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Yeah, there's this technique that I teach my
clients.
Is called alpha tonality, andif you look it up, you're not
going to find it.
You're going to find men tryingto pick up women.
Okay, but alpha tonality inthis context is staying really
calm, right.
So, like the example of melooking at this gentleman and
going, okay, you know, with noexpression at all, drop your
(32:55):
voice down an octave and stay ascalm as you possibly can
Doesn't mean you don't have to,you can't get emotional, just
don't do it in that room, right.
A great example of alphatonality and I'll give you two
examples, because one might bedated is the opening scene of
the godfather.
Right, if you watch marlonbrando, he's behind the desk and
(33:16):
he's extremely calm, eventhough these people are like
jumping up and down in front ofhim.
Right, all he does is.
And then when he does talk,it's very like, in very little
words, he'll say things like mywife is God mother to your
daughter and you've never cometo me in friendship, and then
the guy starts getting upset andhe's like, I understand why,
(33:40):
but you see, it's very flat.
It's not even when the consolearea comes and talks in his ear.
He's like very calm.
Another good example is onNetflix.
It's the movie, it's the seriesWednesday, based on Wednesday
Addams, and she's very likethere's a scene where her
roommate tries to teach herabout technology and she's like
(34:03):
typing on her typewriter and theroommate's like do you want me
to teach you how to use yourcomputer?
And she goes I refuse to be aslave to technology.
So it's like that, right, it'sgood to say as little as you can
like, answer the question oraddress the situation in the
(34:24):
least amount of words that youcan, without getting emotional.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Just calm, calm, calm calm right, I love the whole
your tongue on the top of yourroof, of your mouth, and you
just kind of like pause and notsay anything for 10 seconds and
you can bring your centralnervous system down, right.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
And then the the other one is really got.
It just flew right out of mymind but it just basically go
(35:01):
back to your breath, you know.
Go back to your breath, justbreathe, follow your breath in
your mind's eye, you know, giveyour breath a color.
So you know, in blue, out redor whatever, just to kind of
like again, just calm yourselfdown, because we don't have the
grace and space to get as upsetas we want to, right?
(35:25):
But yeah, I mean I, I think allof those tips are are are
really good and they're easy topractice and you can do it
wherever.
I mean.
Also, the other thing you cando is if you're aligning
yourself with other women, youknow, help, allow them to call
it out.
You don't, you don't have to doit, you know, you want a
(35:45):
trusted, consenting relationshipwith that person.
You know they can also give yougood feedback.
They're outside and they'rethey're observing.
So yeah, those are definitelysome some good tips.
And for the men check yourself,man.
This is a great way to do it.
Imagine your wife, daughter,mother in that situation and
(36:09):
she's receiving what you'resaying.
Would you say it that way?
Would you interrupt and talkover?
Are you contributing to pittingwomen against each other
Because that's a function of thepatriarchy?
Right?
If we're against each other,then we're not seeing the bad
behavior because we'redistracted by being against each
other.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, that was great.
Well, I thank you so so much.
So, everyone, if you would,please go learn more about Kelly
and all the fabulous work thatshe does, as well as her books,
and you can go to kellymirbotcomand that's M-E-E-R-B-O-T-T dot
com, and then also follow onLinkedIn.
(36:51):
Again, just look up Kelly,although you can go to at Kelly
A Mirabot and find her there and, of course, get her book, and
she mentioned one of the fablesabout mansplaining that is in
her book, so you can go onto herwebsite, kellymirabotcom,
forward slash books and findthat there, as well as look
(37:13):
forward to the second versionthat she had mentioned.
Right, yes, yes yes.
Thank you, Kelly.
I so appreciate it.
It was great having you.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Oh, my pleasure and thank you for the work you're
doing.
It's really important to havethese conversations because
that's where change happens.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
So I appreciate that.
What did you think about thisdiscussion on mansplaining with
Kelly Mirabot, of you, loud andClear.
Now, I know from my ownpersonal experience over the
years mansplaining has been acommon occurrence and I've had
my own journey in how to dealwith it, initially very reactive
(37:54):
, and then over time reallyworking on myself internally,
confidence-wise,empowerment-wise, boldness-wise,
even the use of words and theuse of posture and behavior.
I've learned to then tame myresponse to it and really
address it more productively.
(38:16):
And I loved how Kelly kind ofsupported that and went into
great detail around what anyone,male or female, can do when
confronted with mansplaining,because it does impact one's
whole leadership style, theircredibility, their reputation,
(38:37):
their perception others have ofthem, whether they are the
victim of the mansplaining andhow they handle it or don't
handle it, and the person who ismansplaining or stealing
someone's ideas or, you know,taking someone's opinions and
using it for their own.
So it's really important thatall of us, especially if we
(39:00):
consider ourselves leaders, toreally understand that and
ensure that we're aligning witheach other to support it not
happening.
And she went on to explain howwomen can align with one another
to support each other when thatmansplaining might happen.
At the same time, she went intowhat men can be doing to ensure
(39:22):
that they're not allowing it,whether it's the leader of a
team or someone you knowpeer-to-peer with you, or with
whoever might be a victim ofmansplaining.
She also went on to explainsome generational differences
that also affect how we'resupporting one another, and so
(39:43):
she went on to discuss whatwomen can be doing to lift up
and raise up the younger womenof today, as well as what us
seasoned individuals whetherthat's Gen X or boomers we need
to be doing in order to make ashift, make a change in how
(40:04):
we're treating one another, howwe're respecting or not
respecting each other, how we'recommunicating with each other
and how, overall, we're engagingand connecting with each other.
So it was a powerfulconversation, and I was thrilled
that Kelly provided herexpertise in this subject matter
, and I want to remind all ofyou you are powerhouses and
(40:27):
therefore, if you should fallvictim to mansplaining, you
should have the confidence, theempowerment and the boldness to
stand up for yourself.
If you're the one mansplainingto others even womansplaining,
I'll throw that in there thenyou may want to do some
(40:48):
self-assessment and figure outwhere that might be coming from,
do some self-assessment andfigure out where that might be
coming from.
So all of us deserve to haveour ideas heard, respected,
whether they're accepted or shotdown.
But anyone working to diminishyou or to make you feel less
valued and important is where wereally need to support and be
(41:13):
bold to stand up to it.
And if you should need help andguidance, tips and strategies as
to how to go about doing thatwithout damaging your own
credibility and your ownreputation in the workplace,
then feel free to schedule sometime with me.
You can go tocoachmebernadettecom forward
slash discovery call and let'shavea conversation so you can be
(41:35):
the powerhouse that you aremeant to be.
Thank you for being with us forthis episode and I'll look
forward to having you foranother episode of Shedding the
Corporate Bitch.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Bye.
Thank you for tuning intotoday's episode of Shedding the
Corporate Bitch.
Every journey taken together isanother step towards unleashing
the powerhouse leader withinyou.
Don't miss any of our weeklyepisodes.
Subscribe to our podcast onApple Podcasts, spotify or
wherever you love to listen.
And, for those who thrive onvisual content, catch us on our
Shedding the Bitch YouTubechannel.
(42:05):
Want to dive deeper withBernadette on becoming a
powerhouse leader?
Visit balloffirecoachingcom tolearn more about how she helps
professionals, hr executives andteam leaders elevate overall
team performance.
You've been listening toShedding the Corporate Bitch
with Bernadette Boas.
Until next time, keep shedding,keep growing and keep leading.
How do you respond when someone takes your idea for
their own or mansplains it awayfrom you?
Do you counter and reclaim youridea, or do you just let it go?
Do you understand whatmansplaining is and how it
impacts your credibility andleadership style?
It's important to understand.
Taking credit or stealingsomeone else's idea doesn't look
(00:25):
good for anyone not for the onewho takes it and not for the
one who allows it.
Our guest, kelly Mirabot, ishere to help you understand what
mansplaining is, the effect ithas on one's leadership style
and how to reclaim ownership ofyour own ideas and contributions
.
Kelly sees the challenges manyleaders have when it comes to
(00:46):
feeling bold, empowered andleading with authenticity and
boundaries, while also owningtheir ideas, opinions and
contributions, or reclaimingthem.
You will walk away with somespecific strategies and tips
that will elevate yourconfidence, empower your
leadership and elevate yourcredibility in the workplace.
(01:07):
Stay with us.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast
that transforms today'smanagers into tomorrow's
powerhouse leaders.
Your host, bernadette Boas,executive coach and author,
brings you into a world wherethe corporate grind meets
personal growth and success ineach and every episode.
With more than 25 years incorporate trenches, bernadette's
own journey from beingdismissed as a tyrant boss to
(01:29):
becoming a sought-afterleadership coach and speaker
illustrates the very essence oftransformation that she now
inspires in others with her tips, strategies and stories.
So if you're ready to shed thebitches of fear and insecurity,
ditch the imposter syndrome andstep into the role of the
powerhouse leader you were bornto be, this podcast is for you.
Let's do this.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Kelly welcome, welcome, welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
How are you, bernadette?
I am so good, especially sincewe are twinning and like so
twinning.
So can we just say for youraudience we have never met
before, right, right, and thishappened, and there's some
off-audio things that we talkedabout that are really
synchronous.
So I am so excited to be hereand I love your work.
(02:16):
I listen to your podcast andbeing here as a guest is not
only an honor, but I'm verygrateful.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well, and I appreciate you being part of it
because I think some of thesubjects you cover are very near
and dear to our listener andviewers hearts, even though they
may not want them to be likeour conversation today about
mansplaining.
But before we get into that, Ilove our audience to really get
to know our guests personally,on a personal level.
(02:44):
So can you share with us alittle bit about Kelly?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah.
So at the core of me,bernadette, I'm a little kid
that wants to have fun and makemischief and change the world.
So I'll tell you something thatonly people close enough.
Well now, obviously when I saythis, it's not going to be that,
but my husband and I love, love, love karaoke and my go-to song
(03:08):
is you May Be Right by BillyJoel.
And if you know that song justfor those people that don't the
hook is you May Be Right, I MayBe Crazy.
So there you go.
I mean, that's me.
I'm very curious about theworld, I get fascinated by
things and literally go down therabbit hole on them.
(03:28):
So you know, I'm really open tolearning new things and I kind
of askew being called an expert,because I feel like when you're
labeled that the learning hasstopped, like you're some kind
of guru on the mountain.
And I'm certainly not that.
I'm just somebody who goesthrough life and learns and
shares things so that otherpeople don't have to suffer.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I absolutely love that and you're so right.
I mean, until I am like sixfeet under, I want to be
learning and growing, makingmistakes, succeeding.
I don't want to ever getcomplacent.
I just want to know thatthere's always something more
that I could know, which, evenfor our very seasoned and, I'll
(04:11):
say, mature listeners andviewers in the corporate world,
I think even this subject isgoing to be kind of an eye
opener for them because it's nottalked a lot about.
So we're going to get intomansplaining and what that's all
about, but I think we need todefine it.
I think you're going to need toprovide some context around it,
(04:32):
because I think many peopleconfuse what it is.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, I mean, it is literally a condescending way to
tell a woman or somebody who isnot a straight white man
something that they know Right.
So I'll give you an example,cause I find that stories really
kind of codify the definition.
You know, I had, or I stillhave, a client right now who's a
(05:00):
COO and he's in his midseventies and he wrote a book in
1984 on leadership.
So he is constantly explainingto me what leadership is, even
though I have made a career outof that.
So things like that, ormansplaining, also can kind of
take the form of, say, you and Iare in a meeting, right, and
(05:25):
we're giving solutions orwhatever.
The man comes in and repeatsexactly what we've just said,
things like that.
But it's really a way to, it'san egoic way to rise above and
put yourself above a woman.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And more so, whether consciously or unconsciously,
diminish.
Not even put yourself abovesome a woman and more so,
whether consciously orunconsciously, diminish.
Not even just put yourselfabove, but work to diminish and
chip away at someone'sconfidence.
Correct?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah, and I I believe that it is a form of oppression
.
I really do, because it's apower over dynamic right.
It's I know better than you andlet me explain that.
And it's like yes, you don'tneed to know.
Like I had a guy who tried toexplain to me how the government
works and I was like do youknow what I do for a living?
(06:18):
And he was like no, I said I'man executive coach to high
ranking officers in the military, leaders at DHS, dot, fema, tsa
and he goes well, obviouslythen you know how crazy they are
.
And he turned and walked awayand I was like OK, I mean, what
do you?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
say to that.
Now, you had made mention,though, that in the scenario you
painted, you know you're in ameeting, yep, and you say
something, you bring up an ideaor a solution, and then a man
comes in, and now I want to makesure to be clear about this.
The man's already been sittingthere.
He's not coming into the room,as much as it might have sounded
(06:59):
that way.
He's actually at the tablehearing you, hearing an
individual say something, bringup an idea, provide a solution,
and then comes in, figuratively,to take that idea.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Yeah, and let me give you an example from my
corporate career because thatmight gel it a little bit more.
So I remember I was sitting ina meeting, right, and it was in
entertainment, so I don't wantto throw the company under right
and it was in entertainment.
So I'm not, I don't want tothrow the company under the bus,
but it was in entertainment andwe're meeting daily.
I was in sales at the time andwe were coming up with
(07:33):
promotional ideas and I came upwith this idea but it was around
the election to send out someof our interns dressed as
election ballots, some of ourinterns dressed as election
ballots and my boss, who was aman, was like yeah, I don't know
(07:56):
, I don't think we should dothat.
Two people later, a guyrepeated word for word what I
said and they thought it wasgenius.
And when I called them out onit, the response was don't be
sour grapes, kelly, and I waslike the hell.
I mean, did you?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
did you pull them out on it right then?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
and there, yeah, I said well, that's literally what
I just said 10 minutes ago,word for word.
And they that's when theyjumped on me and I was sort of
like why are you jumping on meinstead of jumping on him and
saying you need to come up withyour own thoughts and own ideas?
(08:33):
So that that's a better way ofexplaining it, I mean, or
another way I can explain it.
I don't know if I told youabout my book of 10 fables,
where it's all about things thatI learned in corporate right,
so I haven't released the secondvolume.
However, there is a fable aboutmockingbirds, because
mockingbirds repeat exactly whatother birds do and it's all
(08:58):
about mansplaining and mentaking over space in mixed
environments and not reallyhaving their own original ideas.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, Now who do you fault for that?
And that seems like a trickyquestion, but who do you hold
responsible for not onlyallowing it to happen, but then
for the response and thereaction to the response?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, I fault the systems, processes, procedures
that were built in favor of men.
That's what they wereconditioned in.
I also fault the ego, you know,because that is a self-worth
issue.
It's oh my gosh, am I relevant?
She came up with such a greatidea and I'm going to take that,
so I seem more important, right?
(09:45):
Because that's that's how allof us were conditioned in the
patriarchy and with misogyny andsexism.
I mean, I hate to say this, butthe United States is the 10th
most dangerous place in theworld for women and children.
We live in a rape culture.
So it really, you know, stemsfrom that and conditioning and
all of that.
And I think for me, I was justlike in my situation.
(10:09):
I thought first of all, I waswrong, but I was also in my
early twenties.
It should be an excuse for it,right, right, no, it shouldn't
be an excuse for it, but I wasso green into the corporate
world that I hadn't experiencedthat before, you know.
And and when I went to collegeI don't know if you experienced
this I was told the myth thatwe've broken the glass ceiling
(10:31):
and that doesn't happen anymore.
So I think, going back in mymind's eye, I was really in
shock because I couldn't believethat this guy in real time was
stealing this idea.
And they were jumping out, likeI said, they were coming out on
me and not on him and it'salmost like this surreal kind of
coming out of your body sort oflike is this really happening?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, I have found.
I found in your illustrationthat everyone in that room was
responsible.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
The leader of the meeting was responsible for not
calling out the individuals whomansplained obviously was guilty
.
People that didn't support youknow and raise their voice are
guilty and not supporting acolleague.
And then and then, in a sense,because you write about this and
I I'm curious about it you I'mgoing to say you in this
(11:27):
instance because it was you inthis scenario it's all about how
one raises that up so that it'snot taken as if it's defensive
or someone's insecure orcomplaining.
So you talk about communicationis also a real key part and a
(11:47):
skill when it comes to, in thecase of our conversation today,
reclaiming one's ideas orsharing one's ideas.
Can you help us understand howthat is?
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, so I love that question.
Thank you for that.
As I was listening to you, Iwas thinking about and let's
strip away the politics of itbut Obama, who is married to a
strong woman, has two strongwoman daughters In his
administration.
The women in his cabinet cametogether to amplify each other's
(12:20):
ideas so that they weren'ttaken.
And I think, as women sinceyour podcast is called Shedding
the Corporate Bitch part of ourproblem is again, go back to the
patriarchy, right.
It's a distraction to pit usagainst each other.
If I had other women that I wasaligned with in that room and
(12:42):
they amplified my idea, itprobably wouldn't have happened.
So you're exactly right.
I think all of those people wereresponsible.
But if you go to the root ofthe issue, it starts with these
systems and it takes all of us,including men, to dismantle them
, because 70% of my practice iswhite men, white straight men
(13:04):
between the ages of 35 and 65.
In fact, there's a joke amongmy team that I'm called the
white guy whisperer.
You know and, and, and.
The biggest challenge that theyhave is they feel like they are
not part of the DEIA discussion, right, and my response is
that's not true.
We need you because you havethe keys to the kingdom and you
(13:27):
know where the bodies are buried.
And in order to take this apart, we need you.
We need you to give us theroadmap, and they usually get
that.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
This has always been a rub for me when it comes to
men and D and I is.
If you go to a good manywomen's summits, um, there are
very few men on the stage or inthe audience.
But I'm more interested inthose on the stage.
(13:59):
Yeah, you know, sending themessage, partnering with the
women to send the message of whyeveryone should support women
in their role.
What is your take on that?
As far as what you just said,the men want to be part of the
conversation, or that's whatthey're raising up to you, and
(14:20):
yet even I think women arefailing in making sure that they
are at the table or on thestage.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I think you're right, there are some men that are
great and they're allies,advocates and accomplices for
all of us, and I call those theunicorns or my enlightened white
guys.
But I think there are some thatare very performative and what
I challenge those men who are onthe stage to do is make sure
(14:48):
what you're saying on stagematches what you're doing in
your work life.
I had Right, you know, I had aguy who was the head of biotech
and it took me a little bit toget his mind around it, but when
I, when he did, and it clicked,I always say it's like a game
of Tetris, you know, they kindof fall into place and all of
that.
Um, he all of a sudden gotinvited to panels that he wasn't
(15:14):
in those spaces.
He admitted to me later which Ididn't realize that one of his
kids was transgender, so thiswas something near and dear to
his heart and he just took offrunning with it and it changed
his career and he got moreopportunities.
So I agree with you, I thinkthere needs to be more men now.
(15:35):
Do they need to centerthemselves in that space?
No, that is a space for us.
They need to be good guests, becurious and again, be in
alignment.
What you say and what you domatters, because we are right
now in a war with accountabilityand people don't know the
difference betweenaccountability and shaming Right
(15:58):
.
So that's my biggest challengeto my clients is really be an
integrity, do what you sayyou're going to do.
So I definitely think.
Personally, I think people menneed to be in those rooms, but
again, it's not your room, it'sours, so be a good guest.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, no, and that's true, but that's putting all the
onus on the man.
Why aren't women inviting men?
That's what drives me crazywhen I go to these summits and
I'm sitting there thinking Iunderstand this room.
We're all there to support eachother as women and lift each
other up and educate and informAt the same time.
Why aren't you inviting men onstage to provide that advocacy?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably because we have
so few spaces that are dedicatedjust to us and I know when I'm
in a summit there's a mask thatcomes down.
I don't have to worry about adefense mechanism or cognitive
acrobatics.
Like, do I walk out of thehouse looking nice but not too
(17:02):
nice?
Who's going to comment on myappearance?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
That all goes away when I'm ina room with women.
So it could be a protectivething.
I don't really.
From my point of view, it couldbe that it's like this is our
space.
But I agree with you.
I think we should be invitingmen into this more.
And actually I'm doing a panelon the 19th and it's all women
(17:24):
and now I'm thinking maybe Ishould talk about resilience
yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Absolutely, absolutely Well.
You brought up another goodpoint and it'll also kind of
compliment our conversationaround mansplaining, but you
said that people don'tunderstand the difference
between accountability andshaming, so let's make sure they
do.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yep, yep.
So shaming, it's about intentand nuance, right.
Shaming, you know, I recentlyhad somebody body shame me,
right?
And it was a man which,whatever, it's fine.
I don't give credence to whathe says, but it's all about.
Oh, kelly, why are you soworried about how you look and
(18:12):
do you really think you shouldbe wearing those things?
It's like this this is thewearing those things.
It's like this this is the tone, right it's.
It's making you feel likegarbage versus hey Kelly, you
promised to get me this on adeadline and it's now a day
after.
What happened?
That is holding somebodyaccountable, and part of my job
(18:32):
as a coach is really to hold youaccountable to the best version
of yourself.
And I'll give you an example ofthat.
I had somebody who kept notdoing the work we were talking
about.
Right, we do a core purposeexercise in our work, and he
just kept missing the deadlineand apologizing to me, and I
said you don't need to apologizeto me, you need to apologize to
(18:56):
yourself.
This is a commitment you madeto yourself, right?
And I'm just reflecting backwhat I'm seeing.
I don't make them feel bad.
You know about, about things orchoices that would be more like
working with a first gradeteacher who's like, no, no, no,
now go stand in the corner andyeah, it's shaming him Right
(19:22):
right Now.
There have been some men in mypersonal life who I have taken
pleasure in shaming because theywere being not very nice, not
very kind, but that really is adefense mechanism and I I
believe that in in all ofshaming it's, it's again.
You know, making you feelashamed of yourself versus
(19:46):
accountability is more aboutrising up and and reaching your
highest potential.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
And reminding yourself of what you committed
to and what you signed up for,and what the expectations of the
goals are.
What do women need to do tohandle and manage someone who
might be mansplaining them?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
So one of the things we can you know I already
mentioned is aligning yourselfwith other women who you know
their strength in numbers Beforeyou move on from that, though
let's break that down a littlebit more.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Were you suggesting that if they have other women on
the team, they shouldintentionally and purposely come
together and discuss howthey're going to support each
other, how that in a meeting, ifsomething should come up, they
should, you know, support themand, and you know, kind of echo
back?
What that individual said isthat's specifically what you
(20:42):
mean when it comes to aligningwith other women.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, and it's having a conversation offline and
saying like, hey, I noticed,this happened to you, it's
happened to me before, as youknow.
Let's come together and alignourselves and have that
conversation.
Obviously, we know from Joe itlooks like this.
So when he says that I'm verypermission-based, Would it be
(21:06):
okay with you if I say this?
You know what I mean.
It's not another energy ofblindsiding, because that that's
what that is my man's playing,blindsides people and knocks you
off your center so that you,you can't think clearly, which
is what happened to me in thatroom.
I was a little bit like I wasshocked, I was taken aback and
(21:31):
you know my defense mechanism isfreezing.
So I just kind of like stoptalking and sink back into
myself and I don't do it as muchanymore.
But yeah, I do believe intalking to other women in the
organization and saying this isnot fair, it's not right, we
(21:53):
can't do it alone.
Not fair, it's not right, wecan't do it alone.
So help me out.
So that's in a group settingFor me.
I'm not somebody who callspeople out in public.
I do it in private, AlthoughI'm thinking about a meeting I
facilitated last week and I didcall somebody out, but it looked
like this and I'll get back tothe other piece in a second but
(22:13):
he was talking about one of thethings he wanted to work on in
2025.
And he said it's talking overpeople and interrupting and
literally there were 40 of hiscolleagues in the room nodding
behind him that he yes, he doesthat.
So the meeting proceeds and oneguy starts to give an answer to
one of our questions and thisguy jumps in and starts talking
(22:35):
over him and I looked at him, Igo, I'm going to pause you there
for a second.
Remember when we talked aboutyou talking over people and
literally the room erupted andhe was fine, Like he was fine
because I did it very tongue incheek and you know, again,
that's not shaming, Right, I washolding him accountable.
So the the opposite of that,the shaming piece would be like
(22:58):
blah, blah, blah.
I told you, if you're going towork on your goals, why would
you do that?
Blah, blah, blah.
You know it's that energy andintent behind it where I, in my
mind, I would want to take himdown a peg.
That's the intention, right.
Again, to make him ashamed ofhis behavior.
That's not effective.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
That was my go-to.
That's where the corporatebitch all stemmed from.
Was that would have been mygo-to 15, 20 years ago, and it
just doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
It doesn't work.
And the other thing thatdoesn't work is us getting upset
and screaming, even if we areRight it's.
I remember somebody was thatperson who wrote the book like I
told you was mansplaining to mein the middle of a meeting and
my response was Okay, because Iknow that as women in leadership
(23:54):
positions, we do not have thegrace and space to get upset
because what happens we'relabeled bitch, aggressive,
assertive, emotional emotionalYep Absolutely, absolutely.
So it's really, really importantto stay calm in this.
Take a breath right.
(24:15):
One of the things I teach myfemale executives is put your
tongue to the roof of your mouthand count to 10.
Count to 10 before you saysomething, because we don't want
to come out looking like youknow a crazy person, because
we're all automaticallydisqualified and our credibility
is out the window.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
It's hard to get back in an instant, but it'll take
forever to get it back.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah, and right after that meeting where that guy was
mansplaining to me, it was theC-suite meeting and the chief
technology officer and the CHRO,who are both women the CHRO is
a black woman they came over tome later and they were like so I
bet you're not going to ever,you know, forget that word again
and I go nope.
And then they said but wereally liked how you put him in
(25:02):
this place.
I didn't do anything but sayokay, okay, and guess what?
Three days later I got anapology email from him.
I would say the other thing interms of mansplaining, right,
especially if you're anintrovert and you don't want to
again, it's not a good idea tocall them out in a group setting
(25:25):
, because what will happen isthe other men will either pile
on or do something else todiscredit you, right?
What I like to do is say can wehave a conversation?
And I do it right away.
It's kind of like we weretalking about our dogs, right?
If your dog pees on the floor,you're not going to be like 10
(25:46):
minutes later correct them.
You want to correct them rightthere.
So I'll basically say listenthem right there.
So I'll basically say listen.
You know, I noticed in thatmeeting that you were X, y, z,
whatever it was.
You know, I had already saidthat and I'm just wondering
where the cognitive dissonanceis, like what made you do that?
(26:06):
Or what made you?
You know, and I don't use theword you because it puts people
on defense immediately so I'llsay, you know, I understand,
like that information was beingshared and I I had already said
that.
So I'm just wondering where mygap in blind spot is right, to
give them a little bit of graceto to understand and let it
(26:29):
click in, like, like I said,like Tetris, right, and usually
it does and they will coursecorrect.
Um, in fact, that that guy, Iwas in a meeting with him last
Monday and he's, he even madefun of himself he goes.
I, I did everything short ofbludgeoning Kelly over the head
when I was like he goes, do youremember that meeting?
I'm like he goes, do youremember that meeting?
I'm like mm-hmm, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
And, by the way, it's been subject of many podcast
discussions and many rangewriting pieces.
So what should women work onwhen it comes to ensuring that
they are owning their ideas orreclaiming them and sharing them
without feeling as if they haveto lower themselves or to
finish themselves?
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Well, bernadette, I like to get to the root of
people's issues.
I'm not a therapist, butthere's always things that
happen in our lives to informthings.
So I would say, build yourconfidence.
Confidence is not something youhave, it's something you build.
So build that.
Make sure that you're alignedwith your core purpose and your
values.
And the other thing I wouldwork on is imposter syndrome.
(27:43):
70% of the global populationhas it, so just remember you
belong in that room, there's areason why you're in that room.
And then build up your internalresilience and your strength,
because this is not going awayuntil those systems, processes,
procedures are dismantled.
(28:04):
And I would say, try modelingthe behavior for other women
that you want to see.
Right.
We'll go back to Gandhi's quotebe the change you want to see
in the world.
You know, yeah, and the thingthat I hear from the mentees
that I have as millennials Gen Z, gen Alpha is that and this is
unfortunate, and I don't thinkit's every woman, but women in
(28:25):
the boomers and Gen X, which iswhat I am are not giving a hand
up to the you know I am are notgiving a hand up to the you know
future generations, and Ireally think we need to come
together and drop our egos andunderstand that just because we
scratched and scraped our way toget to the top, that doesn't
(28:48):
mean the next generation has to.
We can teach them.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
And what have you found as to why they're not?
Speaker 3 (28:58):
I think it's insecurity and I think, well,
let me drop the.
I think it's insecurity and itis a feeling of irrelevance.
What I have found, especiallyworking with the boomer
generation they are wrapped into this.
What I do is who I am right,and that's not it.
(29:19):
It's what you do is one sliverof who you are.
You're a mom, daughter, sister,friend, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, right.
What you do is what you do,it's not who you are.
So, as they are sunsetting theircareer, it's painful.
There's grief involved.
There is who am I now Right?
(29:41):
And then add in empty nestsyndrome, add in caring for your
parents, which is kind of aninteresting dynamic.
Life doesn't come and go.
Hey, kelly, you're no longer akid, you're a caregiver.
No, it just all of ainteresting dynamic Like life
doesn't come and go.
Hey, kelly, you're no longer akid, you're a caregiver.
No, it just all of a suddenhappens and you're like wait a
second.
So so I think all of thosethings you know, but but really
(30:03):
I think the root of it is isfeeling relevant and also, you
know, insecurity, like what am Igoing to do next with my life?
Or the other thing is well, Ihad to go through it.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I thought it was maybe the fact that when they
look at all these other youngergenerations they're too lazy to
put time into, they don't have,you know, unrealistic
expectations, and nothing I cansay will help them kind of get
more serious and get more formalaround seeking a job.
(30:40):
They just want everything rightnow and they want to do it
quickly and they want to soar tothe top and expect to be taken
to the top without putting thework in.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I think that's a misidentification on the part of
Gen Zers and Gen Xers.
It really is.
The mentees that I work withare some of the hardest working
people that I've ever met.
They don't expect anything, butthey don't want to burn out.
They don't want to be loyal toan organization that's going to
(31:10):
quote unquote give you a goldwatch.
They watched us and the boomergeneration get well, it's
shutting the corporate bench,get screwed over by, you know,
these organizations that haveliterally only seen them as cogs
in the wheel.
You know, I mean, at leastthat's from my perspective I
think you know we have a lotmore in common with the future
(31:43):
generations than we allowourselves to see, because we're
saying the same thing indifferent ways, and they learned
from us.
They learned from us.
I mean, I worked in't matterthat I had recovered, you know,
$1.7 million in one market, orcreated $680,000 in new revenue
in advertising when nobody wasbuying advertising in 2008.
(32:05):
So I didn't think it couldpossibly be me that got laid off
.
Well, guess what?
Speaker 1 (32:11):
It was that got laid off?
Well, guess what it was.
When it comes to mansplaining,in our conversation today, you
talked about confidence, work onconfidence, work on
communication.
Are those the big ones, the bigtips that you would say?
That is absolutely a focus thatyou should do.
Is there anything else thatthey should be working?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Yeah, there's this technique that I teach my
clients.
Is called alpha tonality, andif you look it up, you're not
going to find it.
You're going to find men tryingto pick up women.
Okay, but alpha tonality inthis context is staying really
calm, right.
So, like the example of melooking at this gentleman and
going, okay, you know, with noexpression at all, drop your
(32:55):
voice down an octave and stay ascalm as you possibly can
Doesn't mean you don't have to,you can't get emotional, just
don't do it in that room, right.
A great example of alphatonality and I'll give you two
examples, because one might bedated is the opening scene of
the godfather.
Right, if you watch marlonbrando, he's behind the desk and
(33:16):
he's extremely calm, eventhough these people are like
jumping up and down in front ofhim.
Right, all he does is.
And then when he does talk,it's very like, in very little
words, he'll say things like mywife is God mother to your
daughter and you've never cometo me in friendship, and then
the guy starts getting upset andhe's like, I understand why,
(33:40):
but you see, it's very flat.
It's not even when the consolearea comes and talks in his ear.
He's like very calm.
Another good example is onNetflix.
It's the movie, it's the seriesWednesday, based on Wednesday
Addams, and she's very likethere's a scene where her
roommate tries to teach herabout technology and she's like
(34:03):
typing on her typewriter and theroommate's like do you want me
to teach you how to use yourcomputer?
And she goes I refuse to be aslave to technology.
So it's like that, right, it'sgood to say as little as you can
like, answer the question oraddress the situation in the
(34:24):
least amount of words that youcan, without getting emotional.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Just calm, calm, calm calm right, I love the whole
your tongue on the top of yourroof, of your mouth, and you
just kind of like pause and notsay anything for 10 seconds and
you can bring your centralnervous system down, right.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
And then the the other one is really got.
It just flew right out of mymind but it just basically go
(35:01):
back to your breath, you know.
Go back to your breath, justbreathe, follow your breath in
your mind's eye, you know, giveyour breath a color.
So you know, in blue, out redor whatever, just to kind of
like again, just calm yourselfdown, because we don't have the
grace and space to get as upsetas we want to, right?
(35:25):
But yeah, I mean I, I think allof those tips are are are
really good and they're easy topractice and you can do it
wherever.
I mean.
Also, the other thing you cando is if you're aligning
yourself with other women, youknow, help, allow them to call
it out.
You don't, you don't have to doit, you know, you want a
(35:45):
trusted, consenting relationshipwith that person.
You know they can also give yougood feedback.
They're outside and they'rethey're observing.
So yeah, those are definitelysome some good tips.
And for the men check yourself,man.
This is a great way to do it.
Imagine your wife, daughter,mother in that situation and
(36:09):
she's receiving what you'resaying.
Would you say it that way?
Would you interrupt and talkover?
Are you contributing to pittingwomen against each other
Because that's a function of thepatriarchy?
Right?
If we're against each other,then we're not seeing the bad
behavior because we'redistracted by being against each
other.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, that was great.
Well, I thank you so so much.
So, everyone, if you would,please go learn more about Kelly
and all the fabulous work thatshe does, as well as her books,
and you can go to kellymirbotcomand that's M-E-E-R-B-O-T-T dot
com, and then also follow onLinkedIn.
(36:51):
Again, just look up Kelly,although you can go to at Kelly
A Mirabot and find her there and, of course, get her book, and
she mentioned one of the fablesabout mansplaining that is in
her book, so you can go onto herwebsite, kellymirabotcom,
forward slash books and findthat there, as well as look
(37:13):
forward to the second versionthat she had mentioned.
Right, yes, yes yes.
Thank you, Kelly.
I so appreciate it.
It was great having you.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Oh, my pleasure and thank you for the work you're
doing.
It's really important to havethese conversations because
that's where change happens.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
So I appreciate that.
What did you think about thisdiscussion on mansplaining with
Kelly Mirabot, of you, loud andClear.
Now, I know from my ownpersonal experience over the
years mansplaining has been acommon occurrence and I've had
my own journey in how to dealwith it, initially very reactive
(37:54):
, and then over time reallyworking on myself internally,
confidence-wise,empowerment-wise, boldness-wise,
even the use of words and theuse of posture and behavior.
I've learned to then tame myresponse to it and really
address it more productively.
(38:16):
And I loved how Kelly kind ofsupported that and went into
great detail around what anyone,male or female, can do when
confronted with mansplaining,because it does impact one's
whole leadership style, theircredibility, their reputation,
(38:37):
their perception others have ofthem, whether they are the
victim of the mansplaining andhow they handle it or don't
handle it, and the person who ismansplaining or stealing
someone's ideas or, you know,taking someone's opinions and
using it for their own.
So it's really important thatall of us, especially if we
(39:00):
consider ourselves leaders, toreally understand that and
ensure that we're aligning witheach other to support it not
happening.
And she went on to explain howwomen can align with one another
to support each other when thatmansplaining might happen.
At the same time, she went intowhat men can be doing to ensure
(39:22):
that they're not allowing it,whether it's the leader of a
team or someone you knowpeer-to-peer with you, or with
whoever might be a victim ofmansplaining.
She also went on to explainsome generational differences
that also affect how we'resupporting one another, and so
(39:43):
she went on to discuss whatwomen can be doing to lift up
and raise up the younger womenof today, as well as what us
seasoned individuals whetherthat's Gen X or boomers we need
to be doing in order to make ashift, make a change in how
(40:04):
we're treating one another, howwe're respecting or not
respecting each other, how we'recommunicating with each other
and how, overall, we're engagingand connecting with each other.
So it was a powerfulconversation, and I was thrilled
that Kelly provided herexpertise in this subject matter
, and I want to remind all ofyou you are powerhouses and
(40:27):
therefore, if you should fallvictim to mansplaining, you
should have the confidence, theempowerment and the boldness to
stand up for yourself.
If you're the one mansplainingto others even womansplaining,
I'll throw that in there thenyou may want to do some
(40:48):
self-assessment and figure outwhere that might be coming from,
do some self-assessment andfigure out where that might be
coming from.
So all of us deserve to haveour ideas heard, respected,
whether they're accepted or shotdown.
But anyone working to diminishyou or to make you feel less
valued and important is where wereally need to support and be
(41:13):
bold to stand up to it.
And if you should need help andguidance, tips and strategies as
to how to go about doing thatwithout damaging your own
credibility and your ownreputation in the workplace,
then feel free to schedule sometime with me.
You can go tocoachmebernadettecom forward
slash discovery call and let'shavea conversation so you can be
(41:35):
the powerhouse that you aremeant to be.
Thank you for being with us forthis episode and I'll look
forward to having you foranother episode of Shedding the
Corporate Bitch.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Bye.
Thank you for tuning intotoday's episode of Shedding the
Corporate Bitch.
Every journey taken together isanother step towards unleashing
the powerhouse leader withinyou.
Don't miss any of our weeklyepisodes.
Subscribe to our podcast onApple Podcasts, spotify or
wherever you love to listen.
And, for those who thrive onvisual content, catch us on our
Shedding the Bitch YouTubechannel.
(42:05):
Want to dive deeper withBernadette on becoming a
powerhouse leader?
Visit balloffirecoachingcom tolearn more about how she helps
professionals, hr executives andteam leaders elevate overall
team performance.
You've been listening toShedding the Corporate Bitch
with Bernadette Boas.
Until next time, keep shedding,keep growing and keep leading.
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