August 5, 2025 • 41 mins
Are you underpaid — or undervaluing yourself?
In this power-packed episode of Shedding the Corporate Bitch, I sit down with John Gates, former Fortune 500 head of recruiting and founder of Salary Coach, to dismantle the myths, fears, and bad advice surrounding salary negotiation.
💥 Spoiler alert: If you’re not negotiating, you're not just leaving money on the table — you're leaving opportunity, freedom, and leadership credibility behind.
👊 In this episode, you'll learn:
- Why 80% of professionals never negotiate — and how that’s costing you 5–6 figures
- The #1 fear that keeps women silent in comp conversations (and how to conquer it)
- How to shift negotiation from confrontation to collaboration
- Why lowballing yourself screams desperation — and kills your perceived value
- What to say instead of making demands
- How to uncover “hidden money” and benefits most people miss
- Why silence during an offer is NOT power — and what to say instead
- How to build confidence and control in high-stakes pay discussions
🎯 Whether you’re aiming for a promotion, a new role, or just more money for what you already do — this episode will change how you see your value and your voice.
💼 ABOUT JOHN GATES
John Gates is the founder of Salary Coach and the author of Act Your Wage. With decades of experience as a recruiter for top global corporations, John now helps professionals and executives master the art and strategy of compensation negotiation — without fear, conflict, or guesswork.
👉 Learn more at https://salary.coach
📣 CONNECT WITH BERNADETTE
💻 Website: https://balloffirecoaching.com
📲 Instagram: @shedthecorpbitch
🎥 YouTube: Shedding the Corporate Bitch TV
🔗 LinkedIn: Bernadette Boas
🔔 LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE
If you're ready to shed the self-doubt, stop settling, and start asking for exactly what you're worth — subscribe now and never miss an episode that fuels your rise as a powerhouse leader.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
What feelings come up for you when you think about
having to go in and negotiateyour pay, whether that's for a
new job in a new company, orit's for a raise, a promotion or
even a bonus?
Do you know what the biggestmistakes are that leaders make
when it comes to the paydiscussion, and whether or not
gender issues or differencescome into play?
(00:24):
Lastly, do you have anunderstanding of the
misunderstandings of negotiationwhen it comes to your pay?
Well, according to ourpowerhouse guest, John Gates of
Salary Coach, negotiation iseasy if you know what to do,
what to say and when to say it.
(00:44):
Anyone can learn the skill andonce you know the skill, it can
be applied to multiple areas ofyour work and life.
Negotiation does not have to bea high stakes game of chicken,
and you don't have to go italone.
John is here to tell youexactly what it takes to be
successful in advocating foryourself and understanding the
(01:05):
motivations of the decisionmakers, as well as how to
negotiate in a collaborative waydesigned to make everyone happy
when they say yes.
So stay with us.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast
that transforms today'smanagers into tomorrow's
powerhouse leaders.
Your host, bernadette Boas,executive coach and author,
brings you into a world wherethe corporate grind meets
personal growth and success ineach and every episode.
With more than 25 years incorporate trenches, bernadette's
own journey from beingdismissed as a tyrant boss to
(01:38):
becoming a sought-afterleadership coach and speaker
illustrates the very essence oftransformation that she now
inspires in others with her tips, strategies and stories.
So if you're ready to shed thebitches of fear and insecurity,
ditch the imposter syndrome andstep into the role of the
powerhouse leader you were bornto be, this podcast is for you.
Let's do this.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
John, welcome, welcome, welcome.
Thank you for being here.
Well, thank Thank you for beinghere.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Well, thank you so much for the invite.
I am excited to be here and itshould be fun talking with you
today.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I am definitely looking forward to it, because I
think any and everyprofessional whether they are
looking for a new job or they'relooking to advance and salary
up, so to speak, in theircurrent job they want to know
how to do it effectively andsuccessfully.
So, before we get into that,though, I'd love for people to
(02:32):
really understand a little bitabout John Gates.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Okay.
So you want to know thepersonal side, not the public
stuff that's easy to get at.
So I'm kind of an adventurer.
You see the dive helmet behindme.
I'm not a diver, but to me thatexemplifies adventure and kind
of doing things that are outsidethe comfort zone.
So one of the big goals that Ihave for myself is a freedom
(02:59):
goal.
I want to be able to liveanywhere I want, work from
anywhere that I want, and soI've spent the last year or so
assembling this mobile officethat I can take and work from
anywhere and it's perfectlycomfortable Three screens, all
fits in a backpack, and a bigdream of mine is to live and
(03:21):
work in the developing world.
Need a strong internetconnection to make that happen,
but, and so I'm not necessarilytethered to one particular spot
I'm big, big into freedom, andthat's something I help people
to achieve as well, likefinancial freedom, the freedom
to do what you want with yourlife once the money issues are
(03:41):
sorted.
A lot more options open up foryou.
So that's a little somethingabout me.
Another personal thing is Ihave five children, so five kids
.
Three of them are adopted.
I have two biological boys andthree adopted girls.
They're all adults now, but Idon't know if it's the adoption
(04:03):
or or or what.
But the girls were harder, alot harder.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yes, I think my parents of six girls and six
boys would tell you that as well.
But that's beautiful, that iswonderful.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
You know it's an interesting, super cool blended
family and I used to think thatyou know of the nature and
nurture argument, of how peopledevelop.
I used to think that nurturewas the most important thing.
After adopting three childrenand raising them, I have come to
(04:38):
realize just how powerfulbiology is and who you become
like.
I didn't realize that was goingto be so powerful that's
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
That is what a lesson to learn amongst everything
else that you're learning andyou have learned as a result of
taking in other children.
Blending the family oh, that'sbeautiful.
I love and I love the wholefreedom goal.
That's a every one.
I love the whole freedom goal.
That's a fabulous.
Every one of us need a freedomgoal, for sure.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, whatever freedom feels like to you, you
should go.
Chase that with all of yourheart, because if you feel
enslaved at a current jobsometimes jobs feel like a
prison I'm making so much money,but I work for a jerk, I can't
afford to quit.
You know, these kind of thingshappen all the time to everyday
(05:29):
people and you just feelmiserable and in prison.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yes, well, and you know you probably know the
acronym job just over broke andwhat I'll often tell people is
it's more about just over broken.
They have such broken spiritsin so many cases that really
they need to focus on exactlywhat we're going to talk about
today and the theme that youbrought up in regards to freedom
(05:54):
.
So we want to talk aboutnegotiation.
It's something so many peoplerun away from and yet, as I saw
in everything that you do, itshould be something that they
embrace and they really justskill themselves up and welcome
it.
So let's start with what do yousee to be the biggest
(06:20):
challenges and reasons why somany individuals, who many
perceive as leaders, even haveissues and fears around
negotiating?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I love this question because it helps me to address a
lot of the misunderstandingsthat exist about negotiation.
I think when I bring that up,or when you bring it up, or even
people see the subject paynegotiation secrets, what is the
mental or emotional image thatpops into your mind when you're
(06:55):
thinking about pay negotiation?
I think most people see it as aconflict.
As a conflict, it's a riskysort of duel.
We're going to stand off 50paces from each other, we're
going to turn and shoot.
We're going to see who killsthe other person first, that
(07:21):
it's competitive, that it'swin-lose.
In my book, when I wrote mybook, I described it as you
think negotiations likestrapping on armor, drawing a
sword and marching into an arenato duel to the death.
Only you're going to face offagainst somebody like me who has
75,000 kills in my history andyou're a beginner.
So it's like incrediblyintimidating.
(07:41):
It feels high risk.
To most people it feels like ahigh risk game of chicken where
you know I'm going to put out anumber and maybe they'll take it
and maybe they won't.
And it feels so risky andespecially in this world right
now that we're in, where joboffers are harder to come by.
(08:01):
You're competing againsthundreds of other people for a
job and when the offer finallycomes, it's like wow, if that's
what I think a negotiation is.
Of course I'm going to saymaybe I should just grab this
offer and be done with all ofthis uncertainty.
I have that path right here.
(08:24):
I could just reach over thereand grab it, and I think that's
what I'm going to do.
And as I was researching mybook and thinking about
launching this business a fewyears ago, I reflected back on
all of this stuff that I trackedwhen I was a head of recruiting
for Fortune 500 companies andin that I realized that at least
(08:48):
80% of people don't negotiateat all.
They're just accepting thefirst offer and they're
following the path that I justdescribed.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Is that from fear and desperation?
What is that from Exhaustion?
I can see from what you justdescribed.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
also fear and desperation.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
It's all of the above .
So the exhaustion is a big partof today's world, where you
might have been unemployed for aperiod of time and you're just
tired.
You're tired of that in-betweenfeeling.
You just want that uncertaintyto just go away and you have the
power to dismiss it as soon asan offer comes in.
You don't want to start overagain.
(09:29):
But here's the main driver, Ithink, is fear.
So if I call you from yourdream company and I say,
bernadette, I've got this greatjob.
I saw your LinkedIn profile.
I would love to talk to youabout joining our company which,
by the way, is your dream joband then I say but first tell me
(09:51):
about your pay expectation andwhat emotions come up inside you
when that happens.
I'm afraid of losing theopportunity to proceed to meet
the hiring manager.
I know I'm talking to agatekeeper.
I have to bypass this person.
(10:13):
So because we have a fear ofloss at this step, we value
what's on the other side of thefence.
We tend to lowball ourselves atthis step.
So we take a very conservativeapproach, thinking that, man, I
just want the chance tointerview for this.
And then, when the offerfinally comes, that same fear of
(10:37):
loss hits you Like the worstthing that could happen.
After all of that, you'veinterviewed.
Maybe you've gone through sevenor eight rounds of interviews.
You've you've been in thatuncomfortable in between space,
even if you got a current joblike You've entertained the idea
of moving on.
And now there's this discomfortin your mind.
(10:59):
You just want to settle it soyou're not having to please
these people while you're stillthinking got one foot out the
door.
The worst feeling is what ifthey take this away from me
Because I was disagreeable and Idon't want to rock the boat?
(11:21):
This was something as I wasresearching my book.
I asked men and women who hasthe advantage in negotiating,
men or women, and some of themen thought that women had the
advantage, but I'd say at leastthree-fourths of the men felt
that men had the advantage and Icould explain why those other
(11:45):
25% thought women had theadvantage.
But I asked women the samequestion and it was very
interesting.
Most felt that men had theadvantage and when I asked why
this was the telling answer,they said well, men are
apparently less concerned aboutmessing up their relationships
(12:05):
on the way in.
And that led me to a bunch offollow-up questions and I
discovered this was a primaryobstacle for women at all levels
, including the executive tier.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I would agree.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
They were less worried about getting the offer
yanked at the finish line.
They were more concerned aboutdestroying or damaging
relationships in the negotiationprocess.
And so again we're back to thatmentality of it's a duel to the
death.
There's a winner, there's aloser, there's conflict.
(12:45):
If I'm going to be an effectivenegotiator, I have to stand up
for myself and I have to beassertive, which for some women
turns into this bias ofaggression, and they don't want
to be perceived that way.
Maybe they've been perceivedthat way before and it's really
cost them dearly.
They don't want to screw therelationship with HR.
(13:12):
They don't want to mess up therelationship with their new
future boss, and so they becomehyper-compliant, not realizing
there's a way forward thatactually builds the relationship
.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I want you to touch on that, but I have a couple of
questions based on what you'vealready covered.
So if someone were to go in andthey were to lowball themselves
, here they have this wonderfulresume with all these
experiences and accomplishmentsand accolades what is the
perception, how is it receivedby someone like yourself, put in
(13:46):
a recruiting position, whensomeone actually lowers their
value or low balls themselves?
How do you receive that?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Okay.
So that's a really goodquestion.
I think sometimes it might beperceived as desperation, and
that's never a good thing.
It does not add to your valueactually.
So I think it is important tocome across as somebody who has
options and choices, instead ofsomebody who is desperate, who
(14:19):
has no options and has nochoices no options and has no
choices.
So that low balling behavior isthe behavior that the person
with no options pursues.
And think about this if you hadthree or four companies coming
after you, you wouldn't see theneed to do that Right.
And so it's the evidence in mymind, as the guy on the other
(14:42):
side of the table, it's theevidence that you have no
options, and when somebodystarts to show up that way, it
makes me wonder what's wrongwith this person.
Why do they have no options?
Why isn't there a line?
The resume looks good, so whyisn't there a line out the door?
And it starts to nag me alittle bit and I start to wonder
(15:03):
where's the flaw that othercompanies have seen, and it just
leads me down not a great path.
Now you might be watching thisthinking well, that's stupid.
I'm just telling you not theway I think, but the way other
people in my role think.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Right, and so it is very important that you show up
with a degree of confidence, asif you are somebody that has
multiple suitors, and thatstrengthens you quite a bit, and
not just on the money front,but it adds to your credibility
as somebody who's a highperformer.
You know, high performers arenever on the market for very
long, now that's not always true.
If you're watching this andyou've been unemployed for nine
months, it doesn't mean you'renot a high performer.
It just means we're in a reallycrummy market right now, right
For a hiring manager who'sthinking about you.
(16:07):
They don't have the sameperspective.
They don't realize that themarket is as soft as it is, and
so if you come across assomebody who has no options,
that's going to lead them downthis train of thought and it
reduces your value.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Someone who is very high potential.
They have that resume, theyhave the experience.
The market is soft.
They aren't getting multipleoptions presented to them, but
they do want to show up as ifyou know they would have
multiple options.
What do you coach them to say,or how or to position to that
(16:48):
individual so they can see thatthere is worth there and value
there?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Of course, very good question.
There's a couple of things thatI would say.
If you're senior, if you are,let's say, the head of a
department or above that, Iwould suggest that, if you are
laid off or in between, start aconsulting business even if you
have no clients, because thennow the company that wants to
(17:16):
hire you has to lure you awayfrom your consulting business.
They're in competition.
Companies want to be incompetition with somebody or
something.
The person who has nothing onthe table is that way.
So when somebody calls you andthey say Leanne or Joe or Amy, I
(17:45):
saw your resume or I saw yourapplication.
When's a good time for us toconnect for a 20 or 30 minute
exploratory chat?
Don't say I'm available rightnow, let's do it.
Don't say every day this weekis open, every day next week is
open.
You're starting to show themthat you've got nothing going on
.
Instead say, well, my calendaris really tough right now, but
(18:08):
if you give me a couple ofoptions, I'll do some calendar
surgery for you because I'mreally interested, want to have
this conversation.
I'll move things around to makesure that we can have the time
together.
So you tell me what's good foryou and I'll you know, so you
see what's going on here.
It's a different positioning,and don't think that if you're
(18:31):
incredibly available, thatthat's an asset, because it is
not.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
And so there's that another thing you can do.
When they start talking to youabout timing or they're talking
to you about money, if you'vegot, if you've got an interview
pipeline that's full, or evenphone screens, or you're
interviewing next week, you dropthese breadcrumbs in the
conversation like this how muchmoney do you need to make?
(18:59):
Or what's your pay requirement?
Instead of saying what your payrequirement is, you can say
well, I'm actively discussingthis with other companies who
have similar roles, and therange that I'm discussing with
them is between here and there.
So you're just dropping theselittle breadcrumbs all through
(19:21):
the conversation that you have alot going on, that you're in
demand, that they have tocompete against something, and
if you've got a current position, they have to compete against
that too.
And you should remind them thatyou're not.
You're not in any, you're notin any big hurry to leave, but
you would.
(19:41):
You would do that if it was theright situation, but only then.
And these are different waysthat you can stack the deck in
your favor.
You're doing little things tocreate leverage for yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yes, that's fabulous, that's fabulous.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, I've been a recruiter for 30 years and risen
up to become the head ofrecruiting for multiple fortune
500s, and so, if it, if, ifsomebody had a question about
like, why do recruiters behavethis way?
Why am I being ghosted?
Why why does this happen andnot that?
When should I follow up allthese things?
(20:23):
I, I know the answers to thisstuff.
I've got a, I've got a map tothe minefield of all these
conversations.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That's fat, I love it .
Now I also want to ask youabout a comment you made earlier
before we move on, and that isand actually it'll segue into
another question I wanted toaddress, address you mentioned
(20:53):
about the fact that women tendto be concerned that they're
going to come across you know,aggressive as opposed to even
assertive, and I definitelyunderstand from a woman's point
of view that that would be awoman's viewpoint.
Do you see that to still be abias, or even a you know unknown
(21:14):
bias, that if I were to beassertive and claim my value, my
worth and ask for a price point, that could be, you know, high,
even higher than maybe apublished range, and I am
assertive around that?
Is there still these biasesthat exist that automatically go
(21:37):
to the B word or the aggressiveword?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yes.
The answer is yes, you have tobe.
The answer is yes.
That bias does exist.
I've seen it operating, andit's really unfortunate.
So what that means, though, isthat there's a different way you
can approach salarynegotiations that don't come
(22:03):
across this way, and that's thesalary coach method that I've
created is a high collaborationpath.
It is not.
It is not this making demands.
In fact, I strongly recommendyou avoid ultimatums unless
you're at an impasse and youcannot accept any other way,
right?
So, and that's what most peoplethink negotiation is like my.
(22:26):
There's so much bad advice inthe world about pay negotiation,
and some of the worst is thisand it might seem familiar know
your worth and demand your value.
People say that stuff all thetime, as if it's nothing to do
that.
For women especially, that's anincredibly, incredibly risky
(22:49):
approach.
You should not do this, becausethat bias that you mentioned
does exist.
It might not always activate inthe person that you're dealing
with, but if it does, it canreally damage you, and the
reason why women, I think, tendto avoid negotiations because
they think that that's what theymust do, and there is a
(23:12):
different way.
There is a different way, andso what I teach people how to do
is to collaborate on a packagethat's going to work for
everyone, and this process tendsto.
The company has money on thetable that they can throw in.
The process safely tests whatmoney is on the table, what
(23:35):
could be included.
That lets you scoop that stuffup.
And I'll tell you this mostC-suite people are leaving at
least six figures on the tablelike this without even knowing
they're doing it.
Wow, most mid-career people areleaving five figures on the
table without knowing they'redoing it, and so I teach people
(23:57):
how to safely explore, in acollaborative way, what's
flexible, what's not flexible,what could be, what's possible,
all that stuff.
And now you're working togetherwith a person who wants to hire
you to create a package that'sgood for you and good for them.
It doesn't come across asdemanding or assertive.
(24:23):
It's like you want to hire me,I want to be there.
I have this obstacle.
Can you help me to solve thisproblem?
You see how that's verydifferent than I'm worth X and
you're going to pay me X or it'sgoodbye.
(25:01):
So it's a matter of engagingthem collaboratively to solve
problems, address questions orconcerns or thoughts that
someone might have, as opposedto just making statements and
making demands of someone.
Yes, yes, now your value.
When I say know your value,know your worth, all these kind
of things, very often people arebasing that on what the market
will pay them or what they thinkthey're worth in the market,
and so on.
The true maximized value thatyou can get out of any one
(25:22):
company is not always what themarket will pay you.
They will have their owninternal economy, their own
maximum of what they could offeryou, and so if you want to work
at that company, the trick togetting the best offer is not
insisting on what the marketwill pay you, but discovering
(25:42):
what the max is that thatcompany will pay you.
It's a it's a nuanced idea, butit takes.
Once you get that and youdiscover a company that wants to
hire you and you want that job,the goal now is to maximize
what they will pay you for thatjob in their culture and
(26:07):
everything else.
What the market will pay you isirrelevant, and introducing
that as an ultimatum justcreates risk.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And it's unrealistic too, because the market value
also is about geography.
It's about so many factors thatmay not play into the company
and the job that you're lookingfor right now.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Absolutely right, absolutely right.
Now you can use market data tocreate that sense of competition
that we talked about, but it'sthat competition leverage that
helps you to maximize the offerthey would make.
So they may not be able tomatch what other companies are
(26:52):
doing or what you think themarket is, or anything like that
One of my favorite things tohappen.
In fact, when I'm a recruiter,on the other side of the
negotiating table, the candidatesays well, I've done my
research and this is what I'mworth.
I can debunk that really,really, really easily.
Show me the research.
(27:12):
Oh, you're pulling that salarysurvey.
Well, you know, I know how thesausage is made.
And let's say, you're the headof supply chain.
Right, every company has adifferent way that they value
that role, and a survey is goingto be a mismatch.
You know a mishmash of allthese companies reporting how
(27:33):
much they pay their head ofsupply chain.
But what if they value like?
In one company it's a superstrategic role.
In another company it's anorder taking process.
In the third company it's gotfour people reporting to it.
In another company it's got 44people and it's core to the
business strategy or who knowswhat, right?
(27:55):
So all this stuff gets thrownin a blender and out comes a
number and this is what thesurvey says.
Well, I can say to thatcandidate like, well, okay, okay
, I appreciate you've done allthis research, but we've also
done research and we know whowe're competing against and this
is how we value the role in themarket.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
So that is it, is what it is, right, right their
degree to of the fact that acandidate let's just break it
down very simply say thatthey're wanting 150, the
company's offering 100.
, and what they should also belooking at is the intangibles
(28:37):
they should be looking at.
You know, is this culture goingto be something that I'm more
suitable for and that's going tobe, you know, that's going to
develop me and advance me and behealthy for me and this other
company there.
It's going to be a lot moredemanding, a lot more.
You know, competitive withinthe, you know within the room,
(28:58):
so to speak.
So doesn't that also come intointo play?
Speaker 3 (29:04):
It can.
If I'm coaching somebody tonegotiate pay, I would shy away
from that discussion with thecompany that you're thinking
about.
But personally, let's sayyou've got two or three
opportunities that you'reweighing and one is super
comfortable, it's got all thosepositive characteristics that
(29:25):
you just mentioned, but the payis less.
You would rather work there.
So let's say you decide that'sthe company you're going to
pursue.
Well, I would leverage thehigher offer from another
company or the higher quote fromanother company to maximize
what this company will actuallypay you so that you can have
(29:46):
everything you want the, thegood paycheck and the good
culture.
I would advise anybody not tonot to chase.
Don't, don't say yes to acompany that you don't
ultimately want to fit into.
That's a mistake I have madeand many people like.
If you look back on a longcareer, you can find almost
(30:08):
anybody you talk to will say,yep, I joined that company
because of the money.
And boy, was that a mistake it'sso true guilty, guilty as
charged everybody, everybodywho's been working and has been
through a few career transitionshas made that mistake right,
and so you absolutely shouldprioritize the fit and the
(30:33):
opportunity, and then you canalways maximize the money from
that.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
So what are the ins and outs and what are the
differences when it comes togender and negotiation?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Hmm, Well, when it comes to gender and negotiation.
Well, when it comes to thesalary coach method, there
really aren't any.
The process that I've builtworks for both men and women and
it takes the risk out of theconversation.
So the biases that usually workagainst women are addressed
when using the salary coachmethod, because now they don't
(31:09):
get labeled as aggressive whenthey're merely being assertive.
But it's a case-by-case basis.
We can take these two boxes themale and female boxes, or the
blend of the spectrum or howeveryou want to look at it and
female boxes or the blend of thespectrum or however you want to
look at it.
(31:36):
But I interact with my clientsas individuals, with their own
personalities and their ownstrengths and their own set of
anxieties, and we've beentalking like in broad brush
terms here.
But I don't want to say, if Ihave a female client, this is
the way I do it.
That's not the case.
So I want to understand,because I've got some female
clients who are extremelyconfident, not anxious.
(31:59):
They are willing to learn andtry different scripts that I put
in front of them, and andothers who are highly anxious
about this conversation, and soI'm taking a slightly different
approach with them, butultimately I'm not negotiating
for someone, so I have to learnhow their voice operates and how
(32:28):
their personality and theirfears operate.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
And then I customized the approach so that, first of
all, it's going to be effectivewith somebody like me.
Secondly, it's going to becomfortable for whoever they are
.
It comes out natural, it'stheir words.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Their style, their personality, and this is really
important.
I don't want people to thinkthat if they're going to follow
the salary coach method, thatthey have to become me.
You will be you, 100% of you,and and we work together to
(33:13):
discover what is the rightapproach for you so that you can
do this for yourself, not justthis one time, but every other
time after, and this is a skillthat anyone can learn.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
And that everyone should learn anyone can learn
right and that everyone shouldlearn, because if you don't like
, it's okay.
You're going to be just part ofthat 80 group that never
negotiates and and you, you'regoing to leave lots of money on
the table.
There was a there was a bit ofresearch I stumbled on as I was
writing my book, and that is ifyou take a college graduate and
(33:59):
that college graduate negotiatesan extra $5,000 in their salary
at the beginning of theircareer.
There were two differentresearch papers written on this.
One suggested that if youextrapolate that through a 30-35
year career, that the personwould be leaving between a
million and 1.5 million dollarsof value on the table if they
(34:23):
didn't get that extra 5k.
Another person approached itslightly differently and said
all things are the same.
The person who gets 5,000 extraat the beginning of their
career can retire eight yearssooner with the same nest egg.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
If that $5,000 grows with every promotion, with every
job change, it filters throughthe 401k match and the incentive
payout calculation and all thisstuff.
And so if you're just startingor if you're in your peak
earnings years, it's veryimportant and I'll tell you this
(35:08):
if you go through the processand you get the maximized offer,
the company is still excited tohave you.
They don't feel like you'vetwisted their arm.
In fact, two days after youjoin, they're going to forget
all about all the stuff theygave you.
It becomes irrelevant to them.
At that point.
They're just happy.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
They got you and you're there delivering the
results you were hired to givehappy they got you and you're
there delivering the results youwere hired to give.
Wouldn't you also say that theskills and qualities that go
into negotiating you're going tobe using, you know, every day
of your career, whether that's,you know, trying to influence
even people in your house?
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
You know, this is really strange too, because a
lot of my clients are expertinfluencers already or they
negotiate multi-million dollardeal all of the time.
One of my clients recently wasactually the head of recruiting
for a company, so she had my job.
But here's where it getscomplicated.
(36:09):
You can be really good atnegotiating but really bad at
negotiating your salary, becausethe stakes are personal.
If you are the head of businessdevelopment and right now I've
got two clients that have thattitle they know how to negotiate
.
But it's like if your bosscomes into your office and says
(36:32):
you know, if you screw up thisdeal, you're fired.
That's how it feels when you'renegotiating your pay Right and
so like the stakes are just sooppressive, it pushes people
into this corner of you know I'm.
I think it's best if I justtake the offer.
I think it's best if I justtake the offer.
(36:54):
It's crazy how much emotionalpressure gets put on somebody
when the pay discussions startto happen.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
And it doesn't have to be according to you.
Thank you, john.
Now I want to one.
I have information in regardsto your book because you
mentioned it multiple times.
I have information in regardsto your book because you
mentioned it multiple times.
So, for those listening, hisbook is Act your Wage and you
can go and pick that up.
I have a tiny time.
You can pick it up on Amazonand at the same time, you can go
to tinycc forward slash actyour wage book and pick that up
(37:28):
from John, as well as be sure togo to salarycoach and learn all
about John services.
He provides the ways to engagewith him and the work that he's
done.
It's very impressive.
But, john, what would you saywould be kind of the number one
thing you would suggest toanyone listening, whether they
(37:49):
are in career transition orthey're in a role, and they're
looking to go and have this typeof collaboration, as you call
it, to discuss their pay?
What would you suggest they do?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Well, there's a couple of things that come to
mind.
One is that the negotiationprocess begins the very first
time you start talking aboutmoney, and that's not always at
the offer stage.
So if you're in this and youwant to really maximize what
you're going to get, you canreach out to me and have a chat
with me.
No problem there.
But the most power that youhave in this entire process is
(38:25):
between when you get the offerand when you say yes, okay.
Most people give up all thatpower by saying yes immediately.
So what you should do insteadis buy yourself a couple of days
, say thank you, thank you forgiving me this offer.
(38:47):
I'm really excited about thepossibility of working with you.
I'd like a couple of days toreview this with my family and
other stakeholders that are inmy life, and I might respond,
you know, with a few questions,if that's okay.
So let's reconnect in a coupleof days and I'll tell you what
I'm thinking.
So if you can use that precisescript or something very similar
(39:10):
that feels comfortable for you,you can buy a couple of days
and then, if you want to engageme, that's a good time to do
that.
You can reach out and say, john, I've got an offer, what can we
do to make this better?
And then we can meet and talkabout it.
But you can go through the bookand the book walks you through
(39:30):
that as well.
That's an easy way for you toget grounded on the salary coach
method.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Again on his website, salarycoach.
He also has a way for you toset up and schedule with him a
consultation.
So be sure to go to salarycoachand look at that.
Like he said, if you happen tobe in the process or you do have
an offer already that you justwant some input on, reach out
and see how he can support youand you can work with him.
(40:00):
John, thank you so much.
This has been fabulous.
What a powerhouse conversationwith John Gates of Salary Coach.
So be sure to reach out tosalarycoach should you need any
support from John, and be sureto follow Shedding the Corporate
Bitch podcast on any one ofyour podcast streaming services
(40:20):
and on YouTube, our Shedding theCorporate Bitch YouTube channel
, so you don't miss a singleepisode or a single expert guest
like John.
Until next time, take care.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of
Shedding the Corporate Bitch.
Every journey taken together isanother step towards unle.
Until next time, take care,catch us on our Shedding the
Bitch YouTube channel.
Want to dive deeper withBernadette on becoming a
(40:52):
powerhouse leader?
Visit balloffirecoachingcom tolearn more about how she helps
professionals, hr executives andteam leaders elevate overall
team performance.
You've been listening toShedding the Corporate Bitch
with Bernadette Boas.
Until next time, keep shedding,keep growing and keep leading.
What feelings come up for you when you think about
having to go in and negotiateyour pay, whether that's for a
new job in a new company, orit's for a raise, a promotion or
even a bonus?
Do you know what the biggestmistakes are that leaders make
when it comes to the paydiscussion, and whether or not
gender issues or differencescome into play?
(00:24):
Lastly, do you have anunderstanding of the
misunderstandings of negotiationwhen it comes to your pay?
Well, according to ourpowerhouse guest, John Gates of
Salary Coach, negotiation iseasy if you know what to do,
what to say and when to say it.
(00:44):
Anyone can learn the skill andonce you know the skill, it can
be applied to multiple areas ofyour work and life.
Negotiation does not have to bea high stakes game of chicken,
and you don't have to go italone.
John is here to tell youexactly what it takes to be
successful in advocating foryourself and understanding the
(01:05):
motivations of the decisionmakers, as well as how to
negotiate in a collaborative waydesigned to make everyone happy
when they say yes.
So stay with us.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Welcome to Shedding the Corporate Bitch, the podcast
that transforms today'smanagers into tomorrow's
powerhouse leaders.
Your host, bernadette Boas,executive coach and author,
brings you into a world wherethe corporate grind meets
personal growth and success ineach and every episode.
With more than 25 years incorporate trenches, bernadette's
own journey from beingdismissed as a tyrant boss to
(01:38):
becoming a sought-afterleadership coach and speaker
illustrates the very essence oftransformation that she now
inspires in others with her tips, strategies and stories.
So if you're ready to shed thebitches of fear and insecurity,
ditch the imposter syndrome andstep into the role of the
powerhouse leader you were bornto be, this podcast is for you.
Let's do this.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
John, welcome, welcome, welcome.
Thank you for being here.
Well, thank Thank you for beinghere.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Well, thank you so much for the invite.
I am excited to be here and itshould be fun talking with you
today.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I am definitely looking forward to it, because I
think any and everyprofessional whether they are
looking for a new job or they'relooking to advance and salary
up, so to speak, in theircurrent job they want to know
how to do it effectively andsuccessfully.
So, before we get into that,though, I'd love for people to
(02:32):
really understand a little bitabout John Gates.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Okay.
So you want to know thepersonal side, not the public
stuff that's easy to get at.
So I'm kind of an adventurer.
You see the dive helmet behindme.
I'm not a diver, but to me thatexemplifies adventure and kind
of doing things that are outsidethe comfort zone.
So one of the big goals that Ihave for myself is a freedom
(02:59):
goal.
I want to be able to liveanywhere I want, work from
anywhere that I want, and soI've spent the last year or so
assembling this mobile officethat I can take and work from
anywhere and it's perfectlycomfortable Three screens, all
fits in a backpack, and a bigdream of mine is to live and
(03:21):
work in the developing world.
Need a strong internetconnection to make that happen,
but, and so I'm not necessarilytethered to one particular spot
I'm big, big into freedom, andthat's something I help people
to achieve as well, likefinancial freedom, the freedom
to do what you want with yourlife once the money issues are
(03:41):
sorted.
A lot more options open up foryou.
So that's a little somethingabout me.
Another personal thing is Ihave five children, so five kids
.
Three of them are adopted.
I have two biological boys andthree adopted girls.
They're all adults now, but Idon't know if it's the adoption
(04:03):
or or or what.
But the girls were harder, alot harder.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yes, I think my parents of six girls and six
boys would tell you that as well.
But that's beautiful, that iswonderful.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
You know it's an interesting, super cool blended
family and I used to think thatyou know of the nature and
nurture argument, of how peopledevelop.
I used to think that nurturewas the most important thing.
After adopting three childrenand raising them, I have come to
(04:38):
realize just how powerfulbiology is and who you become
like.
I didn't realize that was goingto be so powerful that's
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
That is what a lesson to learn amongst everything
else that you're learning andyou have learned as a result of
taking in other children.
Blending the family oh, that'sbeautiful.
I love and I love the wholefreedom goal.
That's a every one.
I love the whole freedom goal.
That's a fabulous.
Every one of us need a freedomgoal, for sure.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah, whatever freedom feels like to you, you
should go.
Chase that with all of yourheart, because if you feel
enslaved at a current jobsometimes jobs feel like a
prison I'm making so much money,but I work for a jerk, I can't
afford to quit.
You know, these kind of thingshappen all the time to everyday
(05:29):
people and you just feelmiserable and in prison.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yes, well, and you know you probably know the
acronym job just over broke andwhat I'll often tell people is
it's more about just over broken.
They have such broken spiritsin so many cases that really
they need to focus on exactlywhat we're going to talk about
today and the theme that youbrought up in regards to freedom
(05:54):
.
So we want to talk aboutnegotiation.
It's something so many peoplerun away from and yet, as I saw
in everything that you do, itshould be something that they
embrace and they really justskill themselves up and welcome
it.
So let's start with what do yousee to be the biggest
(06:20):
challenges and reasons why somany individuals, who many
perceive as leaders, even haveissues and fears around
negotiating?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
I love this question because it helps me to address a
lot of the misunderstandingsthat exist about negotiation.
I think when I bring that up,or when you bring it up, or even
people see the subject paynegotiation secrets, what is the
mental or emotional image thatpops into your mind when you're
(06:55):
thinking about pay negotiation?
I think most people see it as aconflict.
As a conflict, it's a riskysort of duel.
We're going to stand off 50paces from each other, we're
going to turn and shoot.
We're going to see who killsthe other person first, that
(07:21):
it's competitive, that it'swin-lose.
In my book, when I wrote mybook, I described it as you
think negotiations likestrapping on armor, drawing a
sword and marching into an arenato duel to the death.
Only you're going to face offagainst somebody like me who has
75,000 kills in my history andyou're a beginner.
So it's like incrediblyintimidating.
(07:41):
It feels high risk.
To most people it feels like ahigh risk game of chicken where
you know I'm going to put out anumber and maybe they'll take it
and maybe they won't.
And it feels so risky andespecially in this world right
now that we're in, where joboffers are harder to come by.
(08:01):
You're competing againsthundreds of other people for a
job and when the offer finallycomes, it's like wow, if that's
what I think a negotiation is.
Of course I'm going to saymaybe I should just grab this
offer and be done with all ofthis uncertainty.
I have that path right here.
(08:24):
I could just reach over thereand grab it, and I think that's
what I'm going to do.
And as I was researching mybook and thinking about
launching this business a fewyears ago, I reflected back on
all of this stuff that I trackedwhen I was a head of recruiting
for Fortune 500 companies andin that I realized that at least
(08:48):
80% of people don't negotiateat all.
They're just accepting thefirst offer and they're
following the path that I justdescribed.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Is that from fear and desperation?
What is that from Exhaustion?
I can see from what you justdescribed.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (09:04):
also fear and desperation.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
It's all of the above .
So the exhaustion is a big partof today's world, where you
might have been unemployed for aperiod of time and you're just
tired.
You're tired of that in-betweenfeeling.
You just want that uncertaintyto just go away and you have the
power to dismiss it as soon asan offer comes in.
You don't want to start overagain.
(09:29):
But here's the main driver, Ithink, is fear.
So if I call you from yourdream company and I say,
bernadette, I've got this greatjob.
I saw your LinkedIn profile.
I would love to talk to youabout joining our company which,
by the way, is your dream joband then I say but first tell me
(09:51):
about your pay expectation andwhat emotions come up inside you
when that happens.
I'm afraid of losing theopportunity to proceed to meet
the hiring manager.
I know I'm talking to agatekeeper.
I have to bypass this person.
(10:13):
So because we have a fear ofloss at this step, we value
what's on the other side of thefence.
We tend to lowball ourselves atthis step.
So we take a very conservativeapproach, thinking that, man, I
just want the chance tointerview for this.
And then, when the offerfinally comes, that same fear of
(10:37):
loss hits you Like the worstthing that could happen.
After all of that, you'veinterviewed.
Maybe you've gone through sevenor eight rounds of interviews.
You've you've been in thatuncomfortable in between space,
even if you got a current joblike You've entertained the idea
of moving on.
And now there's this discomfortin your mind.
(10:59):
You just want to settle it soyou're not having to please
these people while you're stillthinking got one foot out the
door.
The worst feeling is what ifthey take this away from me
Because I was disagreeable and Idon't want to rock the boat?
(11:21):
This was something as I wasresearching my book.
I asked men and women who hasthe advantage in negotiating,
men or women, and some of themen thought that women had the
advantage, but I'd say at leastthree-fourths of the men felt
that men had the advantage and Icould explain why those other
(11:45):
25% thought women had theadvantage.
But I asked women the samequestion and it was very
interesting.
Most felt that men had theadvantage and when I asked why
this was the telling answer,they said well, men are
apparently less concerned aboutmessing up their relationships
(12:05):
on the way in.
And that led me to a bunch offollow-up questions and I
discovered this was a primaryobstacle for women at all levels
, including the executive tier.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
I would agree.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
They were less worried about getting the offer
yanked at the finish line.
They were more concerned aboutdestroying or damaging
relationships in the negotiationprocess.
And so again we're back to thatmentality of it's a duel to the
death.
There's a winner, there's aloser, there's conflict.
(12:45):
If I'm going to be an effectivenegotiator, I have to stand up
for myself and I have to beassertive, which for some women
turns into this bias ofaggression, and they don't want
to be perceived that way.
Maybe they've been perceivedthat way before and it's really
cost them dearly.
They don't want to screw therelationship with HR.
(13:12):
They don't want to mess up therelationship with their new
future boss, and so they becomehyper-compliant, not realizing
there's a way forward thatactually builds the relationship
.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I want you to touch on that, but I have a couple of
questions based on what you'vealready covered.
So if someone were to go in andthey were to lowball themselves
, here they have this wonderfulresume with all these
experiences and accomplishmentsand accolades what is the
perception, how is it receivedby someone like yourself, put in
(13:46):
a recruiting position, whensomeone actually lowers their
value or low balls themselves?
How do you receive that?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Okay.
So that's a really goodquestion.
I think sometimes it might beperceived as desperation, and
that's never a good thing.
It does not add to your valueactually.
So I think it is important tocome across as somebody who has
options and choices, instead ofsomebody who is desperate, who
(14:19):
has no options and has nochoices no options and has no
choices.
So that low balling behavior isthe behavior that the person
with no options pursues.
And think about this if you hadthree or four companies coming
after you, you wouldn't see theneed to do that Right.
And so it's the evidence in mymind, as the guy on the other
(14:42):
side of the table, it's theevidence that you have no
options, and when somebodystarts to show up that way, it
makes me wonder what's wrongwith this person.
Why do they have no options?
Why isn't there a line?
The resume looks good, so whyisn't there a line out the door?
And it starts to nag me alittle bit and I start to wonder
(15:03):
where's the flaw that othercompanies have seen, and it just
leads me down not a great path.
Now you might be watching thisthinking well, that's stupid.
I'm just telling you not theway I think, but the way other
people in my role think.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Right, and so it is very important that you show up
with a degree of confidence, asif you are somebody that has
multiple suitors, and thatstrengthens you quite a bit, and
not just on the money front,but it adds to your credibility
as somebody who's a highperformer.
You know, high performers arenever on the market for very
long, now that's not always true.
If you're watching this andyou've been unemployed for nine
months, it doesn't mean you'renot a high performer.
It just means we're in a reallycrummy market right now, right
For a hiring manager who'sthinking about you.
(16:07):
They don't have the sameperspective.
They don't realize that themarket is as soft as it is, and
so if you come across assomebody who has no options,
that's going to lead them downthis train of thought and it
reduces your value.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Someone who is very high potential.
They have that resume, theyhave the experience.
The market is soft.
They aren't getting multipleoptions presented to them, but
they do want to show up as ifyou know they would have
multiple options.
What do you coach them to say,or how or to position to that
(16:48):
individual so they can see thatthere is worth there and value
there?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Of course, very good question.
There's a couple of things thatI would say.
If you're senior, if you are,let's say, the head of a
department or above that, Iwould suggest that, if you are
laid off or in between, start aconsulting business even if you
have no clients, because thennow the company that wants to
(17:16):
hire you has to lure you awayfrom your consulting business.
They're in competition.
Companies want to be incompetition with somebody or
something.
The person who has nothing onthe table is that way.
So when somebody calls you andthey say Leanne or Joe or Amy, I
(17:45):
saw your resume or I saw yourapplication.
When's a good time for us toconnect for a 20 or 30 minute
exploratory chat?
Don't say I'm available rightnow, let's do it.
Don't say every day this weekis open, every day next week is
open.
You're starting to show themthat you've got nothing going on
.
Instead say, well, my calendaris really tough right now, but
(18:08):
if you give me a couple ofoptions, I'll do some calendar
surgery for you because I'mreally interested, want to have
this conversation.
I'll move things around to makesure that we can have the time
together.
So you tell me what's good foryou and I'll you know, so you
see what's going on here.
It's a different positioning,and don't think that if you're
(18:31):
incredibly available, thatthat's an asset, because it is
not.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
And so there's that another thing you can do.
When they start talking to youabout timing or they're talking
to you about money, if you'vegot, if you've got an interview
pipeline that's full, or evenphone screens, or you're
interviewing next week, you dropthese breadcrumbs in the
conversation like this how muchmoney do you need to make?
(18:59):
Or what's your pay requirement?
Instead of saying what your payrequirement is, you can say
well, I'm actively discussingthis with other companies who
have similar roles, and therange that I'm discussing with
them is between here and there.
So you're just dropping theselittle breadcrumbs all through
(19:21):
the conversation that you have alot going on, that you're in
demand, that they have tocompete against something, and
if you've got a current position, they have to compete against
that too.
And you should remind them thatyou're not.
You're not in any, you're notin any big hurry to leave, but
you would.
(19:41):
You would do that if it was theright situation, but only then.
And these are different waysthat you can stack the deck in
your favor.
You're doing little things tocreate leverage for yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yes, that's fabulous, that's fabulous.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, I've been a recruiter for 30 years and risen
up to become the head ofrecruiting for multiple fortune
500s, and so, if it, if, ifsomebody had a question about
like, why do recruiters behavethis way?
Why am I being ghosted?
Why why does this happen andnot that?
When should I follow up allthese things?
(20:23):
I, I know the answers to thisstuff.
I've got a, I've got a map tothe minefield of all these
conversations.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That's fat, I love it .
Now I also want to ask youabout a comment you made earlier
before we move on, and that isand actually it'll segue into
another question I wanted toaddress, address you mentioned
(20:53):
about the fact that women tendto be concerned that they're
going to come across you know,aggressive as opposed to even
assertive, and I definitelyunderstand from a woman's point
of view that that would be awoman's viewpoint.
Do you see that to still be abias, or even a you know unknown
(21:14):
bias, that if I were to beassertive and claim my value, my
worth and ask for a price point, that could be, you know, high,
even higher than maybe apublished range, and I am
assertive around that?
Is there still these biasesthat exist that automatically go
(21:37):
to the B word or the aggressiveword?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yes.
The answer is yes, you have tobe.
The answer is yes.
That bias does exist.
I've seen it operating, andit's really unfortunate.
So what that means, though, isthat there's a different way you
can approach salarynegotiations that don't come
(22:03):
across this way, and that's thesalary coach method that I've
created is a high collaborationpath.
It is not.
It is not this making demands.
In fact, I strongly recommendyou avoid ultimatums unless
you're at an impasse and youcannot accept any other way,
right?
So, and that's what most peoplethink negotiation is like my.
(22:26):
There's so much bad advice inthe world about pay negotiation,
and some of the worst is thisand it might seem familiar know
your worth and demand your value.
People say that stuff all thetime, as if it's nothing to do
that.
For women especially, that's anincredibly, incredibly risky
(22:49):
approach.
You should not do this, becausethat bias that you mentioned
does exist.
It might not always activate inthe person that you're dealing
with, but if it does, it canreally damage you, and the
reason why women, I think, tendto avoid negotiations because
they think that that's what theymust do, and there is a
(23:12):
different way.
There is a different way, andso what I teach people how to do
is to collaborate on a packagethat's going to work for
everyone, and this process tendsto.
The company has money on thetable that they can throw in.
The process safely tests whatmoney is on the table, what
(23:35):
could be included.
That lets you scoop that stuffup.
And I'll tell you this mostC-suite people are leaving at
least six figures on the tablelike this without even knowing
they're doing it.
Wow, most mid-career people areleaving five figures on the
table without knowing they'redoing it, and so I teach people
(23:57):
how to safely explore, in acollaborative way, what's
flexible, what's not flexible,what could be, what's possible,
all that stuff.
And now you're working togetherwith a person who wants to hire
you to create a package that'sgood for you and good for them.
It doesn't come across asdemanding or assertive.
(24:23):
It's like you want to hire me,I want to be there.
I have this obstacle.
Can you help me to solve thisproblem?
You see how that's verydifferent than I'm worth X and
you're going to pay me X or it'sgoodbye.
(25:01):
So it's a matter of engagingthem collaboratively to solve
problems, address questions orconcerns or thoughts that
someone might have, as opposedto just making statements and
making demands of someone.
Yes, yes, now your value.
When I say know your value,know your worth, all these kind
of things, very often people arebasing that on what the market
will pay them or what they thinkthey're worth in the market,
and so on.
The true maximized value thatyou can get out of any one
(25:22):
company is not always what themarket will pay you.
They will have their owninternal economy, their own
maximum of what they could offeryou, and so if you want to work
at that company, the trick togetting the best offer is not
insisting on what the marketwill pay you, but discovering
(25:42):
what the max is that thatcompany will pay you.
It's a it's a nuanced idea, butit takes.
Once you get that and youdiscover a company that wants to
hire you and you want that job,the goal now is to maximize
what they will pay you for thatjob in their culture and
(26:07):
everything else.
What the market will pay you isirrelevant, and introducing
that as an ultimatum justcreates risk.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And it's unrealistic too, because the market value
also is about geography.
It's about so many factors thatmay not play into the company
and the job that you're lookingfor right now.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Absolutely right, absolutely right.
Now you can use market data tocreate that sense of competition
that we talked about, but it'sthat competition leverage that
helps you to maximize the offerthey would make.
So they may not be able tomatch what other companies are
(26:52):
doing or what you think themarket is, or anything like that
One of my favorite things tohappen.
In fact, when I'm a recruiter,on the other side of the
negotiating table, the candidatesays well, I've done my
research and this is what I'mworth.
I can debunk that really,really, really easily.
Show me the research.
(27:12):
Oh, you're pulling that salarysurvey.
Well, you know, I know how thesausage is made.
And let's say, you're the headof supply chain.
Right, every company has adifferent way that they value
that role, and a survey is goingto be a mismatch.
You know a mishmash of allthese companies reporting how
(27:33):
much they pay their head ofsupply chain.
But what if they value like?
In one company it's a superstrategic role.
In another company it's anorder taking process.
In the third company it's gotfour people reporting to it.
In another company it's got 44people and it's core to the
business strategy or who knowswhat, right?
(27:55):
So all this stuff gets thrownin a blender and out comes a
number and this is what thesurvey says.
Well, I can say to thatcandidate like, well, okay, okay
, I appreciate you've done allthis research, but we've also
done research and we know whowe're competing against and this
is how we value the role in themarket.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
So that is it, is what it is, right, right their
degree to of the fact that acandidate let's just break it
down very simply say thatthey're wanting 150, the
company's offering 100.
, and what they should also belooking at is the intangibles
(28:37):
they should be looking at.
You know, is this culture goingto be something that I'm more
suitable for and that's going tobe, you know, that's going to
develop me and advance me and behealthy for me and this other
company there.
It's going to be a lot moredemanding, a lot more.
You know, competitive withinthe, you know within the room,
(28:58):
so to speak.
So doesn't that also come intointo play?
Speaker 3 (29:04):
It can.
If I'm coaching somebody tonegotiate pay, I would shy away
from that discussion with thecompany that you're thinking
about.
But personally, let's sayyou've got two or three
opportunities that you'reweighing and one is super
comfortable, it's got all thosepositive characteristics that
(29:25):
you just mentioned, but the payis less.
You would rather work there.
So let's say you decide that'sthe company you're going to
pursue.
Well, I would leverage thehigher offer from another
company or the higher quote fromanother company to maximize
what this company will actuallypay you so that you can have
(29:46):
everything you want the, thegood paycheck and the good
culture.
I would advise anybody not tonot to chase.
Don't, don't say yes to acompany that you don't
ultimately want to fit into.
That's a mistake I have madeand many people like.
If you look back on a longcareer, you can find almost
(30:08):
anybody you talk to will say,yep, I joined that company
because of the money.
And boy, was that a mistake it'sso true guilty, guilty as
charged everybody, everybodywho's been working and has been
through a few career transitionshas made that mistake right,
and so you absolutely shouldprioritize the fit and the
(30:33):
opportunity, and then you canalways maximize the money from
that.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
So what are the ins and outs and what are the
differences when it comes togender and negotiation?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Hmm, Well, when it comes to gender and negotiation.
Well, when it comes to thesalary coach method, there
really aren't any.
The process that I've builtworks for both men and women and
it takes the risk out of theconversation.
So the biases that usually workagainst women are addressed
when using the salary coachmethod, because now they don't
(31:09):
get labeled as aggressive whenthey're merely being assertive.
But it's a case-by-case basis.
We can take these two boxes themale and female boxes, or the
blend of the spectrum or howeveryou want to look at it and
female boxes or the blend of thespectrum or however you want to
look at it.
(31:36):
But I interact with my clientsas individuals, with their own
personalities and their ownstrengths and their own set of
anxieties, and we've beentalking like in broad brush
terms here.
But I don't want to say, if Ihave a female client, this is
the way I do it.
That's not the case.
So I want to understand,because I've got some female
clients who are extremelyconfident, not anxious.
(31:59):
They are willing to learn andtry different scripts that I put
in front of them, and andothers who are highly anxious
about this conversation, and soI'm taking a slightly different
approach with them, butultimately I'm not negotiating
for someone, so I have to learnhow their voice operates and how
(32:28):
their personality and theirfears operate.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
And then I customized the approach so that, first of
all, it's going to be effectivewith somebody like me.
Secondly, it's going to becomfortable for whoever they are
.
It comes out natural, it'stheir words.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Right.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Their style, their personality, and this is really
important.
I don't want people to thinkthat if they're going to follow
the salary coach method, thatthey have to become me.
You will be you, 100% of you,and and we work together to
(33:13):
discover what is the rightapproach for you so that you can
do this for yourself, not justthis one time, but every other
time after, and this is a skillthat anyone can learn.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
And that everyone should learn anyone can learn
right and that everyone shouldlearn, because if you don't like
, it's okay.
You're going to be just part ofthat 80 group that never
negotiates and and you, you'regoing to leave lots of money on
the table.
There was a there was a bit ofresearch I stumbled on as I was
writing my book, and that is ifyou take a college graduate and
(33:59):
that college graduate negotiatesan extra $5,000 in their salary
at the beginning of theircareer.
There were two differentresearch papers written on this.
One suggested that if youextrapolate that through a 30-35
year career, that the personwould be leaving between a
million and 1.5 million dollarsof value on the table if they
(34:23):
didn't get that extra 5k.
Another person approached itslightly differently and said
all things are the same.
The person who gets 5,000 extraat the beginning of their
career can retire eight yearssooner with the same nest egg.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
If that $5,000 grows with every promotion, with every
job change, it filters throughthe 401k match and the incentive
payout calculation and all thisstuff.
And so if you're just startingor if you're in your peak
earnings years, it's veryimportant and I'll tell you this
(35:08):
if you go through the processand you get the maximized offer,
the company is still excited tohave you.
They don't feel like you'vetwisted their arm.
In fact, two days after youjoin, they're going to forget
all about all the stuff theygave you.
It becomes irrelevant to them.
At that point.
They're just happy.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
They got you and you're there delivering the
results you were hired to givehappy they got you and you're
there delivering the results youwere hired to give.
Wouldn't you also say that theskills and qualities that go
into negotiating you're going tobe using, you know, every day
of your career, whether that's,you know, trying to influence
even people in your house?
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
You know, this is really strange too, because a
lot of my clients are expertinfluencers already or they
negotiate multi-million dollardeal all of the time.
One of my clients recently wasactually the head of recruiting
for a company, so she had my job.
But here's where it getscomplicated.
(36:09):
You can be really good atnegotiating but really bad at
negotiating your salary, becausethe stakes are personal.
If you are the head of businessdevelopment and right now I've
got two clients that have thattitle they know how to negotiate
.
But it's like if your bosscomes into your office and says
(36:32):
you know, if you screw up thisdeal, you're fired.
That's how it feels when you'renegotiating your pay Right and
so like the stakes are just sooppressive, it pushes people
into this corner of you know I'm.
I think it's best if I justtake the offer.
I think it's best if I justtake the offer.
(36:54):
It's crazy how much emotionalpressure gets put on somebody
when the pay discussions startto happen.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
And it doesn't have to be according to you.
Thank you, john.
Now I want to one.
I have information in regardsto your book because you
mentioned it multiple times.
I have information in regardsto your book because you
mentioned it multiple times.
So, for those listening, hisbook is Act your Wage and you
can go and pick that up.
I have a tiny time.
You can pick it up on Amazonand at the same time, you can go
to tinycc forward slash actyour wage book and pick that up
(37:28):
from John, as well as be sure togo to salarycoach and learn all
about John services.
He provides the ways to engagewith him and the work that he's
done.
It's very impressive.
But, john, what would you saywould be kind of the number one
thing you would suggest toanyone listening, whether they
(37:49):
are in career transition orthey're in a role, and they're
looking to go and have this typeof collaboration, as you call
it, to discuss their pay?
What would you suggest they do?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Well, there's a couple of things that come to
mind.
One is that the negotiationprocess begins the very first
time you start talking aboutmoney, and that's not always at
the offer stage.
So if you're in this and youwant to really maximize what
you're going to get, you canreach out to me and have a chat
with me.
No problem there.
But the most power that youhave in this entire process is
(38:25):
between when you get the offerand when you say yes, okay.
Most people give up all thatpower by saying yes immediately.
So what you should do insteadis buy yourself a couple of days
, say thank you, thank you forgiving me this offer.
(38:47):
I'm really excited about thepossibility of working with you.
I'd like a couple of days toreview this with my family and
other stakeholders that are inmy life, and I might respond,
you know, with a few questions,if that's okay.
So let's reconnect in a coupleof days and I'll tell you what
I'm thinking.
So if you can use that precisescript or something very similar
(39:10):
that feels comfortable for you,you can buy a couple of days
and then, if you want to engageme, that's a good time to do
that.
You can reach out and say, john, I've got an offer, what can we
do to make this better?
And then we can meet and talkabout it.
But you can go through the bookand the book walks you through
(39:30):
that as well.
That's an easy way for you toget grounded on the salary coach
method.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Again on his website, salarycoach.
He also has a way for you toset up and schedule with him a
consultation.
So be sure to go to salarycoachand look at that.
Like he said, if you happen tobe in the process or you do have
an offer already that you justwant some input on, reach out
and see how he can support youand you can work with him.
(40:00):
John, thank you so much.
This has been fabulous.
What a powerhouse conversationwith John Gates of Salary Coach.
So be sure to reach out tosalarycoach should you need any
support from John, and be sureto follow Shedding the Corporate
Bitch podcast on any one ofyour podcast streaming services
(40:20):
and on YouTube, our Shedding theCorporate Bitch YouTube channel
, so you don't miss a singleepisode or a single expert guest
like John.
Until next time, take care.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of
Shedding the Corporate Bitch.
Every journey taken together isanother step towards unle.
Until next time, take care,catch us on our Shedding the
Bitch YouTube channel.
Want to dive deeper withBernadette on becoming a
(40:52):
powerhouse leader?
Visit balloffirecoachingcom tolearn more about how she helps
professionals, hr executives andteam leaders elevate overall
team performance.
You've been listening toShedding the Corporate Bitch
with Bernadette Boas.
Until next time, keep shedding,keep growing and keep leading.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!