Welcome to Simply Christian Life! In this episode, Bishop Michael Hunn of the Diocese of the Rio Grande continues his profound conversation with Christina Rathbone, author of 'The Asylum Seekers'. Delving into US asylum policies and her transformative experiences at the border, Rathbone highlights how principles learned on the front lines can be applied to parish ministry. Discover how deep, personal relationships and small, tangible actions can lead to a flourishing community rooted in love and trust. Join us for these invaluable insights!
00:00 Introduction and Overview
01:39 Christina Rathbone's Insights on Parish Ministry
04:18 Building Community Through Small Acts
08:51 Challenges and Safety in Ministry
15:18 The Power of 'Not Enough'
30:49 Conclusion and Upcoming Events
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome back to the Simply Christian Life.
I'm Michael Hunn, the Bishop of the Diocese of the Rio Grande, which encompasses New Mexico and the far west part of Texas, and 40% of the US Mexico border.
What follows is part two of an interview with Christina Rathbone, the author of the new book, the Asylum Seekers, which talks about a particular moment in time with respect to US government policy with respect to asylum seekers, and particularly goes into what, who the asylum seekers are and what the ministry has been like.
(00:40):
For those of us that have been caring for those legally present in the United States while they sought asylum in the United States.
In this second part of the interview, Christina Rathbone focuses on how the principles that she learned on the border apply directly to parish ministry in places that are not on the border, because the reality is that there are migrants and people who are claiming asylum scattered throughout the United States.
(01:07):
So the border is not just in the diocese of the Rio Grande and the other three diocese of the Episcopal Church.
The border is everywhere because there are people who have immigrated to the United States, living throughout the United States.
I wanna thank the Reverend Christina Rathbone for her work brief, though it was in the Diocese of the Rio Grande and also for the Reverend Cannon Lee Curtis, who conducted this interview.
(01:39):
Um, after you were with us, um, and after we called Reza, a few things happened and then you ended up back in a parish after having this.
And, and part of the reason I'm saying this, and I, I know I've done it before, sometimes we, um, there's a temptation, which I know, um, I.
I know is out there to, to think of, um, these clergy who do these things, who find themselves in the right place at the right time, doing remarkable ministry as kind of superheroes of the faith in a way that's unattainable.
(02:07):
Right.
Um, which is not my experience of you.
You're amazing.
Um, no superhero, that's for sure.
Right, right, right.
Um, but, but I want to, you ended up back in a parish after having this experience, you know, kind of transformative.
Um.
Remarkable.
What, what came through for you in that time in, in the parish, in in your parish ministry? It's such a good question, Lee.
(02:34):
Um, so it was my first time being rector of a parish, um, after all these years of ministry, and I was pretty nervous about it because I didn't really know what being a rector of a parish entailed.
Um.
And in my nervousness with the help of prayer, um, I remembered my belief in small, real things, right? And thought to myself, well, I wonder if it works in a parish setting.
(03:00):
And I'm here to tell you that yes, it absolutely does.
I.
Because what is a parish? But a gathering of people, a gathering of, um, manifestations of the divine, each one different from the next, each one with blessings, each one with gifts, and each one with the needs.
And if I approached members of the parish that in the same way that I approached folks on the border, or the same way I approached folks living on the street in Boston, would the same thing happen? And the answer is.
(03:29):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Deep rich relationships between and among people in the parish and the clergy, but not exclusively the clergy between the clergy and parishioners.
And then holding spaces whereby people could deepen their relationship with each others within the parish leadership and just people who came to church on Sunday.
(03:51):
Created such a sense of belonging, um, and of being needed and of being free to express our needs.
That combination, um, and that then becomes the engine for transformation within a parish, transformation within individual people's hearts.
And once that starts happening, then groups within the parish start seeking work where they can share that transformation with others.
(04:17):
So.
The focus on the small, the focus on the individual, the focus on small groups, the focus on sort of transforming committees that were vaguely moribund, um, and op by opening them up by saying, we're gonna have a worship.
Team meeting who would like to come? This is an open meeting.
And then creating the space for people to share their truth.
(04:40):
That is what tills the soil, um, in my experience for a parish to become more deeply rooted in the divine, which then, of course has benefits, um, you know, like the proverbial mustard seed growing into the bush, which houses many, many birds.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah, not looking at the big picture, oh, what are we gonna do about X, Y, Z, these problems.
(05:04):
But instead, looking at the reality that's underneath, always underneath the big picture of this person and this person and this person, and the blessings and needs inherent of each individual.
It's all about, for me, it's all about that one-on-one relationship and then that small group relationship, which then grows.
Hmm.
(05:25):
So.
So let's say with that worship committee, it's been more or less, more about, you know, and, and that can happen in the Episcopal Church.
We have the book of common Prayer.
We can say prayer A until, um, until Jesus comes back.
And that's okay for some of us, not okay for everybody.
Um, so let's say you have that group.
Or even within our parishes, we have folks who attend on Sundays.
(05:47):
You know, they may or may not know each other.
What is, what's, what's the spark or what's the approach that you've taken to put that kind of soul work on the table? Um, and, and how do you, how have you learned to get that moving in a way that you feel is, is generative? Number one, delicious baked goods.
Right? Which sounds like a joke, but is actually completely true.
(06:09):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so that was one of my first jobs, finding the best baker in the parish.
Um, and she was incredible.
She still is.
I'm no longer in the parish, but she still is an incredible baker.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that then encourages people to come in person because everything is hybrid these days.
Um, and it's really great to have a, a.
Group of people in person.
The second thing is, no matter what we were meeting about, it was worship, it was engagement with the broader community.
(06:33):
Um, we always started with a brief Lectio Davina, which takes people out of just the brain and starts introducing the brain heart combination, and it takes.
Seven or eight minutes and it's so worthwhile.
All of us just shifted.
You could feel it.
We all shift and we shift together.
And then inviting people and modeling, telling the truth.
(06:54):
Because even if you've been praying prayer a for the past 15 years, people are gonna have opinions about that.
But many laypeople feel intimidated about expressing those opinions.
'cause they're not the experts.
They don't really know, but their opinions are just as valid as anybody else's.
Once you get two or three people telling the truth, particularly if it's slightly against the ordained leadership, like we know you like this, but I actually don't like that.
(07:23):
Then other people start daring to tell the truth.
And once you have people telling the truth, it becomes a very living energized.
Meeting.
And then the final part is taking some of the smaller suggestions and implementing them straight away, so the people.
Then the next Sunday, see what I said? I really miss having LERs, which was something in our parish because we worshiped in rented space.
(07:51):
It turned out a whole group of people really missed kneeling to receive communion.
I had a kneeler in the Rector's office, which I never used, so someone would put the kneeler in their car.
And that next Sunday brought it, and for people to see that their suggestion had been made manifest the very next week, that in and of itself increased attendance at these meetings the next go round.
(08:14):
So it's less efficient.
These meetings are less efficient because there's more voices, but no matter what you're doing.
On the surface of things talking about worship, the real work is happening underneath that of building and deepening community and trust.
Hmm.
And inviting the gifts and the needs of everybody.
The gifts and the needs, the gifts and the needs.
(08:34):
Making church a place where gifts and needs can be exchanged in freedom and trust and safety.
And I think that'll, that'll get us to the next, um, the next point.
That, that I'm hearing a lot of of feedback from, from our clergy, from, um, not just clergy here in the DRG, but everybody, um, I think this is a, a, a kind of global piece that we're confronting right now.
(09:07):
Um, I feel like there's a, there's an impulse right now to distinguish between kind of truth telling and safety.
We are in a time where.
Truth telling may not be safe.
And we also, there might be congregational systems.
I'm not saying that they're out there.
Actually, I'm, I'm absolutely saying they're out there where truth telling has not been met with a safe response historically.
(09:30):
And so we're seeing that out.
Um, it's, it's worth saying that, um, it know certainly the work we've done, um, in, in El Paso and Siad Juarez has not always been safe.
Um, nor was the work you did on the streets in Boston always safe in the way that we would think about it.
What has been your, what, what's the toolkit that you carry with you or, uh, in, in those spaces where safety feels, uh, really thin or, or, uh, it is just flat out not safe, and yet still being able to connect and, and find that truth, um, to find the bravery to enter those spaces.
(10:10):
How do, how do you think about that? So if we're talking about.
Um, actual safety and lack thereof, like on the border or mm-hmm.
On the, mm-hmm.
Um, that's a very real thing.
And, um, I think in places that are unsafe, of which there are many in this world, let's be honest, physically unsafe and unpredictable.
(10:31):
Um, our only hope really is through community.
Through the trust and the safety of being with others.
And so it's a question and it does take some small amount of courage to remain in the place that is unsafe rather than seeking to flee.
Close the door, lock it, close the door, lock it, close the door, lock it.
(10:53):
Close the, okay, I'm safe.
That's the impulse often.
And sometimes it may even be the necessity, but most of the time, if we can dare remain to use that wonderful word from the Gospel of John and remain vulnerable and lean into the vulnerability of the other, um, that vulnerability through some mystical process that I have no understanding of makes you both braver.
(11:22):
Safer.
Um, and that was again, the position I just have to keep going back to Jesus of Jesus.
I'm looking now above my screen at a crucifix I have there of Jesus on the cross.
It's an extremely unsafe place to be, but his response is to open his arms, right, um, to it to be vulnerable and allow.
(11:42):
As I said in that reading before, the everything that we, or that we need, we already have within us, allow that to rise up in the face of the other and to be reflected by the other and to the other.
Um, so that at least is the only thing I know how to do in places that are physically unsafe, which are, thanks be to God in my own life, the anomaly.
(12:07):
If you're talking about safety, emotional, and psychological safety, which is also really important in the parish, I do think that that is the work of the pastor to encourage, and it's such a good point, Lee.
It's why I've missed having conversations with you so much to encourage honesty, but honesty in love, not ripping apart, tearing apart.
(12:28):
Honestly, that's the kind of stuff that happens when people aren't given a voice.
Right then you start shouting 'cause you're not being heard.
But if you are given the opportunity to speak, you get to just speak.
And so the violence of your truth, even if you're in opposition to another, has gone away because you're not desperate.
You know you have a place, you know your voice is welcomed.
(12:49):
When you agree with others and when you don't agree with others, and that just builds up over time.
Especially what I always found myself doing was saying th even if someone said, you know, something horrible about my preaching or whatever, horrible to me, possibly very true, my first words outta my mouth and they were true.
Were, thank you for having the courage to tell the truth, because that's what we're all about.
(13:13):
In church, the truth will set you free.
That's what we're all about.
Now, let's think about what you just said and let's talk it through.
Um, so again, it has to do with the being open and being rooted, I guess in the end, in our own, the truth of our own belovedness, which for me is often very, very easy to forget about.
But I know that when I remember it and root down into it, the depth of my belovedness, the absoluteness of it, then any kind of criticism or even danger becomes much less terrifying to me.
(13:48):
That is a much more mindful process than, than the ones I have entered into.
But I have still, I've tried to work on this, but I will find myself, um, well into a situation.
Um.
Looking back and going like, oh, the safe place was back there and now I have to figure this out.
Um, so, so please do it.
(14:09):
Please do it Tina's way and not my way.
Um, uh, no, no, that, that's my way in the ideal.
Yeah.
Right, right, right.
I'm not gonna tell you about all my absolute disasters, which are part of it too.
Right, right.
Which also, right.
Oh yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, yeah, those situations where.
I can't remember the specifics of it, but I, but I do remember a few times being right there on the bridge in Juarez and, and you and I getting back through the turnstiles and I was like, that was really bad, right? Like that was not good.
(14:42):
Um, but there is holy, there is hol but holiness in those moments, retroactive terror.
It's a real thing.
It is, it's moment.
You can't even be aware of it 'cause it's just too overwhelming.
Once you're safe, you can be like.
Oh my Lord.
That was, yeah.
I remember leaning against those gates with you often in that posture.
Mm-hmm.
(15:02):
Well, and, and I do think too, we talked a little bit, um, in the, and as, as we were getting ready to start recording and, uh, you'd mentioned, um, talking about the feeding of the 5,000, um, which, which I think this is one of those pieces.
This might not have been where you want to go with it, but, but I'll take the segue where.
(15:23):
There is a group of 5,000 people and there's a little bit of temerity in the disciple's voice as they're coming up to Jesus.
Like, we have to let them go or we have to feed them and feeding them is not possible.
Right.
And, and, and it's from that space.
Right.
So I wanted to hear kind of, I, I know you've been working, um, with that text, uh, which I absolutely love and, and want to, wanted to explore that a little bit with you.
(15:50):
Yeah, I, and I, I just wanna say clearly in advance, I don't have anything particularly profound to say, and certainly everyone has already had this thought.
But that said, what is it? Two loaves and five fishes, five loaves and two fishes.
Um, absolutely not enough indisputably, insufficient amount of food to feed 5,000 people, which Jesus, uh, very clearly is saying, feed them.
(16:18):
Um, so I think not a little bit of temerity, but much temerity of just like the impossibility of it all.
And yet somehow by God's grace, the insufficiency becomes super abundantly enough.
Hmm.
So, so often I think, and especially in our culture, not enough, has become a reason.
(16:42):
Has become a barrier.
It's not enough, becomes a no.
I want to do this thing.
Ah, but it's not enough.
No matter what it is.
If it's studying a ministry on the border, if it's developing a Bible study group in a parish, whatever it is, it's very easy to say.
That is not enough for the big picture problem or problems.
(17:04):
There are problems 360 degrees around us, but in fact, if we offer that, which is absolutely clearly and indisputably not enough.
If we offer it anyway, it becomes enough if only because it becomes a stepping stone to the next thing or the next possibility or relationship with other people who then are prompted to offer their completely insufficient offering, which then inspires the next person to offer their tiny little crumb of fruitcake.
(17:35):
And then bit by bit by bit, you have a feast that is.
Fitting for all and comes from God.
Uh, it really is a question of faith, but as people of faith, I think we need to embrace not nearly enough as an absolutely superb starting point.
So when we have those words in our head, oh, it's not enough.
(17:55):
It's like, oh, hallelujah.
It's not enough.
Let's do that.
Let's do that.
Because if we get stuck on trying to figure out the thing, that is enough.
It's like you said earlier on about the border.
I mean, what a calamity.
Nothing is enough.
And so if we try to fix the whole situation on the border, we will be, we will be paralyzed.
(18:18):
But if we try to work with these people that God has given us, these five people, four people, 25 people, well then that becomes hugely enough.
For us and for the 25 people, and who knows what will come from it and who knows how many groups of 25 people you had in the shelter.
Right? You didn't have one group of 25 all along.
It was way more than 25 people.
(18:40):
So not enough is actually has become, for me, a signal of excellent place to begin.
Mm mm And, and I hear the, the other side to that.
And, and certainly like that has been true.
You know, there, there are certain numbers, um.
That I've held onto, I accompanied 83 people with you on the bridge that got through and 83, like I hold that number.
(19:07):
Um, and then it was, uh, 1700, I think 1,728.
That we had in the shelter at St.
Christopher's up until this most recent pause.
Right.
All in iterations of 25, 15 and 28, which is not nearly enough, but it's the feeding of the 5,000.
Right.
Right, right, right.
And, and, and so, but I also know during that experience, and I, I, and I want, um, kind of, he, again, hearing the, the kind of spiritual, um, heaviness that there is.
(19:41):
How do you, how do you maintain your soul in that? Not nearly enough, right? How do you get the courage to start in not nearly enough, knowing that a bunch of people will be telling you it's not nearly enough.
Um, and some people now, I think with the polarization starting in one direction, even if it's not nearly enough for other people, is way too much.
(20:05):
Of this thing.
So how, how do you, how do you keep your, your composure, your soul, your, how do you keep the faith.
I think for me, uh, this image that's becoming clear in our conversation is the overarching problems that are up here.
Mm-hmm.
And then operating down underneath it.
And I think for me, the medicine, um, the antidote to the anxiety and the fear and the heartbreak of the too muchness of everything that's going on.
(20:35):
The only medicine I've found is in the work, the small real work that is tangible and indisputable that's happening right here.
That is the only thing that allows me to breathe.
So from a purely selfish point of view, thinking about my own needs, which are real.
Doing the work, the not nearly enough work helps me live another day in hope and faith and trust and love in community with others.
(21:04):
And when people see that they will join you and you are not enough, will begin to grow.
I.
There are people who will be saying, it's too much.
It's too much.
And then you have to offer those people pastoral care, but you can't let their, it's too much get in the way of what you know is actually not nearly enough, as long as it's real.
(21:26):
I'm talking about.
Tiny things.
It doesn't matter what it is.
Gathering diapers and give distributing to them, to those who don't have enough money to buy diapers, whatever it may be, if it's real, it counts.
It's sort of eternal.
Um, and so it has a completely different value from sitting and fretting and becoming destroyed by our powerlessness.
(21:50):
We are powerlessness.
We are powerless.
It's indisputable.
We just are.
We're look at this puny frame.
Pretty much anything can slay me.
I was in bed for a week with the flu.
We are so lacking in power, but if we can accept that and move forward with that truth, things will start to happen because we are all looking for healing.
(22:14):
And healing comes through communion.
And when people see that healing happening, they will want to join you.
And so.
Uh, you started off by saying you drew the line at 25 and it ended up being how many thousand 1700.
1700.
Mm-hmm.
That's what happens.
Um, and you know, that old, um, tired story of someone throwing back the starfish into the sea, they've all been washed up on the beach and someone says, well, what's the point? That's just one starfish.
(22:44):
It doesn't make any difference.
And the person says, well, it made a difference to that starfish.
It made a difference to that starfish.
If every human being is.
More valuable than a sparrow who God loves so much than each person that you do some small thing for.
Jesus himself tells us you do it for Jesus and that has to be enough.
(23:07):
Mm-hmm.
Except when our egos get involved, that has to be enough.
What more can we expect from ourselves? No, and I think that's, again, been really instructive.
If you look at the, um.
Looking at the cycle of the lectionary year, there are only a couple of seasons where we're looking at these big cosmic pieces.
Um, and even the advent season, which we just got out of a few weeks ago, we started out Advent one big and Cosmic, and then week two it's, and there was a guy named John, right? Um, and um, and that's been a kind of consistent, again, keeping that, that, um, that soul work even in those, those individual moments that do build up over time.
(23:45):
That do build up over time and, um, and produce a community that's, that's thriving in the work.
Uh, even if we're not hitting those big horizon pieces.
So, and it's, it, it is after all the way Jesus worked, I mean mm-hmm.
Who was living in a time Oh, it was.
Worse.
Way worse than our time right now.
(24:05):
I mean, in a country that was, you know, literally being run by the oppressor, they had no rights.
No Jews had any rights whatsoever except the right to worship, which was a miracle.
But no civil rights, none.
And yet Jesus operated on the small scale.
Right? He, I mean, the feeding of the 5,000, that was a very big group, 5,000.
(24:26):
But usually he's with, you know, maximum 12 people.
Mm-hmm.
And he had all the power in the universe.
He could have done anything he wanted, but that was the way he chose to proceed.
Small real encounters with real people and real healing taking place.
That's, that's how he did his work.
So, um, I wrote just actually in the epilogue of the book, just a couple of pages about this very thing, not nearly enough.
(24:51):
So maybe I'll just read that and uh, see how it goes.
So this little book has been my attempt to do what? Small thing I can, both as a human being and a priest.
It is not nearly enough.
I know.
But that is almost always the case, almost all of the time with almost everything every one of us does, and contrary to the morays of our culture, which isue and a poor limits of every kind, I continue to believe that acknowledgement of this fact can be generative more and more.
(25:24):
It seems to me that not nearly enough is not a barrier to doing the work so much as a real place to start and then try to build on.
Of course, if our efforts seem clearly to be not nearly enough, this is largely because the facts on the ground seem just as clearly to be way too much, too much to take in, too much to read about sometimes even, and we swipe the page or switch the station and think later.
(25:51):
I'll come back to it later.
I'll let myself see.
But if you're reading this page, you have let yourself see for at least several hours, and you have let yourself feel and you have let yourself recognize, I hope, the truth and the power and the dignity and the sanctity of so many of the people on the border.
I.
Pope Francis, that great friend of people who've been displaced across the globe has said repeatedly that in response to this crisis of forced migration, all we wealthier, more stably housed people need is listen to the stories of those who are suffering, that this listening is enough.
(26:29):
I'm not sure if this is true.
I do believe though that the power these stories hold, which is to say the power that ignites and sustains and dwells deep within the hearts of every one of the people who are primarily affected by the brutality of our borders has the potential to begin the process of healing for us.
All people on the move have a lot to teach the rest of us about what it means to be human.
(26:54):
That's the thing.
Forced to confront their own fear and vulnerability as they navigate levels of hardship.
Many of the rest of us are protected from.
They've learned more about their need for hope and help and peace than the rest of us.
And so also more about how we might get there one day together.
(27:15):
But for us to learn, we must let them teach us.
And to do that, we must first let go of our terrified attempts to remain powerful and secure and set apart from the fray.
No number of walls of brick or metal or comfort or privilege will keep the suffering of the world at bay.
It is simply impossible.
(27:37):
We have a better chance of reducing the grief of the world by opening ourselves even briefly to its fullness, and then by daring to approach those who are most obviously suffering, fully aware of all we do not yet know and cannot yet see.
And so wanting to learn and grow as much as to give.
(27:57):
If we are to have even a chance of making things better along our own borders, then our task needs to involve as much listening and learning as it does practical work to alleviate whatever small part of the suffering we can.
And not for the sake of migrants and asylum seekers only, but also for ours.
We are all reduced by keeping so much apart.
(28:19):
That's the thing, and we are all impoverished.
Because the truth of life revealed in the broken places, which is to say the truth of hope and of need and of love is as essential to those of us who live in comfort as it is to those who do not.
Yet, this isn't as easy as it sounds, even if we do honestly desire to help, help make the world a better place.
(28:45):
Spending time with individuals is a slow, pitifully local way to do it.
The truth is that I often felt useless walking over the bridge into Juarez every day with no plan beyond class for the kids, and most days, a walk up to the checkpoint and it's accompanying, disempowering, deflating, sometimes enraging, walk back down again.
(29:08):
Why am I doing this? I'd ask, what is the point? The questions still feel very real, even all this time later, and I find myself answering them again the way I always did.
I.
Because in this way I share at least a little in the suffering and real powerlessness of the people and somehow leaning into that, the action itself.
(29:33):
I mean the act of leaning in draws me into the power of God, which only those who know their own powerlessness seem to have access to.
And with this power, what I was able to write this book perhaps, and you have been able to read it.
And from here, who knows? One thing I'm certain about the border is everywhere in our country today, its effects and also its people, families from the street by the Paso del Norte Bridge are right now making lives in the big cities, small towns and rural communities of every state of this country.
(30:12):
If you choose, it would be simple to find ways to connect with them, but what good would that do? I hear you say it's not enough.
And I know, believe me, I know how you feel.
But then I remember not enough is better than nothing.
Not enough.
Once accepted, keeps us going and leads us on.
(30:34):
Not enough in the end, draws us towards each other in love and awareness of our mutual need.
And when that happens, well, when that happens, you will know.
Well, Tina, thank you so much.
Thank you so much for the time.
Um, and so I also want this is, um, the plug that we'll put for multiple points.
(30:59):
You're gonna be with us in person, um, in Albuquerque on, um.
The 16th March.
March 16th and 15th, I think.
Yeah.
So, okay, we'll edit that out.
So you're gonna be with us in person, um, at the Cathedral for a reading of your new book, the Asylum Seekers, which comes out on March 18th.
(31:20):
Um, anywhere books are sold.
Um.
And, uh, you'll be, we'll be doing a reading and a bit of a panel discussion.
This is a victory lap in some ways for RGBM, um, and the work that we've done, particularly with asylum seekers since 2019.
And so, um, Reza and I and Tina will be there, um, at the Cathedral at 5:00 PM on the evening of the 15th, um, to talk about what this experience has been, how it's grown, how it got started, uh, some of the philosophy underlying the ministry, and then, um.
(31:52):
And then you'll be preaching at the 11:00 AM am service at the Cathedral of St.
John on the 16th.
So we will be up in Albuquerque, in person.
Um, if you want more of this conversation.
Um, and on that Saturday night particularly.
So if any clergy here or hearing it wanna dive deeper, uh, you can come see us there.
We'd love to have that conversation.
So Tina, thank you so much.
(32:13):
Thank you.
Um, you always have a place here.
Uh, you always got a home here.
Thank you.
Anytime you wanna come out, we're happy to have you.
Welcome back to the Simply Christian Life.
I'm Michael Hunn, the Bishop of the Diocese of the Rio Grande, which encompasses New Mexico and the far west part of Texas, and 40% of the US Mexico border.
What follows is part two of an interview with Christina Rathbone, the author of the new book, the Asylum Seekers, which talks about a particular moment in time with respect to US government policy with respect to asylum seekers, and particularly goes into what, who the asylum seekers are and what the ministry has been like.
(00:40):
For those of us that have been caring for those legally present in the United States while they sought asylum in the United States.
In this second part of the interview, Christina Rathbone focuses on how the principles that she learned on the border apply directly to parish ministry in places that are not on the border, because the reality is that there are migrants and people who are claiming asylum scattered throughout the United States.
(01:07):
So the border is not just in the diocese of the Rio Grande and the other three diocese of the Episcopal Church.
The border is everywhere because there are people who have immigrated to the United States, living throughout the United States.
I wanna thank the Reverend Christina Rathbone for her work brief, though it was in the Diocese of the Rio Grande and also for the Reverend Cannon Lee Curtis, who conducted this interview.
(01:39):
Um, after you were with us, um, and after we called Reza, a few things happened and then you ended up back in a parish after having this.
And, and part of the reason I'm saying this, and I, I know I've done it before, sometimes we, um, there's a temptation, which I know, um, I.
I know is out there to, to think of, um, these clergy who do these things, who find themselves in the right place at the right time, doing remarkable ministry as kind of superheroes of the faith in a way that's unattainable.
(02:07):
Right.
Um, which is not my experience of you.
You're amazing.
Um, no superhero, that's for sure.
Right, right, right.
Um, but, but I want to, you ended up back in a parish after having this experience, you know, kind of transformative.
Um.
Remarkable.
What, what came through for you in that time in, in the parish, in in your parish ministry? It's such a good question, Lee.
(02:34):
Um, so it was my first time being rector of a parish, um, after all these years of ministry, and I was pretty nervous about it because I didn't really know what being a rector of a parish entailed.
Um.
And in my nervousness with the help of prayer, um, I remembered my belief in small, real things, right? And thought to myself, well, I wonder if it works in a parish setting.
(03:00):
And I'm here to tell you that yes, it absolutely does.
I.
Because what is a parish? But a gathering of people, a gathering of, um, manifestations of the divine, each one different from the next, each one with blessings, each one with gifts, and each one with the needs.
And if I approached members of the parish that in the same way that I approached folks on the border, or the same way I approached folks living on the street in Boston, would the same thing happen? And the answer is.
(03:29):
Absolutely.
Yes.
Deep rich relationships between and among people in the parish and the clergy, but not exclusively the clergy between the clergy and parishioners.
And then holding spaces whereby people could deepen their relationship with each others within the parish leadership and just people who came to church on Sunday.
(03:51):
Created such a sense of belonging, um, and of being needed and of being free to express our needs.
That combination, um, and that then becomes the engine for transformation within a parish, transformation within individual people's hearts.
And once that starts happening, then groups within the parish start seeking work where they can share that transformation with others.
(04:17):
So.
The focus on the small, the focus on the individual, the focus on small groups, the focus on sort of transforming committees that were vaguely moribund, um, and op by opening them up by saying, we're gonna have a worship.
Team meeting who would like to come? This is an open meeting.
And then creating the space for people to share their truth.
(04:40):
That is what tills the soil, um, in my experience for a parish to become more deeply rooted in the divine, which then, of course has benefits, um, you know, like the proverbial mustard seed growing into the bush, which houses many, many birds.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah, not looking at the big picture, oh, what are we gonna do about X, Y, Z, these problems.
(05:04):
But instead, looking at the reality that's underneath, always underneath the big picture of this person and this person and this person, and the blessings and needs inherent of each individual.
It's all about, for me, it's all about that one-on-one relationship and then that small group relationship, which then grows.
Hmm.
(05:25):
So.
So let's say with that worship committee, it's been more or less, more about, you know, and, and that can happen in the Episcopal Church.
We have the book of common Prayer.
We can say prayer A until, um, until Jesus comes back.
And that's okay for some of us, not okay for everybody.
Um, so let's say you have that group.
Or even within our parishes, we have folks who attend on Sundays.
(05:47):
You know, they may or may not know each other.
What is, what's, what's the spark or what's the approach that you've taken to put that kind of soul work on the table? Um, and, and how do you, how have you learned to get that moving in a way that you feel is, is generative? Number one, delicious baked goods.
Right? Which sounds like a joke, but is actually completely true.
(06:09):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so that was one of my first jobs, finding the best baker in the parish.
Um, and she was incredible.
She still is.
I'm no longer in the parish, but she still is an incredible baker.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that then encourages people to come in person because everything is hybrid these days.
Um, and it's really great to have a, a.
Group of people in person.
The second thing is, no matter what we were meeting about, it was worship, it was engagement with the broader community.
(06:33):
Um, we always started with a brief Lectio Davina, which takes people out of just the brain and starts introducing the brain heart combination, and it takes.
Seven or eight minutes and it's so worthwhile.
All of us just shifted.
You could feel it.
We all shift and we shift together.
And then inviting people and modeling, telling the truth.
(06:54):
Because even if you've been praying prayer a for the past 15 years, people are gonna have opinions about that.
But many laypeople feel intimidated about expressing those opinions.
'cause they're not the experts.
They don't really know, but their opinions are just as valid as anybody else's.
Once you get two or three people telling the truth, particularly if it's slightly against the ordained leadership, like we know you like this, but I actually don't like that.
(07:23):
Then other people start daring to tell the truth.
And once you have people telling the truth, it becomes a very living energized.
Meeting.
And then the final part is taking some of the smaller suggestions and implementing them straight away, so the people.
Then the next Sunday, see what I said? I really miss having LERs, which was something in our parish because we worshiped in rented space.
(07:51):
It turned out a whole group of people really missed kneeling to receive communion.
I had a kneeler in the Rector's office, which I never used, so someone would put the kneeler in their car.
And that next Sunday brought it, and for people to see that their suggestion had been made manifest the very next week, that in and of itself increased attendance at these meetings the next go round.
(08:14):
So it's less efficient.
These meetings are less efficient because there's more voices, but no matter what you're doing.
On the surface of things talking about worship, the real work is happening underneath that of building and deepening community and trust.
Hmm.
And inviting the gifts and the needs of everybody.
The gifts and the needs, the gifts and the needs.
(08:34):
Making church a place where gifts and needs can be exchanged in freedom and trust and safety.
And I think that'll, that'll get us to the next, um, the next point.
That, that I'm hearing a lot of of feedback from, from our clergy, from, um, not just clergy here in the DRG, but everybody, um, I think this is a, a, a kind of global piece that we're confronting right now.
(09:07):
Um, I feel like there's a, there's an impulse right now to distinguish between kind of truth telling and safety.
We are in a time where.
Truth telling may not be safe.
And we also, there might be congregational systems.
I'm not saying that they're out there.
Actually, I'm, I'm absolutely saying they're out there where truth telling has not been met with a safe response historically.
(09:30):
And so we're seeing that out.
Um, it's, it's worth saying that, um, it know certainly the work we've done, um, in, in El Paso and Siad Juarez has not always been safe.
Um, nor was the work you did on the streets in Boston always safe in the way that we would think about it.
What has been your, what, what's the toolkit that you carry with you or, uh, in, in those spaces where safety feels, uh, really thin or, or, uh, it is just flat out not safe, and yet still being able to connect and, and find that truth, um, to find the bravery to enter those spaces.
(10:10):
How do, how do you think about that? So if we're talking about.
Um, actual safety and lack thereof, like on the border or mm-hmm.
On the, mm-hmm.
Um, that's a very real thing.
And, um, I think in places that are unsafe, of which there are many in this world, let's be honest, physically unsafe and unpredictable.
(10:31):
Um, our only hope really is through community.
Through the trust and the safety of being with others.
And so it's a question and it does take some small amount of courage to remain in the place that is unsafe rather than seeking to flee.
Close the door, lock it, close the door, lock it, close the door, lock it.
(10:53):
Close the, okay, I'm safe.
That's the impulse often.
And sometimes it may even be the necessity, but most of the time, if we can dare remain to use that wonderful word from the Gospel of John and remain vulnerable and lean into the vulnerability of the other, um, that vulnerability through some mystical process that I have no understanding of makes you both braver.
(11:22):
Safer.
Um, and that was again, the position I just have to keep going back to Jesus of Jesus.
I'm looking now above my screen at a crucifix I have there of Jesus on the cross.
It's an extremely unsafe place to be, but his response is to open his arms, right, um, to it to be vulnerable and allow.
(11:42):
As I said in that reading before, the everything that we, or that we need, we already have within us, allow that to rise up in the face of the other and to be reflected by the other and to the other.
Um, so that at least is the only thing I know how to do in places that are physically unsafe, which are, thanks be to God in my own life, the anomaly.
(12:07):
If you're talking about safety, emotional, and psychological safety, which is also really important in the parish, I do think that that is the work of the pastor to encourage, and it's such a good point, Lee.
It's why I've missed having conversations with you so much to encourage honesty, but honesty in love, not ripping apart, tearing apart.
(12:28):
Honestly, that's the kind of stuff that happens when people aren't given a voice.
Right then you start shouting 'cause you're not being heard.
But if you are given the opportunity to speak, you get to just speak.
And so the violence of your truth, even if you're in opposition to another, has gone away because you're not desperate.
You know you have a place, you know your voice is welcomed.
(12:49):
When you agree with others and when you don't agree with others, and that just builds up over time.
Especially what I always found myself doing was saying th even if someone said, you know, something horrible about my preaching or whatever, horrible to me, possibly very true, my first words outta my mouth and they were true.
Were, thank you for having the courage to tell the truth, because that's what we're all about.
(13:13):
In church, the truth will set you free.
That's what we're all about.
Now, let's think about what you just said and let's talk it through.
Um, so again, it has to do with the being open and being rooted, I guess in the end, in our own, the truth of our own belovedness, which for me is often very, very easy to forget about.
But I know that when I remember it and root down into it, the depth of my belovedness, the absoluteness of it, then any kind of criticism or even danger becomes much less terrifying to me.
(13:48):
That is a much more mindful process than, than the ones I have entered into.
But I have still, I've tried to work on this, but I will find myself, um, well into a situation.
Um.
Looking back and going like, oh, the safe place was back there and now I have to figure this out.
Um, so, so please do it.
(14:09):
Please do it Tina's way and not my way.
Um, uh, no, no, that, that's my way in the ideal.
Yeah.
Right, right, right.
I'm not gonna tell you about all my absolute disasters, which are part of it too.
Right, right.
Which also, right.
Oh yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, yeah, those situations where.
I can't remember the specifics of it, but I, but I do remember a few times being right there on the bridge in Juarez and, and you and I getting back through the turnstiles and I was like, that was really bad, right? Like that was not good.
(14:42):
Um, but there is holy, there is hol but holiness in those moments, retroactive terror.
It's a real thing.
It is, it's moment.
You can't even be aware of it 'cause it's just too overwhelming.
Once you're safe, you can be like.
Oh my Lord.
That was, yeah.
I remember leaning against those gates with you often in that posture.
Mm-hmm.
(15:02):
Well, and, and I do think too, we talked a little bit, um, in the, and as, as we were getting ready to start recording and, uh, you'd mentioned, um, talking about the feeding of the 5,000, um, which, which I think this is one of those pieces.
This might not have been where you want to go with it, but, but I'll take the segue where.
(15:23):
There is a group of 5,000 people and there's a little bit of temerity in the disciple's voice as they're coming up to Jesus.
Like, we have to let them go or we have to feed them and feeding them is not possible.
Right.
And, and, and it's from that space.
Right.
So I wanted to hear kind of, I, I know you've been working, um, with that text, uh, which I absolutely love and, and want to, wanted to explore that a little bit with you.
(15:50):
Yeah, I, and I, I just wanna say clearly in advance, I don't have anything particularly profound to say, and certainly everyone has already had this thought.
But that said, what is it? Two loaves and five fishes, five loaves and two fishes.
Um, absolutely not enough indisputably, insufficient amount of food to feed 5,000 people, which Jesus, uh, very clearly is saying, feed them.
(16:18):
Um, so I think not a little bit of temerity, but much temerity of just like the impossibility of it all.
And yet somehow by God's grace, the insufficiency becomes super abundantly enough.
Hmm.
So, so often I think, and especially in our culture, not enough, has become a reason.
(16:42):
Has become a barrier.
It's not enough, becomes a no.
I want to do this thing.
Ah, but it's not enough.
No matter what it is.
If it's studying a ministry on the border, if it's developing a Bible study group in a parish, whatever it is, it's very easy to say.
That is not enough for the big picture problem or problems.
(17:04):
There are problems 360 degrees around us, but in fact, if we offer that, which is absolutely clearly and indisputably not enough.
If we offer it anyway, it becomes enough if only because it becomes a stepping stone to the next thing or the next possibility or relationship with other people who then are prompted to offer their completely insufficient offering, which then inspires the next person to offer their tiny little crumb of fruitcake.
(17:35):
And then bit by bit by bit, you have a feast that is.
Fitting for all and comes from God.
Uh, it really is a question of faith, but as people of faith, I think we need to embrace not nearly enough as an absolutely superb starting point.
So when we have those words in our head, oh, it's not enough.
(17:55):
It's like, oh, hallelujah.
It's not enough.
Let's do that.
Let's do that.
Because if we get stuck on trying to figure out the thing, that is enough.
It's like you said earlier on about the border.
I mean, what a calamity.
Nothing is enough.
And so if we try to fix the whole situation on the border, we will be, we will be paralyzed.
(18:18):
But if we try to work with these people that God has given us, these five people, four people, 25 people, well then that becomes hugely enough.
For us and for the 25 people, and who knows what will come from it and who knows how many groups of 25 people you had in the shelter.
Right? You didn't have one group of 25 all along.
It was way more than 25 people.
(18:40):
So not enough is actually has become, for me, a signal of excellent place to begin.
Mm mm And, and I hear the, the other side to that.
And, and certainly like that has been true.
You know, there, there are certain numbers, um.
That I've held onto, I accompanied 83 people with you on the bridge that got through and 83, like I hold that number.
(19:07):
Um, and then it was, uh, 1700, I think 1,728.
That we had in the shelter at St.
Christopher's up until this most recent pause.
Right.
All in iterations of 25, 15 and 28, which is not nearly enough, but it's the feeding of the 5,000.
Right.
Right, right, right.
And, and, and so, but I also know during that experience, and I, I, and I want, um, kind of, he, again, hearing the, the kind of spiritual, um, heaviness that there is.
(19:41):
How do you, how do you maintain your soul in that? Not nearly enough, right? How do you get the courage to start in not nearly enough, knowing that a bunch of people will be telling you it's not nearly enough.
Um, and some people now, I think with the polarization starting in one direction, even if it's not nearly enough for other people, is way too much.
(20:05):
Of this thing.
So how, how do you, how do you keep your, your composure, your soul, your, how do you keep the faith.
I think for me, uh, this image that's becoming clear in our conversation is the overarching problems that are up here.
Mm-hmm.
And then operating down underneath it.
And I think for me, the medicine, um, the antidote to the anxiety and the fear and the heartbreak of the too muchness of everything that's going on.
(20:35):
The only medicine I've found is in the work, the small real work that is tangible and indisputable that's happening right here.
That is the only thing that allows me to breathe.
So from a purely selfish point of view, thinking about my own needs, which are real.
Doing the work, the not nearly enough work helps me live another day in hope and faith and trust and love in community with others.
(21:04):
And when people see that they will join you and you are not enough, will begin to grow.
I.
There are people who will be saying, it's too much.
It's too much.
And then you have to offer those people pastoral care, but you can't let their, it's too much get in the way of what you know is actually not nearly enough, as long as it's real.
(21:26):
I'm talking about.
Tiny things.
It doesn't matter what it is.
Gathering diapers and give distributing to them, to those who don't have enough money to buy diapers, whatever it may be, if it's real, it counts.
It's sort of eternal.
Um, and so it has a completely different value from sitting and fretting and becoming destroyed by our powerlessness.
(21:50):
We are powerlessness.
We are powerless.
It's indisputable.
We just are.
We're look at this puny frame.
Pretty much anything can slay me.
I was in bed for a week with the flu.
We are so lacking in power, but if we can accept that and move forward with that truth, things will start to happen because we are all looking for healing.
(22:14):
And healing comes through communion.
And when people see that healing happening, they will want to join you.
And so.
Uh, you started off by saying you drew the line at 25 and it ended up being how many thousand 1700.
1700.
Mm-hmm.
That's what happens.
Um, and you know, that old, um, tired story of someone throwing back the starfish into the sea, they've all been washed up on the beach and someone says, well, what's the point? That's just one starfish.
(22:44):
It doesn't make any difference.
And the person says, well, it made a difference to that starfish.
It made a difference to that starfish.
If every human being is.
More valuable than a sparrow who God loves so much than each person that you do some small thing for.
Jesus himself tells us you do it for Jesus and that has to be enough.
(23:07):
Mm-hmm.
Except when our egos get involved, that has to be enough.
What more can we expect from ourselves? No, and I think that's, again, been really instructive.
If you look at the, um.
Looking at the cycle of the lectionary year, there are only a couple of seasons where we're looking at these big cosmic pieces.
Um, and even the advent season, which we just got out of a few weeks ago, we started out Advent one big and Cosmic, and then week two it's, and there was a guy named John, right? Um, and um, and that's been a kind of consistent, again, keeping that, that, um, that soul work even in those, those individual moments that do build up over time.
(23:45):
That do build up over time and, um, and produce a community that's, that's thriving in the work.
Uh, even if we're not hitting those big horizon pieces.
So, and it's, it, it is after all the way Jesus worked, I mean mm-hmm.
Who was living in a time Oh, it was.
Worse.
Way worse than our time right now.
(24:05):
I mean, in a country that was, you know, literally being run by the oppressor, they had no rights.
No Jews had any rights whatsoever except the right to worship, which was a miracle.
But no civil rights, none.
And yet Jesus operated on the small scale.
Right? He, I mean, the feeding of the 5,000, that was a very big group, 5,000.
(24:26):
But usually he's with, you know, maximum 12 people.
Mm-hmm.
And he had all the power in the universe.
He could have done anything he wanted, but that was the way he chose to proceed.
Small real encounters with real people and real healing taking place.
That's, that's how he did his work.
So, um, I wrote just actually in the epilogue of the book, just a couple of pages about this very thing, not nearly enough.
(24:51):
So maybe I'll just read that and uh, see how it goes.
So this little book has been my attempt to do what? Small thing I can, both as a human being and a priest.
It is not nearly enough.
I know.
But that is almost always the case, almost all of the time with almost everything every one of us does, and contrary to the morays of our culture, which isue and a poor limits of every kind, I continue to believe that acknowledgement of this fact can be generative more and more.
(25:24):
It seems to me that not nearly enough is not a barrier to doing the work so much as a real place to start and then try to build on.
Of course, if our efforts seem clearly to be not nearly enough, this is largely because the facts on the ground seem just as clearly to be way too much, too much to take in, too much to read about sometimes even, and we swipe the page or switch the station and think later.
(25:51):
I'll come back to it later.
I'll let myself see.
But if you're reading this page, you have let yourself see for at least several hours, and you have let yourself feel and you have let yourself recognize, I hope, the truth and the power and the dignity and the sanctity of so many of the people on the border.
I.
Pope Francis, that great friend of people who've been displaced across the globe has said repeatedly that in response to this crisis of forced migration, all we wealthier, more stably housed people need is listen to the stories of those who are suffering, that this listening is enough.
(26:29):
I'm not sure if this is true.
I do believe though that the power these stories hold, which is to say the power that ignites and sustains and dwells deep within the hearts of every one of the people who are primarily affected by the brutality of our borders has the potential to begin the process of healing for us.
All people on the move have a lot to teach the rest of us about what it means to be human.
(26:54):
That's the thing.
Forced to confront their own fear and vulnerability as they navigate levels of hardship.
Many of the rest of us are protected from.
They've learned more about their need for hope and help and peace than the rest of us.
And so also more about how we might get there one day together.
(27:15):
But for us to learn, we must let them teach us.
And to do that, we must first let go of our terrified attempts to remain powerful and secure and set apart from the fray.
No number of walls of brick or metal or comfort or privilege will keep the suffering of the world at bay.
It is simply impossible.
(27:37):
We have a better chance of reducing the grief of the world by opening ourselves even briefly to its fullness, and then by daring to approach those who are most obviously suffering, fully aware of all we do not yet know and cannot yet see.
And so wanting to learn and grow as much as to give.
(27:57):
If we are to have even a chance of making things better along our own borders, then our task needs to involve as much listening and learning as it does practical work to alleviate whatever small part of the suffering we can.
And not for the sake of migrants and asylum seekers only, but also for ours.
We are all reduced by keeping so much apart.
(28:19):
That's the thing, and we are all impoverished.
Because the truth of life revealed in the broken places, which is to say the truth of hope and of need and of love is as essential to those of us who live in comfort as it is to those who do not.
Yet, this isn't as easy as it sounds, even if we do honestly desire to help, help make the world a better place.
(28:45):
Spending time with individuals is a slow, pitifully local way to do it.
The truth is that I often felt useless walking over the bridge into Juarez every day with no plan beyond class for the kids, and most days, a walk up to the checkpoint and it's accompanying, disempowering, deflating, sometimes enraging, walk back down again.
(29:08):
Why am I doing this? I'd ask, what is the point? The questions still feel very real, even all this time later, and I find myself answering them again the way I always did.
I.
Because in this way I share at least a little in the suffering and real powerlessness of the people and somehow leaning into that, the action itself.
(29:33):
I mean the act of leaning in draws me into the power of God, which only those who know their own powerlessness seem to have access to.
And with this power, what I was able to write this book perhaps, and you have been able to read it.
And from here, who knows? One thing I'm certain about the border is everywhere in our country today, its effects and also its people, families from the street by the Paso del Norte Bridge are right now making lives in the big cities, small towns and rural communities of every state of this country.
(30:12):
If you choose, it would be simple to find ways to connect with them, but what good would that do? I hear you say it's not enough.
And I know, believe me, I know how you feel.
But then I remember not enough is better than nothing.
Not enough.
Once accepted, keeps us going and leads us on.
(30:34):
Not enough in the end, draws us towards each other in love and awareness of our mutual need.
And when that happens, well, when that happens, you will know.
Well, Tina, thank you so much.
Thank you so much for the time.
Um, and so I also want this is, um, the plug that we'll put for multiple points.
(30:59):
You're gonna be with us in person, um, in Albuquerque on, um.
The 16th March.
March 16th and 15th, I think.
Yeah.
So, okay, we'll edit that out.
So you're gonna be with us in person, um, at the Cathedral for a reading of your new book, the Asylum Seekers, which comes out on March 18th.
(31:20):
Um, anywhere books are sold.
Um.
And, uh, you'll be, we'll be doing a reading and a bit of a panel discussion.
This is a victory lap in some ways for RGBM, um, and the work that we've done, particularly with asylum seekers since 2019.
And so, um, Reza and I and Tina will be there, um, at the Cathedral at 5:00 PM on the evening of the 15th, um, to talk about what this experience has been, how it's grown, how it got started, uh, some of the philosophy underlying the ministry, and then, um.
(31:52):
And then you'll be preaching at the 11:00 AM am service at the Cathedral of St.
John on the 16th.
So we will be up in Albuquerque, in person.
Um, if you want more of this conversation.
Um, and on that Saturday night particularly.
So if any clergy here or hearing it wanna dive deeper, uh, you can come see us there.
We'd love to have that conversation.
So Tina, thank you so much.
(32:13):
Thank you.
Um, you always have a place here.
Uh, you always got a home here.
Thank you.
Anytime you wanna come out, we're happy to have you.
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