July 27, 2023 • 35 mins
Have you ever wondered what shapes our understanding of love, self, and God? Join us as we take a thought-provoking journey with our dear friend, Jerry Henderson, exploring these complex questions. Our conversation offers an introspective dive into our spiritual journeys, the deconstruction and reconstruction of our beliefs, and the courage it takes to trust in the divine love that always surrounds us.
Jerry's candid revelations on how our perceptions of God are often mirror images of our experiences, stand out. He helps us delve into the potential pitfalls of such perceptions, leading to unhealthy concepts of love and self. The conversation also leads us to question doctrines and belief systems that may limit our spiritual growth. Together, we dissect Jesus's teachings and how they encourage us to go beyond the confines of our belief systems.
Lastly, we turn the spotlight on the critical yet often neglected aspect of self-love in Christianity. Jerry shares his personal journey from self-loathing to self-love, a powerful testament that echoes within many of us. We discuss the obstacles of shame and self-hatred and how acknowledging our self-worth can lead to a more authentic self. Join us as we revisit the story of original sin, not as a tale of condemnation but as a reminder of our inherent belovedness and worthiness. In this transformative exchange, we endeavor to inspire you to see the hope in the questions
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to season two of so Much More, a lifestyle
podcast by Dennis and HeatherDrake.
So Much More is a podcast basedon our lives, eclectic and
inspired, one whererelationships are honored and
invested in.
We invite you to join us as wecontinue a lifestyle and a
lifelong discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I thought it would be real nice to have one of my
oldest and dearest friends to bea guest on a podcast.
So, jerry Henderson, welcome toour podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Hey, thank you guys for having me.
It's a joy to be here with you.
It's a joy, a real joy.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
So let's talk about Jerry for a minute, because
we've already introducedourselves and people kind of
know us, or at least they couldhop on and figure out who we are
.
But you met Jerry 30 years ago,I think it was when we were in
Tulsa.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, I would have been 20.
Yeah, it's just right now, 30years.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
So we've been having conversations for a long time,
and so it's a real gift to haveJerry here and record a
conversation, because we're goodat talking.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, I think it's important for people to value
the lifelong friendships thatyou are given and be aware of
them, because Jerry and I, ofcourse, met when he was 21 and I
was 23.
Babies, just small children,and then to think that all these
years later we would have atrajectory that is, I don't know
(01:27):
, just in a way seems to stillbe able to relate to each other
and experience that we've had, Idon't know, seem to edify each
other in some capacity.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, I think our lives have mirrored each other
in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
And so you know, when you went to it was of course we
worked at Shadow Mountaintogether and then you were guys
were in Bible college and thenyouth pastoring and I was youth
pastoring and you guys werestarting a church and then
starting a church, and so it'syeah, and then I think also the
thoughts right, the journey offaith.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, yeah, I mean a lot of natural things kind of
lead into that, because to me itwas like our fathering children
and course ministry and thosekind of things were real similar
.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
And also disappointments were real,
similar for us.
So a lot of pain, a lot of real, similar pain.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
No, let's definitely talk about that, but it does
kind of, you know, and then evenlike our upbringing, different,
you know we wouldn't want toget any kind of comparison or
anything.
You had your struggles, I hadmine, and I was thinking even
today how that kind makes yousee, or come to the same
(02:40):
conclusions or similarconclusions when you had
experiences.
So I think that that alwayshelped me to have you as a
sounding board to kind of talkabout the struggles that we're
having.
And so I think you know, inthis year, this episode of our
season of the podcast, I hopefor us to be able to talk about
some things that will helppeople on their journey, and so
(03:03):
I think the conversations thatwe might get into today and in
future podcasts would hopefullybe something that other people
could listen in on and connectwith, that would help them in
the path that they might begoing in their life, spiritually
or emotionally or whatever.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
One of the things that was important for us is
that idea of so much more issuch a hopeful thought because
for whatever season we're in, ifwe felt like that was the only
thing.
But it's such a hopeful thoughtto think there's so much more.
There's so much more love tolearn and to give and there's so
much more joy to find and toexperience and share.
(03:42):
And there's so much more.
You know, obviously, pain thatwe'll have to trudge through,
but there's so much more andthat's in itself is a hope.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think buzzword right now is deconstruction.
People talk about theirdeconstruction of their
spirituality and I don't reallylike that term necessarily,
because it has a negativeconnotation to it and but I have
to admit that, as I look backon my life, I was born into the
(04:14):
Catholic denomination and at onepoint I felt like it wasn't
serving me and so I came uponamong the Protestants and so
that was, needless to say, adeconstruction or a
transformation or a shift, or abomb that went off, you know.
And then, a few years after that, I went to Bible school and had
(04:35):
those experiences and Heatherand I got married and we worked
at a church and then we were letgo from there and another bomb
went off.
And so, whatever you want tocall it, your life has kind of
these undoings and we've almostcome to not fear them anymore
but kind of embrace them as partof what it is to to be a human
(04:58):
being and walk on this earth totry to figure out your
spirituality, and so maybethere's people listening that
are experiencing that as well,and so that doesn't necessarily
mean that your world's coming toan end.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Now, maybe that your world is, just like you said,
evolving.
Right, because life shows upwith these little gifts that in
the moment we don't see as agift, that causes to ask, causes
to question, causes to seek,and in that we start to learn
what's serving us well, what'snot serving us.
And then there's the sheddingprocess.
Right, and we're really, Ithink sometimes we're afraid of
(05:31):
the shedding process, ofshedding something that maybe
isn't serving us because at onepoint it served us, and so we
really get stuck on it becausewe think that that thought or
that way of seeing something isgoing to serve us the same way
throughout our life.
Right, and what maybe served meat 21 years old as a new father
(05:55):
, new Christian, because Ididn't grow up in the church, I
grew up in a non-believingfamily.
My first introduction was at theage of 17 to the gospel.
That's when I made a decisionto become a Christian.
And as I've evolved in life, Ithink God has given gifts along
the way that at the moment Ididn't see as a gift.
(06:18):
But as I look at it now, thoseare the things that say hey,
there's a challenging moment, apainful moment that is going to
ask you to have the courage tolook at what you believe and
really say does this serve me?
And if it's not serving us,sometimes we're really afraid to
(06:40):
let that go because of thecontrol that we think that in
believing something in a certainway provides us a sense of
security.
But the reality is there is nota lot of security and just a
belief system in itself.
A security is found in thatdynamic relationship with our
creator.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You know, I'd like to talk a little bit more about
what you said about that idea ofshedding some things that used
to give you security but maybedidn't no longer serve you,
because I think that EugenePeterson was talking about how
you know where you end up shouldnever be where you started,
because you're on a journey.
(07:20):
And so I remember coming into myspirituality or my Christianity
after dabbling maybe more thandabbling with drugs and alcohol
and so there was kind of a maybea sense of fear that I would
disappoint God or maybe becursed by God or punished by God
(07:42):
or whatever.
That kind of served me to, keptme from going out and party and
with my friends, right, you knowand so in a way that
understanding of God, asprimitive as it was, served me
for that time.
But now, as a 54 year old guy,if I'm constantly afraid of God
(08:02):
squashing me like a bug, I'm notgonna function well, and so
shedding that thing that servedme at one time it actually
protected me, probably frommyself or whatever.
So what you know, I wonder howmany other things people on a
(08:25):
regular basis don't realizethey're holding on to that
should have maybe been shed along time ago, or at least maybe
now is the time Right yeah,yeah, I mean I know we've talked
about our stories and all ofour stories having trauma
involved in it and, for me,having a traumatic childhood
(08:47):
with no real sense of boundaries, no real sense of rules.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I mean it was just, you know, whatever was really
taking place.
And so the Christian faithstructure gave me a sense of
boundaries, control, some senseof safety, and that my view of
God at that time was one thatwanted to keep me in line, right
, but that was probably justfrom my perspective of what I
(09:12):
needed.
I gravitated to the rules partof it and the performance part
of it, because you know ourbrains, right, they are
constantly looking for what'sgonna keep me safe and what is
unsafe, and so all those thingsthat I could shame about myself,
I could look at certain thingsor belief systems or ways that I
(09:32):
acted and shame myself for it.
Or I could look at it and go,hmm, my brain was simply
functioning to keep me in arigid kind of Christianity at
that time because it provided acertain level of safety.
But as I grow, what was builtto be something to serve me
actually caused the implosion ofmy life later, you know, and
(09:55):
wow, yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
When you talk about that, it makes me think about
this idea that a maturing faithor a maturing life requires us
to move out of fear into love.
And what does it look like forus to undo a lot of the things
that fear taught us and givingup those kind of thoughts for
(10:19):
thoughts of what will love teachus in place of what fear taught
us?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
You know, I kind of thought, you know what gives me
the most kind of energy orexcitement about even beginning
this podcast for this seasonwould be talking about in the so
much more light of thinking,you know, what would my life be
like if I could really freemyself from that fear of this
(10:47):
angry God concept to reallyunderstand that he's a loving
God, he's grace-filled, you know, and really just kind of
meditating on that.
And then we were having aconversation last night because
I think all of this is coming uporganically and you had said it
a little differently.
Do you remember how you said itlast night?
Was it about?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
the fact that, when we're, was it the part about us
making God in our own image?
No well.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I mean we could talk about that.
That was powerful too, but Ithink more or less you I said, I
think you said shame-basedgospel to a love.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yes, I think that's how you said it Moving from a
shame-based belief system to alove-based system, and an
experience of that right.
So one is a system and a set ofbeliefs, another is an
experience, right?
So I could have a construct ofwhat I believe love should be
(11:44):
like, and then I will have anexperience of what love actually
is.
And love is an experience,right.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
So as long as.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
I'm in my belief system.
Am I really in an experientialloving relationship?
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Well, I know, if you're in your belief system,
you are bound to be disappointed.
Yes, right, because we all havethese different beliefs or
ideas of what love should be andhow people should treat us if
they love us and how God shouldtreat us if God loves us, and
what are the requirements forlove are.
So I agree 100% that movinginto and the invitation, I think
, from the divine is to moveinto that experience and out of
(12:21):
that mental ascent.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Absolutely yeah.
And so I think that there'sdoctrine that maybe has served
us, and I think that, first ofall, we have to realize doctrine
are man-made thoughts orconcepts that they've gathered
from teaching from each otherand from their evaluation or
(12:46):
study of scripture.
And so I think sometimes wehold doctrine as sacred, when
only God is sacred, and ourinterpretation could very well
be wrong or short-sighted, ormisunderstood.
And so I'm really presentingthe idea, and I think that's
what we're sitting here doing ispresenting the idea.
Maybe we need to turn loose tosome of these things that we
(13:09):
thought were super godly, butmaybe God has nothing to do with
it all, or for whatever reason,they did help you or serve you
at one point, but they're notnecessarily the highest and best
for us.
And so, because I know that oneof the scriptures I like says
that the traditions of man makethe word of God of no effect, I
got to think that God's wordwould be perfect in work, but
(13:32):
yet there is something thatstops that, and it's our beliefs
.
And so oftentimes when I thinkGod cursed you or they talk
about God cursing, I have almosta different idea of that.
Now it's like well, the curseis my way of thinking, because
it's preventing God from doingsomething awesome about my life,
and so I really think thatreally that is the conversation
(13:55):
how do you recognize thosethings and shed them?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Yeah, I think it was even where Jesus said that you
know you search the scriptures,for in them you think that you
find life.
So we think we find life in ourbelief system.
If I have a correctconstruction of a belief system
that will provide me with life,that'll give me the road map
that I need, where, when youthink about how Jesus showed up
(14:22):
in the Gospels, he wasn't on theroad map that everybody thought
he should be on and theexperience that everybody was
having with him was so differentthan what they were expecting,
so different than the system ofreligious belief, because you've
got folks that you couldn'thave found people who thought
more firmly that if they knewand understood the scripture or
(14:44):
a certain belief system, thatthat is what was going to serve
them.
And yet Jesus was saying ifyour righteousness doesn't
exceed that of those who thinkthat that's the way, then how
are you going to even enter intoor inherit or experience one
might say experience the kingdomof God?
And so?
(15:04):
But yeah, I think you're right,you know, back to that image of
God thing, right, where, if Icreate an image of God based off
of what my internal beliefsystems or my experiences are,
what I think will serve me, andif I don't trust myself, if I
don't love myself, then I mightneed a God who keeps me aligned
(15:27):
right.
I might need a God who beats meup, because I think that's what
I'm worthy of, versus the corework of when I learn to love
myself, when I learn to havetrust in myself, which is not a
real popular doctrine withinreligious systems of trusting
yourself and loving yourself.
But you know, christ himselfeven said you'll receive the
(15:49):
Holy Spirit and the Holy Spiritwill teach you and lead you and
guide you.
So if that's the case, when Ished the thought of I can't
trust myself, I'm not enough,I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable,
I don't love myself, then Ibegin and I know it was powerful
for me to understand that thenI could experience and have a
God that is in the image of loveversus God who wanted to keep
(16:11):
me aligned because of my system,that I didn't trust myself.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
It's inspiring when you mention that and just keep
thinking about the fact how muchcourage it takes to actually
change the way that we think orto answer the invitation to come
out of anxiety into this beliefthat says that we are loved and
held no matter what.
That there is this belovednessthat is, in eight and every
(16:38):
single person, the image of thedivine, and what does it mean
for us to tune into, to practicelistening to that and living
out of that place of sacrednessand belovedness and instead of
the fear or the anxiety thatrules and tells us this is how
you should or shouldn't go?
I mean, there's that beautifulimagery in the 23rd Psalm where
(17:01):
you have a shepherd, you don'thave to fear because you're not
alone, and that feeling ofaloneness or separateness and
how much anxiety that brings topeople feeling like God would
abandon them, or I mean people,not just in this age, but since
people have been writing aboutGod, the prayers always don't
leave me, don't abandon me.
(17:22):
And then we understand that Goddoes not.
The promise of Jesus isEmmanuel, god with us, that God
has always been present with us,even in Hagar, in the very
beginning of the Jewish Bible,where this story of she's out
there and feels alone and God iswith her and she sees that and
then again she names him the Godwho sees me, that idea of being
(17:45):
seen by the divine at all times.
There's so much courage inchanging the way that we think
about, the courage required tosay I'm not.
There's just no way for me tobe unloved by him.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Right, you know, and I was really moved when you were
speaking about making God inthis particular image, because I
think a lot of people havepushed back on that idea that
we're not like those pagans thatwould make a false God, you
know, by pouring gold and makinga calf or whatever, and so we
(18:20):
think that instantly that wouldnot apply to us, but just how
much of our doctrine is reallyshaped by this God that we want
him to be, and so we are reallyI mean, I think more than many
of us would want to admit havemade God in our own image, and
(18:42):
so, and again, perhaps it didserve you, but I'm I'm asking
that maybe through theseconversations he could peel back
the layers from our you know,the buildup of doctrine or
whatever that we've put on sothat we could see who he really
is.
And maybe it's not an angry God,or you know that.
(19:06):
You know, because I rememberone guy when I was, you know,
kind of presenting this idea.
He got so angry at me and hewas well, you know, if, if God,
if you know, if he's not mad atme, then what if I, then I'll
just go do whatever I want to do, you know, and he was convinced
that that, like holding on tothat thing kept him in line and
(19:27):
it did.
Yeah, right, so it was servinghim.
But but then the sad thing is,I mean, you never really fall in
love with your captor, unlessit's Stockholm syndrome.
It's not a healthy thing.
But I think really to go like,wow, you know, you're not angry
at me all the time.
I could fall in love more withthat God who, who I think isn't.
(19:49):
I'm not making him this new God, but I think it's peeling off
all the stuff that we added tohim.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, and really cool thought about that too.
Right is when did it serve me?
When was when?
At what point in my life did itserve me to think that I needed
somebody to keep me in line,right?
So if I, if I look at God inthat way and I think, well, if,
if God is, is loving and there'sthis, this kindness, but no, I,
(20:17):
I need a God who's going tokeep me in life, will probably
some point in my life Iidentified with either an
authority figure or a parentthat maybe that was how they
showed up in my life.
And so I'm kind of hardwired,right.
My system has been programmedto think that maybe that's how
love is expressed.
(20:37):
Love is expressed in keeping mealigned or keeping me in that
harsh space.
And so I have this mentalprogramming and this construct
that says I need, I need God toshow up that way.
And then I don't, as we talkedabout.
You know, I don't trust myself.
It's difficult for me to lovemyself.
It's so shame based, right, andyou know for me that shame led
(20:58):
to years of hiding myself, notshowing up as my authentic self,
playing a character, trying toprove myself and people please,
which I still am trying tofigure out how to not do that,
which led me into 13 years ofdrinking and, you know, divorces
and rehab, to really begin tocome to a moment where I could
(21:19):
say you know, I am worthy of myown love.
And to be able to give that.
Because I had to shift what Ithought God viewed me as,
because I viewed him in acertain way, which meant that I
felt like he viewed me in acertain way, which then, as I
begin to understand love, that Ithink that concept of love
(21:40):
starts to untangle everything.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Agreed, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
When you start hitting on love, all the things
start to come into a process.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I would have said my entire journey of religion,
devotion, spirituality.
I would have sworn to you thatit was about love.
I mean, I could tell you theverses about love I would have,
I would have directed you, butthen I would have said but love
does this, love requires this.
And then, really coming to this, unraveling that love does not
(22:12):
coerce.
There is no coercion in love.
Love just loves, because that'swhat love does.
That begins to pull out thepins when you have constructed a
deity who has a lot ofrequirements.
Yeah, instead of saying just,we're delighted in, we're made
(22:33):
in God's own image, god delightsin us.
We're loved and held andbeloved.
And finding our way back tothat self, that's part of the
journey.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
You know it's interesting you talked about
that pin because I was justthinking there's many things,
even in this conversation, butconversations that we've had and
we'll have, there's lynch pinissues, Absolutely.
Absolutely Are things that youknow, once you kind of get a
breakthrough or or begin to dealwith that, all the dominoes
start falling or all thetumblers get falling in place or
or whatever.
And you, you said just a momentago I mean that is such a
(23:09):
loaded statement You'll begin tolove myself.
Because you know there's aspiritual and I don't want to I
use that term loosely or, like aChristian, I use that term
loosely kind of a pushback onanyone saying love yourself,
because it feels very selfishand fundamentally wrong.
(23:30):
But then we can't argue withthe words of Christ, you know,
and you know, and he's sayingthat all the laws fulfilled in
loving your neighbor as yourself.
So there clearly is thisimportance and, and I think it
could be easily understood thatI'm really never going to love
any people any better than Ilove myself.
(23:52):
And when I, when I have shame orI I don't, I wouldn't say for
me it's shame as much as I'vehad an outright disdain for me
most of my life.
Yeah, and there's just this andI mean I'd never really admit
it, but just this, just disgustabout me, you know, and it was
(24:15):
from failing, because failingmeant pain, failing meant
embarrassment, you know just,you know any of my weakness or
shortcoming made me look lessthan a man, and I just didn't
need that kind of spotlightshine on how I already felt
about myself.
So there's just, you know, thethe.
You turn it in other, differentways sometimes, to drink,
(24:36):
drinking drugs or whatever.
For me it was just outrightmeanness and anger towards
everyone around me, because ifI'm that hard on myself, my kids
don't have a chance, my wifedoesn't have a chance, and so
you know, those are, those arebig statements that you're
making.
You know, so casually, jerry,love myself.
You know, I mean I'm like, youknow, I feel people could push
(24:58):
back on that, but I mean we knowfundamentally that's what
Christ is saying, and so it's abigger deal maybe than we've
ever made it, and somehow itjust it gets swept to the side
in the average Christian walk orspiritual journey, and to me
(25:19):
it's the lichman, yeah Well thechallenge is right, we, this, we
, we walk around with it.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Thought there's something wrong with us, a lot
of us right, and there's thisthing of no, there's something
wrong with me.
So if I start to love myself,then I'm going to take that to
the most wrong side of thatright.
I'm going to overly indulge themto become selfish.
Well, but if you understandthat loving yourself isn't going
down a rabbit hole ofself-destruction or it's not
(25:46):
going down a rabbit hole of, youknow, not loving others, it's
actually returning to who weactually authentically are.
I love what Richard Rohr talksabout the original blessing.
Right, we focus so much on ouroriginal sin, but there is the
original blessing where God saidyou are good, very good, and
(26:07):
what was the original sin,so-called in the Old Testament
in the Garden of Eden?
It was don't eat this tree,because in the moment that you
do right, you're going to knowthe difference between.
It's the tree of knowledge ofgood and evil, right.
And I wonder if in that therewas the classification that we
then did, which is these are thegood parts about me and these
(26:27):
are the bad parts about me.
And we and ourselvesconstructed that identity that
there's this really bad stuffabout me and there's really this
, this good stuff about me.
And when we focus in on theshame that just starts to show
up in our lives a lot more, andrealizing that, no, even God
(26:47):
said very good, and then youknow, you see it through.
Like you said love yourneighbor as you love yourself.
And just from my story, it'sjust mine.
In rehab last day there wasthis little graduation ceremony
and it was other saying words ofaffirmations about me, and then
(27:10):
I had to say a word ofaffirmation about myself.
How hard was that?
Oh, it was so hard right,because what I did in my
drinking was to quiet the noiseabout hating myself.
I drank so I could tolerate myown presence, right, so I could
just be with even myself and notlike hating myself.
In those moments and thatthought of there's something
(27:31):
wrong with me fundamentally andI know a lot of people resonate
with that sense and that feelingand I as I it was really hard
to make that statement or to saysomething positive about myself
.
But the words that came justalmost out of my soul were I am
worthy of my own love.
Wow, and that shifted somethingin me then made me go on a
(27:56):
journey of why did I not believethat I was?
Why did I believe that I wasunworthy of my own love?
Because as long as I believed Iwas unworthy of my love, I
didn't feel comfortablereceiving God's love.
There was a barrier because mysystem internally wasn't
comfortable with love, because Icouldn't give love to myself.
I couldn't receive love fromothers because I fundamentally
(28:19):
didn't believe I was worthy oflove.
Goes back to childhood stuff.
But it also went into myChristian faith system of what I
believed and what I thought itwas supposed to do in order to
be loved by God.
I attached a tube.
My existence neededjustification, and so I needed
to do certain things in order toprove my love and my worthiness
(28:43):
.
And then, as I realized that no.
I'm love because I draw breath.
I'm love because I was made and, yeah, I think people push back
on that thought of lovingourselves because we're so
hardwired to not love ourselves,but it's the most freeing thing
that I've experienced in mylife.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
I was talking to Nathaniel a couple of weeks ago
and he was joking with me, buthe said could he go work out on
Sabbath and cause he goes to thegym and does his workout?
And I said, oh, I think thatwould be amazing for you,
because I know how much you loveit and I know how much joy it
brings you and just it helps you.
And I said remember, that'swhat the Sabbath is all about to
(29:26):
remind us.
It's not any productivity, it'snot anything we do, it's just a
day to remember You're beingheld, you're being loved, you're
being provided for, you arebeing cared for, just because
you exist.
And so I think that for a longtime in Christian faith, people
have maybe I forgot to mentionthat- that that day could be a
(29:50):
day set aside every single weekjust to remember your
belovedness, just to rememberjoy, just to remember nothing I
do matters in a bed.
I mean, obviously, things we domatter, but I just mean that's
not the reason I'm loved orcared for or worthy, that just
my own being is worthiness.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
You know, when you're talking about this kind of a
thing, you know there's alwaysthat treachery, yeah,
nervousness that we're gettingnew agey now, next thing you're
gonna be smoking weed anddropping acid or something like
that.
And you know, and I'm remindedthings.
(30:32):
I don't know why.
It just helps me, it makes mefeel more grounded or connected
when I see things in scripturethat are just so blatantly
exactly what we're talking about, because this is not trippy
stuff, that just is a new ageything and I think that's a
clever trick of the enemy tokeep people away from like their
truest self and really havingthat kind of self love.
(30:54):
That would inspire us to trulylove other people and truly love
God, you know.
But for us to kind of thinkthat's exactly what Paul was
struggling with in Romans sevenand then eight.
Are we inherently evil?
Are we inherently good?
You know, I was preaching everyfor like three or four years I
(31:17):
was.
I did once a month.
I did this little.
I don't know what kind of achurch it was some
denominational church.
I did there.
You know what's a chapel forthe kids in the school and I
preach that you're good.
You know, out of out of Romanseven there and they never let
(31:39):
me back in the church again.
And little sixth graders werestanding up rebuking me because
they just that didn't compute intheir doctrine.
You know that we're scum, right, that we're all garbage.
God's mad at you and he'll just, I don't know, I guess he'll
just let you in.
But so sick of you, you know,and it's like wait a minute, you
(32:01):
know, paul sitting there going,you know I do what's wrong, but
it's not me, it's sin in myflesh, you know, but I, you know
, so I'm, I'm, you know, madegood and I'm, you know, but it's
, and I'm not evil, but I doevil thing.
So he struggled with this kindof thing and we and we realized
that that that's all part ofthis kind of coming to a
(32:24):
realization, that that we areworth love, we're worth you know
, yeah, and it seems to be thething where one of the things
that we're really afraid of, theconcept of true self love, and,
like you said, we'll, we'llactually go.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Oh, that sounds new age, you.
Well, why would you let, whywould you brand it that way and
let that experience be robbedfrom you because of a label that
, well, it could be this thingover here.
When you see the theme throughscripture as love and, as you
begin to really understand, madein the image of God, okay, and
(33:02):
you really begin to look at thefact that you know are, I think,
fundamentally, humans are goodand humans are love.
That's where the image of God.
So therefore we and God is love.
So therefore we're love and aswe put the emphasis, we go well,
why is there evil in the world?
Why is all this?
Well, if we focus our energy youknow what they talk about in
(33:26):
neuroscience that where youplace your attention and where
you place is where you placeyour energy and the thing that
we're focusing on.
We're just feeding it so muchmore that if we were to say,
well, maybe I'll focus in on thelove and the goodness that's
inside of me, maybe that beginsto grow and I become more by
just naturally focusing on that.
(33:49):
That just becomes more of who Iam and I'm not, you know,
trying to.
You know, focus on getting ridof these bad things of me.
I'm just trying to figure outhow do I let the authentic me
shine.
Which is authentic me is love.
We talk out of two sides of ourmouth.
Right, it was like, well, we'remade in the image of God and
God is love, and we're fearfullyand wonderfully made and you
(34:12):
know all these and love yourneighbor as yourself.
Well, I have to love myselffirst, but there's like I don't
know.
But we're, we're fundamentallybad, we're horrible sinners
because of the fall, and youknow the stuff, and it's like
now maybe we've just placed somuch focus in that in our life,
that that's what we just keepseeing and what we keep
gravitating towards, and as weplace the emphasis on love, that
(34:32):
that's what begins to show upmore in our life.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I can almost hear people pushing back on what
we're saying right now, andthat's okay.
But I do think again if youdon't turn loose, there's some
stuff that's not serving you.
You're never really going tomove into what God has for you,
and I don't think anything thatwe're saying is not.
Uh, it doesn't bring hope andbring Christ.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
You've been listening to season two of the so much
more podcast with Dennis andHeather Drink.
We want to take a moment andexpress our sincerest thanks for
the investment of your time andif you're interested in
continuing conversation or moreinformation about what we
discussed, please email us at somuch more podcast at gmailcom.
If you're interested in some ofthe creative projects that
(35:17):
Dennis has done, you can findout more information at
drakinsonscom or find us onTwitter at so much more podcast.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to season two of so Much More, a lifestyle
podcast by Dennis and HeatherDrake.
So Much More is a podcast basedon our lives, eclectic and
inspired, one whererelationships are honored and
invested in.
We invite you to join us as wecontinue a lifestyle and a
lifelong discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I thought it would be real nice to have one of my
oldest and dearest friends to bea guest on a podcast.
So, jerry Henderson, welcome toour podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Hey, thank you guys for having me.
It's a joy to be here with you.
It's a joy, a real joy.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
So let's talk about Jerry for a minute, because
we've already introducedourselves and people kind of
know us, or at least they couldhop on and figure out who we are
.
But you met Jerry 30 years ago,I think it was when we were in
Tulsa.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, I would have been 20.
Yeah, it's just right now, 30years.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
So we've been having conversations for a long time,
and so it's a real gift to haveJerry here and record a
conversation, because we're goodat talking.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, I think it's important for people to value
the lifelong friendships thatyou are given and be aware of
them, because Jerry and I, ofcourse, met when he was 21 and I
was 23.
Babies, just small children,and then to think that all these
years later we would have atrajectory that is, I don't know
(01:27):
, just in a way seems to stillbe able to relate to each other
and experience that we've had, Idon't know, seem to edify each
other in some capacity.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, I think our lives have mirrored each other
in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
And so you know, when you went to it was of course we
worked at Shadow Mountaintogether and then you were guys
were in Bible college and thenyouth pastoring and I was youth
pastoring and you guys werestarting a church and then
starting a church, and so it'syeah, and then I think also the
thoughts right, the journey offaith.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, yeah, I mean a lot of natural things kind of
lead into that, because to me itwas like our fathering children
and course ministry and thosekind of things were real similar
.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
And also disappointments were real,
similar for us.
So a lot of pain, a lot of real, similar pain.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
No, let's definitely talk about that, but it does
kind of, you know, and then evenlike our upbringing, different,
you know we wouldn't want toget any kind of comparison or
anything.
You had your struggles, I hadmine, and I was thinking even
today how that kind makes yousee, or come to the same
(02:40):
conclusions or similarconclusions when you had
experiences.
So I think that that alwayshelped me to have you as a
sounding board to kind of talkabout the struggles that we're
having.
And so I think you know, inthis year, this episode of our
season of the podcast, I hopefor us to be able to talk about
some things that will helppeople on their journey, and so
(03:03):
I think the conversations thatwe might get into today and in
future podcasts would hopefullybe something that other people
could listen in on and connectwith, that would help them in
the path that they might begoing in their life, spiritually
or emotionally or whatever.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
One of the things that was important for us is
that idea of so much more issuch a hopeful thought because
for whatever season we're in, ifwe felt like that was the only
thing.
But it's such a hopeful thoughtto think there's so much more.
There's so much more love tolearn and to give and there's so
much more joy to find and toexperience and share.
(03:42):
And there's so much more.
You know, obviously, pain thatwe'll have to trudge through,
but there's so much more andthat's in itself is a hope.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think buzzword right now is deconstruction.
People talk about theirdeconstruction of their
spirituality and I don't reallylike that term necessarily,
because it has a negativeconnotation to it and but I have
to admit that, as I look backon my life, I was born into the
(04:14):
Catholic denomination and at onepoint I felt like it wasn't
serving me and so I came uponamong the Protestants and so
that was, needless to say, adeconstruction or a
transformation or a shift, or abomb that went off, you know.
And then, a few years after that, I went to Bible school and had
(04:35):
those experiences and Heatherand I got married and we worked
at a church and then we were letgo from there and another bomb
went off.
And so, whatever you want tocall it, your life has kind of
these undoings and we've almostcome to not fear them anymore
but kind of embrace them as partof what it is to to be a human
(04:58):
being and walk on this earth totry to figure out your
spirituality, and so maybethere's people listening that
are experiencing that as well,and so that doesn't necessarily
mean that your world's coming toan end.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Now, maybe that your world is, just like you said,
evolving.
Right, because life shows upwith these little gifts that in
the moment we don't see as agift, that causes to ask, causes
to question, causes to seek,and in that we start to learn
what's serving us well, what'snot serving us.
And then there's the sheddingprocess.
Right, and we're really, Ithink sometimes we're afraid of
(05:31):
the shedding process, ofshedding something that maybe
isn't serving us because at onepoint it served us, and so we
really get stuck on it becausewe think that that thought or
that way of seeing something isgoing to serve us the same way
throughout our life.
Right, and what maybe served meat 21 years old as a new father
(05:55):
, new Christian, because Ididn't grow up in the church, I
grew up in a non-believingfamily.
My first introduction was at theage of 17 to the gospel.
That's when I made a decisionto become a Christian.
And as I've evolved in life, Ithink God has given gifts along
the way that at the moment Ididn't see as a gift.
(06:18):
But as I look at it now, thoseare the things that say hey,
there's a challenging moment, apainful moment that is going to
ask you to have the courage tolook at what you believe and
really say does this serve me?
And if it's not serving us,sometimes we're really afraid to
(06:40):
let that go because of thecontrol that we think that in
believing something in a certainway provides us a sense of
security.
But the reality is there is nota lot of security and just a
belief system in itself.
A security is found in thatdynamic relationship with our
creator.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You know, I'd like to talk a little bit more about
what you said about that idea ofshedding some things that used
to give you security but maybedidn't no longer serve you,
because I think that EugenePeterson was talking about how
you know where you end up shouldnever be where you started,
because you're on a journey.
(07:20):
And so I remember coming into myspirituality or my Christianity
after dabbling maybe more thandabbling with drugs and alcohol
and so there was kind of a maybea sense of fear that I would
disappoint God or maybe becursed by God or punished by God
(07:42):
or whatever.
That kind of served me to, keptme from going out and party and
with my friends, right, you knowand so in a way that
understanding of God, asprimitive as it was, served me
for that time.
But now, as a 54 year old guy,if I'm constantly afraid of God
(08:02):
squashing me like a bug, I'm notgonna function well, and so
shedding that thing that servedme at one time it actually
protected me, probably frommyself or whatever.
So what you know, I wonder howmany other things people on a
(08:25):
regular basis don't realizethey're holding on to that
should have maybe been shed along time ago, or at least maybe
now is the time Right yeah,yeah, I mean I know we've talked
about our stories and all ofour stories having trauma
involved in it and, for me,having a traumatic childhood
(08:47):
with no real sense of boundaries, no real sense of rules.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I mean it was just, you know, whatever was really
taking place.
And so the Christian faithstructure gave me a sense of
boundaries, control, some senseof safety, and that my view of
God at that time was one thatwanted to keep me in line, right
, but that was probably justfrom my perspective of what I
(09:12):
needed.
I gravitated to the rules partof it and the performance part
of it, because you know ourbrains, right, they are
constantly looking for what'sgonna keep me safe and what is
unsafe, and so all those thingsthat I could shame about myself,
I could look at certain thingsor belief systems or ways that I
(09:32):
acted and shame myself for it.
Or I could look at it and go,hmm, my brain was simply
functioning to keep me in arigid kind of Christianity at
that time because it provided acertain level of safety.
But as I grow, what was builtto be something to serve me
actually caused the implosion ofmy life later, you know, and
(09:55):
wow, yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
When you talk about that, it makes me think about
this idea that a maturing faithor a maturing life requires us
to move out of fear into love.
And what does it look like forus to undo a lot of the things
that fear taught us and givingup those kind of thoughts for
(10:19):
thoughts of what will love teachus in place of what fear taught
us?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
You know, I kind of thought, you know what gives me
the most kind of energy orexcitement about even beginning
this podcast for this seasonwould be talking about in the so
much more light of thinking,you know, what would my life be
like if I could really freemyself from that fear of this
(10:47):
angry God concept to reallyunderstand that he's a loving
God, he's grace-filled, you know, and really just kind of
meditating on that.
And then we were having aconversation last night because
I think all of this is coming uporganically and you had said it
a little differently.
Do you remember how you said itlast night?
Was it about?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
the fact that, when we're, was it the part about us
making God in our own image?
No well.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I mean we could talk about that.
That was powerful too, but Ithink more or less you I said, I
think you said shame-basedgospel to a love.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yes, I think that's how you said it Moving from a
shame-based belief system to alove-based system, and an
experience of that right.
So one is a system and a set ofbeliefs, another is an
experience, right?
So I could have a construct ofwhat I believe love should be
(11:44):
like, and then I will have anexperience of what love actually
is.
And love is an experience,right.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
So as long as.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
I'm in my belief system.
Am I really in an experientialloving relationship?
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Well, I know, if you're in your belief system,
you are bound to be disappointed.
Yes, right, because we all havethese different beliefs or
ideas of what love should be andhow people should treat us if
they love us and how God shouldtreat us if God loves us, and
what are the requirements forlove are.
So I agree 100% that movinginto and the invitation, I think
, from the divine is to moveinto that experience and out of
(12:21):
that mental ascent.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Absolutely yeah.
And so I think that there'sdoctrine that maybe has served
us, and I think that, first ofall, we have to realize doctrine
are man-made thoughts orconcepts that they've gathered
from teaching from each otherand from their evaluation or
(12:46):
study of scripture.
And so I think sometimes wehold doctrine as sacred, when
only God is sacred, and ourinterpretation could very well
be wrong or short-sighted, ormisunderstood.
And so I'm really presentingthe idea, and I think that's
what we're sitting here doing ispresenting the idea.
Maybe we need to turn loose tosome of these things that we
(13:09):
thought were super godly, butmaybe God has nothing to do with
it all, or for whatever reason,they did help you or serve you
at one point, but they're notnecessarily the highest and best
for us.
And so, because I know that oneof the scriptures I like says
that the traditions of man makethe word of God of no effect, I
got to think that God's wordwould be perfect in work, but
(13:32):
yet there is something thatstops that, and it's our beliefs
.
And so oftentimes when I thinkGod cursed you or they talk
about God cursing, I have almosta different idea of that.
Now it's like well, the curseis my way of thinking, because
it's preventing God from doingsomething awesome about my life,
and so I really think thatreally that is the conversation
(13:55):
how do you recognize thosethings and shed them?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Yeah, I think it was even where Jesus said that you
know you search the scriptures,for in them you think that you
find life.
So we think we find life in ourbelief system.
If I have a correctconstruction of a belief system
that will provide me with life,that'll give me the road map
that I need, where, when youthink about how Jesus showed up
(14:22):
in the Gospels, he wasn't on theroad map that everybody thought
he should be on and theexperience that everybody was
having with him was so differentthan what they were expecting,
so different than the system ofreligious belief, because you've
got folks that you couldn'thave found people who thought
more firmly that if they knewand understood the scripture or
(14:44):
a certain belief system, thatthat is what was going to serve
them.
And yet Jesus was saying ifyour righteousness doesn't
exceed that of those who thinkthat that's the way, then how
are you going to even enter intoor inherit or experience one
might say experience the kingdomof God?
And so?
(15:04):
But yeah, I think you're right,you know, back to that image of
God thing, right, where, if Icreate an image of God based off
of what my internal beliefsystems or my experiences are,
what I think will serve me, andif I don't trust myself, if I
don't love myself, then I mightneed a God who keeps me aligned
(15:27):
right.
I might need a God who beats meup, because I think that's what
I'm worthy of, versus the corework of when I learn to love
myself, when I learn to havetrust in myself, which is not a
real popular doctrine withinreligious systems of trusting
yourself and loving yourself.
But you know, christ himselfeven said you'll receive the
(15:49):
Holy Spirit and the Holy Spiritwill teach you and lead you and
guide you.
So if that's the case, when Ished the thought of I can't
trust myself, I'm not enough,I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable,
I don't love myself, then Ibegin and I know it was powerful
for me to understand that thenI could experience and have a
God that is in the image of loveversus God who wanted to keep
(16:11):
me aligned because of my system,that I didn't trust myself.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
It's inspiring when you mention that and just keep
thinking about the fact how muchcourage it takes to actually
change the way that we think orto answer the invitation to come
out of anxiety into this beliefthat says that we are loved and
held no matter what.
That there is this belovednessthat is, in eight and every
(16:38):
single person, the image of thedivine, and what does it mean
for us to tune into, to practicelistening to that and living
out of that place of sacrednessand belovedness and instead of
the fear or the anxiety thatrules and tells us this is how
you should or shouldn't go?
I mean, there's that beautifulimagery in the 23rd Psalm where
(17:01):
you have a shepherd, you don'thave to fear because you're not
alone, and that feeling ofaloneness or separateness and
how much anxiety that brings topeople feeling like God would
abandon them, or I mean people,not just in this age, but since
people have been writing aboutGod, the prayers always don't
leave me, don't abandon me.
(17:22):
And then we understand that Goddoes not.
The promise of Jesus isEmmanuel, god with us, that God
has always been present with us,even in Hagar, in the very
beginning of the Jewish Bible,where this story of she's out
there and feels alone and God iswith her and she sees that and
then again she names him the Godwho sees me, that idea of being
(17:45):
seen by the divine at all times.
There's so much courage inchanging the way that we think
about, the courage required tosay I'm not.
There's just no way for me tobe unloved by him.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Right, you know, and I was really moved when you were
speaking about making God inthis particular image, because I
think a lot of people havepushed back on that idea that
we're not like those pagans thatwould make a false God, you
know, by pouring gold and makinga calf or whatever, and so we
(18:20):
think that instantly that wouldnot apply to us, but just how
much of our doctrine is reallyshaped by this God that we want
him to be, and so we are reallyI mean, I think more than many
of us would want to admit havemade God in our own image, and
(18:42):
so, and again, perhaps it didserve you, but I'm I'm asking
that maybe through theseconversations he could peel back
the layers from our you know,the buildup of doctrine or
whatever that we've put on sothat we could see who he really
is.
And maybe it's not an angry God,or you know that.
(19:06):
You know, because I rememberone guy when I was, you know,
kind of presenting this idea.
He got so angry at me and hewas well, you know, if, if God,
if you know, if he's not mad atme, then what if I, then I'll
just go do whatever I want to do, you know, and he was convinced
that that, like holding on tothat thing kept him in line and
(19:27):
it did.
Yeah, right, so it was servinghim.
But but then the sad thing is,I mean, you never really fall in
love with your captor, unlessit's Stockholm syndrome.
It's not a healthy thing.
But I think really to go like,wow, you know, you're not angry
at me all the time.
I could fall in love more withthat God who, who I think isn't.
(19:49):
I'm not making him this new God, but I think it's peeling off
all the stuff that we added tohim.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, and really cool thought about that too.
Right is when did it serve me?
When was when?
At what point in my life did itserve me to think that I needed
somebody to keep me in line,right?
So if I, if I look at God inthat way and I think, well, if,
if God is, is loving and there'sthis, this kindness, but no, I,
(20:17):
I need a God who's going tokeep me in life, will probably
some point in my life Iidentified with either an
authority figure or a parentthat maybe that was how they
showed up in my life.
And so I'm kind of hardwired,right.
My system has been programmedto think that maybe that's how
love is expressed.
(20:37):
Love is expressed in keeping mealigned or keeping me in that
harsh space.
And so I have this mentalprogramming and this construct
that says I need, I need God toshow up that way.
And then I don't, as we talkedabout.
You know, I don't trust myself.
It's difficult for me to lovemyself.
It's so shame based, right, andyou know for me that shame led
(20:58):
to years of hiding myself, notshowing up as my authentic self,
playing a character, trying toprove myself and people please,
which I still am trying tofigure out how to not do that,
which led me into 13 years ofdrinking and, you know, divorces
and rehab, to really begin tocome to a moment where I could
(21:19):
say you know, I am worthy of myown love.
And to be able to give that.
Because I had to shift what Ithought God viewed me as,
because I viewed him in acertain way, which meant that I
felt like he viewed me in acertain way, which then, as I
begin to understand love, that Ithink that concept of love
(21:40):
starts to untangle everything.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Agreed, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
When you start hitting on love, all the things
start to come into a process.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I would have said my entire journey of religion,
devotion, spirituality.
I would have sworn to you thatit was about love.
I mean, I could tell you theverses about love I would have,
I would have directed you, butthen I would have said but love
does this, love requires this.
And then, really coming to this, unraveling that love does not
(22:12):
coerce.
There is no coercion in love.
Love just loves, because that'swhat love does.
That begins to pull out thepins when you have constructed a
deity who has a lot ofrequirements.
Yeah, instead of saying just,we're delighted in, we're made
(22:33):
in God's own image, god delightsin us.
We're loved and held andbeloved.
And finding our way back tothat self, that's part of the
journey.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
You know it's interesting you talked about
that pin because I was justthinking there's many things,
even in this conversation, butconversations that we've had and
we'll have, there's lynch pinissues, Absolutely.
Absolutely Are things that youknow, once you kind of get a
breakthrough or or begin to dealwith that, all the dominoes
start falling or all thetumblers get falling in place or
or whatever.
And you, you said just a momentago I mean that is such a
(23:09):
loaded statement You'll begin tolove myself.
Because you know there's aspiritual and I don't want to I
use that term loosely or, like aChristian, I use that term
loosely kind of a pushback onanyone saying love yourself,
because it feels very selfishand fundamentally wrong.
(23:30):
But then we can't argue withthe words of Christ, you know,
and you know, and he's sayingthat all the laws fulfilled in
loving your neighbor as yourself.
So there clearly is thisimportance and, and I think it
could be easily understood thatI'm really never going to love
any people any better than Ilove myself.
(23:52):
And when I, when I have shame orI I don't, I wouldn't say for
me it's shame as much as I'vehad an outright disdain for me
most of my life.
Yeah, and there's just this andI mean I'd never really admit
it, but just this, just disgustabout me, you know, and it was
(24:15):
from failing, because failingmeant pain, failing meant
embarrassment, you know just,you know any of my weakness or
shortcoming made me look lessthan a man, and I just didn't
need that kind of spotlightshine on how I already felt
about myself.
So there's just, you know, thethe.
You turn it in other, differentways sometimes, to drink,
(24:36):
drinking drugs or whatever.
For me it was just outrightmeanness and anger towards
everyone around me, because ifI'm that hard on myself, my kids
don't have a chance, my wifedoesn't have a chance, and so
you know, those are, those arebig statements that you're
making.
You know, so casually, jerry,love myself.
You know, I mean I'm like, youknow, I feel people could push
(24:58):
back on that, but I mean we knowfundamentally that's what
Christ is saying, and so it's abigger deal maybe than we've
ever made it, and somehow itjust it gets swept to the side
in the average Christian walk orspiritual journey, and to me
(25:19):
it's the lichman, yeah Well thechallenge is right, we, this, we
, we walk around with it.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Thought there's something wrong with us, a lot
of us right, and there's thisthing of no, there's something
wrong with me.
So if I start to love myself,then I'm going to take that to
the most wrong side of thatright.
I'm going to overly indulge themto become selfish.
Well, but if you understandthat loving yourself isn't going
down a rabbit hole ofself-destruction or it's not
(25:46):
going down a rabbit hole of, youknow, not loving others, it's
actually returning to who weactually authentically are.
I love what Richard Rohr talksabout the original blessing.
Right, we focus so much on ouroriginal sin, but there is the
original blessing where God saidyou are good, very good, and
(26:07):
what was the original sin,so-called in the Old Testament
in the Garden of Eden?
It was don't eat this tree,because in the moment that you
do right, you're going to knowthe difference between.
It's the tree of knowledge ofgood and evil, right.
And I wonder if in that therewas the classification that we
then did, which is these are thegood parts about me and these
(26:27):
are the bad parts about me.
And we and ourselvesconstructed that identity that
there's this really bad stuffabout me and there's really this
, this good stuff about me.
And when we focus in on theshame that just starts to show
up in our lives a lot more, andrealizing that, no, even God
(26:47):
said very good, and then youknow, you see it through.
Like you said love yourneighbor as you love yourself.
And just from my story, it'sjust mine.
In rehab last day there wasthis little graduation ceremony
and it was other saying words ofaffirmations about me, and then
(27:10):
I had to say a word ofaffirmation about myself.
How hard was that?
Oh, it was so hard right,because what I did in my
drinking was to quiet the noiseabout hating myself.
I drank so I could tolerate myown presence, right, so I could
just be with even myself and notlike hating myself.
In those moments and thatthought of there's something
(27:31):
wrong with me fundamentally andI know a lot of people resonate
with that sense and that feelingand I as I it was really hard
to make that statement or to saysomething positive about myself
.
But the words that came justalmost out of my soul were I am
worthy of my own love.
Wow, and that shifted somethingin me then made me go on a
(27:56):
journey of why did I not believethat I was?
Why did I believe that I wasunworthy of my own love?
Because as long as I believed Iwas unworthy of my love, I
didn't feel comfortablereceiving God's love.
There was a barrier because mysystem internally wasn't
comfortable with love, because Icouldn't give love to myself.
I couldn't receive love fromothers because I fundamentally
(28:19):
didn't believe I was worthy oflove.
Goes back to childhood stuff.
But it also went into myChristian faith system of what I
believed and what I thought itwas supposed to do in order to
be loved by God.
I attached a tube.
My existence neededjustification, and so I needed
to do certain things in order toprove my love and my worthiness
(28:43):
.
And then, as I realized that no.
I'm love because I draw breath.
I'm love because I was made and, yeah, I think people push back
on that thought of lovingourselves because we're so
hardwired to not love ourselves,but it's the most freeing thing
that I've experienced in mylife.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
I was talking to Nathaniel a couple of weeks ago
and he was joking with me, buthe said could he go work out on
Sabbath and cause he goes to thegym and does his workout?
And I said, oh, I think thatwould be amazing for you,
because I know how much you loveit and I know how much joy it
brings you and just it helps you.
And I said remember, that'swhat the Sabbath is all about to
(29:26):
remind us.
It's not any productivity, it'snot anything we do, it's just a
day to remember You're beingheld, you're being loved, you're
being provided for, you arebeing cared for, just because
you exist.
And so I think that for a longtime in Christian faith, people
have maybe I forgot to mentionthat- that that day could be a
(29:50):
day set aside every single weekjust to remember your
belovedness, just to rememberjoy, just to remember nothing I
do matters in a bed.
I mean, obviously, things we domatter, but I just mean that's
not the reason I'm loved orcared for or worthy, that just
my own being is worthiness.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
You know, when you're talking about this kind of a
thing, you know there's alwaysthat treachery, yeah,
nervousness that we're gettingnew agey now, next thing you're
gonna be smoking weed anddropping acid or something like
that.
And you know, and I'm remindedthings.
(30:32):
I don't know why.
It just helps me, it makes mefeel more grounded or connected
when I see things in scripturethat are just so blatantly
exactly what we're talking about, because this is not trippy
stuff, that just is a new ageything and I think that's a
clever trick of the enemy tokeep people away from like their
truest self and really havingthat kind of self love.
(30:54):
That would inspire us to trulylove other people and truly love
God, you know.
But for us to kind of thinkthat's exactly what Paul was
struggling with in Romans sevenand then eight.
Are we inherently evil?
Are we inherently good?
You know, I was preaching everyfor like three or four years I
(31:17):
was.
I did once a month.
I did this little.
I don't know what kind of achurch it was some
denominational church.
I did there.
You know what's a chapel forthe kids in the school and I
preach that you're good.
You know, out of out of Romanseven there and they never let
(31:39):
me back in the church again.
And little sixth graders werestanding up rebuking me because
they just that didn't compute intheir doctrine.
You know that we're scum, right, that we're all garbage.
God's mad at you and he'll just, I don't know, I guess he'll
just let you in.
But so sick of you, you know,and it's like wait a minute, you
(32:01):
know, paul sitting there going,you know I do what's wrong, but
it's not me, it's sin in myflesh, you know, but I, you know
, so I'm, I'm, you know, madegood and I'm, you know, but it's
, and I'm not evil, but I doevil thing.
So he struggled with this kindof thing and we and we realized
that that that's all part ofthis kind of coming to a
(32:24):
realization, that that we areworth love, we're worth you know
, yeah, and it seems to be thething where one of the things
that we're really afraid of, theconcept of true self love, and,
like you said, we'll, we'llactually go.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Oh, that sounds new age, you.
Well, why would you let, whywould you brand it that way and
let that experience be robbedfrom you because of a label that
, well, it could be this thingover here.
When you see the theme throughscripture as love and, as you
begin to really understand, madein the image of God, okay, and
(33:02):
you really begin to look at thefact that you know are, I think,
fundamentally, humans are goodand humans are love.
That's where the image of God.
So therefore we and God is love.
So therefore we're love and aswe put the emphasis, we go well,
why is there evil in the world?
Why is all this?
Well, if we focus our energy youknow what they talk about in
(33:26):
neuroscience that where youplace your attention and where
you place is where you placeyour energy and the thing that
we're focusing on.
We're just feeding it so muchmore that if we were to say,
well, maybe I'll focus in on thelove and the goodness that's
inside of me, maybe that beginsto grow and I become more by
just naturally focusing on that.
(33:49):
That just becomes more of who Iam and I'm not, you know,
trying to.
You know, focus on getting ridof these bad things of me.
I'm just trying to figure outhow do I let the authentic me
shine.
Which is authentic me is love.
We talk out of two sides of ourmouth.
Right, it was like, well, we'remade in the image of God and
God is love, and we're fearfullyand wonderfully made and you
(34:12):
know all these and love yourneighbor as yourself.
Well, I have to love myselffirst, but there's like I don't
know.
But we're, we're fundamentallybad, we're horrible sinners
because of the fall, and youknow the stuff, and it's like
now maybe we've just placed somuch focus in that in our life,
that that's what we just keepseeing and what we keep
gravitating towards, and as weplace the emphasis on love, that
(34:32):
that's what begins to show upmore in our life.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I can almost hear people pushing back on what
we're saying right now, andthat's okay.
But I do think again if youdon't turn loose, there's some
stuff that's not serving you.
You're never really going tomove into what God has for you,
and I don't think anything thatwe're saying is not.
Uh, it doesn't bring hope andbring Christ.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
You've been listening to season two of the so much
more podcast with Dennis andHeather Drink.
We want to take a moment andexpress our sincerest thanks for
the investment of your time andif you're interested in
continuing conversation or moreinformation about what we
discussed, please email us at somuch more podcast at gmailcom.
If you're interested in some ofthe creative projects that
(35:17):
Dennis has done, you can findout more information at
drakinsonscom or find us onTwitter at so much more podcast.
We'd love to hear from you.
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