June 27, 2023 • 48 mins
Navigating life's rough seas of anger and vulnerability can be daunting. Drawing from my own experiences and the expert insights of our guest, Brad Nelson, we aim to provide you with a compass to chart this emotional territory. As we journey through these complex landscapes, we underscore the value of recognizing and expressing anger, a process that can be challenging, but ultimately liberating. We also delve into vulnerability as a defense mechanism, an intriguing concept that has recently come to our realization.
A key part of understanding our emotions is learning to name them and take practical steps towards becoming aware of them. Heather, shares her journey of owning her anger. We also engage with the notion that not everything carries moral weight—a revelation that can be incredibly empowering. Furthermore, we explore the potential trap of over-reflecting and the importance of staying grounded in the present. Our discourse leads into the symbolism of Mary consoling Eve, an image that offers a glimmer of hope in the shadows of shame.
Towards the end of our conversation, we advocate for the significance of hearing diverse voices, inspired by the wisdom of Reverend Dr. Howard, John Wesley and Bishop Michael Curry. We address the discomfort that accompanys the evolution of faith and how we can wrestle with the difficult questions that emerge. We encourage you to consider the teachings of Brian Zahnd and historical Christian mystics—a reminder that growth and transformation in faith doesn't equate to abandonment. Join us on this enlightening exploration as we continue our discussion on anger.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heather Drake (00:03):
Welcome to season two of So Much More, a
lifestyle podcast by Dennis andHeather Drake.
So much more is a podcast basedon our lives, eclectic and
inspired, one whererelationships are honored and
invested in.
We invite you to join us as wecontinue a lifestyle and a
(00:23):
lifelong discussion.
Dennis Drake (00:25):
Hey, this is Dennis.
Thanks so much for listening toour podcast.
I just ask you that, if you'reenjoying it, if you'd remember
to subscribe or follow the show,like it, however that all works
, i would ask you to pleasereview it.
If you take that time, thatreally does help us get the show
out there.
But anyways, just want to letyou know you're listening to
(00:47):
part three of a three partseries of a conversation that
Heather and I had with BradNelson.
Listen as Heather and I andBrad discuss anger.
I will say this about Heatherin terms of her anger.
Well, this is also an expectedbluff Drum roll please, that it
was only until like a year ortwo ago that she read whatever
(01:10):
book that she read, or you know,or maybe it was the, it was the
progression of of, becauseyou've been working on the, the
um Enneagram for a lot longerthan a couple of years.
But anyways, whenever youpresented to me the idea that
that I might have anger, becauseI just thought, honest to God,
that was what was weird.
It's like she's able to livethis life and not manifest, not
(01:32):
deal, not have anger.
It was my perception.
So so then she's going okay,maybe I do have it, but you know
there's people that turn it inthe way that I do.
This is the atypical, you know,which is kind of outward.
Or or then they internalize anddo you know, either resentment
or blah, blah, blah, you knowwhatever.
And so so she talked about uh,okay, now this is one of the if
(01:57):
I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but you said it's
one of the hardest things thatI've maybe the hardest thing
I've ever faced is like well, igot to start dealing with this,
so.
So then she goes.
So then she was really testingthe ice, kind of like uh, you
know, before she again, you gotto understand the dynamic.
(02:17):
She grew up in a house where hermother uh, would, would, at
times had beat her, unconscious,you know, and then she was like
I got to do whatever I can tokeep from making her mad.
So, in other words, she justdanced, played the game, and
then she married an angry manand then she had to do this
dance or whatever.
So that was her.
She was so busy doing all thesethings.
(02:38):
And then our relationship hasgrown to the point where I think
, by her own admission, shedoesn't have to be as afraid as
she used to be of me.
I'm not saying that she's freeand clear of this and I give her
no reason to.
But at the same time now sheknows we actually can't have
hard conversations and I don'tlose it and and are mean and and
threatened and blah, blah, blah.
(02:59):
So.
So all of a sudden now she'sstarting to test the size, and I
said all of that to say thatwhen she tries to be angry she's
horrible.
I need myself incompetent.
Heather Drake (03:14):
I told you.
Dennis Drake (03:16):
And I second that, And I second that in the way
that I will say that she likelike it's amazing to me because
like, ooh, that was real hurtfulWhat you just said, or that was
real, or that seems like reallydisproport or whatever.
And then it was like Don's onme, It's like, oh, she's never
done this.
So again, there's that part ofof when the person you love
(03:37):
comes at you at all.
you want to defend, you want toaccuse, you want to.
but what if you could step backand go oh, this person's trying
a new thing, You know.
and what if we could reallykind of do that with everything,
Like, oh, I'm bumping upagainst something.
It must be something you'reterrible at, because this is not
going well, but instead wealways take it like very
(03:58):
personal.
You know like, because thethings that she said were in
fact personal, but from a guywho's, who's, i mean like I'm
ninja level angry and mean atthat.
So so when she approaches thisoh that was adorable, Your
little triad.
Brad Nelson (04:16):
You know what I mean, so I wasn't able to like.
Dennis Drake (04:18):
I could have taken offense because it was, you
know, in some ways hurtfulthings, but it was like she
wasn't any good at it.
But then I'm like, okay, ican't have it.
And I said all of that to saythis too I can't have it two
ways I, i, she can either wallup and be that person who keeps
me at a distance because she hasto keep all that together, or I
can invite her into thisintimate, vulnerable place, but
(04:42):
then the minute she comes outand does it wrong, i punish her
for it.
Brad Nelson (04:45):
Yeah.
Dennis Drake (04:46):
Yeah, so that's the thing too.
when you're dealing with peopleon all of this, it's like how
do we invite them out into thatvulnerability and then that
punish them for it?
Brad Nelson (04:58):
Yeah, yeah, and you know there's, there's, there's
another dimension to it for methat I have just discovered in
this whole season of learningand awareness, that I use
vulnerability as a defensemechanism.
Heather Drake (05:16):
So I stand at the other end of that.
Brad Nelson (05:21):
So I I just recently realized, um, i will
frequently in conversation withpeople and some of this is
genuine, like I am genuinelyfascinated to ask questions and
to learn about people Like I wow, you do that for a living, tell
me about that.
(05:41):
I don't know anything aboutthat, and it can be very easy
for me to just get so enrapturedwith the conversation that I
just keep asking you rapid firequestions about you.
And I've had people over theyears repeatedly say to me you
know what are these days?
we need to talk about you.
Like I need to ask somequestions about you.
And I'm aware that, uh, i havea very disarming way of using
(06:10):
vulnerability to keep you atyour gutifully bad speed to
invite a level of being known.
Heather Drake (06:21):
But it's only what you've already metered out.
I will allow this.
This is what I think you won'tbe so grossed out by that we
could still have conversationback.
I would still be invited back.
It is a lot like and I say thisbecause I do that, so no
judgment, i just recognize it.
This is us, you know.
Don't pull the curtain all theway back Or like in a theater.
(06:42):
There's a first curtain.
We're not talking about thecurtain behind the curtain that
all the acting is happening atThis is the one we've said now,
this is the play and this iswhat we've scripted.
And then there's the blackcurtain, When someone's standing
with a bag of sand, do notpress this button.
Brad Nelson (07:00):
So, yeah, i just feel like there are all these
layers to it, you know, and.
But I love.
Carl Jung says a wrote that 90%of the shadow is pure gold.
So what I really enjoy aboutthis is, as you bring all this
stuff into awareness, youdiscover wow, there's actually a
lot of beauty here, a lot ofgoodness to be used, and, oh boy
(07:27):
, it's not fun.
It is not a fun journey.
Heather Drake (07:31):
But it is a call into awakening, into a new way
of being, and I think thatobviously that is the maturity
that we're hoping for.
I think that in some minds, theidea of maturity is what now do
you know?
And I think that ultimatelythis is just my opinion but
knowing yourself, that's wherethe being able to meet God, in
(07:53):
that I know who I am and mybelovedness and my worthiness
and how that relates to anger,but also how I present
vulnerability.
You were talking about yourwillingness to offer
vulnerability as a player placeof connection, but there's
somebody.
I forget who it is, but theysaid people live their whole
lives and they're un-listened to.
(08:13):
So very often, when people arelistened to, they can't
extinguish the feeling of beinglistened to and loved.
They actually, it feels lovingand in the presence of love.
Aren't we all transformed?
So there is that idea oftransformation only happens when
we're listened to.
And in part of being angry isknowing, even if no one listens
(08:34):
to me, god can, or can I eventake the place to be able to say
I'm investigating this anger,why do I feel this way?
And then listen and say it'svalid, meet it with not well,
for my issue of resentment.
I find that contempt is realclose.
So, instead of that contemptfor myself for not being aware
that somebody else needs againmy responsibility to guess
(08:56):
someone's needs.
I think that that's a scriptthat they've given a pastor's
wife and said this is your jobto do this And being able to
turn that back over and go.
No, what it needs is compassion.
I need compassion.
This part of me, whether it'sego or whether it's spirit or
whatever it is.
There is pain and I needcompassion.
And then how to actually beable to cultivate and say how
(09:20):
can I be compassionate?
Dennis Drake (09:23):
You know, there's so many of the aspects of our
relationship that we expectpeople to be psychic in, you
know, like you should just knowthis, and I think that if we can
kind of go at it with the ideathat no people don't unless you
tell them, and then we have tokind of, i think that's the risk
(09:44):
, because that's where, in orderto do that, you have to be
vulnerable, and so do I.
Have the people in my life thathave proven trustworthy, or I'm
willing to try and thenverbalize those things, because
they seem so obvious to us, butthey're not.
(10:05):
They're masked by the fact thatwe got our own issues going on,
and so I can't see as clear asyou think that it is for me
until you tell me, and so Ithink, more times than not,
there are good people around usthat if we would be vulnerable
enough to share with them, theywould help carry your burdens.
And like you, said even if not,we do know that God will never
(10:27):
leave us forsaken.
Brad Nelson (10:28):
Yeah, and you know, trust is built consistently
over time.
So you it's.
I think Brene Brown isborrowing from John Gottman, but
she uses the image of a marblejar, that there are these little
sliding door moments where youeither see me or you don't, and
(10:48):
if you turn aside and see me,you deposit a marble in the jar
and you get enough of thoselittle micro moments.
Trust is built right And, butwhen it comes to vulnerability,
like with people you don't know,somebody's gotta go first.
Yeah but there are all kinds oflittle micro ways that I arrived
(11:13):
at the conclusion that you'resafe people And we know when
we're in the presence of aperson who's safe, like I've
been talking with my wife overthe years what it's like to be a
woman in a world where womenare constantly objectified and
looked at, and a woman knowswhen she's being ogled, she
(11:36):
knows when she's walking througha parking lot and that's a
dangerous presence.
Right, there's just thisknowledge And, in the same way,
we may not have like deeprelationship with people, but we
do have these very subtlesensors for knowing that you
know what.
I think this person is a safeone.
(11:56):
I think that this is a safeplace to venture out onto the
ice and give it a try, and Iabsolutely felt that with you
guys, which is why I was willingto risk vulnerability.
Heather Drake (12:10):
Well, we're honored by that too.
Recognizing that is a gift.
when somebody presents thefirst part of my story, well,
the feeling is mutual thatyou're very valued and respected
.
Dennis Drake (12:17):
But I think that you know it just.
Hopefully it just demonstratesto anyone that might be
listening to that these kind ofrelationships are highly
valuable.
They're so helpful And so thatthey are to be treasured when
they're found and sought after.
In that sense, you know,heather and I were kind of
(12:37):
lamenting the other day aboutthe fact that our relationship
You were very much lamenting.
Heather Drake (12:42):
Yeah, that our relationship with you and.
Dennis Drake (12:44):
Tricia is just now getting to the place that it is
.
Heather Drake (12:47):
We were looking at that.
they've been here 10 freakingyears, Yeah, and so why?
Dennis Drake (12:52):
did we miss the boat on that, but anyways, watch
this third try.
So, heather, why don't you helpus?
Because there are peoplelistening that might approach
anger from your standpoint, andso they might and might benefit
them to hear, like, how are youapproaching it?
(13:13):
Okay, i hear you that readingwould be a way that works for
you to gather information, but Isee you making a lot of
practical steps too.
Heather Drake (13:24):
And one of the things that's been very helpful
to me at least in the awarenessand actually has, i feel, like a
gift to people who are tryingto walk alongside of me through
this particular journey isnaming the things, is actually
taking the power given to go.
This is what it is, and insteadof dismissing it or living life
disembodied from it, this iswhat it is.
(13:45):
And then sometimes for me, theissue is does that sound like
complaining?
Does it sound?
I'm constantly?
there's some people who are notaware and don't do any self
reflection.
I'm overly reflecting, you know, like there's this idea of you
get to just be in the moment too.
It doesn't have to be a defenseof why you live your life.
There's a presence now.
So, naming something and goingI am in pain right now, or I am
(14:08):
frustrated right now, or I amangry at this And then giving
hope to someone to say you'reallowed to be angry or
justification for the anger, notin the morality of.
There was a gift to me when Icame across this idea.
It wasn't mine, but I cameacross it and it was a real gift
that not everything hasmorality tied to it, and that
(14:29):
was shocking because literallyin my life.
In my consciousness, there wasmorality tied to everything.
Everything I did was-.
Dennis Drake (14:38):
That's a whole podcast.
Heather Drake (14:39):
It is was it right?
was it in scripture?
What kind of justification?
why would I do this?
What is the result of this?
What will they think of it?
Will it be two, I think, one,of the issues of living life as
a person-.
Dennis Drake (14:49):
It must be exhausting to be in your brain.
Heather Drake (14:50):
Yes, it is and it goes so fast I mean, it's rapid
fire.
Can this person handle thiskind of pain?
Do you even want them to handleit, will they?
what will they do with it later?
Like?
those are big questions becausein my life, especially again
going back to being a smallchild and making decisions that
weren't mine to make, makinglife and death, or what felt
(15:10):
like life and death situations,was what will happen later once
you have this information.
And so very often to me it'sjust better not to give you that
information, because I don'teven know.
We talked about this and it'sone of the things that makes you
.
what has incited anger for youis a constant asking of what do
you think about this?
And I say I don't know.
(15:31):
And he's like, of course youknow what you're thinking.
And I'm like, yeah, that's notthe question, though.
It's not what I'm thinking,it's how will you respond to
what I'm thinking?
How will I respond to what I'mthinking?
What these?
Dennis Drake (15:41):
thoughts will do.
Maybe I'll think somethingdifferent later.
Heather Drake (15:42):
Yeah, no, there's a one chance, once and done
deal.
So I'm hesitant very often totalk about that, but the
practice of naming things hasbeen really helpful.
This is an injustice.
This is wrong.
This is not now the judgmentthat comes after it.
That needs to be.
You know, allow spirit to comein there.
But this idea of what is itlike to name it, to be given
(16:05):
autonomy or to even take it?
Somebody asked what I was doingabout patriarchy and the very
fact that we still are in aworld where they're just, and
we've mentioned it, and I loveAdvent for this you get to see
the story of God's redemptionthrough the lens of a woman, and
there's that piece of art thatI love, and around Advent, and
it's Mary Consoles Eve, and theimagery by this nun that was
(16:31):
gifted to the world is Eve hasthis look of shame and Mary is
taking her hand and putting iton her very pregnant belly, like
inviting hope, even when theshame is so big.
Here's the hope that comes withthat And then recognizing,
because here's where thatmorality is.
(16:51):
Then, well, am I at any pointbeing Eve or am I being Mary?
But I think the point is thatwe're both.
There's parts of us that needto be nurtured and compassion.
And then there's other parts ofus that you know I I was
listening to somebody else'sadvent truth and they were
saying the gift of advent, inlooking at both of these people,
(17:13):
is Eve said I'll take it andMary said just let it be.
There's a different posture inkeeping yourself safe and having
to take that knowledge.
And, dennis, i've been talkingso much about the invitation, is
the tree of knowledge good andevil or the tree of life?
(17:34):
And how often we are at the treeof knowledge just trying to
figure it out which is why bookshave been helpful, but in the
essence of spirit and what thatlooks like for us to cultivate
the voice of spirit so we canstay in those places of life.
Dennis Drake (17:50):
So you know, if I'm hearing you say that an
approach for anger can be justto rest and not have to act,
have to respond, have to think,to just kind of name things or
what they are, you know, or inthe emotions that you're having,
and to me I've observed thatwith you And that's something
that I'm trying to adopt in myown life, because to me there
(18:16):
has to then be that response.
But what if that?
you know?
what if that's true?
that scientific report, youknow that 15 seconds is really
when the anger is, and it's whatwe do with it after, and so we
are-.
Heather Drake (18:28):
But what we connect it to?
there are thoughts that weconnect it to that, make it
bigger.
Dennis Drake (18:31):
And so what if you don't, instead of going?
Heather Drake (18:33):
what is in the presence?
what is this practice ofpresence?
I wanted the books that I love,and again, this can be a really
long list, but practicing thepresence of God by Brother.
Andrew and this idea that youcan meet up with the divine
while you're peeling potatoes,while you're mindful of what is
happening right now and how thatrelates to, you know, breath,
prayers, or how that relates topaying attention to this, that
(18:54):
we are ultimately not alone,that we are not, that there is a
oneness that Jesus prayed forAnd for all of us, that if we
could experience this oneness,that somehow Jesus, you know,
was able to live fully human butfully connected to the Father,
in so much that his connectionwas not ruined by him.
Quoting David, who said I feellike you've abandoned me, you
(19:16):
know, we know that not to betrue, but in this moment it
feels like abandonment, butfeeling so comfortable that you
could say let it be.
And then I love that, obviously, that Jesus is saying the same
thing that he heard his mothertalk to him about.
You know, she says let it be tothe angel, and he says in
response the same song thatshe's saying you're will be done
, not mine.
He makes it his own, but we'veheard that lyric before You know
(19:40):
.
it is in that her let it be.
And I love that idea of I sentyou a little Instagram thing
about it And this is a muchbigger maybe podcast.
but Mary was offered aninvitation and it was for her,
the ability to consent.
Sometimes we feel like Mary.
(20:00):
just you know, god showed upand made a proclamation and
that's just what it was.
But this idea to co-create withGod is a beautiful invitation,
especially during Advent.
Brad Nelson (20:10):
Yeah, consensual Christmas.
Heather Drake (20:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Dennis Drake (20:15):
That's good.
One of the things we always doat the end of the podcast is and
you started to do it therepreemptively is mention some
things that would be helpful forthose people that do read or
that don't, and should, maybebecause you know the
conversation that we're having.
It's not like things will getsolved by one conversation, But
(20:40):
I think these kinds ofconversations find us at the
right point in our life when weneed them.
So I just gotta believe that atsome point there's an
intersection for somebody inthis conversation And what would
help them on that journey?
What would you wanna say tosomebody else that's in that
same journey?
And so I'd ask both of you guysthat question.
You know, what would yourecommend that we that maybe we
(21:06):
look into, cause I'm just sograteful that you have shared
some of the things that you'veshared with me.
You know, and you know myconversations with Jerry, and
you know, of course, myconversation with you, brad,
have just, you know, helped meon this journey, you know.
So sometimes the books we reador and you know you could
(21:30):
technically say you read it ifyou listen to it on.
Brad Nelson (21:33):
Audible, it doesn't matter.
Dennis Drake (21:35):
Yeah, it's a.
what's the word?
Technicality?
you don't have to admit thatyou listen to the book.
You can say I read it.
Was the information still givento you?
Cause the information wasimparted?
Heather Drake (21:46):
Exactly, and you know, much of the world history
is an oral tradition.
We didn't I mean up until theprinting press.
Dennis Drake (21:53):
You were reading the book.
You could read a shamelessnon-readers with all the books
that you read, so I figured away to sneak it into that.
I read it.
Heather Drake (22:00):
If I heard it, you're free from shame and from
judgment.
The information is what it wasintended, not necessarily the
modality, the mark on the page,which is a deeper magic still.
That's one of the reasons Ilove no.
for me, reading was an escapefrom people's you know very
angry world that they kind ofhead trapped me in So I could
read about Narmia in a deepermagic still.
Dennis Drake (22:22):
Kind of love that.
So what else would yourecommend?
Heather Drake (22:25):
I love a lot of black women authors.
Obviously, they have a lot tosay about anger and a lot to say
about, and they need to belistened to in that same kind of
place.
And so there's a bajillion now.
One of the books that has beenjust beautiful to me is one
Women Were Birds a lot by NedraTwab.
Right now, and then payingattention to, you know, voices
(22:48):
that have been in a minority,looking at that and going what
is it like for us to listen toMarlena Graves, who said the way
up is down, you know, and again, these teachers that have so
much to say about livingdifferently.
Dennis Drake (23:00):
A long time ago, you know, cs Lewis had said that
you know, when reading it wouldbe important to read historical
and contemporary in alternatingfashion, versus, and so and I
would add to that that it's beenmy experience that most people
read like-minded people.
Heather Drake (23:20):
Oh, right, right yeah.
Dennis Drake (23:22):
So the Middle-Age White guy is gonna have a
collection of Middle-Age Whiteguy books.
So the thing that Heather's,the idea that Heather's
presenting there is that youknow how many Middle-Age White
guys have read a Black womanauthor And of course you know I
think there has to be a thread.
You know, if you're a spiritualperson, that there would be a
(23:45):
spiritual you know that wouldconnect you with that author.
You know, i'm not just sayingrandomly pull a book because a
Black lady wrote it, but I'msaying that there are Black
female theologians.
Heather Drake (23:57):
Willa Gaffney is awesome.
Dennis Drake (23:58):
You have a voice that is you're void of Unless
you were to hear thatperspective.
Just because of their lifeexperience and the God that's in
them and versus you know theirexperiences has just brought a
voice that you're not gonna.
That Middle-Age White guy isjust not, is just you know.
Heather Drake (24:20):
And then so so yeah, So I think like Tony
Morrissey, i think of MayaAngelou, i think of people like
that who are just like bellhooks, just brilliant thinkers.
And again, we live in a timewhere we don't always get to sit
at a table with those people,but through a book we get to
have almost a one-sidedconversation, but we do get to
hear that idea.
(24:40):
You were talking about thisstudy that you've done in Ruth
and I'm like I wonder if you'veread.
The Women's Midrash of thisidea of that book has a lot to
say.
I love it when people I don'tlove it.
I actually hate it.
It makes me feel sick to mystomach when people misinterpret
those things and then, you know, try to cage people, or so I
(25:02):
have a yeah.
It makes my skin itchy Whenthey start saying you know, did
you read this?
I'm like, do you have any ideawhat you are talking about?
Have you read it in context?
is my as a clarion call for me.
Don't just take off that oneverse, read it in context.
And then also, you know,recognizing reading the women,
who are not just women, but infact there's a beautiful poet
(25:24):
who is.
He's got some other stuffthat's fantastic on Instagram.
God speaks through wombs.
Dennis Drake (25:31):
I just remember Drew Jackson did that was.
Heather Drake (25:33):
Yeah, fantastic.
Dennis Drake (25:34):
I just remember the first, like you know, time.
I mean this would have been awhile back, but you and I
started kind of like findingbooks of Christian ministers
that were outside of ourdenomination And that seemed
like very risky, like we were,you know, some up on guard kind
of a whatever ooh, check us out,we're you know.
(25:55):
But then in finding, like thisparticular author from this
denomination, it's, you know,kind of like maybe we don't have
a lot of connection with, butthere's still a brilliant
thinker and God speaking throughthat, and so all of a sudden
that began to this journey ofgoing.
You know why would we limitGod's voice?
you know, in any other placethat we would.
(26:16):
So I know you can't really saysomething, but I wanted to add.
Heather Drake (26:19):
I was because you had mentioned earlier that you
had some, you know, brought youra little bit of wisdom from
Richard Rohr who brings?
again from a differenttradition, i think.
As a child, when I learned toread, i learned to read quickly
and I was stuck because Icouldn't go to the library.
The library head from schoolwas only during school.
(26:39):
You know, like you couldn't assmall children, you can't take
them home.
You can read them at school.
So I was stuck with mygrandmother's library And but it
did allow me from a very earlyage to read books that were like
bigger than I was.
I wasn't stuck with children'sbooks And I feel so grateful for
that, like there are thingsthat I didn't always understand.
(27:01):
But I was eight years old and Iwas reading a book by an Indian
mystic, Sutter Sundar Singh.
I love that.
And yeah, and books like thatagain, then I would offer to
people the knowledge that Imyself, as a seven year old, had
read with no understanding, notallowing it to change me first,
but I was just gonna proclaimwhat I have and I got myself
(27:24):
into lots of trouble by that,But the idea that I had books
that were available that werebeyond the scope of what I knew
or what.
And again, I don't think thatonly black women have voices,
but I think that they have.
It is our responsibility tomake sure that who we listen to
is the diverse prophets that sayto us you know, the kingdom is
(27:46):
coming, It's so close, it's evenright here, Yeah.
Dennis Drake (27:50):
Well asking you, brad than that same question.
You know, based on thisconversation, is there anything
that rises up in your heart thatyou would maybe share with the
listeners?
Brad Nelson (27:58):
I mean I've been answered in two ways.
One is like, as it relates toanger.
You know we mentioned SusanDavid's book Emotional Legility.
She's a South African author,just brilliant, brilliant
speaker.
That's a fantastic book.
You know, richard Rohr's stuffon breathing underwater
(28:19):
spirituality in the 12 stepsgets into a whole section on
resentment and anger.
That just took me to thewoodshed.
You know, kent Dobson issomebody who I've worked with at
different points in my life andhe has a podcast called Hints
and Guesses And he's got apodcast that I have gone back to
(28:41):
over and over and over and overcalled The Hidden Gifts of
Anger.
That's just fantastic.
But then, like speaking morebroadly, with kind of what we
were just talking about, likeNedra is somebody that my wife
and I are talking about all thetime And I don't even know what
her last name is.
You said it Twab Twab.
Heather Drake (29:01):
Glover first.
Brad Nelson (29:02):
yeah, So I just know, because we keep talking
like I see her.
Heather Drake (29:06):
Instagram account .
She's the only person that Iknow named Nedra.
So we're fine when I first madebest faces.
We talk about Nedra a lot, butman one of the You and she has a
new book coming out, i think ofthe year.
Brad Nelson (29:17):
Yes, i just saw that.
In fact it's on my I shouldn'tsay this on the podcast.
Heather Drake (29:22):
Oh, it's on something else.
Brad Nelson (29:23):
Yeah, well, no, I'm gonna get it for my wife for
Christmas.
Heather Drake (29:26):
So we'll just cut that out.
Dennis Drake (29:27):
Hopefully.
Yeah, well, i won't hear it intwo weeks, Okay, yeah, so you're
good, i won't hear it.
It's on Christmas, you can,unless you forget.
Brad Nelson (29:33):
Man, one of the biggest voices that's kind of
like shaping my life along thelines of.
I am really intentionallylistening outside of kind of the
, the Richard Roars of my world,which I they're like me, right,
so I find those, i come bythose voices pretty naturally.
(29:55):
But there is anAfrican-American minister in DC
Actually, i think it'sAlexandria.
I might be saying that wrong,but Alfred Street Baptist Church
in Virginia, the Reverend DrHoward John Wesley.
Heather Drake (30:16):
This dude he went Yeah, but then you could also
read James Baldwin, you couldalso read Cohn, you could also.
Brad Nelson (30:23):
But he went viral for a sermon that he did after
what happened with TrayvonMartin And I'm just telling you,
like that guy, I want to heareverything he has to say.
Heather Drake (30:39):
I also want to hear everything that Bishop
Michael Curry talks about.
His understanding of the loveof Christ is revolutionary And
everybody should be listening tohim.
Yeah.
Dennis Drake (30:48):
You know, and so as diverse as people are in the
way that they look, imagine ifthat's a reflection of how
diverse God is and his spirithis gifts, you know, and I think
that it is, and so if we justhave this one slice of the pie,
you know we're so bland in our,in our, in our palates, and so I
just, you know, i'm hopefulthat that, through all of these
(31:09):
connections that God would giveus, that that it would create in
us that full, the fullness ofGod, and that that's that people
that are listening wouldn'thave to struggle under the
weight and shame of of anger andin the struggle of of of the
destruction that it brings.
Heather Drake (31:25):
I would also recommend that Audie Cobbler who
is Traysofter.
So, yeah, you know, again,sometimes with anger we want to
meet it with the same fiercenessthat we've been mid gifted with
it, and so there's thissometimes softer is definitely
the way to go.
So, yeah, we could talk aboutwhat books to read all the time
Sometimes.
So you mentioned that anger isa gift or this was on the
(31:47):
podcast, but I would tell youthat I have found it extremely
difficult to claim that gift asmy home.
There are some gifts that arelike easy claimed and there's
others that are like ooh.
Brad Nelson (31:57):
Yeah, well, and I know that they're like, i think,
dallas Willard says BrilliantRead everything.
I'm happy.
I trust Jesus stewarding angerway more than I trust myself,
and so there I do feel like inhis writings there is a little
bit of a caution There should be.
Heather Drake (32:17):
It is for all people that understand it.
it's caustic And the containerthat it's held in is very
important to how much is spilledout on other people.
And then, in my situation,being mindful that it's very
caustic to hold on to it, myself.
So there is a better way ofdoing that, and it is giving it
to Jesus who is capable?
Brad Nelson (32:35):
Yeah, who knows what to do with it?
Who knows how to translude it?
Yes, yeah.
Dennis Drake (32:41):
Well, i appreciate you guys sharing those things
and hopefully people can findwithin that I did want to ask
you about.
I remember I don't know when itwas not relatively recently,
but you were reading the DanAllender book and that probably
made you more angry than I'veseen you get at any book.
Heather Drake (32:58):
He's so provoked, he's such a He's a provocateur,
isn't that He is?
He is so provoking, yes.
Brad Nelson (33:04):
He is.
Dennis Drake (33:05):
You know what I mean.
Because the things that well,and the reason why I remember it
so well is because you're sokind that when you read a book
that challenges you, that youdon't keep that to yourself,
that you allow the confrontationin that book to be shared with
your loved ones and your husband.
Heather Drake (33:25):
And so I just remember, i just appreciate the
way that you said that becausemy family goes because I'll say
can I just read you this onething?
Dennis Drake (33:33):
If it were this one thing, It's not One time
this is what happened.
Heather Drake (33:37):
It wasn't too recently, i mean it wasn't too
long ago.
I said to Dennis can I read youthis one thing?
And he said I got up from mysleep only to use the bathroom.
I'm going for active bed.
But I saw him and I was like,oh, this was good, i was just
reading this.
Dennis Drake (33:52):
He's like I am sleeping.
Heather Drake (33:54):
I only am up for this, Yeah let me tell you this
one thing.
Dennis Drake (33:56):
And then she's, and pretty soon she's like nine
pages into a medical journal.
That has happened Because we,you know, anger is, you know,
they've proven this about youknow and so it's like, okay,
well, just get to the.
You know the cliff notes for me.
I don't want to read themedical journals yet.
Brad Nelson (34:10):
But she's delighted to read them And then sharing
that with you.
Dennis Drake (34:12):
But do you remember the Dana Elnider book?
Heather Drake (34:15):
I do.
Dennis Drake (34:16):
Because I think that that was.
it was one of those thingswhere, when you're ready for
those things, they meet you atthat moment, when you're ready,
it's just like it's time to.
Heather Drake (34:26):
I think the way I respond, or at least I like to
defend my way of response, isbecause in the Jewish tradition,
you say tell me where it'swritten.
Like I want to know, like thisis just your imagination.
And then I was reading someoneRabbi Ruttenberg, she's
wonderful, you should read her,follow her on the Instagram and
stuff.
She's a woman rabbi.
She recommends she was talkingto a Christian person following
(34:49):
and they were asking a questionand she goes I want to show you
how Torah is written.
And then how the comments onTorah is written.
On one hand, the man who saysthis like this is what Rabbi
Herschel says.
Right next to it is written anabsolute contradiction.
And we were talking about thisfact that you know, paul offers
one thing, james offerssomething else.
It seems like they're talkingout of both sides of their faith
(35:10):
.
Either you're saved by faithalone or James is like you have
no faith if there's not works.
You know so.
Either one of them is right orboth can be true at the same
time.
And so there is this incrediblehope.
So in this book called I don'tremember the name of it,
actually, i know that it's blackand red and it's by Allender
And I think it's calledsomething about your story or
the gift of your story.
(35:31):
We can look that up in just aminute.
But in the book of telling yourstory he says if there are any
parts of your story that youwould edit or write out, like
any chapters that you are notlike, grateful for that.
(35:51):
It is an affront to God, who iswriting the story with you.
Brad Nelson (35:54):
Yeah to be told to be told.
Heather Drake (35:55):
That's the name of it, Thank you.
So that to me is offensive,because there are parts of my
story that I wish never happenedAnd there are chapters that I
think as a storyteller, becauseI would write the story this way
There was a beautiful princessand she lived happily ever after
which is a terrible story.
No one would read that.
You know, being able to embracethe dragon, being able to find
(36:16):
out that those kind of thingsare fearless and beautiful
things I want to do, but formost, i mean I want to.
Yeah, i want to look away fromthe chapters that feel like they
contain so much pain, insteadof going back and allowing And.
I think, the invitation is inthat whole book is allow the
spirit to go back and read it toyou.
Dennis and I were talking aboutthis recently, the idea of the
(36:37):
difference in reading scripture,going to scripture, because no
matter if you want the scriptureto say, you can find something
that says just like it.
But if you will allow in maybethe Hebrew tradition, even
starting there, but allow thescriptures to read you, that's a
whole other book.
Brad Nelson (36:56):
Yeah, so two things .
My wife and I had dinner withAlinder once, and this is this.
Heather Drake (37:01):
That was a total power play right there.
Brad Nelson (37:05):
Okay, i mentioned my previous job.
I used to like drop I used toget to bring him in as one of
our speakers.
Well, now we have higherexpectation, Yeah Well he we're
having a meal and Trisha saidsomething and he put down his
fork and he turned and lookedher full in the face and said
you are a deeply troubled woman,and then he went back to eating
(37:29):
.
Heather Drake (37:30):
And did you say from then on, this is what I say
to you, Trisha, when you bringit here, you are as dead now
under prophesies?
Brad Nelson (37:37):
Oh that was so funny.
But then, man, i just I lovethat like two things true at the
same time, yes, and likeholding things in tension, like
even with the Ruth stories.
you've got wait a second.
Deuteronomy 23 says no Moabiteor Ammonite shall enter the
assembly up to the 10thgeneration.
Heather Drake (37:57):
And we got yeah, exactly, but Ruth's a Moabite,
jesus comes from her.
Yeah.
Brad Nelson (38:01):
She's the grandmother of King David, the
greatest King we have.
So and then it's like well,which one is it then?
Then you got this like thisforeign wife.
but then you got Ezra Nehemiah.
that's all about like doingaway with foreign wives, And
it's all there in the sacredtext, sitting side by side, And
what do you do with that?
Or, most of us seem to shut oureyes to it.
Dennis Drake (38:22):
Well, and to me, you know, there I've just found
such comfort in going.
Well, like you know, if I wereto approach it as a legal
document, there's some holes init.
You know, if I were to approachit as this rule book, that's
absolute and it's not consistentat times And it's not all
(38:48):
encompassing, for sure You know.
So, you know, is it a fable?
Is it a useless thing?
Is it just some literature?
You know, i believe it's somuch more, and so, and to find
its value in the fact that, forme, what it done, what dawned on
(39:10):
me the other day, was soprofound, because I'm literally
in a struggle with this, youknow, as we speak, and I thought
to myself, you know, as afundamentalist, at one point in
my life I found everything Ineeded in the Bible, and
atheists find everything thatthey need to believe, what they
believe in the Bible.
You know what I mean.
(39:31):
And well, look there, i foundit in the Bible and that's proof
for my case.
And so I thought, i thought, itrose up in me.
That is a supernatural book If afundamentalist can be satisfied
with it and an atheist can besatisfied with it, and a person
(39:52):
who believes that it is nothingmore than literature or any one
of the.
So the book is a supernaturalbook and that is profound to me.
And so, as a supernatural book,if something glowing fell from
the sky and we were confidentthat was a UFO that wasn't, i
(40:12):
would approach it differentlythan if, you know, i dropped
your cell phone.
I know what to do with aniPhone.
You know I would approach thatextraterrestrial thing with.
Let's find out what it has forme, not what I can tell, because
I can tell my iPhone what Ineeded to do.
Google, dan Allen.
Brad Nelson (40:31):
There's a book on it, you can be told Yeah, yeah.
Dennis Drake (40:34):
Just a while, while the other person's talking
.
Brad Nelson (40:35):
Yeah.
Dennis Drake (40:36):
I mean I can control that, and so we've
approached the Bible in thatsense of I can control it.
And so then we have.
We've been Bible benders andwe've done this, but to me I'm
just delighting in approachingit as that supernatural book
that that's going to speak to me, that's going to maybe read me,
and that word wasn't originalwith me.
(40:56):
I heard someone say that likelet the book read you, and
Heather, just you know, quotedthere a moment ago.
But in that there is a lot oflife for me there.
Heather Drake (41:08):
And, i think, the invitation to allow spirit to
re-enchant the text for us whenwe've been told it's
encyclopedia.
Let it be an entrance into themystery.
Dennis Drake (41:19):
And who was it that said that of a Christian
that you'll either become amystic or not?
Brad Nelson (41:27):
Oh, it was a Catholic writer, yeah.
Heather Drake (41:29):
I think he's for it Right in the middle of my
tongue, carl Ronner.
Yes, you either become a mysticor nothing at all.
Dennis Drake (41:36):
Yeah, and to me, i have found the fundamentalist
kind of a Christian who's justgoing to flat, bury their head
in the sand.
They believed it when they werea kid, they're going to believe
it now and they're always goingto believe it And they're not.
But anyone who's progressing isgoing to find some struggles,
(41:57):
going to find some things thatyou're just not settling.
Not in that you're abandoningChrist, but I just mean that,
like the walk is just not, thethings that made sense to you as
a younger person are not goingto make sense anymore.
And so in me being fullyengulfed in that phase of my
(42:19):
walk, i'm not turning away, yeah, and I see why people do,
because they have thoseinconsistencies and those things
that are probably not going tobe answered on this side of
glory or whatever.
You know that you kind of justyou bury your head in the sand
or, but I'm still curious, youknow, and I'm just I think, and
(42:42):
I think design in my design, andso if you're not going to walk
away, then I think for us tokind of really go.
Well then, what is behind thecurtain?
What is the mystical side ofthis thing?
And that's exciting to mebecause then it has a whole.
I mean it's infinite.
Brad Nelson (43:05):
Yeah, it makes me think of I think of Brian Zond
as somebody who went throughthat process, that growth
process, but he did it in public, Yeah, and his book Water to
Wine is such a helpful.
(43:27):
I almost like a manual forpeople who are going through
that same process And to beginto stick your toes in and wade
out into the mystical.
What does it look like, not totalk to God but to enter a state
(43:47):
of awareness where you areexperiencing the real thing, the
actual presence?
Heather Drake (43:54):
There is this willed form and the idea that
maybe it's not a voice comingoutside of you, into you, but
that you're actually stillenough to hear the voice.
Dennis Drake (44:02):
Well, it's a shame too, because when you say that
I just kind of hear peopleshutting down going well, that's
a heretic, I can't listen tohim or Roar as a heretic or
whatever.
And so for me, I mean, what doyou do with that?
Brad Nelson (44:13):
Well, the best prophet the best prophet?
Dennis Drake (44:14):
I'm not asking people to give up their faith or
to, but you know what, ifthere's something good, you
could find in his teaching and,you know, do we have to like,
imagine you have to like,immediately go.
that's different, that's foreign.
I disagree with that.
So, immediately, that is poisonto us.
And I think that I've met him,i've spoke to him, you know,
(44:36):
face to face with him, and he'sa follower of Christ who is
endeavoring to try to figure itout, you know, and so, and to
admit when he's wrong.
and at this point this is theway he sees it.
And so, to me, i find life inthat, because at every point I
(44:58):
don't want to be judged, as at,you know, is this the moment
when I got to be judged, for Iknow as much Christianity You
know what I mean It's likeyou're kind of on a walk and I
know what I know then and I hadgrace for it.
I know what I know now, but Ithink to me there's got to be
some responsibility for us.
You know, as lifelong learnersand followers, that we're
growing.
Heather Drake (45:18):
Yeah, i get the.
There's an Old Testament storywhere Jacob is wrestling with an
angel and obviously we believeit to be more than angel and
angel of the Lord or apre-Bethlehem appearance of the
Christ, however we describe it.
But he's over and over againasking tell me your name, and he
doesn't get the answer.
I want to know who you are sothat I can know what box to put
you in, so I could put limits onyou and say, okay, that's this
(45:41):
God.
And God denies the request toget and just offers.
And then the beauty of it is Ithink this is where I think a
lot of people are, but in thatI'm not hearing the answer.
But still he claims hisblessing and then in the
claiming of the blessing, it's awrestle And I think that you
had talked about earlier.
(46:02):
Even this idea of anger in theclaiming.
You might end up with a hip outof socket, but you're then.
You're so transformed that whenyour brother sees you he says
oh, i see the face of.
Brad Nelson (46:14):
God Yeah.
Heather Drake (46:15):
So what a beautiful story but, you get.
I'm asking you what's your nameand the answer is I'm not going
to give it to you, yep.
Brad Nelson (46:22):
It's like you will have to enter into the mystery.
Heather Drake (46:24):
Yeah.
Brad Nelson (46:25):
And here's the thing that irritates me I
shouldn't say it quite like that, but it does irritate me is
when you, yeah, when you talkabout like mysticism and like
people who come from thetradition that I came up and get
immediately uncomfortable to me.
That is a okay.
You don't know your own story,because I realize Brian's on
(46:48):
just wrote a book about this notlong ago, but you do realize
the desert fathers and mothersof the third, fourth and fifth
century right, the St John ofthe Cross, teresa of Avila.
We have all these Julian Norwich, these miss, these Christian
mystics.
And gosh, you start going backinto reading some of the Celtic
spirituality and you findoriginal goodness, care for the
(47:13):
earth, the elevation of women.
Oh, wait, a second.
We're not the first ChristianLike we call that progressive
but it's actually ancient.
Yeah.
Dennis Drake (47:22):
I love that you said that.
Thank you so much.
That is so good Yeah.
Heather Drake (47:28):
So then I bring up an ancient prophet who said
stop, stand at the crossroads,ask for the ancient paths, ask
where the good way is, and thereyou will find rest for your
souls.
I think our souls are tired Andso being able to say where's
the rest?
The rest is in the ancientpaths, the rest is in the
invitation to spirit.
And again I keep going back towe've had this conversation over
(47:51):
and over again When Jesusgifted the church its power or
this.
Here's a gifting, here's whatyou're starting on.
He gifted us spirit.
He didn't gift us a text, hegifted us part of himself.
Brad Nelson (48:04):
Yeah, Oh, it's so good.
Dennis Drake (48:07):
Yeah, well, let it transform us, and I think
that's good for today.
Heather Drake (48:13):
Thank you, Brad.
We appreciate you taking timeright out before you.
Dennis Drake (48:17):
Thank you guys, this is way fun, it is isn't it?
Heather Drake (48:19):
Yeah, you've been listening to Season 2 of the So
Much More Podcast with Dennisand Heather Drake.
We want to take a moment andexpress our sincerest thanks for
the investment of your time Andif you're interested in
continuing conversation or moreinformation about what we
discussed, please email us at somuch more podcast at gmailcom.
(48:40):
If you're interested in some ofthe creative projects that
Dennis has done, you can findout more information at
drakinsonscom or find us onTwitter at so much more podcast.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to season two of So Much More, a
lifestyle podcast by Dennis andHeather Drake.
So much more is a podcast basedon our lives, eclectic and
inspired, one whererelationships are honored and
invested in.
We invite you to join us as wecontinue a lifestyle and a
(00:23):
lifelong discussion.
Dennis Drake (00:25):
Hey, this is Dennis.
Thanks so much for listening toour podcast.
I just ask you that, if you'reenjoying it, if you'd remember
to subscribe or follow the show,like it, however that all works
, i would ask you to pleasereview it.
If you take that time, thatreally does help us get the show
out there.
But anyways, just want to letyou know you're listening to
(00:47):
part three of a three partseries of a conversation that
Heather and I had with BradNelson.
Listen as Heather and I andBrad discuss anger.
I will say this about Heatherin terms of her anger.
Well, this is also an expectedbluff Drum roll please, that it
was only until like a year ortwo ago that she read whatever
(01:10):
book that she read, or you know,or maybe it was the, it was the
progression of of, becauseyou've been working on the, the
um Enneagram for a lot longerthan a couple of years.
But anyways, whenever youpresented to me the idea that
that I might have anger, becauseI just thought, honest to God,
that was what was weird.
It's like she's able to livethis life and not manifest, not
(01:32):
deal, not have anger.
It was my perception.
So so then she's going okay,maybe I do have it, but you know
there's people that turn it inthe way that I do.
This is the atypical, you know,which is kind of outward.
Or or then they internalize anddo you know, either resentment
or blah, blah, blah, you knowwhatever.
And so so she talked about uh,okay, now this is one of the if
(01:57):
I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but you said it's
one of the hardest things thatI've maybe the hardest thing
I've ever faced is like well, igot to start dealing with this,
so.
So then she goes.
So then she was really testingthe ice, kind of like uh, you
know, before she again, you gotto understand the dynamic.
(02:17):
She grew up in a house where hermother uh, would, would, at
times had beat her, unconscious,you know, and then she was like
I got to do whatever I can tokeep from making her mad.
So, in other words, she justdanced, played the game, and
then she married an angry manand then she had to do this
dance or whatever.
So that was her.
She was so busy doing all thesethings.
(02:38):
And then our relationship hasgrown to the point where I think
, by her own admission, shedoesn't have to be as afraid as
she used to be of me.
I'm not saying that she's freeand clear of this and I give her
no reason to.
But at the same time now sheknows we actually can't have
hard conversations and I don'tlose it and and are mean and and
threatened and blah, blah, blah.
(02:59):
So.
So all of a sudden now she'sstarting to test the size, and I
said all of that to say thatwhen she tries to be angry she's
horrible.
I need myself incompetent.
Heather Drake (03:14):
I told you.
Dennis Drake (03:16):
And I second that, And I second that in the way
that I will say that she likelike it's amazing to me because
like, ooh, that was real hurtfulWhat you just said, or that was
real, or that seems like reallydisproport or whatever.
And then it was like Don's onme, It's like, oh, she's never
done this.
So again, there's that part ofof when the person you love
(03:37):
comes at you at all.
you want to defend, you want toaccuse, you want to.
but what if you could step backand go oh, this person's trying
a new thing, You know.
and what if we could reallykind of do that with everything,
Like, oh, I'm bumping upagainst something.
It must be something you'reterrible at, because this is not
going well, but instead wealways take it like very
(03:58):
personal.
You know like, because thethings that she said were in
fact personal, but from a guywho's, who's, i mean like I'm
ninja level angry and mean atthat.
So so when she approaches thisoh that was adorable, Your
little triad.
Brad Nelson (04:16):
You know what I mean, so I wasn't able to like.
Dennis Drake (04:18):
I could have taken offense because it was, you
know, in some ways hurtfulthings, but it was like she
wasn't any good at it.
But then I'm like, okay, ican't have it.
And I said all of that to saythis too I can't have it two
ways I, i, she can either wallup and be that person who keeps
me at a distance because she hasto keep all that together, or I
can invite her into thisintimate, vulnerable place, but
(04:42):
then the minute she comes outand does it wrong, i punish her
for it.
Brad Nelson (04:45):
Yeah.
Dennis Drake (04:46):
Yeah, so that's the thing too.
when you're dealing with peopleon all of this, it's like how
do we invite them out into thatvulnerability and then that
punish them for it?
Brad Nelson (04:58):
Yeah, yeah, and you know there's, there's, there's
another dimension to it for methat I have just discovered in
this whole season of learningand awareness, that I use
vulnerability as a defensemechanism.
Heather Drake (05:16):
So I stand at the other end of that.
Brad Nelson (05:21):
So I I just recently realized, um, i will
frequently in conversation withpeople and some of this is
genuine, like I am genuinelyfascinated to ask questions and
to learn about people Like I wow, you do that for a living, tell
me about that.
(05:41):
I don't know anything aboutthat, and it can be very easy
for me to just get so enrapturedwith the conversation that I
just keep asking you rapid firequestions about you.
And I've had people over theyears repeatedly say to me you
know what are these days?
we need to talk about you.
Like I need to ask somequestions about you.
And I'm aware that, uh, i havea very disarming way of using
(06:10):
vulnerability to keep you atyour gutifully bad speed to
invite a level of being known.
Heather Drake (06:21):
But it's only what you've already metered out.
I will allow this.
This is what I think you won'tbe so grossed out by that we
could still have conversationback.
I would still be invited back.
It is a lot like and I say thisbecause I do that, so no
judgment, i just recognize it.
This is us, you know.
Don't pull the curtain all theway back Or like in a theater.
(06:42):
There's a first curtain.
We're not talking about thecurtain behind the curtain that
all the acting is happening atThis is the one we've said now,
this is the play and this iswhat we've scripted.
And then there's the blackcurtain, When someone's standing
with a bag of sand, do notpress this button.
Brad Nelson (07:00):
So, yeah, i just feel like there are all these
layers to it, you know, and.
But I love.
Carl Jung says a wrote that 90%of the shadow is pure gold.
So what I really enjoy aboutthis is, as you bring all this
stuff into awareness, youdiscover wow, there's actually a
lot of beauty here, a lot ofgoodness to be used, and, oh boy
(07:27):
, it's not fun.
It is not a fun journey.
Heather Drake (07:31):
But it is a call into awakening, into a new way
of being, and I think thatobviously that is the maturity
that we're hoping for.
I think that in some minds, theidea of maturity is what now do
you know?
And I think that ultimatelythis is just my opinion but
knowing yourself, that's wherethe being able to meet God, in
(07:53):
that I know who I am and mybelovedness and my worthiness
and how that relates to anger,but also how I present
vulnerability.
You were talking about yourwillingness to offer
vulnerability as a player placeof connection, but there's
somebody.
I forget who it is, but theysaid people live their whole
lives and they're un-listened to.
(08:13):
So very often, when people arelistened to, they can't
extinguish the feeling of beinglistened to and loved.
They actually, it feels lovingand in the presence of love.
Aren't we all transformed?
So there is that idea oftransformation only happens when
we're listened to.
And in part of being angry isknowing, even if no one listens
(08:34):
to me, god can, or can I eventake the place to be able to say
I'm investigating this anger,why do I feel this way?
And then listen and say it'svalid, meet it with not well,
for my issue of resentment.
I find that contempt is realclose.
So, instead of that contemptfor myself for not being aware
that somebody else needs againmy responsibility to guess
(08:56):
someone's needs.
I think that that's a scriptthat they've given a pastor's
wife and said this is your jobto do this And being able to
turn that back over and go.
No, what it needs is compassion.
I need compassion.
This part of me, whether it'sego or whether it's spirit or
whatever it is.
There is pain and I needcompassion.
And then how to actually beable to cultivate and say how
(09:20):
can I be compassionate?
Dennis Drake (09:23):
You know, there's so many of the aspects of our
relationship that we expectpeople to be psychic in, you
know, like you should just knowthis, and I think that if we can
kind of go at it with the ideathat no people don't unless you
tell them, and then we have tokind of, i think that's the risk
(09:44):
, because that's where, in orderto do that, you have to be
vulnerable, and so do I.
Have the people in my life thathave proven trustworthy, or I'm
willing to try and thenverbalize those things, because
they seem so obvious to us, butthey're not.
(10:05):
They're masked by the fact thatwe got our own issues going on,
and so I can't see as clear asyou think that it is for me
until you tell me, and so Ithink, more times than not,
there are good people around usthat if we would be vulnerable
enough to share with them, theywould help carry your burdens.
And like you, said even if not,we do know that God will never
(10:27):
leave us forsaken.
Brad Nelson (10:28):
Yeah, and you know, trust is built consistently
over time.
So you it's.
I think Brene Brown isborrowing from John Gottman, but
she uses the image of a marblejar, that there are these little
sliding door moments where youeither see me or you don't, and
(10:48):
if you turn aside and see me,you deposit a marble in the jar
and you get enough of thoselittle micro moments.
Trust is built right And, butwhen it comes to vulnerability,
like with people you don't know,somebody's gotta go first.
Yeah but there are all kinds oflittle micro ways that I arrived
(11:13):
at the conclusion that you'resafe people And we know when
we're in the presence of aperson who's safe, like I've
been talking with my wife overthe years what it's like to be a
woman in a world where womenare constantly objectified and
looked at, and a woman knowswhen she's being ogled, she
(11:36):
knows when she's walking througha parking lot and that's a
dangerous presence.
Right, there's just thisknowledge And, in the same way,
we may not have like deeprelationship with people, but we
do have these very subtlesensors for knowing that you
know what.
I think this person is a safeone.
(11:56):
I think that this is a safeplace to venture out onto the
ice and give it a try, and Iabsolutely felt that with you
guys, which is why I was willingto risk vulnerability.
Heather Drake (12:10):
Well, we're honored by that too.
Recognizing that is a gift.
when somebody presents thefirst part of my story, well,
the feeling is mutual thatyou're very valued and respected
.
Dennis Drake (12:17):
But I think that you know it just.
Hopefully it just demonstratesto anyone that might be
listening to that these kind ofrelationships are highly
valuable.
They're so helpful And so thatthey are to be treasured when
they're found and sought after.
In that sense, you know,heather and I were kind of
(12:37):
lamenting the other day aboutthe fact that our relationship
You were very much lamenting.
Heather Drake (12:42):
Yeah, that our relationship with you and.
Dennis Drake (12:44):
Tricia is just now getting to the place that it is
.
Heather Drake (12:47):
We were looking at that.
they've been here 10 freakingyears, Yeah, and so why?
Dennis Drake (12:52):
did we miss the boat on that, but anyways, watch
this third try.
So, heather, why don't you helpus?
Because there are peoplelistening that might approach
anger from your standpoint, andso they might and might benefit
them to hear, like, how are youapproaching it?
(13:13):
Okay, i hear you that readingwould be a way that works for
you to gather information, but Isee you making a lot of
practical steps too.
Heather Drake (13:24):
And one of the things that's been very helpful
to me at least in the awarenessand actually has, i feel, like a
gift to people who are tryingto walk alongside of me through
this particular journey isnaming the things, is actually
taking the power given to go.
This is what it is, and insteadof dismissing it or living life
disembodied from it, this iswhat it is.
(13:45):
And then sometimes for me, theissue is does that sound like
complaining?
Does it sound?
I'm constantly?
there's some people who are notaware and don't do any self
reflection.
I'm overly reflecting, you know, like there's this idea of you
get to just be in the moment too.
It doesn't have to be a defenseof why you live your life.
There's a presence now.
So, naming something and goingI am in pain right now, or I am
(14:08):
frustrated right now, or I amangry at this And then giving
hope to someone to say you'reallowed to be angry or
justification for the anger, notin the morality of.
There was a gift to me when Icame across this idea.
It wasn't mine, but I cameacross it and it was a real gift
that not everything hasmorality tied to it, and that
(14:29):
was shocking because literallyin my life.
In my consciousness, there wasmorality tied to everything.
Everything I did was-.
Dennis Drake (14:38):
That's a whole podcast.
Heather Drake (14:39):
It is was it right?
was it in scripture?
What kind of justification?
why would I do this?
What is the result of this?
What will they think of it?
Will it be two, I think, one,of the issues of living life as
a person-.
Dennis Drake (14:49):
It must be exhausting to be in your brain.
Heather Drake (14:50):
Yes, it is and it goes so fast I mean, it's rapid
fire.
Can this person handle thiskind of pain?
Do you even want them to handleit, will they?
what will they do with it later?
Like?
those are big questions becausein my life, especially again
going back to being a smallchild and making decisions that
weren't mine to make, makinglife and death, or what felt
(15:10):
like life and death situations,was what will happen later once
you have this information.
And so very often to me it'sjust better not to give you that
information, because I don'teven know.
We talked about this and it'sone of the things that makes you
.
what has incited anger for youis a constant asking of what do
you think about this?
And I say I don't know.
(15:31):
And he's like, of course youknow what you're thinking.
And I'm like, yeah, that's notthe question, though.
It's not what I'm thinking,it's how will you respond to
what I'm thinking?
How will I respond to what I'mthinking?
What these?
Dennis Drake (15:41):
thoughts will do.
Maybe I'll think somethingdifferent later.
Heather Drake (15:42):
Yeah, no, there's a one chance, once and done
deal.
So I'm hesitant very often totalk about that, but the
practice of naming things hasbeen really helpful.
This is an injustice.
This is wrong.
This is not now the judgmentthat comes after it.
That needs to be.
You know, allow spirit to comein there.
But this idea of what is itlike to name it, to be given
(16:05):
autonomy or to even take it?
Somebody asked what I was doingabout patriarchy and the very
fact that we still are in aworld where they're just, and
we've mentioned it, and I loveAdvent for this you get to see
the story of God's redemptionthrough the lens of a woman, and
there's that piece of art thatI love, and around Advent, and
it's Mary Consoles Eve, and theimagery by this nun that was
(16:31):
gifted to the world is Eve hasthis look of shame and Mary is
taking her hand and putting iton her very pregnant belly, like
inviting hope, even when theshame is so big.
Here's the hope that comes withthat And then recognizing,
because here's where thatmorality is.
(16:51):
Then, well, am I at any pointbeing Eve or am I being Mary?
But I think the point is thatwe're both.
There's parts of us that needto be nurtured and compassion.
And then there's other parts ofus that you know I I was
listening to somebody else'sadvent truth and they were
saying the gift of advent, inlooking at both of these people,
(17:13):
is Eve said I'll take it andMary said just let it be.
There's a different posture inkeeping yourself safe and having
to take that knowledge.
And, dennis, i've been talkingso much about the invitation, is
the tree of knowledge good andevil or the tree of life?
(17:34):
And how often we are at the treeof knowledge just trying to
figure it out which is why bookshave been helpful, but in the
essence of spirit and what thatlooks like for us to cultivate
the voice of spirit so we canstay in those places of life.
Dennis Drake (17:50):
So you know, if I'm hearing you say that an
approach for anger can be justto rest and not have to act,
have to respond, have to think,to just kind of name things or
what they are, you know, or inthe emotions that you're having,
and to me I've observed thatwith you And that's something
that I'm trying to adopt in myown life, because to me there
(18:16):
has to then be that response.
But what if that?
you know?
what if that's true?
that scientific report, youknow that 15 seconds is really
when the anger is, and it's whatwe do with it after, and so we
are-.
Heather Drake (18:28):
But what we connect it to?
there are thoughts that weconnect it to that, make it
bigger.
Dennis Drake (18:31):
And so what if you don't, instead of going?
Heather Drake (18:33):
what is in the presence?
what is this practice ofpresence?
I wanted the books that I love,and again, this can be a really
long list, but practicing thepresence of God by Brother.
Andrew and this idea that youcan meet up with the divine
while you're peeling potatoes,while you're mindful of what is
happening right now and how thatrelates to, you know, breath,
prayers, or how that relates topaying attention to this, that
(18:54):
we are ultimately not alone,that we are not, that there is a
oneness that Jesus prayed forAnd for all of us, that if we
could experience this oneness,that somehow Jesus, you know,
was able to live fully human butfully connected to the Father,
in so much that his connectionwas not ruined by him.
Quoting David, who said I feellike you've abandoned me, you
(19:16):
know, we know that not to betrue, but in this moment it
feels like abandonment, butfeeling so comfortable that you
could say let it be.
And then I love that, obviously, that Jesus is saying the same
thing that he heard his mothertalk to him about.
You know, she says let it be tothe angel, and he says in
response the same song thatshe's saying you're will be done
, not mine.
He makes it his own, but we'veheard that lyric before You know
(19:40):
.
it is in that her let it be.
And I love that idea of I sentyou a little Instagram thing
about it And this is a muchbigger maybe podcast.
but Mary was offered aninvitation and it was for her,
the ability to consent.
Sometimes we feel like Mary.
(20:00):
just you know, god showed upand made a proclamation and
that's just what it was.
But this idea to co-create withGod is a beautiful invitation,
especially during Advent.
Brad Nelson (20:10):
Yeah, consensual Christmas.
Heather Drake (20:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Dennis Drake (20:15):
That's good.
One of the things we always doat the end of the podcast is and
you started to do it therepreemptively is mention some
things that would be helpful forthose people that do read or
that don't, and should, maybebecause you know the
conversation that we're having.
It's not like things will getsolved by one conversation, But
(20:40):
I think these kinds ofconversations find us at the
right point in our life when weneed them.
So I just gotta believe that atsome point there's an
intersection for somebody inthis conversation And what would
help them on that journey?
What would you wanna say tosomebody else that's in that
same journey?
And so I'd ask both of you guysthat question.
You know, what would yourecommend that we that maybe we
(21:06):
look into, cause I'm just sograteful that you have shared
some of the things that you'veshared with me.
You know, and you know myconversations with Jerry, and
you know, of course, myconversation with you, brad,
have just, you know, helped meon this journey, you know.
So sometimes the books we reador and you know you could
(21:30):
technically say you read it ifyou listen to it on.
Brad Nelson (21:33):
Audible, it doesn't matter.
Dennis Drake (21:35):
Yeah, it's a.
what's the word?
Technicality?
you don't have to admit thatyou listen to the book.
You can say I read it.
Was the information still givento you?
Cause the information wasimparted?
Heather Drake (21:46):
Exactly, and you know, much of the world history
is an oral tradition.
We didn't I mean up until theprinting press.
Dennis Drake (21:53):
You were reading the book.
You could read a shamelessnon-readers with all the books
that you read, so I figured away to sneak it into that.
I read it.
Heather Drake (22:00):
If I heard it, you're free from shame and from
judgment.
The information is what it wasintended, not necessarily the
modality, the mark on the page,which is a deeper magic still.
That's one of the reasons Ilove no.
for me, reading was an escapefrom people's you know very
angry world that they kind ofhead trapped me in So I could
read about Narmia in a deepermagic still.
Dennis Drake (22:22):
Kind of love that.
So what else would yourecommend?
Heather Drake (22:25):
I love a lot of black women authors.
Obviously, they have a lot tosay about anger and a lot to say
about, and they need to belistened to in that same kind of
place.
And so there's a bajillion now.
One of the books that has beenjust beautiful to me is one
Women Were Birds a lot by NedraTwab.
Right now, and then payingattention to, you know, voices
(22:48):
that have been in a minority,looking at that and going what
is it like for us to listen toMarlena Graves, who said the way
up is down, you know, and again, these teachers that have so
much to say about livingdifferently.
Dennis Drake (23:00):
A long time ago, you know, cs Lewis had said that
you know, when reading it wouldbe important to read historical
and contemporary in alternatingfashion, versus, and so and I
would add to that that it's beenmy experience that most people
read like-minded people.
Heather Drake (23:20):
Oh, right, right yeah.
Dennis Drake (23:22):
So the Middle-Age White guy is gonna have a
collection of Middle-Age Whiteguy books.
So the thing that Heather's,the idea that Heather's
presenting there is that youknow how many Middle-Age White
guys have read a Black womanauthor And of course you know I
think there has to be a thread.
You know, if you're a spiritualperson, that there would be a
(23:45):
spiritual you know that wouldconnect you with that author.
You know, i'm not just sayingrandomly pull a book because a
Black lady wrote it, but I'msaying that there are Black
female theologians.
Heather Drake (23:57):
Willa Gaffney is awesome.
Dennis Drake (23:58):
You have a voice that is you're void of Unless
you were to hear thatperspective.
Just because of their lifeexperience and the God that's in
them and versus you know theirexperiences has just brought a
voice that you're not gonna.
That Middle-Age White guy isjust not, is just you know.
Heather Drake (24:20):
And then so so yeah, So I think like Tony
Morrissey, i think of MayaAngelou, i think of people like
that who are just like bellhooks, just brilliant thinkers.
And again, we live in a timewhere we don't always get to sit
at a table with those people,but through a book we get to
have almost a one-sidedconversation, but we do get to
hear that idea.
(24:40):
You were talking about thisstudy that you've done in Ruth
and I'm like I wonder if you'veread.
The Women's Midrash of thisidea of that book has a lot to
say.
I love it when people I don'tlove it.
I actually hate it.
It makes me feel sick to mystomach when people misinterpret
those things and then, you know, try to cage people, or so I
(25:02):
have a yeah.
It makes my skin itchy Whenthey start saying you know, did
you read this?
I'm like, do you have any ideawhat you are talking about?
Have you read it in context?
is my as a clarion call for me.
Don't just take off that oneverse, read it in context.
And then also, you know,recognizing reading the women,
who are not just women, but infact there's a beautiful poet
(25:24):
who is.
He's got some other stuffthat's fantastic on Instagram.
God speaks through wombs.
Dennis Drake (25:31):
I just remember Drew Jackson did that was.
Heather Drake (25:33):
Yeah, fantastic.
Dennis Drake (25:34):
I just remember the first, like you know, time.
I mean this would have been awhile back, but you and I
started kind of like findingbooks of Christian ministers
that were outside of ourdenomination And that seemed
like very risky, like we were,you know, some up on guard kind
of a whatever ooh, check us out,we're you know.
(25:55):
But then in finding, like thisparticular author from this
denomination, it's, you know,kind of like maybe we don't have
a lot of connection with, butthere's still a brilliant
thinker and God speaking throughthat, and so all of a sudden
that began to this journey ofgoing.
You know why would we limitGod's voice?
you know, in any other placethat we would.
(26:16):
So I know you can't really saysomething, but I wanted to add.
Heather Drake (26:19):
I was because you had mentioned earlier that you
had some, you know, brought youra little bit of wisdom from
Richard Rohr who brings?
again from a differenttradition, i think.
As a child, when I learned toread, i learned to read quickly
and I was stuck because Icouldn't go to the library.
The library head from schoolwas only during school.
(26:39):
You know, like you couldn't assmall children, you can't take
them home.
You can read them at school.
So I was stuck with mygrandmother's library And but it
did allow me from a very earlyage to read books that were like
bigger than I was.
I wasn't stuck with children'sbooks And I feel so grateful for
that, like there are thingsthat I didn't always understand.
(27:01):
But I was eight years old and Iwas reading a book by an Indian
mystic, Sutter Sundar Singh.
I love that.
And yeah, and books like thatagain, then I would offer to
people the knowledge that Imyself, as a seven year old, had
read with no understanding, notallowing it to change me first,
but I was just gonna proclaimwhat I have and I got myself
(27:24):
into lots of trouble by that,But the idea that I had books
that were available that werebeyond the scope of what I knew
or what.
And again, I don't think thatonly black women have voices,
but I think that they have.
It is our responsibility tomake sure that who we listen to
is the diverse prophets that sayto us you know, the kingdom is
(27:46):
coming, It's so close, it's evenright here, Yeah.
Dennis Drake (27:50):
Well asking you, brad than that same question.
You know, based on thisconversation, is there anything
that rises up in your heart thatyou would maybe share with the
listeners?
Brad Nelson (27:58):
I mean I've been answered in two ways.
One is like, as it relates toanger.
You know we mentioned SusanDavid's book Emotional Legility.
She's a South African author,just brilliant, brilliant
speaker.
That's a fantastic book.
You know, richard Rohr's stuffon breathing underwater
(28:19):
spirituality in the 12 stepsgets into a whole section on
resentment and anger.
That just took me to thewoodshed.
You know, kent Dobson issomebody who I've worked with at
different points in my life andhe has a podcast called Hints
and Guesses And he's got apodcast that I have gone back to
(28:41):
over and over and over and overcalled The Hidden Gifts of
Anger.
That's just fantastic.
But then, like speaking morebroadly, with kind of what we
were just talking about, likeNedra is somebody that my wife
and I are talking about all thetime And I don't even know what
her last name is.
You said it Twab Twab.
Heather Drake (29:01):
Glover first.
Brad Nelson (29:02):
yeah, So I just know, because we keep talking
like I see her.
Heather Drake (29:06):
Instagram account .
She's the only person that Iknow named Nedra.
So we're fine when I first madebest faces.
We talk about Nedra a lot, butman one of the You and she has a
new book coming out, i think ofthe year.
Brad Nelson (29:17):
Yes, i just saw that.
In fact it's on my I shouldn'tsay this on the podcast.
Heather Drake (29:22):
Oh, it's on something else.
Brad Nelson (29:23):
Yeah, well, no, I'm gonna get it for my wife for
Christmas.
Heather Drake (29:26):
So we'll just cut that out.
Dennis Drake (29:27):
Hopefully.
Yeah, well, i won't hear it intwo weeks, Okay, yeah, so you're
good, i won't hear it.
It's on Christmas, you can,unless you forget.
Brad Nelson (29:33):
Man, one of the biggest voices that's kind of
like shaping my life along thelines of.
I am really intentionallylistening outside of kind of the
, the Richard Roars of my world,which I they're like me, right,
so I find those, i come bythose voices pretty naturally.
(29:55):
But there is anAfrican-American minister in DC
Actually, i think it'sAlexandria.
I might be saying that wrong,but Alfred Street Baptist Church
in Virginia, the Reverend DrHoward John Wesley.
Heather Drake (30:16):
This dude he went Yeah, but then you could also
read James Baldwin, you couldalso read Cohn, you could also.
Brad Nelson (30:23):
But he went viral for a sermon that he did after
what happened with TrayvonMartin And I'm just telling you,
like that guy, I want to heareverything he has to say.
Heather Drake (30:39):
I also want to hear everything that Bishop
Michael Curry talks about.
His understanding of the loveof Christ is revolutionary And
everybody should be listening tohim.
Yeah.
Dennis Drake (30:48):
You know, and so as diverse as people are in the
way that they look, imagine ifthat's a reflection of how
diverse God is and his spirithis gifts, you know, and I think
that it is, and so if we justhave this one slice of the pie,
you know we're so bland in our,in our, in our palates, and so I
just, you know, i'm hopefulthat that, through all of these
(31:09):
connections that God would giveus, that that it would create in
us that full, the fullness ofGod, and that that's that people
that are listening wouldn'thave to struggle under the
weight and shame of of anger andin the struggle of of of the
destruction that it brings.
Heather Drake (31:25):
I would also recommend that Audie Cobbler who
is Traysofter.
So, yeah, you know, again,sometimes with anger we want to
meet it with the same fiercenessthat we've been mid gifted with
it, and so there's thissometimes softer is definitely
the way to go.
So, yeah, we could talk aboutwhat books to read all the time
Sometimes.
So you mentioned that anger isa gift or this was on the
(31:47):
podcast, but I would tell youthat I have found it extremely
difficult to claim that gift asmy home.
There are some gifts that arelike easy claimed and there's
others that are like ooh.
Brad Nelson (31:57):
Yeah, well, and I know that they're like, i think,
dallas Willard says BrilliantRead everything.
I'm happy.
I trust Jesus stewarding angerway more than I trust myself,
and so there I do feel like inhis writings there is a little
bit of a caution There should be.
Heather Drake (32:17):
It is for all people that understand it.
it's caustic And the containerthat it's held in is very
important to how much is spilledout on other people.
And then, in my situation,being mindful that it's very
caustic to hold on to it, myself.
So there is a better way ofdoing that, and it is giving it
to Jesus who is capable?
Brad Nelson (32:35):
Yeah, who knows what to do with it?
Who knows how to translude it?
Yes, yeah.
Dennis Drake (32:41):
Well, i appreciate you guys sharing those things
and hopefully people can findwithin that I did want to ask
you about.
I remember I don't know when itwas not relatively recently,
but you were reading the DanAllender book and that probably
made you more angry than I'veseen you get at any book.
Heather Drake (32:58):
He's so provoked, he's such a He's a provocateur,
isn't that He is?
He is so provoking, yes.
Brad Nelson (33:04):
He is.
Dennis Drake (33:05):
You know what I mean.
Because the things that well,and the reason why I remember it
so well is because you're sokind that when you read a book
that challenges you, that youdon't keep that to yourself,
that you allow the confrontationin that book to be shared with
your loved ones and your husband.
Heather Drake (33:25):
And so I just remember, i just appreciate the
way that you said that becausemy family goes because I'll say
can I just read you this onething?
Dennis Drake (33:33):
If it were this one thing, It's not One time
this is what happened.
Heather Drake (33:37):
It wasn't too recently, i mean it wasn't too
long ago.
I said to Dennis can I read youthis one thing?
And he said I got up from mysleep only to use the bathroom.
I'm going for active bed.
But I saw him and I was like,oh, this was good, i was just
reading this.
Dennis Drake (33:52):
He's like I am sleeping.
Heather Drake (33:54):
I only am up for this, Yeah let me tell you this
one thing.
Dennis Drake (33:56):
And then she's, and pretty soon she's like nine
pages into a medical journal.
That has happened Because we,you know, anger is, you know,
they've proven this about youknow and so it's like, okay,
well, just get to the.
You know the cliff notes for me.
I don't want to read themedical journals yet.
Brad Nelson (34:10):
But she's delighted to read them And then sharing
that with you.
Dennis Drake (34:12):
But do you remember the Dana Elnider book?
Heather Drake (34:15):
I do.
Dennis Drake (34:16):
Because I think that that was.
it was one of those thingswhere, when you're ready for
those things, they meet you atthat moment, when you're ready,
it's just like it's time to.
Heather Drake (34:26):
I think the way I respond, or at least I like to
defend my way of response, isbecause in the Jewish tradition,
you say tell me where it'swritten.
Like I want to know, like thisis just your imagination.
And then I was reading someoneRabbi Ruttenberg, she's
wonderful, you should read her,follow her on the Instagram and
stuff.
She's a woman rabbi.
She recommends she was talkingto a Christian person following
(34:49):
and they were asking a questionand she goes I want to show you
how Torah is written.
And then how the comments onTorah is written.
On one hand, the man who saysthis like this is what Rabbi
Herschel says.
Right next to it is written anabsolute contradiction.
And we were talking about thisfact that you know, paul offers
one thing, james offerssomething else.
It seems like they're talkingout of both sides of their faith
(35:10):
.
Either you're saved by faithalone or James is like you have
no faith if there's not works.
You know so.
Either one of them is right orboth can be true at the same
time.
And so there is this incrediblehope.
So in this book called I don'tremember the name of it,
actually, i know that it's blackand red and it's by Allender
And I think it's calledsomething about your story or
the gift of your story.
(35:31):
We can look that up in just aminute.
But in the book of telling yourstory he says if there are any
parts of your story that youwould edit or write out, like
any chapters that you are notlike, grateful for that.
(35:51):
It is an affront to God, who iswriting the story with you.
Brad Nelson (35:54):
Yeah to be told to be told.
Heather Drake (35:55):
That's the name of it, Thank you.
So that to me is offensive,because there are parts of my
story that I wish never happenedAnd there are chapters that I
think as a storyteller, becauseI would write the story this way
There was a beautiful princessand she lived happily ever after
which is a terrible story.
No one would read that.
You know, being able to embracethe dragon, being able to find
(36:16):
out that those kind of thingsare fearless and beautiful
things I want to do, but formost, i mean I want to.
Yeah, i want to look away fromthe chapters that feel like they
contain so much pain, insteadof going back and allowing And.
I think, the invitation is inthat whole book is allow the
spirit to go back and read it toyou.
Dennis and I were talking aboutthis recently, the idea of the
(36:37):
difference in reading scripture,going to scripture, because no
matter if you want the scriptureto say, you can find something
that says just like it.
But if you will allow in maybethe Hebrew tradition, even
starting there, but allow thescriptures to read you, that's a
whole other book.
Brad Nelson (36:56):
Yeah, so two things .
My wife and I had dinner withAlinder once, and this is this.
Heather Drake (37:01):
That was a total power play right there.
Brad Nelson (37:05):
Okay, i mentioned my previous job.
I used to like drop I used toget to bring him in as one of
our speakers.
Well, now we have higherexpectation, Yeah Well he we're
having a meal and Trisha saidsomething and he put down his
fork and he turned and lookedher full in the face and said
you are a deeply troubled woman,and then he went back to eating
(37:29):
.
Heather Drake (37:30):
And did you say from then on, this is what I say
to you, Trisha, when you bringit here, you are as dead now
under prophesies?
Brad Nelson (37:37):
Oh that was so funny.
But then, man, i just I lovethat like two things true at the
same time, yes, and likeholding things in tension, like
even with the Ruth stories.
you've got wait a second.
Deuteronomy 23 says no Moabiteor Ammonite shall enter the
assembly up to the 10thgeneration.
Heather Drake (37:57):
And we got yeah, exactly, but Ruth's a Moabite,
jesus comes from her.
Yeah.
Brad Nelson (38:01):
She's the grandmother of King David, the
greatest King we have.
So and then it's like well,which one is it then?
Then you got this like thisforeign wife.
but then you got Ezra Nehemiah.
that's all about like doingaway with foreign wives, And
it's all there in the sacredtext, sitting side by side, And
what do you do with that?
Or, most of us seem to shut oureyes to it.
Dennis Drake (38:22):
Well, and to me, you know, there I've just found
such comfort in going.
Well, like you know, if I wereto approach it as a legal
document, there's some holes init.
You know, if I were to approachit as this rule book, that's
absolute and it's not consistentat times And it's not all
(38:48):
encompassing, for sure You know.
So, you know, is it a fable?
Is it a useless thing?
Is it just some literature?
You know, i believe it's somuch more, and so, and to find
its value in the fact that, forme, what it done, what dawned on
(39:10):
me the other day, was soprofound, because I'm literally
in a struggle with this, youknow, as we speak, and I thought
to myself, you know, as afundamentalist, at one point in
my life I found everything Ineeded in the Bible, and
atheists find everything thatthey need to believe, what they
believe in the Bible.
You know what I mean.
(39:31):
And well, look there, i foundit in the Bible and that's proof
for my case.
And so I thought, i thought, itrose up in me.
That is a supernatural book If afundamentalist can be satisfied
with it and an atheist can besatisfied with it, and a person
(39:52):
who believes that it is nothingmore than literature or any one
of the.
So the book is a supernaturalbook and that is profound to me.
And so, as a supernatural book,if something glowing fell from
the sky and we were confidentthat was a UFO that wasn't, i
(40:12):
would approach it differentlythan if, you know, i dropped
your cell phone.
I know what to do with aniPhone.
You know I would approach thatextraterrestrial thing with.
Let's find out what it has forme, not what I can tell, because
I can tell my iPhone what Ineeded to do.
Google, dan Allen.
Brad Nelson (40:31):
There's a book on it, you can be told Yeah, yeah.
Dennis Drake (40:34):
Just a while, while the other person's talking
.
Brad Nelson (40:35):
Yeah.
Dennis Drake (40:36):
I mean I can control that, and so we've
approached the Bible in thatsense of I can control it.
And so then we have.
We've been Bible benders andwe've done this, but to me I'm
just delighting in approachingit as that supernatural book
that that's going to speak to me, that's going to maybe read me,
and that word wasn't originalwith me.
(40:56):
I heard someone say that likelet the book read you, and
Heather, just you know, quotedthere a moment ago.
But in that there is a lot oflife for me there.
Heather Drake (41:08):
And, i think, the invitation to allow spirit to
re-enchant the text for us whenwe've been told it's
encyclopedia.
Let it be an entrance into themystery.
Dennis Drake (41:19):
And who was it that said that of a Christian
that you'll either become amystic or not?
Brad Nelson (41:27):
Oh, it was a Catholic writer, yeah.
Heather Drake (41:29):
I think he's for it Right in the middle of my
tongue, carl Ronner.
Yes, you either become a mysticor nothing at all.
Dennis Drake (41:36):
Yeah, and to me, i have found the fundamentalist
kind of a Christian who's justgoing to flat, bury their head
in the sand.
They believed it when they werea kid, they're going to believe
it now and they're always goingto believe it And they're not.
But anyone who's progressing isgoing to find some struggles,
(41:57):
going to find some things thatyou're just not settling.
Not in that you're abandoningChrist, but I just mean that,
like the walk is just not, thethings that made sense to you as
a younger person are not goingto make sense anymore.
And so in me being fullyengulfed in that phase of my
(42:19):
walk, i'm not turning away, yeah, and I see why people do,
because they have thoseinconsistencies and those things
that are probably not going tobe answered on this side of
glory or whatever.
You know that you kind of justyou bury your head in the sand
or, but I'm still curious, youknow, and I'm just I think, and
(42:42):
I think design in my design, andso if you're not going to walk
away, then I think for us tokind of really go.
Well then, what is behind thecurtain?
What is the mystical side ofthis thing?
And that's exciting to mebecause then it has a whole.
I mean it's infinite.
Brad Nelson (43:05):
Yeah, it makes me think of I think of Brian Zond
as somebody who went throughthat process, that growth
process, but he did it in public, Yeah, and his book Water to
Wine is such a helpful.
(43:27):
I almost like a manual forpeople who are going through
that same process And to beginto stick your toes in and wade
out into the mystical.
What does it look like, not totalk to God but to enter a state
(43:47):
of awareness where you areexperiencing the real thing, the
actual presence?
Heather Drake (43:54):
There is this willed form and the idea that
maybe it's not a voice comingoutside of you, into you, but
that you're actually stillenough to hear the voice.
Dennis Drake (44:02):
Well, it's a shame too, because when you say that
I just kind of hear peopleshutting down going well, that's
a heretic, I can't listen tohim or Roar as a heretic or
whatever.
And so for me, I mean, what doyou do with that?
Brad Nelson (44:13):
Well, the best prophet the best prophet?
Dennis Drake (44:14):
I'm not asking people to give up their faith or
to, but you know what, ifthere's something good, you
could find in his teaching and,you know, do we have to like,
imagine you have to like,immediately go.
that's different, that's foreign.
I disagree with that.
So, immediately, that is poisonto us.
And I think that I've met him,i've spoke to him, you know,
(44:36):
face to face with him, and he'sa follower of Christ who is
endeavoring to try to figure itout, you know, and so, and to
admit when he's wrong.
and at this point this is theway he sees it.
And so, to me, i find life inthat, because at every point I
(44:58):
don't want to be judged, as at,you know, is this the moment
when I got to be judged, for Iknow as much Christianity You
know what I mean It's likeyou're kind of on a walk and I
know what I know then and I hadgrace for it.
I know what I know now, but Ithink to me there's got to be
some responsibility for us.
You know, as lifelong learnersand followers, that we're
growing.
Heather Drake (45:18):
Yeah, i get the.
There's an Old Testament storywhere Jacob is wrestling with an
angel and obviously we believeit to be more than angel and
angel of the Lord or apre-Bethlehem appearance of the
Christ, however we describe it.
But he's over and over againasking tell me your name, and he
doesn't get the answer.
I want to know who you are sothat I can know what box to put
you in, so I could put limits onyou and say, okay, that's this
(45:41):
God.
And God denies the request toget and just offers.
And then the beauty of it is Ithink this is where I think a
lot of people are, but in thatI'm not hearing the answer.
But still he claims hisblessing and then in the
claiming of the blessing, it's awrestle And I think that you
had talked about earlier.
(46:02):
Even this idea of anger in theclaiming.
You might end up with a hip outof socket, but you're then.
You're so transformed that whenyour brother sees you he says
oh, i see the face of.
Brad Nelson (46:14):
God Yeah.
Heather Drake (46:15):
So what a beautiful story but, you get.
I'm asking you what's your nameand the answer is I'm not going
to give it to you, yep.
Brad Nelson (46:22):
It's like you will have to enter into the mystery.
Heather Drake (46:24):
Yeah.
Brad Nelson (46:25):
And here's the thing that irritates me I
shouldn't say it quite like that, but it does irritate me is
when you, yeah, when you talkabout like mysticism and like
people who come from thetradition that I came up and get
immediately uncomfortable to me.
That is a okay.
You don't know your own story,because I realize Brian's on
(46:48):
just wrote a book about this notlong ago, but you do realize
the desert fathers and mothersof the third, fourth and fifth
century right, the St John ofthe Cross, teresa of Avila.
We have all these Julian Norwich, these miss, these Christian
mystics.
And gosh, you start going backinto reading some of the Celtic
spirituality and you findoriginal goodness, care for the
(47:13):
earth, the elevation of women.
Oh, wait, a second.
We're not the first ChristianLike we call that progressive
but it's actually ancient.
Yeah.
Dennis Drake (47:22):
I love that you said that.
Thank you so much.
That is so good Yeah.
Heather Drake (47:28):
So then I bring up an ancient prophet who said
stop, stand at the crossroads,ask for the ancient paths, ask
where the good way is, and thereyou will find rest for your
souls.
I think our souls are tired Andso being able to say where's
the rest?
The rest is in the ancientpaths, the rest is in the
invitation to spirit.
And again I keep going back towe've had this conversation over
(47:51):
and over again When Jesusgifted the church its power or
this.
Here's a gifting, here's whatyou're starting on.
He gifted us spirit.
He didn't gift us a text, hegifted us part of himself.
Brad Nelson (48:04):
Yeah, Oh, it's so good.
Dennis Drake (48:07):
Yeah, well, let it transform us, and I think
that's good for today.
Heather Drake (48:13):
Thank you, Brad.
We appreciate you taking timeright out before you.
Dennis Drake (48:17):
Thank you guys, this is way fun, it is isn't it?
Heather Drake (48:19):
Yeah, you've been listening to Season 2 of the So
Much More Podcast with Dennisand Heather Drake.
We want to take a moment andexpress our sincerest thanks for
the investment of your time Andif you're interested in
continuing conversation or moreinformation about what we
discussed, please email us at somuch more podcast at gmailcom.
(48:40):
If you're interested in some ofthe creative projects that
Dennis has done, you can findout more information at
drakinsonscom or find us onTwitter at so much more podcast.
We'd love to hear from you.
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