Have you ever wondered why we cling so tightly to beliefs that no longer serve us? In this episode, we share our personal experiences and insights on this transformative journey, we talk about the pitfall of shame, addiction, offering reflections on how to release ourselves from this self-inflicted torment and cultivate self-love instead.
Have you ever tried to escape your past but found yourself stuck in the trauma? It's a common struggle, and we unpack it in this episode. We explore the link between trauma and the ability to be present, and discuss the importance of professional help in navigating this journey. We also consider the influence of decisions made in moments of trauma and their lasting impact on our self-perception. Wrapping up, we highlight how embracing compassion, love, and understanding can be transformative in our life's journey. Tune in, and let's explore these life-changing perspectives together.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to season two of so Much More, a lifestyle
podcast by Dennis and HeatherDrake.
So much more is a podcast basedon our lives, eclectic and
inspired, one whererelationships are honored and
invested in.
We invite you to join us as wecontinue a lifestyle and a
(00:23):
lifelong discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We knew we were talking about just how sin is,
kind of really more along themissing the mark.
Yeah.
So when you say, how is thereevil in this whole argument
against that, it's like if we dorealize God made us and God is
(00:46):
love not that he does love, buthe is love.
So there's this energy, there'sthis actual, tangible thing,
God's love, and that is us butyet we do these horrific things
to each other and instead of usjust making an assumption, well
then we must be evil, I likethat idea of saying, well, we're
(01:06):
missing the point or the mark,the point, the purpose.
Can you expand on that a littlebit more?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
No, Well, first I want to talk about the fact that
you said the invitation wouldbe just to let loose of
something or let go.
But I just want to tell youthat that's incredibly scary.
If that's the thing that youfeel like has held you this long
, then why would I ever let goof it?
Or even when I don't feel likeI'm living the kind of life I
(01:36):
want?
Giving up a belief is very hardwork.
I think it's what Jesus invitedus into when he invited us into
a new way of thinking, and thatlove could be this new way of
thinking.
But it's very difficult and wedon't want to just assume that
somebody can just hear this onetime and then say, oh, I'm going
(01:59):
to give up anxiety or I'm goingto give up bad ways of thinking
.
But this hope for us in thislearning to actually change the
way that we think is actuallyspending a moment in examining
our own thoughts.
I think for many of us we're onautopilot.
That was set like years ago andwe just kind of find ourselves
in our fifties now and we'relike when did that thought get
(02:19):
put in there and why am I stillallowing that thought to rule me
?
Why am I still giving thatthought so much power and so
paying attention.
I think that's one of thethings that's been so helpful to
me personally withcontemplation and with
contemplative prayers, that ideaof allowing examination to come
even in the way that we think.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, that's a good point too, and I don't mean to
sound flippant in the idea ofjust you know, move on.
You know, but I do.
We were talking about thisearlier because there's this
idea that you know, you do haveto abandon some stuff to embrace
the new thing that God's doingin your life and that's very
(03:03):
scary and difficult, and theonly piece I found is the fact
that when I do surrender somethings to him or allow him to
change my thinking on things,it's I benefited from it.
Now, I don't mean to say thatit was ever easy.
It's a fight.
Every time it seems like towrestle with.
(03:25):
You know, you walk away fromthe wrestle with a limb.
But now that you know, like youknow, leaving the Catholic
Church and going among theProtestants and then being fired
from a couple of churches andreally kind of peeling away not
only from the humiliation oflosing that job, but then maybe
some of the doctrine and some ofthe stuff we believe maybe
isn't totally even scriptural orgodly, you know, and so, but
(03:53):
peeling those things away, Ifeel like I've benefited from
them.
So I think in that way I justpresent to people the idea that,
as difficult as it is the moreyou do that you can at least see
.
You know, I think the guy thatworks out goes.
This is really heavy, but I amseeing gains yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
I would have totally attested.
It's very difficult, right?
I mean, I'm just on a two yearjourney of this, of discovering,
you know, self love, selfcompassion, self gentleness and
kindness, and it's definitelycaused me to show up, to be more
present, to be more loving, tobe more kind and caring to
others.
Because my relationship withmyself most important
relationship that I have thisthing isn't working, then my
(04:33):
relationships with others arenot working.
And, as we think about,absolutely it's scary.
It's so scary that when Jesusshowed up on the scene, they
wanted to, they killed the guyright Because they were so
scared of the teaching of loveand what that might do to
unleash chaos.
if people actually understoodlove instead of rules.
And Jesus over and over againman, you said a mouthful.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Jesus invited us to unlearn the things about God
that we already knew, and thisprocess of unlearning, I think,
is a lifetime, and that is againvery so.
With great compassion, we comealongside of listeners and say
we ourselves know how scary itis to say if I believe this,
(05:19):
what happens if it's not true?
And so for me, a great help hasalways been in these past 30
years of walking out of someways of thinking is will it
allow me to be more loving, andnot only toward myself but
toward the world?
And if the answer is yes Icould be more loving if I wasn't
(05:40):
in such fear of this or if Ididn't have such rigidity around
this then it's worth at leastloosening the grip.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
I'm not willing to say let go of it but maybe not
so tightly.
Yeah, now I was terrified.
There were certain things whereI was like, oh you know, if I
begin to believe that I can lovemyself, ooh, what does that
mean?
And then what am I coming inconflict with?
And then I think what reallyhelped me was I realized that I
was addicted to shame.
Oh wow, I was addicted tobeating myself up.
(06:14):
And as I researched and studiedand looked into addiction and,
of course, my journey on that,not only was there a substance
that I was addicted to, thesubstance was merely there to
help me quiet the internaladdiction that I had.
The internal addiction was tobeat myself up, to shame myself,
and so to go into a new patternwhich said I'm not going to
(06:37):
beat myself up anymore.
And I had to catch that right.
I remember there's this onetime in the shower where I was
you know all of it, you know theshower thoughts and then all of
a sudden it just started comingback in of the thoughts of man,
you're such a mess up and whydo you always do this?
And then I'm remembering thingsfrom when I'm 16 years old.
All of a sudden, and why didyou do that?
And then it just hit me.
It was like the spirit justcame and said you know what your
(07:00):
brain is per producing athought of shame, so that your
body will produce the chemicalsthat make you feel bad about
yourself.
Because that's where your homehas been for 48 years.
For 48 years, your home hasbeen about beating yourself up
and feeling bad about yourself.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
So let me interject here, though.
And so what about when Godfirst talks to Abram and says
leave the land that you know,leave the house that you know?
Leave the family that you know.
Leave everything and come andfollow me.
What does that look like inpracticality for us?
Not hearing God saying leaveher.
But leave shame, leave thatmotivation that makes you think
(07:41):
that somehow you're gonnaproduce a different way of
thinking or a different thoughtif shame is I just have found in
my own life.
Shame is a very poor motivator.
Yes, it is.
It does not have the it's atask method?
Yeah, it doesn't have theeffect that.
I hope that it will.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Right and light bulb moment for me.
On that, the task master was atherapist.
Said to me you think thatpunishment is corrective.
If you just beat the heck outof yourself enough that you'll
change, when really punishmentis not corrective, love and
(08:18):
kindness are corrective.
What does it say?
The goodness or the kindness ofGod is what draws us to that
place of turning our livesaround, of repentance, of change
.
So when we think of repentanceas well, it's just.
I'm sorry I shouldn't have donethat.
When repentance is change,right, it's the process of
identifying a behavior or apattern or a thing that we know
(08:39):
isn't serving well and saying Iwanna change that.
And it is the kindness and thegoodness of God that draws us
into change and intotransformation.
Not beating us up, not beatingyourself up, that's just.
It's the whole thing.
Well, this insanity thing,right?
(09:00):
What's?
the definition of the same thing, just keep trying it over.
Well, after 48 years of beatingmyself up, I thought, yeah,
maybe it's time to try somethingdifferent and really setting
yourself free.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Well, I'd like to talk a little bit about the
practicality of some of thesethings, because I know there's
things that Heather could do tohelp us give us some suggestions
on some reading materials andstuff.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Are you insinuating for books?
I'm insinuating that you liketo read.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Based on my life experience with you and then and
then with Jerry.
You know I've talked about somethings and I'd like to maybe,
if we could stumble onto thisthought of talking about you
know how the mind just workswith the thoughts that we
recognize.
It's a machine, just like yourheart beats.
Instead of beating myself upbecause I had that thought of
(09:46):
shame, so I guess it must betrue, or I guess I'm just
worthless because I keep doingthese things Instead of
recognizing.
You know, it is this machinethat I could just reprogram.
I mean, what a powerful.
I like to talk a little bitabout that.
And then, but I also kind of itmade me laugh when you were
talking about, you know thischange, because you and I have
been friends so long that I usedto think our friendship, like
(10:08):
my friendship with you, was likefish, that I can only be in
your house like three days and Istarted stinking or something
because you would either leaveyou know I'm talking about 30
years of friendship because likewe'd hang around for two or
three days and then you weregone.
But I mean, is there somepractical things of?
I mean, wouldn't you look backon that?
Because the reason why I feellike there's such a change is
that I don't know.
(10:29):
About a year ago we were atsomebody's house and it was like
the food never came.
There was a party, but none washappening.
And then they go.
I don't know.
I guess we could go out in thegarage and play darts and then
they started to assemble thedartboard Like this didn't even
exist.
And I'm back in my mind.
I was thinking Jerry's gonnakill me or he's just gonna take
off walking.
You know I'm never gonna seehim again and I even asked you
(10:52):
after that event, like what justhappened.
And you know, because I knowyou, I've known you for 30 years
you do not put up with, youdon't have time for certain
things, and this was felt likethis, almost like a waste of
evening, and you had talkedabout embracing talk a little
bit about that, just maybe thepracticalities of our mind.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Yeah, I think there were so many steps that had
happened and it absolutelystarted with self love, right,
and I know that that is aresistance point for many.
It was a resistance point forme because of my belief system
and my shame that I grew up inand the way that I attached to
certain belief systems, even inthe Christian faith I gravitated
towards those.
But my behavior before to wantto stay active or to leave, or
(11:37):
now I'm not doing that was I wastrying to distract myself from
myself, right and so and thevoices inside of myself of you
know I'm wasting time.
I should be doing something,because me just being present
isn't good enough.
I have to be functioning andproducing in order to justify my
existence, right, and sothere's this busyness that we do
(11:58):
that keeps us externallyfocused and keeps us from going
inward to look at our you knowactivity inside the messages
that we're telling ourselves.
So that was a key turning point.
And the second was practicingpresence, to be able to be in
the moment and really keep thechatter of my brain, because I
(12:19):
realized that the only momentthat exists is this moment.
Right now, we're doing thispodcast.
This is all exists, right, mypast is a memory.
My future is a worry right or avision or a dream.
It doesn't exist yet.
The past doesn't exist anymore.
And so if I could figure out tobe present in this moment, I
(12:39):
would give myself the gift ofexperiencing life and just let
it show up as it's showing up.
But it also allowed me toexamine and get in touch with,
well, what am I feeling and whyam I thinking that, and why do I
wanna be so distracted andactive?
And then that, of course, led meto being able to identify the
thoughts that I was having andthe realization that, yeah, my
(13:02):
thoughts are not me.
I mean, that was a huge thing,huge revelation for me, because
one of Shane's greatest powers,I call it.
It's a parasite that tricks thehost into thinking that the
host, it almost like, takes overyour body and your brain.
It's parasite that comes in andgoes no, not, you don't have
(13:23):
shame, you are shame, you areshameful, there's something
wrong with you.
And so, as I really begin to go, oh, I'm not shame, I've
carried shame, and that removedthe shame in shame, in some
sense, and then, realizing thatI'm not, my thoughts removed the
(13:44):
over-identification and theshame attached to the thoughts
that I was having.
They go well, because I hadthat thought.
That must be who I am and mybrain, like my heart, is an
organ that serves a certainfunction.
There's chemicals going on upthere, there's neurons and paths
that I've carved for years, andso the happy path is gonna kick
(14:04):
a thought up that makes meproduce chemicals, makes me feel
a certain way and I go, oh, ifI'm not my thoughts, I don't
have to identify with them.
I can begin to work on them andI can reduce the power of those
thoughts and the shame of thatas the me that I say I'm right.
Even we think about that inyour spirit that lives in a body
(14:28):
that has a soul, right, andthat soul or that mind piece of
us that functions.
But we over-identify with ourthoughts.
We think we are our thoughts,but as we free ourselves from
the concept of being ourthoughts, that then says, yeah,
my heart beats and it pumpsblood, but I wouldn't say I am
the organ of my heart on theorgan of my liver.
(14:48):
Now, that's a piece of me thatfunctions and my brain is there
to serve me, but it's not me.
And what that did for me,practically, was to be able to
examine what I was thinking andbelieving, question it and not.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Now you're meddling, Jerry.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
You should ask people to question things.
The faith is blind belief.
You don't have it.
Ask any questions you don't useyour intellect, you don't use
anything like that.
You just do what you're told.
And now to say as an adult, asa maturing person, we should
question what.
This is where we enter thephase of heresy.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Right, right.
Well, now the good news is theythought Jesus was heretic.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
They did.
Some of the best people areheretic.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And that's what's been interesting about Spend a
Time with Jerry, because therest of that story was that I'm
in the car, like going after weleft that house.
What's going on?
Because you definitely acteddifferent than I had ever seen
you act before and we talkedabout your ability to just be
present and how you actuallyenjoyed that night Because you
(15:55):
observed yourself and the peoplethere and just you're able to
be present.
And so think about thatconstant.
I've met people that areliterally just not comfortable
in their own skin, like you cansense it on them.
They're such an awkwardness,and I think that this whole,
(16:16):
where this leads, is in lovingyourself, is to realize we are
as God made us, and so I'm notso disappointed like constantly
got a whittle something off ofme or to be tolerated by him,
but that I'm loved just as I am,of course, that we're all
growing in this process, butjust in that place where, if
(16:37):
it's okay right now, then Icould just be here with my kids,
with my spouse, with my friends.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
I wanna go back to what you had just said there,
because I think it's importantfor us to remember that growth
is expected of us, like that'ssomething that we need to
participate in, that's what allof us is.
But love needs to be out of theequation where if I don't do
this, then love will be withheldor I won't experience love the
same way that that we understandthat that love is the
(17:06):
non-negotiable.
God is love.
God is present with us.
Love will always be here.
Now, how people experience usbecause of our own ideas and
thoughts and behaviors, that isup to us, but not that we are
loved.
We are loved is settled, infact, in the message translation
.
It says that before the earthwas formed, god had us in mind
(17:28):
and had settled on us to be theobject of his affection, that we
would be made whole and holy byhis love.
And this idea that wholenesscomes to us when we fully
embrace the love that is alreadygiven.
And this idea that wholenessdoesn't come when we finally
figure out or I like thatimagery that you had like I have
(17:48):
to whittle some bad parts of meaway in order to be loved or
surrendered those bad parts,this idea of that there is so
much good that can come when weaccept love and love's embrace
and the story that love istelling of us.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
You know it's interesting you're talking about
.
Growth is kind of we shouldexpect it, you know, and it
should be something that you andI should want for ourselves.
But growth is a funny thing.
It's more of a naturalprogression of our humanity.
It's like something built intothe universe.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Right, yeah, in plants and trees.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
It's the weirdest thing for me to see this,
because I'm up from Illinoiswhere that soil is so rich and
beautiful, and I'm here inFlorida.
It's just sand, yet my yard hasto grow something.
I mean you could do nothing tomy yard and still there's weeds
and flowers and all kinds ofstuff growing and all kinds of
you know.
So it's kind of woven into thefabric of the world that we're
(18:54):
in and I think for us?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
And what is growth except for cycles of death and
resurrection?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well, that's so good there, but I just wanna say that
growth is like this requirementof you to produce.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
No thank you, I mean I sow the seeds, or I water.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
but the reality is this growth happens despite all
circumstances around here inFlorida Stuff's growing, you
know, and so I think that therebecomes that.
I think within many of ourspirituality there's a concept
that I have got to get to work,yeah right.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Yeah, well, you just planted a tree out front, yeah.
And so you're going out andyelling at that tree and saying,
grow, come on.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
We're measuring it every day.
Measuring it every day or bedisappointed that it's not a
tree Disappointed and you starthitting it with a board to say
come on, grow.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
I'm gonna beat you till you grow and I'm gonna yell
at you till you grow.
And instead, what do you do?
You're gentle with it, youwater it, you're kind to it.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And you're patient.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
You're patient with it.
You realize what's blocking it,getting in the way of its
growth.
Does it need more of this ormore of that?
And I think why do we treatourselves differently?
That growth will be a naturaloutcome of the way and we will
grow in our lives.
What we give attention to, yeah, so yeah, it's an interesting
(20:19):
thing.
I mean we're talking I think itwas today about the process of
healing our lives.
To be healed it's really.
Healing is about growing,growing out of a behavior or
going into new belief systems,and God's not afraid of our
questions.
We're afraid of our questionsand I think God invites those
(20:40):
questions for us to struggle, towrestle.
I mean the whole title of thispodcast right.
So much more God is so muchmore than what I could ever
bucket God in in my mind I betyou.
I'm so much more and you're somuch more.
We're all so much more than theway that we view ourselves and
we think about our kids.
(21:01):
What parent does not want theirchild to love themselves, to
speak kindly about themselves?
I mean, it's somethingdysfunctional if you don't want
that right, we would define thatas a dysfunctional household or
relationship.
So maybe not every parent doesthat, but it would be a
dysfunctional situation.
Why would God take any pleasurein us not loving ourselves as
(21:22):
His children, as God's children?
But yeah, I do, because thereis this thing of well, if I love
myself and I'm easy on myselfand I'm not like beating myself
up, am I really gonna change orgrow?
Well, maybe try an experiment.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I think I'm kind of Because that other one hasn't
been working.
Yeah right, yeah thisexperiment.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
But it's hard to let go of that when everything tells
us that that was the way.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Right, yes.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
We have a lot of practice on that kind of shame
and one of the places that Ihave found that helps in a
practical way with shame isbeing able to tell stories in
safe places.
Yes, and being able to behonest, and I think that one of
the things that Jesus had askedus to do I think sometimes we
(22:06):
get there's been a bigmisunderstanding, but one of the
things that Jesus asked us todo is be His witness.
Be my witness here, be mywitness.
And how do you witnesssomething?
You are present, you payattention, right, and this
invitation to paying attentionand to being present to what the
(22:27):
divine is doing even in our ownlife, to bear witnesses, to be
present Look at this, see this,and that invitation is filled
with so much hope.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah that I mean that's a powerful truth, because
a lot of people would take thatas that.
I gotta memorize the Romansroad and I've got to preach to
somebody to be a witness.
But a witness is like if I wasa witness to an auto accident I
would just tell you what I saw.
And I think that we have missedbeing present and observing
(23:00):
what he's doing and just sharethat, and we've replaced it with
well, I better, you know, juiceit up a little bit, or even in
the invitation is not always tothen speak, you know, to stand
in front of the jury and saywhat you witnessed.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
But for our own faith , for our own hope to be able to
witness that kind of continuedcompassion or that continued
resurrection, of things.
And what that does for us thisbe my witnesses is this practice
of presence.
Will you pay attention?
Right here, right now, I meanJesus in his absolute agony,
asked will you be with me?
(23:35):
And sometimes that's the bestthing that we can do, when we
ourselves are suffering or whensomeone else is suffering, is
just be present, be fully awake,stay awake and don't allow
ourselves to numb out of whetherit's painful, whether it's
joyful, whether it feels good orwhether it feels treacherous,
but not allow ourselves tochoose a way that numbs any
(24:00):
experience that we're having.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I'd like to talk a little bit more about that being
present, because you know youalluded to that, heather, and I
always talk about.
You know it's the painful pastor the fearful future, right,
and a lot of people live in thatpainful past, the things that
happened to them, the trauma andall those things, and it seems
to be intruding.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Can you pause for a minute just there?
I know you'd lose that, but wewanna be really careful that
people's trauma matters andtheir pain matters, and we're
not saying that, oh, it's just atrauma for you that it
genuinely makes such a big deal,and so the invitation is to
honor that pain, to honor thattrauma, but to allow a new story
to be written or a newperspective to be seen or a new
(24:46):
witness to be had, and so I justwanna be really mindful of that
.
Well, yeah, when people haveexperienced that, it matters.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Because you know we had those things.
We don't get past them Right,and so you kind of live in that
trauma.
And so you know, that's kind ofthe point the fearful future is.
Typically we imagine all thehorrible things that could
happen and try to have faith forwhat?
But you know, typically we lieto ourselves what we really are,
(25:18):
we are afraid of what wouldhappen, and so we live in that
constant fear of not havingenough or whatever, or we're
stuck trapped in, and I'm in noways saying that either one of
these things are easy to breakfrom, but I do believe that the
offer from God is for us to justbe present.
(25:39):
I mean, it's cliche, but thepresent is the gift, right, but
it's like if I wasn't trappedwith my trauma and now I'm never
really living a full life andI'm never breaking free from
that thing that happened to me,or I'm so afraid of what might
happen.
So I do want us to talk alittle bit about that being what
(26:01):
a gift it is to be present,because I've been around my kids
for years, but have I beenfully present for them, or my
wife, or my job, or the peoplethat I say, that I love?
Speaker 4 (26:14):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So for me, this trauma andpresence are.
For me, we're very linkedtogether.
It was difficult for me to bepresent because of my trauma.
So, as a child physical abuse,sexual abuse, mental abuse, 17
(26:36):
different schools growing upit's just not a good environment
, which many people have had,that story, living in poverty,
all of the things.
And it wasn't third worldpoverty, but it was welfare
system, wondering if you'regonna get food, having your mom
having to shop, lift groceriesin order to feed you.
So there was a lot of traumathat was present in my life and
(26:58):
so my method of surviving thattrauma was to disassociate, at
times, right To not be presentbecause the present moment was
very unsafe.
So a lot of times a copingmechanism for trauma is to not
be present, to get in our minds,to go off somewhere, to create
fantasy, little worlds thatwe're in and we just detach.
(27:21):
And so for me, learning and thatwas why my behavior was so
unprecedented in my life,because it was just a learned
behavior.
And so as I sat and would sitwith centering prayer,
templative prayer, it was arewiring because all of those
things would start to come upagain and I just wanted to get
(27:43):
up and go get distracted again.
And I think that some of thepeople listening to this like,
yeah, I try to do those thingsor I try to be present, but then
all the stuff starts to come upand then I need to distract
myself again.
But what I did was I forcedmyself to sit and I forced
myself to examine and to witness, painfully at times, and ask
(28:05):
the question and observe whatwas coming up, because what we
don't allow to come up or toobserve never gets healed,
because it stays buried and it'swanting to come up, and those
when your mind is throwing up athought of your past or a
traumatic event, and I gotta sayif it's a highly traumatic
event, it's difficult.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Therapy is a complete gift Get a therapist absolutely
.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Get a therapist.
A professional help served mewell.
I've been in it for two yearsnow and I'm gonna keep on doing
it.
My therapist keeps telling me Ithink you're good and I'm like
no, I'm not good you don't knowyet.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
What do you know Really?
A past.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I'm working on this?
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Are you new here?
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Yeah, I'm not Right and so get that help, because
that stuff comes up.
We don't know how to deal withit, and so, as we do, but as we
do recognize that our bodies andour minds are trying to serve
us by bringing up those memories, it's like I want you to deal
with this, I want you to healthis pain, and we often think of
(29:04):
everything in a spiritual lens.
Right, I just want God to fixthat.
Well, we're spiritual beingsliving in a body and this body
has a certain way of healing thetrauma that's been stored in us
.
Right, there's a great bookcalled the Body Keeps the Score,
and trauma gets stored in thebody, and so the body has a
mechanism of healing that trauma.
And so, as the in the mind andthe soul and God and all of that
(29:27):
together, but as it comes upand we witness it and observe it
and go, what is that trying totell me?
It wants to be dealt with, andI would sit with it and I would
understand sorry, I'm going onto this for a little bit,
because it's been such apowerful, transformative thing
for me is that what I wouldunderstand is that when a
traumatic moment happened, Imade a decision.
(29:49):
In that moment, I decided thingsabout the person who was giving
me trauma, but then I pushedthat decision out to other
people.
I made certain decisions aboutmyself and I made decisions
about life.
And a traumatic event canhappen, two people can
experience it and they'll comeout with two different sets of
meanings, two different sets ofdecisions.
(30:10):
The decisions I made in themeaning I gave, was that I was
powerless, I was worthless, andso those were decisions that I
made in a moment of trauma andthat carried with me and
continued to show up in my lifeas my behavior.
And so when we look at atraumatic moment go, I made a
(30:31):
certain decision about myself.
Somebody could have a traumaticexperience and go, you know
what it empowers.
They could experience a painfulmoment.
Instead of becoming a highlytraumatic moment, it might even
become an empowering moment forthem.
And when we think about thejust the Victor Frankl's book,
right, and what he was able toteach us about meaning and
(30:53):
purpose and how we define what'shappening to us.
So, but if people are having adifficult time being present and
it's these things are coming up, I just wanna encourage you.
That's normal.
I think that's natural and it'snot something to shame yourself
and say I'm never gonna be ableto get there.
It's a process.
And then, once I was able toreally force myself to sit
(31:15):
through all of that, observewhat was coming up, ask what I
needed, what I was trying totalk to myself about or
understand, and even bring intothe presence of the divine, it
began to heal.
And as those pieces began toheal, I didn't need to run from
myself anymore.
I could be with myself, and ifI'm unable to be with myself, I
(31:39):
can't be present.
And so learning to be withourselves, back to loving
ourselves, allows us to bepresent, and we're not missing
all of life.
Back to what you were saying.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
I think the beauty of that is when Jesus asks us to
be witnesses, that we wouldwatch again.
I hear the invitation Are youtired, are you worn out, you
burned out on religion?
Come and follow me and I won'tlay anything ill-fitting or
heavy on you.
But this idea of come walk withme, come work with me.
There's a work in learning thisnew way of resting, in the love
(32:12):
that we have and in ourpresence.
But this invitation that if wewitness, how love does it that
we can then make a choice andmake a change.
We don't have to necessarilyrun for something.
We can be compassionate Withourselves while we work through
something or while we wait forthe answer, or while we're in a
process of death andresurrection.
(32:34):
It doesn't cause as muchimpatience or anxiety if we're
aware that this process isNecessary or this process is
holy or the process isinevitable.
We don't fight that as much.
If we practice this, what?
What will come for us if weallow ourselves to witness love?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
You've been listening to season two of the so much
more podcast with Dennis andHeather drink.
We want to take a moment andexpress our sincerest Thanks for
the investment of your time andif you're interested in
continuing conversation or moreinformation about what we
discussed, please email us at somuch more podcast at gmailcom,
(33:15):
and you're interested in some ofthe creative projects that
Dennis has done?
You can find out moreinformation at drakinsonscom or
find us on Twitter at so muchmore podcast.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to season two of so Much More, a lifestyle
podcast by Dennis and HeatherDrake.
So much more is a podcast basedon our lives, eclectic and
inspired, one whererelationships are honored and
invested in.
We invite you to join us as wecontinue a lifestyle and a
(00:23):
lifelong discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We knew we were talking about just how sin is,
kind of really more along themissing the mark.
Yeah.
So when you say, how is thereevil in this whole argument
against that, it's like if we dorealize God made us and God is
(00:46):
love not that he does love, buthe is love.
So there's this energy, there'sthis actual, tangible thing,
God's love, and that is us butyet we do these horrific things
to each other and instead of usjust making an assumption, well
then we must be evil, I likethat idea of saying, well, we're
(01:06):
missing the point or the mark,the point, the purpose.
Can you expand on that a littlebit more?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
No, Well, first I want to talk about the fact that
you said the invitation wouldbe just to let loose of
something or let go.
But I just want to tell youthat that's incredibly scary.
If that's the thing that youfeel like has held you this long
, then why would I ever let goof it?
Or even when I don't feel likeI'm living the kind of life I
(01:36):
want?
Giving up a belief is very hardwork.
I think it's what Jesus invitedus into when he invited us into
a new way of thinking, and thatlove could be this new way of
thinking.
But it's very difficult and wedon't want to just assume that
somebody can just hear this onetime and then say, oh, I'm going
(01:59):
to give up anxiety or I'm goingto give up bad ways of thinking
.
But this hope for us in thislearning to actually change the
way that we think is actuallyspending a moment in examining
our own thoughts.
I think for many of us we're onautopilot.
That was set like years ago andwe just kind of find ourselves
in our fifties now and we'relike when did that thought get
(02:19):
put in there and why am I stillallowing that thought to rule me
?
Why am I still giving thatthought so much power and so
paying attention.
I think that's one of thethings that's been so helpful to
me personally withcontemplation and with
contemplative prayers, that ideaof allowing examination to come
even in the way that we think.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, that's a good point too, and I don't mean to
sound flippant in the idea ofjust you know, move on.
You know, but I do.
We were talking about thisearlier because there's this
idea that you know, you do haveto abandon some stuff to embrace
the new thing that God's doingin your life and that's very
(03:03):
scary and difficult, and theonly piece I found is the fact
that when I do surrender somethings to him or allow him to
change my thinking on things,it's I benefited from it.
Now, I don't mean to say thatit was ever easy.
It's a fight.
Every time it seems like towrestle with.
(03:25):
You know, you walk away fromthe wrestle with a limb.
But now that you know, like youknow, leaving the Catholic
Church and going among theProtestants and then being fired
from a couple of churches andreally kind of peeling away not
only from the humiliation oflosing that job, but then maybe
some of the doctrine and some ofthe stuff we believe maybe
isn't totally even scriptural orgodly, you know, and so, but
(03:53):
peeling those things away, Ifeel like I've benefited from
them.
So I think in that way I justpresent to people the idea that,
as difficult as it is the moreyou do that you can at least see
.
You know, I think the guy thatworks out goes.
This is really heavy, but I amseeing gains yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
I would have totally attested.
It's very difficult, right?
I mean, I'm just on a two yearjourney of this, of discovering,
you know, self love, selfcompassion, self gentleness and
kindness, and it's definitelycaused me to show up, to be more
present, to be more loving, tobe more kind and caring to
others.
Because my relationship withmyself most important
relationship that I have thisthing isn't working, then my
(04:33):
relationships with others arenot working.
And, as we think about,absolutely it's scary.
It's so scary that when Jesusshowed up on the scene, they
wanted to, they killed the guyright Because they were so
scared of the teaching of loveand what that might do to
unleash chaos.
if people actually understoodlove instead of rules.
And Jesus over and over againman, you said a mouthful.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Jesus invited us to unlearn the things about God
that we already knew, and thisprocess of unlearning, I think,
is a lifetime, and that is againvery so.
With great compassion, we comealongside of listeners and say
we ourselves know how scary itis to say if I believe this,
(05:19):
what happens if it's not true?
And so for me, a great help hasalways been in these past 30
years of walking out of someways of thinking is will it
allow me to be more loving, andnot only toward myself but
toward the world?
And if the answer is yes Icould be more loving if I wasn't
(05:40):
in such fear of this or if Ididn't have such rigidity around
this then it's worth at leastloosening the grip.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
I'm not willing to say let go of it but maybe not
so tightly.
Yeah, now I was terrified.
There were certain things whereI was like, oh you know, if I
begin to believe that I can lovemyself, ooh, what does that
mean?
And then what am I coming inconflict with?
And then I think what reallyhelped me was I realized that I
was addicted to shame.
Oh wow, I was addicted tobeating myself up.
(06:14):
And as I researched and studiedand looked into addiction and,
of course, my journey on that,not only was there a substance
that I was addicted to, thesubstance was merely there to
help me quiet the internaladdiction that I had.
The internal addiction was tobeat myself up, to shame myself,
and so to go into a new patternwhich said I'm not going to
(06:37):
beat myself up anymore.
And I had to catch that right.
I remember there's this onetime in the shower where I was
you know all of it, you know theshower thoughts and then all of
a sudden it just started comingback in of the thoughts of man,
you're such a mess up and whydo you always do this?
And then I'm remembering thingsfrom when I'm 16 years old.
All of a sudden, and why didyou do that?
And then it just hit me.
It was like the spirit justcame and said you know what your
(07:00):
brain is per producing athought of shame, so that your
body will produce the chemicalsthat make you feel bad about
yourself.
Because that's where your homehas been for 48 years.
For 48 years, your home hasbeen about beating yourself up
and feeling bad about yourself.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
So let me interject here, though.
And so what about when Godfirst talks to Abram and says
leave the land that you know,leave the house that you know?
Leave the family that you know.
Leave everything and come andfollow me.
What does that look like inpracticality for us?
Not hearing God saying leaveher.
But leave shame, leave thatmotivation that makes you think
(07:41):
that somehow you're gonnaproduce a different way of
thinking or a different thoughtif shame is I just have found in
my own life.
Shame is a very poor motivator.
Yes, it is.
It does not have the it's atask method?
Yeah, it doesn't have theeffect that.
I hope that it will.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
Right and light bulb moment for me.
On that, the task master was atherapist.
Said to me you think thatpunishment is corrective.
If you just beat the heck outof yourself enough that you'll
change, when really punishmentis not corrective, love and
(08:18):
kindness are corrective.
What does it say?
The goodness or the kindness ofGod is what draws us to that
place of turning our livesaround, of repentance, of change
.
So when we think of repentanceas well, it's just.
I'm sorry I shouldn't have donethat.
When repentance is change,right, it's the process of
identifying a behavior or apattern or a thing that we know
(08:39):
isn't serving well and saying Iwanna change that.
And it is the kindness and thegoodness of God that draws us
into change and intotransformation.
Not beating us up, not beatingyourself up, that's just.
It's the whole thing.
Well, this insanity thing,right?
(09:00):
What's?
the definition of the same thing, just keep trying it over.
Well, after 48 years of beatingmyself up, I thought, yeah,
maybe it's time to try somethingdifferent and really setting
yourself free.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Well, I'd like to talk a little bit about the
practicality of some of thesethings, because I know there's
things that Heather could do tohelp us give us some suggestions
on some reading materials andstuff.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Are you insinuating for books?
I'm insinuating that you liketo read.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Based on my life experience with you and then and
then with Jerry.
You know I've talked about somethings and I'd like to maybe,
if we could stumble onto thisthought of talking about you
know how the mind just workswith the thoughts that we
recognize.
It's a machine, just like yourheart beats.
Instead of beating myself upbecause I had that thought of
(09:46):
shame, so I guess it must betrue, or I guess I'm just
worthless because I keep doingthese things Instead of
recognizing.
You know, it is this machinethat I could just reprogram.
I mean, what a powerful.
I like to talk a little bitabout that.
And then, but I also kind of itmade me laugh when you were
talking about, you know thischange, because you and I have
been friends so long that I usedto think our friendship, like
(10:08):
my friendship with you, was likefish, that I can only be in
your house like three days and Istarted stinking or something
because you would either leaveyou know I'm talking about 30
years of friendship because likewe'd hang around for two or
three days and then you weregone.
But I mean, is there somepractical things of?
I mean, wouldn't you look backon that?
Because the reason why I feellike there's such a change is
that I don't know.
(10:29):
About a year ago we were atsomebody's house and it was like
the food never came.
There was a party, but none washappening.
And then they go.
I don't know.
I guess we could go out in thegarage and play darts and then
they started to assemble thedartboard Like this didn't even
exist.
And I'm back in my mind.
I was thinking Jerry's gonnakill me or he's just gonna take
off walking.
You know I'm never gonna seehim again and I even asked you
(10:52):
after that event, like what justhappened.
And you know, because I knowyou, I've known you for 30 years
you do not put up with, youdon't have time for certain
things, and this was felt likethis, almost like a waste of
evening, and you had talkedabout embracing talk a little
bit about that, just maybe thepracticalities of our mind.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Yeah, I think there were so many steps that had
happened and it absolutelystarted with self love, right,
and I know that that is aresistance point for many.
It was a resistance point forme because of my belief system
and my shame that I grew up inand the way that I attached to
certain belief systems, even inthe Christian faith I gravitated
towards those.
But my behavior before to wantto stay active or to leave, or
(11:37):
now I'm not doing that was I wastrying to distract myself from
myself, right and so and thevoices inside of myself of you
know I'm wasting time.
I should be doing something,because me just being present
isn't good enough.
I have to be functioning andproducing in order to justify my
existence, right, and sothere's this busyness that we do
(11:58):
that keeps us externallyfocused and keeps us from going
inward to look at our you knowactivity inside the messages
that we're telling ourselves.
So that was a key turning point.
And the second was practicingpresence, to be able to be in
the moment and really keep thechatter of my brain, because I
(12:19):
realized that the only momentthat exists is this moment.
Right now, we're doing thispodcast.
This is all exists, right, mypast is a memory.
My future is a worry right or avision or a dream.
It doesn't exist yet.
The past doesn't exist anymore.
And so if I could figure out tobe present in this moment, I
(12:39):
would give myself the gift ofexperiencing life and just let
it show up as it's showing up.
But it also allowed me toexamine and get in touch with,
well, what am I feeling and whyam I thinking that, and why do I
wanna be so distracted andactive?
And then that, of course, led meto being able to identify the
thoughts that I was having andthe realization that, yeah, my
(13:02):
thoughts are not me.
I mean, that was a huge thing,huge revelation for me, because
one of Shane's greatest powers,I call it.
It's a parasite that tricks thehost into thinking that the
host, it almost like, takes overyour body and your brain.
It's parasite that comes in andgoes no, not, you don't have
(13:23):
shame, you are shame, you areshameful, there's something
wrong with you.
And so, as I really begin to go, oh, I'm not shame, I've
carried shame, and that removedthe shame in shame, in some
sense, and then, realizing thatI'm not, my thoughts removed the
(13:44):
over-identification and theshame attached to the thoughts
that I was having.
They go well, because I hadthat thought.
That must be who I am and mybrain, like my heart, is an
organ that serves a certainfunction.
There's chemicals going on upthere, there's neurons and paths
that I've carved for years, andso the happy path is gonna kick
(14:04):
a thought up that makes meproduce chemicals, makes me feel
a certain way and I go, oh, ifI'm not my thoughts, I don't
have to identify with them.
I can begin to work on them andI can reduce the power of those
thoughts and the shame of thatas the me that I say I'm right.
Even we think about that inyour spirit that lives in a body
(14:28):
that has a soul, right, andthat soul or that mind piece of
us that functions.
But we over-identify with ourthoughts.
We think we are our thoughts,but as we free ourselves from
the concept of being ourthoughts, that then says, yeah,
my heart beats and it pumpsblood, but I wouldn't say I am
the organ of my heart on theorgan of my liver.
(14:48):
Now, that's a piece of me thatfunctions and my brain is there
to serve me, but it's not me.
And what that did for me,practically, was to be able to
examine what I was thinking andbelieving, question it and not.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Now you're meddling, Jerry.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
You should ask people to question things.
The faith is blind belief.
You don't have it.
Ask any questions you don't useyour intellect, you don't use
anything like that.
You just do what you're told.
And now to say as an adult, asa maturing person, we should
question what.
This is where we enter thephase of heresy.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Right, right.
Well, now the good news is theythought Jesus was heretic.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
They did.
Some of the best people areheretic.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And that's what's been interesting about Spend a
Time with Jerry, because therest of that story was that I'm
in the car, like going after weleft that house.
What's going on?
Because you definitely acteddifferent than I had ever seen
you act before and we talkedabout your ability to just be
present and how you actuallyenjoyed that night Because you
(15:55):
observed yourself and the peoplethere and just you're able to
be present.
And so think about thatconstant.
I've met people that areliterally just not comfortable
in their own skin, like you cansense it on them.
They're such an awkwardness,and I think that this whole,
(16:16):
where this leads, is in lovingyourself, is to realize we are
as God made us, and so I'm notso disappointed like constantly
got a whittle something off ofme or to be tolerated by him,
but that I'm loved just as I am,of course, that we're all
growing in this process, butjust in that place where, if
(16:37):
it's okay right now, then Icould just be here with my kids,
with my spouse, with my friends.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
I wanna go back to what you had just said there,
because I think it's importantfor us to remember that growth
is expected of us, like that'ssomething that we need to
participate in, that's what allof us is.
But love needs to be out of theequation where if I don't do
this, then love will be withheldor I won't experience love the
same way that that we understandthat that love is the
(17:06):
non-negotiable.
God is love.
God is present with us.
Love will always be here.
Now, how people experience usbecause of our own ideas and
thoughts and behaviors, that isup to us, but not that we are
loved.
We are loved is settled, infact, in the message translation
.
It says that before the earthwas formed, god had us in mind
(17:28):
and had settled on us to be theobject of his affection, that we
would be made whole and holy byhis love.
And this idea that wholenesscomes to us when we fully
embrace the love that is alreadygiven.
And this idea that wholenessdoesn't come when we finally
figure out or I like thatimagery that you had like I have
(17:48):
to whittle some bad parts of meaway in order to be loved or
surrendered those bad parts,this idea of that there is so
much good that can come when weaccept love and love's embrace
and the story that love istelling of us.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
You know it's interesting you're talking about
.
Growth is kind of we shouldexpect it, you know, and it
should be something that you andI should want for ourselves.
But growth is a funny thing.
It's more of a naturalprogression of our humanity.
It's like something built intothe universe.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Right, yeah, in plants and trees.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
It's the weirdest thing for me to see this,
because I'm up from Illinoiswhere that soil is so rich and
beautiful, and I'm here inFlorida.
It's just sand, yet my yard hasto grow something.
I mean you could do nothing tomy yard and still there's weeds
and flowers and all kinds ofstuff growing and all kinds of
you know.
So it's kind of woven into thefabric of the world that we're
(18:54):
in and I think for us?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
And what is growth except for cycles of death and
resurrection?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Well, that's so good there, but I just wanna say that
growth is like this requirementof you to produce.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
No thank you, I mean I sow the seeds, or I water.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
but the reality is this growth happens despite all
circumstances around here inFlorida Stuff's growing, you
know, and so I think that therebecomes that.
I think within many of ourspirituality there's a concept
that I have got to get to work,yeah right.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Yeah, well, you just planted a tree out front, yeah.
And so you're going out andyelling at that tree and saying,
grow, come on.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
We're measuring it every day.
Measuring it every day or bedisappointed that it's not a
tree Disappointed and you starthitting it with a board to say
come on, grow.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
I'm gonna beat you till you grow and I'm gonna yell
at you till you grow.
And instead, what do you do?
You're gentle with it, youwater it, you're kind to it.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And you're patient.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
You're patient with it.
You realize what's blocking it,getting in the way of its
growth.
Does it need more of this ormore of that?
And I think why do we treatourselves differently?
That growth will be a naturaloutcome of the way and we will
grow in our lives.
What we give attention to, yeah, so yeah, it's an interesting
(20:19):
thing.
I mean we're talking I think itwas today about the process of
healing our lives.
To be healed it's really.
Healing is about growing,growing out of a behavior or
going into new belief systems,and God's not afraid of our
questions.
We're afraid of our questionsand I think God invites those
(20:40):
questions for us to struggle, towrestle.
I mean the whole title of thispodcast right.
So much more God is so muchmore than what I could ever
bucket God in in my mind I betyou.
I'm so much more and you're somuch more.
We're all so much more than theway that we view ourselves and
we think about our kids.
(21:01):
What parent does not want theirchild to love themselves, to
speak kindly about themselves?
I mean, it's somethingdysfunctional if you don't want
that right, we would define thatas a dysfunctional household or
relationship.
So maybe not every parent doesthat, but it would be a
dysfunctional situation.
Why would God take any pleasurein us not loving ourselves as
(21:22):
His children, as God's children?
But yeah, I do, because thereis this thing of well, if I love
myself and I'm easy on myselfand I'm not like beating myself
up, am I really gonna change orgrow?
Well, maybe try an experiment.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I think I'm kind of Because that other one hasn't
been working.
Yeah right, yeah thisexperiment.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
But it's hard to let go of that when everything tells
us that that was the way.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Right, yes.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
We have a lot of practice on that kind of shame
and one of the places that Ihave found that helps in a
practical way with shame isbeing able to tell stories in
safe places.
Yes, and being able to behonest, and I think that one of
the things that Jesus had askedus to do I think sometimes we
(22:06):
get there's been a bigmisunderstanding, but one of the
things that Jesus asked us todo is be His witness.
Be my witness here, be mywitness.
And how do you witnesssomething?
You are present, you payattention, right, and this
invitation to paying attentionand to being present to what the
(22:27):
divine is doing even in our ownlife, to bear witnesses, to be
present Look at this, see this,and that invitation is filled
with so much hope.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah that I mean that's a powerful truth, because
a lot of people would take thatas that.
I gotta memorize the Romansroad and I've got to preach to
somebody to be a witness.
But a witness is like if I wasa witness to an auto accident I
would just tell you what I saw.
And I think that we have missedbeing present and observing
(23:00):
what he's doing and just sharethat, and we've replaced it with
well, I better, you know, juiceit up a little bit, or even in
the invitation is not always tothen speak, you know, to stand
in front of the jury and saywhat you witnessed.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
But for our own faith , for our own hope to be able to
witness that kind of continuedcompassion or that continued
resurrection, of things.
And what that does for us thisbe my witnesses is this practice
of presence.
Will you pay attention?
Right here, right now, I meanJesus in his absolute agony,
asked will you be with me?
(23:35):
And sometimes that's the bestthing that we can do, when we
ourselves are suffering or whensomeone else is suffering, is
just be present, be fully awake,stay awake and don't allow
ourselves to numb out of whetherit's painful, whether it's
joyful, whether it feels good orwhether it feels treacherous,
but not allow ourselves tochoose a way that numbs any
(24:00):
experience that we're having.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
I'd like to talk a little bit more about that being
present, because you know youalluded to that, heather, and I
always talk about.
You know it's the painful pastor the fearful future, right,
and a lot of people live in thatpainful past, the things that
happened to them, the trauma andall those things, and it seems
to be intruding.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Can you pause for a minute just there?
I know you'd lose that, but wewanna be really careful that
people's trauma matters andtheir pain matters, and we're
not saying that, oh, it's just atrauma for you that it
genuinely makes such a big deal,and so the invitation is to
honor that pain, to honor thattrauma, but to allow a new story
to be written or a newperspective to be seen or a new
(24:46):
witness to be had, and so I justwanna be really mindful of that
.
Well, yeah, when people haveexperienced that, it matters.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Because you know we had those things.
We don't get past them Right,and so you kind of live in that
trauma.
And so you know, that's kind ofthe point the fearful future is.
Typically we imagine all thehorrible things that could
happen and try to have faith forwhat?
But you know, typically we lieto ourselves what we really are,
(25:18):
we are afraid of what wouldhappen, and so we live in that
constant fear of not havingenough or whatever, or we're
stuck trapped in, and I'm in noways saying that either one of
these things are easy to breakfrom, but I do believe that the
offer from God is for us to justbe present.
(25:39):
I mean, it's cliche, but thepresent is the gift, right, but
it's like if I wasn't trappedwith my trauma and now I'm never
really living a full life andI'm never breaking free from
that thing that happened to me,or I'm so afraid of what might
happen.
So I do want us to talk alittle bit about that being what
(26:01):
a gift it is to be present,because I've been around my kids
for years, but have I beenfully present for them, or my
wife, or my job, or the peoplethat I say, that I love?
Speaker 4 (26:14):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So for me, this trauma andpresence are.
For me, we're very linkedtogether.
It was difficult for me to bepresent because of my trauma.
So, as a child physical abuse,sexual abuse, mental abuse, 17
(26:36):
different schools growing upit's just not a good environment
, which many people have had,that story, living in poverty,
all of the things.
And it wasn't third worldpoverty, but it was welfare
system, wondering if you'regonna get food, having your mom
having to shop, lift groceriesin order to feed you.
So there was a lot of traumathat was present in my life and
(26:58):
so my method of surviving thattrauma was to disassociate, at
times, right To not be presentbecause the present moment was
very unsafe.
So a lot of times a copingmechanism for trauma is to not
be present, to get in our minds,to go off somewhere, to create
fantasy, little worlds thatwe're in and we just detach.
(27:21):
And so for me, learning and thatwas why my behavior was so
unprecedented in my life,because it was just a learned
behavior.
And so as I sat and would sitwith centering prayer,
templative prayer, it was arewiring because all of those
things would start to come upagain and I just wanted to get
(27:43):
up and go get distracted again.
And I think that some of thepeople listening to this like,
yeah, I try to do those thingsor I try to be present, but then
all the stuff starts to come upand then I need to distract
myself again.
But what I did was I forcedmyself to sit and I forced
myself to examine and to witness, painfully at times, and ask
(28:05):
the question and observe whatwas coming up, because what we
don't allow to come up or toobserve never gets healed,
because it stays buried and it'swanting to come up, and those
when your mind is throwing up athought of your past or a
traumatic event, and I gotta sayif it's a highly traumatic
event, it's difficult.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Therapy is a complete gift Get a therapist absolutely
.
Speaker 4 (28:28):
Get a therapist.
A professional help served mewell.
I've been in it for two yearsnow and I'm gonna keep on doing
it.
My therapist keeps telling me Ithink you're good and I'm like
no, I'm not good you don't knowyet.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
What do you know Really?
A past.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I'm working on this?
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Are you new here?
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Yeah, I'm not Right and so get that help, because
that stuff comes up.
We don't know how to deal withit, and so, as we do, but as we
do recognize that our bodies andour minds are trying to serve
us by bringing up those memories, it's like I want you to deal
with this, I want you to healthis pain, and we often think of
(29:04):
everything in a spiritual lens.
Right, I just want God to fixthat.
Well, we're spiritual beingsliving in a body and this body
has a certain way of healing thetrauma that's been stored in us
.
Right, there's a great bookcalled the Body Keeps the Score,
and trauma gets stored in thebody, and so the body has a
mechanism of healing that trauma.
And so, as the in the mind andthe soul and God and all of that
(29:27):
together, but as it comes upand we witness it and observe it
and go, what is that trying totell me?
It wants to be dealt with, andI would sit with it and I would
understand sorry, I'm going onto this for a little bit,
because it's been such apowerful, transformative thing
for me is that what I wouldunderstand is that when a
traumatic moment happened, Imade a decision.
(29:49):
In that moment, I decided thingsabout the person who was giving
me trauma, but then I pushedthat decision out to other
people.
I made certain decisions aboutmyself and I made decisions
about life.
And a traumatic event canhappen, two people can
experience it and they'll comeout with two different sets of
meanings, two different sets ofdecisions.
(30:10):
The decisions I made in themeaning I gave, was that I was
powerless, I was worthless, andso those were decisions that I
made in a moment of trauma andthat carried with me and
continued to show up in my lifeas my behavior.
And so when we look at atraumatic moment go, I made a
(30:31):
certain decision about myself.
Somebody could have a traumaticexperience and go, you know
what it empowers.
They could experience a painfulmoment.
Instead of becoming a highlytraumatic moment, it might even
become an empowering moment forthem.
And when we think about thejust the Victor Frankl's book,
right, and what he was able toteach us about meaning and
(30:53):
purpose and how we define what'shappening to us.
So, but if people are having adifficult time being present and
it's these things are coming up, I just wanna encourage you.
That's normal.
I think that's natural and it'snot something to shame yourself
and say I'm never gonna be ableto get there.
It's a process.
And then, once I was able toreally force myself to sit
(31:15):
through all of that, observewhat was coming up, ask what I
needed, what I was trying totalk to myself about or
understand, and even bring intothe presence of the divine, it
began to heal.
And as those pieces began toheal, I didn't need to run from
myself anymore.
I could be with myself, and ifI'm unable to be with myself, I
(31:39):
can't be present.
And so learning to be withourselves, back to loving
ourselves, allows us to bepresent, and we're not missing
all of life.
Back to what you were saying.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
I think the beauty of that is when Jesus asks us to
be witnesses, that we wouldwatch again.
I hear the invitation Are youtired, are you worn out, you
burned out on religion?
Come and follow me and I won'tlay anything ill-fitting or
heavy on you.
But this idea of come walk withme, come work with me.
There's a work in learning thisnew way of resting, in the love
(32:12):
that we have and in ourpresence.
But this invitation that if wewitness, how love does it that
we can then make a choice andmake a change.
We don't have to necessarilyrun for something.
We can be compassionate Withourselves while we work through
something or while we wait forthe answer, or while we're in a
process of death andresurrection.
(32:34):
It doesn't cause as muchimpatience or anxiety if we're
aware that this process isNecessary or this process is
holy or the process isinevitable.
We don't fight that as much.
If we practice this, what?
What will come for us if weallow ourselves to witness love?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
You've been listening to season two of the so much
more podcast with Dennis andHeather drink.
We want to take a moment andexpress our sincerest Thanks for
the investment of your time andif you're interested in
continuing conversation or moreinformation about what we
discussed, please email us at somuch more podcast at gmailcom,
(33:15):
and you're interested in some ofthe creative projects that
Dennis has done?
You can find out moreinformation at drakinsonscom or
find us on Twitter at so muchmore podcast.
We'd love to hear from you.
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